Jump to content


Mandate Upheld


  • Please log in to reply
310 replies to this topic

#101 Occams Razor

Occams Razor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,949 posts
  • Location:San Francisco Bay
  • Interests:Rum

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:05 PM



No...From what I read now it seems your incurance premium is now considered a tax you pay to a private company. Now we pay taxes to private companies?


No, the "penalty" that Congress claimed was not a tax (and man am I going to have some fun with that old thread) was ruled to be a tax.

I have long said that if Congress just admitted they were passing a tax, the constitutional problems would go away. They did not, and explicitly said they were regulating commerce and that that "tax" was a "penalty." That way, they were not "raising taxes." :rolleyes:

The Supreme Court corrected them, something I question the power of the court to do, but they did it.

Tom if I understood this ruling correctly - the "mandate" to buy private insurance was not the tax. Thr penalty for NOT buying it is what thr SCOTUS called the tax. Maybe I misunderstood it wrong when they were discussing it on NPR this morning..... And if thr mandate IS a tax, how do I pay tax to a private corporation?

So I'm honestly left wondering how obamacare is going to actually reduce costs. On the contrary, the SCOTUS just gave the green light to all the young healthy folk to NOT buy insurance until they get sick and instead pay the tiny tax penalty to avoid to mandate.

The elephant in the room here is that this HC act and the mandate, while well intentioned, is a joke without correspondingly adequate penalties/incentives to get all the young healthy folks into the pool to reduce the costs and cover the sick. So what happens to the person who pays the tiny penalty but suddenly needs significant medical care?


Nail on the head Jeff. Passing RomneyCare, as that was what could be passed in the Senate, doesn't solve the basic issue, which is the high cost of care. Insurance is just a (expensive) middleman. Why we get stuck on discussing uninsured rather than availability of quality, affordable health care is beyond me.

#102 tq2000

tq2000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,150 posts
  • Location:East Stroudsburg, PA
  • Interests:boats and bourbon

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:07 PM





The whole point is that health insurance is to expensive for many many americans. It's not that peple don't want it, they can't affford it, and it is getting more expensive by the day.


THAT is very true - I know two people who'd be alive today if we just had national health care.

Same here, guy I grew up with had worker's comp - kept treating his back problem as an injury, he died of bone cancer and it was a miserable death. That was last year.

The comments on people who are now going to move to Canada is truly funny, in a "I can't believe Americans are that ignorant" kind of way.


That is how my father's cancer went undetected. His doc was asking workers comp for an MRI for 5 months, they kept denying it. One day he could not stand up, lost all use of his legs. Ambulance took him to the ER where they performed an MRI that showed a massive tumor along his spine. He passed away 2 1/2 weeks later on New Years day. I don't know that he would have been saved if they found it when he first showed symptoms, but it definitely would have opened up treatment options.

The denial was correct in that Workers comp is for injuries sustained at work. Cancer is not an injury. Nothing personal. Lost a dear friend to bone cancer. Really tough to watch


No problem, I don't take it personal. It probably was not clear from my post, but the issue was that he had a WC claim open because of a neck/back injury suffered at work. So the symptoms seemed likely connected to that. He actually had good insurance that would have covered the MRI if he had not been injured at work and covered under WC. So the insurance refused to cover it because they viewed it as a WC liability, and WC refused to cover it because they said it was unnecessary. Sorry about your friend, cancer is indeed the most vicious bitch I know.

#103 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,244 posts
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:10 PM




TornadoCAN99:

Did you just say that those who have to pay the "tax" can't be prosecuted if they don't?


That is what I have seen on the devil of all shows...Last Word with Lawerence O'Donnell on MSNBC....he showed clause text excerpts detailing the legal limits of enforcing the mandate. Basically, his point was all the fuss of the mandate was BS because it cannot be enforced anyway.

Here's a quick blurb I just found on it:

IRS Enforcement Limits


Sorry - I'd consider that pretty weak "proof" of unenforceability. Our IRS can behave quite badly when it comes to confiscatory practices to "get what's theirs".


You might even be right, based on what I'm hearing, that it must now be called a "tax".

However, if the rules don't constitute "proof" for you, what the heck would?


Mark - Unless I misread/misunderstood, Tornado's original supposition was that collection of the "penalty" was unenforceable, and his cite was an MSNBC article that was pretty nebulous, and that closed in saying that they could see the IRS actually being able to collect.
I'm not certain that we're disagreeing?

#104 Tejano

Tejano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts
  • Location:Deep in the Heart of Texas
  • Interests:Sailing, sailing, more sailing.

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:15 PM

Posted Image

#105 jetboy

jetboy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 747 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:18 PM


Can't believe it...

capitation tax not apportioned by the census is upheld - apparently article 1 section 9 is no longer part of the US constitution?

"No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken."

I'll take "what is the 16th Amendment?" for $1,000 Alex.



Ever read the 16th Amendment? I suggest doing so and get back to me.

Since a tax on buggies isn't a direct tax, apparently a tax on people is also not a direct tax. The same court that held that corporations are people apparently also believes that buggies are people. I have to give them credit for being consistent!

#106 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:19 PM

Why we get stuck on discussing uninsured rather than availability of quality, affordable health care is beyond me.

Bingo. As a nation, we can put human beings on the moon, but we cannot get our representatives to discuss the provision of health care to our citizens as anything but a mechanism for putting $ in the pockets of industries that do little but provide obstacles to health care. Sometimes, I wish someone could sit our representatives down on the sidewalk at Cal Davis, put on that cop's uniform, and casually walk down the line and pepper spray the bastards, laughing the whole time. I jest, but that would be grand entertainment.

#107 tq2000

tq2000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,150 posts
  • Location:East Stroudsburg, PA
  • Interests:boats and bourbon

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:24 PM

Why we get stuck on discussing uninsured rather than availability of quality, affordable health care is beyond me.

Bingo. As a nation, we can put human beings on the moon, but we cannot get our representatives to discuss the provision of health care to our citizens as anything but a mechanism for putting $ in the pockets of industries that do little but provide obstacles to health care. Sometimes, I wish someone could sit our representatives down on the sidewalk at Cal Davis, put on that cop's uniform, and casually walk down the line and pepper spray the bastards, laughing the whole time. I jest, but that would be grand entertainment.


If you could sell tickets, you would raise enough money to solve the HC problem.

#108 NautiGirl

NautiGirl

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,917 posts
  • Location:New Scotland

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:25 PM




The whole point is that health insurance is to expensive for many many americans. It's not that peple don't want it, they can't affford it, and it is getting more expensive by the day.


THAT is very true - I know two people who'd be alive today if we just had national health care.

Same here, guy I grew up with had worker's comp - kept treating his back problem as an injury, he died of bone cancer and it was a miserable death. That was last year.

The comments on people who are now going to move to Canada is truly funny, in a "I can't believe Americans are that ignorant" kind of way.

+1. We all "know" someone that fits the description.


I don't understand.

Up until now, I've only ever read stories around these parts about people in Canada dying because of "rationing" or "long line ups" .

#109 RumBulls

RumBulls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,236 posts
  • Location:Boyne City
  • Interests:Was J24s
    Now is Olson30s

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:26 PM

Can't believe that such a constitutional scholar like Obama could make such a mistake and pass such a constitutional law.


So you think he lied?

#110 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:33 PM

I don't understand.

Up until now, I've only ever read stories about people in Canada dying because of "rationing" or "long line ups" here,

I suspect that most of us here at SA would have been happy to have had one of our own standing in line waiting for a regular checkup at some point, if we were able to turn back a clock. Sadly, we cannot.

#111 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,775 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:47 PM





TornadoCAN99:

Did you just say that those who have to pay the "tax" can't be prosecuted if they don't?


That is what I have seen on the devil of all shows...Last Word with Lawerence O'Donnell on MSNBC....he showed clause text excerpts detailing the legal limits of enforcing the mandate. Basically, his point was all the fuss of the mandate was BS because it cannot be enforced anyway.

Here's a quick blurb I just found on it:

IRS Enforcement Limits


Sorry - I'd consider that pretty weak "proof" of unenforceability. Our IRS can behave quite badly when it comes to confiscatory practices to "get what's theirs".


You might even be right, based on what I'm hearing, that it must now be called a "tax".

However, if the rules don't constitute "proof" for you, what the heck would?


Mark - Unless I misread/misunderstood, Tornado's original supposition was that collection of the "penalty" was unenforceable, and his cite was an MSNBC article that was pretty nebulous, and that closed in saying that they could see the IRS actually being able to collect.
I'm not certain that we're disagreeing?


The Atlantic is not MSNBC, and McCardle is considered a conservative.

She broke no new ground there.

#112 TornadoCAN99

TornadoCAN99

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,487 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:48 PM



You might even be right, based on what I'm hearing, that it must now be called a "tax".

However, if the rules don't constitute "proof" for you, what the heck would?


Mark - Unless I misread/misunderstood, Tornado's original supposition was that collection of the "penalty" was unenforceable, and his cite was an MSNBC article that was pretty nebulous, and that closed in saying that they could see the IRS actually being able to collect.
I'm not certain that we're disagreeing?


