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Hitting a mark of the course - can you "fend off"?


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#1 Lumpydog

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:31 PM

Fleet racing last weekend. Lots of current. Windward mark rounding. Didn't make it.

Once the boat contacts the mark (an inflatable tetrahedron), what are people's thoughts on grabbing it and running it to the transom? Cheater move? Legit?

My thinking you're on it. You've gotta get off it. Might as well get it to the "right side", end the pain, do your circle and move on.

Lumpy

#2 Icedtea

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:38 PM

I would only ever do that if it was really essential.

BUT if you do it when it's not essetial you could break rule 42 for illegal propulsion, as maybe it pushes the boat forward.

So I would say overall no you can't.


But I almost expect to be proved wrong.

Oh and since you're a newb, please show us some tits.

#3 CyberBOB

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:41 PM

...
Oh and since you're a newb, please show us some tits.


And with a name like Lumpy Dog, please let it be somebody else's ;)

#4 Schnick

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:44 PM

At some point you will of course have to take action to clear yourself of the mark, and of course it would make sense to drag the mark around the back of the boat.

However, this often happens when the wind is light, there is adverse current, and boats are having a hard time getting around the mark. At this point, you can often get around and then do turns, and still come out ahead of a guy who tacked to make sure he missed the mark. At this point I believe rule 44.1.b kicks in:

(B) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

#5 Lumpydog

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:52 PM

BUT if you do it when it's not essetial you could break rule 42 for illegal propulsion, as maybe it pushes the boat forward.

Oh and since you're a newb, please show us some tits.


No propulsion gained. Just making sure that the mark ends up behind me and I'm around. Rather than drifting back - having to do a circle and then try to get around again.

Once you hit the mark - you've made contact. There is really no such thing as "more contact" or "too much contact". So handling the mark does not seem illegal. I agree you cant use the mark to pull you forward - but more often than not, it just needs a few shoves toward the back to get you around it and clear. It seems like a no brainer - if you hit it, at that point make sure it ends up behind you.

Regarding Tits - I don't have'm. Not even man-boobs. They're kinda hairy. I think it would wreck your day to see'm

#6 I'moutahere

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:56 PM



BUT if you do it when it's not essetial you could break rule 42 for illegal propulsion, as maybe it pushes the boat forward.

Oh and since you're a newb, please show us some tits.


No propulsion gained. Just making sure that the mark ends up behind me and I'm around. Rather than drifting back - having to do a circle and then try to get around again.

Once you hit the mark - you've made contact. There is really no such thing as "more contact" or "too much contact". So handling the mark does not seem illegal. I agree you cant use the mark to pull you forward - but more often than not, it just needs a few shoves toward the back to get you around it and clear. It seems like a no brainer - if you hit it, at that point make sure it ends up behind you.

Regarding Tits - I don't have'm. Not even man-boobs. They're kinda hairy. I think it would wreck your day to see'm


If you would do something "doubtful" like pulling on the mark to get yourself past it instead of sailing - what else would you do that might be only a little bit against the rules?

#7 Lumpydog

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:08 PM



BUT if you do it when it's not essetial you could break rule 42 for illegal propulsion, as maybe it pushes the boat forward.

Oh and since you're a newb, please show us some tits.


No propulsion gained. Just making sure that the mark ends up behind me and I'm around. Rather than drifting back - having to do a circle and then try to get around again.

Once you hit the mark - you've made contact. There is really no such thing as "more contact" or "too much contact". So handling the mark does not seem illegal. I agree you cant use the mark to pull you forward - but more often than not, it just needs a few shoves toward the back to get you around it and clear. It seems like a no brainer - if you hit it, at that point make sure it ends up behind you.

Regarding Tits - I don't have'm. Not even man-boobs. They're kinda hairy. I think it would wreck your day to see'm


If you would do something "doubtful" like pulling on the mark to get yourself past it instead of sailing - what else would you do that might be only a little bit against the rules?


I hear you there. It's not as much pulling as it is pushing in this case. We we're hung up on it. You gotta fend off and get off it. It made me wonder what the rules allow for with regard to which way you fend it off....

#8 El Crapitano

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:13 PM

Your number one priority should be ensuring that the mark stays put and that you don't drag it to some other location. Your fellow racers and the race commitee will appreciate this. I think walking it around your stern accomplishes this. Good thing it wasn't a government mark.



#9 I'moutahere

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:18 PM

So is it OK to hold onto the RC boat and do a 360 later rather than be OCS and lose more time dodging boats & getting back behind the line?

Or the boat is only 1 kilogram below the class weight limit. We'll just put a wet T shirt or 2 in there somewhere until it's weighed.

