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ACWS Reaching Start


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#1 Koukel

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:43 PM


Ok, your game. So what would make you feel good to see? I've read you talk about the fairest test. What makes the fairest test for you?

One that does as much as possible to remove the element of chance. Our sport has well established ways of doing that, such as windward starts, reasonably long races, a long series with discards, a location with a steady breeze and minimal tidal bias and so on. These elements are hardly just my opinion. They are entrenched in the ways we run Championship-level events in our sport.

Interesting all on it's own.

Always thought the goal of a match racing start was to impose your will on a competitor. You use your boat and the rules to humble, humiliate and literally leave the bad guy adrift in your wake.

I think the ACWS start is perfectly fair for match racing. Why would a reaching start be any less fair than an upwind start?

Koukel

#2 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:52 PM



#3 SW Sailor

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:37 PM

That is one of the better examples of traditional match race tactics in a start. I would like to have seen what would have happened if JS could have avoided the hook at about 12 seconds.

A reaching start probably eliminates the possibility of cats stuck in irons on the starting line after a dial up, which could turn into a mess in a fleet race. I doubt these guys actually figured this out when configuring the courses, they probably just stumbled across the idea by accident.

#4 bluesea

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 08:29 PM

Russel demonsterated the validity of the reaching start.

#5 seis

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 08:48 PM

I have no definite opinion, but I think the reaching start is better for catamarans.

But, of course, I do not see at all that there will be a big factor of "chance" in this type of starting.

#6 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:00 PM

I think that reaching start (and finish) leg should be longer. It is fast, exciting, technical with big difference of speed.

It is wrong to say that cats go at the same speed on a reach, Darren Bundock gave us the demonstration.

#7 bruno

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:59 PM

Not a fan, i think that tactically you are limited to 2 moves: driving over the top or pinching up underneath, or some slight variation. Without getting all manfredcurry I think tere are more moves for traditinal start. And for fleet racing it seems limited to getting one leader in front for the cameras.

#8 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:16 AM

I think that reaching start (and finish) leg should be longer.

+1 Good idea especially for the reach

#9 dogwatch

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 07:15 AM

I think the ACWS start is perfectly fair for match racing.


Most of remarks I've made about the reaching start have been in the context of the ACWS which is primarily a fleet-racing event. For fair fleet racing, a windward start is a must.

However you raise the question of match racing. I don't have as much of a problem with the reaching start for match racing - or certainly - I'm less able to articulate one. What I mean by that is that I'm yet to see a good analysis or play-book of the ACWS-type match racing pre-start. It's very short at two minutes. Half the time the YouTube coverage doesn't include even that. When it is shown, I often have difficulty following the action and quite clearly, so do the commentators. That's because none of us have that play-book in our heads to interpret what we are seeing.

A necessary consequence of the reaching start is the almost-immediate turning mark (otherwise the boats will rapidly reach over the horizon). Most of the time that consolidates the leaders gain and makes the remainder of the race processional. I accept that many match races are in any case processional after the start but the proportion in ACWS has been very high. Once in a while the post-start mark provides an attacking opportunity for a trailing boat that can gybe inside with greater speed and roll the leading boat but not too often.

So I think my main criticism of the reaching start in match racing is not the start per-se but the necessary turning mark a few seconds later that usually - not always - tends to make the race more processional.

#10 scott mb

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:20 AM

I'm just curious, Its been a few years since I've done match racing. If Coutts has created the overlap to leeward and clearly holds Spithill up for 5-6 seconds after the start signal shouldn't Coutts have to go to proper course once the start gun goes?

Is rule 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE the same for fleet and match racing?

Thanks Scott

#11 dogwatch

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:30 AM

^

They have their own rules, which are not the standard ISAF Match Racing (RRS appendix C) rules. There is no rule 17 in RRS AC. http://noticeboard.a...ocuments/rrsac/

#12 Presuming Ed

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:39 AM

Always thought the goal of a match racing start was to impose your will on a competitor. You use your boat and the rules to humble, humiliate and literally leave the bad guy adrift in your wake.


Generally, the aim of a match racing start is to gain control over your opponent. 4 possible outcomes - a) opposite tacks (someone is sending his opponent the wrong way), b) close to windward (unlikely windward will be able to hold her lane), c) well spaced (leeward can't tack = windward has control) d) crush (one boat leads the other over the line).

#13 scott mb

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:40 AM

Thanks for that Dogwatch that explains things.

Scott

#14 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:35 PM


I think that reaching start (and finish) leg should be longer.

+1 Good idea especially for the reach


I think they could even try a triangle, imagine all the fleet screaming at 35 knots and arriving at the mark...
Also, they don't have to be stuck with the present format of upwind-downwind,, they could have legs along and close to the shore.
We have to break racing assumptions, the Extreme were first to innovate, ACWS did follow, more can be done.

#15 Koukel

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:12 PM



I think that reaching start (and finish) leg should be longer.

+1 Good idea especially for the reach

I think they could even try a triangle, imagine all the fleet screaming at 35 knots and arriving at the mark...
Also, they don't have to be stuck with the present format of upwind-downwind,, they could have legs along and close to the shore.
We have to break racing assumptions, the Extreme were first to innovate, ACWS did follow, more can be done.

My wife might not agree, but I think longer would be better too. As for following the shore, there was quite a bit of that in Naples. I wasn't close enough to draw any conclusions though.

About a triangle, in San Diego they used a reaching mark and it sucked. The most diverse fleet of ACC boats ever assembled, with no one knowing which corner of the box would pay, sailed in long processions around a wing mark. Clearly different animal though. They were sure pretty back then. They had the reminiscent sleekness of twelves without being pregnant down below.

Maybe reaching would work better in the "less fair" test of San Francisco Bay with it's current, short legs and extra hull.

Koukel

#16 Te Kooti

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 03:29 PM

A reaching start probably eliminates the possibility of cats stuck in irons on the starting line after a dial up



Can someone who was there talk about what happened when DZ got stuck in irons? [in Valencia]

While most of the world grimaced, Ernesto must have chuckled [but not for long]

What could JS have done to avoid this embarrassing (and potentially catastrophic) start?

#17 PeterHuston

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 03:44 PM


I think the ACWS start is perfectly fair for match racing.


Most of remarks I've made about the reaching start have been in the context of the ACWS which is primarily a fleet-racing event. For fair fleet racing, a windward start is a must.

However you raise the question of match racing. I don't have as much of a problem with the reaching start for match racing - or certainly - I'm less able to articulate one. What I mean by that is that I'm yet to see a good analysis or play-book of the ACWS-type match racing pre-start. It's very short at two minutes. Half the time the YouTube coverage doesn't include even that. When it is shown, I often have difficulty following the action and quite clearly, so do the commentators. That's because none of us have that play-book in our heads to interpret what we are seeing.

A necessary consequence of the reaching start is the almost-immediate turning mark (otherwise the boats will rapidly reach over the horizon). Most of the time that consolidates the leaders gain and makes the remainder of the race processional. I accept that many match races are in any case processional after the start but the proportion in ACWS has been very high. Once in a while the post-start mark provides an attacking opportunity for a trailing boat that can gybe inside with greater speed and roll the leading boat but not too often.

So I think my main criticism of the reaching start in match racing is not the start per-se but the necessary turning mark a few seconds later that usually - not always - tends to make the race more processional.


Why is that for fair fleet racing an upwind start is necessary.

