178 replies to this topic

[Soñadora]

I've spent the last couple of days trying to track down this answer (including searching the shit out of this site, so don't gimme that 'search is your friend' baloney).

I am using a galvanic isolator. I get that the green ground from my shorepower should go to the isolater right after the shorepower inlet. But then where does it go from the isolator? I've read that then it goes to the 'grounding bus'. Ok, I get that, sorta. The grounding bus is wired to the grounding lug on the engine. Got it. The galvanic isolation circuit (all the green wires attached to metal stuff on board like shafts, thru hulls, etc) is also attached to the grounding bus.

But, isn't the DC 'ground' (Neg) also attached to that bus? If there's a fault in the AC, won't it feed back through the green wire and into the battery? Do all my DC Neg leads go to the grounding bus or is there a different bus this will go to?

I have 2 battery banks of 2x T-105s. One house and one starter. These are wired through a m6011 Dual Circuit plus switch with an Automatic Charging Relay:


I've done a lot of electrical stuff in cars but for some reason I have the dumb when it comes to what I'm supposed to do on the boat. I think the combination of AC and DC on the boat is causing me more confusion than it should.

I guess what it boils down to is if the green wire is basically the same as the DC black (NEG) and do I just wire it up to the negative DC bus (on the left side in the diagram above which also serves as neg bus for DC fixtures)?

[sailman]

Doing a little searching Yandina had a workable schematic:

 galviso.png   33.2K   83 downloads

My reading of this installation is that all the grounds are common to each other. From the Shore power connection that ground goes to one end of the isolator and the other end goes to the "vessel" ground.

4. Connect either of the green leads from the isolator to the vacated terminal of the shore power connector.

5. Connect the other green lead from the isolator to the vessel ground wire you removed, using the compression connector supplied. Shorten the leads if necessary.

[Ishmael]

From my understanding, having wired in a couple of GI's, the main purpose of the isolator is to remove the DC ripple (the main cause of AC-induced galvanic corrosion) from the incoming AC. Once that's done, it's a regular ground.

[Soñadora]

yes, I've seen that diagram. And I get that everything I've read says the ground is 'common'. Maybe my problem is I just don't understand AC/DC well enough. Shouldn't they be kept separate? My intuition is telling me that having the green wire attached to the same 'circuit' as the black battery ground would cause a major problem if there's a fault in the AC. No? Like I said, I'm probably over thinking this.

[Soñadora]

From my understanding, having wired in a couple of GI's, the main purpose of the isolator is to remove the DC ripple (the main cause of AC-induced galvanic corrosion) from the incoming AC. Once that's done, it's a regular ground.

My understanding of GI is that the diodes prevent the DC current 'feedback' at very low currents. However if there's a short, the GI 'opens up' and allows the large amount of current to pass through to ground with no resistance, preventing the short from making it's way into the water and shocking the hell out of some lunatic who'd be swimming in the 60 degree marina water.

I might have that wrong. I get shit wrong a lot. That's why I don't design bridges.

[BalticBandit]

yes, I've seen that diagram. And I get that everything I've read says the ground is 'common'. Maybe my problem is I just don't understand AC/DC well enough. Shouldn't they be kept separate? My intuition is telling me that having the green wire attached to the same 'circuit' as the black battery ground would cause a major problem if there's a fault in the AC. No? Like I said, I'm probably over thinking this.

Think of it this way. If it was your house, "Ground" litterally attaches to... The Ground. Whether AC or DC.

ALL VOLTAGE is RELATIVE. So if you have multiple devices that share a power source, they need to share the "reference" that the power is "relative to". That's The Ground. There is no inherent reason that cannot be the same piece of metal that AC and DC both use. And the purpose of GROUND is to provide all of these devices an extremely low resistance path to "ground" so that even if your body is completing a circuit from the device to "ground" that your body will be the "high resistance" path.

Total Resistance then is ^(R1xR2)/_(R1+R2) dry human body is roughly 100k ohms. IEEE recommends that Galvanic Isolators have less than 5 ohms resistance. So total resistance then is 500,000/100,005 = 4.99ohms.

Current flow then with 120 volts ==> V=IR ==> 120/4.99 = 24.05 amps. Current over each component resistor is V_common x R. So 120/5 (the GI) == 24amps So the current fflowing through the body becomes 0.05 Amps....

[Cavelamb]

Sons,

Looks like Sailman hit it.

As a side issue, way back when, back when televisions and washing machines were coal
powered and electricity was all new-fangled, a lot of the country was wired with single
power wire and the return path was literally the ground outside. It was even called -
Single Wire Earth Return. That's how we got into the habit of calling
the return path "ground". (strangely enough that is still used more than I thought)

While there are some serious disadvantages to this scheme, it is (still) used widely when
the cost of power line was higher than the cost of isolation transformers.

But normally the black and white wires come from the power company and the green
is connected to a metal rod driven into the ground (!) near the power panel.

Ok so while that's all well and good (or not) it doesn't much help here.

Except maybe this?

We get confused some times referring to both the normal return path (black wire) and
protective ground (green wire) as "ground". They are NOT the same thing.
As I'm sure you know.

Black wire is AC return. It completes the circuit; returns power from the white wire.
(hopefully with something between them).

The green wire is protective ground. This is generally attached to the case, housing,
or whatever people might come in contact with. It is NOT supposed to be part of the circuit.
It is there to protect anything outside the case (thus outside world) from any problems
that may arise inside the case.

A loose wire contacting the case (WITHOUT PROTECTIVE GROUND) would electrify the
case - and anything that touched it.
BAD. Very Bad.
WITH a protective ground, when that happens the path is then a direct short to protective
ground and blows the fuse, breaker, or GFI. So that's all the green wire does.

Sailman's schematic shows an optional connection to the negative terminal of the battery.

My setup (outboard) the green wire only goes as far as the battery charger. Protects
the metal case. But for an inboard engine, with a prop in the water all the time, connecting
the green to the battery negative makes more sense for electrical bonding and prevention
of galvanic corrosion, and lightning protection.

The engine block already DC grounded. (black wire back to the battery)
So adding the green wire to the battery negative (black) adds AC protective ground (from
the shore power connection) to the DC system. (see note 6 below though!)

I can not speak with any real authority on the interpretation of the National Electric Code.
However, my understanding of what I have read in the past is summarized in the following statements.

1.) Technically, circuits running at less than 50V do not require grounding.
2.) However, all current carrying conductors in an ungrounded circuit need to have
over-current protection devices and disconnects installed. (fuse, breaker, etc)
3.) Equipment-grounding conductors should be used with appliances to ground exposed
metal surfaces. (you know this.)
4.) Prior to 1996 ground wires needed to be the same size as the largest conductor in a
DC system. This is still a good guideline.
However, with the release of the 1996 National Electric Code several exceptions were
made that now allow smaller conductors to be used in certain cases.
5.) If the requirements for the AC and DC grounding electrode conductors are different,
the larger of the two should be used for any common conductor. Also the common
grounding point should be associated with the largest required grounding electrode
conductor.
6.) Be sure to keep in mind that the connection between a current-carrying conductors
and the grounding conductor should be made only at one point in the system!

You also need to keep in mind that these statements may not be completely accurate.
They represent my understanding of what the code requires.

[Cavelamb]

While we're on this subject...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57467293/2nd-boy-dies-from-shock-in-tenn-lake/



AP) BEAN STATION, Tenn. - Investigators say a second boy has died after being
shocked by a suspected faulty cord from a houseboat as they swam in Cherokee Lake. Grainger County Sheriff Scott Layel said 11-year-old Nathan Lynam died Thursday night
at Children's Hospital in Knoxville. Ten-year-old Noah Winstead of Morristown died at the
scene Wednesday afternoon.

3 children electrocuted in Tenn., Mo.
Wiring problems eyed in 3 kids' swimming deaths

Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency spokesman Matt Cameron said a marine surveyor
was helping Thursday as investigators looked for the source of the electrical charge.
The boys were shocked as they swam near two houseboats.

Layel said it wasn't immediately clear whether the boys encountered an electrical field in the

[Soñadora]

ok That helps tons Cave and Bandit

So, if I'm understanding this right, the green wire will serve three purposes

1.) Protection from anything in the AC that might cause a fault (AC hot wire breaks and comes in contact with metal). Instead of the metal being 'energized', current flows to 'ground' which is a zero resistance situation causing an overcurrent situation that trips the breaker
2.) Galvanic Isolation by giving any stray current in the water a place to go instead of eating whatever metal thing is exposed in the water. The isolator allows the low current to flow through, but if there's a fault somewhere, it will 'close' and allow the green wire to do it's job.
3.) Lightening protection, though I'm somewhat skeptical that the green wire would be able to handle the extreme current from lightening.

Conclusion is that I'm okay using the 'grounding bus' like you see in the image I posted from BlueSea. If I can use a grounding bus like that, it will make things nice and tidy.

[Soñadora]

While we're on this subject...

http://www.cbsnews.c...k-in-tenn-lake/



AP) BEAN STATION, Tenn. - Investigators say a second boy has died after being
shocked by a suspected faulty cord from a houseboat as they swam in Cherokee Lake. Grainger County Sheriff Scott Layel said 11-year-old Nathan Lynam died Thursday night
at Children's Hospital in Knoxville. Ten-year-old Noah Winstead of Morristown died at the
scene Wednesday afternoon.

