1032 replies to this topic

[Enzedel 92]

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(b When the first yacht reaches the zone,
(i) if yachts are overlapped or bowsprit overlapped, the outside yacht at that moment shall thereafter give the inside yacht mark-room.
(ii) if yachts are not overlapped and not bowsprit overlapped, the yacht that has not reached the zone shall thereafter give mark-room.
(c If the yacht entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, the entitlement to mark-room ceases and 18.2 (b is applied again if required.

Mark-Room: Room for a yacht to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark.
Zone: The area around marks and obstructions within a distance of three hull lengths. A yacht is in the zone when any part of her hulls are in the zone.

The way I read this, mark-room and the right to sail 'proper course' persists until the inside yacht leaves the zone.
Spithill luffed (above Koreas 'proper course') long before they left the three boatlength zone:
http://noticeboard.a...n-KOR.iPad_.mp4

What am I missing?

You are not missing anything. Thats what I have been saying all along. JS did not give the proper room at the mark rounding. Your video clearly shows this.

After they left the zone JS luffed and TK reacted appropriately. I saw no foul there.

So SW, watch the video. It doesnt lie. You are wearing the OR blinders as well it looks like.

[dalenz]

Thanks Dixie

[DaveK]

Thanks Dixie

+2 great write up!

[nav]

Another SF Fly-by...

"Watch my backstay Dude!"

crappy quality I know

[Mariner]

anyone down on the Cityfront who can tell us if they are packing EVERYTHING up or leaving it for the Oct event? Marina Green, Piers 30/ 32 bases? Guess I'll look over on the SF Oct thread for any info.

[SW Sailor]

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(b When the first yacht reaches the zone,
(i) if yachts are overlapped or bowsprit overlapped, the outside yacht at that moment shall thereafter give the inside yacht mark-room.
(ii) if yachts are not overlapped and not bowsprit overlapped, the yacht that has not reached the zone shall thereafter give mark-room.
(c If the yacht entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, the entitlement to mark-room ceases and 18.2 (b is applied again if required.

Mark-Room: Room for a yacht to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark.
Zone: The area around marks and obstructions within a distance of three hull lengths. A yacht is in the zone when any part of her hulls are in the zone.

The way I read this, mark-room and the right to sail 'proper course' persists until the inside yacht leaves the zone.
Spithill luffed (above Koreas 'proper course') long before they left the three boatlength zone:
http://noticeboard.a...n-KOR.iPad_.mp4

What am I missing?

The timing of the foul, which both video's clearly confirm.

Look at the video of the actual race, and note 1:17:31, TK rounding, to 1:17:38, foul, to 1:17:43.

First, JS gave them mark room, second, they were way past the circle at the time of the foul.

Then look at the animation. The foul occurs well after the 3 boat length mark, at approximately 12 seconds.

[SL33_SF]

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(b When the first yacht reaches the zone,
(i) if yachts are overlapped or bowsprit overlapped, the outside yacht at that moment shall thereafter give the inside yacht mark-room.
(ii) if yachts are not overlapped and not bowsprit overlapped, the yacht that has not reached the zone shall thereafter give mark-room.
(c If the yacht entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, the entitlement to mark-room ceases and 18.2 (b is applied again if required.

Mark-Room: Room for a yacht to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark.
Zone: The area around marks and obstructions within a distance of three hull lengths. A yacht is in the zone when any part of her hulls are in the zone.

The way I read this, mark-room and the right to sail 'proper course' persists until the inside yacht leaves the zone.
Spithill luffed (above Koreas 'proper course') long before they left the three boatlength zone:
http://noticeboard.a...n-KOR.iPad_.mp4

What am I missing?

The timing of the foul, which both video's clearly confirm.

Look at the attached video of the actual race, and note 1:17:31, TK rounding, to 1:17:38, foul, to 1:17:43.

First, JS gave them mark room, second, they were way past the circle at the time of the foul.

http://forums.sailin...c=136686&st=900

Then look at the animation. The foul occurs well after the 3 boat length mark, at approximately 12 seconds.

