Jump to content


AC/DC Ground


  • Please log in to reply
178 replies to this topic

#101 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:16 PM

A few other thoughts:

1- Yes, fuse the starter circuit. It is an ABYC "exception" to the rule not saying to not do it. With small sailboat aux engines there is no reason not to fuse these circuits. Just last week a customer called me while on a cruise. His starter button stuck and was keeping the solenoid engaged. He is very aware and shut down within seconds. If he was not so aware an engaged starter could have caused massive issues and the potential for a fire his starting battery is fused..

This customer was very happy I talked him into a starting circuit fuse:
Posted Image

This was what happened to one of our Yacht Clubs junior racing program boats. Just seconds before the battery cable erupted in flames there were four kids under 8 years old and a 17 year old instructor on-board. It almost burned our entire fleet of Opti's, our 420's and our docks. These boats all have fusing now.... Even the simplest boats can suffer dead shorts....
Posted Image


2- With boats and battery wiring my simple rule is the bigger the wire the better. I happened to be at the Landing School one day when Roger H., the systems instructor, was demonstrating the differences between battery cables on motor starting, voltage drop etc. etc.. It was an amazing demonstration of the differences between small and large battery cabling.

The smallest wire I will use on an inboard diesel is 1GA. The engines just start better and with less voltage drop to the starter. The "circuit" is the full length of all the battery cabling not just the + wires and some of these starters are loading the wire with 200+ amps of current... I have to remove far more starters for re-build on boats using 4GA battery cable than I do on boats using larger wire. I can't recall the last time I had a Sabre starter re-built (they used 1GA wire or larger) but I have done three Catalina's (4GA wire) and two O'day's (also 4GA wire) in the last three months. Catalina began using 1/0 wire back in the late 90's.. Cape Dory was also known for "dinky" wire and I have to get many of those starters re-built too. This is pretty typical. I find that boats wired with small wire chew through starters faster than the boats I work on with larger wire. It is enough so that I don't find it to be just happenstance. It also leaves you little room for adding inverters, windlasses or other high draw items when you have small battery cabling..

A recent CD-36 was tripping the windlass motor. The windlass wiring was the proper size but the rest of it was 4GA and of a pretty decent circuit length..... Re-wired the bank and battery wiring with 2/0 wire and the motor literally jumped to life and the windlass never again tripped. Owner actually asked if I had put a new starter on the Perkins 4-108 because the difference was that dramatic..... Most engine manufacturers want to see less than 3% voltage drop on the starting circuit because the batteries also "dip" when hit with the in-rush and starter loads. 4GA wire, even on a very short circuit, can be tough to hit 3% with. Even just a 12' circuit, a pretty common circuit length range on many boats, will yield a 5+% VD on 4GA wire. That same circuit with 1GA wire is 2.5% VD...

4GA can work but the circuit would need to be really short and you'd be limited in what you can add to it. Small wiring also makes fusing a bank for starting very tough without exceeding the wires max ampacity rating and accommodating starter loads at the same time. Larger wire has more benefits than just voltage drop...

#102 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:23 PM

Like Sons, I used a vice to crimp with the hammer tool. It does work, and I have no concerns about the wire pulling out. But it's not pretty.

The FTZ is expensive if you're only making 4-6 crimps--but nobody makes only 4-6 crimps. You'll be adding equipment, moving things around, or working on another boat someday. Take the plunge and have another awesome tool to cherish!


My FTZ has made literally thousands of lug crimps, about 35-40 just last week alone, and 90% of them with the heavy duty lugs. They are still going strong. I paid $150.00 for them from KL Jack in Portland, ME. May be slightly more now but should still be well under $200.00....

#103 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:19 PM

good stuff guys (and Maine) :P

I have a bunch of 1ga too.

As for the crimper, you guys are a bad influence.

#104 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 412 posts

Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:15 AM

Gotta use proper crimpers for the terminals--they work perfectly. The best is the FTZ lug crimper you can buy for around $200 at genuinedealz.com. I've also used Ancor's hammer crimper which gets the job done, but it creats a dimple instead of even compression.


genuinedealz will also crimp terminals on for you for $1 apiece. That's a lot of crimps before it was cheaper to get a $200 tool. Of course you have to measure your wire beforehand if they make the crimps. And you have to worry about the angle of the crimp on a wire as the big cables don't twist easily.

#105 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:11 AM

anyone try one of these lugs?

Posted Image
Could be handy on the end of a busbar if you have two connections on the stud.

#106 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:27 AM

anyone try one of these lugs?

Posted Image
Could be handy on the end of a busbar if you have two connections on the stud.


If you have two lugs on a buss bar flip one upside down and the other right side up.. They fit great... Never had a need for the 90 degree lugs....

#107 Cavelamb

Cavelamb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:36 AM

It's like deja vu all over again...

From back in January?

http://forums.sailin...pic=130443&st=0


:unsure:

#108 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:28 AM

1342488964[/url]' post='3788370']
It's like deja vu all over again...

From back in January?

http://forums.sailin...pic=130443&st=0


:unsure:


But, but, but...that had nothing to do with grounds specifically.
And...waitaminute...instead of drifting apart, this thread reached some sort of convergence. Maybe it means something. Posted Image

#109 Cavelamb

Cavelamb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 17 July 2012 - 04:54 AM


It's like deja vu all over again...

From back in January?

http://forums.sailin...pic=130443&st=0


:unsure:


But, but, but...that had nothing to do with grounds specifically.
And...waitaminute...instead of drifting apart, this thread reached some sort of convergence. Maybe it means something. Posted Image


LOL! Lord I hope so!

:P

#110 Whisper

Whisper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:43 AM


Like Sons, I used a vice to crimp with the hammer tool. It does work, and I have no concerns about the wire pulling out. But it's not pretty.

The FTZ is expensive if you're only making 4-6 crimps--but nobody makes only 4-6 crimps. You'll be adding equipment, moving things around, or working on another boat someday. Take the plunge and have another awesome tool to cherish!


My FTZ has made literally thousands of lug crimps, about 35-40 just last week alone, and 90% of them with the heavy duty lugs. They are still going strong. I paid $150.00 for them from KL Jack in Portland, ME. May be slightly more now but should still be well under $200.00....


KL Jack doesn't list them online. Genuinedealz now wants $231.xx. Haven't searched eBay lately.

But speaking of eBay, good wire can be had cheaply there. Tinned copper Ancor 4/0 for $6.99/ft., and 2/0 for $4.99/ ft. That's a bit better than Worst Marine.

#111 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:06 AM



Like Sons, I used a vice to crimp with the hammer tool. It does work, and I have no concerns about the wire pulling out. But it's not pretty.

The FTZ is expensive if you're only making 4-6 crimps--but nobody makes only 4-6 crimps. You'll be adding equipment, moving things around, or working on another boat someday. Take the plunge and have another awesome tool to cherish!


My FTZ has made literally thousands of lug crimps, about 35-40 just last week alone, and 90% of them with the heavy duty lugs. They are still going strong. I paid $150.00 for them from KL Jack in Portland, ME. May be slightly more now but should still be well under $200.00....


KL Jack doesn't list them online. Genuinedealz now wants $231.xx. Haven't searched eBay lately.

But speaking of eBay, good wire can be had cheaply there. Tinned copper Ancor 4/0 for $6.99/ft., and 2/0 for $4.99/ ft. That's a bit better than Worst Marine.


and if you look at the seller, it's our friends genuinedealz ;)

Here is my final iteration of my 120v layout. Still a bit of spaghetti at the bottom of the box, but hopefully I'll have that all sorted when I do the actual wiring.