3 children electrocuted in Tenn., Mo.
Wiring problems eyed in 3 kids' swimming deaths

Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency spokesman Matt Cameron said a marine surveyor
was helping Thursday as investigators looked for the source of the electrical charge.
The boys were shocked as they swam near two houseboats.

Layel said it wasn't immediately clear whether the boys encountered an electrical field in the

dayum!

Would that be a case of shore power shorting out on the boat without the green wire attached properly (or to anything)? So the short energizes the boat, but because the green wire isn't there to 'carry it away' and trip the breaker, it passes through whoever touches the boat and ground. Kid swims around boat, is ok until he touches ground or the dock or whatever.

[sailman]

While we're on this subject...

http://www.cbsnews.c...k-in-tenn-lake/



AP) BEAN STATION, Tenn. - Investigators say a second boy has died after being
shocked by a suspected faulty cord from a houseboat as they swam in Cherokee Lake. Grainger County Sheriff Scott Layel said 11-year-old Nathan Lynam died Thursday night
at Children's Hospital in Knoxville. Ten-year-old Noah Winstead of Morristown died at the
scene Wednesday afternoon.

3 children electrocuted in Tenn., Mo.
Wiring problems eyed in 3 kids' swimming deaths

Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency spokesman Matt Cameron said a marine surveyor
was helping Thursday as investigators looked for the source of the electrical charge.
The boys were shocked as they swam near two houseboats.

Layel said it wasn't immediately clear whether the boys encountered an electrical field in the

dayum!

Would that be a case of shore power shorting out on the boat without the green wire attached properly (or to anything)? So the short energizes the boat, but because the green wire isn't there to 'carry it away' and trip the breaker, it passes through whoever touches the boat and ground. Kid swims around boat, is ok until he touches ground or the dock or whatever.

It's worse than that, the circuit was not protected. It didn't trip so you had AC voltage entering the water looking for a ground, since it is not pure H20 (which can not conduct electricity) it acted as a conductor but the voltage spread out in a cloud or a wide path to where it was eventually "grounding". These kids swam into an electric field, I have seen other articles like this before and am always on the look out at marinas for poor wiring.

[Soñadora]

It's worse than that, the circuit was not protected. It didn't trip so you had AC voltage entering the water looking for a ground, since it is not pure H20 (which can not conduct electricity) it acted as a conductor but the voltage spread out in a cloud or a wide path to where it was eventually "grounding". These kids swam into an electric field, I have seen other articles like this before and am always on the look out at marinas for poor wiring.

so they don't even have to touch ground for that to happen? They'll get zapped just floating in the water?

[Cavelamb]

It's worse than that, the circuit was not protected. It didn't trip so you had AC voltage entering the water looking for a ground, since it is not pure H20 (which can not conduct electricity) it acted as a conductor but the voltage spread out in a cloud or a wide path to where it was eventually "grounding". These kids swam into an electric field, I have seen other articles like this before and am always on the look out at marinas for poor wiring.

so they don't even have to touch ground for that to happen? They'll get zapped just floating in the water?

Most likely the electrical field just paralyzes the muscles and they drown.

[SEMIJim]

Black wire is AC return. It completes the circuit; returns power from the white wire.
...
I can not speak with any real authority on the interpretation of the National Electric Code.
...
You also need to keep in mind that these statements may not be completely accurate.

Yow!

"May not?" Only those last two sentences are accurate. The first is wildly inaccurate. And dangerous, if somebody should proceed on the assumption it's correct.

The black wire in AC residential and commercial wiring is NOT "return."

In U.S. residential/commercial 208VAC or 240VAC circuits, black and white are simply L1 and L2., respectively. On 120VAC branch circuits, black and white are "hot" and "neutral," respectively.

The concept of a "return wire" in AC is essentially meaningless.

This thing with AC circuits using black for either L1 or "hot" is said to be the reason that ABYC specified yellow as an alternate DC ground wire colour in boats.

As an aside: Neutral is not ground and ground is not neutral, despite the fact the two may be at the same potential.

Jim

[BalticBandit]

For lightning, pretty much NOTHING will handle a direct strike. The way lightening protection works is that you essentially "pre-bleed" the building charge and thus prevent the strike from happening.

[Moonduster]

Is there any reason that you're not installing an isolation transformer, which would actually prevent the problem rather than installing some band-aid that attempts to address the symptoms?

As far as your question goes, there's not sufficient detail here to be confident in any of the answers. But there's plenty of questionable advise. What model isolator are you installing?

[Cavelamb]

Black wire is AC return. It completes the circuit; returns power from the white wire.
...
I can not speak with any real authority on the interpretation of the National Electric Code.
...
You also need to keep in mind that these statements may not be completely accurate.

Yow!

"May not?" Only those last two sentences are accurate. The first is wildly inaccurate. And dangerous, if somebody should proceed on the assumption it's correct.

The black wire in AC residential and commercial wiring is NOT "return."

In U.S. residential/commercial 208VAC or 240VAC circuits, black and white are simply L1 and L2., respectively. On 120VAC branch circuits, black and white are "hot" and "neutral," respectively.

The concept of a "return wire" in AC is essentially meaningless.

This thing with AC circuits using black for either L1 or "hot" is said to be the reason that ABYC specified yellow as an alternate DC ground wire colour in boats.

As an aside: Neutral is not ground and ground is not neutral, despite the fact the two may be at the same potential.

Jim

Or maybe the other way around?

[Soñadora]

Is there any reason that you're not installing an isolation transformer, which would actually prevent the problem rather than installing some band-aid that attempts to address the symptoms?

As far as your question goes, there's not sufficient detail here to be confident in any of the answers. But there's plenty of questionable advise. What model isolator are you installing?

Isolation Transformer = $800 weighs 60lb

Galvanic Isolator = Free (P.O. installed) weighs < 1lb

As far as my question, what detail is missing? It's a pretty simple question, pretty simple setup. My boat is just a li'l ol' 30'er and I'm not trying to power a small, eastern European country.

[Moonduster]

How about the make and model of the isolator?

I guess my view is that you either have a problem or you don't. If you don't have a problem, then the isolator is unnecessary. If you do have a problem, the isolator doesn't necessarily solve it - and the $800 is the least of your worries.

And you can put the isolation transformer in your dock box ... and if you're US based with a scrawny (~30A) battery charger, you can get away with a lot, lot less than $800 and know that the problem is actually no longer possible.

[Soñadora]

How about the make and model of the isolator?

I guess my view is that you either have a problem or you don't. If you don't have a problem, then the isolator is unnecessary. If you do have a problem, the isolator doesn't necessarily solve it - and the $800 is the least of your worries.

And you can put the isolation transformer in your dock box ... and if you're US based with a scrawny (~30A) battery charger, you can get away with a lot, lot less than $800 and know that the problem is actually no longer possible.

I like the dockside idea. Will need to look into that.

This is my proposed 120v setup. I think the question really for me was just what do I do with the green wire, galvanic isolator or not.

Anyway, I need to get to the boat and do some real work

Attached Files

•  120v Power-0000.jpg   174.7K   75 downloads
•  120v Distribution-0000.jpg   241.92K   103 downloads
•  120v Panel-0000.jpg   274.42K   82 downloads

[Cavelamb]

This is my proposed 120v setup. I think the question really for me was just what do I do with the green wire, galvanic isolator or not.

Anyway, I need to get to the boat and do some real work

Sons,

Two things I see that would give me any pause to comment is the extra SET (two each ground circuit) of connections between the ground bus
and those ac ground terminals.

Any way you can avoid that?
Longer ground bus perhaps?
Or another bus bar and a heavy shorting strap between them?

The other is the protective covers for the AC stuff.
That with a placard "DANGER - HIGH VOLTAGE - IDIOTS KEEP OUT".


How are your going to actually do that work?
Upside down through the hatch?
You are going to be able to read labels upside down? Or count terminals to get the right connection?

OR?
Can all this be mounted on a hinged board so it can be brought up where it is easy to get at?
All that takes is routing the wires along the hinge line then down the board.




BTW, your modeling still just awes the shit out of me.
(Awww! Lookit that shit!)

[Soñadora]

1341697691[/url]' post='3778425']

1341688123[/url]' post='3778349']
This is my proposed 120v setup. I think the question really for me was just what do I do with the green wire, galvanic isolator or not.

Anyway, I need to get to the boat and do some real work

Sons,

Two things I see that would give me any pause to comment is the extra SET (two each ground circuit) of connections between the ground bus
and those ac ground terminals.

Any way you can avoid that?
Longer ground bus perhaps?
Or another bus bar and a heavy shorting strap between them?

The other is the protective covers for the AC stuff.
That with a placard "DANGER - HIGH VOLTAGE - IDIOTS KEEP OUT".


How are your going to actually do that work?
Upside down through the hatch?
You are going to be able to read labels upside down? Or count terminals to get the right connection?

OR?
Can all this be mounted on a hinged board so it can be brought up where it is easy to get at?
All that takes is routing the wires along the hinge line then down the board.




BTW, your modeling still just awes the shit out of me.
(Awww! Lookit that shit!)

Thanks Cave. Glad you like it
I went back and forth on those terminal strips (neutral has the same issue). I had it in my head that it would make things neater, but after looking at it, there doesn't seem to be an advantage. I don't need a longer bus, I'd just remove the strips (except for hot)

A hinged panel would be a good idea.

[Moonduster]

Your wiring, as shown, ought to work ok. That said, the ABYC won't like it. Yes, they suck but a good surveyor will take exception with your arrangement. You can find the ABYC requirements here.