How about the situation at 1:17:36 / 0:08 well within the zone and JS far above any 'proper course'?
 Capture.PNG   100.29K   5 downloads
Also interesting that the 'sub inch accurate' RTK GPS shows the hulls fully overlapping where there was a feet or two in between....

[rule69]

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(b When the first yacht reaches the zone,
(i) if yachts are overlapped or bowsprit overlapped, the outside yacht at that moment shall thereafter give the inside yacht mark-room.
(ii) if yachts are not overlapped and not bowsprit overlapped, the yacht that has not reached the zone shall thereafter give mark-room.
(c If the yacht entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, the entitlement to mark-room ceases and 18.2 (b is applied again if required.

Mark-Room: Room for a yacht to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark.
Zone: The area around marks and obstructions within a distance of three hull lengths. A yacht is in the zone when any part of her hulls are in the zone.

The way I read this, mark-room and the right to sail 'proper course' persists until the inside yacht leaves the zone.
Spithill luffed (above Koreas 'proper course') long before they left the three boatlength zone:
http://noticeboard.a...n-KOR.iPad_.mp4

What am I missing?

The way I read that is: once the first yacht has been given room to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark the rule is satisfied (ie. when she has passed the mark). The right granted the first yacht while in the zone is proper course to round or pass the mark. How would "proper course to round" the mark that has already been rounded be defined?

[SW Sailor]

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(b When the first yacht reaches the zone,
(i) if yachts are overlapped or bowsprit overlapped, the outside yacht at that moment shall thereafter give the inside yacht mark-room.
(ii) if yachts are not overlapped and not bowsprit overlapped, the yacht that has not reached the zone shall thereafter give mark-room.
(c If the yacht entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, the entitlement to mark-room ceases and 18.2 (b is applied again if required.

Mark-Room: Room for a yacht to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark.
Zone: The area around marks and obstructions within a distance of three hull lengths. A yacht is in the zone when any part of her hulls are in the zone.

The way I read this, mark-room and the right to sail 'proper course' persists until the inside yacht leaves the zone.
Spithill luffed (above Koreas 'proper course') long before they left the three boatlength zone:
http://noticeboard.a...n-KOR.iPad_.mp4

What am I missing?

The timing of the foul, which both video's clearly confirm.

Look at the attached video of the actual race, and note 1:17:31, TK rounding, to 1:17:38, foul, to 1:17:43.

First, JS gave them mark room, second, they were way past the circle at the time of the foul.

http://forums.sailin...c=136686&st=900

Then look at the animation. The foul occurs well after the 3 boat length mark, at approximately 12 seconds.

How about the situation at 1:17:36 / 0:08 well within the zone and JS far above any 'proper course'?
 Capture.PNG   100.29K   5 downloads
Also interesting that the 'sub inch accurate' RTK GPS shows the hulls fully overlapping where there was a feet or two in between....

Looked like NO was playing it high and JS was following him up. Nothing illegal about that either.

But maybe their wasn't really a foul, the umpires just made it up so JS could win, and NO decided to admit to something he didn't do.

Sure thing, happens all the time.

[The Gardener]

If the proper course is to defend your lane I would do that.
The inside boat becomes the give way boat after her stearn clears the mark. not in three lengths.

[SL33_SF]

The inside boat becomes the give way boat after her stearn clears the mark. not in three lengths.

Then why would the rules say: "If the yacht entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, the entitlement to mark-room ceases"

[rule69]

The inside boat becomes the give way boat after her stearn clears the mark. not in three lengths.

Then why would the rules say: "If the yacht entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, the entitlement to mark-room ceases"

I imagine it's there to deal with the possiblity of the yacht exiting the zone before passing the mark.

But I don't see that it matters in this case.

The right granted is mark room and it is only defined as the right to proper course when going to and passing a mark, not when going from it.

[SW Sailor]

The inside boat becomes the give way boat after her stearn clears the mark. not in three lengths.

Then why would the rules say: "If the yacht entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, the entitlement to mark-room ceases"

Because the courses have gates - it's possible to enter and exit the right hand circle en route to the left gate, and vice versa.

