Jump to content


Harken Two-Speed Mainsheets


  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#1 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 921 posts

Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:26 AM

I haven't run across anyone with one of these. Are they any good vs. the more common gross tune/fine tune?

I'm considering the 4:1/8:1 with two Spinlock PX's side-by-side on my existing offshore-sized swivel base, vs. Harken's double cam cleat.

I had a fine tune before but didn't use it much due to the need to pull lots of line one-handed (I trim my own main). 30 footer, 300 sq. ft main with mid-ish boom sheeting, usually windy venue.




#2 Overbored

Overbored

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 197 posts
  • Location:So. Cal
  • Interests:Sailing, Flying, Skiing

Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:07 AM

I have a 4:1/16:1 cascade on 275 sq ft. going to a 6:1 / 18:1 with triple blocks with end boom sheeting.. I thought about going 4:1/8:1 with end boom but the lenght of line would be out of control . less length with mid boom but still might be hard to sheet with out the cascade. going from 4:1 to 8:1 means you will need double the sheet length and when close hauled and it will all be in the cockpit. with the double sheet and no cascade you can have the upper and lower blocks closer together when close hauled which will shorten the sheet length.

#3 allen

allen

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:SF Bay

Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:02 PM

If your boat layout allows the cascade system with two lines I would go with that. My friend has the 3:1-6:1 system and doesn't like it. He wishes he still had his 4:1 to a winch. In the case of his boat, which is the same as mine, you cannot use a fine-course cascade because the mainsheet is at the end of the boom and aft of the cockpit.

If what you want is 4:1 8:1 then just set up a 4:1 on your primary system and use a single block for an additional 2:1 on the fine adjust to get your 8:1 total.

You might find this of interest Mainsheet Systems

Allen

#4 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 921 posts

Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:44 PM

I've had various combinations of course/fine tune (cascade-type) over the years and have a good idea of the pros and cons. I'm wondering whether anyone specifically has a Harken Two-Speed Mainsheet (see their catalog) and whether they like it.

Allen, what you suggest is an alternative but requires reaching for a second line for the fine tune. I may do that, but WHY doesn't your friend like his 3:1/6:1 (assuming it is in fact Harken's Two-Speed system)?

From the illustrations on your site (should there be credit to Harken for those?), I'm considering using the "4:1/8:1 Swivel Base."

#5 Mauri Pro

Mauri Pro

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 390 posts

Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:50 PM

Hi BobJ,

I use to own a Henderson 30 and we had a 4:1/8:1 mainsheet double ended system (275 sq. ft.) and use to race in a Santana 35 (299 sq. ft.) with a 6:1/24:1 fine tune system. Both worked really well. Adding Spinlock PX cleats to the Harken double ended swivel base will help to release the mainsheet if you are playing it for puffs or chop.

The final decision about how much purchase and the configuration must go by looking at the actual distance between the boom and the traveler track and the position of the main trimmer (or driver) relative to the cleats.

Personal preference: I really like the Two Speed Mainsheet system (use a 2:1/4:1 system on my J24, 3:1/6:1 on a Hobie 33 and the 4:1/8:1 for the Henderson 30), Been able to pull less line around the markls is a big plus specially if you are trimming your own mainsail.

Let me know what is your actual boat (PM if you prefer) and we will be glad to recommend a set up base on the previous comments.

Best,

Juan

#6 jackdaw

jackdaw

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,183 posts
  • Location:Minneapolis, MN USA
  • Interests:The usual stuff.

Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:02 PM

Bob,

We have boats with both systems. On the 367 it needs the fine tune, so that's sorted. The 260 has a 3:1/6:1. It's a Easyblock but the Harken is similar. IMHO it's a good system for this size boat. A 4:1 would be a bitch sometimes, but fine tune would be overkill.

Posted Image

#7 allen

allen

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:SF Bay

Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:34 PM

BobJ,

I think that on my friends boat with the 3:1-6:1 there is an issue with the angle he needs to pull to release the sheets from the cleats when on the traveler, which is about 4 feet off the cockpit sole. I notice as well he has two separate ends rather than a spliced continuous loop, which is the way you really should rig these dual systems. But the most accurate answer is that I don't really know. I just know I asked him how he liked it as I was developing my system, which is the double ended system shown on the web page I linked, and he said he didn't like it. As we have the same boat I decided not to go with that and eventually ended up with what I have after trying a fine-course (didn't work in my setup) and several other systems.

