371 replies to this topic

[k2mav]

I would have to think this thread must give the Oracle boys something to laugh about over the morning coffee. " ok guys lets see what the experts have come up with today ". One of the great AC maxims, " Ye must lead them astray ".

Yes, but we are having fun too! Just look at this PhotoCHOP of the rudder. hahaa this must be a joke. Compare Aspect Ratio
 AC45FoiltoucAR.jpg   221.42K   365 downloads

[onimod]

Aaaaagh!
I was looking at the exif and it not necessarily dodgy on it's own.
Now that I have read back more than I page...well......dickhead.
Thanks for the lesson everyone.

[maxmini]

I would have to think this thread must give the Oracle boys something to laugh about over the morning coffee. " ok guys lets see what the experts have come up with today ". One of the great AC maxims, " Ye must lead them astray ".

Yes, but we are having fun too! Just look at this PhotoCHOP of the rudder. hahaa this must be a joke. Compare Aspect Ratio
 AC45FoiltoucAR.jpg   221.42K   365 downloads

Very true . The truly funny this is that with all this attention to the bottom , they may have had a 20ft taller wing and we never would have known it . Its all about making people look the other way

Case in point . Not too long ago there was a race car team thay developed a new car for the series . All the spy photos were analized to the last degree about body shape , wing size etc . It wasn't until the truck driver delivering the car to the track noted that both the front and rear wheels / tires were exactly the same size , a ridacal departure from the norm in this series, that the secret was found out .

[Tornado-Cat]

The rudder has been very well PS or is just genuine, knowing that the test was not made on this hull.
Seems by looking closely (but maybe the fruit of my imagination) that the other rudder has a fence in the middle.

[k2mav]

I would have to think this thread must give the Oracle boys something to laugh about over the morning coffee. " ok guys lets see what the experts have come up with today ". One of the great AC maxims, " Ye must lead them astray ".

Yes, but we are having fun too! Just look at this PhotoCHOP of the rudder. hahaa this must be a joke. Compare Aspect Ratio
 AC45FoiltoucAR.jpg   221.42K   365 downloads

Just checked proportional hull/rudder measures comparing the two pics, and the height of the rudder is about the same... so NO chop. just an illusion.

[K38BOB]

With all the photographers around the bay, I wonder why there are only these few images to view. It's not as if the AC45s don't command attention when they are out. . .

you need a boat fast enough to keep pace with a photog with knowledge of when/where- during week day...

some have tried to get close (like SL33) but they sail away....

[nav]

Here ya go - someone likes your thinking!

http://noticeboard.a...12/07/PI_14.pdf

[Xlot]

^^

Thanks. Bloody late for asking the clarification, though

[~Stingray~]

^ Prompted by the AC45/SF foils, maybe?

[nav]

^^

Thanks. Bloody late for asking the clarification, though

Maybe - didn't help 'them' much though did it!

3. Not enough information is supplied to give a definitive answer. The item shown could be a daggerboard.
4. Not enough information is supplied to give a definitive answer. The item shown could be a daggerboard.
5. Not enough information is supplied to give a definitive answer. The item shown could be a daggerboard.
6. Not enough information is supplied to give a definitive answer. The item shown could be a daggerboard.
7. Not applicable.



Helped us though - to know* what they are pondering (or what they think others might be doing).

*unless this is just a more refined 'photoshop'

[Xlot]

BTW, confirmed my recollection that wands would be considered as appendages and therefore outlawed. Superseded by the req'mt that foils be manually adjusted, anyway.

[dumper]

can we get an answer to the original question, did oracle actually make a foiling ac45 or is it all just shits and giggles for the OR design team?

[kmcfast]

Spit must have hired the Bozo that photoshopped Obama's Birth certificate.

[pointyend]

[bhyde]

Pretty funny thread. Plenty of conspiracy theories running around.
Whether the L-boards are Shopped or not to hide the details of the configuration, I can't say. But I can say that at least one of the boats is sailing with L-boards in SF. I know this because I've actually seen them first hand on the water. Several people at my YC have also seen them. It's not a huge secret.