More on this from a scholarly assessment of tax law & practise Is it enforceable?...dowload the whole article for the well described position:

Conclusion
While the collection process for the tax penalty
has many similarities to the collection process for
existing federal tax liabilities, there are also significant
differences. The restrictions placed on the IRS’s
ability to collect the tax penalty make it unlikely the
IRS can effectively enforce the individual mandate.
The only major collection tool that remains unaffected
is the offset, which, by its nature, applies only
if the taxpayer happens to overpay her federal
income tax obligations or is entitled to a net refund
in a given year. Thus, many taxpayers who neglect
or refuse to pay the tax penalty could structure their
affairs in such a way as to avoid being subject to
legal consequences of any sort for years to come, if
ever. For those taxpayers, the individual mandate
may not actually be mandatory after all.



#113 RumBulls

RumBulls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,236 posts
  • Location:Boyne City
  • Interests:Was J24s
    Now is Olson30s

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:51 PM



#114 NautiGirl

NautiGirl

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,917 posts
  • Location:New Scotland

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:52 PM

Seems to me if you don't want to pay the tax, there's a way to avoid it...

#115 RumBulls

RumBulls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,236 posts
  • Location:Boyne City
  • Interests:Was J24s
    Now is Olson30s

Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:54 PM



#116 TornadoCAN99

TornadoCAN99

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,487 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:01 PM

Seems to me if you don't want to pay the tax, there's a way to avoid it...


It is at best unclear how this will be enforced given the unclear wording in the act around enforcement and what it means in the real world.

Eitherway, there are several provisions for seeking assistance for paying the mandate and for being excluded from the requirement. See a FactSheet link I provided earlier for these provisions & exemptions.

#117 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,775 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:05 PM




No...From what I read now it seems your incurance premium is now considered a tax you pay to a private company. Now we pay taxes to private companies?


No, the "penalty" that Congress claimed was not a tax (and man am I going to have some fun with that old thread) was ruled to be a tax.

I have long said that if Congress just admitted they were passing a tax, the constitutional problems would go away. They did not, and explicitly said they were regulating commerce and that that "tax" was a "penalty." That way, they were not "raising taxes." :rolleyes:

The Supreme Court corrected them, something I question the power of the court to do, but they did it.

Tom if I understood this ruling correctly - the "mandate" to buy private insurance was not the tax. Thr penalty for NOT buying it is what thr SCOTUS called the tax. Maybe I misunderstood it wrong when they were discussing it on NPR this morning..... And if thr mandate IS a tax, how do I pay tax to a private corporation?

So I'm honestly left wondering how obamacare is going to actually reduce costs. On the contrary, the SCOTUS just gave the green light to all the young healthy folk to NOT buy insurance until they get sick and instead pay the tiny tax penalty to avoid to mandate.

The elephant in the room here is that this HC act and the mandate, while well intentioned, is a joke without correspondingly adequate penalties/incentives to get all the young healthy folks into the pool to reduce the costs and cover the sick. So what happens to the person who pays the tiny penalty but suddenly needs significant medical care?


Nail on the head Jeff. Passing RomneyCare, as that was what could be passed in the Senate, doesn't solve the basic issue, which is the high cost of care. Insurance is just a (expensive) middleman. Why we get stuck on discussing uninsured rather than availability of quality, affordable health care is beyond me.


I agree too. The Act is a POS, yet it "moves the chains".

"If you can't solve a problem, enlarge it." -Ike.

#118 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:23 PM

I agree too. The Act is a POS, yet it "moves the chains".

"If you can't solve a problem, enlarge it." -Ike.

Now, will our "leaders" work to fix it or will we just see clenched fists, stamping feet and pouting on one side, and gloating on the other?

It's not like there wasn't precedent. Link.

#119 Dog

Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,476 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:45 PM

Obama Wins the Battle, Roberts Wins the War..

“Roberts' genius was in pushing this health care decision through without attaching it to the coattails of an ugly, narrow partisan victory. Obama wins on policy, this time. And Roberts rewrites Congress' power to regulate, opening the door for countless future challenges. In the long term, supporters of curtailing the federal government should be glad to have made that trade”.

Spin?

http://www.slate.com...re_.single.html

#120 Junkyard Dog

Junkyard Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts
  • Location:N/A
  • Interests:N/A

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:50 PM

Obama Wins the Battle, Roberts Wins the War..

“Roberts' genius was in pushing this health care decision through without attaching it to the coattails of an ugly, narrow partisan victory. Obama wins on policy, this time. And Roberts rewrites Congress' power to regulate, opening the door for countless future challenges. In the long term, supporters of curtailing the federal government should be glad to have made that trade”.

Spin?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/scocca/2012/06/roberts_health_care_opinion_commerce_clause_the_real_reason_the_chief_justice_upheld_obamacare_.single.html

Took em all day, but now they have something they sink their teeth into.

Hell yes, it's spin, but there may be some hunt in that dog. Time will tell.

#121 Remodel

Remodel

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,851 posts
  • Location:None
  • Interests:Sailboat racing and long distance cruising

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:54 PM

Obama Wins the Battle, Roberts Wins the War..

"Roberts' genius was in pushing this health care decision through without attaching it to the coattails of an ugly, narrow partisan victory. Obama wins on policy, this time. And Roberts rewrites Congress' power to regulate, opening the door for countless future challenges. In the long term, supporters of curtailing the federal government should be glad to have made that trade".

Spin?

http://www.slate.com...re_.single.html


It will be interesting to hear the hue and cry about which ones are the "Activist Judges"

Hee Haw!

#122 movable ballast

movable ballast

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,901 posts
  • Location:San Diego

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:56 PM


Obama Wins the Battle, Roberts Wins the War..

“Roberts' genius was in pushing this health care decision through without attaching it to the coattails of an ugly, narrow partisan victory. Obama wins on policy, this time. And Roberts rewrites Congress' power to regulate, opening the door for countless future challenges. In the long term, supporters of curtailing the federal government should be glad to have made that trade”.

Spin?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/scocca/2012/06/roberts_health_care_opinion_commerce_clause_the_real_reason_the_chief_justice_upheld_obamacare_.single.html

Took em all day, but now they have something they sink their teeth into.

Hell yes, it's spin, but there may be some hunt in that dog. Time will tell.


For most the ruling won't make that much difference. those with insurance will still have it, those without insurance who can afford it will need to get it or pay a fine, er I mean tax... those who can't afford it will be covered under medicade. I for one am stoked that the commerce clause went down. the rest can be figued out, repealed or forgotten.

#123 movable ballast

movable ballast

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,901 posts
  • Location:San Diego

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:57 PM


Obama Wins the Battle, Roberts Wins the War..

"Roberts' genius was in pushing this health care decision through without attaching it to the coattails of an ugly, narrow partisan victory. Obama wins on policy, this time. And Roberts rewrites Congress' power to regulate, opening the door for countless future challenges. In the long term, supporters of curtailing the federal government should be glad to have made that trade".

Spin?

http://www.slate.com...re_.single.html


It will be interesting to hear the hue and cry about which ones are the "Activist Judges"

Hee Haw!


Oh many will, it's part of the show.

#124 Occams Razor

Occams Razor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,949 posts
  • Location:San Francisco Bay
  • Interests:Rum

Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:07 PM


I agree too. The Act is a POS, yet it "moves the chains".

"If you can't solve a problem, enlarge it." -Ike.

Now, will our "leaders" work to fix it or will we just see clenched fists, stamping feet and pouting on one side, and gloating on the other?

It's not like there wasn't precedent. Link.


I think we'll have another significant difference between the candidates - the Rs will run on Repeal, the Ds will run on "fear of Repeal"

This election could come down to this single issue - and therefore one of the 2 parties will have a mandate. Unless of course there is a split decision, which I think is likely.

#125 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,775 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:21 PM

Obama Wins the Battle, Roberts Wins the War..

“Roberts' genius was in pushing this health care decision through without attaching it to the coattails of an ugly, narrow partisan victory. Obama wins on policy, this time. And Roberts rewrites Congress' power to regulate, opening the door for countless future challenges. In the long term, supporters of curtailing the federal government should be glad to have made that trade”.

Spin?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/scocca/2012/06/roberts_health_care_opinion_commerce_clause_the_real_reason_the_chief_justice_upheld_obamacare_.single.html


I hope it gives Justice Roberts enough time to get out of town today, but I think after a bit of hesitation the tar and feathers will still be prepared.

Somebody will figure out that the only people who can determine if that is what Justice Roberts did is the Supreme Court. Future courts can hang their hat on that, or they can hang their hat on previous interpretations. They can even make up new ones.

#126 VwaP

VwaP

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,835 posts
  • Location:Sunny South Florida
  • Interests:Private investigator by day party gurl by night

Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:21 PM


USDA suggests food stamp parties, games to increase participation
Published: 6:42 PM 06/27/2012





While spending on the food stamp program has increased 100 percent under President Barack Obama, the government continues to push more Americans to enroll in the welfare program.



The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) has embraced entire promotional campaigns designed to encourage eligible Americans to participate in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), or food stamps.



A pamphlet currently posted at the USDA website encourages local SNAP offices to throw parties as one way to get potentially eligible seniors to enroll in the program.



Throw a Great Party. Host social events where people mix and mingle,” the agency advises. “Make it fun by having activities, games, food, and entertainment, and provide information about SNAP. Putting SNAP information in a game format like BINGO, crossword puzzles, or even a ‘true/false’ quiz is fun and helps get your message across in a memorable way.”



