234 replies to this topic

[corkob]

Does anybody know the course for the Lorient to Galway leg? Do they have to pass inside the Fastnet Rock?

[Icedtea]

Think they go outside, thinking About taking a RIB out?

Seriously considering it

[corkob]

On the last tv update they seemed to show that there is a turning mark off the south coast. Can't find any sailing instructions yet though.

[corkob]

Just found this. Looks like the Fastnet Rock is a mark.
http://www.galwaytou...ace-galway.html

[schakel]

Hate to disappoint you but in the description of the VOR nothing is said about Fastnet rock as waypoint.
http://www.volvoocea...eg-9_page1.html

Here is the overview map of the leg (attachment 1)
Here is the global position of Fastnet rock as in the Fastnet race. (Attachment 2)
They pass Fastnet rock closely when heading to Galway but it's not obligated.

Attached Files

•  Ireland%20to%20France%20Map.gif   14.86K   41 downloads
•  fastnet_cowes_plymouth_yacht_race_map.gif   8.6K   43 downloads

[GnarlyItWas]

Why does the the VOR website scoreboard show tele 4th and Camper 3rd on equal points. Does it not count back to who has one more stuff ?

[corkob]

Play the YouTube race route animation near the bottom of the web page. It shows a gate in the vicinity of the Fastnet.

Hate to disappoint you but in the description of the VOR nothing is said about Fastnet rock as waypoint.
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/schedule/html_18_Leg-9_page1.html

Here is the overview map of the leg (attachment 1)
Here is the global position of Fastnet rock as in the Fastnet race. (Attachment 2)
They pass Fastnet rock closely when heading to Galway but it's not obligated.

[corkob]

I mean this one

[Vincent]

Why does the the VOR website scoreboard show tele 4th and Camper 3rd on equal points. Does it not count back to who has one more stuff ?

Apparently when tied teams are ranked on their last result. Well that's what they seem to say in an article on the french edition of the VOR site.

[nkb]

Announced on local radio this morning, 45000 visitors to Lorient VOR race village over the weekend.

[umpire]

Announced on local radio this morning, 45000 visitors to Lorient VOR race village over the weekend.

Think what it will be like next weekend!

[Tunnel Rat]

Does anybody know the course for the Lorient to Galway leg? Do they have to pass inside the Fastnet Rock?

The extact details of the course will be posted HERE before the start. You can see the details of the last leg Lisbon to Lorient still there.

[Terrorvision]

Announced on local radio this morning, 45000 visitors to Lorient VOR race village over the weekend.

Think what it will be like next weekend!

Look at any pictures from the start of the RdR to get an idea!

[schakel]

I mean this one

You mean around 3:33 they round Fastnet-rock in the demo. True...
But not necessary according to my first link

Quoted from Source: http://www.volvoocea...eg-9_page1.html
(the official route description for visitors of the Volvo Ocean Race Website.)
"Preview


485 nautical miles (558 miles, 898 kilometres)

The race’s final sprint from France to Ireland takes the fleet on a predominantly coastal course: first north along the shores of western Brittany, then across the English Channel and up the prehistoric south coast of Ireland to the finish line in Galway.

Short as it is compared to the preceding legs, this final passage is fraught with obstacles to be negotiated including commercial shipping lanes and rocky outcrops, as well as a seemingly endless series of headlands and major tidal gates. Added to this is the potential for rapidly changing weather conditions, which will keep the crews on their toes as they battle their way to the finish line in Galway."


Perhaps the skippers get another description. Any way..
We'll see don't we. A photo of any ship around Fastnet rock sure looks good above the fireplace.
Remember this one?

Attached Files

•  Rambler-Yacht-rounds-Fastnet-Rock.jpg   71.42K   83 downloads

[Pierre S]

[
Quoted from Source: http://www.volvoocea...eg-9_page1.html
(the official route description for visitors of the Volvo Ocean Race Website.)
"Preview


485 nautical miles (558 miles, 898 kilometres)

The race's final sprint from France to Ireland takes the fleet on a predominantly coastal course: first north along the shores of western Brittany, then across the English Channel and up the prehistoric south coast of Ireland to the finish line in Galway.

Short as it is compared to the preceding legs, this final passage is fraught with obstacles to be negotiated including commercial shipping lanes and rocky outcrops, as well as a seemingly endless series of headlands and major tidal gates. Added to this is the potential for rapidly changing weather conditions, which will keep the crews on their toes as they battle their way to the finish line in Galway."

What on earth is a "prehistoric south coast"? How is the Irish south coast more prehistoric than other coasts in W. Europe? You've gotta wonder what goes through the mind of whoever writes this drivel at VOR.

[Pierre S]

Does anybody have any insights into Telefónica's rudder conundrum? They have now broken or lost all their rudders and designated replacement rudders, and the notice of race is apparently quite strict about fitting other replacements. The video on the VOR site mentions some sort of penalty the jury may impose in order for Tele to be able to lift the boat and fit non-designated replacements. What sort of penalty would that be?

[couchsurfer]

Does anybody have any insights into Telefónica's rudder conundrum? They have now broken or lost all their rudders and designated replacement rudders, and the notice of race is apparently quite strict about fitting other replacements. The video on the VOR site mentions some sort of penalty the jury may impose in order for Tele to be able to lift the boat and fit non-designated replacements. What sort of penalty would that be?

...beaurocracy at it's finest!?

[corkob]

The International Jury has ruled that if Groupama unsteps it's mast or if Telefonica or ADOR are lifted out they must incur a two point penalty.

[corkob]

Nothing mentioned about a penalty for using replacement rudders not in accordance with the NOR

[corkob]

I wonder will the teams elect to take the penalty or try and improvise like Sanya?

[onimod]

I guess it depends on how bad the damage is and unless we know more it's pretty hard to speculate.
G4 - unless Brad did a fair bit of damage you would imagine the work could be done via the same method used to temporarily fix the problem while racing.
Tele - the rudders made it this far (except for one leg). Unless there is additional damage then presumably new ones could be fitted the same way the replacement was done at sea.
What is the actual reason for the no lifting - lack of space; public access; cost control?

[yl75]

What is the actual reason for the no lifting - lack of space; public access; cost control?