Allen

PS. I added a note on my web page per your suggestion.

#8 jackdaw

jackdaw

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,183 posts
  • Location:Minneapolis, MN USA
  • Interests:The usual stuff.

Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:44 PM

Allen,

Slight Hijack here - I've thought about your idea of a continuous loop, but was worried about the constant diameter end spice on the double braid. Is there a (easy-ish) way to spice lines that does not so adversely effect strength?

#9 allen

allen

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:SF Bay

Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:49 PM

jackdaw,

Remember you are talking about a 3/8 or 7/16 line that probably has a 4000+ pound breaking strength and you are pulling on it by hand with probably 50 pounds max. Don't worry about the splice taking too much strength.

Allen

#10 pogen

pogen

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,828 posts
  • Location:SF Bay

Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:03 PM

Hi Bob,

I have just that system, 4:1/8:1 on my Olson 34, mainsheet is a single spliced loop, and I am really happy with it. Sheet attaches about 18" from end of boom, P is 38.8', E = 12.9', and the 8:1 is fine 99% of the time, load-wise.

Also I have the windward sheeting trav car, which I also like, except that I keep stepping on it and bending the top plate so that the sheave won't turn. :(

With the tiller and this main sheet system it is very nice to sail solo.


Posted Image

#11 P2 Marine

P2 Marine

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts
  • Location:=

Posted 20 June 2012 - 11:30 PM

Hi BobJ,

I use to own a Henderson 30 and we had a 4:1/8:1 mainsheet double ended system (275 sq. ft.) and use to race in a Santana 35 (299 sq. ft.) with a 6:1/24:1 fine tune system. Both worked really well. Adding Spinlock PX cleats to the Harken double ended swivel base will help to release the mainsheet if you are playing it for puffs or chop.

The final decision about how much purchase and the configuration must go by looking at the actual distance between the boom and the traveler track and the position of the main trimmer (or driver) relative to the cleats.

Personal preference: I really like the Two Speed Mainsheet system (use a 2:1/4:1 system on my J24, 3:1/6:1 on a Hobie 33 and the 4:1/8:1 for the Henderson 30), Been able to pull less line around the markls is a big plus specially if you are trimming your own mainsail.

Let me know what is your actual boat (PM if you prefer) and we will be glad to recommend a set up base on the previous comments.

Best,

Juan


Hi Juan,

I've used the 402 Swivel base on my Star, but I'm really curious about how you would fit two PX Powercleats to the arm of the 402. Do you have some sort of custom plate available? If you do, as the mainsheet exits the block do you experience any friction and/or chafe from the cheeks on the block?

Cheers,
Rob

#12 Vela Sailing Supply

Vela Sailing Supply

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 590 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:41 AM

Hi BobJ,

Windy venue, mid boom mainsheet system I think call for nothing less than a 4:1/8:1 as the Harken 383. That been said, the only thing you need to do is add two Spinlock PXR0810 and probably do some retrofiting. Keep in mind that you cannot use line bigger than 10mm for this.

Pogen's system looks good and clean, and you may want consider something like that with the addition of the Spinlock PXR's. If you click on the Product Document tab you can see dimensions and details of the PXR.

You can send me an email with a picture of your existing set up and we can work something out to improve it.

Regards,

#13 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 921 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:54 AM

Rob, I have the #1574 Midrange swivel base with offshore cam cleat, not the 402. After fixing some wet core in the cockpit floor, I wanted the wider fastener spacing afforded by the #1574. It also has more surface area where the cam mounts - enough for two PX's.

The two Spinlock PX's in my parts box are the old style that take an honest 3/8" line (too bad Spinlock downsized them slightly several years ago). With the SS plates Spinlock sold as an accessory (also have two in the parts box), I can mount the PX's side-by side on the #1574. I used a PX for a long time when I had a 4:1/16:1 setup on this boat. I just found I didn't use the fine tune much single-handed.

Rod, a problem with the 383 is pulling it from across the cockpit, especially off the wind when the block can fall over from lack of tension. I like the swivel base better than having that clunky cam assembly moving around on the traveler. Pogen, do you ever have that problem?

Several of you are are right about the line - with 8:1 that's a LOT of mainsheet laying on the cockpit floor upwind - I figure 8x15.5 feet = 124 feet. Hmmmm.