Here's the questionable stuff I see. Most of it assumes that your bus bars are closer to your panel than they are to your battery.

You are connecting your battery return to your engine block at the distribution bus bar. The cable from the engine block must go straight to the battery. There's pretty good reasons for this - mostly about limiting IR drop and protecting your alternator. See ABYC 11.5.2.7.2.

It would seem that you are allowed only one connection between your AC ground (green wire) and your DC return/ground/negative (black wire). That suggests you need to introduce an AC Ground bus bar and have a single wire from that to your DC ground bus bar. See ABYC 11.5.3.

To me, your AC Ground and AC Neutral hookups for your AC Accessories seem questionable. Why not simply wire the green and white cores in the accessory cables directly to the corresponding bus bars and eliminate 66% of the connections in those runs? Reliability is safety in the AC connections.

The physical distance between your AC distribution panel and your AC bus bars makes it seem that you're forced to violate the ABYC requirement that all three wires of an AC circuit are to run in a single sheathed cable. See ABYC 11.5.3.4.

You don't mention if you have an inverter. If so, the one required AC/DCground connection needs to be done in accordance with the inverter's instructions and some inverters make that connection internally.

On a related note - it's important to realize that an AC-powered accessory (like a PC plugged into a charging brick) that is connected to your DC system (as happens when you run a USB cable through most USB-to-serial adaptors) will connect your AC ground to your DC return through the accessory. Yet another flavor of this happens when an AC-power TV is connected to your DC-powered audio system. Be careful about introducing ground loops and/or bypassing galvanic protection mechanisms as a result of these "weird" AC-to-DC ground connections. Nearly every boat has this problem these days and it violates the ABYC requirement for a single AC/DC ground connection point. Sigh.

Disclaimer: power on boats, especially AC power, is a severe hazard and will almost certainly kill you regardless of how it's wired. You are hopelessly imperriled by any attempts to mix electricity and water.

Good luck!

[xyzzy]

It looks like you plan to use terminal strips like this:

If so, I wouldn't do that. For one, check the min-max gauges the strips accept vs the wire gauges you need to use for your breaker sizes. You might well find it's not going to work. But besides that.

• They are PITA to use when not fully accessible. Is the wire in far enough? It is in too far and the wire's insulation is preventing contact? Is the wire on the other side in too far and preventing this from going in? Did the strands get bent out of place?
• They aren't sealed. Any water or condensation on the wire drips down into the terminal and then it sits there with the wire stands and the terminal's mating bits. Gets corroded.
• They aren't reliable. The pressure on the wire with the tiny set screw that isn't locked is insufficient. Maybe the screw backs out? Maybe you thought it was tight but the wire just hadn't crushed down all the way? And even if you do get it tight, the holding power is just crap compared to a proper crimp terminal. They pull and vibrate out.

Does ABYC even allow them for power? You'd be a lot better off just putting ring terminals on the ends of your wire runs and connecting them directly to the screw terminal strips you already have in the pictures.

[Soñadora]

That's good info. Thanks. Those strips seem like they would be convenient (no crimping), but I can see how they would not be convenient or secure. I have plenty of the typical screw-type terminal strips, so that won't be a problem.

Disclaimer: power on boats, especially AC power, is a severe hazard and will
almost certainly kill you regardless of how it's wired. You are hopelessly
imperriled by any attempts to mix electricity and water.

and thanks for sentencing us all to death

I appreciate the ABYC references and will look into them, but maybe dial it back a bit on the doom and gloom. Folks have had power on boats since the lightbulb and to my knowledge, they didn't ALL die from having power on their boats. Unless I've been mislead all these years and that's just the price you have to pay for having a boat. In which case, why didn't someone tell me sooner?

[sailSAK]

Reading through this thread has got me thinking that in this case the best solution is to hire a legitimate licensed and bonded electrician for this job. No offense to Sons, who possess a disproportionate amount of the worlds talent but not everything is DIY.

[Whisper]

That's good info. Thanks. Those strips seem like they would be convenient (no crimping), but I can see how they would not be convenient or secure. I have plenty of the typical screw-type terminal strips, so that won't be a problem.

Disclaimer: power on boats, especially AC power, is a severe hazard and will
almost certainly kill you regardless of how it's wired. You are hopelessly
imperriled by any attempts to mix electricity and water.

and thanks for sentencing us all to death

I appreciate the ABYC references and will look into them, but maybe dial it back a bit on the doom and gloom. Folks have had power on boats since the lightbulb and to my knowledge, they didn't ALL die from having power on their boats. Unless I've been mislead all these years and that's just the price you have to pay for having a boat. In which case, why didn't someone tell me sooner?

There's a 100% correlation between power on boats, and death. Every person who has had electrical power on a boat will die, if they haven't already. No exceptions!

[Soñadora]

That's good info. Thanks. Those strips seem like they would be convenient (no crimping), but I can see how they would not be convenient or secure. I have plenty of the typical screw-type terminal strips, so that won't be a problem.

Disclaimer: power on boats, especially AC power, is a severe hazard and will
almost certainly kill you regardless of how it's wired. You are hopelessly
imperriled by any attempts to mix electricity and water.

and thanks for sentencing us all to death

I appreciate the ABYC references and will look into them, but maybe dial it back a bit on the doom and gloom. Folks have had power on boats since the lightbulb and to my knowledge, they didn't ALL die from having power on their boats. Unless I've been mislead all these years and that's just the price you have to pay for having a boat. In which case, why didn't someone tell me sooner?

There's a 100% correlation between power on boats, and death. Every person who has had electrical power on a boat will die, if they haven't already. No exceptions!

ha ha

as for 'licensed and bonded' that does not guarantee 'competent'

[Soñadora]

Again, I appreciate the reference Moon. Sometimes it's a PITA to go through specs as they can be pretty hard to understand. I will say the ABYC requirements are pretty easy to follow.

Your wiring, as shown, ought to work ok. That said, the ABYC won't like it. Yes, they suck but a good surveyor will take exception with your arrangement. You can find the ABYC requirements here.

Here's the questionable stuff I see. Most of it assumes that your bus bars are closer to your panel than they are to your battery.

You are connecting your battery return to your engine block at the distribution bus bar. The cable from the engine block must go straight to the battery. There's pretty good reasons for this - mostly about limiting IR drop and protecting your alternator. See ABYC 11.5.2.7.2.

So, I don't need the wire from the battery to the bus, just the wire from the engine lug to the bus.

It would seem that you are allowed only one connection between your AC ground (green wire) and your DC return/ground/negative (black wire). That suggests you need to introduce an AC Ground bus bar and have a single wire from that to your DC ground bus bar. See ABYC 11.5.3.

I thought that's what I had drawn. Note the black wire at the bottom labeld 'To DC Negative Bus'. Is that what this is referring to?

To me, your AC Ground and AC Neutral hookups for your AC Accessories seem questionable. Why not simply wire the green and white cores in the accessory cables directly to the corresponding bus bars and eliminate 66% of the connections in those runs? Reliability is safety in the AC connections.

Yes, I'm going to take out those intermediate terminals.

The physical distance between your AC distribution panel and your AC bus bars makes it seem that you're forced to violate the ABYC requirement that all three wires of an AC circuit are to run in a single sheathed cable. See ABYC 11.5.3.4.

The actual wording is:

In AC circuit, all current carrying conductors and the grounding conductor shall be run together in the same cable, bundle or raceway.

I would interperate that as meaning it should not be mixed with DC, and can be 'bundled' together

You don't mention if you have an inverter. If so, the one required AC/DCground connection needs to be done in accordance with the inverter's instructions and some inverters make that connection internally.

On a related note - it's important to realize that an AC-powered accessory (like a PC plugged into a charging brick) that is connected to your DC system (as happens when you run a USB cable through most USB-to-serial adaptors) will connect your AC ground to your DC return through the accessory. Yet another flavor of this happens when an AC-power TV is connected to your DC-powered audio system. Be careful about introducing ground loops and/or bypassing galvanic protection mechanisms as a result of these "weird" AC-to-DC ground connections. Nearly every boat has this problem these days and it violates the ABYC requirement for a single AC/DC ground connection point. Sigh.

No inverter (other than the cigarette style) and no plans to connect any AC to DC (though possibly a laptop). The only AC stuff we will use will be connected through the AC circuit and then only at the dock.

Disclaimer: power on boats, especially AC power, is a severe hazard and will almost certainly kill you regardless of how it's wired. You are hopelessly imperriled by any attempts to mix electricity and water.

Good luck!

As Cave pointed out as well, 11.5.3.8 specifies enclosure or some other protection

[jocal505]

Black wire is AC return. It completes the circuit; returns power from the white wire.
...
I can not speak with any real authority on the interpretation of the National Electric Code.
...
You also need to keep in mind that these statements may not be completely accurate.

Yow!

"May not?" Only those last two sentences are accurate. The first is wildly inaccurate. And dangerous, if somebody should proceed on the assumption it's correct.

The black wire in AC residential and commercial wiring is NOT "return."

In U.S. residential/commercial 208VAC or 240VAC circuits, black and white are simply L1 and L2., respectively. On 120VAC branch circuits, black and white are "hot" and "neutral," respectively.

The concept of a "return wire" in AC is essentially meaningless.

This thing with AC circuits using black for either L1 or "hot" is said to be the reason that ABYC specified yellow as an alternate DC ground wire colour in boats.

As an aside: Neutral is not ground and ground is not neutral, despite the fact the two may be at the same potential.

Jim

Or maybe the other way around?

