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#101 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:45 PM

Fast race, eh? Natalie J kicking ass again....


According to YB they are going 13 knots faster than Equation. No radar reflex in the area...afterburners or glitch?

#102 zvikingz

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:49 PM


Fast race, eh? Natalie J kicking ass again....


According to YB they are going 13 knots faster than Equation. No radar reflex in the area...afterburners or glitch?



There have been funny readings like that here and there all day.

#103 coyotepup

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:54 PM

Looks like a couple of boats missed the provision about Ducks to starboard.

#104 C Hawk

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:32 PM

What did I miss? I checked in to see how Il Mastro was doing to see they never started! WTF? I thought they bought that boat specifically for this race.

#105 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:40 PM

other Mac, next weekend.

Il Mostro, not Il Mastro

#106 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:44 PM

From Joan Watton @ FB

Windquest IN!

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#107 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:48 PM

Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.

#108 C Hawk

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:48 PM

other Mac, next weekend.

Il Mostro, not Il Mastro


Two Macs? Figures. Thanks.

My head hurts.

#109 coyotepup

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:58 PM


Looks like a couple of boats missed the provision about Ducks to starboard.

It appears that someone woke up on one of them.

Nope, still leaving Great Duck to port.

#110 Great_lakes_racer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:06 AM

Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.

#111 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:51 AM


Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


To be fair, Equation has had a string of equipment failures (rudder last year, spreader in St. Martin, some memorable sail explosions) since her re-launch and she's not an easy boat to get up to speed. Rosebud was a full-time, full-pro program when she was winning everything, and it takes a massive effort to keep it going after an ownership change. Still, they'll get her going soon, I think.

Great to see US Carkeek40 #2 going so well. Bear, Shriner, and Guiness have all put a bunch of time in to get her ready and anyone who sails it will have an instant love affair. Good on 'em.

#112 isma

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:54 AM

Clean,
Any news on why Manitou stopped in Tobermory?

#113 Polaris

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:55 AM


Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


That's not a fair assessment, last year they had a broken rudder, this year they had tactics that had them out of the money. Both NJ and Windquest took huge flyers up to Port Austin before they headed fro Tobermory. Equation was on the rhumb line with a lighter backing breeze. I'm thinking that Windquest sailed a near perfect race and NJ just followed them online.

#114 Chris W

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 01:38 AM



Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


That's not a fair assessment, last year they had a broken rudder, this year they had tactics that had them out of the money. Both NJ and Windquest took huge flyers up to Port Austin before they headed fro Tobermory. Equation was on the rhumb line with a lighter backing breeze. I'm thinking that Windquest sailed a near perfect race and NJ just followed them online.


Your a fuckwit, Windquest jybed to cover Natalie J. NJ had a gameplan to hit the western shore before the race started. Well done Bora, Benj, Phil and team!

#115 Great_lakes_racer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 01:46 AM




Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


That's not a fair assessment, last year they had a broken rudder, this year they had tactics that had them out of the money. Both NJ and Windquest took huge flyers up to Port Austin before they headed fro Tobermory. Equation was on the rhumb line with a lighter backing breeze. I'm thinking that Windquest sailed a near perfect race and NJ just followed them online.


Your a fuckwit, Windquest jybed to cover Natalie J. NJ had a gameplan to hit the western shore before the race started. Well done Bora, Benj, Phil and team!



Christ, didn't mean to stir the pot, was unaware of the unfortunate things that have happened to Equation the last few years. She's a sexy boat and I do hope she can perform well in the "real" mac next week!

#116 Great_lakes_racer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 01:50 AM



Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


To be fair, Equation has had a string of equipment failures (rudder last year, spreader in St. Martin, some memorable sail explosions) since her re-launch and she's not an easy boat to get up to speed. Rosebud was a full-time, full-pro program when she was winning everything, and it takes a massive effort to keep it going after an ownership change. Still, they'll get her going soon, I think.

Great to see US Carkeek40 #2 going so well. Bear, Shriner, and Guiness have all put a bunch of time in to get her ready and anyone who sails it will have an instant love affair. Good on 'em.



Can't wait to see the carkeek 40 in Chicago next weekend. Hopefully they can hold on to beat most of the 70's boat for boat.. currently beating all but 2(Evolution, Stripes) on the tracker. I assume it must feel good to also beat his old boat(Denali N/M 68) not only corrected but also boat for boat... granted it's a MUCH different program now.

#117 Polaris

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:19 AM




Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


That's not a fair assessment, last year they had a broken rudder, this year they had tactics that had them out of the money. Both NJ and Windquest took huge flyers up to Port Austin before they headed fro Tobermory. Equation was on the rhumb line with a lighter backing breeze. I'm thinking that Windquest sailed a near perfect race and NJ just followed them online.


Your a fuckwit, Windquest jybed to cover Natalie J. NJ had a gameplan to hit the western shore before the race started. Well done Bora, Benj, Phil and team!


No need for a shitfight. This is a family program. Windquest did everything that NJ did, but better, they went further west past the thumb.. The second leg, it looks like all the big boys were following each others tracks. Maybe they were driving the same Expedition program. I'm interested to see how much they correct out over Windquest.

#118 isma

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:22 AM

I'm interested to see how much they correct out over Windquest.

It's posted, just shy of 5.5hrs. It's yachtscoring so the results are up as soon as someone enters the finish time.

#119 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:33 AM




Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


To be fair, Equation has had a string of equipment failures (rudder last year, spreader in St. Martin, some memorable sail explosions) since her re-launch and she's not an easy boat to get up to speed. Rosebud was a full-time, full-pro program when she was winning everything, and it takes a massive effort to keep it going after an ownership change. Still, they'll get her going soon, I think.

Great to see US Carkeek40 #2 going so well. Bear, Shriner, and Guiness have all put a bunch of time in to get her ready and anyone who sails it will have an instant love affair. Good on 'em.



Can't wait to see the carkeek 40 in Chicago next weekend. Hopefully they can hold on to beat most of the 70's boat for boat.. currently beating all but 2(Evolution, Stripes) on the tracker. I assume it must feel good to also beat his old boat(Denali N/M 68) not only corrected but also boat for boat... granted it's a MUCH different program now.


Sort of sick to see the 40 have no problem hanging with the 70s even with so much upwind work, though granted it was pretty light. Based on what I've seen so far, the design really only has two weaknesses relative to the competition; sub-5 knots and over 18 or so on the nose.

If she can hang on for second overall, that will put the Carkeek's record since Decision broke her sprit in St. Thomas that's pretty impressive: Isla Mujeres (PHRF, Decision): 1st in class, 1st overall, and course record; Bermuda (IRC, Decision): 1st in class IRC, and 1st overall IRC in St. David's Lighthouse; Mack (PHRF, Denali): 2nd in class and 2nd overall.