Attached File  120v Power-0004 (Medium).jpg   79.56K   36 downloads

and this is the panel I should be getting from Front Panel Express either end of this week or early next week.
Still can't get over that service...

Attached File  panel4 (Medium).jpg   47.08K   32 downloads

#112 Whisper

Whisper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:31 AM




Like Sons, I used a vice to crimp with the hammer tool. It does work, and I have no concerns about the wire pulling out. But it's not pretty.

The FTZ is expensive if you're only making 4-6 crimps--but nobody makes only 4-6 crimps. You'll be adding equipment, moving things around, or working on another boat someday. Take the plunge and have another awesome tool to cherish!


My FTZ has made literally thousands of lug crimps, about 35-40 just last week alone, and 90% of them with the heavy duty lugs. They are still going strong. I paid $150.00 for them from KL Jack in Portland, ME. May be slightly more now but should still be well under $200.00....


KL Jack doesn't list them online. Genuinedealz now wants $231.xx. Haven't searched eBay lately.

But speaking of eBay, good wire can be had cheaply there. Tinned copper Ancor 4/0 for $6.99/ft., and 2/0 for $4.99/ ft. That's a bit better than Worst Marine.


and if you look at the seller, it's our friends genuinedealz ;)

Here is my final iteration of my 120v layout. Still a bit of spaghetti at the bottom of the box, but hopefully I'll have that all sorted when I do the actual wiring.

Attached File  120v Power-0004 (Medium).jpg   79.56K   36 downloads

and this is the panel I should be getting from Front Panel Express either end of this week or early next week.
Still can't get over that service...

Attached File  panel4 (Medium).jpg   47.08K   32 downloads


Not the guys I'm looking at. Genuinedealz was more expensive last time I checked, BabaBreath. Maybe they lowered their prices.

#113 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:13 PM

KL Jack doesn't list them online. Genuinedealz now wants $231.xx. Haven't searched eBay lately.

But speaking of eBay, good wire can be had cheaply there. Tinned copper Ancor 4/0 for $6.99/ft., and 2/0 for $4.99/ ft. That's a bit better than Worst Marine.



Sailboatowners.com has them for $182.21..

FTZ 94284 $182.21

KL Jack has them for $159.99 and they have six in stock. The KL Jack Part number is ET50116 and the manufacturer part number is 94284.

KL Jack FTZ 94284 Crimp Tool $159.99

#114 SEMIJim

SEMIJim

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location:S.E. MI, USA

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:27 PM

A few other thoughts:

1- Yes, fuse the starter circuit. It is an ABYC "exception" to the rule not saying to not do it.

Hmmm... Hadn't thought of that one.

There's some other stuff on Abracadabra that's not protected the way I'd like. I was thinking of getting one of the Blue Sea fuse blocks to address that. Do you have a preference? Abracadabra's OE switch panel has glass cartridge fuses, but I'm not averse to blade fuses.

This was what happened to one of our Yacht Clubs junior racing program boats. Just seconds before the battery cable erupted in flames ...

Funny, but in buying stuff to fix up Abracadabra's wiring, I'd completely forgotten that I wanted to fuse the batteries, themselves, with these:

Posted Image

What would you fuse the batteries at, considering either battery might be called-upon to start an A4? Saw one reference that claimed an A4's starter drew up to 150A, so... 175A for margin? I honestly could not tell you what size cables are on the batteries, but my guess is 4 AWG. Chart I referenced says 4 AWG "max current for chassis wiring" is 135A. That would imply I should use the 125A fuses. So...?

ETA: It turns out the fusing current (that's what I wanted to know, I just didn't know what the proper term was) of 4 AWG is in the vicinity of 1000A. (Up to 3kA in 32ms, by one formula). So I'm thinking the 175A fuse.

While we're on the subject: You mentioned in another thread, on another forum, that you like Blue Sea buss bars. Any one of their models, in particular? I'm liking the DualBus Plus, but I don't know as the other dual bus ones wouldn't suffice, and are probably less expensive.

Jim

#115 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:27 PM


A few other thoughts:

1- Yes, fuse the starter circuit. It is an ABYC "exception" to the rule not saying to not do it.

Hmmm... Hadn't thought of that one.

There's some other stuff on Abracadabra that's not protected the way I'd like. I was thinking of getting one of the Blue Sea fuse blocks to address that. Do you have a preference? Abracadabra's OE switch panel has glass cartridge fuses, but I'm not averse to blade fuses.

This was what happened to one of our Yacht Clubs junior racing program boats. Just seconds before the battery cable erupted in flames ...

Funny, but in buying stuff to fix up Abracadabra's wiring, I'd completely forgotten that I wanted to fuse the batteries, themselves, with these:

Posted Image

What would you fuse the batteries at, considering either battery might be called-upon to start an A4? Saw one reference that claimed an A4's starter drew up to 150A, so... 175A for margin? I honestly could not tell you what size cables are on the batteries, but my guess is 4 AWG. Chart I referenced says 4 AWG "max current for chassis wiring" is 135A. That would imply I should use the 125A fuses. So...?

ETA: It turns out the fusing current (that's what I wanted to know, I just didn't know what the proper term was) of 4 AWG is in the vicinity of 1000A. (Up to 3kA in 32ms, by one formula). So I'm thinking the 175A fuse.

While we're on the subject: You mentioned in another thread, on another forum, that you like Blue Sea buss bars. Any one of their models, in particular? I'm liking the DualBus Plus, but I don't know as the other dual bus ones wouldn't suffice, and are probably less expensive.

Jim


From what I've read on other forums, it doesn't hurt to be conservative with fusing when you start out. if you blow the fuse on starting (especially when cold), you know you need to go up to the next one :)

The requirements for the inverter installed by the p.o. on Soņadora was for a 200A fuse, and we never blew that. I'm installing 250A ANL fuses. Keep in mind the purpose of the fuse is simply to open the circuit in an overcurrent situation. As you mentioned, your 4 AWG can handle 1000A (depending on length). Imagine without a fuse, that wire would reach 1000A instantaneously. A 200A fuse will blow long before there's a risk of fire.

For the bus, I thought the p.o. had installed a high-current busbar, but that was actually a shunt and I won't be using that any more (selling it with the Freedom 15). So I ordered a 2127 Blue Sea Maxibus which is a 250A continuous busbar. It should never see 250A 'continuous'. And after reading about busbars, that figure is a bit misleading. The rating could be higher or lower. It's all about temperature. I'm guessing 250A has some margin of safety in it. At over 250A 'continuous', the bar will start to heat up and could cause a fire. But, the fuses will blow before that happens.

#116 Cavelamb

Cavelamb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:27 PM

[quote name='Soņadora' timestamp='1342515973' post='3788749']
[

Attached File  120v Power-0004 (Medium).jpg   79.56K   36 downloads

/quote]

Morning Sons,

I noticed those two fuses still floating around loose.
But as SJ (and others in the prior thread) pointed out, fuse the batteries AT the batteries.


Ta,

Richard

#117 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:32 PM

Not the guys I'm looking at. Genuinedealz was more expensive last time I checked, BabaBreath. Maybe they lowered their prices.



'bababreath' :lol:
are you saying I smell like teak dust and varnish?

and spill it, who is your eBay source. I found a guy named 'whitesmarine' selling 10' 8AWG for $18 including shipping.