Great discussion. Not that I caught all of it.


I do a lot of house wiring as a cabinet installer and I manage stay out of trouble. 220v? No problem.
Wired my first three-way at age 13, can get knob-and-tube cables to drive a 3 way on the first effort.
No dummy here, you'd think, but I totally fail to get the therory parts.

I just think of electrons passing from the black wires (hot) to elsewhere.

I can never get it why all the white wires (commons? neutrals?) seem to return electrons to the panel box), but can be found in the panel box strapped down on the same bus as all the ground wires. And thus, strapped to the grounding rod, to mother earth. The neutrals seem to be directly connected to grounds.

DC auto wiring uses a "chassis ground." Same thing as a house and the earth?
Where does the current circuit return, if it does?
While we are touching this subject, could someone please explain this for dummies?

[Cavelamb]

Reading through this thread has got me thinking that in this case the best solution is to hire a legitimate licensed and bonded electrician for this job. No offense to Sons, who possess a disproportionate amount of the worlds talent but not everything is DIY.

I'd be real surprised if a licensed bonded certified electrician would even touch a boat project.

Advise, maybe.

But there are questions and concerns here that never arise ashore.
Like galvanic corrosion, electrical bonding of metal parts, etc

Any volunteers?

[amro]

Reading through this thread has got me thinking that in this case the best solution is to hire a legitimate licensed and bonded electrician for this job. No offense to Sons, who possess a disproportionate amount of the worlds talent but not everything is DIY.

I'd be real surprised if a licensed bonded certified electrician would even touch a boat project.

Advise, maybe.

But there are questions and concerns here that never arise ashore.
Like galvanic corrosion, electrical bonding of metal parts, etc

Any volunteers?

Licensed electricians touch boats all the time. Despite the marine field being mainly unregulated, companies prefer to hire qualified electricians. Many guys i work with have done their entire apprenticeship in marine. They are great on boats but can't understand commercial/industrial/residential methods. As a commercial electrician i found it easy to switch to marine.


Things like bonding and isolation come up in commercial, just in different ways. Even guys with years in marine say it's a guessing game.

[Soñadora]

Black wire is AC return. It completes the circuit; returns power from the white wire.
...
I can not speak with any real authority on the interpretation of the National Electric Code.
...
You also need to keep in mind that these statements may not be completely accurate.

Yow!

"May not?" Only those last two sentences are accurate. The first is wildly inaccurate. And dangerous, if somebody should proceed on the assumption it's correct.

The black wire in AC residential and commercial wiring is NOT "return."

In U.S. residential/commercial 208VAC or 240VAC circuits, black and white are simply L1 and L2., respectively. On 120VAC branch circuits, black and white are "hot" and "neutral," respectively.

The concept of a "return wire" in AC is essentially meaningless.

This thing with AC circuits using black for either L1 or "hot" is said to be the reason that ABYC specified yellow as an alternate DC ground wire colour in boats.

As an aside: Neutral is not ground and ground is not neutral, despite the fact the two may be at the same potential.

Jim

Or maybe the other way around?

Great discussion. Not that I caught all of it.


I do a lot of house wiring as a cabinet installer and I manage stay out of trouble. 220v? No problem.
Wired my first three-way at age 13, can get knob-and-tube cables to drive a 3 way on the first effort.
No dummy here, you'd think, but I totally fail to get the therory parts.

I just think of electrons passing from the black wires (hot) to elsewhere.

I can never get it why all the white wires (commons? neutrals?) seem to return electrons to the panel box), but can be found in the panel box strapped down on the same bus as all the ground wires. And thus, strapped to the grounding rod, to mother earth. The neutrals seem to be directly connected to grounds.

DC auto wiring uses a "chassis ground." Same thing as a house and the earth?
Where does the current circuit return, if it does?
While we are touching this subject, could someone please explain this for dummies?

In a car, I don't think DC is returned to 'earth' (as in the planet).

DC is pretty easy for me to understand. I just think of it in terms of plumbing (and when I think of plumbing I think of electrical, weird like that)

All DC is like any of the typical basic DC circuits you've always seen with a power source (battery) a zero resistance medium (wires) and a resistance (ex. lightbulb). If you think of electrons, all you have to do is think of electrons going 'downhill' from highest potential to lowest (pos to neg). The resistance acts as a traffic cop, keeping the flow of electrons from moving at such a high rate (current) that it approaches the speed of light or some such theoretical stuff.

There's an interesting article on short circuits on Wikipedia

Why all the focus on short circuits? Because ultimately, that's what we're trying to manage. All circuits can be considered 'short circuits', it's just that they are 'shorting' through some sort of impedence or resistance.

Where it gets goofy for me is how AC works. Since it's a 'wave' of electricity that alternates (the 'A' in AC) from pos, to zero, to negative. So the electric potential is chaging rapidly. The 'hill' is changing up and down at 60 cycles a second in (the U.S).

In that regard, you can't think of AC as pos/neg since it's changing all the time. So really, in theory there isn't a 'hot' and 'neutral'. I think those terms are used in order to give us a point of reference when wiring. The ground is there in case something shorts out and it needs a place to go since neither the 'hot' nor 'neutral' is a ground.

I think Moon's point is that all of this is a bit silly since the only electrical stuff we really need is a battery and some switches. A switch to start the engine and other switches for stuff like lights and radio.

In my case, I'm a tinkerer and I find electrical things fun and interesting. Took apart an electric alarm clock with a screwdriver when I was 3. The clock was still plugged in when I took it apart. I was kid #5, so they didn't watch me all that much.

[jerryj2me]

http://www.marinco.c...ater'sGuide.pdf

See page 19 in the above document.

[Maine Sail]

There has been so much misinformation in this thread, as related to boat wiring, I would not even know where to begin.

On boats in the US the AC green/Earth is tied to the DC/ships ground, which in most cases is the engine block. This is for SAFETY reasons and anyone re-wiring AC power would be very, very wise to follow the ABYC standards on this.

AC white/neutral and green/earth ground are NEVER tied together on a boat unless at an on-board "source" such as a genset or inverter.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I see dropped neutrals or dropped AC grounds in marinas. The AC/DC ground tie provides the safety needed for these situations.

[Soñadora]

1341796773[/url]' post='3779347']
There has been so much misinformation in this thread, as related to boat wiring, I would not even know where to begin.

On boats in the US the AC green/Earth is tied to the DC/ships ground, which in most cases is the engine block. This is for SAFETY reasons and anyone re-wiring AC power would be very, very wise to follow the ABYC standards on this.

AC white/neutral and green/earth ground are NEVER tied together on a boat unless at an on-board "source" such as a genset or inverter.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I see dropped neutrals or dropped AC grounds in marinas. The AC/DC ground tie provides the safety needed for these situations.

That's the third or fourth time someone has claimed 'misinformation' in this thread. I have not seen anything contrary to what you just stated. Please site references.

[Whisper]

1341796773[/url]' post='3779347']
There has been so much misinformation in this thread, as related to boat wiring, I would not even know where to begin.

On boats in the US the AC green/Earth is tied to the DC/ships ground, which in most cases is the engine block. This is for SAFETY reasons and anyone re-wiring AC power would be very, very wise to follow the ABYC standards on this.

AC white/neutral and green/earth ground are NEVER tied together on a boat unless at an on-board "source" such as a genset or inverter.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I see dropped neutrals or dropped AC grounds in marinas. The AC/DC ground tie provides the safety needed for these situations.

That's the third or fourth time someone has claimed 'misinformation' in this thread. I have not seen anything contrary to what you just stated. Please site references.

Again, this will result in death. Everyone who has challenged MaineSail has either died, or will die before the 22nd century. You're courting disaster, Sons.

[Soñadora]

There has been so much misinformation in this thread, as related to boat wiring, I would not even know where to begin.

On boats in the US the AC green/Earth is tied to the DC/ships ground, which in most cases is the engine block. This is for SAFETY reasons and anyone re-wiring AC power would be very, very wise to follow the ABYC standards on this.

AC white/neutral and green/earth ground are NEVER tied together on a boat unless at an on-board "source" such as a genset or inverter.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I see dropped neutrals or dropped AC grounds in marinas. The AC/DC ground tie provides the safety needed for these situations.

That's the third or fourth time someone has claimed 'misinformation' in this thread. I have not seen anything contrary to what you just stated. Please site references.

Again, this will result in death. Everyone who has challenged MaineSail has either died, or will die before the 22nd century. You're courting disaster, Sons.

but, but...I thought I had a choice between cake or death

[Ishmael]

There has been so much misinformation in this thread, as related to boat wiring, I would not even know where to begin.

On boats in the US the AC green/Earth is tied to the DC/ships ground, which in most cases is the engine block. This is for SAFETY reasons and anyone re-wiring AC power would be very, very wise to follow the ABYC standards on this.

AC white/neutral and green/earth ground are NEVER tied together on a boat unless at an on-board "source" such as a genset or inverter.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I see dropped neutrals or dropped AC grounds in marinas. The AC/DC ground tie provides the safety needed for these situations.

That's the third or fourth time someone has claimed 'misinformation' in this thread. I have not seen anything contrary to what you just stated. Please site references.

Again, this will result in death. Everyone who has challenged MaineSail has either died, or will die before the 22nd century. You're courting disaster, Sons.

but, but...I thought I had a choice between cake or death

Nope. Everyone gets death {Option B}. Trick is to get as many pieces of cake before Option B happens.

[Soñadora]

xpost from my thread in CA

Started working on the panel last night.