Given how poorly we scored under ORR in the Bermuda Race compared to IRC, Chicago-Mack could be a very different story.

#120 Great_lakes_racer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:08 AM





Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


To be fair, Equation has had a string of equipment failures (rudder last year, spreader in St. Martin, some memorable sail explosions) since her re-launch and she's not an easy boat to get up to speed. Rosebud was a full-time, full-pro program when she was winning everything, and it takes a massive effort to keep it going after an ownership change. Still, they'll get her going soon, I think.

Great to see US Carkeek40 #2 going so well. Bear, Shriner, and Guiness have all put a bunch of time in to get her ready and anyone who sails it will have an instant love affair. Good on 'em.



Can't wait to see the carkeek 40 in Chicago next weekend. Hopefully they can hold on to beat most of the 70's boat for boat.. currently beating all but 2(Evolution, Stripes) on the tracker. I assume it must feel good to also beat his old boat(Denali N/M 68) not only corrected but also boat for boat... granted it's a MUCH different program now.


Sort of sick to see the 40 have no problem hanging with the 70s even with so much upwind work, though granted it was pretty light. Based on what I've seen so far, the design really only has two weaknesses relative to the competition; sub-5 knots and over 18 or so on the nose.

If she can hang on for second overall, that will put the Carkeek's record since Decision broke her sprit in St. Thomas that's pretty impressive: Isla Mujeres (PHRF, Decision): 1st in class, 1st overall, and course record; Bermuda (IRC, Decision): 1st in class IRC, and 1st overall IRC in St. David's Lighthouse; Mack (PHRF, Denali): 2nd in class and 2nd overall.

Given how poorly we scored under ORR in the Bermuda Race compared to IRC, Chicago-Mack could be a very different story.


That's a pretty good track record, eh? It is sick indeed to see a 40 footer be on pace to be the 6th boat to cross the line in the "other" mac.

Will be very interested to see if Denali^2 can do a little better than Decision in ORR or if it truly does just get crewed in ORR.

#121 Great_lakes_racer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:11 AM

Also, for the Shore Course it's great to see Epic have another good race in PHRF E.. 1st in class so far, even beating a few of the J/120's! Props to the Adams family as well as Jason and all on board, finish strong!

#122 isma

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:18 AM

If anyone has Meade Gougeon's cell number, seriously, call him. Check out the tracker on the SE side of Boblo!

Edit: I hope it's just a tracker issue but it seemed to be working fine.

#123 coyotepup

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:28 AM

Woke up this morning expecting to see a few more finishes, especially "my" boats.....forgot about the early morning wind shut-off. Guess I'll have a nice distraction at work all day.

#124 Nick Farrell

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:48 AM

If anyone has Meade Gougeon's cell number, seriously, call him. Check out the tracker on the SE side of Boblo!

Edit: I hope it's just a tracker issue but it seemed to be working fine.


That is actually where he is...

Nick @ YB

#125 More Cowbell2

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 01:03 PM

Congrats OneGuyFromDetroit 1st place NA 40 class.

On a different note, why would you have a ID35 and Melges 32 in a class with boats as high as 99 PHRF?

#126 coyotepup

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 01:25 PM

Lot of DNF's being scored. Fears of light air + freighter coming true?

#127 More Cowbell2

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 01:25 PM

What happened in PHRF F? Genesis was leading almost the entire race and now is listed DNF?

#128 Will

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:27 PM

Congrats OneGuyFromDetroit 1st place NA 40 class.

On a different note, why would you have a ID35 and Melges 32 in a class with boats as high as 99 PHRF?



That is a great question, kind screwed the rest of their class. No one will correct out within 6 hours of the Melges 32.


If anyone has Meade Gougeon's cell number, seriously, call him. Check out the tracker on the SE side of Boblo!

Edit: I hope it's just a tracker issue but it seemed to be working fine.


That is actually where he is...

Nick @ YB



So any news on Why Meade is on the beach?

#129 isma

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:32 PM

On Meade,
It looks like he might be moving, waiting for the next update. All I know is that they sailed for about 15nm on starboard tack at around 4kts and literally just sailed it onto the beach. I don't want to speculate why. He appears to be off the beach and moving at this point.

The silver lining is that if the boat is damaged, he sure as hell can fix it.

#130 More Cowbell2

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:55 PM

Some boats must not have read the SI's or they didn't have enough stearage - they went inside of the Round Island Passage Light.

#131 More Cowbell2

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:41 PM

<br />What happened in PHRF F?  Genesis was leading almost the entire race and now is listed DNF?<br />


No longer listed as DNF. Now in 1st place. Great job Paul and family!

#132 coyotepup

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:41 PM

Bernida is in and correcting to first place on the shore course. Nobody's gonna beat that time, either. Even beat the Melges.

Think they change her rating this winter? From one SWAG to another?

#133 Great Lakes

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:50 PM

Bernida is in and correcting to first place on the shore course. Nobody's gonna beat that time, either. Even beat the Melges.

Think they change her rating this winter? From one SWAG to another?


While I'm sure there was a great deal more of specifications that went into determining Bernida's rating, it doesn't escape my mind that perhaps a little press / marketing was considered if the first boat to win the race (1925) did so again in 2012. It's not personal, it's business!

#134 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:00 PM

On Meade,
It looks like he might be moving, waiting for the next update. All I know is that they sailed for about 15nm on starboard tack at around 4kts and literally just sailed it onto the beach. I don't want to speculate why. He appears to be off the beach and moving at this point.

The silver lining is that if the boat is damaged, he sure as hell can fix it.


Adagio blew up three of the four sails they were carrying, and turned around to head for home with 11 NM to the finish. Bummer for Meade, the ultimate competitor.

Manitou cracked one of her rear beams. They pulled in and fixed it, and resumed racing this morning. Geff is aboard.

#135 isma

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:01 PM


Bernida is in and correcting to first place on the shore course. Nobody's gonna beat that time, either. Even beat the Melges.

Think they change her rating this winter? From one SWAG to another?


While I'm sure there was a great deal more of specifications that went into determining Bernida's rating, it doesn't escape my mind that perhaps a little press / marketing was considered if the first boat to win the race (1925) did so again in 2012. It's not personal, it's business!

it's not like a bunch of hacks sailed the boat. I give them a lot if not most of the credit.

#136 Great Lakes

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:24 PM



Bernida is in and correcting to first place on the shore course. Nobody's gonna beat that time, either. Even beat the Melges.

Think they change her rating this winter? From one SWAG to another?


While I'm sure there was a great deal more of specifications that went into determining Bernida's rating, it doesn't escape my mind that perhaps a little press / marketing was considered if the first boat to win the race (1925) did so again in 2012. It's not personal, it's business!

it's not like a bunch of hacks sailed the boat. I give them a lot if not most of the credit.