Read more:

http://dailycaller.c.../#ixzz1z7ZXBMWM





#127 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,775 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:11 PM


I agree too. The Act is a POS, yet it "moves the chains".

"If you can't solve a problem, enlarge it." -Ike.

Now, will our "leaders" work to fix it or will we just see clenched fists, stamping feet and pouting on one side, and gloating on the other?

It's not like there wasn't precedent. Link.


Both, I would predict.

If they can't muster up the power to repeal it, they will be faced with narrow, specific problems it will present, and have to tackle them pragmatically, I guess. They say that people hate the bill, but like the things in it.

Sort of like Medicare itself, they "hate it", but know that when they actually try to do any actual damage to it they have to deal with 80% of the people liking it.



BTW, some guy on Sullivan's blog says Scalia's dissent contains many references to "Ginsberg's dissent", and that indicates that it may have been Scalia thought he was writing the ruling, and Roberts bailed on him somewhere along the line, so it became the dissent.

Must have pissed him off so bad he refused to go back and edit it.

#128 Tom Ray

Tom Ray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,877 posts
  • Location:Punta Gorda FL
  • Interests:~~/)/)~~

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:13 PM

The Commerce Clause comment was from Roberts. It was not the Court majority. Think of it as a dissent in the majority. I don't think it means anything.


I'm only partway through Roberts' opinion and can already say that is not true. This is from a part in which the left wing of the court joined:

The individual mandate, however, does not regulate existing commercial activity. It instead compels individ- uals to become active in commerce by purchasing a product, on the ground that their failure to do so affects interstate commerce. Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Con- gress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast do- main to congressional authority. Every day individuals do not do an infinite number of things. In some cases they decide not to do something; in others they simply fail to do it. Allowing Congress to justify federal regulation by pointing to the effect of inaction on commerce would bring countless decisions an individual could potentially make within the scope of federal regulation, and—under the Government’s theory—empower Congress to make those decisions for him.


Applying the Government’s logic to the familiar case of Wickard v. Filburn shows how far that logic would carry us from the notion of a government of limited powers.


Back to reading...

#129 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:17 PM

Both, I would predict.

If they can't muster up the power to repeal it, they will be faced with narrow, specific problems it will present, and have to tackle them pragmatically, I guess. They say that people hate the bill, but like the things in it.

Sort of like Medicare itself, they "hate it", but know that when they actually try to do any actual damage to it they have to deal with 80% of the people liking it.



BTW, some guy on Sullivan's blog says Scalia's dissent contains many references to "Ginsberg's dissent", and that indicates that it may have been Scalia thought he was writing the ruling, and Roberts bailed on him somewhere along the line, so it became the dissent.

Must have pissed him off so bad he refused to go back and edit it.

Talk about pissed off.



Caption contest?

Posted Image

#130 Olsonist

Olsonist

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,674 posts
  • Location:Oakland, CA

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:21 PM

Yes, I read (skimmed really) the opinion quickly and wrong.

It's interesting what Volokh is saying, that Scalia is referring to Ginsberg's dissenting opinion. This implies that Roberts changed his mind very very late.

#131 TMSAIL

TMSAIL

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,812 posts
  • Location:NW Chicago/Des Plaines

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:38 PM



I agree too. The Act is a POS, yet it "moves the chains".

"If you can't solve a problem, enlarge it." -Ike.

Now, will our "leaders" work to fix it or will we just see clenched fists, stamping feet and pouting on one side, and gloating on the other?

It's not like there wasn't precedent. Link.


Both, I would predict.

If they can't muster up the power to repeal it, they will be faced with narrow, specific problems it will present, and have to tackle them pragmatically, I guess. They say that people hate the bill, but like the things in it.

Sort of like Medicare itself, they "hate it", but know that when they actually try to do any actual damage to it they have to deal with 80% of the people liking it.



BTW, some guy on Sullivan's blog says Scalia's dissent contains many references to "Ginsberg's dissent", and that indicates that it may have been Scalia thought he was writing the ruling, and Roberts bailed on him somewhere along the line, so it became the dissent.

Must have pissed him off so bad he refused to go back and edit it.

Heard that. Looks like Roberts may have switched at the end.

#132 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:40 PM

Posted Image

#133 Patriot

Patriot

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 785 posts
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:42 PM

An interesting read on today's decision. To add, while it isn't said in the linked article, it seems that the rub between Roberts and Kennedy is that Kennedy calls out Roberts for going too far in his "judicial modesty" - Kennedy (or it may have been Scalia) contends that Roberts didn't merely interpret the law, but he re-wrote it in that Congress didn't pass this law based on their power to tax, yet that's how Roberts ultimately justifies it....in fact, while Congress and Obama were selling this to the American people, they explicitly said that they were not pushing it through based on the power to tax but rather under the Commerce Clause - and that rationale was summarily struck down today 5-4.

To counter Kennedy's argument on Roberts' overreach in re-writing the law, we have the following from the attached article:

Here, the Chief Justice adopted the view, which appears often in constitutional jurisprudence, that before a court overturns a statute as unconstitutional, it must resort to every reasonable interpretation of the statutory language to see whether the statute can be saved. This is part of the “judicial modesty” that Roberts likes to talk about. In his view, and the view of many, this approach guards against a “judicial activism” in which judges are too aggressive in thwarting the will of popularly elected branches of the government.

To find it reasonable to view the mandate as a tax, Roberts had to overcome Congress’ own characterization of the mandate as a penalty, not a tax. Here, Roberts noted that congressional labeling doesn’t control the nature of its actions for purposes of constitutional adjudication. This view also has support in court precedent.


http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/06/what-chief-justice-roberts-said-about-the-individual-mandate.php

All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?

#134 tikipete

tikipete

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,701 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:44 PM


USDA suggests food stamp parties, games to increase participation
Published: 6:42 PM 06/27/2012





While spending on the food stamp program has increased 100 percent under President Barack Obama, the government continues to push more Americans to enroll in the welfare program.



The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) has embraced entire promotional campaigns designed to encourage eligible Americans to participate in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), or food stamps.



A pamphlet currently posted at the USDA website encourages local SNAP offices to throw parties as one way to get potentially eligible seniors to enroll in the program.



"Throw a Great Party. Host social events where people mix and mingle," the agency advises. "Make it fun by having activities, games, food, and entertainment, and provide information about SNAP. Putting SNAP information in a game format like BINGO, crossword puzzles, or even a 'true/false' quiz is fun and helps get your message across in a memorable way."



Read more:

http://dailycaller.c.../#ixzz1z7ZXBMWM





Wonderful! When people are out of work, especially through no fault of their own, society should provide. If it becomes a problem we can always confiscate what we need from the rich.

#135 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,775 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:44 PM

Caption contest?

Posted Image


"News that the tanning booth tax is constitutional received mixed reactions."

#136 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:48 PM

All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?

Absolutely. It is a stunning rebuke of the Obama Administration, upholding the constitutionality of its signature legislative accomplishment. The Court really called them out!

#137 TMSAIL

TMSAIL

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,812 posts
  • Location:NW Chicago/Des Plaines

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:50 PM



USDA suggests food stamp parties, games to increase participation
Published: 6:42 PM 06/27/2012





While spending on the food stamp program has increased 100 percent under President Barack Obama, the government continues to push more Americans to enroll in the welfare program.



The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) has embraced entire promotional campaigns designed to encourage eligible Americans to participate in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), or food stamps.



A pamphlet currently posted at the USDA website encourages local SNAP offices to throw parties as one way to get potentially eligible seniors to enroll in the program.



"Throw a Great Party. Host social events where people mix and mingle," the agency advises. "Make it fun by having activities, games, food, and entertainment, and provide information about SNAP. Putting SNAP information in a game format like BINGO, crossword puzzles, or even a 'true/false' quiz is fun and helps get your message across in a memorable way."



Read more:

http://dailycaller.c.../#ixzz1z7ZXBMWM





Wonderful! When people are out of work, especially through no fault of their own, society should provide. If it becomes a problem we can always confiscate what we need from the rich.

Plenty of people on food stamps that are working. Case in point my neighbors daughter is living with them with her two kids, she has a job as a hair dressers that allows her To drives a nice car with vanity plates, gets new body art (tatoos) regularly and go to concerts several times a year. She also gets food stamps.

#138 saxdog

saxdog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,338 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:55 PM




Caption contest?

Posted Image


"News that the tanning booth tax is constitutional received mixed reactions."


"Too much salt on the rim."

#139 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:56 PM

Plenty of people on food stamps that are working. Case in point my neighbors daughter is living with them with her two kids, she has a job as a hair dressers that allows her To drives a nice car with vanity plates, gets new body art (tatoos) regularly and go to concerts several times a year. She also gets food stamps.

Perhaps we won't have to pay for her to get her health care at the ER now.

#140 Saorsa

Saorsa

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,270 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:56 PM



Plenty of people on food stamps that are working. Case in point my neighbors daughter is living with them with her two kids, she has a job as a hair dressers that allows her To drives a nice car with vanity plates, gets new body art (tatoos) regularly and go to concerts several times a year. She also gets food stamps.