 007 (Medium).jpg   149.75K   38 downloads

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

[SEMIJim]

There has been so much misinformation in this thread, as related to boat wiring, I would not even know where to begin.

Scary, isn't it?

From what I've seen on boats and in their vicinity, I'm coming to the conclusion that sailors and electrical wiring are generally a bad mix (With exceptions, of course.)

On boats in the US the AC green/Earth is tied to the DC/ships ground, which in most cases is the engine block. This is for SAFETY reasons and anyone re-wiring AC power would be very, very wise to follow the ABYC standards on this.

For both safety and insurance reasons, I would think.

AC white/neutral and green/earth ground are NEVER tied together on a boat unless at an on-board "source" such as a genset or inverter.

More accurately: Earth/safety ground (green or green with yellow stripe) and neutral are not ever supposed to be tied together at a load end. For the purposes of this discussion: The entire boat is the "load," from the perspective of the distribution system.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I see dropped neutrals or dropped AC grounds in marinas. The AC/DC ground tie provides the safety needed for these situations.

Providing the AC earth ground actually ties back to earth ground.

I have twice encountered situations (one in a marine environment, one not) where, due to contributory mistakes, "ground" was actually energized. The only reason nobody was electrocuted and nothing burned down was by sheer luck.

(Then there was the outdoor outlet at my new-to-me-at-the-time home, with hot and neutral reversed...)

Disclaimer, for the sake of completeness: I am not a licensed electrician, nor do I play one on TV.

Jim

[Soñadora]

There has been so much misinformation in this thread, as related to boat wiring, I would not even know where to begin.

Scary, isn't it?

Still waiting to see where 'misinformation' is in this thread. To my knowledge:

- No one has proposed wiring neutral and ground together.
- No one has proposed switching hot/neutral in the AC circuit

And there have been numerous references to ABYC. Have you guys even RTFT?

And of course, no one here is proposing anyone is accountable or liable for information in this thread. If we want to venture off into political territory, a friend of mine once said we need to institute the 'fuck you' court.

"Oh, you wired ground to neutral and killed some swimmers in the water and now you want to blame some guys on the internet for giving you wrong information? Fuck you. Go to jail."

Some of you guys need to maybe up your medication. All I was asking about in the O.P. was some clarification from information I've gathered (from ABYC and elsewhere) on how the fucking green wire should be attached. I appreciate the folks like Cave and even Moon for at least attempting to help point me in the right direction for clarification.

Sure, I could fork out a few grand to have some guys wire my boat. Then I'll be forever wondering if they got it right.

[xyzzy]

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Hate to break it to you, but there is a mistake in the AC main breaker. You're supposed to have a double breaker for the AC main. One side switches the hot (black) and the other switches neutral (white). The ground (green) isn't switched. The two breakers are joined so they trigger at once. Should look like this


IIRC, you need to have this within 10' of cable from the shore power inlet and use 10 ga wire from the inlet to the breaker. I believe the reverse polarity indication is also a requirement.

[Soñadora]

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Hate to break it to you, but there is a mistake in the AC main breaker. You're supposed to have a double breaker for the AC main. One side switches the hot (black) and the other switches neutral (white). The ground (green) isn't switched. The two breakers are joined so they trigger at once. Should look like this


IIRC, you need to have this within 10' of cable from the shore power inlet and use 10 ga wire from the inlet to the breaker. I believe the reverse polarity indication is also a requirement.

Hate to break it to you, but not all DPDT AC Main breakers have two switches on the face.



You can't see the back of the breaker, but there are 4 lugs, 2 for hot and 2 for neutral with individual breakers internally for both and reverse polarity indication is also there, just not in the image.

[Whisper]

xpost from my thread in CA

Started working on the panel last night.

 007 (Medium).jpg   149.75K   38 downloads

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Very cool. My new panel is sitting in my dining room waiting for me to find a drill press so I can make a zillion little beveled screw holes and 5/8" switch holes.

How are you cutting out the rectangular A/C master hole? And what are you using to paint the lines between DC and AC sections?

Here's what mine will look like, with any luck:

 Distribution Panel.AC.pdf   326.62K   18 downloads

[Cavelamb]

xpost from my thread in CA

Started working on the panel last night.

 007 (Medium).jpg   149.75K   38 downloads

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Very cool. My new panel is sitting in my dining room waiting for me to find a drill press so I can make a zillion little beveled screw holes and 5/8" switch holes.

How are you cutting out the rectangular A/C master hole? And what are you using to paint the lines between DC and AC sections?

Here's what mine will look like, with any luck:

 Distribution Panel.AC.pdf   326.62K   18 downloads

Sons is into photo-realistic computer modeling - in a BIG way.

That's not a real drill press, or real swarf.
It's just a drawing.




If he were doing it for real he'd be using a step bit for a much cleaner cut.
(hint hint)

[Soñadora]

xpost from my thread in CA

Started working on the panel last night.

 007 (Medium).jpg   149.75K   38 downloads

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Very cool. My new panel is sitting in my dining room waiting for me to find a drill press so I can make a zillion little beveled screw holes and 5/8" switch holes.

How are you cutting out the rectangular A/C master hole? And what are you using to paint the lines between DC and AC sections?

Here's what mine will look like, with any luck:

 Distribution Panel.AC.pdf   326.62K   18 downloads

Sons is into photo-realistic computer modeling - in a BIG way.

That's not a real drill press, or real swarf.
It's just a drawing.




If he were doing it for real he'd be using a step bit for a much cleaner cut.
(hint hint)

ha!

Couldn't find a step bit that had enough depth. Not to self, if you ever do this again, go with a wee bit thinner material. I don't remember the actual material I ordered, but it's about 1/32 too thick. Luckily, the 5/8" hole has enough clearance for the switch to throw. The #8 cbore and 5/8" bit do a fine job. I really love working with aluminum.

By the way, you guys're slow. I said "not all DPDT AC Main breakers have two switches"

Well, I went to the gym over lunch and while my fat ass was sweating all over the treadmill, I realized I had it wrong and that one of you wankers was going to call me out.

but you didn't

sure ALL DPDT breakers have two switches. Double-Pole Double-Throw
I should have said DPST - Double-Pole Single-Throw.

my bad

and BTW, I do show how that DPST is wired in one of the renderings. Further proof that SA'ers have 0 attention span.

xpost from my thread in CA

Started working on the panel last night.

 007 (Medium).jpg   149.75K   38 downloads

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Very cool. My new panel is sitting in my dining room waiting for me to find a drill press so I can make a zillion little beveled screw holes and 5/8" switch holes.

How are you cutting out the rectangular A/C master hole? And what are you using to paint the lines between DC and AC sections?

Here's what mine will look like, with any luck:

 Distribution Panel.AC.pdf   326.62K   18 downloads

Whisper,

I'm not using a rectangular switch, that was just an example of DPST breaker. My breaker is as shown on the panel.

But, I did have to make a rectangular cutout for the remote battery monitor. I used a jigsaw. It was a bit of a bitch. I imagine a router bit with a jig would have done a better job. As it is, the monitor fits fine and the cover plate covers up my drunken cut.

[Whisper]

xpost from my thread in CA

Started working on the panel last night.

 007 (Medium).jpg   149.75K   38 downloads

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Very cool. My new panel is sitting in my dining room waiting for me to find a drill press so I can make a zillion little beveled screw holes and 5/8" switch holes.

How are you cutting out the rectangular A/C master hole? And what are you using to paint the lines between DC and AC sections?

Here's what mine will look like, with any luck:

 Distribution Panel.AC.pdf   326.62K   18 downloads

Sons is into photo-realistic computer modeling - in a BIG way.

That's not a real drill press, or real swarf.
It's just a drawing.




If he were doing it for real he'd be using a step bit for a much cleaner cut.
(hint hint)

ha!

Couldn't find a step bit that had enough depth. Not to self, if you ever do this again, go with a wee bit thinner material. I don't remember the actual material I ordered, but it's about 1/32 too thick. Luckily, the 5/8" hole has enough clearance for the switch to throw. The #8 cbore and 5/8" bit do a fine job. I really love working with aluminum.

By the way, you guys're slow. I said "not all DPDT AC Main breakers have two switches"

Well, I went to the gym over lunch and while my fat ass was sweating all over the treadmill, I realized I had it wrong and that one of you wankers was going to call me out.

but you didn't

sure ALL DPDT breakers have two switches. Double-Pole Double-Throw
I should have said DPST - Double-Pole Single-Throw.

my bad

and BTW, I do show how that DPST is wired in one of the renderings. Further proof that SA'ers have 0 attention span.

Ok, Mr. Attention Span, still waiting for answers to MY questions!

Edit: Oops, my bad.

[xyzzy]

Hate to break it to you, but not all DPDT AC Main breakers have two switches on the face.



You can't see the back of the breaker, but there are 4 lugs, 2 for hot and 2 for neutral with individual breakers internally for both and reverse polarity indication is also there, just not in the image.

Geeze, who does your model pictures? That breaker looks nothing like the one in the pics! Totally amateur. My sketches are totally realistic down to the pitch of the screw threads.

[Cavelamb]

There has been so much misinformation in this thread, as related to boat wiring, I would not even know where to begin.

On boats in the US the AC green/Earth is tied to the DC/ships ground, which in most cases is the engine block. This is for SAFETY reasons and anyone re-wiring AC power would be very, very wise to follow the ABYC standards on this.