Entering the right hand circle wouldn't give you rights at the left hand gate.

[krispy kreme]

anyone down on the Cityfront who can tell us if they are packing EVERYTHING up or leaving it for the Oct event? Marina Green, Piers 30/ 32 bases? Guess I'll look over on the SF Oct thread for any info.

The installation between StFYC and GGYC stays. Not sure if the tents on the area of Marina Green facing Marina Way will stay.

[SF Woody Sailor]

anyone down on the Cityfront who can tell us if they are packing EVERYTHING up or leaving it for the Oct event? Marina Green, Piers 30/ 32 bases? Guess I'll look over on the SF Oct thread for any info.

The installation between StFYC and GGYC stays. Not sure if the tents on the area of Marina Green facing Marina Way will stay.

They were being dismantled this morning when I was driving to work. The rest of the village is already gone.

[Asymptote]

Just dropped some sails off at my storage locker from this weekend. The very blue collar family that runs the place - who have never sailed - stopped me on the way out and said they had watched the "America's Cup" on television and that it was "exciting", "really fun to watch", "really close", "those guys must be really strong" and "the crew were like a ballet".

So, something good seems to be getting across to non-sailors, even though they might know exactly what they are watching.

[Goonda]

Just dropped some sails off at my storage locker from this weekend. The very blue collar family that runs the place - who have never sailed - stopped me on the way out and said they had watched the "America's Cup" on television and that it was "exciting", "really fun to watch", "really close", "those guys must be really strong" and "the crew were like a ballet".

So, something good seems to be getting across to non-sailors, even though they might know exactly what they are watching.

I was there Thursday-Sunday. Watched Thursday match races from the wave organ, and fleet races from bleachers between the two YCs (free ticket). Friday all day from the organ. Saturday and Sunday all day from the waterfront at Marina Green.

Everywhere except when I was in the bleachers, there were people around asking questions. These people clearly didn't know anything about racing, and a number of them probably didn't know anything about sailing at all. I'm pretty sure that a bunch of them were just wandering around, chanced onto something that looked like an event of some kind, and decided to stick around to see what all the fuss was about. Everyone that I had a chance to talk to had had a great time and seemed interested to see more in the future. Those quotes of yours were pretty typical of their reactions, I think. And I like to think I helped by adding a little commentary here and there about tactics and such. Hopefully I didn't annoy anyone. I had a few people thank me at the end of each day (one nice couple even bought me and a friend coffee) so I think I did alright.

[Dixie]

Photo albums from the week.
Saturday: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink
Friday: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink
Thursday: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink

[Koukel]

I was there Thursday-Sunday. Watched Thursday match races from the wave organ, and fleet races from bleachers between the two YCs (free ticket). Friday all day from the organ. Saturday and Sunday all day from the waterfront at Marina Green.
Everywhere except when I was in the bleachers, there were people around asking questions. These people clearly didn't know anything about racing, and a number of them probably didn't know anything about sailing at all.

Not cool man. I clearly knew that when Coutts plowed into the committee boat, his navigator made a mistake.
Koukel

[Mexican]

What rule allow for JS to luff? Post it.

I guess I'm missing the rules difficulty here.

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When yachts are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward yacht shall keep clear of
a leeward yacht.
http://www.cupinfo.c...-1p0-030111.pdf

No?

Is there something amending rule 17 for the ACWS? Or is rule 17 amended for match racing?

17. ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above
her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped
within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

The text in blue (my emphasis) describes the situation as I see it. The over lap occurred after both gybed. Jimmy gained an overlap from clear astern and within two hull lengths to leeward of Nathan.

How does Jimmy's luff constitute proper course where it's a straight line to the finish?

Mex

17 was removed - rule 11 applies in this case;


11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When yachts are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward yacht shall keep clear of a
leeward yacht.


Keep Clear One yacht keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take
avoiding action and, when the yachts are overlapped on the same tack, if the leeward yacht can
change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward yacht.

http://noticeboard.a...tion-v-1.12.pdf

It's nonsense to think the umpires would advantage one team over another given the technology and number of umpires on and off the water. Those so inclined to cheat lost in AC33.