Perhaps we won't have to pay for her to get her health care at the ER now.

How are we going to pay for it then? She sure as hell won't.

#141 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:59 PM




Plenty of people on food stamps that are working. Case in point my neighbors daughter is living with them with her two kids, she has a job as a hair dressers that allows her To drives a nice car with vanity plates, gets new body art (tatoos) regularly and go to concerts several times a year. She also gets food stamps.

Perhaps we won't have to pay for her to get her health care at the ER now.

How are we going to pay for it then? She sure as hell won't.

Through higher health care costs for those who pay for their care. Somebody has to pay for it.

#142 benwynn

benwynn

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,915 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:03 PM



All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?

Absolutely. It is a stunning rebuke of the Obama Administration, upholding the constitutionality of its signature legislative accomplishment. The Court really called them out!


This is the biggest failure of the Obama Adminstration since it's incorrect account of the details of the killing of Osama Bin Laden.

Ben

#143 Jon Eisberg

Jon Eisberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,360 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:16 PM




All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?

Absolutely. It is a stunning rebuke of the Obama Administration, upholding the constitutionality of its signature legislative accomplishment. The Court really called them out!


This is the biggest failure of the Obama Adminstration since it's incorrect account of the details of the killing of Osama Bin Laden.

Ben

And, in other news:

After further analysis of enhanced satellite imagery, National Park Service police revised their estimate of the crowd size at Glenn Beck's rally on the Washington Mall slightly upwards, which now stands at 138 million...

#144 tikipete

tikipete

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,701 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:25 PM

An interesting read on today's decision. To add, while it isn't said in the linked article, it seems that the rub between Roberts and Kennedy is that Kennedy calls out Roberts for going too far in his "judicial modesty" - Kennedy (or it may have been Scalia) contends that Roberts didn't merely interpret the law, but he re-wrote it in that Congress didn't pass this law based on their power to tax, yet that's how Roberts ultimately justifies it....in fact, while Congress and Obama were selling this to the American people, they explicitly said that they were not pushing it through based on the power to tax but rather under the Commerce Clause - and that rationale was summarily struck down today 5-4.

To counter Kennedy's argument on Roberts' overreach in re-writing the law, we have the following from the attached article:

Here, the Chief Justice adopted the view, which appears often in constitutional jurisprudence, that before a court overturns a statute as unconstitutional, it must resort to every reasonable interpretation of the statutory language to see whether the statute can be saved. This is part of the "judicial modesty" that Roberts likes to talk about. In his view, and the view of many, this approach guards against a "judicial activism" in which judges are too aggressive in thwarting the will of popularly elected branches of the government.

To find it reasonable to view the mandate as a tax, Roberts had to overcome Congress' own characterization of the mandate as a penalty, not a tax. Here, Roberts noted that congressional labeling doesn't control the nature of its actions for purposes of constitutional adjudication. This view also has support in court precedent.


http://www.powerline...ual-mandate.php

All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?


What's new?

I suspect the "precedent" Roberts refers to is based in the overturn of all the Jim Crow law's that masqueraded as State's Rights issues. So, yes, I'd say the court recognized that Congress, and Presidents lie frequently.

#145 Patriot

Patriot

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 785 posts
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:32 PM



All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?

Absolutely. It is a stunning rebuke of the Obama Administration, upholding the constitutionality of its signature legislative accomplishment. The Court really called them out!


Your irony would stand up to scrutiny a lot better had the Court upheld the Law based on the Commerce Clause, but it did not. It held up the Law based on Congress' power to tax, a power that both Congress and Obama steadfastly denied as the justification for the Law, except when it came to the arguments in front of the Court....

#146 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:36 PM

Think El Rushbo will live up to his word, or will he pull a Hannity and weasel out of it?

US Supreme Court is a Death Panel.

#147 badlatitude

badlatitude

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,423 posts
  • Location:Malibu, Ca.

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:46 PM



All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?

Absolutely. It is a stunning rebuke of the Obama Administration, upholding the constitutionality of its signature legislative accomplishment. The Court really called them out!


Your irony would stand up to scrutiny a lot better had the Court upheld the Law based on the Commerce Clause, but it did not. It held up the Law based on Congress' power to tax, a power that both Congress and Obama steadfastly denied as the justification for the Law, except when it came to the arguments in front of the Court....


Ilya Somin At Volokh:

It’s worth noting that Chief Justice Roberts’ opinion only briefly discusses the crucial question of whether the mandate – if it is a tax at all – turns out to be an unconstitutional “direct tax.” The four justice dissent by Alito, Kennedy, Scalia and Thomas properly takes him to task for this:

[W]e must observe that rewriting §5000A as a tax in order to sustain its constitutionality would force us to confront a difficult constitutional question: whether this is a direct tax that must be apportioned among the States according to their population. Art. I, §9, cl. 4. Perhaps itis not (we have no need to address the point); but the meaning of the Direct Tax Clause is famously unclear, and its application here is a question of first impression that deserves more thoughtful consideration than the lick-anda-promise accorded by the Government and its supporters. The Government’s opening brief did not even address the question—perhaps because, until today, no federal court has accepted the implausible argument that §5000A is an exercise of the tax power. And once respondents raised the issue, the Government devoted a mere 21 lines of its reply brief to the issue….



#148 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,775 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:51 PM

Think El Rushbo will live up to his word, or will he pull a Hannity and weasel out of it?

US Supreme Court is a Death Panel.


Second Amendment time!

http://sipseystreeti...k-thursday.html

#149 benwynn

benwynn

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,915 posts

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:52 PM

Think El Rushbo will live up to his word, or will he pull a Hannity and weasel out of it?

US Supreme Court is a Death Panel.


Ratings require Rush Limbaugh to not only sound like a complete lunatic, but to raise the bar in that regard continuously. I admire him for keeping it up for this long. I figure he will retire just short of the point where he has to start cutting off limbs.

#150 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:59 PM




All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?

Absolutely. It is a stunning rebuke of the Obama Administration, upholding the constitutionality of its signature legislative accomplishment. The Court really called them out!


Your irony would stand up to scrutiny a lot better had the Court upheld the Law based on the Commerce Clause, but it did not. It held up the Law based on Congress' power to tax, a power that both Congress and Obama steadfastly denied as the justification for the Law, except when it came to the arguments in front of the Court....

That was sarcasm, not irony, and it doesn't have to withstand scrutiny because I am not on a Death Panel. I have health insurance, so I will not be "taxed" for not having it.

#151 Patriot

Patriot

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 785 posts
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:06 PM




All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?

Absolutely. It is a stunning rebuke of the Obama Administration, upholding the constitutionality of its signature legislative accomplishment. The Court really called them out!


Your irony would stand up to scrutiny a lot better had the Court upheld the Law based on the Commerce Clause, but it did not. It held up the Law based on Congress' power to tax, a power that both Congress and Obama steadfastly denied as the justification for the Law, except when it came to the arguments in front of the Court....


Ilya Somin At Volokh:

It’s worth noting that Chief Justice Roberts’ opinion only briefly discusses the crucial question of whether the mandate – if it is a tax at all – turns out to be an unconstitutional “direct tax.” The four justice dissent by Alito, Kennedy, Scalia and Thomas properly takes him to task for this:

[W]e must observe that rewriting §5000A as a tax in order to sustain its constitutionality would force us to confront a difficult constitutional question: whether this is a direct tax that must be apportioned among the States according to their population. Art. I, §9, cl. 4. Perhaps itis not (we have no need to address the point); but the meaning of the Direct Tax Clause is famously unclear, and its application here is a question of first impression that deserves more thoughtful consideration than the lick-anda-promise accorded by the Government and its supporters. The Government’s opening brief did not even address the question—perhaps because, until today, no federal court has accepted the implausible argument that §5000A is an exercise of the tax power. And once respondents raised the issue, the Government devoted a mere 21 lines of its reply brief to the issue….


Good point, and experts who are much more well-versed in the applicable law(s) here will focus in on the "direct tax" issue for sure....I've already heard it being discussed by legal folks on my ride to work this morning. By the way, I didn't render an opinion on how sound the majority's position is in this case, I just merely indicated that they based their decision on Congress' power to tax. Whether that's a sound position or not will be debated for a long time to come....and taken at face value, using the power to tax as the basis for upholding the law seems embarrassing to say the least for both the supporters in Congress and Obama....I can see the commercials from the GOP now - juxtaposing Obama/others saying that "this isn't a tax" with excerpts from the majority's opinion stating that yes, it is in fact a tax......a fine lesson in just cuz Congress/Obama says it doen't make it so....

#152 Patriot

Patriot

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 785 posts
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:13 PM





All in all, I can't help but wonder if the action of the Supreme Court today has basically called out those in Congress who voted for the Act (and Obama himself) as being liars. In further support of that view, in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court, didn't the government justify its position based on Congress' power to tax?

Absolutely. It is a stunning rebuke of the Obama Administration, upholding the constitutionality of its signature legislative accomplishment. The Court really called them out!


Your irony would stand up to scrutiny a lot better had the Court upheld the Law based on the Commerce Clause, but it did not. It held up the Law based on Congress' power to tax, a power that both Congress and Obama steadfastly denied as the justification for the Law, except when it came to the arguments in front of the Court....