AC white/neutral and green/earth ground are NEVER tied together on a boat unless at an on-board "source" such as a genset or inverter.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I see dropped neutrals or dropped AC grounds in marinas. The AC/DC ground tie provides the safety needed for these situations.

That's the third or fourth time someone has claimed 'misinformation' in this thread. I have not seen anything contrary to what you just stated. Please site references.

Mea culpa.

I called black and white backwards (refering to source and return).
Jim called me on it - for backwardsheadedness and the source/return nonsense)
It's AC. It goes back and forth. So source and return change 60 times a seconf (in Texas any way)

But as long as we're not attaching black to white (or vice versa)...

[Soñadora]

xpost from my thread in CA

Started working on the panel last night.

 007 (Medium).jpg   149.75K   38 downloads

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Very cool. My new panel is sitting in my dining room waiting for me to find a drill press so I can make a zillion little beveled screw holes and 5/8" switch holes.

How are you cutting out the rectangular A/C master hole? And what are you using to paint the lines between DC and AC sections?

Here's what mine will look like, with any luck:

 Distribution Panel.AC.pdf   326.62K   18 downloads

Sons is into photo-realistic computer modeling - in a BIG way.

That's not a real drill press, or real swarf.
It's just a drawing.




If he were doing it for real he'd be using a step bit for a much cleaner cut.
(hint hint)

ha!

Couldn't find a step bit that had enough depth. Not to self, if you ever do this again, go with a wee bit thinner material. I don't remember the actual material I ordered, but it's about 1/32 too thick. Luckily, the 5/8" hole has enough clearance for the switch to throw. The #8 cbore and 5/8" bit do a fine job. I really love working with aluminum.

By the way, you guys're slow. I said "not all DPDT AC Main breakers have two switches"

Well, I went to the gym over lunch and while my fat ass was sweating all over the treadmill, I realized I had it wrong and that one of you wankers was going to call me out.

but you didn't

sure ALL DPDT breakers have two switches. Double-Pole Double-Throw
I should have said DPST - Double-Pole Single-Throw.

my bad

and BTW, I do show how that DPST is wired in one of the renderings. Further proof that SA'ers have 0 attention span.

Ok, Mr. Attention Span, still waiting for answers to MY questions!

Edit: Oops, my bad.

haha...EDIT FTW

[Soñadora]

Mea culpa.

I called black and white backwards (refering to source and return).

you did? totally missed that.

[Whisper]

xpost from my thread in CA

Started working on the panel last night.

 007 (Medium).jpg   149.75K   38 downloads

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Are you drilling through a paper template? Or are you making hamburger out of your nice hunk of aluminum?

Anybody have tips on how I can make my panel prettier than Son's? I have a 1/8" sheet of black anodized aluminum already cut to size. I just need to make lots of round holes, and one rectangular one (that will have visible edges).

[Cavelamb]

Mea culpa.

I called black and white backwards (refering to source and return).

you did? totally missed that.

See that's the whole problem thinking AC - no source, no return.

But L1/L2 aren't all that helpful for people thinking goez-inna and comes-outta.


It seems like you got the jist of it tho.

And the original question was about the protective AC ground and neutral.

xpost from my thread in CA

Started working on the panel last night.

 007 (Medium).jpg   149.75K   38 downloads

what it will look like when completed (I hope)

 panel2 (Medium).jpg   53.15K   33 downloads

Are you drilling through a paper template? Or are you making hamburger out of your nice hunk of aluminum?

Anybody have tips on how I can make my panel prettier than Son's? I have a 1/8" sheet of black anodized aluminum already cut to size. I just need to make lots of round holes, and one rectangular one (that will have visible edges).

Uhm, step drill?

[Soñadora]

drilling right through the paper template. The holes look great, actually. Cutting through the face, the back side has some slag I need to grind off, but that's no biggie. Fresh bits and a drill press drills through this stuff like buttah. I think you're getting confused thinking all that slag stuff around the hole is aluminum. It's not. It's just paper.

I thought about getting this anodized after I cut through it. You'll need to think about that. You anodized before cutting now you'll have shiny, exposed aluminum. Instead of anodizing, I'm going to try painting flat black. The panel will be coverd with a decorative door. Considering its location, there shouldn't be any threat to the paint. If it turns out that it get's all f'd up with scratches, I'll have to disassemble and get it anodized. No biggie. I'm just running out of time here and don't want to drop another $50 to have a part anodized.

I'll should have a nice picture of the finished product tonight.

As for the square hole, A router is probably your best bet, altough I'm not sure how you'll get the corners cut. That's always confused me with routers. You can also try using a multitool, but I'm guessing that too would look sort of butchered. Dr. Google turned up an image of a guy using an air hammer and chisel among other things. That might work.

[Whisper]

Yeah, after my initial gagging reflex, I realized it was paper and thought you were building a hamster cage.

You're right about the anodizing. I'll either touch up the holes with a black sharpie, or have it anodized again.

The panel was free about a year ago--got it from a fabricator my fiance does $zillions of business with --he makes her custom fixtures for retail stores she designs. Hell, now that I have the drilling pattern done, I should hand it back to him and see if he would turn it into a finished product!

[xyzzy]

If the square hole is large enough, cut the initial hole with a plunge cutting blade on an oscillating tool. Then slip a hack-saw blade in the slot that made and cut the rest of the side out with the hacksaw. You don't need a frame, just wear gloves and cut on the pull stroke.

[Soñadora]

Hell, now that I have the drilling pattern done, I should hand it back to him and see if he would turn it into a finished product!

is what I'm sayin'! always leverage your friends! I wouldn't be anywhere if I didn't freeload off'n others.

If the square hole is large enough, cut the initial hole with a plunge cutting blade on an oscillating tool. Then slip a hack-saw blade in the slot that made and cut the rest of the side out with the hacksaw. You don't need a frame, just wear gloves and cut on the pull stroke.

That's probably how I should have done it. Even if you have a stop for the jigsaw, the blad wobbles too much to make a straight cut.

[Whisper]

Thanks for the tips, guys!

As for leveraging friends? Hell yeah! 100 percent of my legal work in the past 8 years has been pro bono work for freeloadin' friends of friends!

Hell, I could have probably commissioned Catari if I had charged for my work :/

[Whisper]

I've been on serious pain pills because I shattered a couple toes this weekend. In my stupor, I dragged the thread off topic--I apologize.

To set things straight, I'll share my holiday themed schematics: green and red together. And for the John Belushi Bad News Bees effect, black and yellow together. I usually have to pay special holiday rates to my insurance co, tho.

[Soñadora]

I've been on serious pain pills because I shattered a couple toes this weekend. In my stupor, I dragged the thread off topic--I apologize.

To set things straight, I'll share my holiday themed schematics: green and red together. And for the John Belushi Bad News Bees effect, black and yellow together. I usually have to pay special holiday rates to my insurance co, tho.

errmmm..ok

So here's the final product. I put a brush finish on it but I need to finish it. Will be painted black.

Attached Files

•  100_8833_1.JPG   183.5K   16 downloads
•  100_8835_1.jpg   300.62K   14 downloads

[Moonduster]

I gotta say I really don't understand why someone would spend hours and hours drilling holes and then spray paint a panel like this when there's scads of places that will provide free software and send you a perfectly machined panel - fully anodized, complete with engraved and painted "labels" - at really reasonable prices. I've had really good results with these guys - and there are plenty more.

Isn't the idea to go sailing?

[Soñadora]

I gotta say I really don't understand why someone would spend hours and hours drilling holes and then spray paint a panel like this when there's scads of places that will provide free software and send you a perfectly machined panel - fully anodized, complete with engraved and painted "labels" - at really reasonable prices. I've had really good results with these guys - and there are plenty more.

Isn't the idea to go sailing?

I thought I mentioned earlier, but I did get a quote. NewMar quoted $900 for a custom panel. No thanks. Not sure what the guys in your link would quote, but it will most likely be 5x what I paid (I paid about $60).

Sure, I'd love to go sailing. But my boat is not going anywhere and this is something I wanted to get done.

I gotta say, I really don't understand why someone doesn't understand when a man wants to try to do something new and learn something instead of just forking out dough to have someone do it for them.

[Whisper]

I gotta say I really don't understand why someone would spend hours and hours drilling holes and then spray paint a panel like this when there's scads of places that will provide free software and send you a perfectly machined panel - fully anodized, complete with engraved and painted "labels" - at really reasonable prices. I've had really good results with these guys - and there are plenty more.

Isn't the idea to go sailing?

How reasonable???

There's a reason a year has passed since I acquired my aluminum sheet and it's still not in place. First, I took my time noodling my needs; and second, I've been sailing!!! But also, I need access to a drill press, and I'm a little intimidated by my square hole. And I need to buy more breakers, and a galvanic isolator, snd battery charger, and maybe inverter, etc.

But my old panel is crap and unsafe (I never plug into shore power for a reason).

But hell, if there is an inexpensive place that will make holes and labels, and eliminate a couple obstacles....

[Soñadora]

I've been playing around with this. It's pretty cool, despite the fact that Moon seems to be a social dunce.

The panel I drew up would be about $150 all-in.

Moon, here's a tip. Instead of pretty much calling folks idiots with your attitude, how about being a bit more helpful. No one likes a know-it-all.

That's a good site. Would have been nice to know about it sooner.

[Soñadora]

Definitely need to play around with this. Looks like it can take a DXF file import, so I should be able to bring the design I made right into the program.

[Cavelamb]

I gotta say, I really don't understand why someone doesn't understand when a man wants to try to do something new and learn something instead of just forking out dough to have someone do it for them.