[Tornado-Cat]

Pretty funny thread. Plenty of conspiracy theories running around.
Whether the L-boards are Shopped or not to hide the details of the configuration, I can't say. But I can say that at least one of the boats is sailing with L-boards in SF. I know this because I've actually seen them first hand on the water. Several people at my YC have also seen them. It's not a huge secret.

So, if you have seen it, is one of the picture correct and, if yes, which one. And do you have seen BOTH because one proves nothing. Even the 2 can't prove much as it is just tests.

[bhyde]

Pretty funny thread. Plenty of conspiracy theories running around.
Whether the L-boards are Shopped or not to hide the details of the configuration, I can't say. But I can say that at least one of the boats is sailing with L-boards in SF. I know this because I've actually seen them first hand on the water. Several people at my YC have also seen them. It's not a huge secret.

So, if you have seen it, is one of the picture correct and, if yes, which one. And do you have seen BOTH because one proves nothing. Even the 2 can't prove much as it is just tests.

Looked like a straight L's to me, but I really wasn't close enough to see that level of fine detail (+/- 300ft). Additionally, with the wind at about 12kts, I never saw the boats "foil" in the moth sense. They might in stronger conditions, but I didn't see it.

[Tornado-Cat]

Pretty funny thread. Plenty of conspiracy theories running around.
Whether the L-boards are Shopped or not to hide the details of the configuration, I can't say. But I can say that at least one of the boats is sailing with L-boards in SF. I know this because I've actually seen them first hand on the water. Several people at my YC have also seen them. It's not a huge secret.

So, if you have seen it, is one of the picture correct and, if yes, which one. And do you have seen BOTH because one proves nothing. Even the 2 can't prove much as it is just tests.

Looked like a straight L's to me, but I really wasn't close enough to see that level of fine detail (+/- 300ft). Additionally, with the wind at about 12kts, I never saw the boats "foil" in the moth sense. They might in stronger conditions, but I didn't see it.

Thanks bhyde.

[~Stingray~]

can we get an answer to the original question, did oracle actually make a foiling ac45 or is it all just shits and giggles for the OR design team?

It could well be, if JS did pull a send-up. From at here http://www.facebook....27164370&type=3

Hilite mine



???

[dumper]

can we get an answer to the original question, did oracle actually make a foiling ac45 or is it all just shits and giggles for the OR design team?

It could well be, if JS did pull a send-up. From at here http://www.facebook....27164370&type=3

Hilite mine



???

Haha that's funny

[~Stingray~]

^ Agrred, very funny if true. That damn photo made the FP because (probably) of Clean jumping all over it earlier in the thread.
JS must be laughing, if he realizes!

[nav]

Sorted....



Scientists Develop Method for Authenticating Digital Images by Analyzing 'Noise'


http://www.albany.ed...6046.php?WT.eml

[~Stingray~]

I wonder if this one was touched up or not? From Feb, this foil almost looks like it had a torpedo shape at the bottom.. via my teeny screen anyway


http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2012-02-22#.T_s7MoF5mc1

[bruno]

Do you really think the teams aren't looking at endplates, etc?

[Tornado-Cat]

The only interest of this picture is that it seems to be the starboard foil. However it gets even more clear that they want us to focus on something else than the tiller foil and on possible C foils.

[Philippe_Chaplin]

To foil or not to foil...


In the last Bol d'Or in Geneva, some of the local experts in the field where discussing technology, there was Thomas Jung from The Mirabeaud LX ( http://mlxfoiler.wordpress.com/ ), Hughes de Turkeheim from Pi28 ( http://www.p28foiler.com/le-bateau/ ) and... EB from Alinghi. What I could get was that an automatic control in a somewhat smaller boat (from Moth to around 30 feet) is fine. For a bigger boat, it wont do, therefore either you try to react manually with maybe hydraulic aid (A5) or you need a complete sofisticated control system (e.g. giro, hydraulic aid and a computer in between). That was partly explained by EB refering to the 3 pairs of foils that we saw on A5, the S shape revealed first. The C shape pair and the I shaped ones that finally were used in the last race. EB said that you could find a good tune for the previous foils but changing conditions, wind, waves, angle vs wind made the ever tuning so complicated that it was not so productive in the end. True to say that A5 designer never intended to really foil but at least to diminish wetted surface and probably to help the close wind angle. That beeing only my two cents...