Thanks for confirming this.

Whilst thinking about rules questions, based on the AC version of the RRS, would a competitor be able to wipe off a penalty (ie. slow down until their penalty is absolved) whilsted hooking another competitor?

I was watching Jimmy trying to wipe his penalty in the match race final against Russell and thought if he could hook Russ on the reach to the finish, take him head to wind-ish and thus slow sufficiently to wipe the penalty at the same time and then bear off for the line he would have won quite easily.

Any professed rules experts out there on the AC RRS think this is do-able?

SimonN, you seem to be suitably disgusted at the great unwashed who don't share the same level of intellect and knowledge of the rules. What do you think?

Mex

[Koukel]

My recap so far...

...an ACEA finance guy talked ACTV...

I totally missed this. Must have been staring into my drink, wishing I knew how to spell. Very fun evening though.

Thank you. Please tell Alan not to be so mean.

Koukel

[~Stingray~]

First Q to GJ was "Why is this important?"
Intelligent answer

On Commercials purchased:
Napa Valley
Louis Vuitton
Chase

NBC next football commercial
Movie, 'What If..'
McDonals
Jewlery Exchange
Sleep Country
Mcdonalds

Nice VE into SF
Current graphic
Wind graphic

MR
Starts at 2:07 to entry
GJ speaking well

17 knots, explains the chop reasons

GJ calls JS correctly, risky position

Coutts kills, at speed, JS barely made the CB

Coutts at 25 knots

Love the way the wind whistles

First gybing turn

Just 4m apart

JS w the faster turn

(awesome over head graphics w laylines)

JS takes right gate (looking up)

Coutts left

Good scene setup by GJ's co-host

Boundary lights explanation by GJ

Coutts done well by going inshore

Spitill has right of way on the cross

RC got better wind inshore, trumped the current outside

Close ups on ORC

Overhaefs

SF city backdrop

Overheads

148m

Is JS on the Layline

Daggerboards action

Deploy on RC, from water angle, big acceleration

Here we go, Gybing, live on ORS

Everyone working hard

Spray effing everywhere

RC gybes

Okay, gonna just watch now

[~Stingray~]

Incredible finish!!

ReWind

[SimonN]

SimonN, you seem to be suitably disgusted at the great unwashed who don't share the same level of intellect and knowledge of the rules.

It's not a level of knowledge I get worked up about. It's the fact that people can sound off about a subject without having done the research. The AC RRS are available to everybody to look at. Their existence isn't exactly a secret as they have been discussed on here enough. To me, engaging in a discussion about the rules coupled while quoting a set of rules that doesn't apply, coupled with some people accusing officials of bias which isn't there, seems to me to be pretty poor. Maybe I am too intolerent, but when you see the levels some on here go to to ensure they have things right, I personally find it annoying.

[MikeRocks]

was anyone else thinking this during the mark roundings??

[Hank Chinaski]

was anyone else thinking this during the mark roundings??

According to your graphic I spent three days sitting on the nipples. Very nice.

[~HHN92~]

was anyone else thinking this during the mark roundings??

Too symmetrical..........................


Missed advertising opportunity.

[tiller towards trouble]

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(b When the first yacht reaches the zone,
(i) if yachts are overlapped or bowsprit overlapped, the outside yacht at that moment shall thereafter give the inside yacht mark-room.
(ii) if yachts are not overlapped and not bowsprit overlapped, the yacht that has not reached the zone shall thereafter give mark-room.
(c If the yacht entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, the entitlement to mark-room ceases and 18.2 (b is applied again if required.

Mark-Room: Room for a yacht to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark.
Zone: The area around marks and obstructions within a distance of three hull lengths. A yacht is in the zone when any part of her hulls are in the zone.

The way I read this, mark-room and the right to sail 'proper course' persists until the inside yacht leaves the zone.
Spithill luffed (above Koreas 'proper course') long before they left the three boatlength zone:
http://noticeboard.a...n-KOR.iPad_.mp4

What am I missing?