Good info everybody (and a classy response from Allen, BTW). I'll try to get a photo PM'd to a couple of you who've asked.

#14 GLX

GLX

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Location:Norwalk, CT USA
  • Interests:Sailboat Racing
    Sailboat historical

Posted 21 June 2012 - 03:40 PM

I have a IOR 3/4 ton sloop very similar to DB1-2. (except mainsail is even bigger, by comparison). Instant mainsheet adjustment is MANDATORY just to STEER this boat. Despite the added clutter, I have resorted to a mid cockpit console (A la Etchells etc.) arrangement for the trimming end (w/swivel cleat). Traveler is aft at deck level over rudder post.
Being able to instantly release the sheet under load is most important consideration.
I want to upgrade to the heaviest duty Harken offshore swivel base #1574???, possibly retrofitting one of the spinlock cleats, OR one of those TRIGGER cleats (though I have no experience these.)
Has anyone tried a TRIGGER with this type of setup?
Excellent discussion relating to an issue I have struggled with for a while now.

Attached Files



#15 allen

allen

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:SF Bay

Posted 21 June 2012 - 03:58 PM

I have a IOR 3/4 ton sloop very similar to DB1-2. (except mainsail is even bigger, by comparison). Instant mainsheet adjustment is MANDATORY just to STEER this boat. Despite the added clutter, I have resorted to a mid cockpit console (A la Etchells etc.) arrangement for the trimming end (w/swivel cleat). Traveler is aft at deck level over rudder post.
Being able to instantly release the sheet under load is most important consideration.
I want to upgrade to the heaviest duty Harken offshore swivel base #1574???, possibly retrofitting one of the spinlock cleats, OR one of those TRIGGER cleats (though I have no experience these.)
Has anyone tried a TRIGGER with this type of setup?
Excellent discussion relating to an issue I have struggled with for a while now.


GLX,

I have a question about the picture. It looks like you have shown a fiddle block on the traveler but only 3 lines going up for what would be something like a 4:1 system (lower than that because one line exits closer to the mast but that is a detail). Is this the case or do you use all of the fiddle block and have a 5:1 or 6:1 with more blocks on the mast than what you have shown?

I have no experience with the spinlock cleats but a boat I crew on uses them for some control lines and the skipper says they can be difficult to get to release under load. In his case the control lines are the topping lift and foreguy and they can load up against each other and the afterguy. That load may be more than you would see in a mainsheet but I just raise it as a heads up.


Allen

#16 GLX

GLX

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Location:Norwalk, CT USA
  • Interests:Sailboat Racing
    Sailboat historical

Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:56 PM


I have a IOR 3/4 ton sloop very similar to DB1-2. (except mainsail is even bigger, by comparison). Instant mainsheet adjustment is MANDATORY just to STEER this boat. Despite the added clutter, I have resorted to a mid cockpit console (A la Etchells etc.) arrangement for the trimming end (w/swivel cleat). Traveler is aft at deck level over rudder post.
Being able to instantly release the sheet under load is most important consideration.
I want to upgrade to the heaviest duty Harken offshore swivel base #1574???, possibly retrofitting one of the spinlock cleats, OR one of those TRIGGER cleats (though I have no experience these.)
Has anyone tried a TRIGGER with this type of setup?
Excellent discussion relating to an issue I have struggled with for a while now.


GLX,

I have a question about the picture. It looks like you have shown a fiddle block on the traveler but only 3 lines going up for what would be something like a 4:1 system (lower than that because one line exits closer to the mast but that is a detail). Is this the case or do you use all of the fiddle block and have a 5:1 or 6:1 with more blocks on the mast than what you have shown?

I have no experience with the spinlock cleats but a boat I crew on uses them for some control lines and the skipper says they can be difficult to get to release under load. In his case the control lines are the topping lift and foreguy and they can load up against each other and the afterguy. That load may be more than you would see in a mainsheet but I just raise it as a heads up.


Allen


Point well taken.
It may well be that there is no spinlock cleat up to this task.
The drawing is crap with many details left out.
I only included it to show how the system was lead forward. There are actually 2 lines running beneath the booom and then down to 2 cleats on the console, one being a fine tune (extra purchase thrown in between boom and cleat.) So the load on a single cleat, is split in half. And the cockpit floor is always a tangled mess.