#10 Reht

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:23 PM

Presumably said mark has an anchor line, if that starts to wrap your foils I can understand pushing away the mark (perpendicular to the way the boat is pointing) or towards your bow. Remember that just because nobody else was involved in the incident doesn't mean they didn't witness it and can't protest you. Doing something that blatantly doesn't help you is much more likely to keep away protests than something that looks like it might potentially help you, if you end up in a protest then you have to convince a protest committee that you didn't benefit. If I were in a regatta/series and close on someone who got fouled on a mark and they proceeded to push it around their stern I'd probably protest them, the only reason I wouldn't is if it was obvious that the anchor line only just caught their rudder and that was the quick and obvious way to clear the line.

In general if the conditions are light with plenty of adverse current give yourself ample room, if you do get in a situation where you're stuck on the mark then definitely try to do something that clearly isn't giving you an advantage.

#11 BalticBandit

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:12 PM



BUT if you do it when it's not essetial you could break rule 42 for illegal propulsion, as maybe it pushes the boat forward.

Oh and since you're a newb, please show us some tits.


No propulsion gained. Just making sure that the mark ends up behind me and I'm around. Rather than drifting back - having to do a circle and then try to get around again.


Even if propulsion is not the issue notice what you wrote that I bolded. What you are suggesting doing is INTENTIONALL MOVING a mark of the course so as to gain a positional benefit from it. Particularly if you had property called the mark it would have taken longer - or if you had opted not to hit the mark in the first place by bearing off, gybing, sailing until on the REAL layline and then tacking again.

So in doing what you describe you are GAINING AN ADVANTAGE you would not have had if you had not hit the mark. And thus you are subject to 44.1.b

Now if you were simply fending off laterally to avoid fouling the anchor line - or fending off to prevent damage to the boat (say its is a permanent steel mark) you've got a basis for fending that is not associated with "improving your position" and thus you can probably clear yourself in a 44.1.b claim

But the way you described it- its a clear 44.1.b violation

#12 coyotepup

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:40 PM

Let me get this straight. Beating to the windward mark, you hit it and went to the wrong side of it. With the boat contacting the mark, a crew member grabs the mark, pulls it around the stern so instead of the boat brushing against the mark on the boat's starboard side, it now touches the boat's port side (assuming marks to port here.) So now you're on the "correct" side of the mark, so you sail away and do your turns and then pass the mark to port like you should. Is this correct?

If so, my opinion is you never sailed the course correctly. Pull your string tight and it wouldn't go around that mark.

#13 Somebody Else

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:50 PM


...
Oh and since you're a newb, please show us some tits.


And with a name like Lumpy Dog, please let it be somebody else's ;)


Oh Jeezy Creezy! Be careful of what you ask for!

No one wants to see that train wreck!

#14 Gouvernail

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 05:04 PM

Common decency says>



get untangled and away from the mark as rapidly as possible.



The last thing the rest of the fleet wants is some knucklehead snagged on the mark and taking that mark to a new location.



the problem with walking that mark to the back of the boat is the tackle is very likey to snag on the rudder



Be prepared for that and be prepared to immediately free that tackle even if it means jumpin in and freing the tackle by hand.



Then get the hell out of the way while you do your penalty turns and if you need to re-aproach and properly round for the sake of the string test..do that too.



after doing your turns, you are just a boat approaching a mark. you gotta play by the rules.,,which are most easily applied if you get all the way out of the three boat length circle and start trying again.

#15 DRIFTW00D

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 05:57 PM



Once you hit the mark - you've made contact. There is really no such thing as "more contact" or "too much contact". So handling the mark does not seem illegal. I agree you cant use the mark to pull you forward - but more often than not, it just needs a few shoves toward the back to get you around it and clear. It seems like a no brainer - if you hit it, at that point make sure it ends up behind you.

Tits - I don't have'm. boobs.








#16 us7070

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 05:59 PM

i don't think OP meant to say that he walked it from the wrong side to the correct side of the boat.

when he said he didn't make it..., i think he just meant that he hit it...

your competitors will appreciate your getting clear of it as soon as possible

yes, as is the case with any infraction, if you gained a significant advantage by hitting the mark - say saving two tacks in really light wind with a heavy boat and adverse current - as was proposed, then it is not ok to point the boat downwind, and do a tack and jibe as the current takes you downwind and your competitors struggle to make the mark...

in that case, you should retire.

otherwise just do your tack and jibe.