#118 SEMIJim

SEMIJim

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location:S.E. MI, USA

Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:54 PM

From what I've read on other forums, it doesn't hurt to be conservative with fusing when you start out. if you blow the fuse on starting (especially when cold), you know you need to go up to the next one :)

I'm always conservative where electricity is concerned, but at $15/pop, in both senses of the word, I think 175A circuit protection is plenty conservative ;)

Jim

#119 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:55 PM




Attached File  120v Power-0004 (Medium).jpg   79.56K   36 downloads


Morning Sons,

I noticed those two fuses still floating around loose.
But as SJ (and others in the prior thread) pointed out, fuse the batteries AT the batteries.


Ta,

Richard



current plan is for those fuses to be in line between the battery and the selector switch. I have some left over 1/0 cable that I intend to use there unless it proves to be too unwieldy.

#120 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,601 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

Amazon.com Greenlee K05-1GL $177. This does hex shaped crimps, which I think are stronger than square. Bought one for work to terminate some 1/0 leads feeding a 100kW load dump, but used it on a few battery cables too. Used a couple of the cheap battery cable ends and they worked, but for a few cents more you get a pretty nice chunk of tinned copper. Seems like a legit tool. I've been using the anchor hammer tool (use big channel locks or vise) but now I have this strange feeling my West Marine lugs and 4AWG wire may not be sufficient.

#121 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 412 posts

Posted 17 July 2012 - 04:27 PM


I noticed those two fuses still floating around loose.
But as SJ (and others in the prior thread) pointed out, fuse the batteries AT the batteries.


current plan is for those fuses to be in line between the battery and the selector switch. I have some left over 1/0 cable that I intend to use there unless it proves to be too unwieldy.

Keep in mind that ABYC requires you to have the fuse within 7 inches of wire from the battery hot terminal. The terminal fuses that SEMIJim posted make it a lot easier to meet the requirement.

#122 toddster

toddster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts
  • Location:The Gorge

Posted 17 July 2012 - 04:37 PM


A few other thoughts:

1- Yes, fuse the starter circuit. It is an ABYC "exception" to the rule not saying to not do it.

Hmmm... Hadn't thought of that one.

There's some other stuff on Abracadabra that's not protected the way I'd like. I was thinking of getting one of the Blue Sea fuse blocks to address that. Do you have a preference? Abracadabra's OE switch panel has glass cartridge fuses, but I'm not averse to blade fuses.

This was what happened to one of our Yacht Clubs junior racing program boats. Just seconds before the battery cable erupted in flames ...

Funny, but in buying stuff to fix up Abracadabra's wiring, I'd completely forgotten that I wanted to fuse the batteries, themselves, with these:

Posted Image

What would you fuse the batteries at, considering either battery might be called-upon to start an A4? Saw one reference that claimed an A4's starter drew up to 150A, so... 175A for margin? I honestly could not tell you what size cables are on the batteries, but my guess is 4 AWG. Chart I referenced says 4 AWG "max current for chassis wiring" is 135A. That would imply I should use the 125A fuses. So...?

ETA: It turns out the fusing current (that's what I wanted to know, I just didn't know what the proper term was) of 4 AWG is in the vicinity of 1000A. (Up to 3kA in 32ms, by one formula). So I'm thinking the 175A fuse.

While we're on the subject: You mentioned in another thread, on another forum, that you like Blue Sea buss bars. Any one of their models, in particular? I'm liking the DualBus Plus, but I don't know as the other dual bus ones wouldn't suffice, and are probably less expensive.

Jim


I went with 200 amp fuses at the batteries. A quick search on my phone, while standing in the store suggested a typical A4 start of 130 amps, and conceivably there could be some house loads. Such was my reasoning anyway. It's not obvious from the pictures (to me) but these things raise the overall height of the battery by almost two inches. I had to do a slight re-design of the battery box. Fortunately the lid still fits on, but the clearance is pretty tight.

Incidentally, I had a battery cable short out on one of the tractors last spring, due to mouse nest buildup inside the cowling over the winter. Might have to buy some more of these.

#123 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:12 PM

Keep in mind that ABYC requires you to have the fuse within 7 inches of wire from the battery hot terminal. The terminal fuses that SEMIJim posted make it a lot easier to meet the requirement.


Good point. I like the convenience of the MRBF. I'm glad I keep coming in here. Didn't even know anything like this existed until SEMI posted it. Not sure if I'll have clearance. Will have to check.

#124 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:03 PM

I'm going to hijack my own thread. I tried the search feature but couldn't find the answer.

the p.o. built a POS battery box out of plywood. Actually, it wasn't bad until water leaked into the hatch and started rotting out the plywood. The other problem was that it didn't have a real secure tie down system. One knockdown and all those batteries would just fall out.

I may still go with a custom box, but considering my last 'custom' venture, I figured I'd ask first if anyone has any recommendations for 4 x 6V T105s. I've seen boxes from NOCO and Attwood, but couldn't see anything that would specificially work for 2 or 4 T105s.

#125 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:20 PM

From what I've read on other forums, it doesn't hurt to be conservative with fusing when you start out. if you blow the fuse on starting (especially when cold), you know you need to go up to the next one :)


This can get expensive...

When fusing starting circuits the biggest fuse the wires ampacity will handle is usually a good option. The last thing you want is a false trip. That said the trip delay curves on ANL, MRBF and Class T fuses get you well beyond the short duration in-rush.. You are allowed to go to 150% of the table below, if it is necessary. I much prefer to up size the wire and keep it at 100%..
Posted Image



You can read more about it here: Battery Fuse Sizing - How?

#126 Dancing Outlaw

Dancing Outlaw

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 114 posts
  • Location:Annapolis

Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:46 PM

I'm going to hijack my own thread. I tried the search feature but couldn't find the answer.

the p.o. built a POS battery box out of plywood. Actually, it wasn't bad until water leaked into the hatch and started rotting out the plywood. The other problem was that it didn't have a real secure tie down system. One knockdown and all those batteries would just fall out.

I may still go with a custom box, but considering my last 'custom' venture, I figured I'd ask first if anyone has any recommendations for 4 x 6V T105s. I've seen boxes from NOCO and Attwood, but couldn't see anything that would specificially work for 2 or 4 T105s.


Here you go.

http://www.allbatterysalesandservice.com/browse.cfm/2,619.html

#127 Whisper

Whisper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:11 AM

Sons,

I have a Noco HM-426, which is designed for two 6v. My T-145's fit perfectly. Also, I use the terminal fuses mentioned above, and there is plenty of clearance for them in the box. I intended to use 250a fuses, but went with 200a because that's all my Worst Marine had in stock.

The eBay wire dude is rsm1. For Ancor tinned copper, it's $6.99 for 4/0, $5.99 for 3/0, $4.99 for 2/0. Comes in red, black, or yellow. 25ft. minimum.

Maine Sail,

Thanks for the crimper links!

#128 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:39 AM


I'm going to hijack my own thread. I tried the search feature but couldn't find the answer.

the p.o. built a POS battery box out of plywood. Actually, it wasn't bad until water leaked into the hatch and started rotting out the plywood. The other problem was that it didn't have a real secure tie down system. One knockdown and all those batteries would just fall out.

I may still go with a custom box, but considering my last 'custom' venture, I figured I'd ask first if anyone has any recommendations for 4 x 6V T105s. I've seen boxes from NOCO and Attwood, but couldn't see anything that would specificially work for 2 or 4 T105s.