[Doug Lord]

I don't know about that ,Philippe: see the picture below of Dr. Bradfields 40' Skat which uses a wand based altitude control system. He would say that the there is no size limit for such a control system.The Moth and Mirabaud both use wand based automatic systems but the altitude control system on a surface piercing foiler like Hydroptere is 100% automatic, regulated by speed. The problem with the AC is that wands(or electronic altitude control systems) aren't legal but pivoting the daggerboard is. I would think that pretty much means that steady state foiling would require manual altitude control(as you mention) by pivoting the board.

Attached Files

•  Skat bradfield 40 wand illustrated.jpg   25.93K   52 downloads

[nav]

Months ago I put up a quote (lost now) from a French? multihull designer who stated that while foils were standard in certain classes where they overcame design restrictions they would not necessarily be advantageous in classes with fewer restrictions.

Foil shape was also often determined by class restrictions and placement, rather than being 'universal'.

And even in a class were there was a clear benefit, under some conditions the drag penalty overrode other gains.

So if we are to believe him - we can't simply say " 'C' foils (for example) work best", nor "always use your foils if you have them", nor even that "you need them" in the first place.

[Doug Lord]

When you consider that most ocean racing multihulls use foils, and a good percentage of production catamarans 20' and under use foils along with a growing number of monohulls using rudder foils, curved foils and DSS I'd say there was good evidence that foils used for "foil assist" are pretty well proven across the board.

[nav]

When you consider that most ocean racing multihulls use foils, and a good percentage of production catamarans 20' and under use foils along with a growing number of monohulls using rudder foils, curved foils and DSS I'd say there was good evidence that foils used for "foil assist" are pretty well proven across the board.

Yep, could be. Sounds a bit simplistic though, (most cars have cup holders, so,,,), and of course most sail boats have 'foils' afterall.
But how well researched are these efforts ^^, (some are obviously), and how much comes down to following the crowd, giving buyers what they perceive as cutting edge etc?
Proven as a better solution to the constraints of a class, sure. Proven to be better in all situations when unconstrained by design restrictions?

[Doug Lord]

When you consider that most ocean racing multihulls use foils, and a good percentage of production catamarans 20' and under use foils along with a growing number of monohulls using rudder foils, curved foils and DSS I'd say there was good evidence that foils used for "foil assist" are pretty well proven across the board.

Yep, could be. Sounds a bit simplistic though, (most cars have cup holders, so,,,), and of course most sail boats have 'foils' afterall.
But how well researched are these efforts ^^, (some are obviously), and how much comes down to following the crowd, giving buyers what they perceive as cutting edge etc?
Proven as a better solution to the constraints of a class, sure. Proven to be better in all situations when unconstrained by design restrictions?

====================
In a well designed and engineered application, yes.

[dogwatch]

I heard this story for the first time yesterday and somehow it made me think of this thread. http://en.wikipedia....during_Olympics


Iconic mustache during Olympics
In an era when other swimmers, male and female, were shaving body hair, he swam with a mustache. When asked why he initially grew one he stated "I grew the mustache because a coach in college said I couldn't grow one." Spitz said he originally grew the mustache as a form of rebellion against the clean-cut look imposed on him in college. “It took a long time to grow,” he said. It took four months to grow, but Spitz was proud of it, he decided the mustache was a "good-luck piece."

Mark Spitz is quoted as saying, "When I went to the Olympics, I had every intention of shaving the mustache off, but I realized I was getting so many comments about it—and everybody was talking about it—that I decided to keep it. I had some fun with a Russian coach who asked me if my mustache slowed me down. I said, 'No, as a matter of fact, it deflects water away from my mouth, allows my rear end to rise and make me bullet-shaped in the water, and that's what had allowed me to swim so great.' He's translating as fast as he can for the other coaches, and the following year every Russian male swimmer had a mustache."