That was sarcasm, not irony, and it doesn't have to withstand scrutiny because I am not on a Death Panel. I have health insurance, so I will not be "taxed" for not having it.


I stand corrected - sarcasm for sure....wrong choice of words on my part - its been a long day at work! I disagree on the scrutiny bit, it least as it will be applied to Congress and Obama because they've got a bit of egg on their face to say it wasn't a tax yet their legal team argued as such in front of the Court, and the Court ultimately agreed. Over to the GOP to spin away on that one, as I'm certain they'll seize on the opportunity....

#153 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:29 PM

I stand corrected - sarcasm for sure....wrong choice of words on my part - its been a long day at work! I disagree on the scrutiny bit, it least as it will be applied to Congress and Obama because they've got a bit of egg on their face to say it wasn't a tax yet their legal team argued as such in front of the Court, and the Court ultimately agreed. Over to the GOP to spin away on that one, as I'm certain they'll seize on the opportunity....

Of course it's spin, but will it play with anyone other than a reliable voter anyway? There are parts of this law that are good, like taking away an insurance company's ability to take in premiums from someone up to the point when they get sick, then drop them. Do you really think that repealing this in its entirety is a viable option to anyone other than those who have never voted for anyone but The Party's candidate in any election ever? Would this not be a good time for Congress to get to work on identifying the parts of this law that are good, and fixing the parts that are not?

#154 badlatitude

badlatitude

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,423 posts
  • Location:Malibu, Ca.

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:31 PM

I thought the snippet was enough to define what a "tax" is, but I guess not. Here is the whole quote:





"Some, including co-blogger Orin Kerr, have argued that today’s ruling that the individual mandate is a tax rests on a mere technicality. The mandate could have been a tax if only Congress had labeled it as such or structured it slightly differently, and so it makes sense for the Court to assume that it is a tax rather than invalidate an important law.

But the argument that this is not a tax has never been just about labeling or technicalities. The mandate is substantively a penalty rather than a tax, for reasons I explained here:

As recently as 1996, the Supreme Court reiterated the crucial distinction between a penalty and a tax. It ruled that “[a] tax is a pecuniary burden laid upon individuals or property for the purpose of supporting the Government,” while a penalty is “an exaction imposed by statute as punishment for an unlawful act” or – as in the case of the individual mandate – an unlawful omission. The individual mandate is a clear example of a penalty, where Congress requires people to purchase health insurance, and then punishes them with a fine if they fail to comply.

In September 2009, President Obama himself noted that “for us to say that you’ve got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase.” He was right….

Even if the individual mandate does somehow qualify as a tax, it is not one of the types of taxes that Congress is authorized to impose. The Constitution gives Congress the power to enact several types of taxes: Excise taxes, duties and imposts, income taxes, and “direct taxes” that must be apportioned among the states in proportion to population.

No one, including the federal government, claims that the individual mandate is a duty or an impost. The individual mandate is not an income tax because an income tax must target some “accession to wealth,” in the words of Commissioner of Internal Revenue v. Glenshaw Glass Co., the leading Supreme Court case on the subject. The fine imposed by the mandate does not target any accession to wealth or flow of income. It simply forces individuals to pay a penalty if they disobey the federal government’s regulatory requirement. The fact that low-income individuals are exempted does not change this analysis. A fine for jaywalking would not become an income tax if low-income individuals were exempted from it….

It is even more implausible to suggest that the mandate is an excise tax. Excise taxes apply to economic transactions or the use of property of some kind. For example, a tax on the sale of alcoholic beverages qualifies as an excise. The individual mandate does not tax any kind of activity, use of property or economic transaction….
If the mandate is not a tariff, impost, income tax, or excise tax, it is either a direct tax or no tax at all. And if it is a direct tax, it would be an unconstitutional one, because it is not apportioned among the states in proportion to population as the Constitution requires.

Even if Congress had called the mandate a a tax, that still would not have made it constitutional. But to the extent that labeling does matter, it’s not just a pure legal technicality. Those who argue that Congress has a virtually unlimited power to impose taxes claim that the main constraint on this power is political accountability. But that accountability is undermined if the federal government can pretend that a bill is not a tax in order to get it enacted, and then turn around and claim it is a tax when it comes time to defend the law in Court. Had President Obama and the Democratic leaders in Congress announced this was a tax from the start, it likely would not have passed in the first place.

Ultimately, the constitutionality of this law doesn’t turn on labels. Labeling this penalty a tax would not have made it so. But for those who believe that political accountability is the sole constraint on the tax power, labels are not mere legal tecnicalities either."



#155 VwaP

VwaP

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,835 posts
  • Location:Sunny South Florida
  • Interests:Private investigator by day party gurl by night

Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:48 PM



June 24, 2012
Obama's 'They'-Did-It Campaign
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online

The next five months should be interesting — given that Barack Obama is now experiencing something entirely unique in his heretofore stellar career: widespread criticism of his performance and increasing weariness with his boilerplate and his teleprompted eloquence.

Starting with his Occidental days, and going on through Columbia, Harvard, Chicago, the US Senate, and the 2008 campaign, rarely has Mr. Obama faced much criticism, much less any accountability that would involve judging his rhetoric by actual achievement.

Yet what worked for so long now does no longer. Obama simply cannot run on 40 months of 8 percent-plus unemployment, a June 2009 recovery that sputtered, $5 trillion in new debt, serial $1 trillion-plus annual deficits, and dismal GDP growth. Few believe any more that what he and the Democratic Congress passed in the first two years of his administration worked — and fewer still that the Republicans are to blame in the last 17 months for stopping him from pursuing even more disastrous policies. He cannot turn instead to the advantages of Obamacare, a dynamic foreign policy, national-security sobriety, a scandal-free administration, or stellar presidential appointments. The furor over security leaks makes it harder to keep conjuring up the ghost of Osama bin Laden.

What then to expect if the race remains tight or Obama finds himself behind?

1. There will be lots more "the dog ate my homework" excuses for the dismal economy. The troubles in the EU, the Japanese tsunami, the East Coast earthquake, ATM machines, Wall Street, inclement weather, the Republican Congress, the Tea Party, and George W. Bush have pretty much been exhausted. But there is always hurricane season, a Greek exit from the euro, or a Middle East flare-up. Expect sometime before October to hear that a new "they" upset the brilliant recovery and is to blame for the chronic economic lethargy. One of the strangest aspects of Obama's rationalizations is their utter incoherence and illogic: He brags that America pumped more oil and gas under his watch, even as he did his best to stop just that on public lands; he brags that he put in fewer regulations than did Bush, even as he boasts that he reined in business; he brags that he had to borrow $5 trillion to grow government in order to save the country, even as he claims he reduced the size of government. Why does Obama try to take credit for things on Tuesday that he damned on Monday? Is his new campaign theme:Despite (rather than because of) Obama?

#156 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:00 AM

New Nazi Alert!!!

Posted Image

#157 ease the sheet!

ease the sheet!

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,914 posts
  • Location:melbourne australia

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:01 AM

this is what health insurance costs here, read it and weep


http://www.iselect.c...4629d09e9cfa95e

#158 kmccabe

kmccabe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,515 posts
  • Location:Belly of the Beast.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:02 AM




The whole point is that health insurance is to expensive for many many americans. It's not that peple don't want it, they can't affford it, and it is getting more expensive by the day.


THAT is very true - I know two people who'd be alive today if we just had national health care.

Same here, guy I grew up with had worker's comp - kept treating his back problem as an injury, he died of bone cancer and it was a miserable death. That was last year.

The comments on people who are now going to move to Canada is truly funny, in a "I can't believe Americans are that ignorant" kind of way.


I don't have a problem with the goal, just how they got to that goal.

#159 HardOnWind

HardOnWind

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 979 posts
  • Location:Tacoma, WA

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:14 AM

Everything is a socialist plot......

Posted Image


#160 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,775 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:26 AM





The whole point is that health insurance is to expensive for many many americans. It's not that peple don't want it, they can't affford it, and it is getting more expensive by the day.


THAT is very true - I know two people who'd be alive today if we just had national health care.

Same here, guy I grew up with had worker's comp - kept treating his back problem as an injury, he died of bone cancer and it was a miserable death. That was last year.

The comments on people who are now going to move to Canada is truly funny, in a "I can't believe Americans are that ignorant" kind of way.


I don't have a problem with the goal, just how they got to that goal.


Sorry. It may look bad to run around telling people the very things we supported just awhile ago are "death panels", and even trying to screw it up by refusing to help block Leiberman and the insurance companies from making it theirs, but making Obama a one term president isn't a task for pussies. You have to be tough.

#161 plchacker

plchacker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,016 posts
  • Location:Helwestern AL

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:47 AM

As always, I will vote.

#162 craigiri

craigiri

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,626 posts
  • Location:Home of US Sailing
  • Interests:Sailing, Innovation, Web Development, Writing, etc.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:49 AM

As always, I will vote.


Let me guess......Alabama will do team red?

I don't have a problem with the goal, just how they got to that goal.


Ah, so you like sausage and scrapple and steaks too? How about mushrooms - grown in shit?