Here you go.

http://www.allbatterysalesandservice.com/browse.cfm/2,619.html


You can build a new box to fit exactly what and where you want. I find the best method is 3/4" exterior grade ply then drop it at your local Rhino Liner shop and for about $20.00 they will hit it with Rhino Liner when doing a truck bed. Tough to beat !!!

#129 Cavelamb

Cavelamb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:00 AM



Attached File  120v Power-0004 (Medium).jpg   79.56K   36 downloads


Morning Sons,

I noticed those two fuses still floating around loose.
But as SJ (and others in the prior thread) pointed out, fuse the batteries AT the batteries.


Ta,

Richard



current plan is for those fuses to be in line between the battery and the selector switch. I have some left over 1/0 cable that I intend to use there unless it proves to be too unwieldy.



Yeah, ok. So how much welding cable (1/0) does that leave un-fused???

(I'm pushing hard for the BlueSea type fuses that are located ON the battery terminals)

#130 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 18 July 2012 - 07:00 AM




Attached File  120v Power-0004 (Medium).jpg   79.56K   36 downloads


Morning Sons,

I noticed those two fuses still floating around loose.
But as SJ (and others in the prior thread) pointed out, fuse the batteries AT the batteries.


Ta,

Richard



current plan is for those fuses to be in line between the battery and the selector switch. I have some left over 1/0 cable that I intend to use there unless it proves to be too unwieldy.



Yeah, ok. So how much welding cable (1/0) does that leave un-fused???

(I'm pushing hard for the BlueSea type fuses that are located ON the battery terminals)


I ordered the on-the-battery fuses Whisper talked about. Starting with 200A. So, in the model those fuses will be gone next time you see it ;)

As for the battery box, the p.o. built a pretty nice box however they didn't consider how the thing would behave in a knockdown so I'd have to fix that problem. Plus, there was no drainage so any water that ended up in there sat there and caused a little bit of rot.

I'm running out of time to order a Noco box, but it will be put on the next list.

#131 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:51 PM

As for the battery box, the p.o. built a pretty nice box however they didn't consider how the thing would behave in a knockdown so I'd have to fix that problem. Plus, there was no drainage so any water that ended up in there sat there and caused a little bit of rot.

I'm running out of time to order a Noco box, but it will be put on the next list.



Battery boxes are NOT supposed to drain.... They are for containment of electrolyte/acid. They also need to be made of acid proof material... Bare wood is a bad choice for a battery box as battery acid softens and rots it pretty quickly.. If you have AGM batteries then you don't need containment, but with wets you do..

#132 SEMIJim

SEMIJim

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location:S.E. MI, USA

Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:39 PM

Based on MS' comments and the chart he provided, and SWAG on my part (I'll explain), I'm still thinking 175A fuses should be about right for me. That'll give me approximately 17% headroom over the alleged starter motor draw. The SWAG is regarding my battery cables. I'm going to assume the cables that were on the boat when we took possession are at least as good as the "Seafit 4 AWG Economy Battery Cable" I bought at WM to replace the too-short black one that had been in-place to jumper the two battery negatives together. WM's site contains no useful information regarding the insulation rating, but an Australian site asserts "Handles 160A (136A in engine spaces)." The 175A fuses would put me at under 130% of the cables' rating, again, assuming they're all of roughly equivalent capability.

Even if that's pushing the envelope a bit, in all honesty I cannot imagine a scenario that would result in sustained current draw above the cables' ratings, yet below the fuse limits.

Jim

#133 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:05 PM

Based on MS' comments and the chart he provided, and SWAG on my part (I'll explain), I'm still thinking 175A fuses should be about right for me. That'll give me approximately 17% headroom over the alleged starter motor draw. The SWAG is regarding my battery cables. I'm going to assume the cables that were on the boat when we took possession are at least as good as the "Seafit 4 AWG Economy Battery Cable" I bought at WM to replace the too-short black one that had been in-place to jumper the two battery negatives together. WM's site contains no useful information regarding the insulation rating, but an Australian site asserts "Handles 160A (136A in engine spaces)." The 175A fuses would put me at under 130% of the cables' rating, again, assuming they're all of roughly equivalent capability.

Even if that's pushing the envelope a bit, in all honesty I cannot imagine a scenario that would result in sustained current draw above the cables' ratings, yet below the fuse limits.

Jim


Jim
Sounds like a good strategy. Can't hurt anyway. If you blow the fuse you know you'll need to go higher and you should still have enough room if you went to 200 or 250.

Maine
I thought about what I had written about drainage then I remembered the battery in our 22'er. It froze one winter and cracked the case. When it thawed, all the acid leaked out. Luckily, it was in a battery box. So yes, I will be improving my battery box situation.

#134 tommays

tommays

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 906 posts
  • Location:Northport

Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:46 PM

MY A4 has done fine for two years with the bluesea battery post unit and 200 amp fuses

On a boat like the Cal 29 the batteries were always in the engine bay which is a full fiberglass unit and there is no place else on the boat with proper ventilation

I was NOT happy with the original hold downs and due to the tight space i had stainless straps bent that prevent movement even in a rollover

#135 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,601 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:19 PM

Back to the AC ground for a sec...
Just realized that I installed a Blue Sea VSM recently which put a current shunt into the system. Everything was tied to the battery negative bus bar, but now the engine is on the other side of the shunt. Didn't even think of the AC ground when I put this in... I'm not thinking it matters but does it?

Here is a not-nearly-as-impressive-as-sons picturized simplified schematic of my AC system. I made a very basic AC panel from a PVC outdoor enclosure. Just a main and two 15 amp circuits. There is an AC receptacle directly on the panel that serves the battery charger and block heater. The other circuit runs to a Xantrex Pro 1800 inverter which provides GFCI protection for the boat and serves the cabin outlets. I don't have the required reverse polarity indicator light, but did tether an "outlet tester" which I use every time I plug into an unfamiliar source (rare). I'm very interested in what you all can find wrong with this install!
Attached File  r30-AC.jpg   61.89K   33 downloads

#136 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:47 PM

Your schematic is just fine slow :)

Just curious, what are you using the shunt for? I think for grounding purposes, you should be ok. That's basically how my wiring will be set up (minus the shunt).

After all the help from guys like MaineSail and Moonduster I think I finally understand how all this works. You just want the most direct path to ground in the event something shorts out in the AC circuit. Does a shunt introduce any serious resistance to that?

Edit: nvmind, I see now what the shunt is for.

#137 SEMIJim

SEMIJim

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location:S.E. MI, USA

Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:27 PM

Well, I just ordered $80 worth of fuses and holders. Didn't really want to spend $80 that way, but the thought of one of those batteries getting shorted, and likely results, make it seem like cheap insurance.

Jim

#138 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:33 PM

Well, I just ordered $80 worth of fuses and holders. Didn't really want to spend $80 that way, but the thought of one of those batteries getting shorted, and likely results, make it seem like cheap insurance.

Jim



hell yeah! after those pics Maine Sail posted, I'm convinced.

#139 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:27 PM

ok, here's another dilemma...

the original cabin lights have dinky little 22ga wires to the bulb. TaShing used 10ga for source wires. Of course, the lights are wired in paralell, so there are two 10ga wires going to the 22ga source wire in the light. They were originally wired (at the yard I assume) with 3 ring terminals riveted together, soldered, then wrapped in tape. There's a lot of 'wrapped in tape' stuff on the boat and it drives me nuts. That's the kind of stuff I did when I got my first car. I'll never forget the day I shorted out the hot wire to my radio and it burned off all the insulation. The amount of smoke generated by 5 ft. of burning insulation is pretty amazing. Almost as amazing as how fast I got out of the car and ran.