Would a downwind start be any less fair?

Why not a downwind start to leeward gates, be it for fleet or match racing?

I'd like to see a combination of starts, a variety of race courses, for all sailing.

By having just one type of course, all we are determining is the sort of sailor who can excel on that particular type of course.

#18 Presuming Ed

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 04:06 PM

Downside of downwind starts is that there is a smaller speed difference offwind than upwind between the front and back of the fleet. This is exacerbated by the back of the fleet covering the front. It makes it more likely for the whole fleet to arrive at the first mark at the same time, which tends to equal carnage. For AC45s, and especially for AC72s, I would think that the fact that offwind, the boat ahead can gas the boat behind would result in limited benefit of downwind starts. Would be interesting to see what happens if they gave it a go, though.

One wonders why they're persisting with reaching starts? It could be as a calculated move to increase the randomness associated with racing - sort of like Bernie Ecclestone's sprinker proposal for F1. I was reading a book the other day that postulated that one of the reasons football is so popular is the randomness: goals are so infrequent, that their value is huge. It means that a team can be outplayed, and still win, by being lucky (Chelsea's Champions' League....). This keeps people interested, as you're never sure of the result. Of course, a goal can happen at any time during a game. Making the important but random factor happen at the start tends to make it less important to watch the whole race.

#19 dogwatch

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 05:49 PM

By having just one type of course, all we are determining is the sort of sailor who can excel on that particular type of course.


I think you'd find that's precisely what the kind of sailors who participate in high-level racing want. I'm not simply guessing on this point. Once upon a time I helped run a class association and we asked our members that question, in order that we could provide guidance to race officers. Most wanted predictability, not variety.

#20 PeterHuston

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:34 PM


By having just one type of course, all we are determining is the sort of sailor who can excel on that particular type of course.


I think you'd find that's precisely what the kind of sailors who participate in high-level racing want. I'm not simply guessing on this point. Once upon a time I helped run a class association and we asked our members that question, in order that we could provide guidance to race officers. Most wanted predictability, not variety.



And with that predictability came the same set of predictable winners.

How many of those classes are growing? Any?

#21 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:59 PM

A reaching start probably eliminates the possibility of cats stuck in irons on the starting line after a dial up

And this is not for sure the reason why they chose a reaching start.

#22 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:05 PM

1)Downside of downwind starts is that there is a smaller speed difference offwind than upwind between the front and back of the fleet. This is exacerbated by the back of the fleet covering the front.

2)It makes it more likely for the whole fleet to arrive at the first mark at the same time, which tends to equal carnage.


1) not with present downwinds with lots of gybes, you could see by yourself the differences during during last races

2) this is what we see now with a short reach, it works and it's fun.

I would love to see a long reaching starts with all the fleet at maximum speed and 2 gates for interesting tactic choices.
It would also be a good idea to have (weather permits) a long reaching along the coast in order to help non sailors understand who is first, second etc.

#23 Koukel

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:32 PM

One wonders why they're persisting with reaching starts?

Because it works really well?

For match racing it works really well. For fleet racing I can see how arriving third and rounding seventh could be considered random and bad form. I also see how this would be especially bad in a big fleet with differing levels of talent.

None of these apply to AC match racing as far as I can tell.

Koukel

#24 dogwatch

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:40 PM

How many of those classes are growing? Any?


As compared to classes which decide their Championships by downwind starts? Name me a major class that does that.

The "sailing is dying" lament seems to be a USA one. It isn't particularly what we are seeing around here. Classes come, classes go, sailing continues. With upwind starts. http://www.yachtsand...m/classes/?s=44

#25 dogwatch

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:46 PM


One wonders why they're persisting with reaching starts?

Because it works really well?

For match racing it works really well.


And your evidence for that is what? If the ACWS match racing is so wonderful, why has it been curtailed? If it is so exciting, why is it barely televised? If the pre-starts are so fascinating, how come the coverage that is televised tends to fast-forward to the start?

#26 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:49 PM

John Craig and others, DB most recently, have talked about prestart, start, and reach mark strategy decisions; it's pretty interesting.

My ~guess~ is that over the 130 races so far, about half the the overtaking has happened on L2, when the leader either didn't cover a trailer's gybe, or else didn't execute the gybe as fast. Clean tacks and gybes are a big deal, you see it all the time. There was a very-simultaneous cover gybe in Sunday's FR where ORC was faster thru it and accelerated sooner than LRP, and they gained almost a boatlength coming out of it. Were it not for RC's out of bounds f*ckup on the following upwind leg, that great gybe would likely have been decisive between them.

#27 dogwatch

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:06 AM

Would a downwind start be any less fair?


I've some experience of large OD fleets doing downwind starts because we get that a fair amount at Cowes Week, which for the most part operates off fixed shore lines. It would be hard to find many sailors who relish them.

One issue, as Presuming Ed has pointed out, is that they tend to deliver a clusterfuck at the first mark.

It is perhaps fortunate that not many sailors have the plays for downwind starts engrained the way they do for upwind or Cowes Week would never get a such a race away. If you think about it, for upwind starts, there's a dynamic. Get there early and later starters will luff you over. Get there late and you cannot get clear air. But downwind you can get there early on starboard and luff to avoid OCS. Luffing puts you onto a fast point of sailing so that's OK. Late comers have no rights. Throw an international championship fleet downwind starts for a week to practice and I betcha by the end you'll never get a clean start away.

#28 Koukel

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:21 AM



One wonders why they're persisting with reaching starts?

Because it works really well?
For match racing it works really well.

And your evidence for that is what? If the ACWS match racing is so wonderful, why has it been curtailed? If it is so exciting, why is it barely televised? If the pre-starts are so fascinating, how come the coverage that is televised tends to fast-forward to the start?

Well you haven't given me a valid reason to think otherwise, for one. TV broadcast decisions don't carry much weight, I've had too many of my favorite shows cancelled just when they get good. Fleet racing logic doesn't hold for match racing, even at the highest level. And, during ACWS starts, I find myself leaning forward in anticipation for who hits the circle first. The advantage is measurable at the mark instead of the first crossing.

Unless you know of some specific reason why the 90 degree offset boat entry into the box or two minute prestart favors one competitor over the other, then I'll stick with my opinion (I like it), and the evidence (they continue to use it).

Pardon me for being so damn judgemental, but I suspect that you just prefer upwind starts because of a whole bunch of reasons why upwind starts are better in other kinds of racing. At the risk of being flippant, I prefer salmon raw or smoked. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy a good barbeque. B)

Koukel

#29 PeterHuston

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:27 AM


How many of those classes are growing? Any?


As compared to classes which decide their Championships by downwind starts? Name me a major class that does that.

The "sailing is dying" lament seems to be a USA one. It isn't particularly what we are seeing around here. Classes come, classes go, sailing continues. With upwind starts. http://www.yachtsand...m/classes/?s=44


Classic case of confirmation bias.

No one really uses downwind starts, particularly in a "major championship" therefore there is no evidence they are of any benefit, or detriment.

I'm glad for all the classes that use upwind starts. Pretty much Flintstones.

I'm looking for variety, and more fun.

The thing that AC34 is going to teach the world about sailing is that change is good.

If upwind. windward leewards as a steady diet work so well, then why aren't sponsors and tv flocking to it?


Oh yeah, and the hot young girls, where are they? Kites, probably.

#30 PeterHuston

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:34 AM


Would a downwind start be any less fair?