#163 Tom Ray

Tom Ray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,877 posts
  • Location:Punta Gorda FL
  • Interests:~~/)/)~~

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:55 AM

Those who argue that Congress has a virtually unlimited power to impose taxes claim that the main constraint on this power is political accountability. But that accountability is undermined if the federal government can pretend that a bill is not a tax in order to get it enacted, and then turn around and claim it is a tax when it comes time to defend the law in Court. Had President Obama and the Democratic leaders in Congress announced this was a tax from the start, it likely would not have passed in the first place.


The original versions of the bill, which I will soon dig up the threads about, did use the word tax. They changed it to penalty for political reasons and that change was used for those political reasons right here on this board.

Anyone who wants to save me the trouble can go ahead and call himself out on that point now and I'll ignore you. ;)

#164 Tom Ray

Tom Ray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,877 posts
  • Location:Punta Gorda FL
  • Interests:~~/)/)~~

Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:10 AM

Oh, this "constitutional layman" turned out to be 100% correct with my common sense assumption that if the Supremes struck down this tax, then ANY tax - or at least many taxes, would be up for grabs.


Some of us are reading the opinions to learn how we were wrong. Others relax in the self-satisfied assumption of perpetual correctness.

This attitude explains a lot.

#165 benwynn

benwynn

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,915 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:15 AM


Oh, this "constitutional layman" turned out to be 100% correct with my common sense assumption that if the Supremes struck down this tax, then ANY tax - or at least many taxes, would be up for grabs.


Some of us are reading the opinions to learn how we were wrong. Others relax in the self-satisfied assumption of perpetual correctness.

This attitude explains a lot.


A broken clock is correct twice a day. In perpetuity.

#166 Joker

Joker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 965 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:20 AM

I'd like to hear what the republican alternative is, it used to be individual mandates. I guess they flip flopped on that.

#167 4knotSB

4knotSB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,440 posts
  • Location:75.8760W 39.5142N

Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:38 AM

I'm getting quite a chuckle from all these folks tweeting that they are "moving to Canada" because of the "socialist" Supreme Court ruling.

http://www.buzzfeed....se-of-obamacare

The Zombie Apocalypse is everywhere.

#168 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:43 AM

I'd like to hear what the republican alternative is, it used to be individual mandates. I guess they flip flopped on that.

Bill Comparison

#169 craigiri

craigiri

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,626 posts
  • Location:Home of US Sailing
  • Interests:Sailing, Innovation, Web Development, Writing, etc.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:54 AM


Oh, this "constitutional layman" turned out to be 100% correct with my common sense assumption that if the Supremes struck down this tax, then ANY tax - or at least many taxes, would be up for grabs.


Some of us are reading the opinions to learn how we were wrong. Others relax in the self-satisfied assumption of perpetual correctness.

This attitude explains a lot.


Yes, the courts and government expect every citizen to read the thousands of pages they spit out daily and then absorb it and pontificate endless on it.

#170 craigiri

craigiri

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,626 posts
  • Location:Home of US Sailing
  • Interests:Sailing, Innovation, Web Development, Writing, etc.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:56 AM

I'd like to hear what the republican alternative is, it used to be individual mandates. I guess they flip flopped on that.


Now you're asking for too much!

As if they had a plan! They'll make up a 3 page one by friday! It will say:

Sell insurance over state lines.
Let the bull run
and
Get rid of the lawyers.

There. That is a plan.

Seriously, they don't want a plan because they want people to work in indentured servitude their whole lives. They want people to be squeezed. It makes them feel superior.....since they usually have health insurance provided by the government (congress) or by some large institution.

#171 Micksails

Micksails

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 219 posts
  • Location:Bellingham, WA.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:54 AM



I stand corrected - sarcasm for sure....wrong choice of words on my part - its been a long day at work! I disagree on the scrutiny bit, it least as it will be applied to Congress and Obama because they've got a bit of egg on their face to say it wasn't a tax yet their legal team argued as such in front of the Court, and the Court ultimately agreed. Over to the GOP to spin away on that one, as I'm certain they'll seize on the opportunity....

Of course it's spin, but will it play with anyone other than a reliable voter anyway? There are parts of this law that are good, like taking away an insurance company's ability to take in premiums from someone up to the point when they get sick, then drop them. Do you really think that repealing this in its entirety is a viable option to anyone other than those who have never voted for anyone but The Party's candidate in any election ever? Would this not be a good time for Congress to get to work on identifying the parts of this law that are good, and fixing the parts that are not?

You're dreamin' dude! Repeal it, start over! We're gonna be taxed to the moon if this goes through.

#172 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:58 AM




I stand corrected - sarcasm for sure....wrong choice of words on my part - its been a long day at work! I disagree on the scrutiny bit, it least as it will be applied to Congress and Obama because they've got a bit of egg on their face to say it wasn't a tax yet their legal team argued as such in front of the Court, and the Court ultimately agreed. Over to the GOP to spin away on that one, as I'm certain they'll seize on the opportunity....

Of course it's spin, but will it play with anyone other than a reliable voter anyway? There are parts of this law that are good, like taking away an insurance company's ability to take in premiums from someone up to the point when they get sick, then drop them. Do you really think that repealing this in its entirety is a viable option to anyone other than those who have never voted for anyone but The Party's candidate in any election ever? Would this not be a good time for Congress to get to work on identifying the parts of this law that are good, and fixing the parts that are not?

You're dreamin' dude! Repeal it, start over! We're gonna be taxed to the moon if this goes through.

If it goes through? News flash. It went through. The court signed off on it. If you have health insurance, you don't get taxed to the moon. If you don't have health insurance, you can get it, or...

Define taxed to the moon. What is the amount that you will be paying if you choose to go without health coverage?

#173 Micksails

Micksails

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 219 posts
  • Location:Bellingham, WA.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:07 AM


I'd like to hear what the republican alternative is, it used to be individual mandates. I guess they flip flopped on that.


Now you're asking for too much!

As if they had a plan! They'll make up a 3 page one by friday! It will say:

Sell insurance over state lines.
Let the bull run
and
Get rid of the lawyers.

There. That is a plan.

Seriously, they don't want a plan because they want people to work in indentured servitude their whole lives. They want people to be squeezed. It makes them feel superior.....since they usually have health insurance provided by the government (congress) or by some large institution.

WTF are you talkin' about? I believe you are delusional at best! I can't believe you are such a marxist whore! What is wrong with personal responsibility and self reliance? It's obviouse you believe that it's the government's role to take care of the electorate, subjugate them with entitlements, and make them dependant on the system. What a dumb ass you are!

#174 Micksails

Micksails

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 219 posts
  • Location:Bellingham, WA.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:12 AM





I stand corrected - sarcasm for sure....wrong choice of words on my part - its been a long day at work! I disagree on the scrutiny bit, it least as it will be applied to Congress and Obama because they've got a bit of egg on their face to say it wasn't a tax yet their legal team argued as such in front of the Court, and the Court ultimately agreed. Over to the GOP to spin away on that one, as I'm certain they'll seize on the opportunity....

Of course it's spin, but will it play with anyone other than a reliable voter anyway? There are parts of this law that are good, like taking away an insurance company's ability to take in premiums from someone up to the point when they get sick, then drop them. Do you really think that repealing this in its entirety is a viable option to anyone other than those who have never voted for anyone but The Party's candidate in any election ever? Would this not be a good time for Congress to get to work on identifying the parts of this law that are good, and fixing the parts that are not?

You're dreamin' dude! Repeal it, start over! We're gonna be taxed to the moon if this goes through.

If it goes through? News flash. It went through. The court signed off on it. If you have health insurance, you don't get taxed to the moon. If you don't have health insurance, you can get it, or...

Define taxed to the moon. What is the amount that you will be paying if you choose to go without health coverage?

Well, lets add this "little tax" increase to the additional tax increas we get when the Bush tax cuts expire. You, sir, are an idiot!

#175 tq2000

tq2000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,150 posts
  • Location:East Stroudsburg, PA
  • Interests:boats and bourbon

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:14 AM

seems someone kicked a hornets nest.

#176 Spatial Ed

Spatial Ed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,553 posts
  • Location:Outer Darkness
  • Interests:Outrage

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:26 AM

seems someone kicked a hornets nest.

Someone kicked the stupid nest. I expect nanny and Carl back anytime now.

#177 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,775 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:26 AM

seems someone kicked a hornets nest.


We have one of those. Just ID'd the critters.

http://en.wikipedia....ld-faced_hornet

High enough in a tree that it's not really a problem. Have an apple tree and they seem to like it. They tell us that these critters like to eat other bugs so we are going to leave them be for now.

If something hits the hive they swarm out and all fly in a clockwise circle around the tree about 20 feet in diameter. In about 5 minutes they are all back inside.

#178 benwynn

benwynn

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,915 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:28 AM






I stand corrected - sarcasm for sure....wrong choice of words on my part - its been a long day at work! I disagree on the scrutiny bit, it least as it will be applied to Congress and Obama because they've got a bit of egg on their face to say it wasn't a tax yet their legal team argued as such in front of the Court, and the Court ultimately agreed. Over to the GOP to spin away on that one, as I'm certain they'll seize on the opportunity....

Of course it's spin, but will it play with anyone other than a reliable voter anyway? There are parts of this law that are good, like taking away an insurance company's ability to take in premiums from someone up to the point when they get sick, then drop them. Do you really think that repealing this in its entirety is a viable option to anyone other than those who have never voted for anyone but The Party's candidate in any election ever? Would this not be a good time for Congress to get to work on identifying the parts of this law that are good, and fixing the parts that are not?