Electrical tape is sticky at first, but that shit should be illegal for anything except Wendy O'Williams's nipples.

How can I get the two ends of the 10ga wire to connect to that single 22ga wire without getting elaborate with some kind of terminal block?

#140 SEMIJim

SEMIJim

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location:S.E. MI, USA

Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:15 PM

How can I get the two ends of the 10ga wire to connect to that single 22ga wire without getting elaborate with some kind of terminal block?

You could solder and heat-shrink-tube it, of course. If you know how to solder. Otherwise: Best not.

You could use these: FTZ Industries Step-Down Butt Splice connectors, but you'd have use the 16-14 -> 12-10 AWG ones, and double-over the 22 AWG - or maybe even fold it triple. Ugly.

I think you'd be best off with the quick disconnect (aka: "Faston") style connectors at the bottom of this page: http://www.terminalt...ges/Page14.html - Just buy the same size connector, but with 22 AWG barrels on one side and 10 AWG barrels on the other.

Now I'm off to go check out Wendy O. Williams' nipples...

Jim

#141 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:20 PM

Thought about quick disconnects, but I'd have to double up the 10ga wires into one connector which would mean I'd need an 8ga connector (I think) and I could not find such an animal.

you'll also want to google 'Plasmatics'.

#142 toddster

toddster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts
  • Location:The Gorge

Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:51 PM

Could you add a screw with a couple of nuts in or near the fixture to make a terminal stud?

Those tiny wires can be a PITA in crimp connectors. You can sometimes fold the stripped end back over the jacket and use the next size larger crimp, but be sure to test the connection. In the end for most of the very small gauge wires (e.g. stereo, radar) I butt spliced them by wrapping the stripped ends longitudinally, adding a drop of solder, and then shrink-wrapping. Especially if they were transitioning to a larger size.

Like this:

#143 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:06 AM

actually, you and I are on the same page. What I was thinking of doing was using small plastic washers with a piece of tubing around a screw

#144 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:53 AM

Back to the AC ground for a sec...
Just realized that I installed a Blue Sea VSM recently which put a current shunt into the system. Everything was tied to the battery negative bus bar, but now the engine is on the other side of the shunt. Didn't even think of the AC ground when I put this in... I'm not thinking it matters but does it?

Here is a not-nearly-as-impressive-as-sons picturized simplified schematic of my AC system. I made a very basic AC panel from a PVC outdoor enclosure. Just a main and two 15 amp circuits. There is an AC receptacle directly on the panel that serves the battery charger and block heater. The other circuit runs to a Xantrex Pro 1800 inverter which provides GFCI protection for the boat and serves the cabin outlets. I don't have the required reverse polarity indicator light, but did tether an "outlet tester" which I use every time I plug into an unfamiliar source (rare). I'm very interested in what you all can find wrong with this install!
Attached File  r30-AC.jpg   61.89K   33 downloads



Which bank are you trying to monitor with that shunt? There is little to no need to monitor a start battery but there is lots of need to monitor a house battery. If you are trying to monitor the house the shunt is wired incorrectly..

#145 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,601 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:02 AM

Which bank are you trying to monitor with that shunt? There is little to no need to monitor a start battery but there is lots of need to monitor a house battery. If you are trying to monitor the house the shunt is wired incorrectly..


No.. I caught that after I posted. It is in practice wired correctly and drawn wrong. Battery monitory is a must have. Can't believe I got along without one for so long!

#146 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:28 AM



Which bank are you trying to monitor with that shunt? There is little to no need to monitor a start battery but there is lots of need to monitor a house battery. If you are trying to monitor the house the shunt is wired incorrectly..


No.. I caught that after I posted. It is in practice wired correctly and drawn wrong. Battery monitory is a must have. Can't believe I got along without one for so long!



If this is monitoring the house bank then even the start battery needs to be on the "loads" side of the shunt.. The only thing on the house battery side of the shunt is the house battery neg post, or any parallel jumpers for other house bank batteries.

This pic shows a properly wired shunt and you can see all the loads are on the "load" side of the shunt. I only stress this because I correct shunt wiring issues about twice per week......

Posted Image

P.S. Ignore the wing nuts. That pic was taken simply to show shunt wiring and it was in the middle of the re-wire with one of the old batteries still in place... Oh and please DON'T use wing nuts.. I recently had a "won't start" call that turned out to be the neg wire no longer on the battery post.... It also cooked the diodes in the alt when it finally vibrated off the post...

#147 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,601 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:46 AM

If this is monitoring the house bank then even the start battery needs to be on the "loads" side of the shunt.. The only thing on the house battery side of the shunt is the house battery neg post, or any parallel jumpers for other house bank batteries.


Wingnuts do suck... first thing I do is take them off and put them in my random nuts bin. I do like my "center pin" gold plated terminals, but got them for 4awg so now have to get rid of them to put in the 1/0. Guess my AC ground question was moot as I didn't have enough coffee this morning when I re-vamped my AC drawing to include the shunt and isolator. I did that a few years ago with a trial version of "Smart Draw." Updated with Viso. Not production grade but sure is nice to have some idea where the electrons are flowing throughout the boat. Should go down and verify everything while I'm at it. Maybe even labels... Nah...
Attached File  r30-AC2.jpg   58.59K   7 downloads

#148 Whisper

Whisper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:57 AM

Back to the AC ground for a sec...
Just realized that I installed a Blue Sea VSM recently which put a current shunt into the system. Everything was tied to the battery negative bus bar, but now the engine is on the other side of the shunt. Didn't even think of the AC ground when I put this in... I'm not thinking it matters but does it?

Here is a not-nearly-as-impressive-as-sons picturized simplified schematic of my AC system. I made a very basic AC panel from a PVC outdoor enclosure. Just a main and two 15 amp circuits. There is an AC receptacle directly on the panel that serves the battery charger and block heater. The other circuit runs to a Xantrex Pro 1800 inverter which provides GFCI protection for the boat and serves the cabin outlets. I don't have the required reverse polarity indicator light, but did tether an "outlet tester" which I use every time I plug into an unfamiliar source (rare). I'm very interested in what you all can find wrong with this install!
Attached File  r30-AC.jpg   61.89K   33 downloads


The diagram, and your system, sucks. Why? Because I'm having a difficult time seeing it all on my iPhone screen. When I get off the couch and venture over to the computer, I might reconsider. But only if there's beer left in the fridge when I make that trek.

#149 Whisper

Whisper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:02 AM

ok, here's another dilemma...

the original cabin lights have dinky little 22ga wires to the bulb. TaShing used 10ga for source wires. Of course, the lights are wired in paralell, so there are two 10ga wires going to the 22ga source wire in the light. They were originally wired (at the yard I assume) with 3 ring terminals riveted together, soldered, then wrapped in tape. There's a lot of 'wrapped in tape' stuff on the boat and it drives me nuts. That's the kind of stuff I did when I got my first car. I'll never forget the day I shorted out the hot wire to my radio and it burned off all the insulation. The amount of smoke generated by 5 ft. of burning insulation is pretty amazing. Almost as amazing as how fast I got out of the car and ran.