[SW Sailor]

Maybe OR will put mustaches on their foils and everyone else will follow suit.

[eric e]

from the multihull forum

check the rudders

http://forums.sailin...0

Attached Files

•  flying.jpg   172.04K   194 downloads

[Rennmaus]

I heard this story for the first time yesterday and somehow it made me think of this thread. http://en.wikipedia....during_Olympics


Iconic mustache during Olympics
In an era when other swimmers, male and female, were shaving body hair, he swam with a mustache. When asked why he initially grew one he stated "I grew the mustache because a coach in college said I couldn't grow one." Spitz said he originally grew the mustache as a form of rebellion against the clean-cut look imposed on him in college. "It took a long time to grow," he said. It took four months to grow, but Spitz was proud of it, he decided the mustache was a "good-luck piece."

Mark Spitz is quoted as saying, "When I went to the Olympics, I had every intention of shaving the mustache off, but I realized I was getting so many comments about it—and everybody was talking about it—that I decided to keep it. I had some fun with a Russian coach who asked me if my mustache slowed me down. I said, 'No, as a matter of fact, it deflects water away from my mouth, allows my rear end to rise and make me bullet-shaped in the water, and that's what had allowed me to swim so great.' He's translating as fast as he can for the other coaches, and the following year every Russian male swimmer had a mustache."

Shouldn't this post be in the "Artemis" thread, I mean, talking about a stache?

[dogwatch]

Shouldn't this post be in the "Artemis" thread, I mean, talking about a stache?

The moustache is a mere instantiation of the concept at hand, which is techno-obfustication. I agree that if one could attach the latter to Artemis and link the physical to the metaphysical, then the parable would indeed become perfect.

[nav]

from the multihull forum

check the rudders

'Shopped'!

[Doug Lord]

from the multihull forum

check the rudders

'Shopped'!

=====================
This is the "Flying Phantom" F18 using a foil system designed by Martin Fischer. An early version of this system was used on the "Mayfly" A Class cat. "L" rudders and "s" boards.......

[eric e]

This is the Flying Phantom this was origionally going to go to the olympic trials but wasn't finished in time.
http://www.catsailor...r=250772&page=1

[SW Sailor]

I wonder if this one was touched up or not? From Feb, this foil almost looks like it had a torpedo shape at the bottom.. via my teeny screen anyway


http://www.latitude3...22#.T_s7MoF5mc1

Do you have to be a conspiracy theorist to join SA ?

I can assure you these are real, but they don't work until you reach a certain speed

[F-18 5150]

from the multihull forum

check the rudders

'Shopped'!

NAV That is not shopped. It is also not a F-18. Hulls are lighter beam is wider. sails are bigger. Rudders and Daggers would both be illegal in F-18 competion.

[pjh]

from the multihull forum

check the rudders

'Shopped'!

NAV That is not shopped. It is also not a F-18. Hulls are lighter beam is wider. sails are bigger. Rudders and Daggers would both be illegal in F-18 competion.

It that an F-18? Wicked looking device. I'd love to sail it.

[dumper]

what would they have photoshopped in or out of the original photos?

[~HHN92~]

I wonder if this one was touched up or not? From Feb, this foil almost looks like it had a torpedo shape at the bottom.. via my teeny screen anyway


http://www.latitude3...22#.T_s7MoF5mc1

Do you have to be a conspiracy theorist to join SA ?

I can assure you these are real, but they don't work until you reach a certain speed

There you go, stirring the pot, like you know something the rest don't.

I mean, you're just an old monohull sailor, aren't you?

[eric e]

"I can assure you these are real, but they don't work until you reach a certain speed"


which presumably is what alinghi found with their funny foils

but not well enough to beat the big dog in any wind above medium

so they went light winds only, ditched the funny foils

and got slaughtered by the wing's higher and faster abilities anyway...

but certainly it is a great advantage to oracle to know what works and at what wind speeds

etnz may have their boat on the water now but really only have 15? days of sailing it before they get locked in to boat 2's design

going to be hard for any team to learn as much as oracle have already forgotten

[SW Sailor]

I wonder if this one was touched up or not? From Feb, this foil almost looks like it had a torpedo shape at the bottom.. via my teeny screen anyway


http://www.latitude3...22#.T_s7MoF5mc1

Do you have to be a conspiracy theorist to join SA ?