I've some experience of large OD fleets doing downwind starts because we get that a fair amount at Cowes Week, which for the most part operates off fixed shore lines. It would be hard to find many sailors who relish them.

One issue, as Presuming Ed has pointed out, is that they tend to deliver a clusterfuck at the first mark.

It is perhaps fortunate that not many sailors have the plays for downwind starts engrained the way they do for upwind or Cowes Week would never get a such a race away. If you think about it, for upwind starts, there's a dynamic. Get there early and later starters will luff you over. Get there late and you cannot get clear air. But downwind you can get there early on starboard and luff to avoid OCS. Luffing puts you onto a fast point of sailing so that's OK. Late comers have no rights. Throw an international championship fleet downwind starts for a week to practice and I betcha by the end you'll never get a clean start away.



I've sailed in more than a couple of races in downwind starts, both in one design, and big boats. Not true international calibre fleet, but I'm not sure Cowes Week is that either.

And what is the clusterfuck at the first mark exactly? Is that one mark, or a set of gates? Big difference.



We'll lets try it and see. Until then, we are all just pissing to windward.

#31 Sean

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:57 AM

Have they ever tried upwind starts with the 45's? I'd like to see it.

#32 SW Sailor

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:13 AM

Resistance to change is human nature, and their's almost nothing that hasn't been changed with AC34.

In business, when questioning why something is done the way it is, the worst answer you can hear is "well that's the way we've always done it". That itself is one of the best reasons to consider change.

Innovation and change is healthy in sailing as well. You have to look no further than a winged keel for a good example, the result of which is pretty clear.

Reaching starts with cats has merit, as does a short first leg as it puts big pressure on the lead boat to execute a clean rounding. The LVS should better illustrate the point, especially with the number of crew.

#33 dogwatch

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 05:41 AM

Oh yeah, and the hot young girls, where are they? Kites, probably.


I could name dinghy classes that are packed with gorgeous young women. However you can find out which for yourself.

Confirmation bias, no I don't think so. Most of us have done enough downwind starts, in club-level racing or big-boat racing, to know they are something of a lottery.

The thing that AC34 is going to teach the world about sailing is that change is good.


Change is neutral. Good change is good. Bad change is bad. AC34 is delivering elements of both.

If upwind. windward leewards as a steady diet work so well, then why aren't sponsors and tv flocking to it?.


They aren't exactly flocking to ACWS either. Your presumptions appear to be 1. that the AC should configure itself for TV appeal and 2. that round-the-buoys racing in any shape or form will ever make it as a mainstream spectator sport. I don't buy either assumption. I don't really care too much what ACWS does but the AC should be designed to provide the best and fairest test of sailing skill and boat speed. That's what it is about. That is what it is for. That is what GGYC as the defender is morally bound to deliver. Not sponsors and TV viewers.

#34 dogwatch

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 06:15 AM

Pardon me for being so damn judgemental, but I suspect that you just prefer upwind starts because of a whole bunch of reasons why upwind starts are better in other kinds of racing.


Firstly the title of this thread is "ACWS reaching start". ACWS is primarily fleet racing, with as much match racing as they can squeeze in. So reducing the scope of discussion to match racing only is a mismatch to the thread.

Secondly, upwind starts have been universally used for match racing prior to ACWS, not just fleet racing. You can say that's just tradition or you can argue, as I do, that it has become established as tradition precisely because it delivers the highest probability that the best sailors win. I'm not going to repeat further the arguments I've already made on that point.

Thirdly, TH's public characterisation of the reaching start as "random" does not indicate the happy band of contented sailors delighted with this particular change that you are suggesting.

I'm afraid your argument that you like watching the ACWS starts carries little weight for me because I don't think sailing is for watching. I think it's for doing. Watch if you want to but the tail should not wag the dog.

#35 Koukel

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:19 PM


Pardon me for being so damn judgemental, but I suspect that you just prefer upwind starts because of a whole bunch of reasons why upwind starts are better in other kinds of racing.


Firstly the title of this thread is "ACWS reaching start". ACWS is primarily fleet racing, with as much match racing as they can squeeze in. So reducing the scope of discussion to match racing only is a mismatch to the thread.


Secondly, upwind starts have been universally used for match racing prior to ACWS, not just fleet racing. You can say that's just tradition or you can argue, as I do, that it has become established as tradition precisely because it delivers the highest probability that the best sailors win. I'm not going to repeat further the arguments I've already made on that point.

Thirdly, TH's public characterisation of the reaching start as "random" does not indicate the happy band of contented sailors delighted with this particular change that you are suggesting.


First of all, I appreciate you engaging in the conversation instead of getting all English on me offended at my crass nature. I haven't done committee work, so my usual interaction with them has been either hearing applause at the finish or muttering comments about where they were born to come up with such a course.

Secondly, the ACWS is the precursor to the Americas Cup. This and the fact that I started this thread means I am 100% certain that writing about match racing fits into the author's intent.

Thirdly, you sort of talked me into the random part about the fleet reaching start, even if that was not your contention, so maybe we should start calling the fleet races motos instead of races.

I don't think sailing is for watching. I think it's for doing.


You probably feel the same way about sex.

Koukel


#36 SW Sailor

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:14 AM


Pardon me for being so damn judgemental, but I suspect that you just prefer upwind starts because of a whole bunch of reasons why upwind starts are better in other kinds of racing.


Firstly the title of this thread is "ACWS reaching start". ACWS is primarily fleet racing, with as much match racing as they can squeeze in. So reducing the scope of discussion to match racing only is a mismatch to the thread.

Secondly, upwind starts have been universally used for match racing prior to ACWS, not just fleet racing. You can say that's just tradition or you can argue, as I do, that it has become established as tradition precisely because it delivers the highest probability that the best sailors win. I'm not going to repeat further the arguments I've already made on that point.

Thirdly, TH's public characterisation of the reaching start as "random" does not indicate the happy band of contented sailors delighted with this particular change that you are suggesting.

I'm afraid your argument that you like watching the ACWS starts carries little weight for me because I don't think sailing is for watching. I think it's for doing. Watch if you want to but the tail should not wag the dog.


Planning on jumping into the ACWS in SF with Ben ?

Confirmation bias is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about reaching starts in the ACWS, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.

Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence).



#37 bruno

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:21 AM

judgmental, confirmation bias, if one disagrees? title of thread is ... random or fair? sounds like a question to me, i answered with opinion, if you aren't getting the answers you want maybe you shouldn't ask.

#38 Indio

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:23 AM



Pardon me for being so damn judgemental, but I suspect that you just prefer upwind starts because of a whole bunch of reasons why upwind starts are better in other kinds of racing.


Firstly the title of this thread is "ACWS reaching start". ACWS is primarily fleet racing, with as much match racing as they can squeeze in. So reducing the scope of discussion to match racing only is a mismatch to the thread.

Secondly, upwind starts have been universally used for match racing prior to ACWS, not just fleet racing. You can say that's just tradition or you can argue, as I do, that it has become established as tradition precisely because it delivers the highest probability that the best sailors win. I'm not going to repeat further the arguments I've already made on that point.

Thirdly, TH's public characterisation of the reaching start as "random" does not indicate the happy band of contented sailors delighted with this particular change that you are suggesting.

I'm afraid your argument that you like watching the ACWS starts carries little weight for me because I don't think sailing is for watching. I think it's for doing. Watch if you want to but the tail should not wag the dog.