#17 allen

allen

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:SF Bay

Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:07 PM



I have a IOR 3/4 ton sloop very similar to DB1-2. (except mainsail is even bigger, by comparison). Instant mainsheet adjustment is MANDATORY just to STEER this boat. Despite the added clutter, I have resorted to a mid cockpit console (A la Etchells etc.) arrangement for the trimming end (w/swivel cleat). Traveler is aft at deck level over rudder post.
Being able to instantly release the sheet under load is most important consideration.
I want to upgrade to the heaviest duty Harken offshore swivel base #1574???, possibly retrofitting one of the spinlock cleats, OR one of those TRIGGER cleats (though I have no experience these.)
Has anyone tried a TRIGGER with this type of setup?
Excellent discussion relating to an issue I have struggled with for a while now.


GLX,

I have a question about the picture. It looks like you have shown a fiddle block on the traveler but only 3 lines going up for what would be something like a 4:1 system (lower than that because one line exits closer to the mast but that is a detail). Is this the case or do you use all of the fiddle block and have a 5:1 or 6:1 with more blocks on the mast than what you have shown?

I have no experience with the spinlock cleats but a boat I crew on uses them for some control lines and the skipper says they can be difficult to get to release under load. In his case the control lines are the topping lift and foreguy and they can load up against each other and the afterguy. That load may be more than you would see in a mainsheet but I just raise it as a heads up.


Allen


Point well taken.
It may well be that there is no spinlock cleat up to this task.
The drawing is crap with many details left out.
I only included it to show how the system was lead forward. There are actually 2 lines running beneath the booom and then down to 2 cleats on the console, one being a fine tune (extra purchase thrown in between boom and cleat.) So the load on a single cleat, is split in half. And the cockpit floor is always a tangled mess.


Thanks,

I understand the fine tune below the boom. So you must have a double and a single on the tail of the boom probably going to a double on the traveler rather than a fiddle. You then go forward to a double and down to the course and fine. This is then 6:1 on the course and maybe 24:1 or something on the fine.

I will point out that bring two lines down does not split the load on the cleats compared to just bringing one line down and terminating it on the traveler. The cleat load will still be 1/6 of the boom load. Fine point.

Allen

#18 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 921 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:18 PM

GLX, I wouldn't give up on the Spinlock idea. Especially from a stationary point like the swivel base, I found it much easier to release than a cam cleat when really loaded. With the older PX I had, it seemed that using it with line sized close to the PX's capacity made it easier to release since the "foot" in the PX that holds the line was not as far down when locked, i.e. those small, highly-loaded control lines are harder for the PX to release. The only problem I had with the PX before was because the swivel base was mounted on the cockpit sole, I had to use my toe to lock the PX - it was too low to pull down on the line. I have to do that with the current cam cleat as well (even with Harken's wedge kit).

Since most of the fine tune hardware is still installed, I've decided to go back to the stock 6:1 gross tune (from my current 5:1) and add a 2:1 fine tune. Also I'll replace the offshore cam cleat with one of the PX's. I suspect I'll be fine with the 6:1 most of the time but on those long, heavy air upwind legs I'll play the 12:1 instead. I'm thinking the 8:1 two-speed will create too much spaghetti.

Juan, my old fine-tune was led to the cockpit sides so I think your idea (via PM) is the way I'll go.

#19 Mauri Pro

Mauri Pro

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 390 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 10:38 PM

Juan, my old fine-tune was led to the cockpit sides so I think your idea (via PM) is the way I'll go.


BobJ,

Glad to help anytime. PM or give me a call and we can go over part #'s.

Best,

#20 Benoz

Benoz

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 13 posts
  • Location:Bunbury. Western Australia

Posted 22 June 2012 - 04:44 AM

Hi BobJ,

I use to own a Henderson 30 and we had a 4:1/8:1 mainsheet double ended system (275 sq. ft.) and use to race in a Santana 35 (299 sq. ft.) with a 6:1/24:1 fine tune system. Both worked really well. Adding Spinlock PX cleats to the Harken double ended swivel base will help to release the mainsheet if you are playing it for puffs or chop.

The final decision about how much purchase and the configuration must go by looking at the actual distance between the boom and the traveler track and the position of the main trimmer (or driver) relative to the cleats.

Personal preference: I really like the Two Speed Mainsheet system (use a 2:1/4:1 system on my J24, 3:1/6:1 on a Hobie 33 and the 4:1/8:1 for the Henderson 30), Been able to pull less line around the markls is a big plus specially if you are trimming your own mainsail.