I can assure you these are real, but they don't work until you reach a certain speed

There you go, stirring the pot, like you know something the rest don't.

I mean, you're just an old monohull sailor, aren't you?

Mono's baby, that's where it's at for those of us that can't afford AC45's, as SL33's are for pussies .

Anything else is just pure speculation and photo shop, L foils are pure photo shop, nothing more. AC45's don't foil, and the teams really don't like the design

[~HHN92~]

Do you have to be a conspiracy theorist to join SA ?

I can assure you these are real, but they don't work until you reach a certain speed

There you go, stirring the pot, like you know something the rest don't.

I mean, you're just an old monohull sailor, aren't you?

Mono's baby, that's where it's at for those of us that can't afford AC45's, as SL33's are for pussies .

Anything else is just pure speculation and photo shop, L foils are pure photo shop, nothing more. AC45's don't foil, and the teams really don't like the design

And Charlie don't surf.....................

[dumper]

I wonder if this one was touched up or not? From Feb, this foil almost looks like it had a torpedo shape at the bottom.. via my teeny screen anyway


http://www.latitude3...22#.T_s7MoF5mc1

Do you have to be a conspiracy theorist to join SA ?

I can assure you these are real, but they don't work until you reach a certain speed

There you go, stirring the pot, like you know something the rest don't.

I mean, you're just an old monohull sailor, aren't you?

Mono's baby, that's where it's at for those of us that can't afford AC45's, as SL33's are for pussies .

Anything else is just pure speculation and photo shop, L foils are pure photo shop, nothing more. AC45's don't foil, and the teams really don't like the design

then can you please explain the photos?

[SW Sailor]

I wonder if this one was touched up or not? From Feb, this foil almost looks like it had a torpedo shape at the bottom.. via my teeny screen anyway


http://www.latitude3...22#.T_s7MoF5mc1

Do you have to be a conspiracy theorist to join SA ?

I can assure you these are real, but they don't work until you reach a certain speed

There you go, stirring the pot, like you know something the rest don't.

I mean, you're just an old monohull sailor, aren't you?

Mono's baby, that's where it's at for those of us that can't afford AC45's, as SL33's are for pussies .

Anything else is just pure speculation and photo shop, L foils are pure photo shop, nothing more. AC45's don't foil, and the teams really don't like the design

then can you please explain the photos?

All photo shopped - none of it ever really happened.

It's a figment of your imagination in the magical world of AC 45's. L foils don't exist
.

[SW Sailor]

I wonder if this one was touched up or not? From Feb, this foil almost looks like it had a torpedo shape at the bottom.. via my teeny screen anyway


http://www.latitude3...22#.T_s7MoF5mc1

Do you have to be a conspiracy theorist to join SA ?

I can assure you these are real, but they don't work until you reach a certain speed

There you go, stirring the pot, like you know something the rest don't.

I mean, you're just an old monohull sailor, aren't you?

Mono's baby, that's where it's at for those of us that can't afford AC45's, as SL33's are for pussies .

Anything else is just pure speculation and photo shop, L foils are pure photo shop, nothing more. AC45's don't foil, and the teams really don't like the design

then can you please explain the photos?

Looks like the sarcasm when over your head.

The photos are real, the foils exist, they do work, and not just coming off a wave as some here have suggested.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some video show up because I watched it from a RIB yesterday and other RIBs were in the immediate area. Pretty cool stuff.

[~HHN92~]

Looks like the sarcasm when over your head.

The photos are real, the foils exist, they do work, and not just coming off a wave as some here have suggested.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some video show up because I watched it from a RIB yesterday and other RIBs were in the immediate area. Pretty cool stuff.

So, you're saying this is for real? Not some trickery or optical illusion? Not a figment of someone's imagination? Not a great OR fan club conspiracy? Is EB behind this? We're not being thrown off the true trail? Something to make the other teams waste funds on? Something that could not work in SF's winds, currents, and waves? An escape from Alcatraz? Escape from New York? D.B. Cooper? The Great Train Robbery? Who shot JR? Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?