Cost control for sure, and somehow the need to draw a line for having major changes done at the stops.

[Moonduster]

There's insufficient space to allow all teams to haul.

[Lexpat]

What is the actual reason for the no lifting - lack of space; public access; cost control?

Cost control for sure, and somehow the need to draw a line for having major changes done at the stops.

I thought because leg 8 and 9 were short , and it was more a kind of strategy from VOR org.

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

You would think that Tele’s want to lift the boat would be to inspect and replace (if need be) the rudder bearings to make sure they don’t have a Sanya style problem and risk having the rudder rip a hole in the boat.

Do we know exactly what the problem with Groupama’s mast is? Track pulling out up the top? Surely they would drop the two points to just be able to go 100% for the final part of the race.

[onimod]

You would think that Tele's want to lift the boat would be to inspect and replace (if need be) the rudder bearings to make sure they don't have a Sanya style problem and risk having the rudder rip a hole in the boat.

Do we know exactly what the problem with Groupama's mast is? Track pulling out up the top? Surely they would drop the two points to just be able to go 100% for the final part of the race.

I understood it to be a jammed headboard car.
Brad referred to the fix being a 'solution' and my understanding was that they thought they could remount the headboard to the stuck car or the replacement one they installed (fixed) at the two reefs position.
I don't know enough about the cars or tracks to guess what might have gone wrong or what the fix might be.
Any pictures of typical setups anyone?

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

You would think that Tele's want to lift the boat would be to inspect and replace (if need be) the rudder bearings to make sure they don't have a Sanya style problem and risk having the rudder rip a hole in the boat.

Do we know exactly what the problem with Groupama's mast is? Track pulling out up the top? Surely they would drop the two points to just be able to go 100% for the final part of the race.

I understood it to be a jammed headboard car.
Brad referred to the fix being a 'solution' and my understanding was that they thought they could remount the headboard to the stuck car or the replacement one they installed (fixed) at the two reefs position.
I don't know enough about the cars or tracks to guess what might have gone wrong or what the fix might be.
Any pictures of typical setups anyone?

I don’t know all that much about mainsail tracks, but if the car is stuck, it is generally due to it either getting stuck on a bolt, or the track deforming.

[onimod]

I don't know much either but I can think of some nifty ways to access it.
move boat so that dock is ~30m to starboard; swing keel to port; secure keel to to barge, swing keel back to centre and then slightly to starboard and voila - mast top at eye level on the dock.
Bonus keel inspection and bottom polish while you're at it.

[Terrafirma]

You would think that Tele’s want to lift the boat would be to inspect and replace (if need be) the rudder bearings to make sure they don’t have a Sanya style problem and risk having the rudder rip a hole in the boat.

Do we know exactly what the problem with Groupama’s mast is? Track pulling out up the top? Surely they would drop the two points to just be able to go 100% for the final part of the race.

Yes but the penalty or threat of a penalty prohibits them from doing so, hence why Sanya are doing theirs in the water, TF have potentially more damage and things to consider so they need to wait for the International Jury to comeback with some answers before proceeding blindly. The rules were in place before the start of the race with regards to rudders and the changing of etc, they are in an unsual predicament. Given Telefonica's recent results and position on the scoreboard now the pressure is mounting on them, they need a huge turnaround and a coming together of circumstances to win this race now.

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

You would think that Tele’s want to lift the boat would be to inspect and replace (if need be) the rudder bearings to make sure they don’t have a Sanya style problem and risk having the rudder rip a hole in the boat.

Do we know exactly what the problem with Groupama’s mast is? Track pulling out up the top? Surely they would drop the two points to just be able to go 100% for the final part of the race.

Yes but the penalty or threat of a penalty prohibits them from doing so, hence why Sanya are doing theirs in the water, TF have potentially more damage and things to consider so they need to wait for the International Jury to comeback with some answers before proceeding blindly. The rules were in place before the start of the race with regards to rudders and the changing of etc, they are in an unsual predicament. Given Telefonica's recent results and position on the scoreboard now the pressure is mounting on them, they need a huge turnaround and a coming together of circumstances to win this race now.

The penalty is only two points. Two points will move Telefonica to 4th place (on points), and allow the boat to fault free for the final leg/in port race. If they dont pull it out, find that 100 miles into the final leg that there is a problem and finish DFL, well those two points look like nothing any more.

If it was my boat i know what i would be doing, and allow the boat to be sailed at 100%.

BUT in saying that, i dont know if that is why they are pulling the boat out.

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

I don't know much either but I can think of some nifty ways to access it.
move boat so that dock is ~30m to starboard; swing keel to port; secure keel to to barge, swing keel back to centre and then slightly to starboard and voila - mast top at eye level on the dock.
Bonus keel inspection and bottom polish while you're at it.

Now i would love to see that. Would be a great photo oppertunity too!

[Moonduster]

No barge necessary. With the keel canted towards the dock and a masthead halyard secured to the dock, it's easy to grind the mast head down to the dock. Takes less than 5 minutes. All the boats do it for their pull-down test.

[gybe-ho!]

Kinda like this?

[tomtom]

You would think that Tele's want to lift the boat would be to inspect and replace (if need be) the rudder bearings to make sure they don't have a Sanya style problem and risk having the rudder rip a hole in the boat.

Do we know exactly what the problem with Groupama's mast is? Track pulling out up the top? Surely they would drop the two points to just be able to go 100% for the final part of the race.

Yes but the penalty or threat of a penalty prohibits them from doing so, hence why Sanya are doing theirs in the water, TF have potentially more damage and things to consider so they need to wait for the International Jury to comeback with some answers before proceeding blindly. The rules were in place before the start of the race with regards to rudders and the changing of etc, they are in an unsual predicament. Given Telefonica's recent results and position on the scoreboard now the pressure is mounting on them, they need a huge turnaround and a coming together of circumstances to win this race now.

The penalty is only two points. Two points will move Telefonica to 4th place (on points), and allow the boat to fault free for the final leg/in port race. If they dont pull it out, find that 100 miles into the final leg that there is a problem and finish DFL, well those two points look like nothing any more.

If it was my boat i know what i would be doing, and allow the boat to be sailed at 100%.

BUT in saying that, i dont know if that is why they are pulling the boat out.

