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2 man keel boat?


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#1 Greve de Lecq

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:51 AM

I am looking for suggestions for a small keelboat that has a realistic PHRF rating and can be raced, in light to moderate airs, by a lightweight crew of 2.
A spinny would be nice.

I have a budget of only about 10K...

Any/all suggestions would be appreciated.


Greve de Lecq

#2 in_TO

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:19 AM

Keelboats designed for a crew of two are rare. Flying Fifteen and Tempest are the only two that come to mind.

#3 dyslexic dog

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:24 AM

110? depending on where you sail.

#4 Blitz

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:31 AM

Cal 20, fun little boat, cheap and rates a 268 also a fun one design class boat. For 3500 you can find race ready boats and a suit of sails is 1800. Yea it's 6kt sb but people clean up with them in phrf racing.


Cal 20 One Design Sailing For Everyone

#5 Gouvernail

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:33 AM

South Coast 21...Just had teh intergallactics here a month ago.



Impulse 21



J-105

#6 sumpin

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:52 AM

Cal 20, fun little boat, cheap and rates a 268 also a fun one design class boat. For 3500 you can find race ready boats and a suit of sails is 1800. Yea it's 6kt sb but people clean up with them in phrf racing.


Cal 20 One Design Sailing For Everyone




do IT

#7 kmcfast

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:04 AM

Venture 21 the "original" sportboat.

#8 couchsurfer

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 05:26 AM

Cal 20, .......... it's 6kt sb .........


....gravity assisted? :huh:

#9 Bulbhunter

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 05:35 AM

Rhodes 19? Great boat!

#10 n8duff

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 06:11 AM

Santana 20

Readily available $5k boats competitive for nationals

Killer PHRF in light to mod air and flat water

#11 opa1

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 06:13 AM

Harbor 20. Pretty little boat.

#12 Presuming Ed

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 09:26 AM

Keelboats designed for a crew of two are rare. Flying Fifteen and Tempest are the only two that come to mind.


2 man keelboats have been around for a while. 1/2 raters were racing at the end of the 19 century.

As you say, Flying Fifteen and Tempest
Star




Squib
Sandhopper (an....acquired taste)
Loch Long
K6
SK2 (bit modern and spenny)

#13 simbert

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 01:44 PM

Keelboats designed for a crew of two are rare. Flying Fifteen and Tempest are the only two that come to mind.


toronto dude? here you go... the guy might even take canadian pennies :-)

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-Two-FLYING-FIFTEENS-W0QQAdIdZ384362465

#14 GybeSet®

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 01:46 PM

Dragon

Rocket 22

#15 Guitar

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 01:53 PM

Check your local PHRF to see if they allow traps. Tempest is a great fast boat for two, but the traps set it apart when brought to the committee for a rating.
NorCal PHRF has a history of allowing traps on some boats, (nobody mentioned a Wabbit, the ultimate killer machine).

SoCal, not so much.

#16 Mahogany Reef

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 01:53 PM

For PHRF the Soling can be a good one.

#17 On the Hard

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:03 PM

For PHRF the Soling can be a good one.


Soling would be a lot for 2 people to handle, especially in a breeze. Tuna 20 was my thought. Rocket 22 would be fun, but I think it would be a budget buster and not sure easily 2 handed

#18 SailRacer

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:07 PM

Holder 20
Rates 186 phrf.
Sail safe!

#19 SemiSalt

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:12 PM

It's not clear to me exactly what you want. PHRF is oriented to cabin boats and big crews. Some the possibilities mentioned are awkward fits to PHRF. And most of the small keelboats meant for racing are designed with minimum crew of three. I remember a Santana 20 brochure showing 4 (or was it 5?) 200lb crew members in full foulies. Lightnings and Rhodes 19's usually sail with three. The 2-man, hi-performance boats like the International Tempest are difficult to rate in PHRF because they are very fast in some conditions, so you may well get a rating the prohibits doing well except in those conditions.