Electrical tape is sticky at first, but that shit should be illegal for anything except Wendy O'Williams's nipples.

How can I get the two ends of the 10ga wire to connect to that single 22ga wire without getting elaborate with some kind of terminal block?


Fucking A! You remember the original Wendy O!

3M makes step-down butt connectors. I have some on my eBay watch list. I'll send links if I leave this couch.

#150 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:24 AM

I re-vamped my AC drawing to include the shunt and isolator.
Attached File  r30-AC2.jpg   58.59K   7 downloads



Looks good...

#151 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,601 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:27 AM

ok, here's another dilemma...

the original cabin lights have dinky little 22ga wires to the bulb. TaShing used 10ga for source wires. Of course, the lights are wired in paralell, so there are two 10ga wires going to the 22ga source wire in the light.


What I would do in this situation (if re-wiring with appropriately sized wire wasn't a priority) is use standard 10-12 gauge butt connectors and just slip or stuff the 22 gauge in one end. If it doesn't fit I don't see any real harm in cutting a few strands from the 10 gauge to make it work, although this practice would no doubt raise hands from the starch pants and creased shirt crowd. You can actually calculate the reduced ampacity by the diameter of the copper you have left if you so desire. In this case select a circuit breaker based on the total circuit draw. More correctly it should be based on 22gauge wire ampacity. One of my pet peeves is over wiring. You don't use 3/4" wire for your shrouds so why would you use 10 gauge wire for a 3 amp circuit?

#152 Whisper

Whisper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 04:48 AM


ok, here's another dilemma...

the original cabin lights have dinky little 22ga wires to the bulb. TaShing used 10ga for source wires. Of course, the lights are wired in paralell, so there are two 10ga wires going to the 22ga source wire in the light.


What I would do in this situation (if re-wiring with appropriately sized wire wasn't a priority) is use standard 10-12 gauge butt connectors and just slip or stuff the 22 gauge in one end. If it doesn't fit I don't see any real harm in cutting a few strands from the 10 gauge to make it work, although this practice would no doubt raise hands from the starch pants and creased shirt crowd. You can actually calculate the reduced ampacity by the diameter of the copper you have left if you so desire. In this case select a circuit breaker based on the total circuit draw. More correctly it should be based on 22gauge wire ampacity. One of my pet peeves is over wiring. You don't use 3/4" wire for your shrouds so why would you use 10 gauge wire for a 3 amp circuit?

I don't starch my shorts, tee shirts, or flipflops. Nor do I use bridge cables for standing rigging. But I always use the largest electrical wires that fit, and that I can afford. Voltage drop offends me. So does burning insulation.

#153 Cavelamb

Cavelamb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 19 July 2012 - 04:54 AM

Posted Image

P.S. Ignore the wing nuts. That pic was taken simply to show shunt wiring and it was in the middle of the re-wire with one of the old batteries still in place... Oh and please DON'T use wing nuts.. I recently had a "won't start" call that turned out to be the neg wire no longer on the battery post.... It also cooked the diodes in the alt when it finally vibrated off the post...



I was about to comment on how sweet that installation looked - then I noticed who posted it...
Typical fine work, MS.

And thanks for all the info too!

Richard

#154 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:47 AM

One of my pet peeves is over wiring. You don't use 3/4" wire for your shrouds so why would you use 10 gauge wire for a 3 amp circuit?


22GA wire on any lighting fixture is a poor choice unless it can only ever take an LED bulb oe is an LED fixture. The reason for a 10 GA wire in lighting circuits is because they are wired in parallel with multiple fixtures in the circuit. Was working on a Tartan 4100 yesterday that has no less than 20+ lights on-board. That one is split into Port/Stbd circuits but still 10+ lights per circuit requires big wire over the distance traveled..

As for how to connect I prefer a 2 position bus bar at each fixture... I know the OP does not want to hear that but... Where a bus bar absolutely can't be used I will then sometimes use male female friction fit fully insulated connectors. The light fixture end would get a red terminal and the 10GA side gets yellow. A red fully insulated friction fit slides into a yellow fully insulated easily.

What confuses me is that he said this was a "Parallel" circuit which would require two wires in each yellow terminal and that's just not going to happen.. I still vote for t-strips to do it right..

#155 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 412 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:11 AM

Could replace the wire in the lights? It's probably not very good anyway. Put in something rated for the breaker you want to use, which could still be 12 ga instead of 10 ga, and then you can use a triple butt connector.

If you have a lot of lights in parallel, you could get a fuse box. Like this:
Posted Image


You can run 10 ga to the fuse box, then from there run 16 or 18 to each light. But locations of the the lights probably lend themselves to wiring along chain rather then one run to each light.

#156 SEMIJim

SEMIJim

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location:S.E. MI, USA

Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:24 PM

... please DON'T use wing nuts.. I recently had a "won't start" call that turned out to be the neg wire no longer on the battery post.... It also cooked the diodes in the alt when it finally vibrated off the post...

That's another thing I need to address on Abracadabra. I never have trusted them, so I've always tightened them down by hand, then put an adjustable open-end wrench on one of the wings and snugged them down a bit. This is one of the things that I'm finally going to fix.

The two threaded battery posts are different sizes, are they not? (Looks it up...) Yeah: 3/8-16 for the positive and 5/16-18 for the negative. I'll check out HD's stainless selection on the way home this evening.

They use some interesting lock-washers, here at work. Smooth on one side, radial ridges on the other. They're cupped (ridges on the convex surface). The tech that showed them to me said they lock and hold far better than traditional split washers. Thing is: They're an odd colour. Kind of a dark grey anodizing, it looks like. I asked him about corrosion resistance and he indicated we've never had a problem with them in that respect. Then again: Our stuff doesn't go in a marine environment--or any environment where water, or even high moisture levels, is typical.

ETA: Found out what they are. They're called "Belleville" washers, or simply "bell" washers. Aka: "coned-disc spring," "conical spring washer," "disc spring," "Belleville spring" or "cupped spring washer."

Jim

#157 Maine Sail

Maine Sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:49 PM

The two threaded battery posts are different sizes, are they not? (Looks it up...) Yeah: 3/8-16 for the positive and 5/16-18 for the negative. I'll check out HD's stainless selection on the way home this evening.



Yes on many older batteries the + post is 3/8" and the - is 5/16". Many newer batteries are coming through as 5/16" for both + & - .....

And hey thanks for reminding me I need to pick up another box of 5/16" nuts....

You should not place a SS washer in the connection path. It is ok to place one directly under the nut but not between terminals... Also the highest load terminal goes on the bottom and you work up to the smaller loads..


These SS washers are placed on top of the blue 14-16GA rings to preven them from being destroyed during tightening but never placed under them...


Posted Image



Also neg is connected to one end of the bank and pos to the other!!!


Like this...
Posted Image

Not like this...
Posted Image

#158 SEMIJim

SEMIJim

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location:S.E. MI, USA

Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:02 PM

Are those stainless nylock nuts you're using, Maine? And, yes, I would naturally hook cables/wires up, highest-load on bottom, lightest on the top, and not place stainless washers between ring terminals.

Jim

#159 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,601 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

A few of these little LED fixtures I have picked up have leads coming out that are built in to the package... no chance in upgrading those wire leads! Personally I have been about 85% satisfied with the G4 LED bulb replacement. Nice thing is when it goes you just replace the bulb, not the fixture and don't mess with the wiring. Understand 10 gauge for 10 to 20 conventional cabin light fixtures. I imagine the yard bought two or three sizes of wire and thats what everything got. Back in the day where all your cabin lights could draw 30 amps 10 gauge was probably a little on the small side! For an owner refit, I think it is wise to just size the wire based on the circuit load and voltage drop you are looking for. If you're letting the smoke out yer doin it wrong...