Planning on jumping into the ACWS in SF with Ben ?

Confirmation bias is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about reaching starts in the ACWS, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.

Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence).



Did your wife google that for you?!? Posted Image

#39 SW Sailor

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:28 AM




Pardon me for being so damn judgemental, but I suspect that you just prefer upwind starts because of a whole bunch of reasons why upwind starts are better in other kinds of racing.


Firstly the title of this thread is "ACWS reaching start". ACWS is primarily fleet racing, with as much match racing as they can squeeze in. So reducing the scope of discussion to match racing only is a mismatch to the thread.

Secondly, upwind starts have been universally used for match racing prior to ACWS, not just fleet racing. You can say that's just tradition or you can argue, as I do, that it has become established as tradition precisely because it delivers the highest probability that the best sailors win. I'm not going to repeat further the arguments I've already made on that point.

Thirdly, TH's public characterisation of the reaching start as "random" does not indicate the happy band of contented sailors delighted with this particular change that you are suggesting.

I'm afraid your argument that you like watching the ACWS starts carries little weight for me because I don't think sailing is for watching. I think it's for doing. Watch if you want to but the tail should not wag the dog.


Planning on jumping into the ACWS in SF with Ben ?

Confirmation bias is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about reaching starts in the ACWS, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.

Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence).



Did your wife google that for you?!? Posted Image

Nope. My dog did from Wikiland Posted Image

#40 Koukel

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:23 PM

Not a fan, i think that tactically you are limited to 2 moves: driving over the top or pinching up underneath, or some slight variation. Without getting all manfredcurry I think tere are more moves for traditinal start. And for fleet racing it seems limited to getting one leader in front for the cameras.

So what other moves can you put into words for an upwind start?

There were quite a few boats circling in Newport, I believe. There were certainly boats sailing away and making timed runs.

My endless optimism or imagination tells me you can still do a dial up under the right conditions. With better technique or design for backing down, why couldn't you? Maybe this supports your point more than detracts from it.

Someone spoke about trying upwind starts. It would be cool if they tried that. Either way, I think the reaching start is fair and very exciting.

Koukel

#41 Monster Mash

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:21 PM

If you have a properly set line then you will see lots of splits and crosses on the first upwind leg. Potential for many lead changes, lots of yelling. :rolleyes: I think they should give it a try with the 45s.

#42 Koukel

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:14 PM

If you have a properly set line then you will see lots of splits and crosses on the first upwind leg. Potential for many lead changes, lots of yelling. :rolleyes: I think they should give it a try with the 45s.

I'm all up for trying upwind starts (I wish they would ask me). I think the reaching start would hold up. How about alternating starts in a longer series, starboard reach, upwind, port reach, rinse and repeat.

I also think the splits, crosses and lead changes you bring up all hold true for the course as it stands. I'll argue the few instances where boats hit an upwind line even are more than out shown by the current tight reach to the circle. It should just be a longer reach (I dare you to ask me ACWS people). Other than those really tight upwind starts, you'll lose the upwind tendency to put off the inevitable if you're behind and avoid a first crossing. No biggie.

Koukel

P.S. The tour is a week old now with everyone and their mother crashing off the road on flat, strait roads (just like in Portland). I wonder if their forums are ragging on how much like nascar that is?

#43 SW Sailor

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:55 PM

Koukel

P.S. The tour is a week old now with everyone and their mother crashing off the road on flat, strait roads (just like in Portland). I wonder if their forums are ragging on how much like nascar that is?


I'll bet we have the best bitchers of any forum, hands down.

For as many complaints that surface about ACWS, reaching starts, checkered flags and stadium racing, after watching two days of the ESS series the ACWS does a really good job of keeping one well informed and in the race.

#44 PeterHuston

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:02 PM


Oh yeah, and the hot young girls, where are they? Kites, probably.


I could name dinghy classes that are packed with gorgeous young women. However you can find out which for yourself.

Confirmation bias, no I don't think so. Most of us have done enough downwind starts, in club-level racing or big-boat racing, to know they are something of a lottery.

The thing that AC34 is going to teach the world about sailing is that change is good.


Change is neutral. Good change is good. Bad change is bad. AC34 is delivering elements of both.

If upwind. windward leewards as a steady diet work so well, then why aren't sponsors and tv flocking to it?.


They aren't exactly flocking to ACWS either. Your presumptions appear to be 1. that the AC should configure itself for TV appeal and 2. that round-the-buoys racing in any shape or form will ever make it as a mainstream spectator sport. I don't buy either assumption. I don't really care too much what ACWS does but the AC should be designed to provide the best and fairest test of sailing skill and boat speed. That's what it is about. That is what it is for. That is what GGYC as the defender is morally bound to deliver. Not sponsors and TV viewers.


What I think would be good for sailing, good for TV....AND good for the Cup.... the best way to determine the "fairest test of sailing skill and boat speed" is to have a wide variety of course configurations within a series, which when the scores are totaled up (with no drop race) gives you the winner. Upwind start, downwind start, reaching start, buoys to port, buoys to starboard, a circle course, long course, short course, a marathon course. Whatever, just give us some variety so that we see the broadest skill set, not the most narrow.

#45 SW Sailor

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:57 AM

Good luck making that work for TV, and a small number of posters will complain regardless of what they do.

I'd vote for a poll from the teams with a few options, but I also think credit needs to be given to the people organizing the races. It's not that they haven't given this any thought. JC is certainly one of the best around, and he's not afraid of change.

This whole event is about change, the boats, the rules, the courses, the data available, handling protests, the starts, the scoring, etc.

In the very brief period of time these guys have had to design and build the boats and put all this together, given the scope of change they've done a pretty good job.

Is it perfect ? No, but they've covered a fair bit of ground and have a lot more successes than failures, and most importantly, they do listen.

#46 dogwatch

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:01 AM

What I think would be good for sailing, good for TV....AND good for the Cup.... the best way to determine the "fairest test of sailing skill and boat speed" is to have a wide variety of course configurations within a series, which when the scores are totaled up (with no drop race) gives you the winner. Upwind start, downwind start, reaching start, buoys to port, buoys to starboard, a circle course, long course, short course, a marathon course. Whatever, just give us some variety so that we see the broadest skill set, not the most narrow.


You'll been unsurprised at this point that I am less that enthusiastic for reasons I don't intend to repeat. However I'd accept more of a logic to that than the present AC/ACWS course configuration.

Discards are irrelevant to match races. As far as ACWS fleet racing goes, it is already no-discard e.g. see Newport SIs. Given the umpiring system and the absence in effect of, for example, an OCS score, I've no problem with that.

3.1 Yachts shall be scored points as follows:
Position 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th
Races 1-4 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3
Race 5 30 20 15 12 10 8 6 4
3.2 Yachts that do not comply with RRSAC rule 28.1 or do not start within three minutes of the starting signal,
retire after finishing, or are disqualified, score 0 points. Each Yachtís points from all Fleet Races sailed shall
be totaled; the highest score shall be declared the ACWS Newport Fleet Racing Champion, the team with
the next highest score will be the runner up, etc.