Probably a very stupid suggestion, knowing sweet ... all about maintaining these kind of boats (and my boat gets lifted out for everything :-) ), but would it not be possible for Telefonica to place a couple of airbags / air mattresses (not the sleeping kind of course) underneath the boat, to the back of the keel, and then just pop the arse into the air and do the repair that way?

I know the NOR states: "When a Leg finishes at a Non-Haul-out Stop, Boats shall not use any machinery, systems, devices or other methods of removing the Boat from the water or the water from around the
Boat and shall not use a crane or other method to remove or step the rig or any other item."

But just popping the arse up does not constitute "removing the boat from the water" or " remove the water from around the boat"? Or does it?

[Moonduster]

It's really quite unclear as to why Telefonica wants to haul in order to repair their rudders. Certainly the blades themselves can be dropped in and out with ease. All the bearings can similarly be replaced with no drama. They can even ultrasound at the dock simply by canting. The whole thing is confusing to me and makes me think something else is going on.

[onimod]

No barge necessary. With the keel canted towards the dock and a masthead halyard secured to the dock, it's easy to grind the mast head down to the dock. Takes less than 5 minutes. All the boats do it for their pull-down test.

Thanks - I'll file that in the knowledge bank.

[yl75]

I thought because leg 8 and 9 were short , and it was more a kind of strategy from VOR org.

I would say it is a strategy from VOR org to limit the team budgets(but I don't know the current details at all)

[European Bloke]

No barge necessary. With the keel canted towards the dock and a masthead halyard secured to the dock, it's easy to grind the mast head down to the dock. Takes less than 5 minutes. All the boats do it for their pull-down test.

Thanks - I'll file that in the knowledge bank.

Dragging the M24 over did funny things to my sphincter, laying one of those big bastards over would put me right off my beer.

[forss]

IMOCA 90degrees test for VOR70 maybe?

http://www.mikegolding.com/image-gallery/?album=1&gallery=21

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

Are the swans/geese a requirement for all pull down test

[tomtom]

Are the swans/geese a requirement for all pull down test

yup

[onimod]

^ my flippant idea isn't that stoopid, although a winch-down would be easier and cheaper then using the crane in that pic wouldn't it?
It looks like things are going from bad to worse with the ruling on 'The Phone's rudders though:
http://www.volvoocea...ury-ruling.html

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

From sail world
Telefonica smashed two of her 'racing' rudders on the final day pf Leg 8 into Lorient, and requested the Jury's permission to replace these with a set of rudders of an older different design, citing a paralell permisison in the sail measurement rules for the race, and requesting that the International Jury apply the same principle to rudders.

The International Jury refused the request, and Telefonica must now build/repair two rudders to the same design and specification as those which failed and fit these into the boat for the Inport Race, Leg 9 to Galway Ireland and final Inport Race.

[STYACHT]

All of the boats have done the 90 degree <edit 50 deg!> test already. It was a requirement before the race began. It could be used for all of the described repairs, except if ADOR has to come off keel to fix their issues. <edit, still true of 50 deg except for G4> Two point penalty for all teams to haul out or pull the mast. My judgement: ADOR will haul out, Groupama will fix the mast track in place, Telefonica will replace the rudders (or not) in the water by filling the bow of the boat with water. They are too short of points to give up any.

I say or not because if they replace the rudders with any of the other rudders they have built (they have built ~3 more of different plan form <- perfect example of why equipment rules do not save money at all) they will get a 5 point penalty for the leg and 1 point for each in port. They have one presumably cracked port rudder right now. What to do? Depends on whether or not they can effectively jury rig something on their transom for effective steering and or make Galway on one gybe. Kidding! I am guessing their starting position after the in shore portion of the ocean leg easily justifies a 5 point penalty. But, I am also betting that there is a new like for like rudder under construction right now. Strike that, 2! What penalty will they face for fitting a like for like rudder 4 and rudder 5 to the boat? That is not clear to me, as the jury decision seemed to penalize for the lack of like for like replacement. Probably the same penalty.

Their situation also reminds me of a comment made on the SO leg. Then, Groupama 4 did not finish the leg with a VO70v3 legit mast (too light, too low CG), but we all assume there is a tolerance in the NOR for jury rigging. Has anybody looked that it says you have to START a leg with a valid cert, but not finish in the same shape? Now, Tele will potentially be starting an in port and a leg with a jury rigged emergency rudder (on their predefined transom gudgeons) OR with -gasp- one rudder. Two identical rudders are required in VO70v3.

[~HHN92~]

Maybe its not an access issue but a time issue. The time the repairs would take on one side would not leave enough time for the other side, based on canting the boat over?

[kiwi_jon]

From sail world
Telefonica smashed two of her 'racing' rudders on the final day pf Leg 8 into Lorient, and requested the Jury's permission to replace these with a set of rudders of an older different design, citing a paralell permisison in the sail measurement rules for the race, and requesting that the International Jury apply the same principle to rudders.

The International Jury refused the request, and Telefonica must now build/repair two rudders to the same design and specification as those which failed and fit these into the boat for the Inport Race, Leg 9 to Galway Ireland and final Inport Race.

The Jury decision did add a note that if Telefonica made a decision to race with the old rudders, while they are still compliant with the VOR 70 v3 Class rule, they will be not be compliant with NOR 9.3.3( and will therefore be penalised 5 points for Leg 9 and 1 point per In Port Race.

http://noticeboard.volvooceanrace.com/wp-content/uploads/Final-Case-9-Telefonica-rudders-revised3.pdf

[kiwi_jon]

But, I am also betting that there is a new like for like rudder under construction right now. Strike that, 2! What penalty will they face for fitting a like for like rudder 4 and rudder 5 to the boat? That is not clear to me, as the jury decision seemed to penalize for the lack of like for like replacement. Probably the same penalty.

There is no penalty if they replace the rudders with new like for like rudders. NOR 9.3.3( B ) allows it.