That is a nice battery install! Are you able to get a cover over those? I gave up trying, but would sure feel better with some sort of lid.
How about this wiring method?
Attached File  BAT.jpg   12.07K   0 downloads
I went from the 1-2-both battery system to a combiner so I paralleled my existing two house bats in this manner. Was going to replace them and upgrade the wire but they are doing a lot better together than when they were separate 'banks' so have left them alone.

#160 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:30 PM

What confuses me is that he said this was a "Parallel" circuit which would require two wires in each yellow terminal and that's just not going to happen.. I still vote for t-strips to do it right..


yep, that's what 'he' (I) said ;). And yes, they are wired in paralell. And yes, what you mentioned about two wires in each yellow not happening is exactly my dilemma. I considerd a terminal strip, but I don't think there will be room betwen the headliner and the ceiling. These lights are the traditional dome lights and currently have incandescent bulbs but will be replaced with LED bulbs. They were originally wired with a 'fore' circuit and 'aft' circuit, but I will be wiring these into one circuit. We rarely use the dome lights and instead use our accent and reading lights. I have a spool of 2-12 duplex wire that I had considered wiring all the lights with, but seeing as TaShing installed all the wiring then built the furniture around it, there are spots where I would not be able to fish a tape through. So I'm sticking with the original wiring scheme.

I also considered the spade plugs, but I still have the dilemma of wiring two 10ga wires into one terminal. The way TaShing did it, they riveted three ring terminals together then wrapped them in tape. Didn't even look like electrical tape. The P.O. tried to 'improve' the wiring in spots by soldering it all together and wrapping with Wendy O tape.

Oh, and the p.o. also decided that rather than use zip ties or some other retainer to hold the wires together, blue 3M painter's tape would do just fine spaced every 3 ". What is this fucking fascination with tape?!

I was at the boat until 3 a.m. rewiring the builge pump, pressure pump, fridge, and nav light wiring. Both the p.o. and TaShing are to blame for the crappy wiring. The runs were mostly hung loose and the stuff that was retained, was retained at the lowest point on the bulkhead which meant that any filth and muck that accumulated down there in the bilge also accumulated around those wires. The wiring to the bilge pump was so brittle it cracked when I bent it. All of that has been rewired now with 2-12 and retained up high out of the bilge and away from shafts, steering quadrant, etc. There was a couple runs where the wiring went through the engine compartment which is totally baffling since first the wires went in under the aft lockers then into the engine compartment and back out under the opposite locker.

My batteries are dual 6V in two banks, so I don't have the parallel issue to worry about. I used to have a 1-2-Both switch, but I have changed that to the On-Off-Combine (or whatever) using an Automatic Charging Relay. This keeps starting and house banks separate but still allows the alternator to charge both banks. With the old switch, we were pretty good at keeping track of the battery switch position, but at least twice the switch was set to Both and almost drained both banks. With this switch, you only turn on the house bank. If the starting bank needs a boost, you can switch to the Combine which will put the two banks in parallel.

The P.O. had wired the batteries in such a way that in order to charge both banks with the charger, you had to have the battery switch set to Both (found that out the hard way). The new charger has separate leads for each bank, so I don't have to wire the charger through the switch.

By the way MS, I really do appreciate all the great info you've provided. In fact, this thread has turned into one of the most helpful items I've come across during this refit. You've all helped immensely.
Apologies if I seemed a bit brash at first.



#161 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:44 PM

I imagine the yard bought two or three sizes of wire and thats what everything got. Back in the day where all your cabin lights could draw 30 amps 10 gauge was probably a little on the small side!


No doubt they bought in bulk. And I would question whether it was even 'marine grade' wiring. It's definitely not tinned. The interesting thing is that they had all wire runs in different color combinations (except for ground which is either black or black/white stripe).

Even with it not being tinned and the fact that for 'retainers' they used bent nails, I've never had any issues with the original wiring in the boat.

Another question, what is good to use for bundling the wires? TaShing used spiral wrap and at first I cursed it, but after using it a bit I really like it. If you need to pull a wire out, it's easy to snake it through the spiral. I thought about split loom, but that just seems as though it wouldn't retain as well.

#162 Cavelamb

Cavelamb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 19 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

Could replace the wire in the lights? It's probably not very good anyway. Put in something rated for the breaker you want to use, which could still be 12 ga instead of 10 ga, and then you can use a triple butt connector.

If you have a lot of lights in parallel, you could get a fuse box. Like this:
Posted Image


You can run 10 ga to the fuse box, then from there run 16 or 18 to each light. But locations of the the lights probably lend themselves to wiring along chain rather then one run to each light.


These fuse blocks are what I used (except mine are 6 position) when adding my indirect LED cabin lighting.
Three circuits for each side of the cabin.

I found 1 amp mini-blade fuses at Granger. (gray body)


The switch boxes that I made work fine, but in the end I discovered that I'd prefer a more built-in appearance.
So when we are back in the water I'll attack that again.
That cabinet will easily relocate 4 inches farther forward to make the perfect location for the switch panel.

http://www.home.eart...ss/cablight.htm

#163 toddster

toddster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts
  • Location:The Gorge

Posted 19 July 2012 - 05:21 PM

Not just light fixtures, but I'm disturbed by the number of relatively high-power devices, such as radios, that come with 22 or 24 gauge power leads. I guess they must know what they're doing though. I replaced the old cabin light fixtures entirely with LEDs, but the nav lights got LED replacement bulbs. I figured the wires still needed to be large enough to support the loads in case someone were to put incandescent bulbs back into those fixtures, for some reason.

Incidentally, the original wires in my Ericson were mostly embedded in the fiberglass! They emerge right out of the hull. The rest were stapled to the underside of the deck with bronze staples in neat razor-straight runs. I bundled new cables with cable-tie loops spaced about 1 foot apart. Easy to thread new ones through. Originally used the adhesive-backed zip-tie supports, but as soon as the weather got hot, they started falling off. Not just off the hull, but the adhesive separated from the plastic mount. Posted Image Now replacing them with screwed-on loops.

#164 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:35 PM

Could replace the wire in the lights? It's probably not very good anyway. Put in something rated for the breaker you want to use, which could still be 12 ga instead of 10 ga, and then you can use a triple butt connector.

If you have a lot of lights in parallel, you could get a fuse box. Like this:
Posted Image


You can run 10 ga to the fuse box, then from there run 16 or 18 to each light. But locations of the the lights probably lend themselves to wiring along chain rather then one run to each light.



since the lights are on their own breaker, adding fuses would be redundant. Take the fuses off and we're back to using a terminal strip as MS suggested.

My original plan was for each light to have it's own 2-12 running to it and back to a terminal strip and I purchased enough 2-12 to do the job. But it's just going to be too much monkeying around. There are 6 dome lights that I need to wire.
I've got some things I'm going to try. Here, hold my beer...

and a Wendy O story.
in 1981 I was living in Houston. KLOL was the kickass rock station at the time. On my way home from school one day, they announced a 'prize winner' on the radio. The prize? A new TV set delivered by The Plasmatics. On air, they went to the guy's house. Told him that he won. He was pretty excited, until he noticed Wendy O was carrying a baseball bat. She proceeded to smash the hell out of the guy's old TV. It only took a few seconds for the announcer guy to calm the dude down.