#47 Steve Clark

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

I think the reaching start is fair.
I don't think it is a very good idea for match racing.
The primary objection is that there is only one tactical choice.
There is no escape or the loser, so it is too final.
Particularly in a really short race.
SHC

#48 maxmini

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:51 PM

I think the reaching start is fair.
I don't think it is a very good idea for match racing.
The primary objection is that there is only one tactical choice.
There is no escape or the loser, so it is too final.
Particularly in a really short race.
SHC


All good points . The reaching start, however, does provide the opertunitie for more commercials with less chance of missing any action on the course so I guess it's all a matter of the ACEA's priorities :D

#49 BalticBandit

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:42 PM


I think the reaching start is fair.
I don't think it is a very good idea for match racing.
The primary objection is that there is only one tactical choice.
There is no escape or the loser, so it is too final.
Particularly in a really short race.
SHC


All good points . The reaching start, however, does provide the opertunitie for more commercials with less chance of missing any action on the course so I guess it's all a matter of the ACEA's priorities :D

Seems to mee that if they had a "slalom" aftr the turning mark - IE bring the first turning mark closer in rather than being most of the way across the course, and then a second "turning mark" back towards the start line, IE a port bearoff at the first mark, then a gybe to Stb around the other mark, you give the boat behind a chance to attack even if they did not win the start.

#50 Amati

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:52 PM

In the context of 2 30 knot multi's, a reach start might be interesting IF there was no dial up to the start, just a starting time for 2 separate gates, One for each cat, then a short (say 200 yd) reach to the first mark. Before the start, a coin toss could be made, and the winning team would get to choose which gate they'd start from, and the losing team could pick whether the next leg would be upwind or downwind. Windward leeward course after that, maybe end the same way the thing started, but in your starting gate. Leeward gate mark. Seemed to work for the Volvo inshore races this time around.

To make it more interesting, the boats could do a standing start, set suitably, time wise, so there would be very little time to sail around before the starting gun. No interaction at all. Would have to stay in a proscribed box, so only speed and course at the gun would matter

Ideally, both cats would be going max speed at the gun. No fucking around. Well, then the fucking games could begin.

#51 maxmini

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:11 PM

What about a Le Mans start ? The crews could swim from shore in speedos ( build the female viewership perhaps get some Tide or Mr Clean sponsorship ) mount the boats , don their body armor and make for the first mark. If one boat gets too big of a lead the authorities could throw a debris flag and force the leading boat to slow until the " debris " is cleared thereby allowing the trailing boat to get back into the same TV frame as the leader. Allow some incidental contact as " rubbin is racing " and let the " boys have at it". Throw in a couple of " clothing malfunctionns and you are starting to really make this dream come true . If they are going to make this reality TV deal work they can't go at it half ass like they have so far.

#52 SW Sailor

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:13 PM

I think the reaching start is fair.
I don't think it is a very good idea for match racing.
The primary objection is that there is only one tactical choice.
There is no escape or the loser, so it is too final.
Particularly in a really short race.
SHC

Do you mean the decision to protect the right of left on an upwind start vs protecting the pin on a reaching start ?

In a reaching start course configuration the same decision (left/right) remains at the first mark for the winner of the start (same as windward starts) , and we've seen the lead change on the weather leg, so passing lanes do exist.

Not sure if the data is available for ACWS results, but in the 2007 event for the top 5 teams the boat that won the start also won the race ~ 80% of the time.

#53 SW Sailor

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:00 PM

Interesting comment from the ESS series commentator - they would love to do reaching starts.

#54 bruno

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:58 PM


I think the reaching start is fair.
I don't think it is a very good idea for match racing.
The primary objection is that there is only one tactical choice.
There is no escape or the loser, so it is too final.
Particularly in a really short race.
SHC

Do you mean the decision to protect the right of left on an upwind start vs protecting the pin on a reaching start ?

In a reaching start course configuration the same decision (left/right) remains at the first mark for the winner of the start (same as windward starts) , and we've seen the lead change on the weather leg, so passing lanes do exist.

Not sure if the data is available for ACWS results, but in the 2007 event for the top 5 teams the boat that won the start also won the race ~ 80% of the time.


And that statistic is valid when discussing cats because all boats go the same speeds?

#55 ~Stingray~

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:42 AM

Has the LAC looked at reaching starts yet?

#56 SW Sailor

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 01:25 AM



I think the reaching start is fair.
I don't think it is a very good idea for match racing.
The primary objection is that there is only one tactical choice.
There is no escape or the loser, so it is too final.
Particularly in a really short race.
SHC

Do you mean the decision to protect the right of left on an upwind start vs protecting the pin on a reaching start ?

In a reaching start course configuration the same decision (left/right) remains at the first mark for the winner of the start (same as windward starts) , and we've seen the lead change on the weather leg, so passing lanes do exist.

Not sure if the data is available for ACWS results, but in the 2007 event for the top 5 teams the boat that won the start also won the race ~ 80% of the time.


And that statistic is valid when discussing cats because all boats go the same speeds?


It has nothig to do with the speed differential of cats or monos. The argument was that the winner of a reaching start has an insurmountable lead. Seems the same holds true for monos, but maybe you can provide other data we can use as a reference for windward starts then.

#57 dogwatch

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:34 AM

What about a Le Mans start ? The crews could swim from shore in speedos ( build the female viewership perhaps get some Tide or Mr Clean sponsorship ) mount the boats , don their body armor and make for the first mark. If one boat gets too big of a lead the authorities could throw a debris flag and force the leading boat to slow until the " debris " is cleared thereby allowing the trailing boat to get back into the same TV frame as the leader. Allow some incidental contact as " rubbin is racing " and let the " boys have at it". Throw in a couple of " clothing malfunctionns and you are starting to really make this dream come true . If they are going to make this reality TV deal work they can't go at it half ass like they have so far.


There's also a lot of money wasted on umpires and juries. Here's my modest proposal. Can those time-wasters. Instead decide protests with jousts. Adapt the speed trial principal but have two boats approaching each other with jousting poles. First to knock the opponent helm off the boat wins. A bit of kevlar body armour and they will be fine. Well, mostly fine.

#58 Steve Clark

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 11:30 PM

Maybe he USFL model:
Instead of a kick off a sprint to the ball at the 50 yard line.
Whoever gets the ball starts the offense.
In this case there is a gate at mid course.
Two starting lines equally far away to port and starboard.
The start is like entering the box, full tilt to the gate.
Heaven help us.

With regard to the LAC, we haven't been very adventuresome with race format.
What we do differently than the America's Cup is that the defender isn't seeded to the finals.
This is like the world cup or any other real sport, the defending champion has to qualify like everyone else.
We do this with 3 days of fleet racing, which then turn set pairing for match race finals.
SHC

#59 ~Stingray~

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:24 AM

Yep, the real America's Cup is a completely different format. As it should be.

But to repeat the question: Since (winged cats, with huge design teams behind them) AC34 is going with the reaching starts, and Mark Turner listed a very long string of good reasons for it too, then: Has the LAC not yet even considered it? For a normally-forward-thinking operation, it would surprise me if they are falling behind in this area too, aside from (ahem) the obviously coming leap in wing design.

Who's at the old helm?

#60 bruno

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:47 AM

It is not that reaching starts confer an insurmountable advantage (fast skiffs and multis can come back much better than keelboats which have much smaller differentials) but that it is a less intellectual exercise than a square line for a beat or a run. That is why it may have been true that ACC race outcomes correlated 80% of the time with start winners but do not in the ACWS. Additionally the faster boats can remove tactical weapons like the slam dunk, if you noticed in the end of the Galway in port there was a cross at the top and the leeward boat blew right through the lee. Covering is harder when boats can speed up or slow down much quicker, escaping with leverage can mean a come back from what looked like irreversible defeat. This type of racing shifts the emphasis away from Manfredcurry and rewards looking up the co urse and anticipating where the pressure will be as much as keeping a clamp on the traing boat. This means the start will be less important but in the name of making it interesting rather than just obvious tactical starting and first beats or runs are nice IMHO.