NOR 9.3.3

From the time of a Boat being issued its first Volvo Open 70 v.3 Class Certificate for the Race
until the expiry of the protest time limit for the final Leg, Pro-Am race, In-Port race which ever
is later:
(a) Hull shapes shall not be intentionally modified
( b ) Appendages shall only be replaced with a like for like change in accordance with NOR 5.6


NOR 5.6.5

From the time a Boat has been issued its first Volvo Open 70 v.3 Class Certificate for the
Race: any declared Appendage shall not be changed and its position, plan form and section
shape or weight shall not be intentionally changed. However in the event an Appendage is
damaged or broken the Appendage may be replaced with another Appendage that in plan
form and section shape is a like for like of the damaged or broken declared Appendage.

[gybe-ho!]

Are the swans/geese a requirement for all pull down test

Always, Safety Swans!

[STYACHT]

Maybe its not an access issue but a time issue. The time the repairs would take on one side would not leave enough time for the other side, based on canting the boat over?

Having a think, heeling the boat to 90 deg loads the boat less than the 50 deg + cant 40 deg test that the class rule dictates. I am sure the boats could be heeled to any angle without a rigging or structural problem - see video of mega knockdowns for proof.

As for time to do both sides, the way these boats are shaped, if you lay it on its side, but rudder bearings are well clear of the water. The boat trims way forward past 45 deg heel.

[Potter]

Maybe its not an access issue but a time issue. The time the repairs would take on one side would not leave enough time for the other side, based on canting the boat over?

Having a think, heeling the boat to 90 deg loads the boat less than the 50 deg + cant 40 deg test that the class rule dictates. I am sure the boats could be heeled to any angle without a rigging or structural problem - see video of mega knockdowns for proof.

As for time to do both sides, the way these boats are shaped, if you lay it on its side, but rudder bearings are well clear of the water. The boat trims way forward past 45 deg heel.

Spot on as always DOug; as you say the loads when heeled are not a big issue. Especially when you consider that it is the dynamic loads that cause the greatest problem, the static load at 90 degrees is no biggie.

I assume the VOR 70 is fairly similar to the IMOCA 60, in that when canted to 90 degrees there is only approx 50 cm of the side under water. So working on both rudders is a possibility. However, it is a pain for hydraulic systems, and engine oil etc. draining themselves to the wrong places.

[Terrafirma]

The odds are stacking up against Telefonica now, along with their form, how they managed to break the unbreakable Juan K boat is beyond me?

We need Groupama to have a shocker but they could sail conservatively and still finish 3rd.

[schakel]

The odds are stacking up against Telefonica now, along with their form, how they managed to break the unbreakable Juan K boat is beyond me?

We need Groupama to have a shocker but they could sail conservatively and still finish 3rd.

Hitting a submerged container at 20 knots probably cost any high aspect rudder. Including bearings.
I understood Telefhonica did not know what they hit. Juan Kouyoumboudjan can do a lot.. but not the impossible.
For security reasons there has to be a breaking limit to the rudder. Otherwise the 20 Knots ship stands still in less then a second. Deceleration is more then the "safe" 10 G. After that everybody on board in unconscious or catapulted with 20 knots against inside wall of the cabin, forestay, steering wheel. Imagine...

Still in turn key lump sum engineering Terrafirma?
There is the worst case scenario of the new AC 72 as well. I would not like to write a Hazop-report about that.
(Hazop = scenario study of a Hazardous Operation as required in process industry)

[nixon]

Can anyone give a timeline on the Tele rudder story?

My understanding is (and I am not saying this is how it happened):

• Going downwind in heavy conditions, they broke the first inboard (stb?) rudder in a gybe
• Put the replacement inboard rudder
• Gybed, then continued to press hard on the other board
• Broke the other (port?) inboard rudder
• Gybed away and fitted the external (port?) rudder

I just don't get it - did they go through 3 or 4 rudders? How many internal? How many External.

BTW, by external I mean hanging off the transom.

Can someone give us a breakdown (sorry) of the sequence of events please.

And if you are qualified to comment, do you think that Tele was pushing harder than the others (kite up etc.) and this lead to multiple rudder failures? Did Tele back off at any point after x rudders?

Thanks (btw this is curiosity, not bitching!)

[crashdog]

There is an interview with Iker on the team telefonica website which describes in detail what happened.

http://www.teamtelef...-PODER-GANARLA”

[roca]

Can anyone give a timeline on the Tele rudder story?

My understanding is (and I am not saying this is how it happened):

• Going downwind in heavy conditions, they broke the first inboard (stb?) rudder in a gybe
• Put the replacement inboard rudder
• Gybed, then continued to press hard on the other board
• Broke the other (port?) inboard rudder
• Gybed away and fitted the external (port?) rudder

I just don't get it - did they go through 3 or 4 rudders? How many internal? How many External.

BTW, by external I mean hanging off the transom.

Can someone give us a breakdown (sorry) of the sequence of events please.

And if you are qualified to comment, do you think that Tele was pushing harder than the others (kite up etc.) and this lead to multiple rudder failures? Did Tele back off at any point after x rudders?

Thanks (btw this is curiosity, not bitching!)

I understood like this:

I think they first broke starboard rudder (while on port tack), pushing very hard, not gybing, could be a broach, replaced with the (only available) spare, smaller, still inboard, replaced at sea..
then after the gybe, while on starboard tack, they broke both the port rudder and the spare starboard rudder as "the boat came down a wave". at night. After this crash they were left with only the damaged port rudder still working enough to get to lorient at half speed.

I think they pushed too hard and made some little "mistake". They were so sorry to sound guilty (responsible I mean). After their first breakage, both puma and tele took down gennaker. Groupama took it back on after tele came from behind very very fast pushing very very hard. After that they kept close to tele and then kept the gennaker on through all the night beyond the others, but I would say the frenches are better at preserving the boat in hard conditions. Someone here contested the presumed sail setup chosen by the spanishes.

http://www.teamtelefonica.com/en/news/626/%E2%80%9CTELEFONICA%E2%80%9D-REDUCES-SPEED-ON-WAY-TO-LORIENT/page/1

[29erNeil]

In the onboard footage from the "big day" telefonica do look to be pushing extremely hard before the wipe out- I too wonder if they were just going a bit too far?

[umpire]

Kinda like this?

The mighty Speedboat, god bless her.

[gybe-ho!]

Kinda like this?

The mighty Speedboat, god bless her.

Back in the day.