Had no intentions of implying that it wasn't extremely well sailed. The boat wasn't going to get there on it's own. Good sails and good sailors, but encouraging rating so long as your not competing with it.

#137 coyotepup

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:34 PM




Bernida is in and correcting to first place on the shore course. Nobody's gonna beat that time, either. Even beat the Melges.

Think they change her rating this winter? From one SWAG to another?


While I'm sure there was a great deal more of specifications that went into determining Bernida's rating, it doesn't escape my mind that perhaps a little press / marketing was considered if the first boat to win the race (1925) did so again in 2012. It's not personal, it's business!

it's not like a bunch of hacks sailed the boat. I give them a lot if not most of the credit.


Had no intentions of implying that it wasn't extremely well sailed. The boat wasn't going to get there on it's own. Good sails and good sailors, but encouraging rating so long as your not competing with it.


Really, though, what would you rate it? I mean, the science of a rating only goes so far with a restored R boat with basically no baseline to compare it to. It's only 32 feet with maybe 26 feet of waterline, probably less, and not much mast height for that length of boat.....is it all that crazy to rate it similarly to say a Cal 30 or some of these ancient designs that are sailing Cruising C? I have no idea what to compare this boat to in order to say "yup, this rating makes sense." To be honest, I was guessing it'd rate even higher than 192.

#138 Great Lakes

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:40 PM





Bernida is in and correcting to first place on the shore course. Nobody's gonna beat that time, either. Even beat the Melges.

Think they change her rating this winter? From one SWAG to another?


While I'm sure there was a great deal more of specifications that went into determining Bernida's rating, it doesn't escape my mind that perhaps a little press / marketing was considered if the first boat to win the race (1925) did so again in 2012. It's not personal, it's business!

it's not like a bunch of hacks sailed the boat. I give them a lot if not most of the credit.


Had no intentions of implying that it wasn't extremely well sailed. The boat wasn't going to get there on it's own. Good sails and good sailors, but encouraging rating so long as your not competing with it.


Really, though, what would you rate it? I mean, the science of a rating only goes so far with a restored R boat with basically no baseline to compare it to. It's only 32 feet with maybe 26 feet of waterline, probably less, and not much mast height for that length of boat.....is it all that crazy to rate it similarly to say a Cal 30 or some of these ancient designs that are sailing Cruising C? I have no idea what to compare this boat to in order to say "yup, this rating makes sense." To be honest, I was guessing it'd rate even higher than 192.


The more I think about it, I lean more towards not having a clue what it should rate. I suppose the argument of it finishing dead last would have been it has a shitty rating. Finish in the middle and we don't even discuss it, but finish as it did, and it had a gift of a rating. All in all, pretty amazing that as far as design technology has come, that a boat built 90+ years ago can hang with, let alone, trounce a great deal of others.

#139 Great Lakes

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:44 PM

Badfish "Melges 32" sailed impressive as well, given what appears to have been a great deal of upwind work.

#140 lartaunt

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:49 PM

Congrat's to Mr. Bill for taking the very competitive Level 35 division and what appears to be a top 10 overall(at least so far)!

#141 coyotepup

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:02 PM


Really, though, what would you rate it? I mean, the science of a rating only goes so far with a restored R boat with basically no baseline to compare it to. It's only 32 feet with maybe 26 feet of waterline, probably less, and not much mast height for that length of boat.....is it all that crazy to rate it similarly to say a Cal 30 or some of these ancient designs that are sailing Cruising C? I have no idea what to compare this boat to in order to say "yup, this rating makes sense." To be honest, I was guessing it'd rate even higher than 192.


The more I think about it, I lean more towards not having a clue what it should rate. I suppose the argument of it finishing dead last would have been it has a shitty rating. Finish in the middle and we don't even discuss it, but finish as it did, and it had a gift of a rating. All in all, pretty amazing that as far as design technology has come, that a boat built 90+ years ago can hang with, let alone, trounce a great deal of others.

Just goes to prove IMO that the best technology and the best rating system will never trump the weather. If the conditions are right for your boat and you sail them right, off you go. My best guess: 192 is a little bit friendly, but the conditions were even friendlier, just right for Bernida. It was a lightish air race and I'll bet the seas were nice and easy; in a heavy one, she's got no beam and she'd probably be on her side watching modern boats zip by. Last year we sailed through some slop on Sunday morning which Bernida would've had a lot of trouble in.

#142 Tax Man

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:39 PM

192 for an R boat? We have three in town at 117, 124 and 139.

#143 isma

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:43 PM

192 for an R boat? We have three in town at 117, 124 and 139.

Where do you rate a C&C 35 Mk I ? That's a boat with a well-established rating in Detroit.

#144 Polaris

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:58 PM


Bernida is in and correcting to first place on the shore course. Nobody's gonna beat that time, either. Even beat the Melges.

Think they change her rating this winter? From one SWAG to another?


While I'm sure there was a great deal more of specifications that went into determining Bernida's rating, it doesn't escape my mind that perhaps a little press / marketing was considered if the first boat to win the race (1925) did so again in 2012. It's not personal, it's business!


It wasn't, there was zero hanky panky involved on the HRB. As the boat gets an actual race record, it can be adjusted as time goes on (if necessary). Have to admit that Al D is one hell of a sailor as well.

#145 Tax Man

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:19 PM

The C&C 35 Mark 1 rates 132. The Mark 3 rates 123.

#146 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:21 AM

BYC has the Mark I at 126 with Bernida at 192. That's an interesting comparison to Toronto.

#147 Great_lakes_racer

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:23 AM

BYC has the Mark I at 126 with Bernida at 192. That's an interesting comparison to Toronto.

Indeed

#148 Chops

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:13 AM

Byc gives the gift ratings to all Byc boats. I'm shure Bernida is involved in some BS byc politics to get that kind of rating. I call bull shit on that one

#149 Great_lakes_racer

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:24 AM

Byc gives the gift ratings to all Byc boats. I'm shure Bernida is involved in some BS byc politics to get that kind of rating. I call bull shit on that one

I take it you have a bone to pick with BYC? Haha

#150 isma

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:33 AM

Byc gives the gift ratings to all Byc boats. I'm shure Bernida is involved in some BS byc politics to get that kind of rating. I call bull shit on that one

I won't even mention that BYC waived some of the safety requirements including having an engine. I have no problem with them racing, but should they qualify for a prize? And I have no axe to grind with BYC; just presenting facts which is never a bad thing...right?