#61 SW Sailor

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:53 AM

It is not that reaching starts confer an insurmountable advantage (fast skiffs and multis can come back much better than keelboats which have much smaller differentials) but that it is a less intellectual exercise than a square line for a beat or a run. That is why it may have been true that ACC race outcomes correlated 80% of the time with start winners but do not in the ACWS.

I don't see any data to support your position. What do you base your statement on ?

And it's not that it may have been true with monos, I cited facts so it is true.

#62 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:54 AM

Why would a reaching start would be easier or more difficult than another one if everybody is equal ?
And why would a difference at the first mark be insurmontable after a reach and easy after a beat ?

Seriously, are some sailors mentally handicapped ?

#63 Presuming Ed

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 07:19 AM

There's also a lot of money wasted on umpires and juries. Here's my modest proposal. Can those time-wasters. Instead decide protests with jousts. Adapt the speed trial principal but have two boats approaching each other with jousting poles. First to knock the opponent helm off the boat wins. A bit of kevlar body armour and they will be fine. Well, mostly fine.


Sounds a good plan.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image



#64 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:37 PM

If you like it you will have lots of fun, the AC72 will be much more dangerous than this joust.

#65 Amati

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:01 AM

Maybe he USFL model:
Instead of a kick off a sprint to the ball at the 50 yard line.
Whoever gets the ball starts the offense.
In this case there is a gate at mid course.
Two starting lines equally far away to port and starboard.
The start is like entering the box, full tilt to the gate.
Heaven help us.

With regard to the LAC, we haven't been very adventuresome with race format.
What we do differently than the America's Cup is that the defender isn't seeded to the finals.
This is like the world cup or any other real sport, the defending champion has to qualify like everyone else.
We do this with 3 days of fleet racing, which then turn set pairing for match race finals.
SHC


Water Polo does the same thing. Ball in the middle of the pool. 2 idiots sprinting at the ball. I was one of those idiots.

It does explain some things. After the 2nd or 3rd time you both arrive at the ball at the same time, you are never the same.

:lol:

#66 bruno

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:22 AM


It is not that reaching starts confer an insurmountable advantage (fast skiffs and multis can come back much better than keelboats which have much smaller differentials) but that it is a less intellectual exercise than a square line for a beat or a run. That is why it may have been true that ACC race outcomes correlated 80% of the time with start winners but do not in the ACWS.

I don't see any data to support your position. What do you base your statement on ?

And it's not that it may have been true with monos, I cited facts so it is true.


so there!
relax, homes.
may have been true is a common figure of speech in the english language, i understand.
my empirical observation is that 75% or more of acws start winners do not lead the race from start to finish and that that there are more lead changes in the acws than in past acc or americas cup races. this is merely based on my personal experience, imperfectly recalled on this date so help me god. others experiences may differ. having raced a bit in multis and skiffs i have noticed that quite large gaps can be made up rather quickly and covering can be harder than in nearly equal keelboats. that was my point and i personally do not think that it is particularly controversial but others experiences may differ, no warranty is expressed or implied...

#67 SW Sailor

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:46 AM



It is not that reaching starts confer an insurmountable advantage (fast skiffs and multis can come back much better than keelboats which have much smaller differentials) but that it is a less intellectual exercise than a square line for a beat or a run. That is why it may have been true that ACC race outcomes correlated 80% of the time with start winners but do not in the ACWS.

I don't see any data to support your position. What do you base your statement on ?

And it's not that it may have been true with monos, I cited facts so it is true.


so there!
relax, homes.
may have been true is a common figure of speech in the english language, i understand.
my empirical observation is that 75% or more of acws start winners do not lead the race from start to finish and that that there are more lead changes in the acws than in past acc or americas cup races. this is merely based on my personal experience, imperfectly recalled on this date so help me god. others experiences may differ. having raced a bit in multis and skiffs i have noticed that quite large gaps can be made up rather quickly and covering can be harder than in nearly equal keelboats. that was my point and i personally do not think that it is particularly controversial but others experiences may differ, no warranty is expressed or implied...

I'm fine with it either way, as the facts are the facts, and I agree with your point about lead changes with cats.

My opinion is that reaching starts are ok for the reasons cited - pretty simple.





#68 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:33 PM

I cited facts so it is true.


^^^^

#69 Steve Clark

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:06 PM

Stingray, you just say that to provoke me.
Just because you don't do something doesn't mean that you didn't think about it, carefully consider it, and then decide not to do it.
Sailing has many many traditions and routines that have merit simply because "that's the way we do things."
You want to respect this stuff.
If there is a good reason to change then you consider it.

In my view a reaching match race cedes too much to the right hand boat. He has the inside track for the first port rounding, has all the rights to delay and control the right hand boat. Russell showed this twice in Newport.
Once at the start and once at the turn to the run. In both cases he gained control of a very short race and won. I think this is a decent rationale for rejecting the so called innovation and staying staying with the match race start as developed over many years of trial and error.

SHC

#70 dogwatch

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:10 PM

my empirical observation is that 75% or more of acws start winners do not lead the race from start to finish



I watched all the broadcast races from Cascais, Plymouth and SD and I'm positive in most cases the boat that rounded mark 1 first went on to win, both in fleet and match races. I've rather lost interest this year and have only watched patchily so it is possible the proportions have changed.

#71 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:12 PM

^^ Fair enough.

Mark Turner did have a nice list of reasons in favor of the reaching start but it's on video and he talks fast, or I would take the time to transcribe it.

This is one of those subjects that could benefit by empirical data from the ACWS over the 133 races run so far. The raw data is there but analyzing it is no trivial task.

#72 dogwatch

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

^

Do you have a link to that please?

#73 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:49 PM

^

Do you have a link to that please?

You mean to Mark Turner's comments?

Rennmaus posted a link to the Day 4 Replay of ESS in Porto, in the ESS thread. MT spoke at ~about~ halfway thru it, it was not long after he joined in on the audio with Andy Rice.

Yes, he is a promoter, but again: not everything that is good for audiences is necessarily bad for racing; the reverse can be true too.

#74 Tony-F18

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

^

Do you have a link to that please?

Heard it too, Mark said it during his guest commentary session when the commentator asked what he would to improve or change.

#75 Rennmaus

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:56 PM

Day 4 replay:




#76 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:16 PM

Day 4 replay:




Bingo, thanks.

MT starts talking at about 2:12 (it is all an interesting listen) but starts on starting tactics at about 2:20, and then returns to starts at 2:24 and talks specifically about reaching starts at 2:24:30.

"I'd love to be doing reaching starts quite frankly here, but there's no way we can do it with the orientation of this stadium. Reaching starts are for me, from a public and a TV perspective, are fantastic and we do them as much as we can - which is not traditional at all but obviously more and more people are doing it and more events are doing it, and I think that's right. It's so much easier to understand for people and there's still skill involved, it's just a different set of skills. I think that's the whole thing with all of this - the good guys, whatever you do with the rules, however much you turn tradition on its head, the good sailors still end up at the top. That means we can innovate, we can keep changing, and we must."