[STYACHT]

I understood like this:

I think they first broke starboard rudder (while on port tack), pushing very hard, not gybing, could be a broach, replaced with the (only available) spare, smaller, still inboard, replaced at sea..
then after the gybe, while on starboard tack, they broke both the port rudder and the spare starboard rudder as "the boat came down a wave". at night. After this crash they were left with only the damaged port rudder still working enough to get to lorient at half speed.

I think they pushed too hard and made some little "mistake". They were so sorry to sound guilty (responsible I mean). After their first breakage, both puma and tele took down gennaker. Groupama took it back on after tele came from behind very very fast pushing very very hard. After that they kept close to tele and then kept the gennaker on through all the night beyond the others, but I would say the frenches are better at preserving the boat in hard conditions. Someone here contested the presumed sail setup chosen by the spanishes.

http://www.teamtelefonica.com/en/news/626/%E2%80%9CTELEFONICA%E2%80%9D-REDUCES-SPEED-ON-WAY-TO-LORIENT/page/1

Same exact replacement rudder. Identical in every way, including weight and lamination. They can have made as many of these as they want, and it seems they made exactly 3 rudders of this size/shape. They have an additional 2 (or more) rudders of a different planform and section, but must take a penalty to fit them. This all excludes their emergency rudder(s) which go on the transom.

Poor planning from an otherwise class act. They will miraculously and at great cost make a new pair of the original rudders. They will pull the boat to fit them, probably during the pro-am.

IMHO.

[bruno]

I would hope they a mold and that someone started waxing it before the boat hit the dock, with baking 2 weeks seems eminently feasible.

[STYACHT]

I would hope they a mold and that someone started waxing it before the boat hit the dock, with baking 2 weeks seems eminently feasible.

Sure they must have put a plan in motion as soon as rudder number 3 broke. But the limiting factor may well be the right prepregs. Could be exotic fibre like M46J, not always in stock. They have to do the new rudder with exactly the same weight to measure in, I guess they could just whip one up with T700 and hope for light air. Still, I reckon they will get er done.

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

I should imagine that as soon as the 2nd rudder broke they started planning a replacement

[onimod]

A bit more explanation of the G4 issue:
http://www.cammas-gr..._equipe_542.jsp

[corkob]

Apart from Sanya and Telefonica have any other teams had rudder problems. Seems a bit odd that tele should have gone through three of them. Can they be destroyed by water pressure alone or do they have to hit something to break.

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

Apart from Sanya and Telefonica have any other teams had rudder problems. Seems a bit odd that tele should have gone through three of them. Can they be destroyed by water pressure alone or do they have to hit something to break.

If you spin out doing 30 knots, water pressure would be pretty significant especially if it is a jolt, ie wave slamming into the back of the boat.

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

A bit more explanation of the G4 issue:
http://www.cammas-groupama.com/en/news/VORnews/actu_equipe_542.jsp

So problems with a halyard lock?

[MSA]

I understood like this:

I think they first broke starboard rudder (while on port tack), pushing very hard, not gybing, could be a broach, replaced with the (only available) spare, smaller, still inboard, replaced at sea..
then after the gybe, while on starboard tack, they broke both the port rudder and the spare starboard rudder as "the boat came down a wave". at night. After this crash they were left with only the damaged port rudder still working enough to get to lorient at half speed.

I think they pushed too hard and made some little "mistake". They were so sorry to sound guilty (responsible I mean). After their first breakage, both puma and tele took down gennaker. Groupama took it back on after tele came from behind very very fast pushing very very hard. After that they kept close to tele and then kept the gennaker on through all the night beyond the others, but I would say the frenches are better at preserving the boat in hard conditions. Someone here contested the presumed sail setup chosen by the spanishes.

http://www.teamtelef...-LORIENT/page/1

Same exact replacement rudder. Identical in every way, including weight and lamination. They can have made as many of these as they want, and it seems they made exactly 3 rudders of this size/shape. They have an additional 2 (or more) rudders of a different planform and section, but must take a penalty to fit them. This all excludes their emergency rudder(s) which go on the transom.

Poor planning from an otherwise class act. They will miraculously and at great cost make a new pair of the original rudders. They will pull the boat to fit them, probably during the pro-am.

IMHO.

My Take on it was they could not fit the 2 "older" rudders as their request for this was denied, they were told they needed to be identical to the ones that broke. They asked for the same interpretation/rules that is applied to sails be applied for Rudders. This was a separate request to the application to haul the boat and did not make mention to points penalty.
The only time they would get a 2 point penalty would be if it required hauling the boat or craning the mast out, as per the same request from Abu Dhabi and Groupama.

Did I read it wrong?

[onimod]

A bit more explanation of the G4 issue:
http://www.cammas-gr..._equipe_542.jsp

So problems with a halyard lock?

...or at least not as bad as first thought.

[Moonduster]

There's no way that the rudders should break from water force alone. It's my understanding that the maximum force is developed when the rudder is fully stalled at a chosen max speed. I have a hard time believing that the max speed chosen to drive the design is even remotely attainable as the costs for messing with the design strength of the rudder are (clearly) not worth the price.

As far as repairing the existing rudders, that seems highly unlikely. If the blades delaminated from the stocks, then it would be possible. But if the stocks broke then they're essentially garbage.

I'd put construction time at two days for the stock and half blades in parallel, one day for machining the stock and then one day for assembly and one day for post-cure. That adds up to 5 days for the first ruder and probably an additional two days for each additional rudder if there's only one mold available. That makes 9 days to get three rudders - ouch! Anyone think that could be accellerated?

[harzak]

There's no way that the rudders should break from water force alone. It's my understanding that the maximum force is developed when the rudder is fully stalled at a chosen max speed. I have a hard time believing that the max speed chosen to drive the design is even remotely attainable as the costs for messing with the design strength of the rudder are (clearly) not worth the price.

If you're right, then Telefonica hit at least two separate objects, breaking three rudders. Talk about bad luck.

Correct me if I'm wrong:
There are at least a couple of scenarios that would create bigger loads than stalled full speed. If the boat halted very quickly (e.g. by running aground or crashing very badly into a wave), or when reconnecting to the water after the boat's gone flying. In both cases, the likelihood of breakage would increase as the force's angle to the rudder increase.

So could it be one of these, combined with a steering error that increased the angle of the rudders to the force, and which Iker is apologizing for?