#151 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 04:12 AM


Byc gives the gift ratings to all Byc boats. I'm shure Bernida is involved in some BS byc politics to get that kind of rating. I call bull shit on that one

I won't even mention that BYC waived some of the safety requirements including having an engine. I have no problem with them racing, but should they qualify for a prize? And I have no axe to grind with BYC; just presenting facts which is never a bad thing...right?


If any boat should be grandfathered for the engine thing, it's Bernida. But that doesn't explain at all why three R-Boats in Toronto would rate around what a C&C 35 does, while Bernida rates 70 seconds slower than a 35 at the BYC Mack. Not casting aspersions, and I didn't race the race, and Al D has kicked my ass enough that I know he can get a boat around a course just fine...

Maybe Bernida has a very different mast/keel/something than those TO boats?

#152 isma

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 04:24 AM

Maybe Bernida has a very different mast/keel/something than those TO boats?

70s better? I'd be willing to bet the boats in TO are not sailing with F40 rigs and canting keels. But who knows with those crazy Canadians. I thought the normal process when a new boat arrived in an area where there were no sisterships was to look at how the rest of the country treats it. Given that TO has similar conditions to L StC, this would have been an obvious. This clearly wasn't done because I don't see any way that big of delta could be justified. There might very well be more to the story and there is no denying that the crew on the boat is very good and the sails have that new smell.

#153 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 04:28 AM

Aaaahhhh...the joys of handicap racing!

Either way, it's pretty cool to my way of thinking to have two great crews on two wildly different boats finish a century apart in time yet correct within a few minutes of eachother. As I said...the joys of handicap racing!

Congrats to all.

#154 coyotepup

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:58 AM

Byc gives the gift ratings to all Byc boats. I'm shure Bernida is involved in some BS byc politics to get that kind of rating. I call bull shit on that one

Yes, because BYC is in charge of ratings. When you get a ratings certificate, it's totally a BYC one and not, say, a DRYA certificate :rolleyes:

P.S. also, we landed on the moon and not a sound stage, there was no shooter on the grassy knoll, and Muslims brought down the WTC.

Maybe Bernida has a very different mast/keel/something than those TO boats?


Don't know about the keel, but the mast is wood.

Are all R boats the same size? Bernida is 32 feet. Are the TO boats also 32 feet? This is a 40-foot one.

#155 in_TO

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:08 PM

Maybe Bernida has a very different mast/keel/something than those TO boats?

Don't know about the keel, but the mast is wood.

Are all R boats the same size? Bernida is 32 feet. Are the TO boats also 32 feet? This is a 40-foot one.


One of our R-boats had a wood rig, which sadly dropped about three weeks ago. They are roughly a hair under 40 ft, with lots of overhang.

#156 isma

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:20 PM


Maybe Bernida has a very different mast/keel/something than those TO boats?

Don't know about the keel, but the mast is wood.

Are all R boats the same size? Bernida is 32 feet. Are the TO boats also 32 feet? This is a 40-foot one.


One of our R-boats had a wood rig, which sadly dropped about three weeks ago. They are roughly a hair under 40 ft, with lots of overhang.

The R class was like the 12m class if you will. I just looked up the formula and the limit was 20 ft:

R(ft) = .18 * Length * sqrt(SA) / D^1/3 so the units are in ft, where D is displacement in cubic feet.

So you can build them long and heavy or short and light (assuming the same SA). Times have changed since this rule was established but it's not clear that length alone would explain a very significant speed difference.

None of this matters but it's fun. Congratulations to Bernida who at any rating sailed a great race.

#157 coyotepup

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:29 PM


Maybe Bernida has a very different mast/keel/something than those TO boats?

Don't know about the keel, but the mast is wood.

Are all R boats the same size? Bernida is 32 feet. Are the TO boats also 32 feet? This is a 40-foot one.


One of our R-boats had a wood rig, which sadly dropped about three weeks ago. They are roughly a hair under 40 ft, with lots of overhang.

I'd guess the eight extra feet (and roughly six extra feet of waterline?) is the main reason for the difference in rating.

Frankly, we ought to be celebrating this as a really great story for the race instead of harping about ratings. Rating complaints are the oldest whine in the book. Even if the tinfoil hatters were 100% right, a ratings committee still can't sail the boat, fix it up to sailing shape, or order up favorable wind conditions. The Melges corrected to a bloody hour and a half ahead of the rest of the fleet and nobody is complaining that Melges 32s have a screwy rating. I say we stop wasting air on a nonstory about ratings, and enjoy the fact that something pretty damn interesting just happened.

#158 Geff

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

I'll post the story of Manitou when I get home later jun a day or so.

#159 jsmin

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:31 PM

so they can waive whatever rules they want to make a boat legal or illegal to race?

what do you think would have happened if it wasn't a byc boat?

huge risk letting a motorless boat race. talk about potential safety problems.
or potential risks to others if they needed to be rescued.
anybody else see that?

#160 12345

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:33 PM

just presenting facts which is never a bad thing...right?


this is the forums on SA, facts rarely get in the way of a good story(hit count). :ph34r:

#161 isma

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:35 PM


just presenting facts which is never a bad thing...right?


this is the forums on SA, facts rarely get in the way of a good story (hit count). :ph34r:

I was having a Joe Friday moment.

#162 Callahan

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:31 PM

Watching the race on the tracker, Bernida was in front of the whole Shore course fleet for the first 100 miles. Nobody in her class with ratings down to 150 range was even remotely close to her. Check the elapsed times for Eliminator, a perennial winner and extremely well sailed boat rating 126. They were the only boat in PHRF G to beat Bernida boat for boat. The PHRF H boats were all miles behind Fact. Bernida is a well sailed and well prepared boat. My guess is that the rating committee didn't do a lot of due diligence on this one especially if they were comparing performance with a Cal 30-2. I have sailed on an R boat once. I have started 5 minutes behind them on a Star boat numerous times. No way is 192 remotely close to a reasonable rating. Bernida was way out in front the whole way. The only thing that made it close for overall is the wind died for them and they sat a long time 60 miles from the finish.

As far as waiving the safety requirements. That's just bad precedent and very bad optics. The facts, no motor-check, no self bailing cockpit-check, no permanent head-check, no permanent stove-check, no lifelines-check, no bow pulpit- check, no forward hatch-check. How can the committee ding any other competitor for safety shortcomings when they let Bernida into the race. As far as I'm concerned the committee sold out it commitment to safety on this one. Fairly or unfairly, this is why there is a perception of home cooking when it comes to the BYC Mac. Do you think this boat could get into the Chicago Mac?

Attached Files



#163 Great Lakes

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:10 PM

Your research appears very solid, and if all are such, than the Committee is quite lucky the weather was tame. On a different note, I'm curious as to why so many divisions have moved to the Shore Course? Having sailed a J35 for years, I was wondering if anyone knows why they were not on the Cove Island course, or many of the others (J120) etc.