The timing of the foul, which both video's clearly confirm.

Look at the attached video of the actual race, and note 1:17:31, TK rounding, to 1:17:38, foul, to 1:17:43.

First, JS gave them mark room, second, they were way past the circle at the time of the foul.

http://forums.sailin...c=136686&st=900

Then look at the animation. The foul occurs well after the 3 boat length mark, at approximately 12 seconds.

How about the situation at 1:17:36 / 0:08 well within the zone and JS far above any 'proper course'?
 Capture.PNG   100.29K   5 downloads
Also interesting that the 'sub inch accurate' RTK GPS shows the hulls fully overlapping where there was a feet or two in between....

OK you guys don't seem to know the rules. Here is what applies:

http://noticeboard.a...n-KOR.iPad_.mp4

Once TK's stern clears the mark, they have "passed the mark", so R18 turns off (at about 4s). JS acquires ROW as per R11 (leeward), and must initially give room to keep clear (R15), which he does. As he luffs up TK, JS must also give TK opportunity to keep clear (R16). The umpires must have decided that JS gave TK room to keep clear, and TK didn't keep clear, which is a simple R11 foul.

R17 is about proper course if you establish overlap from astern, so normally this would apply (did JS luff above his PC? I am not sure here, but arguably JS wanted to go to the windward end of the finish and this was still his PC), however as someone pointed out R17 is turned off for this race. So stop talking about proper course.

While watching live it looked like TK kept clear so I was surprised to see a foul called. I wish they had a better angle and would do a replay in slow motion of the incident. IMO this stuff is the most interesting and the coverage completely ignores it.

[~HHN92~]

Photo albums from the week.
Saturday: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink
Friday: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink
Thursday: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink

Great stuff.

What's up with all the helo shots?

[Dixie]

Photo albums from the week.
Saturday: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink
Friday: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink
Thursday: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink

Great stuff.

What's up with all the helo shots?

I don't know! I got sort of into them...So there they are. Quick Helo stats for the week:
Wed: 3 helos
Thursday Friday: 4 helos
Saturday: 5 and a bi-plane
Sunday: One of my friends who got hooked on my helo count saw 6 up during racing.

There's a blimp available for rent too, but I didn't see it out.

[Martin X Moleski SJ]

I wish they had a better angle and would do a replay in slow motion of the incident.

Agreed. The NFL will take time to provide a replay from every angle when a ref's call affects the outcome of a game. The talent will usually explain the rule, too, as needed.

IMO this stuff is the most interesting and the coverage completely ignores it.

When the outcome of the regatta depends on Jimmy pinning a penalty on Team Korea on the last leg of the race, it becomes downright fascinating to me. Neither the NBC coverage nor the YouTube team helped me understand the most important penalty of the week.

I hope I don't sound too whiny. I was thoroughly entertained by both shows. Watching them didn't cost me anything but time. Digging out an answer of sorts via Google didn't hurt me. I'd just like to put this idea in the suggestion box for the production team, in case anyone is listening: recognize the moments when a little tutorial would help the landlubbers in your audience.

[EVK4]

I hope I don't sound too whiny. I was thoroughly entertained by both shows. Watching them didn't cost me anything but time. Digging out an answer of sorts via Google didn't hurt me. I'd just like to put this idea in the suggestion box for the production team, in case anyone is listening: recognize the moments when a little tutorial would help the landlubbers in your audience.

Not just the landlubbers, the non-racing sailors. Or the racers who don't know the rules. Or anyone without an advanced degree in RRS.

Full disclaimer: I just love that Spithill is constantly launching his boat directly at other boats.

[pjh]

Paul Owens, owner of Reed & Greenough on Scott Street, said, “This event brought exactly the right kind of crowd to the Marina. I’m personally writing a letter to Larry Ellison to thank him for choosing to have the America’s Cup here in San Francisco, and look forward to the upcoming events. I am in full support of the America’s Cup!”

Marina buoyed by first America’s Cup event