[Moonduster]

Harzak,

When I was having a custom carbon spade designed for my boat, the Naval Architect and I had that same conversation. His story was that if rudder is loaded, and you continue to increase the load, eventually it stalls. And at the moment it stalls, the force is the greatest. Based on that, dragging the blade sideways (stalled) at speed, creates the maximum load. So when designing the stock's shear strength at the lower bearing, one just needs to know the blade area and then select a "maximum speed".

It took me a while to concede the point - lemme know if you find a problem with the logic. There'll be a million naval architects really interested if you do!

[popov]

So when designing the stock's shear strength at the lower bearing, one just needs to know the blade area and then select a "maximum speed".

A question for engineers : can we consider as equivalent the loads of a force applied consistently and progressively, with a instant unusual load applied punctually (Cf: impact stress)?
I mean: maybe those rudders are tested and reinforced to accept the critical loads (cf: eventually when it stalls). But in this case we consider the compressive, tensile and shear stress in a specific combination wich do not correspond with a stress in an impact?

[ChristianSch]

When carbon stocks were brand new on Admiral Cuppers 1979 an excessive amount of broken stocks occurred during the Fastnet race. Driving down a 30' cliff (wave) and extreme steering caused many to snap off. Afterwards all rudder stocks got redesigned and that experience is probably still one of today's benchmarks.

[mad]

There's no way that the rudders should break from water force alone. It's my understanding that the maximum force is developed when the rudder is fully stalled at a chosen max speed. I have a hard time believing that the max speed chosen to drive the design is even remotely attainable as the costs for messing with the design strength of the rudder are (clearly) not worth the price.

As far as repairing the existing rudders, that seems highly unlikely. If the blades delaminated from the stocks, then it would be possible. But if the stocks broke then they're essentially garbage.

I'd put construction time at two days for the stock and half blades in parallel, one day for machining the stock and then one day for assembly and one day for post-cure. That adds up to 5 days for the first ruder and probably an additional two days for each additional rudder if there's only one mold available. That makes 9 days to get three rudders - ouch! Anyone think that could be accellerated?

Direct machine some more female moulds, build them all at the same time.

[Panoramix]

So when designing the stock's shear strength at the lower bearing, one just needs to know the blade area and then select a "maximum speed".

A question for engineers : can we consider as equivalent the loads of a force applied consistently and progressively, with a instant unusual load applied punctually (Cf: impact stress)?
I mean: maybe those rudders are tested and reinforced to accept the critical loads (cf: eventually when it stalls). But in this case we consider the compressive, tensile and shear stress in a specific combination wich do not correspond with a stress in an impact?

an engineer reply: it depends.

I can't really comment as I don't have CF experience but for instance wood is more resistent to short term loads than long term ones whereas steel doesn't mind (up to a cetain point as for very sudden loads such as something hard hitting at speed, it is a matter of resilience more than strength, but a stalling rudder load would be relatively progressive (at very least 1/2 second at a guess)).
to have a grasp of resilience vs strenght: glass strong but not resilient at all, steel very strong and fairly resilient, wood: fairly strong and resilient, chewing gum: not strong at all but some resilience.

[Cyrille Hydrogene]

So when designing the stock's shear strength at the lower bearing, one just needs to know the blade area and then select a "maximum speed".

A question for engineers : can we consider as equivalent the loads of a force applied consistently and progressively, with a instant unusual load applied punctually (Cf: impact stress)?
I mean: maybe those rudders are tested and reinforced to accept the critical loads (cf: eventually when it stalls). But in this case we consider the compressive, tensile and shear stress in a specific combination wich do not correspond with a stress in an impact?

an engineer reply: it depends.

I can't really comment as I don't have CF experience but for instance wood is more resistent to short term loads than long term ones whereas steel doesn't mind (up to a cetain point as for very sudden loads such as something hard hitting at speed, it is a matter of resilience more than strength, but a stalling rudder load would be relatively progressive (at very least 1/2 second at a guess)).
to have a grasp of resilience vs strenght: glass strong but not resilient at all, steel very strong and fairly resilient, wood: fairly strong and resilient, chewing gum: not strong at all but some resilience.

I would expect carbon fiber to be very strong, but not so resilient. Is that right?

[~HHN92~]

So when designing the stock's shear strength at the lower bearing, one just needs to know the blade area and then select a "maximum speed".

A question for engineers : can we consider as equivalent the loads of a force applied consistently and progressively, with a instant unusual load applied punctually (Cf: impact stress)?
I mean: maybe those rudders are tested and reinforced to accept the critical loads (cf: eventually when it stalls). But in this case we consider the compressive, tensile and shear stress in a specific combination wich do not correspond with a stress in an impact?

an engineer reply: it depends.

I can't really comment as I don't have CF experience but for instance wood is more resistent to short term loads than long term ones whereas steel doesn't mind (up to a cetain point as for very sudden loads such as something hard hitting at speed, it is a matter of resilience more than strength, but a stalling rudder load would be relatively progressive (at very least 1/2 second at a guess)).
to have a grasp of resilience vs strenght: glass strong but not resilient at all, steel very strong and fairly resilient, wood: fairly strong and resilient, chewing gum: not strong at all but some resilience.

I would expect carbon fiber to be very strong, but not so resilient. Is that right?

That's my understanding. It does not like impact loading at all. A quick change in loading (like a wipe out, etc) and carbon can give it up, especially considering the cycles it has gone through during the duration of this event.

[STYACHT]

...

I would expect carbon fiber to be very strong, but not so resilient. Is that right?

That's my understanding. It does not like impact loading at all. A quick change in loading (like a wipe out, etc) and carbon can give it up, especially considering the cycles it has gone through during the duration of this event.

Carbon can be stong, and it can be stiff, and it can be resilient. Maybe not the most resilient of materials, but if you have ever inverted a well made carbon mast and seen how much more abuse it can take than a "performance" alloy mast, you might think twice about where you draw those lines. Take a look at the cracked port rudder of Tele, as another example. Resilient enough to sail at reduced speed to the dock. Usually carbon fibre constructions do not have fatigue failure, though they do suffer more often from progressive failures. Usually, they just snap, explode, disintegrate; no "warning" as has often been said. The attributes of the component, stiffness, strength, resilience, depend on all of the decisions made in design: method, fibre selection, fibre orientation, etc. etc. That is what yields almost zero comparison to metals.