#164 Revenge

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:15 PM



Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


That's not a fair assessment, last year they had a broken rudder, this year they had tactics that had them out of the money. Both NJ and Windquest took huge flyers up to Port Austin before they headed fro Tobermory. Equation was on the rhumb line with a lighter backing breeze. I'm thinking that Windquest sailed a near perfect race and NJ just followed them online.


You're mistaken if you think we just follow Windquest around the course- not only did we have a pregame plan on banging left but we led them there (Windquest gybed to follow us). If you saw our start youd understand that we painfully hedged left to get there while everyone else played rhumb. Sure there was one last gybe in shore at the thumb - they showed more pressure still but wouldnt you use the biggest tell-tale on the lake too? Furthermore, we had no Data from the thumb until Cove Island and little from there to Bois Blanc due to connection issues. You don't win 3 Mack overalls straight following people around enough said. Very fun race in all and saw parts of the lake I haven't seen in 18 years of sailing this race- congrats to the flag winners.

#165 chicagosos

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:22 AM




Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


That's not a fair assessment, last year they had a broken rudder, this year they had tactics that had them out of the money. Both NJ and Windquest took huge flyers up to Port Austin before they headed fro Tobermory. Equation was on the rhumb line with a lighter backing breeze. I'm thinking that Windquest sailed a near perfect race and NJ just followed them online.


You're mistaken if you think we just follow Windquest around the course- not only did we have a pregame plan on banging left but we led them there (Windquest gybed to follow us). If you saw our start youd understand that we painfully hedged left to get there while everyone else played rhumb. Sure there was one last gybe in shore at the thumb - they showed more pressure still but wouldnt you use the biggest tell-tale on the lake too? Furthermore, we had no Data from the thumb until Cove Island and little from there to Bois Blanc due to connection issues. You don't win 3 Mack overalls straight following people around enough said. Very fun race in all and saw parts of the lake I haven't seen in 18 years of sailing this race- congrats to the flag winners.


Yeah - that's a pretty rash comment Polaris. We all watched NJ head left shortly after the line and truck north. That was an awesome move that won them the race. Give credit where credit is due. No knock at all on Windquest or any other boat, including Equation who sailed a great race as well. But really, NJ made an awesome move and paid. Kudos and congrats Revenge.

#166 Polaris

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:31 AM





Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


That's not a fair assessment, last year they had a broken rudder, this year they had tactics that had them out of the money. Both NJ and Windquest took huge flyers up to Port Austin before they headed fro Tobermory. Equation was on the rhumb line with a lighter backing breeze. I'm thinking that Windquest sailed a near perfect race and NJ just followed them online.


You're mistaken if you think we just follow Windquest around the course- not only did we have a pregame plan on banging left but we led them there (Windquest gybed to follow us). If you saw our start youd understand that we painfully hedged left to get there while everyone else played rhumb. Sure there was one last gybe in shore at the thumb - they showed more pressure still but wouldnt you use the biggest tell-tale on the lake too? Furthermore, we had no Data from the thumb until Cove Island and little from there to Bois Blanc due to connection issues. You don't win 3 Mack overalls straight following people around enough said. Very fun race in all and saw parts of the lake I haven't seen in 18 years of sailing this race- congrats to the flag winners.


Yeah - that's a pretty rash comment Polaris. We all watched NJ head left shortly after the line and truck north. That was an awesome move that won them the race. Give credit where credit is due. No knock at all on Windquest or any other boat, including Equation who sailed a great race as well. But really, NJ made an awesome move and paid. Kudos and congrats Revenge.


Nothing rash about it. On the track, Windquest went even further north on the thumb before they broke over. On the northern lake, the tracks were close, coincidence, no problem, it's the way the wind took them. The original post was trashing Equation, I thought that was out of line comparing it to NJ that bit the corner and got the shift. Three consecutive wins in three years, congrats on the ultimate hat trick.

#167 Grrr...

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:48 AM

Watching the race on the tracker, Bernida was in front of the whole Shore course fleet for the first 100 miles. Nobody in her class with ratings down to 150 range was even remotely close to her. Check the elapsed times for Eliminator, a perennial winner and extremely well sailed boat rating 126. They were the only boat in PHRF G to beat Bernida boat for boat. The PHRF H boats were all miles behind Fact. Bernida is a well sailed and well prepared boat. My guess is that the rating committee didn't do a lot of due diligence on this one especially if they were comparing performance with a Cal 30-2. I have sailed on an R boat once. I have started 5 minutes behind them on a Star boat numerous times. No way is 192 remotely close to a reasonable rating. Bernida was way out in front the whole way. The only thing that made it close for overall is the wind died for them and they sat a long time 60 miles from the finish.

As far as waiving the safety requirements. That's just bad precedent and very bad optics. The facts, no motor-check, no self bailing cockpit-check, no permanent head-check, no permanent stove-check, no lifelines-check, no bow pulpit- check, no forward hatch-check. How can the committee ding any other competitor for safety shortcomings when they let Bernida into the race. As far as I'm concerned the committee sold out it commitment to safety on this one. Fairly or unfairly, this is why there is a perception of home cooking when it comes to the BYC Mac. Do you think this boat could get into the Chicago Mac?



I've sailed both on and against 3 of them. They all rated 129 or 126. They sailed even-up with Ericson 37's, Santana 35s and T-10s. Never mind that those R boats raced on Lake St. Stupid, where the DRYA calls home.

I'm shocked that they'd rate it at a 192.

Safety? You have to actively bail the boats upwind in waves so the cockpit doesn't fill and flood the interior. We had twin manual pumps running full time, and a guy who layed down on the combing to deflect huge amounts of water out. Poor guy. Wasn't even worth him wearing foulies, he ended up soaked and freezing even in a drysuit. Doing a Mack in them in bad conditions would be.... sporty.... to say the least.

#168 L Z

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:58 AM

Byc gives the gift ratings to all Byc boats. I'm shure Bernida is involved in some BS byc politics to get that kind of rating. I call bull shit on that one


You need to stop smoking that funny shot you're on. Not sure what your issue is with BYC but your comments above are so full of crap it isn't event funny.

In case you're wondering, BYC DID NOT assign any ratings. All competitors were required to get a PHRF Certificate from the local Rating Authority which is the DRYA. Is is in the NOR in case you want to check it out.

Get your shit straight before spewing non-sense.

Yes, your non-sense and accusation did touch a nerve, thank you.

#169 barleymalt

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:37 PM

Sailed PHRF H against Bernida. No question about the talent level on the boat, but they utterly destroyed boats in conditions that those boats are very competitive in, and have been well sailed for years. They shot out at the start, and never looked back. Whatever.