Check with the fleet you want to race in, and find out if they allow boats without cabins. They didn't use to, but I guess they do now. Then I suggest you find a fractional rig boat weighing not much more than 2500#. It can be equipped so that a two man crew can fly the chute and otherwise sail OK, but you will give away a little to boats with bigger crews. You want a medium-performance boat; something really hot will be looking for more weight on the rail.

You also want to check the rating range of the fleet. A boat like a C&C 24 or 25 would fit your specs, but if the next-slowest boat is a J-24 you will always be the last man in.

Or maybe you don't really want to sail PHRF at all.

I think you might look at a Sonar.

#20 Mahogany Reef

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:26 PM

Holder 20
Rates 186 phrf.
Sail safe!


+1 for the Holder 20. Will sail past its rating, especially as it builds.
I raced against one for quite a few years. Fast in moderate to light breeze, really good as it built and if you could get a third crew on for weight. Would plane pretty well.

#21 Rusty

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:33 PM

Ideal 18?

#22 crashdog

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:47 PM

If you are in BC, Star would be a good solution, good fleet and district. You can buy a pretty good boat for 10K (sail inventory isn't cheap but lots of good used sails around), enough to allow you to compete reasonably well at a district and even continental level. You get to become a member of a great fraternity that will allow you to sail just about anywhere in the world when you travel. And there isn't a better boat around, except maybe the Finn (or is it the other way around...).

However, PRHF isn't much fun in the boat, because you have to pee in your wetsuit.

#23 cruzer

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:49 PM

Light air? OK...
While out looking over the Cal 20 (which is a good choice), check out the Ranger 20. Admittedly it's a short lead keel plus a CB, but it was designed for light air in the NW. I used to race one with working sails and occasionally in spinnaker class. Fractional rig so the chute is easy to handle.
Crew of two is usually all you need.

L

#24 Drewbius

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:54 PM

Ideal 18?


Perhaps they should have renamed the Ideal the "mess of a compromise"

#25 Tejano

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:05 PM

Do what I'm about to do...move down to a U20. Great single/double/triple handed boat. Can actually sail to its rating, comfy, fast and fun.

#26 in_TO

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:20 PM

The 2-man, hi-performance boats like the International Tempest are difficult to rate in PHRF because they are very fast in some conditions, so you may well get a rating the prohibits doing well except in those conditions.


Years ago, there were a few Flying Fifteens racing at my club in a mixed PHRF fleet. They usually got slaughtered on corrected, but if they had enough breeze to plane or waves to surf, they were untouchable.

#27 SemiSalt

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:29 PM


The 2-man, hi-performance boats like the International Tempest are difficult to rate in PHRF because they are very fast in some conditions, so you may well get a rating the prohibits doing well except in those conditions.


Years ago, there were a few Flying Fifteens racing at my club in a mixed PHRF fleet. They usually got slaughtered on corrected, but if they had enough breeze to plane or waves to surf, they were untouchable.


Yeah, but a FF in Bristol condition is a thing of beauty.

#28 dogwatch

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:40 PM

If you are in BC, Star would be a good solution


I am looking for suggestions for a small keelboat that ......... can be raced, in light to moderate airs, by a lightweight crew of 2.

Does that sound like a Star? Or come to that, someone else's suggestion of K6?

#29 Mr Moab

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:44 PM

Wabbit

#30 Foxxy

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:51 PM

SR Max

#31 Schnick

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:08 PM

Cal 20 would be perfect if you have a fleet nearby. It also does well on PHRF but really prefers heavy air I think.

The Santana 20 seems like the obvious choice if you are in a lighter region. And it's much more fun to sail in any breeze than the Cal 20, and finally it will also be about 20 years newer than most any Cal you find.

The other boat that I know nothing about but I bet would work is the S2 6.9. I think there is a version with a decent cabin and a more racey version.

#32 bluefin1

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:18 PM

Northstar 727. $8000 neg. Great Boat.. Can be double handed easily. I"ve done it. omes with a trailer.

Rates 195 PHRF-LE

check out the classifieds (I already bought an ad)

-Bluefin

#33 MacGregor_Lover

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 05:17 PM

How about the JS9000/Admiralty 30?

