22 replies to this topic

[MSA]

So for both the AC and Volvo Grant D has stated cost reduction is what he supports.. Is this a vocal minority??

He supports an OD VOR, something the race is not designed around (Not Volvos support, I mean the real race format). He supports the current OD AC world series, something the Americas is not (Stop pretending.. it isn't actually the AC)

Is this TNZ running out of funds for the big boys game? or a game changer all round?

Times are tougher than in the past, but is this not the time when the rich shine through?. Is that a bad thing?? Is cost reduction holding development back and narrowing the filter down effect?

[Evo]

what "real race" format is that and what isn't the AC?

is his fact or opinion?

[couchsurfer]

Times are tougher than in the past, but is this not the time when the rich shine through?. Is that a bad thing?? Is cost reduction holding development back and narrowing the filter down effect?

..We ain't seen -nothin- yet

IIRC,the rich get richer by buying up assets from companies going bust in hard times,dimes on $
...hardly the case for the AC and Vulvo

[MSA]

In historical terms, both the AC and VOR have been technological master pieces for the smaller yachting community. Something the filter down effect actually proves.

Both have been constructed under a rule/rules that allow development and innovation. VOR under rating or over the line and AC "design the baddest mofo you can for x rule".

Sticking to fact here.

How does 18 months of OD "World series" sailing and a limited Farr R&D really progress the sport as a whole?

[MSA]

Times are tougher than in the past, but is this not the time when the rich shine through?. Is that a bad thing?? Is cost reduction holding development back and narrowing the filter down effect?

..We ain't seen -nothin- yet

IIRC,the rich get richer by buying up assets from companies going bust in hard times,dimes on $
...hardly the case for the AC and Vulvo

I am more directing the comment to; When the lower budget teams bow out, then the ultra rich play and get into a different league of development. Imagine if LE, EB, Mr Luna Rosa and Artemis didn't have the budget poor teams trying to dictate terms.. Like wise with Volvo now changing the rules for the next race. Its an if.. As obviously it isn't a reality now.. But what are the alternatives. I believe it deserves a real discussion.

Have you read Pierre's part 1 interview with Juan K on vsail?

[Evo]

lemmee get this straight.....your opinion is the current/future state of play is not good for sailing?

it's my opinion that OD has always been good for the sport.....best man wins in most cases and it's not often a cheque book venture.....but that's my opinion. different from what yours appears to be from this chair and therefore not a fact. just sayin

Am currently in the Bay area and we've had a few brief looks at the venue and vantage points making me wonder if this isn't the best thing ever for the AC. It really is spectacular.

If the Farr boats are piggies they will all be piggies and they can change to JK in the next edition....as there will likely be a next edition (in my opinion) as a result of close racing without pitstops.

IMHO both the AC and Volvo are moving forward but resistance to change is a funny thing....just an opinion btw but i'd hazard a guess there will be plenty of trickle down especially in rigging and sails.

[MSA]

Im not arguing it will be the best "competition". That can not be determined until it happens.. In fact, im not arguing either way, just asking the question.

I am asking how the current top end OD, cost cutting push helps the end user long term... Point some facts this way. The TP 52 class obviously has issues with the Volvo OD move and they are now the premier mainstream Box rule. (Open 60 not very Mainstream)

And negative on them changing from the Farr design straight away.. Its a few rounds for those "piggies".. 10 years minimum with the $$$$ Volvo are "investing".

[Evo]

pretty hard to point to facts on something that hasn't happened yet. it's just speculation and opinion.

They will move on faster than 10 years if they are piggies at a guess....but again...opinion and speculation.

Only thing i'm sure of is it will be fun to watch....maybe even groundbreaking fun.

I understand what you are trying to do here MSA....just playing DA. Have also been out McLubing the bird feeder stands this morning just to watch the look on the squirrels faces as they fail to get all the way up and slide back to earth. Good fun

[MSA]

Ha ha Evo.. Actually.. I do want some people to put their informed opinions forwards.. Im sick of the usual BS and a coherent discussion is needed. I too agree they are/will be fun to watch.

But, Will this $$ value effect then end user.. IE.. Would 3Di be here without Alinghi (not arguing if its good or bad). Would we have Squarehead mainsails as efficient as they are without AC and Volvo R&D. would we know as much as we do about aero and Fluid dynamics..

[KiwiJoker]

So for both the AC and Volvo Grant D has stated cost reduction is what he supports.. Is this a vocal minority??

He supports an OD VOR, something the race is not designed around (Not Volvos support, I mean the real race format). He supports the current OD AC world series, something the Americas is not (Stop pretending.. it isn't actually the AC)

Is this TNZ running out of funds for the big boys game? or a game changer all round?