#170 jsmin

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:47 PM

so how did they get a phrf rating when not meeting all safety rules as per drya?

still can't beleive they would sign off on this, especially since what happened last year on the chi mac race
opens the door for everybody to get rid of their lifelines, pulpits, engines, etc...
remember when they didn't want the melges 24 to race - a melges is way more safe than that R boat

from DRYA rules - Unless otherwise stated in a clubs sailing instructions, PHRF yachts sailing in DRYA regattas
must meet or exceed U. S. Coast Guard safety requirements and meet or exceed U S
Sailing/ORC Special Regulations, Sections 1 through 6, for Category 4 races. (Ref. DRYA
Handbook Section 9)

#171 Skull & Bones

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:48 PM

Fun race. We had a blast. Had a great time after we turned Cove, watching the Windancer, Stripes, Details, & Thirsty Tiger all catch up to us and head down the Rhumb Line.

BYC: Great Party at the Grand!

#172 L Z

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:54 PM

so how did they get a phrf rating when not meeting all safety rules as per drya?

still can't beleive they would sign off on this, especially since what happened last year on the chi mac race
opens the door for everybody to get rid of their lifelines, pulpits, engines, etc...
remember when they didn't want the melges 24 to race - a melges is way more safe than that R boat

from DRYA rules - Unless otherwise stated in a clubs sailing instructions, PHRF yachts sailing in DRYA regattas
must meet or exceed U. S. Coast Guard safety requirements and meet or exceed U S
Sailing/ORC Special Regulations, Sections 1 through 6, for Category 4 races. (Ref. DRYA
Handbook Section 9)


Etchells, Flying Scot and various other small boats also do not have life lines and have PHRF ratings. BYC is not a DRYA regatta.

BTW, I don't have any bone to pick here. Just highlighted your text.

#173 jsmin

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:57 PM

and can now sign up and do the byc mac race i assume

#174 Grinder

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:15 PM

Box O' Worms = Open

#175 mgosailing

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:27 PM

so how did they get a phrf rating when not meeting all safety rules as per drya?

still can't beleive they would sign off on this, especially since what happened last year on the chi mac race
opens the door for everybody to get rid of their lifelines, pulpits, engines, etc...
remember when they didn't want the melges 24 to race - a melges is way more safe than that R boat

from DRYA rules - Unless otherwise stated in a clubs sailing instructions, PHRF yachts sailing in DRYA regattas
must meet or exceed U. S. Coast Guard safety requirements and meet or exceed U S
Sailing/ORC Special Regulations, Sections 1 through 6, for Category 4 races. (Ref. DRYA
Handbook Section 9)


To be fair, the boat did the race many moons ago before the USCG had helicopters and go-fast boats to help boaters in trouble. At some point, no matter how hard you regulate, these races still have a threat of bodily harm/death. Would you have kept Rambler out of the Fastnet? Yet they lose a keel and people almost lose their lives. Some of this is press, obviously, but how cool is it that the original winner does the race again? Also, if there is anyone out there that can keep that boat safe, its probably Al. The guy is a really good sailor no matter how you cut it.

I think everyone needs to take a step back and consider what we just witnessed. Gift rating or not, an almost 100 year old boat just did the race again after winning it in 1925. No one can say that the crew of that boat were not aware of the risk that they were taking, but that is their choice. Last time I checked we still had free will. Even if they hadn't technically been allowed to race, I would not have been surprised if they would have ghosted it just to prove a point.

#176 L Z

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:39 PM


so how did they get a phrf rating when not meeting all safety rules as per drya?

still can't beleive they would sign off on this, especially since what happened last year on the chi mac race
opens the door for everybody to get rid of their lifelines, pulpits, engines, etc...
remember when they didn't want the melges 24 to race - a melges is way more safe than that R boat

from DRYA rules - Unless otherwise stated in a clubs sailing instructions, PHRF yachts sailing in DRYA regattas
must meet or exceed U. S. Coast Guard safety requirements and meet or exceed U S
Sailing/ORC Special Regulations, Sections 1 through 6, for Category 4 races. (Ref. DRYA
Handbook Section 9)


To be fair, the boat did the race many moons ago before the USCG had helicopters and go-fast boats to help boaters in trouble. At some point, no matter how hard you regulate, these races still have a threat of bodily harm/death. Would you have kept Rambler out of the Fastnet? Yet they lose a keel and people almost lose their lives. Some of this is press, obviously, but how cool is it that the original winner does the race again? Also, if there is anyone out there that can keep that boat safe, its probably Al. The guy is a really good sailor no matter how you cut it.

I think everyone needs to take a step back and consider what we just witnessed. Gift rating or not, an almost 100 year old boat just did the race again after winning it in 1925. No one can say that the crew of that boat were not aware of the risk that they were taking, but that is their choice. Last time I checked we still had free will. Even if they hadn't technically been allowed to race, I would not have been surprised if they would have ghosted it just to prove a point.


+1

#177 SailDry

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:46 PM

Byc gives the gift ratings to all Byc boats. I'm shure Bernida is involved in some BS byc politics to get that kind of rating. I call bull shit on that one


BYC didn't rate the boats. So I suppose BYC has influence over IRC and ORR too?

#178 SailDry

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:47 PM

so how did they get a phrf rating when not meeting all safety rules as per drya?

still can't beleive they would sign off on this, especially since what happened last year on the chi mac race
opens the door for everybody to get rid of their lifelines, pulpits, engines, etc...
remember when they didn't want the melges 24 to race - a melges is way more safe than that R boat

from DRYA rules - Unless otherwise stated in a clubs sailing instructions, PHRF yachts sailing in DRYA regattas
must meet or exceed U. S. Coast Guard safety requirements and meet or exceed U S
Sailing/ORC Special Regulations, Sections 1 through 6, for Category 4 races. (Ref. DRYA
Handbook Section 9)


Did you read the NOR?

#179 chicagosos

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:54 PM

What happened to all the reports from the boats that were going to write them up? Also, no post race front page coverage?

#180 12345

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:07 PM


To be fair, the boat did the race many moons ago before the USCG had helicopters and go-fast boats to help boaters in trouble. At some point, no matter how hard you regulate, these races still have a threat of bodily harm/death. Would you have kept Rambler out of the Fastnet? Yet they lose a keel and people almost lose their lives. Some of this is press, obviously, but how cool is it that the original winner does the race again? Also, if there is anyone out there that can keep that boat safe, its probably Al. The guy is a really good sailor no matter how you cut it.

I think everyone needs to take a step back and consider what we just witnessed. Gift rating or not, an almost 100 year old boat just did the race again after winning it in 1925. No one can say that the crew of that boat were not aware of the risk that they were taking, but that is their choice. Last time I checked we still had free will.