JS Yachts USA

-MH


Find either one of those for the 10g's he asked for and I will take two!!

#34 DaveK

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 05:27 PM

I'll let my Maverick go for less than $10k :)



#35 Guitar

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 06:59 PM

Damn Dave, you're giving it away! Take bids at least so more people have a chance at it.:lol:

#36 Great Red Shark

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 07:10 PM

I'll put another vote in for the Impulse 21.

You can find them cheap, they are pretty well-built and sail very well - all around - not a light-air screamer, but comfortable, will go upwind in a blow just fine and the self-tacking jib and kite-launcher make 2-up sailing a cinch.

Five years into my ownership of # 159 I am still enjoying it - very easy to get underway and to take care of, and it has been an EXCELLENT crew trainer.

No interior volume or accomodations, however.

If you want a camper-boat in that size/price range look around for a fixed-keel version of the Catalina22.

#37 Mike Hunt

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 07:23 PM

Star

Star class assoc.

#38 Greve de Lecq

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 07:54 PM

My main motivation is racing, and the only racing here is PHRF, mostly light to moderate airs.

A small cabin for additional gear for day-sailing would be useful.

I don't want to be searching for crew members to race and would like to be able to single-hand from time to time for recreation sailing.

G d L

#39 VwaP

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 08:03 PM

Posted Image

#40 Great Red Shark

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 08:09 PM

Well the Impulse is a day-sailer -storage below decks only, so if you want a more versatile boat, look for a Wabbit !

#41 On the Hard

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 09:51 PM

Well the Impulse is a day-sailer -storage below decks only, so if you want a more versatile boat, look for a Wabbit !



Looks like a cool boat, but where on earth do you find one??

#42 Schnick

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 09:52 PM

There's also a Merit 22 on Portland Craigslist right now that might be a good fit.

In Vancouver the San Juan 24s do quite well in Div. 7, and they probably would do better with 2 people on them to keep the traffic jam out of the cockpit.

Any 24'er can be sailed well by 2, but the lack of meat on the rail will certainly impact many of them.

#43 6924

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 03:45 AM

Didn't the PNW have a big Santana 525 fleet a while back ?

Not quite a 2 person boat, but likely quite a few to be had at good prices in the area.

The S20 is also an obvious choice.

#44 CyberBOB

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:53 AM

My main motivation is racing, and the only racing here is PHRF, mostly light to moderate airs.

A small cabin for additional gear for day-sailing would be useful.

I don't want to be searching for crew members to race and would like to be able to single-hand from time to time for recreation sailing.

G d L


Lots of boats mentioned here will easily fit that bill.

I would suggest start looking at boats say 18' to 25', find one you like that is in good shape, come back and ask for opinions. Most of the boats in this range can quite easily be sailed 2 up, especially in light airs.

#45 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 05:28 AM

SR Max

Yeah! I had one! Great boat!




#46 Somebody Else

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:45 AM

i550 i550na.org

Build your own! Posted Image

#47 BalticBandit

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:52 AM

Santana 20

Readily available $5k boats competitive for nationals

Killer PHRF in light to mod air and flat water

+10

Santana 20, small enough you can handle double handed even with kite. You will only suffer in the upper moderate wind range where having 2 bodies hiking upwind would be needed to sail to the rating and you will only have one.

Stars can be fun and you can get a used older one for under $5k. But they can be physically painful to sail, particularly as the wind goes up (was out on one this past weekend in 20+ and it was "exciting", and fairly challenging in higher breeze.

#48 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 02:59 PM

I would happily trade in my 38-ft Laser for an Alerion 28. But that's much more pricey than 10-K! But that would be perfect for someone in my geriatric status. A "couch" boat: something longer than a Harbor-20 (doesn't leave the harbor in more than 20 knots) would fit the bill.

#49 Greve de Lecq

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:24 PM

Those i550s sure look interesting but I don't have a workshop large enough and don't want to wait the 2 years it would probably take me to build one!

G d L

#50 Steam Flyer

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:43 PM

Those i550s sure look interesting but I don't have a workshop large enough and don't want to wait the 2 years it would probably take me to build one!