You're dreamin' dude! Repeal it, start over! We're gonna be taxed to the moon if this goes through.

If it goes through? News flash. It went through. The court signed off on it. If you have health insurance, you don't get taxed to the moon. If you don't have health insurance, you can get it, or...

Define taxed to the moon. What is the amount that you will be paying if you choose to go without health coverage?

Well, lets add this "little tax" increase to the additional tax increas we get when the Bush tax cuts expire. You, sir, are an idiot!


I don't think he understood the question. Sol... Try asking it again.

#179 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:31 AM






I stand corrected - sarcasm for sure....wrong choice of words on my part - its been a long day at work! I disagree on the scrutiny bit, it least as it will be applied to Congress and Obama because they've got a bit of egg on their face to say it wasn't a tax yet their legal team argued as such in front of the Court, and the Court ultimately agreed. Over to the GOP to spin away on that one, as I'm certain they'll seize on the opportunity....

Of course it's spin, but will it play with anyone other than a reliable voter anyway? There are parts of this law that are good, like taking away an insurance company's ability to take in premiums from someone up to the point when they get sick, then drop them. Do you really think that repealing this in its entirety is a viable option to anyone other than those who have never voted for anyone but The Party's candidate in any election ever? Would this not be a good time for Congress to get to work on identifying the parts of this law that are good, and fixing the parts that are not?

You're dreamin' dude! Repeal it, start over! We're gonna be taxed to the moon if this goes through.

If it goes through? News flash. It went through. The court signed off on it. If you have health insurance, you don't get taxed to the moon. If you don't have health insurance, you can get it, or...

Define taxed to the moon. What is the amount that you will be paying if you choose to go without health coverage?

Well, lets add this "little tax" increase to the additional tax increas we get when the Bush tax cuts expire. You, sir, are an idiot!

Who can argue with that? You clearly are the brains of the GOP.

#180 Spatial Ed

Spatial Ed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,553 posts
  • Location:Outer Darkness
  • Interests:Outrage

Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:32 AM

He's got my vote.

#181 Regatta Dog

Regatta Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,981 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:02 AM

Why we get stuck on discussing uninsured rather than availability of quality, affordable health care is beyond me.

Bingo. As a nation, we can put human beings on the moon, but we cannot get our representatives to discuss the provision of health care to our citizens as anything but a mechanism for putting $ in the pockets of industries that do little but provide obstacles to health care. Sometimes, I wish someone could sit our representatives down on the sidewalk at Cal Davis, put on that cop's uniform, and casually walk down the line and pepper spray the bastards, laughing the whole time. I jest, but that would be grand entertainment.


A most poignant post, Sol.

Thanks.

#182 JBSF

JBSF

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,395 posts
  • Location:Abu Dhabi Do!
  • Interests:Racing, diving, cycling, flying, pussy, shooting and any other action sports.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 05:04 AM

For most the ruling won't make that much difference. those with insurance will still have it, those without insurance who can afford it will need to get it or pay a fine, er I mean tax... those who can't afford it will be covered under medicade. I for one am stoked that the commerce clause went down. the rest can be figued out, repealed or forgotten.

but no one still has answered the question about how we pay for the people who choose to NOT buy insurance and pay the penalty? There is no freaking way in hell that the tiny amount of tax collected will offset the cost of that person's cancer treatments or coronary bypass surgery when they present at the hospital without insurance. If the penalty is too low, as it is now - you've just incentivized further the idea of not buying insurance until it's needed. Especially with pre-existing conditions removed off the table.

IMHO, this act just INCREASED the cost of HC rather than decreased it.

#183 the_abandoned_brane

the_abandoned_brane

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,151 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 05:40 AM



For most the ruling won't make that much difference. those with insurance will still have it, those without insurance who can afford it will need to get it or pay a fine, er I mean tax... those who can't afford it will be covered under medicade. I for one am stoked that the commerce clause went down. the rest can be figued out, repealed or forgotten.

but no one still has answered the question about how we pay for the people who choose to NOT buy insurance and pay the penalty? There is no freaking way in hell that the tiny amount of tax collected will offset the cost of that person's cancer treatments or coronary bypass surgery when they present at the hospital without insurance. If the penalty is too low, as it is now - you've just incentivized further the idea of not buying insurance until it's needed. Especially with pre-existing conditions removed off the table.

IMHO, this act just INCREASED the cost of HC rather than decreased it.



despte what MB says, this will affect almost everyone. except unions and gov. employees, as thos that wont be buying insurance will be subsidized by those that do.

btw: this was a bad decision. this allows the gov. to force everyone to buy horse buggies, and tax those that arent willing to.

this decision was and endless black hole sucking up personal liberties.

#184 Clove Hitch

Clove Hitch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,166 posts
  • Location:around and about
  • Interests:Green water over the bow, medical care in primitive, challenging environments, high stakes chess games.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 07:28 AM



June 24, 2012
Obama's 'They'-Did-It Campaign
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online

The next five months should be interesting — given that Barack Obama is now experiencing something entirely unique in his heretofore stellar career: widespread criticism of his performance and increasing weariness with his boilerplate and his teleprompted eloquence.

Starting with his Occidental days, and going on through Columbia, Harvard, Chicago, the US Senate, and the 2008 campaign, rarely has Mr. Obama faced much criticism, much less any accountability that would involve judging his rhetoric by actual achievement.

Yet what worked for so long now does no longer. Obama simply cannot run on 40 months of 8 percent-plus unemployment, a June 2009 recovery that sputtered, $5 trillion in new debt, serial $1 trillion-plus annual deficits, and dismal GDP growth. Few believe any more that what he and the Democratic Congress passed in the first two years of his administration worked — and fewer still that the Republicans are to blame in the last 17 months for stopping him from pursuing even more disastrous policies. He cannot turn instead to the advantages of Obamacare, a dynamic foreign policy, national-security sobriety, a scandal-free administration, or stellar presidential appointments. The furor over security leaks makes it harder to keep conjuring up the ghost of Osama bin Laden.

What then to expect if the race remains tight or Obama finds himself behind?

1. There will be lots more "the dog ate my homework" excuses for the dismal economy. The troubles in the EU, the Japanese tsunami, the East Coast earthquake, ATM machines, Wall Street, inclement weather, the Republican Congress, the Tea Party, and George W. Bush have pretty much been exhausted. But there is always hurricane season, a Greek exit from the euro, or a Middle East flare-up. Expect sometime before October to hear that a new "they" upset the brilliant recovery and is to blame for the chronic economic lethargy. One of the strangest aspects of Obama's rationalizations is their utter incoherence and illogic: He brags that America pumped more oil and gas under his watch, even as he did his best to stop just that on public lands; he brags that he put in fewer regulations than did Bush, even as he boasts that he reined in business; he brags that he had to borrow $5 trillion to grow government in order to save the country, even as he claims he reduced the size of government. Why does Obama try to take credit for things on Tuesday that he damned on Monday? Is his new campaign theme:Despite (rather than because of) Obama?


Victor David Hanson? Seriously? Shouldn't he be writing about how we'll find WMDs in Iraq if we keep looking?




#185 Clove Hitch

Clove Hitch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,166 posts
  • Location:around and about
  • Interests:Green water over the bow, medical care in primitive, challenging environments, high stakes chess games.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 07:32 AM


For most the ruling won't make that much difference. those with insurance will still have it, those without insurance who can afford it will need to get it or pay a fine, er I mean tax... those who can't afford it will be covered under medicade. I for one am stoked that the commerce clause went down. the rest can be figued out, repealed or forgotten.

but no one still has answered the question about how we pay for the people who choose to NOT buy insurance and pay the penalty? There is no freaking way in hell that the tiny amount of tax collected will offset the cost of that person's cancer treatments or coronary bypass surgery when they present at the hospital without insurance. If the penalty is too low, as it is now - you've just incentivized further the idea of not buying insurance until it's needed. Especially with pre-existing conditions removed off the table.

IMHO, this act just INCREASED the cost of HC rather than decreased it.


Jeff, it's a tepid law that doesn't fix any of the fundamental problems of the system. That's why far lefties (like me, who did not vote for Obama) dislike it. At the end of the day, you'll have insurance companies cooking their books a bit to adjust their income. There is no apocalypse. I do worry about the expansion of federal power in terms of "taxation." But fans of justice Roberts can explain that.

#186 Tom Ray

Tom Ray

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,877 posts
  • Location:Punta Gorda FL
  • Interests:~~/)/)~~

Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:20 AM

What is the amount that you will be paying if you choose to go without health coverage?


If people were asked to guess what rate they would be paying shortly after our income tax was first passed, none would guess the rates we are paying today, let alone ones we have seen in the past.