Let me know what is your actual boat (PM if you prefer) and we will be glad to recommend a set up base on the previous comments.

Best,

Juan


Hi everyone, sorry to jump in but I have a harken 4:1-8:1 system on my boat which has turned out to be overkill, miles of rope on the cockpit floor...does anyone know if there is a way to rerig it to run 3:1-6:1 or even 2:1-4:1? I'd go down to the boat and try to figure it out but I'm on holiday in Thailand.

#21 Mauri Pro

Mauri Pro

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 390 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:39 PM

Hi everyone, sorry to jump in but I have a harken 4:1-8:1 system on my boat which has turned out to be overkill, miles of rope on the cockpit floor...does anyone know if there is a way to rerig it to run 3:1-6:1 or even 2:1-4:1? I'd go down to the boat and try to figure it out but I'm on holiday in Thailand.


Hi Benoz,

Yes there is: For all purposes I am going to assume that you have a Midrange size system.

Posted Image

To reduce the 4:1/8:1 to a 3:1/6:1 replace the traveler block [B] for a HAR2602 Harken Double Block and the first boom block [A] for a HAR2600 Harken Single Block
Posted Image

To make it a 2:1/4:1 : Replace [B] with a HAR2600 Harken Single Block and leave only one double block in the boom.
Posted Image

Hope this helps. Enjoy your time in Thailand!

Best,

Juan

#22 GLX

GLX

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Location:Norwalk, CT USA
  • Interests:Sailboat Racing
    Sailboat historical

Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:29 PM




I have a IOR 3/4 ton sloop very similar to DB1-2. (except mainsail is even bigger, by comparison). Instant mainsheet adjustment is MANDATORY just to STEER this boat. Despite the added clutter, I have resorted to a mid cockpit console (A la Etchells etc.) arrangement for the trimming end (w/swivel cleat). Traveler is aft at deck level over rudder post.
Being able to instantly release the sheet under load is most important consideration.
I want to upgrade to the heaviest duty Harken offshore swivel base #1574???, possibly retrofitting one of the spinlock cleats, OR one of those TRIGGER cleats (though I have no experience these.)
Has anyone tried a TRIGGER with this type of setup?
Excellent discussion relating to an issue I have struggled with for a while now.


GLX,

I have a question about the picture. It looks like you have shown a fiddle block on the traveler but only 3 lines going up for what would be something like a 4:1 system (lower than that because one line exits closer to the mast but that is a detail). Is this the case or do you use all of the fiddle block and have a 5:1 or 6:1 with more blocks on the mast than what you have shown?

I have no experience with the spinlock cleats but a boat I crew on uses them for some control lines and the skipper says they can be difficult to get to release under load. In his case the control lines are the topping lift and foreguy and they can load up against each other and the afterguy. That load may be more than you would see in a mainsheet but I just raise it as a heads up.


Allen


Point well taken.
It may well be that there is no spinlock cleat up to this task.
The drawing is crap with many details left out.
I only included it to show how the system was lead forward. There are actually 2 lines running beneath the booom and then down to 2 cleats on the console, one being a fine tune (extra purchase thrown in between boom and cleat.) So the load on a single cleat, is split in half. And the cockpit floor is always a tangled mess.


Thanks,

I understand the fine tune below the boom. So you must have a double and a single on the tail of the boom probably going to a double on the traveler rather than a fiddle. You then go forward to a double and down to the course and fine. This is then 6:1 on the course and maybe 24:1 or something on the fine.

I will point out that bring two lines down does not split the load on the cleats compared to just bringing one line down and terminating it on the traveler. The cleat load will still be 1/6 of the boom load. Fine point.

Allen

Allen,
You have it right, about the loads etc. , and, again, thanks for the input.
My point is, without trying to make things too complicated, that, with a mainsail of this size (almost 350 sf.);
you're on the ragged edge of what is workable with a dinghy style mainsheet trimming arrangement (using swivel bases, cam cleats etc.) and not have to use winches. A good traveller control help is imperative.
But having to do a 'big ease', when the wind is up can be brutal.
I have heard of people in the J/105 class using the Spinlock cleat with Harken swivel base to mixed reviews.
But it sounds like this is the best combination available. And I'm not hearing any raves about the trigger cleat.