G d L


I'm amazed nobody has suggested a San Juan 21

FB- Doug

#51 SoAPieceOfStringWalksIntoABar...

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:47 PM

Those i550s sure look interesting but I don't have a workshop large enough and don't want to wait the 2 years it would probably take me to build one!

G d L

One already built for sale:
http://www.iceboxi550.blogspot.com/
Probably the best equipped boat in this hemisphere, at a fire sale price...



#52 barefoot children

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:08 AM

Back a few years ago a couple did quite well racing a Ranger 23 in PHRF bouy racing

#53 One of Five

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:12 AM

there's a ton of cool boats out there. Try them all!!

#54 Greve de Lecq

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:52 PM

I like the idea of the drop keels on the likes of the SR Max 21 & Holder 20.
How practical would it be to race either one of these with a crew of 2 lightweights (total 280#)?

Greve de Lecq

#55 DRIFTW00D

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 01:42 AM

Clean Report20/20 Vision

#56 One of Five

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:24 AM

Did the OP ever get a boat?

#57 Ishmael

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

Dunno, but I also dunno why nobody mentioned the Martin 24. Tons of them around here.

#58 @last

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:32 AM

J22? Although more crew would be helpful would think that in light to moderate air (emphasis on light air) properly set up the boat could be managed.

#59 yowie

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

http://vancouver.en....3465327845.html
No gold bricks for two dollars, but maybe its worth a look at that price

#60 SMBReno

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:18 AM

Moore 24 for <10k absolutely best boat for the $. phrf 150. Highly competitive OD fleets and often soloed. Two handed seems very relaxing even with spinnaker when used to single handing.

#61 blurocketsmate

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:59 AM

The Santana 20 and 525 are great in light air but struggle when it blows, and would really struggle with only 2 aboard.

Best suggestion is the Moore 24, if there are any in the stated price range. Don't forget sails, etc.

Can you get a Martin 242 that cheap?

Both of these have PNW fleets and class racing, so a supply of boats/parts/knowledge. And buyers when you're done.

Cal 20 or 25 would be great if not "fast," same with Ranger 23 or Santana 22.

I'd stick with what's available locally. No sense spending half the value of a boat to go get it.

#62 ovclampett

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:33 PM

Sj 21

#63 dolphinmaster

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:47 PM

Etchells

SR 21 needs that third person for lbs.

#64 schoonerman

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:46 PM

K6 doesn't fit your budget but is a hell of a lot fun to sail and was designed as a double hander. Sails well in light and heavy air. Whole boat weighs 600 lbs and has nearly 50 ballast ratio. Carbon mast, prod and a 4lb carbon boom!

New with Trailer and Norths are $24,995...cheaper still if you buy a 20' box.

http://www.rondarboats.com/us/k6-class

Easily rigged alone and can sail singlehanded with the kite up. Self tending jib.

There may be a couple of used ones available at American Yacht Club come Spring of 2013. Recent sales of boats in BC, Midwest, West Coast and North East. Still nowhere close to one-design but it's a start.

Bummer is we can't get a NorCal PHRF rating as the keel doesn't meet the minimum of 400 lbs (Wabbit Wule) SoCal rating is 114.

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#65 Guitar

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

The Tempest rated at 141 for SF Bay fits in quite nicely with the SC 27 and U20 rating. Normally in the mix somewhat with the Moore's and E27s.

I could never see the problem with rating this boat within this sailing range. People get all freaked out over traps.

#66 mcsailor0303

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:07 PM

Moore 24.

We were double handing ours on Sat in >30 with the kite up. Most fun you'll have with your cloths on ;)

#67 SMBReno

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:28 AM

Cool! Moore 24 sailors in loin cloths! I like it.

#68 Ishmael

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:12 AM

Cool! Moore 24 sailors in loin cloths! I like it.


No pictures please, unless they are female.

#69 Guitar

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:08 AM

Without a doubt, Moore's rock.

#70 opa1

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:04 AM

Sonar. 3 sails, stay in the cockpit, goes pretty good.