#77 dogwatch

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:52 PM

from a public and a TV perspective


Thanks for transcribing that.

I don't care very much about the public and TV perspective. ESS is unabashedly in the entertainment business and I can see why they need to care. The AC is not in the entertainment business. It's there, ultimately, to fulfil the DoG and to provide the fair racing about which Schulyer, as a matter of historical record, evidently very much wished to ensure.

#78 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:17 PM

^ so the real question is: are reaching starts 'fair'?

MT argues they are fair, the best sailors still win.

#79 dogwatch

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:18 PM

^

And TH says they are "random". I've made my points on this question and repetition is tedious.

#80 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:33 PM

This one contains some quotes by people close to the action

http://www.luvmyboat...ect-start/6284/
...
The set of skills required to succeed compared to a conventional upwind start are quite different. So much so, that in the early days at the first event in Cascais, some sailors suggested the reaching start was like a lottery. But it quickly became apparent that some teams were consistently better than others at starting. The statistics suggested that much more than pure luck was in play.

By the end of San Diego, no one was talking about the reaching start as being a lottery any more, although there's no doubt that there is a thin line between success and failure. Having your nose out a fraction ahead of your rivals in the fleet racing - or the match racing for that matter - seems just as critical as it is in the traditional form of starting. But if you get your nose out too far, and break the start before the gun fires, then you've got to ease sails and slow down until you've cleared a penalty. From there it's playing catch-up, which is never easy.

In San Diego, Regatta Director Iain Murray explained the rationale behind the reaching start: "Part of the reason why we've gone down this route is that in a lot of racing the conventional upwind start proved to be everything, particularly in the match racing. With the reaching start, you get boats close together at first mark, and this opens up opportunities for the boats behind, as opposed to the boats ahead."

This proved to be the case in several match races in San Diego, with the trailing boat at the first mark accelerating past the leading boat by executing the first gybe flawlessly to grab an inside lane to the next turning gate.

Quite often the lead boat at the first turning mark comes from one extreme or the other of the start line. In the countdown to the start the teams are busy assessing the angle of the wind in relation to the first leg, and this helps them determine whether to go for the windward or downwind end of the line - or to try to pop out from the middle. Energy Team's Pete Greenhalgh talks about some of the thinking going on at this stage: "You have to assess the line bias, and then decide the level of risk you're prepared to take. You could aim to start right next to the mark but the closer you are, the less margin for error you have. So you can decide to pull out all the stops to lead round the first mark, or start closer to the middle of the line and aim for a more conservative 3rd or 4th position at mark one."

One thing is for sure, Greenhalgh does not believe in luck. "I think you can see there is some consistency to some of the teams. The Kiwis (Emirate Team New Zealand) and ORACLE Racing Spithill have proven time and time again that they can start consistently well on a reaching start. Bear in mind we do a lot of training races with these guys in between the competition races, and those guys are never at the back. There is a formula - how the boat is set-up so you can accelerate quickly, establishing whether the wind is going left or right at the time, good trimming to make the boat accelerate, time on distance judgement... lots of things go into getting a good start in the AC45."

It should be noted that both teams mentioned above have perhaps the most experienced and skilled wing trimmers in the fleet in Dirk 'Cheese' de Ridder on ORACLE Racing Spithill and Glenn Ashby (he of the multiple A-Class catamaran world championship titles) on Emirates Team New Zealand. Their skill in getting the most power out of the one-design wing sails to accelerate clear of the fleet is often a decisive factor in the starts. And that's no lottery.

- Andy Rice






#81 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:34 PM

From November, includes Booth commenting during a start:

http://www.americasc...reaching-start/

#82 ~Stingray~

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:42 PM

from http://www.vsail.inf...ch-racing-tour/
VSail.info: The Americaís Cup has also introduced novelties in the race formats. What do you think of them? Is there anything that could also be implemented in the WMRT? Could they make the sport of sailing more accessible or more spectacular, such as the reaching starts?
Peter Gilmour: I donít think the reaching start would be that valuable or applicable to monohulls. Itís a classic multihull problem due to the slow maneuverability they have in the prestart. I think the other elements, such as the box, the online presence, the onboard cameras, the accessibility to all those, are brilliant applications! If we only had the capital base the Americaís Cup has we would love to implement them. They have done some brilliant stuff that we look with envy.


From http://195.69.154.16...g-flash-quotes/
James Spithill Quotes

...


  • The reaching start is an absolute winner. I think in monohulls you spend half the time stuck head-to-wind. Itís good, exciting and fast.


#83 dogwatch

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:06 PM

By the end of San Diego, no one was talking about the reaching start as being a lottery any more (quoting Andy Rice)


A good piece but that particular remark was obsoleted by more recent remarks by TH in Seahorse.

#84 nav

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:11 PM


from a public and a TV perspective


Thanks for transcribing that.

I don't care very much about the public and TV perspective. ESS is unabashedly in the entertainment business and I can see why they need to care. The AC is not in the entertainment business. It's there, ultimately, to fulfil the DoG and to provide the fair racing about which Schulyer, as a matter of historical record, evidently very much wished to ensure.


The trouble with this argument is that as long as the people involved in the AC - and especially whoever wins it and the next challenger - feel that they want to engage with the public/sponsors/TV/FacebookPosted Imageetc there is little to stop them apparently, Deed or no Deed.

The 'personality' of the AC will keep changing to match the times and the participants it seems.

#85 bruno

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:25 PM

I think that there is some muddling here, are reaching starts good for:
a. match racing, maybe given the telegenicity of a Nascar first turn thing.
b. fleet racing, maybe not, different set of skills that may be less complex than a square line and first leg, though the mayhem potential could be good for repair business.
c. random, not really as there is a pretty well defined skill set involved.
d. determinative, maybe in match racing but I personally don't think so in fleet but again depends on the constraints, boundaries, etc.
e. good for monos, probably not though it would be interesting to see a skiff fleet try it for a while.
f. good for multis, maybe given that multis turn slower on average.
g. refreshing change, yes, given the over emphasis on W/L courses in the past 20 yrs.
h. sine qua non that all races need to switch to, no.
Given that the ACWS races to date have had short 1st legs after a reach start it tends to set the hierarchy sooner than in a long weather or running leg with the chance to sail through some shifts to shake up the established order from the start. Racing becomes more collegiate (just win the start) and less traditional (comeback potential from a mediocre start). This is easier for the masses to comprehend but less interesting for the participants. If you like double points medal races then you probably like reaching starts and short 1st legs.
Opinions expressed are just that, opinions, no claim to factual basis is implied or intended.

#86 Koukel

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:38 PM

I think that there is some muddling here, are reaching starts good for:
a. match racing, maybe given the telegenicity of a Nascar first turn thing.

Thoughtful post. I agree with most of it. I don't think you understand Nascar however and I think using the word telegenicity is silly. This is more an X-games innovation than Nascar. The hole shot is where we less sophisticated people get to see who is in first second or inner row outer row and so on. Nascar is nearly the reverse of this because every turn is 2-3 cars wide and the whole field is restarted whenever there is a good crash.

Sailing is all about break away speed. You get the edge on a competitor or fleet and then hope to sail under entirely different conditions for an easy victory, or the leaders get parked and a wind filling from behind puts you near or into the lead. Break away speed.*

Nascar, like formula racing, bicycle racing, tennis, gymnastics, golf and arguably bowling is predominantly about being better than your competitors over and over and over again, in increments.