Randy

#23 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 921 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:54 PM

Randy, you might look at how they rigged the mainsheet on the new J/111. That main is much bigger than mine but they made it manageable with a cascade-type system off the boom end.

A couple of friends race them here in breezy SF and I haven't heard any complaints (about the mainsheet anyway).

#24 allen

allen

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:SF Bay

Posted 22 June 2012 - 03:21 PM





I have a IOR 3/4 ton sloop very similar to DB1-2. (except mainsail is even bigger, by comparison). Instant mainsheet adjustment is MANDATORY just to STEER this boat. Despite the added clutter, I have resorted to a mid cockpit console (A la Etchells etc.) arrangement for the trimming end (w/swivel cleat). Traveler is aft at deck level over rudder post.
Being able to instantly release the sheet under load is most important consideration.
I want to upgrade to the heaviest duty Harken offshore swivel base #1574???, possibly retrofitting one of the spinlock cleats, OR one of those TRIGGER cleats (though I have no experience these.)
Has anyone tried a TRIGGER with this type of setup?
Excellent discussion relating to an issue I have struggled with for a while now.


GLX,

I have a question about the picture. It looks like you have shown a fiddle block on the traveler but only 3 lines going up for what would be something like a 4:1 system (lower than that because one line exits closer to the mast but that is a detail). Is this the case or do you use all of the fiddle block and have a 5:1 or 6:1 with more blocks on the mast than what you have shown?

I have no experience with the spinlock cleats but a boat I crew on uses them for some control lines and the skipper says they can be difficult to get to release under load. In his case the control lines are the topping lift and foreguy and they can load up against each other and the afterguy. That load may be more than you would see in a mainsheet but I just raise it as a heads up.


Allen


Point well taken.
It may well be that there is no spinlock cleat up to this task.
The drawing is crap with many details left out.
I only included it to show how the system was lead forward. There are actually 2 lines running beneath the booom and then down to 2 cleats on the console, one being a fine tune (extra purchase thrown in between boom and cleat.) So the load on a single cleat, is split in half. And the cockpit floor is always a tangled mess.


Thanks,

I understand the fine tune below the boom. So you must have a double and a single on the tail of the boom probably going to a double on the traveler rather than a fiddle. You then go forward to a double and down to the course and fine. This is then 6:1 on the course and maybe 24:1 or something on the fine.

I will point out that bring two lines down does not split the load on the cleats compared to just bringing one line down and terminating it on the traveler. The cleat load will still be 1/6 of the boom load. Fine point.

Allen

Allen,
You have it right, about the loads etc. , and, again, thanks for the input.
My point is, without trying to make things too complicated, that, with a mainsail of this size (almost 350 sf.);
you're on the ragged edge of what is workable with a dinghy style mainsheet trimming arrangement (using swivel bases, cam cleats etc.) and not have to use winches. A good traveller control help is imperative.
But having to do a 'big ease', when the wind is up can be brutal.
I have heard of people in the J/105 class using the Spinlock cleat with Harken swivel base to mixed reviews.
But it sounds like this is the best combination available. And I'm not hearing any raves about the trigger cleat.

Randy


I have tried probably half a dozen mainsheet systems on my boat including fine-course, winch, 4:1, 5:1, 6:1, dual winches on the cabin top, and probably others. What I ended up with is the dual ended system with one end aft at the boom end and one end on a winch at the cabin top. This is nice when I am alone as I can easily reach the cabin top winch. In a race, we have the mainsheet trimmer aft near the traveler so he can work both the sheet and the traveler. When we need to move things quickly, we put two people on the mainsheet, one on each end. If we need more force, we can use the winch. This works for us but is not a minimum crew system in a race.

In terms of swivel bases and cam cleats, I have tried swivel bases and found them more of a pain than a help. What we have now is a fixed cleat near a hex-ratchet block. The cleat is always where you want it and you just push down to engage it.

The main point I want to bring up here is that all cam cleats are not created equal. I have Ronstan, Harken, some antique, and one Garhauer cam cleats. By far the easiest to use is the Harken. They have some patent and there is just no comparison in how easy it is to use them. So, before you give up on cam cleats, make sure you try a Harken like the 150 cam cleat.