I guess he didn't realize that was part of the gig B)

#165 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 412 posts

Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:34 PM

since the lights are on their own breaker, adding fuses would be redundant. Take the fuses off and we're back to using a terminal strip as MS suggested.

The point of the fuses is it lets you use smaller gauge wire. The breaker needs to be sized to not trip when powering all the lights on the run. The wire then needs to be big enough to have a higher ampacity than the breaker. Sounds like this means you need 10ga wire. You run the 10 ga to the fuse block where you have 2 amp fuses or something like that. Now you can run 16 ga to the lights, since you only need 2 amps of ampacity in the wire. If you do the math, you'd be fine with 20 to 22 ga for LED lights, but ABYC says the minimum is 16 ga. I think if use use duplex wire (normal 20-2 wire) you get an exception to the 16 ga rule. There's one for < 1 amp for electronics that could apply too.

So run the 10 ga to a good spot, then run 20 ga from there to each light. Probably more wire inches than going from one light to the next in a chain with 10 ga. But maybe you use less copper overall with the 10/20 star configuration? And no 3-way splices.

#166 Cavelamb

Cavelamb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:29 AM


since the lights are on their own breaker, adding fuses would be redundant. Take the fuses off and we're back to using a terminal strip as MS suggested.


The point of the fuses is it lets you use smaller gauge wire. The breaker needs to be sized to not trip when powering all the lights on the run. The wire then needs to be big enough to have a higher ampacity than the breaker. Sounds like this means you need 10ga wire. You run the 10 ga to the fuse block where you have 2 amp fuses or something like that. Now you can run 16 ga to the lights, since you only need 2 amps of ampacity in the wire. If you do the math, you'd be fine with 20 to 22 ga for LED lights, but ABYC says the minimum is 16 ga. I think if use use duplex wire (normal 20-2 wire) you get an exception to the 16 ga rule. There's one for < 1 amp for electronics that could apply too.

So run the 10 ga to a good spot, then run 20 ga from there to each light. Probably more wire inches than going from one light to the next in a chain with 10 ga. But maybe you use less copper overall with the 10/20 star configuration? And no 3-way splices.



That plus preventing one circuit from bringing down the whole house of cards!
Like I said back up thread, 1 amp mini-blades from Granger (for about a buck a pop though).
Protect that 20 gauge wiring...

#167 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 20 July 2012 - 07:31 AM

fuck it. :angry:
I'm tired of thinking about it. I'm just going to solder the mess up and put shrink tube around it. I know "no solder on a boat!". At least, I was trying to keep it that way, but everything else is just too much fucking around for lights we turn on 3 times a year. If one of those lights shorts out for some reason, it will trip the breaker. No need to worry about frying the wires. The breaker is going to protect them (as well as those fuses anyway). At least, that has been my first-hand experience. The only advantage I see with the fuses is that you'll know right away which light caused the problem. Otherwise without the fuse box I'll have to go through each one until I find the problem.

I have nowhere to put that fuse panel where it wouldn't be a PITA to run individual lines to each light.

#168 sailSAK

sailSAK

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,601 posts
  • Location:Seward

Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:40 PM

Hell yeah! Never seen a correctly made solder splice fail on a boat... Look up "Western Union" splice. A few times I have seen soldered wires snap off the back of toggle switches.

#169 Cavelamb

Cavelamb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:21 PM

Hell yeah! Never seen a correctly made solder splice fail on a boat... Look up "Western Union" splice. A few times I have seen soldered wires snap off the back of toggle switches.


+1 on Western Union.

#170 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:32 PM


Hell yeah! Never seen a correctly made solder splice fail on a boat... Look up "Western Union" splice. A few times I have seen soldered wires snap off the back of toggle switches.


+1 on Western Union.


That's how I've done it before. Only now I'll have an extra wire in there. Should still be the same procedure, though I've seen where you tie two wires together Western Union style then wrap the third separately around it. I think that makes it a little harder for the shrink tube to go around it.

#171 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,101 posts
  • Location:Slidell, LA

Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:49 PM


Hell yeah! Never seen a correctly made solder splice fail on a boat... Look up "Western Union" splice. A few times I have seen soldered wires snap off the back of toggle switches.


+1 on Western Union.


I've been making that solder joint for nearly thirty years and never knew it had a name.

I actually quit reading this thread a couple of weeks ago cause I couldn't figure how much discussion needed to go on about AC/DC ground. Didn't know it had evolved into a correct shipboard wiring practices chat. Have to go back and read the thoughts.

#172 SEMIJim

SEMIJim

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location:S.E. MI, USA

Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

Soņadora, did you say the 10 AWG wires were already emplaced?

Jim



#173 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:44 PM

Soņadora, did you say the 10 AWG wires were already emplaced?

Jim



yes, though they're about 95% exposed at the moment. The 5% is a showstopper though. I was going to replace all the wiring, but that little bit convinced me otherwise, It is in a section where they built the paneling and bulkhead around the wiring and there's no way to get a fish tape in there and there's no alternate route to take.

#174 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:47 PM



Hell yeah! Never seen a correctly made solder splice fail on a boat... Look up "Western Union" splice. A few times I have seen soldered wires snap off the back of toggle switches.


+1 on Western Union.


I've been making that solder joint for nearly thirty years and never knew it had a name.

I actually quit reading this thread a couple of weeks ago cause I couldn't figure how much discussion needed to go on about AC/DC ground. Didn't know it had evolved into a correct shipboard wiring practices chat. Have to go back and read the thoughts.



you must be new to interweb forums :P

Sorry, I'm guilty of the topic drift, but I've poluted fix it anarchy with enough electrical wiring threads already

#175 SEMIJim

SEMIJim

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location:S.E. MI, USA

Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:47 PM


Soņadora, did you say the 10 AWG wires were already emplaced?

Jim

yes, ...

Okay. Just confirming.

Jim

#176 Whisper

Whisper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:00 AM

fuck it. :angry:
I'm tired of thinking about it. I'm just going to solder the mess up and put shrink tube around it. I know "no solder on a boat!". At least, I was trying to keep it that way, but everything else is just too much fucking around for lights we turn on 3 times a year. If one of those lights shorts out for some reason, it will trip the breaker. No need to worry about frying the wires. The breaker is going to protect them (as well as those fuses anyway). At least, that has been my first-hand experience. The only advantage I see with the fuses is that you'll know right away which light caused the problem. Otherwise without the fuse box I'll have to go through each one until I find the problem.

I have nowhere to put that fuse panel where it wouldn't be a PITA to run individual lines to each light.


What are uou talking about??? Every bit of nautical electronics has been held together by solder since the metal age. Or was that the electronic age? Anyway, the morons who claim boat vibration is too much simply haven't worked on vintage guitar amplifiers with point-to-point wiring. If an 8-12 stack can blow your pantlegs onstage for 40 years, then the same type of connection can handle some diesel vibration in a boat. Just make good joints. It's not the medium, it's the skills of the joint roller.

#177 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:09 AM

Oh, I can roll a good joint. Just enough resin...

#178 Whisper

Whisper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:52 AM

Shhh, we call it ROSIN now.

#179 Soņadora

Soņadora

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:The Corn Coast, MN

Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:16 AM

oops, my bad.

what about jumpers on the terminal block. Bad idea?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users