[SW Sailor]

Unless MSP slipped a pile of peyote buttons in my scrambled eggs yesterday it looked pretty real to me, and it didn't appear the whole SF bay was shut down for OR's exclusive benefit so others might have seen it as well.

[maxmini]

Looks like the sarcasm when over your head.

The photos are real, the foils exist, they do work, and not just coming off a wave as some here have suggested.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some video show up because I watched it from a RIB yesterday and other RIBs were in the immediate area. Pretty cool stuff.

So, you're saying this is for real? Not some trickery or optical illusion? Not a figment of someone's imagination? Not a great OR fan club conspiracy? Is EB behind this? We're not being thrown off the true trail? Something to make the other teams waste funds on? Something that could not work in SF's winds, currents, and waves? An escape from Alcatraz? Escape from New York? D.B. Cooper? The Great Train Robbery? Who shot JR? Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?

I was standing on the grassy knoll and saw it all quite clearly

[Tornado-Cat]

The photos are real, the foils exist, they do work, and not just coming off a wave as some here have suggested.

Well that is something new about foils. Thanks for sharing .

[SW Sailor]

The photos are real, the foils exist, they do work, and not just coming off a wave as some here have suggested.

Well that is something new about foils. Thanks for sharing .

I guess you should have confirmed it then, but nobody would believe you anyway because you're nowhere near the boats.

[maxmini]

[SW Sailor]

Nice shot - thanks.

[nroose]

From http://www.sail-worl...elopments/98900 no?

[SW Sailor]

Great shots - thanks for posting.

Pretty exciting seeing this in action from close up.

[maxmini]

Nice shot - thanks.

No problem . I saw this one posted on a a few sites and thought it fit this thread pretty well.

[SW Sailor]

Nice shot - thanks.

No problem . I saw this one posted on a a few sites and thought it fit this thread pretty well.

But are you sure it wasn't photo shopped or the boat was just launched off a wave

[KiwiJoker]

From http://www.sail-worl...elopments/98900 no?

Huh! What am I missing?

This article is exactly one month old -- published 24th June --and has already been through the wringer here!

[SW Sailor]

Well I missed the first release - have to admit I can't catch everything that gets posted.

[maxmini]

Nice shot - thanks.

No problem . I saw this one posted on a a few sites and thought it fit this thread pretty well.

But are you sure it wasn't photo shopped or the boat was just launched off a wave

It was bing towed by a Protector but they photo shopped the tow line out .

[Tornado-Cat]

Nice shot - thanks.

No problem . I saw this one posted on a a few sites and thought it fit this thread pretty well.

SWS must be right, it was posted on SA.

Well I missed the first release - have to admit I can't catch everything that gets posted.

Well, that was most part of this thread.

[~HHN92~]

Nice shot - thanks.

No problem . I saw this one posted on a a few sites and thought it fit this thread pretty well.

But are you sure it wasn't photo shopped or the boat was just launched off a wave

It was bing towed by a Protector but they photo shopped the tow line out .

Replacing the J29 in the Viagra ad?

[maxmini]

Nice shot - thanks.

No problem . I saw this one posted on a a few sites and thought it fit this thread pretty well.

But are you sure it wasn't photo shopped or the boat was just launched off a wave

It was bing towed by a Protector but they photo shopped the tow line out .

Replacing the J29 in the Viagra ad?

That's where they got the idea

[Dyneema_forever]

http://blueplanettim...racle4close.jpg

[Xlot]

http://blueplanettim...racle4close.jpg

Not again .. acorn but no fence this time?

[~Stingray~]

And there's that loopy line down below again, we've seen that before.

I wonder when this photo was taken?

[kiwi_jon]

I wonder when this photo was taken?

21st Feb 2012 5.40pm

[~Stingray~]

I wonder when this photo was taken?

21st Feb 2012 5.40pm

Thanks - almost posted a Feb guess.

X, iirc the only time we saw a fence was in what was likely a send-up photo, from on JS's FB page after a day out with that kitesurfer.