Below is a photo and a sketch of my system if you are interested in trying something unconventional. There is a trick to this system in that you need to arrange things so that the aft block on the boom is at the correct angle or it will capsize. Our final geometry makes it so that the lines in the fiddle block do not rub on the sine up to the aft block. The sketch shows a more straight forward way to hook things up with the little red line providing the anti-capsize force. The only thing I would change if I had to do it over again is to move the cabin top block aft so gain a bit more purchase. Done that way the purchase would be 5.5:1 where mine is more like 5.2:1. Notice also the continuous control line on the traveler. This greatly reduces the string in the cockpit if you can implement it without making a trip hazard.

Allen

Posted Image

Posted Image

#25 Benoz

Benoz

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 13 posts
  • Location:Bunbury. Western Australia

Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:43 PM


Hi everyone, sorry to jump in but I have a harken 4:1-8:1 system on my boat which has turned out to be overkill, miles of rope on the cockpit floor...does anyone know if there is a way to rerig it to run 3:1-6:1 or even 2:1-4:1? I'd go down to the boat and try to figure it out but I'm on holiday in Thailand.


Hi Benoz,

Yes there is: For all purposes I am going to assume that you have a Midrange size system.

Posted Image

To reduce the 4:1/8:1 to a 3:1/6:1 replace the traveler block [B] for a HAR2602 Harken Double Block and the first boom block [A] for a HAR2600 Harken Single Block
Posted Image

To make it a 2:1/4:1 : Replace [B] with a HAR2600 Harken Single Block and leave only one double block in the boom.
Posted Image

Hope this helps. Enjoy your time in Thailand!

Best,

Juan


Sorry Juan no - as near as I can tell harken midrange 383 - see www.harken.com/pdf/4539.pdf

Certainly single fiddle blocks top and bottom. Why do I have a horrible feeling I'm out another $1000 to fix my stuff up? Hmmmm yachts...

#26 allen

allen

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:SF Bay

Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:16 PM



Hi everyone, sorry to jump in but I have a harken 4:1-8:1 system on my boat which has turned out to be overkill, miles of rope on the cockpit floor...does anyone know if there is a way to rerig it to run 3:1-6:1 or even 2:1-4:1? I'd go down to the boat and try to figure it out but I'm on holiday in Thailand.


Hi Benoz,

Yes there is: For all purposes I am going to assume that you have a Midrange size system.

Posted Image

To reduce the 4:1/8:1 to a 3:1/6:1 replace the traveler block [B] for a HAR2602 Harken Double Block and the first boom block [A] for a HAR2600 Harken Single Block
Posted Image

To make it a 2:1/4:1 : Replace [B] with a HAR2600 Harken Single Block and leave only one double block in the boom.
Posted Image

Hope this helps. Enjoy your time in Thailand!

Best,

Juan


Sorry Juan no - as near as I can tell harken midrange 383 - see www.harken.com/pdf/4539.pdf

Certainly single fiddle blocks top and bottom. Why do I have a horrible feeling I'm out another $1000 to fix my stuff up? Hmmmm yachts...


Remove the single block on the lower assembly of your 383 (or secure it out of the way for trial purposes). Run the line through the cleat and around the lower sheave of the double fiddle. Up to the boom and through the larger sheaves in the same direction (CW or CCW) as you used for the lower sheaves. Then bring the line back to the traveler but go around the upper sheave in the opposite direction so CCW if you went CW around the lower sheave. Then back up to the boom where you place a single block on another bail athwartship. Down to the traveler block, and repeat the paths on the other side of the double fiddle block.

The trick here is reversing the direction of the line as it goes through the upper sheave so that you can take it clear of the other lines and use your new single block.


Allen
L-36.com

#27 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 404 posts

Posted 25 June 2012 - 07:21 AM

Anyone tried Garhauer's doubled ended 3:1/6:1 system? It's in their catalog as a two speed vang but I don't see how it's different than a Harken 383 or wouldn't work as a mainsheet. It doesn't have a ratchet, but it's less than 1/3 the price of a Harken 383.

#28 BobJ

BobJ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 921 posts

Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:35 AM

I have sitting here a Harken 021 dinghy block from my parts box. Despite its simplicity, in design and construction it's a work of art.

Garhauer doesn't do that for me. Is Harken worth the extra cost? For me, yes.

#29 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 404 posts

Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:13 AM

I always thought the Harken black plastic with metal strap blocks looked kinda clunky. I like the smoother lines and more minimal design of their newer stuff better.
Posted ImagePosted Image
I like the Garhauer better myself. Now their travelers and clutches on the other hand, too much Russian tractor factory.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users