In truth, I doubt that any VO70 rudder is designed for stall at full predicted speed. Stall at 40 knots? Ah, ... no. For a very high speed relative to all other yachts, yes. Already exceedingly unlikely rudder angles for 40 knots, yes again. Moreover, stall is not in fact the maximum load possible. Impact with the free surface will instantaneously create far more load than the stall scenario described. This fact is well known on all multi rudder yachts, to the point that caveats exist in design and scantling rules for the case. It has also to do with the fact that the loading is not over the whole blade, but just the extreme tip, creating a bigger bending moment at the rudder bearings.

As WYD has said many times, no matter what, it can be broke. When the loading exceeds the load capacity, they break, almost always completely, call that "giving it up" if you wish.

[onimod]

Better that the rudder gave up than it (not so neatly) took the transom section with it...

[~HHN92~]

...

I would expect carbon fiber to be very strong, but not so resilient. Is that right?

That's my understanding. It does not like impact loading at all. A quick change in loading (like a wipe out, etc) and carbon can give it up, especially considering the cycles it has gone through during the duration of this event.

Carbon can be stong, and it can be stiff, and it can be resilient. Maybe not the most resilient of materials, but if you have ever inverted a well made carbon mast and seen how much more abuse it can take than a "performance" alloy mast, you might think twice about where you draw those lines. Take a look at the cracked port rudder of Tele, as another example. Resilient enough to sail at reduced speed to the dock. Usually carbon fibre constructions do not have fatigue failure, though they do suffer more often from progressive failures. Usually, they just snap, explode, disintegrate; no "warning" as has often been said. The attributes of the component, stiffness, strength, resilience, depend on all of the decisions made in design: method, fibre selection, fibre orientation, etc. etc. That is what yields almost zero comparison to metals.

In truth, I doubt that any VO70 rudder is designed for stall at full predicted speed. Stall at 40 knots? Ah, ... no. For a very high speed relative to all other yachts, yes. Already exceedingly unlikely rudder angles for 40 knots, yes again. Moreover, stall is not in fact the maximum load possible. Impact with the free surface will instantaneously create far more load than the stall scenario described. This fact is well known on all multi rudder yachts, to the point that caveats exist in design and scantling rules for the case. It has also to do with the fact that the loading is not over the whole blade, but just the extreme tip, creating a bigger bending moment at the rudder bearings.

As WYD has said many times, no matter what, it can be broke. When the loading exceeds the load capacity, they break, almost always completely, call that "giving it up" if you wish.

So, carbon takes repeated load cycles without any fatigue? I agree it seems to 'go' when it does give-up, but cycles of load during a long period and then a big one comes along would not cause it to say 'enough'?

[josselin]

Incredible!!

That is MY beach in my home town...

betahon powaa!

[Alysum]

What is this long piece on the right joining the mast? Is it the below decks boom vang with just a line outside joining the boom ?

[ctutmark]

What is this long piece on the right joining the mast? Is it the below decks boom vang with just a line outside joining the boom ?

Halyard tunnel. GPMA uses a centerline mounted halyard winch

[catmanjr]

What is this long piece on the right joining the mast? Is it the below decks boom vang with just a line outside joining the boom ?

Halyard tunnel. GPMA uses a centerline mounted halyard winch

They also use it to help them downstairs. I don't remember the video but one of the daily Volvo video's stated it was rather handy for helping them downstairs and from moving winward/leward downstairs.

[onimod]

^ you can also see the halyard tunnel in this video @~1:30:
http://groupama-fron...video-5579.html

[dumper]

What is this long piece on the right joining the mast? Is it the below decks boom vang with just a line outside joining the boom ?

5:35 explaines it

[GnarlyItWas]

Have any of the current G4 crew previously won the vor ?

Assuming they win, when was the last time a boat one with no previous winners on board?

[umpire]

Have any of the current G4 crew previously won the vor ?

Assuming they win, when was the last time a boat one with no previous winners on board?

Can't see that any of the crew have been onboard a winning VOR boat, but 7 of them have previous VOR experience.

[STYACHT]

...

I would expect carbon fiber to be very strong, but not so resilient. Is that right?

That's my understanding. It does not like impact loading at all. A quick change in loading (like a wipe out, etc) and carbon can give it up, especially considering the cycles it has gone through during the duration of this event.

Carbon can be stong, and it can be stiff, and it can be resilient. Maybe not the most resilient of materials, but if you have ever inverted a well made carbon mast and seen how much more abuse it can take than a "performance" alloy mast, you might think twice about where you draw those lines. Take a look at the cracked port rudder of Tele, as another example. Resilient enough to sail at reduced speed to the dock. Usually carbon fibre constructions do not have fatigue failure, though they do suffer more often from progressive failures. Usually, they just snap, explode, disintegrate; no "warning" as has often been said. The attributes of the component, stiffness, strength, resilience, depend on all of the decisions made in design: method, fibre selection, fibre orientation, etc. etc. That is what yields almost zero comparison to metals.

In truth, I doubt that any VO70 rudder is designed for stall at full predicted speed. Stall at 40 knots? Ah, ... no. For a very high speed relative to all other yachts, yes. Already exceedingly unlikely rudder angles for 40 knots, yes again. Moreover, stall is not in fact the maximum load possible. Impact with the free surface will instantaneously create far more load than the stall scenario described. This fact is well known on all multi rudder yachts, to the point that caveats exist in design and scantling rules for the case. It has also to do with the fact that the loading is not over the whole blade, but just the extreme tip, creating a bigger bending moment at the rudder bearings.

As WYD has said many times, no matter what, it can be broke. When the loading exceeds the load capacity, they break, almost always completely, call that "giving it up" if you wish.

So, carbon takes repeated load cycles without any fatigue? I agree it seems to 'go' when it does give-up, but cycles of load during a long period and then a big one comes along would not cause it to say 'enough'?

Fatigue does exist, no question. I am saying that it is not so very common in marine applications. In many marine constructions, stiffness considerations drive the design out of the realm of fatigue. Moreover, because the material is not a continuum, the mechanics are different that with metals.