#71 blurocketsmate

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:10 PM

Thunderbird w/ 2?

#72 Somebody Else

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

Be sure to check your local rules. Southern California PHRF requires minimum 3 crew except for Category 4 and is no farther than 5 miles from land.

#73 Doc Häagen-Dazs

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:39 AM

SR Max

++

#74 Greve de Lecq

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:56 PM

Thanks for all of the great suggestions guys.
I found myself a really nice SR Max with 2 suits of sails ( one suit used only one weekend!) plus trailer for well under my budget and am really looking forward to the coming season.
Needs a minor repair to the bulb, but that will have to wait until Spring

Regards


Greve de Lecq

#75 FRENZY

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:52 PM

If you are going to race PHRF, get the biggest boat your $10k can get you.

An older C&C, Pearson, Hobbie, J/anything, Peterson, Olsen anything that will sail well without 1500 pounds of rail gorillas.
You will enjoy the boat with family and friends and do fine in PHRF distance racing. If you want to do W/L get a furler for
the jib and spinnaker, they both cost less dollars than what a crew can eat and drink in a single season and they always show up!

Bigger boats are easier to sail short handed, can handle just about any weather if your man enough and serve as a GDP. (Gin drinking Platform)
Upkeep is almost the same and mooring and storage is only marginally more. If you get a popular boat there are always used sails on the market.

How can an old boat with a small crew win in PHRF? Easy, keep the bottom clean, don't make mistakes. Did you ever notice the boats having the most fun racing are
the guys you have to ask what kind of boat is that. Welcome to PHRF 3 & 4, get this man a Gin and Tonic...

Frenzy

#76 dolphinmaster

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:53 PM

Thanks for all of the great suggestions guys.
I found myself a really nice SR Max with 2 suits of sails ( one suit used only one weekend!) plus trailer for well under my budget and am really looking forward to the coming season.
Needs a minor repair to the bulb, but that will have to wait until Spring

Regards


Greve de Lecq


good luck GdeL, what number?

#77 kmcfast

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:38 AM

Thanks for all of the great suggestions guys.
I found myself a really nice SR Max with 2 suits of sails ( one suit used only one weekend!) plus trailer for well under my budget and am really looking forward to the coming season.
Needs a minor repair to the bulb, but that will have to wait until Spring

Regards


Greve de Lecq

Nice get. enjoy...

#78 Red Dragon

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

Someone suggested a Dragon. I would not advise that for two people, not and use all the sails. A 210, on the other hand, I think you can do. Or at least I have.

Then again, I have seen several guys in the Cleveland Dragon fleet sail with two. Just depends on how well it's rigged.

RD

#79 Stuff4Toys

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:32 AM

Harbor 20
Able 24
Schock 20
Hunter 216

Have crewed on each of these boats, they can be fun.

#80 Greve de Lecq

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:56 AM

Dolphinmaster: I have hull # 63; originally for California I believe. "Midnight Rambler".

GdeL

#81 Speng

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

Thanks for all of the great suggestions guys.
I found myself a really nice SR Max with 2 suits of sails ( one suit used only one weekend!) plus trailer for well under my budget and am really looking forward to the coming season.
Needs a minor repair to the bulb, but that will have to wait until Spring

Regards


Greve de Lecq


TURBO IT!!

#82 Hobie Dog

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:22 PM

Do what I'm about to do...move down to a U20. Great single/double/triple handed boat. Can actually sail to its rating, comfy, fast and fun.

+1 on the U20! I loved my Antrim 27 and often think about getting back in the Sport Boat game with the U20.

Also the Moore 24 is a good choice as mentioned.

A Merit 25 is a good choice for light to moderate air.

All the small Sport Boats would work well:
Viper, K6, VX-One, SB3 (Slower but can be had for a song in the US as the class never took off here.)

Good luck and have fun!

#83 One of Five

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:28 PM

fun for two Tempest all the way.

Ultimate 20 is a very well rigged boat - but really for three.

K-6 is quite nice - kind of tweaky - probably an excellent husband and wife boat (if you want to go there and 'stress test' the relationship).




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