+1


+2

All the boo birds need to take a step back and relax.

#181 jsmin

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:08 PM

again - byc took a huge chance by re-writing the rules for a boat. then it gets a gift rating. i know he is balls deep up there, but come on

#182 oneguyfromdetroit

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:14 PM





Pretty insane to see the NJ hold off Equationbud until 20 NM to the finish. Some pretty sick sailing from Bora and the boys, could easily be another overall win.



NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


That's not a fair assessment, last year they had a broken rudder, this year they had tactics that had them out of the money. Both NJ and Windquest took huge flyers up to Port Austin before they headed fro Tobermory. Equation was on the rhumb line with a lighter backing breeze. I'm thinking that Windquest sailed a near perfect race and NJ just followed them online.


Your a fuckwit, Windquest jybed to cover Natalie J. NJ had a gameplan to hit the western shore before the race started. Well done Bora, Benj, Phil and team!



Christ, didn't mean to stir the pot, was unaware of the unfortunate things that have happened to Equation the last few years. She's a sexy boat and I do hope she can perform well in the "real" mac next week!


They're both 'real'. Ask anyone who sails both.

#183 oneguyfromdetroit

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:16 PM

Congrats OneGuyFromDetroit 1st place NA 40 class.

On a different note, why would you have a ID35 and Melges 32 in a class with boats as high as 99 PHRF?

Thanks.

#184 barleymalt

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:20 PM








NJ has had a wonderful race so far and hopefully with somewhere around 5 miles to go they can hold on for the overall. While on the surface it is very impressive that they were able to hold off Equation for so long... unfortunately we've all begin to recognize Equation as a boat that underperforms. Once again congrats to the boys on NJ as they've sailed a good race so far!

Also, don't forget the boys on denali^2 are doing very well.


That's not a fair assessment, last year they had a broken rudder, this year they had tactics that had them out of the money. Both NJ and Windquest took huge flyers up to Port Austin before they headed fro Tobermory. Equation was on the rhumb line with a lighter backing breeze. I'm thinking that Windquest sailed a near perfect race and NJ just followed them online.


Your a fuckwit, Windquest jybed to cover Natalie J. NJ had a gameplan to hit the western shore before the race started. Well done Bora, Benj, Phil and team!



Christ, didn't mean to stir the pot, was unaware of the unfortunate things that have happened to Equation the last few years. She's a sexy boat and I do hope she can perform well in the "real" mac next week!


They're both 'real'. Ask anyone who sails both.


Amen. And a +1 on the congrats, nice job.

#185 Great Lakes

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:32 PM



To be fair, the boat did the race many moons ago before the USCG had helicopters and go-fast boats to help boaters in trouble. At some point, no matter how hard you regulate, these races still have a threat of bodily harm/death. Would you have kept Rambler out of the Fastnet? Yet they lose a keel and people almost lose their lives. Some of this is press, obviously, but how cool is it that the original winner does the race again? Also, if there is anyone out there that can keep that boat safe, its probably Al. The guy is a really good sailor no matter how you cut it.

I think everyone needs to take a step back and consider what we just witnessed. Gift rating or not, an almost 100 year old boat just did the race again after winning it in 1925. No one can say that the crew of that boat were not aware of the risk that they were taking, but that is their choice. Last time I checked we still had free will.


+1


+2

All the boo birds need to take a step back and relax.


True that it is amazing that an almost 100 year old boat did the race and won. We can all give that a +1, once you've done that however, your argument regarding helicopters and certain rules not applying many moons ago is quite ridiculous. Freedom to choose, does not mean legal! It does not matter one bit who sailed the boat, that is not a factor in safety rules. Kudos to the boat and crew for proving it could do what it did, but shame on the decision makers who allowed it to race as a legal entry.

#186 Grinder

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:37 PM

What happened to all the reports from the boats that were going to write them up? Also, no post race front page coverage?

How about your write-up from the perspective of a newbie Chicagoan doing his 1st PH Mac race? Write it up & send it in, beeyotch!

#187 mgosailing

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:47 PM

True that it is amazing that an almost 100 year old boat did the race and won. We can all give that a +1, once you've done that however, your argument regarding helicopters and certain rules not applying many moons ago is quite ridiculous. Freedom to choose, does not mean legal! It does not matter one bit who sailed the boat, that is not a factor in safety rules. Kudos to the boat and crew for proving it could do what it did, but shame on the decision makers who allowed it to race as a legal entry.


I think you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. Ultimately, every boat in every race inherently contains some risk, and no matter how hard you regulate, that risk does not converge to 0 even in an era when the ability of the USCG and other entities to assist far exceeds what was available when Bernida first did the race.

Nor did I make any claims to define what is "legal", that is BYC's job. However, another part of my point was that some portion of this boat being allowed in the race is press related. Its a human interest piece. Everyone is claiming how sailing is dying, the sport can't get any press in the US, and so on. Yet when someone does something cool all you guys can talk about is how that boat should never have been allowed to race and that it got a gift rating and all kinds of favorable exceptions.

Lastly, it absolutely does make a difference who is sailing the boat. There is a reason these races are by invite. You have to show seaworthiness to be allowed to race. So your assertion that it doesn't factor in at all is patently false.

#188 Great Lakes

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:06 PM



True that it is amazing that an almost 100 year old boat did the race and won. We can all give that a +1, once you've done that however, your argument regarding helicopters and certain rules not applying many moons ago is quite ridiculous. Freedom to choose, does not mean legal! It does not matter one bit who sailed the boat, that is not a factor in safety rules. Kudos to the boat and crew for proving it could do what it did, but shame on the decision makers who allowed it to race as a legal entry.


I think you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. Ultimately, every boat in every race inherently contains some risk, and no matter how hard you regulate, that risk does not converge to 0 even in an era when the ability of the USCG and other entities to assist far exceeds what was available when Bernida first did the race.

Nor did I make any claims to define what is "legal", that is BYC's job. However, another part of my point was that some portion of this boat being allowed in the race is press related. Its a human interest piece. Everyone is claiming how sailing is dying, the sport can't get any press in the US, and so on. Yet when someone does something cool all you guys can talk about is how that boat should never have been allowed to race and that it got a gift rating and all kinds of favorable exceptions.

Lastly, it absolutely does make a difference who is sailing the boat. There is a reason these races are by invite. You have to show seaworthiness to be allowed to race. So your assertion that it doesn't factor in at all is patently false.