Copy that!
I get that attitude from people all the time.

I've never claimed to be an expert at any of this stuff.
But I do enjoy the work...

Working with mind (drawing, modeling, making patterns (that actually fit),
then working with hands to make the parts and bring it all together.


BTW, the panel looks great.
But aluminum that thick is gonna be a bitch to back-light!

[Moonduster]

Attitude? You must be joking. There was no attitude.

All I said is that I have no idea why someone would fart around with a drill press and a raw sheet of aluminum and then hand paint it. It was a sincere question. You think you can learn something drilling holes? Really? What on earth would that be? How to pull aluminum shavings out of your thumbs?

How about you stop being so insecure that you value your time at $0 per hour?

Really - there was no attitude in that original post.

[Soñadora]

1341919512[/url]' post='3780785']
Attitude? You must be joking. There was no attitude.

All I said is that I have no idea why someone would fart around with a drill press and a raw sheet of aluminum and then hand paint it. It was a sincere question. You think you can learn something drilling holes? Really? What on earth would that be? How to pull aluminum shavings out of your thumbs?

How about you stop being so insecure that you value your time at $0 per hour?

Really - there was no attitude in that original post.

Meh. I'm just pissed that I didn't know about that site sooner. Cave's got it right though. There is a certain satisfaction to seeing a project through to its end, even if you conclude it's a dead end. I get that some folks can't understand that it's more than just 'drilling holes'. Those folks seem more interested in the destination than the journey.
In any case, thanks for the link. I'm going to see how much of my current layout I cam get into this program. Without countersinks, it's around $100. That seems pretty reasonable.

[SEMIJim]

Moon, here's a tip. Instead of pretty much calling folks idiots with your attitude, how about being a bit more helpful. No one likes a know-it-all.

I detected no "idiots" attitude from his comments, nor a know-it-all attitude.

Thanks for the tip, Moon. For years I've been wanting to replace the DC panel on Abracadabra, but nobody makes one that's just right. They're all either too big (and expensive) or too small.

Jim

[Soñadora]

Moon, here's a tip. Instead of pretty much calling folks idiots with your attitude, how about being a bit more helpful. No one likes a know-it-all.

I detected no "idiots" attitude from his comments, nor a know-it-all attitude.

'idiots' attitude:

I gotta say I really don't understand why someone would spend hours and hours drilling holes and then spray paint a panel like this when there's scads of places that will provide free software and send you a perfectly machined panel - fully anodized, complete with engraved and painted "labels" - at really reasonable prices. I've had really good results with these guys - and there are plenty more.

Isn't the idea to go sailing?

vs. just being helpful

There's scads of places that will provide free software and send you a perfectly machined panel - fully anodized, complete with engraved and painted "labels" - at really reasonable prices. I've had really good results with these guys - and there are plenty more.

Whether or not you understand why I do something is a personal issue. Keep it to yourself.

And yes, the idea is to go sailing. I've been working my ass off with the boat on the hard for almost two years toward that goal. Have I done everything perfectly? Hardly. In fact, I would be hard pressed to find anything I've done to be 'perfect'. And I've made a lot of mistakes and many of them have cost me a buck or two. But I have a great deal of satisfaction in what I've accomplished single-handedly (well, there were the guys who helped put up the tent and one of my daughters helped me sand the deck).

now I'm just sounding whiney. As mentioned, the info was appreciated. I should have asked around before doing this. This is the first (and probably last) panel I'll ever make so if I have to scrap my first effort then so be it. I'm not afraid of making a mistake. Remember the guy who never tried anything. Nothing happened.

[Cavelamb]

Attitude? You must be joking. There was no attitude.

All I said is that I have no idea why someone would fart around with a drill press and a raw sheet of aluminum and then hand paint it. It was a sincere question. You think you can learn something drilling holes? Really? What on earth would that be? How to pull aluminum shavings out of your thumbs?

How about you stop being so insecure that you value your time at $0 per hour?

Really - there was no attitude in that original post.

If you can read the above and still claim no attitude, then ok, you win.

Sons built his panel for a small fraction of the original quote.
An hour or so in the shop produced something that is quite valuable.
That's not $0.

That beyond the satisfaction of making a useful thing in a fraction of the time it would take to send it out.
And for a faction of the cost.

If that's not worth the time and effort to you then ok it's not.
For you.

For us, it is.

[Whisper]

HTFU, everyone!

Now where is that link? It's not showing on my iPhone!

[tommays]

I deeply regret building my own bicycles because i could have bought one at the bike shop



learning how to paint was compleat stupidy and the welding skills never came in handy again TILL i bought the CAL



I don't feel bad about waterjeting the cover



I will bow my head in sorrow about welding on the sides



It was also clearly insane to weld up the new mast step as i could have also paid somebody

[SEMIJim]

HTFU, everyone!

Indeed. 2nd time today I've had cause to wonder if I was on the site I thought I was.

Soñadora, *shrug* I still don't see his comment as "idiots" attitude. I'm taking them at face value: His expressing bewilderment as to why anybody would go to the trouble you are when you could have a custom panel made to your specs for a nominal fee.

Whatever.

I'm glad he posted. I wasn't aware places existed that would do that kind of thing that economically.

Jim

[Soñadora]

HTFU, everyone!

agreed

I wasn't aware places existed that would do that kind of thing that economically.

Neither was I. Obviously. Despite the assumption that apparently everyone else but you and me and Cave knows stuff like this exists.

So I went to DIY school again for the low tuition of $60 on my home-made panel. I may still stick with it, but Front Panel Express seems promising.

I've been playing around with that Front Panel Express software thingy. I was able to import the work I've done. It was a bit convoluted though. No direct DXF/DWG import. At least not easily. You have to convert it to HPGL first. Good luck trying to do that on Windows 7. There is a DXF import for 'macros', but it kept wanting to import it as a cut rather than a trace.

Attached Files

•  main panel.jpg   332.52K   17 downloads

[Moonduster]

What was their quote for an anodized panel with painted engraving?

[Soñadora]

What was their quote for an anodized panel with painted engraving?

$160, panel as shown black anodized including shipping. The text and borders are engraved. I thought about having the labels engraved, but that's asking for trouble.

add $85 for 10 Carling Switch (OEM for BlueSeas) breakers then compare that to BlueSea 16 position panel or even a BlueSea custom panel and you're in for $1000.

The panel I designed can take 24 switches. Pretty sure I'll never need that many. Plus the location it's going in is a custom size (13 x 10)

And after looking around, I found another place that could do that same panel for a bit less.

[Soñadora]

Here's my revised 120v distribution

Anyone have any ideas where I can find an enclosure like this that doesn't cost $300?

Attached Files

•  120v Distribution-0000.jpg   189.73K   41 downloads

[Moonduster]

You don't show any dimensions so it's hard to be certain.

Look on digikey Boxes -> Bud Industries -> Polycarbonate and then find your size.

Bud's part number PN 1341-C is plenty big and only costs US$37

[Soñadora]

You don't show any dimensions so it's hard to be certain.

Look on digikey Boxes -> Bud Industries -> Polycarbonate and then find your size.

Bud's part number PN 1341-C is plenty big and only costs US$37

excellent. Thanks!

[sailSAK]

automationdirect.com
alliedelec.com

AC junction box looks good.
I would change the engine ground. That should go direct to the DC system ground bus (for the sake of your starter, alternator and sanity. I bet if you read your engine manual it goes even further and states the engine ground should go direct to a battery do not pass go.) Unless you have some sort of lighting protection system or bonding there should only be one negative going to the engine, only one going to the AC ground etc. Do not use your engine as a ground bus or DC negative bus. The AC ground should be tied to either the DC bus OR the engine block but not both, and you only need 10 AWG wire for this connection.

[tommays]

I do not understand the hot from panel terminal strip as all the AC should leave the panel and go directly to what is being supplied ?

[Soñadora]

I do not understand the hot from panel terminal strip as all the AC should leave the panel and go directly to what is being supplied ?

Take a look at the back of the panel:

http://forums.sailin...dpost&p=3778349

Each 'hot' is individually run from the corresponding breaker.

[tommays]

I try and keep the connections outside the pannel area direct as its a lot more places to have to look for problems in the future

[Soñadora]

Show off

[Soñadora]

Sorry Slow, I only just now saw your response


looking at this image:





I should have a 'grounding bus' that has a connection to the battery and a connection to the engine. I would then run a single wire to the DC grounding distribution bus. The Green AC ground wire then goes to that DC grounding distribution buss, correct? Could it go to a secondary buss which is then in-turn connected to the DC grounding distribution buss?


And since I have two battery banks, both battery negatives would connect to this bus, correct?

[Soñadora]

Sorry if this seems like I'm beating a dead horse, but I really want to understand this. Though I said I would only post in CA from now on, I feel there's a more interested audience here.

Attached is my latest attempt. I think I have it right, but I just need to understand a little more about how the main grounding bus or engine negative terminal bus or engine grounding bus, etc (I've seen it called all of these things) works. Does this bus need to be able to take the entire starting load? Everything I've read about the negative battery side states that the neg wire can be smaller than pos. Is there any documentation out there that can give me an idea as to how much smaller? I realize the loads are engine specific, but I will say that the P.O. had installed 1/0 cables from battery + to the starting circuit. But I think this may also have had something to do with the inverter they installed (but never hooked up). I do not have an inverter and my DC side is pretty straightforward.