I do not buy fatigue with those tele rudder failures, as a brand new rudder was ruined in one day.

They went all in, and lost.

[STYACHT]

I just had an aha moment. I am sure that this came to tele some time back. Strip the blade off of the alternate rudder stocks. Replace foil with one identical to the broken rudders. Fool with laminate if weight does not match. Very easily done in the time window, no issues with material order. Replace with boat in the water, give up no points. Simple really. Probably 95 percent strength comparison, but the race is almost over.

[onimod]

Do we know what the actual problem was - cracked blade, stock or blade/stock interface?

[STYACHT]

Maybe its not an access issue but a time issue. The time the repairs would take on one side would not leave enough time for the other side, based on canting the boat over?

Having a think, heeling the boat to 90 deg loads the boat less than the 50 deg + cant 40 deg test that the class rule dictates. I am sure the boats could be heeled to any angle without a rigging or structural problem - see video of mega knockdowns for proof.

As for time to do both sides, the way these boats are shaped, if you lay it on its side, but rudder bearings are well clear of the water. The boat trims way forward past 45 deg heel.

Spot on as always DOug; as you say the loads when heeled are not a big issue. Especially when you consider that it is the dynamic loads that cause the greatest problem, the static load at 90 degrees is no biggie.

I assume the VOR 70 is fairly similar to the IMOCA 60, in that when canted to 90 degrees there is only approx 50 cm of the side under water. So working on both rudders is a possibility. However, it is a pain for hydraulic systems, and engine oil etc. draining themselves to the wrong places.

From VOR site

"Having constructed a replacement fairing, members of Allen’s team met at 0400 on Wednesday, when the tide height and weather conditions were optimum, to careen the boat over at the dockside using a halyard."

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

I'm glad they took our advice

[Cyrille Hydrogene]

Ken Read hitched a ride onboard the trimaran Sodebo with one of his competitors: Thomas Coville
http://www.sodebo-vo...ias/photos.html
I don't know if he appreciated the ride, but the weather sure looked very cold! Summer in Brittany...

[onedesignracing]

I'm glad they took our advice

That's not Tele. No word on the rudder repairs that I know of.

[Cyrille Hydrogene]

Ken Read hitched a ride onboard the trimaran Sodebo with one of his competitors: Thomas Coville
http://www.sodebo-vo...ias/photos.html
I don't know if he appreciated the ride, but the weather sure looked very cold! Summer in Brittany...

while Ken Read was on Sodebo, Chris Nicholson took a ride on Groupama 3 with Franck Cammas!
http://etnzblog.com/#!2012/06/nico-sees-triple

French sailors are trying to disseminate the multihull virus overseas, it seems...

[erdb]

I'm glad they took our advice

That's not Tele. No word on the rudder repairs that I know of.

Nothing in the article about Tele, but two of the pics show someone sanding and painting a rudder!

[josselin]

Ken Read hitched a ride onboard the trimaran Sodebo with one of his competitors: Thomas Coville
http://www.sodebo-vo...ias/photos.html
I don't know if he appreciated the ride, but the weather sure looked very cold! Summer in Brittany...

while Ken Read was on Sodebo, Chris Nicholson took a ride on Groupama 3 with Franck Cammas!
http://etnzblog.com/...ico-sees-triple

French sailors are trying to disseminate the multihull virus overseas, it seems...

Not sure but its seems that GP3 still have it solo racing rig ( Route du rhum) not the big one sailed round the world!!

Sure its is nice to see Sanderson and Nicholson gridding on GP3!!

Pretty cool to see that visitors can sail M30 with the VOR team colors... congrats Lorient for the work!

[umpire]

Look like Franck Cammas is made of stern stuff!



http://www.volvoocea...-de-Franck.html

[Panoramix]

...

I would expect carbon fiber to be very strong, but not so resilient. Is that right?

That's my understanding. It does not like impact loading at all. A quick change in loading (like a wipe out, etc) and carbon can give it up, especially considering the cycles it has gone through during the duration of this event.

Carbon can be stong, and it can be stiff, and it can be resilient. Maybe not the most resilient of materials, but if you have ever inverted a well made carbon mast and seen how much more abuse it can take than a "performance" alloy mast, you might think twice about where you draw those lines. Take a look at the cracked port rudder of Tele, as another example. Resilient enough to sail at reduced speed to the dock. Usually carbon fibre constructions do not have fatigue failure, though they do suffer more often from progressive failures. Usually, they just snap, explode, disintegrate; no "warning" as has often been said. The attributes of the component, stiffness, strength, resilience, depend on all of the decisions made in design: method, fibre selection, fibre orientation, etc. etc. That is what yields almost zero comparison to metals.

In truth, I doubt that any VO70 rudder is designed for stall at full predicted speed. Stall at 40 knots? Ah, ... no. For a very high speed relative to all other yachts, yes. Already exceedingly unlikely rudder angles for 40 knots, yes again. Moreover, stall is not in fact the maximum load possible. Impact with the free surface will instantaneously create far more load than the stall scenario described. This fact is well known on all multi rudder yachts, to the point that caveats exist in design and scantling rules for the case. It has also to do with the fact that the loading is not over the whole blade, but just the extreme tip, creating a bigger bending moment at the rudder bearings.

As WYD has said many times, no matter what, it can be broke. When the loading exceeds the load capacity, they break, almost always completely, call that "giving it up" if you wish.

I agree with what you are saying but was using resilience in the mechanical sense of the term; Resilience (ie the ability to absorb mechanical energy which is relevant to crashing into something)

Sure that CF being a composite material you can tear apart some of the fibres and still have some strength left which is probably what Tele have done to their rudder.

If you hit something with a rudder, mechanical resilience matters. For a broach though, I doubt that the load is sudden enough to bring resilience into consideration and I would tend to think that it is a simple matter of speed being low enough so that stresses don't exceed MOR. I did like Desjoyeau solution of having rudders that lift up on impact, it designs out of the equation a lot of possibly nasty situations.

Thinking about CF resilience in an empirical way, it must be resilient as CF forks for bikes can resist a fair bit of abuse, mine certainly have hit a few potholes at high speed with no sign of delamination (the joy of riding on English lanes). I have heard stories of people breaking them but that was crash related (typically riding into the back of a van or a car!).