Times are tougher than in the past, but is this not the time when the rich shine through?. Is that a bad thing?? Is cost reduction holding development back and narrowing the filter down effect?

If you want a "coherent discussion" you found an odd way to frame it.

Some of your concerns have may merit but why load them on Grant Dalton's shoulders?

For most of us, Dalts included, there is no pretending about AC World Series. It is not the AC. It's a close but separate series to get everyone up to speed - teams, sponsors, public, media, etc.

Let me remind you that ETNZ hasn't run out of funds for the big boys game since 1987 when Australia lost the America's Cup.

Wouldn't it be better if you put recent Ozzer America's Cup and Volvo teams under the magnifying glass!

[MSA]

No need to get all defensive and start slinging shit KJ. Recent Oz endeavors are not even part of this discussion.. They aren't playing the game currently.

Nice reference to "The boys boys game", which brings me to the next point,

In the AC they are the only team without a Billionaire showing his toys and GD is their very vocal Media head.. TNZ agree on the cost saving things, like the Volvo OD.

[Scarecrow]

As a manager I suspect Dalton views one design as a risk management strategy. There is no risk of the other guy having a faster boat. Something that Dalton has run into more than once over the years.

[Moonduster]

TNZ does look at the AC World Series different than any other team. The other big money teams don't need sponsors; they really don't care about the ACWS. The low-budget teams hate the ACWS because they don't have big ticket sponsors and they don't have the money to waste sailing in regattas that have nothing to do with the AC. Only TNZ has deep pockets and big brand sponsors that want what the ACWS is designed to do - splash logos in front of spectators in places that sponsors love to have their egos stroked.

Grant loves the ACWS because his sponsors like it. But he'll be the first to say that it's a total distraction from every other aspect of competing for the AC - every aspect except generating cash.

[narecet]

Im not arguing it will be the best "competition". That can not be determined until it happens.. In fact, im not arguing either way, just asking the question.

I am asking how the current top end OD, cost cutting push helps the end user long term...

Why would they have much if any incentive or motivation towards gearing their efforts, at cost to them, to helping "the end user" ?

Aren't they doing these things to suit their own purposes and satisfy their own desires?

[MSA]

So one minded, as usual.... I wasn't asking to speculate why TNZ makes their decisions.. But an open discussion to how no R&D in the Volvo, and other "cost cutting measures" will effect you, the sailor.. Presuming you actually sail and aren't just a computer geek.

[eric e]

a cycle of 1 design

seems a good idea when there's a sea of red ink

when there's a sea of cash

go to the next development cycle

[dogwatch]

(GD) supports the current OD AC world series

No. Read the Protocol. Participation is a condition of entry to the LVC. IIRC GD has said - pretty much explicitly - that he considers the ACWS a waste of time.

[dogwatch]

But an open discussion to how no R&D in the Volvo, and other "cost cutting measures" will effect you, the sailor..

Why is it even worth discussing? It isn't Volvo's job to subsidise, in some general way, sailing R&D.

[MSA]

Obviously Juan K thinks its worth discussing. As would a whole bunch of business that made their living from designing, building, rigging etc race boats.

The development for lower end users will now either slow down or get more expensive.

[thetruth]

I talked at length with a few people and there are a number of questions.


!. $4.5 milliom Euro? Very expensive, is Volvo trying to recover cost?

2. Green Marine?

3. Bruce Farr?

4. So if a fully funded team buys boats 1 and 2 how would you know what you are getting with 3 and 4? (or any for that matter)

5. And if not many take up on the deal will Volvo start discounting their investment to get boats on the line? (Pay a mill for number 6?)

6. Is the course identified?

[thetruth]

He still did it though. Why do you Aussies even consider what Dalts does? He has never won the cup..................Simmer has





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(GD) supports the current OD AC world series

No. Read the Protocol. Participation is a condition of entry to the LVC. IIRC GD has said - pretty much explicitly - that he considers the ACWS a waste of time.

[dogwatch]

Obviously Juan K thinks its worth discussing.

Yes he seems to have a well-developed sense of entitlement.

I'd ask again - why is down to Volvo or VOR team sponsors to fund general yachting R&D? If it isn't, then clearly that won't be a factor in the decision making.

[MSA]

DW, Where did I ask if it is their god given role to fund general everyday yachting? I am merely pointing out it will now suffer. I personally have learnt much of what I know from people who have been or are involved in this field, where a bottom line figure was not really the issue, finding enough man hours was the issue..

Now we will be at the point of too many man hours and not enough funding.. Ok so maybe not enough man hours still, but the guys who find the next "groudbreaking thing" will be doing less and less work..