On another note, I ordered a panel from Front Panel Express. I owe you an apology, Moon, for my acting so whiney earlier. I really do appreciate all the feedback everyone has given here. It's helped immensely.

Attached Files

•  120v%20Power-0002.jpg   339.55K   22 downloads

[sailSAK]

hmmm.. 1/0 wire for a small boat engine is defiantly overkill. Maybe between battery banks but even then thats some heavy gauge stuff! With DC your pos and neg wires absolutely should be the same size. Current should be exactly the same in both wires. Your OCPD is installed at the positive wire (this is only due to convention/tradition- remember positive ground cars?) but it also protects your negative wire by opening the circuit should an excess current event occur. Your circuit breaker or fuse protects both the positive and negative wires. Typically for a small boat engine 4 gauge is completely sufficient. You would want larger only for longer cable runs (but both + and - same size). Where are you reading the negative can be smaller?

Not that it really matters electrically, but the wire connecting the DC ground to your AC ground bus would typically be 10 AWG. It is not a current carrying conductor and only needs to be able to carry full fault current for an instant. That current should be no more than 30 amps, or 50 amps for a larger boat. It probably will never see that in its lifetime, but in any event 10 AWG is all you need. Save you some $$$ and space. All this wire needs to do is connect to a 'main' ground bus that is directly connected to the engine and capable of handling fault current. If I were doing it I would connect to the main bus where the battery banks and the engine are connected. Leave your other DC negative bus bars for DC loads only. Use green wire all the way to the lug so that it is not accidentally disconnected during future troubleshooting DC loads or other mods.

[Soñadora]

Thanks Slow. That explanation clicked for some reason.

I think the 1/0 cable was used due to the 1000W Freedom (Xantrex) inverter the P.O. installed. I've removed the inverter, so now I have all this 1/0 cable lying around.

As for the different sizes of neg/pos wire, my mistake. I misread some documentation on my charger. Not to worry folks, nothing has been wired up yet. That's precisely why I'm here asking questions

Good point about the green wire to the lug (or at least the 'main grounding bus'). I'm not sure what sort of mounting options I have on the engine lug as it requires quite the contortions to get in there and look.

Also, if you notice I've drawn 2 fuses (not wired yet). I've read different opinions about this. It's not ABYC recommendation to have it in the starting circuit, but I've read suggestions to have one. Am I asking for trouble by having one in the starting circuit? Is it necessary? Without a fuse, what is there in the starting circuit for over current protection? I will be using a 3 position switch with an automatic charging relay (the same setup as the Add-A-Battery from Blue Sea). If I put a fuse in the house circuit, then I'd pretty much need one in the starting circuit since it would be possible to have the starting battery connect to the house circuit momentarily if I need to connect the banks.

[toddster]

Sorry I did not read the whole thread. Two comments, then back to work.

1. I do not understand your AC junction box. At this point, I would expect to see the branch circuit hot wires leading from circuit breakers that protect each individual branch. Not from a common bus. Presumably there is a main breaker up-stream somewhere that is protecting all of this. Until another breaker is encountered, all of the wires need to be large enough to handle loads up to the trip point of the main breaker.

2. The ground bus looks good. It should be as close to the engine block as is convenient, so that you have only a short run for the heavy primary cable. 4 gauge ought to be sufficient for a small boat, but ymmv. Currently I do not have one (pending next trip to the city) and all of the main grounds terminate on the engine block. It isn't pretty. I think Blue Sea makes a compact round terminal bus with a large stud in the middle for the big loads and smaller screws around it for misc. grounds. Since the AC ground only needs to handle brief short-circuit loads, I found it simplest to run a short green wire from the AC outlet nearest the engine. (There is 10 ga. boat cable feeding that outlet.)

[Soñadora]

Sorry I did not read the whole thread. Two comments, then back to work.

1. I do not understand your AC junction box. At this point, I would expect to see the branch circuit hot wires leading from circuit breakers that protect each individual branch. Not from a common bus. Presumably there is a main breaker up-stream somewhere that is protecting all of this. Until another breaker is encountered, all of the wires need to be large enough to handle loads up to the trip point of the main breaker.

2. The ground bus looks good. It should be as close to the engine block as is convenient, so that you have only a short run for the heavy primary cable. 4 gauge ought to be sufficient for a small boat, but ymmv. Currently I do not have one (pending next trip to the city) and all of the main grounds terminate on the engine block. It isn't pretty. I think Blue Sea makes a compact round terminal bus with a large stud in the middle for the big loads and smaller screws around it for misc. grounds. Since the AC ground only needs to handle brief short-circuit loads, I found it simplest to run a short green wire from the AC outlet nearest the engine. (There is 10 ga. boat cable feeding that outlet.)

Thanks Toddster

That's not a common bus for hot in the AC junction box. it is just a terminal strip. The reason I have all the wiring distribution here and not at the panel is that there is very little room behind the panel. The P.O. had crammed all their wiring back there and it was a MESS. So I am moving all the wiring down to this area below the nav seat. There are individual wires for all AC hot going to breakers in the panel. All the AC wire runs to the panel are in a different location than DC runs. And it's only a distance of about 2' from the distribution up to the panel.

I looked at the terminal stud, but I'd rather use a bus bar. Much cleaner than stacking wires.

[Whisper]

I fused my starting bank, and I'm glad I did! I blew that 200 amp fuse once in two years--as my wrench was being welded to a hot post on a solenoid.

(I had removed and replaced my injectors several times and during my final beer fueled reinstallation, I had forgotten to turn off the battery switch.)

That fuse might have saved my boat.

[Soñadora]

I fused my starting bank, and I'm glad I did! I blew that 200 amp fuse once in two years--as my wrench was being welded to a hot post on a solenoid.

(I had removed and replaced my injectors several times and during my final beer fueled reinstallation, I had forgotten to turn off the battery switch.)

That fuse might have saved my boat.

I guess that settles it then. DONE!

[toddster]

I see. I built all new cabinetry to hold the panels, with plenty of room behind, and still filled all the available space. One electrical system that I did not leave adequate room for, was the NMEA -0183 bus. It ended up requiring three terminal strips and a bunch of jumper wires to make and test the myriad (medusiad?) connections. Throw in an AIS unit, sea talk converter, antenna splitter - all small black boxes but with connectors radiating in all directions - it was enough to fill a small cabinet.


The only disadvantage to using a straight bus bar for the main ground is that the whole thing has to be beefy enough to handle the starter load, but only one wire really needs it.

Also, when making up those heavy gauge wires, I found that the tinned copper terminals they carry at WM are pretty much worthless. You can swage them down tight, but they will still pull out with a good yank. They seem to depend on added heat-shrink for any strain relief. The "lead" type lugs (or whatever they're made of) make much better connections.

[Whisper]

I see. I built all new cabinetry to hold the panels, with plenty of room behind, and still filled all the available space. One electrical system that I did not leave adequate room for, was the NMEA -0183 bus. It ended up requiring three terminal strips and a bunch of jumper wires to make and test the myriad (medusiad?) connections. Throw in an AIS unit, sea talk converter, antenna splitter - all small black boxes but with connectors radiating in all directions - it was enough to fill a small cabinet.


The only disadvantage to using a straight bus bar for the main ground is that the whole thing has to be beefy enough to handle the starter load, but only one wire really needs it.

Also, when making up those heavy gauge wires, I found that the tinned copper terminals they carry at WM are pretty much worthless. You can swage them down tight, but they will still pull out with a good yank. They seem to depend on added heat-shrink for any strain relief. The "lead" type lugs (or whatever they're made of) make much better connections.

Gotta use proper crimpers for the terminals--they work perfectly. The best is the FTZ lug crimper you can buy for around $200 at genuinedealz.com. I've also used Ancor's hammer crimper which gets the job done, but it creats a dimple instead of even compression.

[Soñadora]

I inherited an Ancor hammer crimper (use it in a vise). yeah, not pretty but seems to work ok. And considering I only have about 3-4 crimps to make, it would be tough to justify the FTZ crimper.

but I have to say, I don't mind having an inventory of cool tools.

[Maine Sail]

I found that the tinned copper terminals they carry at WM are pretty much worthless. You can swage them down tight, but they will still pull out with a good yank. They seem to depend on added heat-shrink for any strain relief. The "lead" type lugs (or whatever they're made of) make much better connections.

Not using the proper crimp tool..... Those terminals are often called "starter lugs" and are thinner walled than "power lugs" or the heavy duty version. I don't generally use anything Ancor when it comes to terminals but those CAN handle several hundreds of pounds of pull out force IF the right crimp tool is used. The ones you hit with a hammer are NOT proper crimp tools and a tool intended for "swaging" rigging is also the incorrect tool. You need a good battery lug crimper with dies properly sized for those lugs. The FTZ Industries tool covers those bases.

[toddster]

Not to hijack the thread, but all the "hammer tool" did was ruin a bunch of terminals. Bottom line is the "cheap" solutions offer false hope. For someone who is only going to make up 3 or 4 cables, the most cost effective solution may be to buy them made-up. If you can find anyone to do it. I was able to make some that couldn't be pulled off with the "heavy duty" terminals made from some softer metal.

[Whisper]

Like Sons, I used a vice to crimp with the hammer tool. It does work, and I have no concerns about the wire pulling out. But it's not pretty.

The FTZ is expensive if you're only making 4-6 crimps--but nobody makes only 4-6 crimps. You'll be adding equipment, moving things around, or working on another boat someday. Take the plunge and have another awesome tool to cherish!