#17 JimC

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:39 AM

Agree with those that say you have a most times your fellow competitors will want you to get off the mark ASAP, and preferably without relocating it or dragging it out of position - esp if it springs back and hits someone who thought they were clear. If you think there's a possibility that you might be about to gain an advantage by doing so it would make sense to do take your penalty turn sufficiently slowly that any advantage has clearly been negated, which probably means ensuring a few boats have passed you. I don't think that strictly exonerates you from 44.1b, but in most amateur racing people are unlikely to be too upset if its clear the end result is no advantage.

#18 mad

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:01 PM



BUT if you do it when it's not essetial you could break rule 42 for illegal propulsion, as maybe it pushes the boat forward.

Oh and since you're a newb, please show us some tits.


No propulsion gained. Just making sure that the mark ends up behind me and I'm around. Rather than drifting back - having to do a circle and then try to get around again.

Once you hit the mark - you've made contact. There is really no such thing as "more contact" or "too much contact". So handling the mark does not seem illegal. I agree you cant use the mark to pull you forward - but more often than not, it just needs a few shoves toward the back to get you around it and clear. It seems like a no brainer - if you hit it, at that point make sure it ends up behind you.

Regarding Tits - I don't have'm. Not even man-boobs. They're kinda hairy. I think it would wreck your day to see'm

Your sisters will do just fine

#19 Steam Flyer

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:17 PM

Agree with those that say you have a most times your fellow competitors will want you to get off the mark ASAP, and preferably without relocating it or dragging it out of position - esp if it springs back and hits someone who thought they were clear. If you think there's a possibility that you might be about to gain an advantage by doing so it would make sense to do take your penalty turn sufficiently slowly that any advantage has clearly been negated, which probably means ensuring a few boats have passed you. I don't think that strictly exonerates you from 44.1b, but in most amateur racing people are unlikely to be too upset if its clear the end result is no advantage.


I swear it only happened that one time
B)

Jim nailed it here IMHO. Dragging the mark out of place really sucks, especially if you're sailing a great race, are already around, and the RC throws out the whole thing.

FB- Doug

#20 Dog Watch

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 12:13 AM

So is it OK to hold onto the RC boat and do a 360 later rather than be OCS and lose more time dodging boats & getting back behind the line?


No. Rc boat is a mark. Intentionally breaking a rule is bad.

What about tieing onto rc boat's anchor line though, when there is a massive current against the start. Then just before the start letting out your painter to put yourself on the line.

#21 Brass

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 12:29 AM


So is it OK to hold onto the RC boat and do a 360 later rather than be OCS and lose more time dodging boats & getting back behind the line?


No. Rc boat is a mark. Intentionally breaking a rule is bad.

What about tieing onto rc boat's anchor line though, when there is a massive current against the start. Then just before the start letting out your painter to put yourself on the line.


RULE 45 HAULING OUT; MAKING FAST; ACHORING

A boat shall be afloat and off moorings at her preparatory
signal. Thereafter, she shall not be hauled out or made fast except to bail out,
reef sails or make repairs. She may anchor or the crew may stand on the bottom.
She shall recover the anchor before continuing in the race unless she is unable
to do so







#22 MT14er

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 02:19 AM

This remindes me of a mixed fleet race a few years ago. Nearing the mark in light wind with bad current with faster boats bearing down on us to windward. Crew says "what's your plan on this mark?" I reply " I'm going to run over the f...ing thing.". We take the mark on the nose and it rolls down the port side, we clear the area and do the turns. Not very eloquent, but better than the alternative.

#23 Steam Flyer

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 12:26 PM


So is it OK to hold onto the RC boat and do a 360 later rather than be OCS and lose more time dodging boats & getting back behind the line?


No. Rc boat is a mark. Intentionally breaking a rule is bad.

What about tieing onto rc boat's anchor line though, when there is a massive current against the start. Then just before the start letting out your painter to put yourself on the line.


If the painter is "part of the boat's equipment" then you'd be OCS IMHO. Every part of the boat, hull, crew, sails, rig, etc etc, has to be behind the start line.

Is this a test question?
;)

FB- Doug

#24 rule 54

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 01:11 PM

If you were advantage you should retire. Also on a small boat of you can fend off using a boat pole or something that you use and only touches the anchor line below the waterline and the mark makes no contact with the boat you are fee and clear.

#25 BalticBandit

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 01:13 PM

This remindes me of a mixed fleet race a few years ago. Nearing the mark in light wind with bad current with faster boats bearing down on us to windward. Crew says "what's your plan on this mark?" I reply " I'm going to run over the f...ing thing.". We take the mark on the nose and it rolls down the port side, we clear the area and do the turns. Not very eloquent, but better than the alternative.


Then you cheated. you violated 44.1

You should have retired.




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