The answer to your question, of course, is whatever amount the politicians decide. It's a comforting answer only to people like myself, who will now be able to get insurance. I should warn the rest of you that people with money on the line are pretty sure that something horrible and expensive is going to happen to me. So get back to work. You're going to have to pay for it somehow. :P

#187 Dog

Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,476 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:08 AM



For most the ruling won't make that much difference. those with insurance will still have it, those without insurance who can afford it will need to get it or pay a fine, er I mean tax... those who can't afford it will be covered under medicade. I for one am stoked that the commerce clause went down. the rest can be figued out, repealed or forgotten.

but no one still has answered the question about how we pay for the people who choose to NOT buy insurance and pay the penalty? There is no freaking way in hell that the tiny amount of tax collected will offset the cost of that person's cancer treatments or coronary bypass surgery when they present at the hospital without insurance. If the penalty is too low, as it is now - you've just incentivized further the idea of not buying insurance until it's needed. Especially with pre-existing conditions removed off the table.

IMHO, this act just INCREASED the cost of HC rather than decreased it.

And as a self employed guy who pays for my own insurance that option is looking pretty attractive and there are millions like me thinking the same thing. Afterall, if I pay the tax I'm intitled to the benefit. We just borrow the money from the Chinese and hand the bill to the kids.

#188 NautiGirl

NautiGirl

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,917 posts
  • Location:New Scotland

Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:15 AM

I'm having a hard time understanding why the same people who advocate individual responsibility and that people need to take responsibility for themselves by having health insurance have such a hard time with the government saying if you don't take responsibility for yourself by buying health insurance, we will penalize you financially. How is it any different than the penalties imposed by not doing the responsible thing and filing your taxes?

#189 NautiGirl

NautiGirl

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,917 posts
  • Location:New Scotland

Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:20 AM


For most the ruling won't make that much difference. those with insurance will still have it, those without insurance who can afford it will need to get it or pay a fine, er I mean tax... those who can't afford it will be covered under medicade. I for one am stoked that the commerce clause went down. the rest can be figued out, repealed or forgotten.

but no one still has answered the question about how we pay for the people who choose to NOT buy insurance and pay the penalty? There is no freaking way in hell that the tiny amount of tax collected will offset the cost of that person's cancer treatments or coronary bypass surgery when they present at the hospital without insurance. If the penalty is too low, as it is now - you've just incentivized further the idea of not buying insurance until it's needed. Especially with pre-existing conditions removed off the table.

IMHO, this act just INCREASED the cost of HC rather than decreased it.



I would imagine the vast majority of people woud happily by health insurance if they qualified and if they could afford it, and those are the people that will be particularly helped by this.

I do think your government needs to take a long hard look at Big Pharma. You are the only country in the world that doesn't regulate the costs of drugs, and requires that Medicaid pay full cost for drugs. But good luck with that, given Big Pharma spends a whole lot of money to keep your politicians in their back pocket.

#190 Battlecheese

Battlecheese

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,101 posts
  • Interests:Sailing, music, physics.

Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:24 AM

I'm having a hard time understanding why the same people who advocate individual responsibility and that people need to take responsibility for themselves by having health insurance have such a hard time with the government saying if you don't take responsibility for yourself by buying health insurance, we will penalize you financially. How is it any different than the penalties imposed by not doing the responsible thing and filing your taxes?

I think their beef is that the tax penalties are not nearly large enough to encourage people to take out health insurance instead.

#191 Regatta Dog

Regatta Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,981 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:01 PM

I'm having a hard time understanding why the same people who advocate individual responsibility and that people need to take responsibility for themselves by having health insurance have such a hard time with the government saying if you don't take responsibility for yourself by buying health insurance, we will penalize you financially. How is it any different than the penalties imposed by not doing the responsible thing and filing your taxes?


I'm having a hard time understanding why the government doesn't impose an obesity tax on fat people who don't take personal responsibility for their weight and burden our health care system with diabetes, heart disease, etc.

Our deficit would disappear in a heartbeat if we would only create legislation that would allow the IRS to tax us for anything and everything the Gov't. felt was irresponsible behavior.

I'm not a major opponent or proponent of health care reform. My concern is the intrusion on my constitutional freedoms by my Gov't.

#192 NautiGirl

NautiGirl

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,917 posts
  • Location:New Scotland

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:02 PM


I'm having a hard time understanding why the same people who advocate individual responsibility and that people need to take responsibility for themselves by having health insurance have such a hard time with the government saying if you don't take responsibility for yourself by buying health insurance, we will penalize you financially. How is it any different than the penalties imposed by not doing the responsible thing and filing your taxes?

I think their beef is that the tax penalties are not nearly large enough to encourage people to take out health insurance instead.


Then why would they say they are being "taxed to the moon"?

#193 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:16 PM



I'm having a hard time understanding why the same people who advocate individual responsibility and that people need to take responsibility for themselves by having health insurance have such a hard time with the government saying if you don't take responsibility for yourself by buying health insurance, we will penalize you financially. How is it any different than the penalties imposed by not doing the responsible thing and filing your taxes?

I think their beef is that the tax penalties are not nearly large enough to encourage people to take out health insurance instead.


Then why would they say they are being "taxed to the moon"?

Because they are illiterate morons who, lacking the ability to read the decision for themselves, devour the bull malarkey they hear on the radio, and get all rabid about a health care law that their own party presented as an alternative to HillaryCare in 1993.

#194 Saorsa

Saorsa

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,270 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:25 PM

Oh well, maybe they'll enforce it as well as they do the immigration laws.

#195 MoeAlfa

MoeAlfa

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,314 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:37 PM

The markets said, basically, "meh".

I'm moving to Brazil (or is it Venus?), where docs get cash on the barrelhead and golf on Wednesdays. You're on your own, suckas!

#196 Remodel

Remodel

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,851 posts
  • Location:None
  • Interests:Sailboat racing and long distance cruising

Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:10 PM


I'm having a hard time understanding why the same people who advocate individual responsibility and that people need to take responsibility for themselves by having health insurance have such a hard time with the government saying if you don't take responsibility for yourself by buying health insurance, we will penalize you financially. How is it any different than the penalties imposed by not doing the responsible thing and filing your taxes?


I'm having a hard time understanding why the government doesn't impose an obesity tax on fat people who don't take personal responsibility for their weight and burden our health care system with diabetes, heart disease, etc.

Our deficit would disappear in a heartbeat if we would only create legislation that would allow the IRS to tax us for anything and everything the Gov't. felt was irresponsible behavior.

I'm not a major opponent or proponent of health care reform. My concern is the intrusion on my constitutional freedoms by my Gov't.


We should all share that concern. Why is it that that dems are evil when they want to tell us what to do with our money and reps are saints when they tell us who we can marry and what we can do with our bodies?

Aren't both equally totalitarian?

#197 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 43,874 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:22 PM

Personal responsibility is good....


sometimes.

#198 tq2000

tq2000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,150 posts
  • Location:East Stroudsburg, PA
  • Interests:boats and bourbon

Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:34 PM


seems someone kicked a hornets nest.


We have one of those. Just ID'd the critters.

http://en.wikipedia....ld-faced_hornet

High enough in a tree that it's not really a problem. Have an apple tree and they seem to like it. They tell us that these critters like to eat other bugs so we are going to leave them be for now.

If something hits the hive they swarm out and all fly in a clockwise circle around the tree about 20 feet in diameter. In about 5 minutes they are all back inside.


We had a nest of them that decided to build a whole community on the trailer last summer. They had to be evicted though, I needed to move the boat. Midnight with commercial grade hornet spray, no flashlights, no outside lights at all, spray nest liberally. If they see light, some will come back out and you will miss them. Just in case you decide to remove them.

#199 Regatta Dog

Regatta Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,981 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:36 PM



I'm having a hard time understanding why the same people who advocate individual responsibility and that people need to take responsibility for themselves by having health insurance have such a hard time with the government saying if you don't take responsibility for yourself by buying health insurance, we will penalize you financially. How is it any different than the penalties imposed by not doing the responsible thing and filing your taxes?


I'm having a hard time understanding why the government doesn't impose an obesity tax on fat people who don't take personal responsibility for their weight and burden our health care system with diabetes, heart disease, etc.

Our deficit would disappear in a heartbeat if we would only create legislation that would allow the IRS to tax us for anything and everything the Gov't. felt was irresponsible behavior.

I'm not a major opponent or proponent of health care reform. My concern is the intrusion on my constitutional freedoms by my Gov't.


We should all share that concern. Why is it that that dems are evil when they want to tell us what to do with our money and reps are saints when they tell us who we can marry and what we can do with our bodies?

Aren't both equally totalitarian?


I'm not suggesting dems are evil. I'm sure most of them mean well, but I'm consistent in my support of the concept that we are a nation of laws, not men.

I don't have a problem with a woman's right to choose, as long as men have the ability to obtain the same benefits by signing a document (before aborting a fetus is illegal) that frees them from any financial responsibility for the baby they fathered. A woman can choose to have a baby against the will of the sperm donor, but he should be able to opt out. Equal protection under the law.

I was also in favor of gay marriage way before Obama.

#200 d'ranger

d'ranger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,020 posts

Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:42 PM

I don't have a problem with a woman's right to choose, as long as men have the ability to obtain the same benefits by signing a document (before aborting a fetus is illegal) that frees them from any financial responsibility for the baby they fathered. A woman can choose to have a baby against the will of the sperm donor, but he should be able to opt out. Equal protection under the law.

Baby Daddys Of America is looking for a spokesman. You da Man.

Sorry to dig on you this early but that is exactly the attitude that turns me off from so many conservatives/libertarians: no responsibility.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users