Koukel


* Baseball, basketball, hockey, and every kind of football too. Chess for that matter and curling. Dating, but definitely not marriage.

#87 Koukel

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:24 PM

Sailing is all about break away speed. You get the edge on a competitor or fleet and then hope to sail under entirely different conditions for an easy victory, or the leaders get parked and a wind filling from behind puts you near or into the lead. Break away speed.*

Koukel

Argh! Too clever by half. Grand Tour bicycle racing is digital, whereas a track sprint is clearly analog.

Similarly any one race in yachting is about break away speed (analog), but over a series it becomes just the opposite. America's Cup is still a series, right?

Me again.

#88 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:10 AM

^ AC34 will be best of nine.

'Randomness' to the inside of the first mark will ~not~ decide who wins the Cup. Unless there's a bearaway catastrophe? The best sailed, best designed, best campaign ~will~ win it.

Reaching starts will be a factor but a relatively small part from a P80 Osprey's birdseye perspective.

#89 SW Sailor

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:59 AM

Not having seen what it will take to muscle an AC72 around the course I think specific decisions will determine risk, or a risk averse strategy that could well determine the winner. The LV series will be very telling and I'm sure will receive alot of attention.

#90 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:12 AM

^^^^
So, what did you decide ? is reaching start fair or unfair ?

Generale rule of the thumb, take Sailor Boy "facts", decide the contrary,...... and you are right. :rolleyes:

But maybe he had one chance out of two to be rigth this time. :blink:

#91 SW Sailor

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:37 AM

I decided to not respond with specifics to trolls that can't read.

#92 dogwatch

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:00 AM

Reaching starts will be a factor but a relatively small part from a P80 Osprey's birdseye perspective.


Yes I suspect AC34 will be mostly be about getting through the duration of the regatta without destroying the boat. Secondly, about getting around the course without damaging the boat. Thirdly, about fast manoeuvres and acceleration out of them. I don't think it's going to be very much about sailing tactics or sheer boat speed. But we shall see.

#93 SW Sailor

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:10 AM


Reaching starts will be a factor but a relatively small part from a P80 Osprey's birdseye perspective.


Yes I suspect AC34 will be mostly be about getting through the duration of the regatta without destroying the boat. Secondly, about getting around the course without damaging the boat. Thirdly, about fast manoeuvres and acceleration out of them. I don't think it's going to be very much about sailing tactics or sheer boat speed. But we shall see.

Not sure how tactics are not part of preserving assets on the course, but maybe you missed the VOR.

#94 Koukel

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:23 PM

Not sure how tactics are not part of preserving assets on the course, but maybe you missed the VOR.

I frequently mix these up, but I think preserving assets over time would be a strategy.

I think dogwatch is saying there are a few tactics typicaly used in prestarts over the past 50 years that no longer apply. He may also be discounting some of the new tactics introduced by the reaching start and not common in an upwind start. That is a sign of someone who has made up their mind and is comfortable with it. If anyone understands how this feels, it has to be you.

I think the reaching start is fair, although it may have slightly fewer moves than an upwind start. Time will tell.

Koukel

#95 SW Sailor

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:39 AM


Not sure how tactics are not part of preserving assets on the course, but maybe you missed the VOR.

I frequently mix these up, but I think preserving assets over time would be a strategy.

I think dogwatch is saying there are a few tactics typicaly used in prestarts over the past 50 years that no longer apply. He may also be discounting some of the new tactics introduced by the reaching start and not common in an upwind start. That is a sign of someone who has made up their mind and is comfortable with it. If anyone understands how this feels, it has to be you.

I think the reaching start is fair, although it may have slightly fewer moves than an upwind start. Time will tell.

Koukel


I think you've mistaken me for someone dead set in their beliefs that the way things have been done in the past are the way they should be done in the future.

I've remained open to the developments of AC34 from the start, reaching starts included, ever since I got caught in the weather leg of a practice start last year off of Alcatraz and watched JC and RC fly by me 20 feet away doing 20 knots chasing each other.

I'll render a final opinion when the LVS and AC are over - my crystal ball is not that clear with a new event, new format, and new boats.

#96 Koukel

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 04:30 PM

So here is a world class upwind start. Not that a reaching start would provide any difference, but without helicopters how could you tell whether two boats, three boats or just one boat is over the line early?

FYI, Olympic coverage is spectacular if you can get it online.

Koukel

Attached Files



#97 dogwatch

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 04:56 PM

So here is a world class upwind start. Not that a reaching start would provide any difference, but without helicopters how could you tell whether two boats, three boats or just one boat is over the line early?


Standard operating procedure has a race officer standing precisely on the line and recording into whatever recording device he trusts......USA123 is over, GBR456 is over. If you are used to being on a committee boat it's usually pretty obvious who is lining up early. Some race committees also have cameras recording the line (Olympics almost certainly does). Double up with committee boats at both ends and you increase your chances of identifying who is over. If you cannot identify who is over because there are too many, you signal general recall and try again. Usually with a black flag to discourage the over-eager.

Sometimes, almost everybody is over but the race officer can identify who is not. Boat #99 to finish gets the winners gun, to everyone's surprise including boat #99. It has been done.

#98 ~Stingray~

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:22 AM

^ Do the Olympics officials have 2cm GPS accuracy, on-board cameras, multiple helicopter live views of the start line, with a superimposed line sponsored by LV?

SOP is nice in a quaint kinda way, but ACWS has raised the bar to a whole new territory.

The Olympics TV coverage - does it show ~any~ live on board cameras? Overhead layline graphics? Lead line grids? Real time speeds in knots for each boat? If not then what ~do~ they have? Just some guy droning on about the great GB hope BA incessantly, on just another triangle in the far distance?

#99 maxmini

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 04:31 AM

^ Do the Olympics officials have 2cm GPS accuracy, on-board cameras, multiple helicopter live views of the start line, with a superimposed line sponsored by LV?

SOP is nice in a quaint kinda way, but ACWS has raised the bar to a whole new territory.

The Olympics TV coverage - does it show ~any~ live on board cameras? Overhead layline graphics? Lead line grids? Real time speeds in knots for each boat? If not then what ~do~ they have? Just some guy droning on about the great GB hope BA incessantly, on just another triangle in the far distance?


Too soon to say , they haven't done any sailing yet :D

#100 sunseeker

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 05:27 AM


^ Do the Olympics officials have 2cm GPS accuracy, on-board cameras, multiple helicopter live views of the start line, with a superimposed line sponsored by LV?

SOP is nice in a quaint kinda way, but ACWS has raised the bar to a whole new territory.

The Olympics TV coverage - does it show ~any~ live on board cameras? Overhead layline graphics? Lead line grids? Real time speeds in knots for each boat? If not then what ~do~ they have? Just some guy droning on about the great GB hope BA incessantly, on just another triangle in the far distance?


Too soon to say , they haven't done any sailing yet :D


Actually they did sail today and Ainslie was beaten twice by the Dane.

Yes stingray the Olympics do have decent coverage, in the us we only get nbcolympics.com webcast with no voice over. Decent graphics with ahead behind lines, helicopter shots ect. Nothing line ACWS, but pretty good actually. No Inboard cams today, but I only was able to see the star race. I'll bet the women's match racing has on board cams.

2nd race finish of hhe stars was amazing. Scheidt beat Percy by an rch, if that. If you don't know what an rch is, then you don't really race.




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