I'm not here to get in a shit fight, but if you look back to my first post I clearly stated that perhaps it was a marketing related decision, so I clearly understood that. Regardless of Marketing/Press/Human Interest, etc. You don't allow entry to a boat if it isn't legally equipped. I'm also not here to spend time determining legality of Bernida. The race may be by invite, (show an interest and meet a few minimal requirements and your in), but my post referred to a rating being assigned to a boat, which does not consider the last name of those who step on board when it leaves the dock. Perhaps someone with greater knowledge on the process of Bernida being allowed to race, along with what appears to be a favorable rating, than either you or I have, will enlighten us, otherwise it is simply two differing opinions from varying perspectives.

#189 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:14 PM

What happened to all the reports from the boats that were going to write them up? Also, no post race front page coverage?


Huh?

We have already run 4 stories on the BYC Mack over the past couple weeks, including the finish report from Bora and two from High Priority. Apparently all my boys got too wasted to write their final wraps, but not to worry: Lots of Mack action coming up...announcement today...

#190 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:27 PM

I'm not here to get in a shit fight, but if you look back to my first post I clearly stated that perhaps it was a marketing related decision, so I clearly understood that. Regardless of Marketing/Press/Human Interest, etc. You don't allow entry to a boat if it isn't legally equipped. I'm also not here to spend time determining legality of Bernida. The race may be by invite, (show an interest and meet a few minimal requirements and your in), but my post referred to a rating being assigned to a boat, which does not consider the last name of those who step on board when it leaves the dock. Perhaps someone with greater knowledge on the process of Bernida being allowed to race, along with what appears to be a favorable rating, than either you or I have, will enlighten us, otherwise it is simply two differing opinions from varying perspectives.


Other than 'because dem's da rules', why shouldn't she be allowed to race?

Is it because the threat of litigation has terrified everyone into thinking that safety rules are actually always necessary?

In my opinion, you should run races with the least stringent rules possible, commensurate with what your insurers will permit. I guess Bernida didn't bug the insurance company.

#191 More Cowbell2

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:27 PM

From the 2012 BYC NOR. The last sentence makes it crystal clear.


2. Rules
The Race shall be governed by the “rules” as defined in the current
Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012 (RRS), which include the
following (except as changed by the Sailing Instructions):
a. The prescriptions of the United States Sailing Association
(US SAILING).
b. This Notice and Conditions of Race (Notice of Race) and any
amendments.
c. The Sailing Instructions and any amendments.
d. For monohulls, the Mackinac Safety Regulations 2012 –
Monohulls (“MSR”). The winner of the inaugural Mackinac
Race in 1925, Bernida, is expected to apply to sail in the race.
Due to the historic nature of its participation and constraints
that may make it impossible to comply in all respects with the
MSR, the Race Committee reserves the right to modify and/
or supplement the MSR as it relates to Bernida, alone.

#192 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:29 PM

Oh, and Bora's coming over tonight so we can write his Mack report. Mack Trick!

#193 lartaunt

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:36 PM

From the 2012 BYC NOR. The last sentence makes it crystal clear.


2. Rules
The Race shall be governed by the "rules" as defined in the current
Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012 (RRS), which include the
following (except as changed by the Sailing Instructions):
a. The prescriptions of the United States Sailing Association
(US SAILING).
b. This Notice and Conditions of Race (Notice of Race) and any
amendments.
c. The Sailing Instructions and any amendments.
d. For monohulls, the Mackinac Safety Regulations 2012 –
Monohulls ("MSR"). The winner of the inaugural Mackinac
Race in 1925, Bernida, is expected to apply to sail in the race.
Due to the historic nature of its participation and constraints
that may make it impossible to comply in all respects with the
MSR, the Race Committee reserves the right to modify and/
or supplement the MSR as it relates to Bernida, alone.


Don't confuse em with the facts! That just kills an otherwise entertaining shit fight! Rating rants continue, Safety equipement rants, game over! Off to Chicago!:D

#194 More Cowbell2

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:45 PM

<br />

<br />From the 2012 BYC NOR.  The last sentence makes it crystal clear.<br /><br /><br />2. Rules<br />The Race shall be governed by the &quot;rules&quot; as defined in the current<br />Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012 (RRS), which include the<br />following (except as changed by the Sailing Instructions):<br />a. The prescriptions of the United States Sailing Association<br />(US SAILING).<br />b. This Notice and Conditions of Race (Notice of Race) and any<br />amendments.<br />c. The Sailing Instructions and any amendments.<br />d. For monohulls, the Mackinac Safety Regulations 2012 –<br />Monohulls (&quot;MSR&quot;). The winner of the inaugural Mackinac<br />Race in 1925, Bernida, is expected to apply to sail in the race.<br />Due to the historic nature of its participation and constraints<br />that may make it impossible to comply in all respects with the<br />MSR, the Race Committee reserves the right to modify and/<br />or supplement the MSR as it relates to Bernida, alone.<br />

<br /><br />Don't confuse em with the facts!  That just kills an otherwise entertaining shit fight!   Rating rants continue, Safety equipement rants, game over! Off to Chicago!<img src='http://forums.sailin...ult/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /><br />


Good luck this weekend Larry! How come you guys didn't form a OD Section? You have 8 boats in Section 6. Didn't file on time?

See you at Harbor Springs.

#195 Great Lakes

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:10 PM


From the 2012 BYC NOR. The last sentence makes it crystal clear.


2. Rules
The Race shall be governed by the "rules" as defined in the current
Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012 (RRS), which include the
following (except as changed by the Sailing Instructions):
a. The prescriptions of the United States Sailing Association
(US SAILING).
b. This Notice and Conditions of Race (Notice of Race) and any
amendments.
c. The Sailing Instructions and any amendments.
d. For monohulls, the Mackinac Safety Regulations 2012 –
Monohulls ("MSR"). The winner of the inaugural Mackinac
Race in 1925, Bernida, is expected to apply to sail in the race.
Due to the historic nature of its participation and constraints
that may make it impossible to comply in all respects with the
MSR, the Race Committee reserves the right to modify and/
or supplement the MSR as it relates to Bernida, alone.


Don't confuse em with the facts! That just kills an otherwise entertaining shit fight! Rating rants continue, Safety equipement rants, game over! Off to Chicago!:D


Larry, man you killed it for me, I was just trying to increase my posts so I could get off Newbie status, as I figured 6 years was enough! Maybe you could shed some light on what I really wanted to know, and that is why the J35's weren't on the Cove Island course? I'll look for you on the Island, or in H. Springs.

#196 highlife

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:41 PM

Where would these modifications or supplements to the MSR, as it relates to Bernida, be located? I don't see anything relating specifically to Bernida in the MSR posted on the BYC Mac site.

From the 2012 BYC NOR. The last sentence makes it crystal clear.

d. For monohulls, the Mackinac Safety Regulations 2012 –
Monohulls (“MSR”). The winner of the inaugural Mackinac
Race in 1925, Bernida, is expected to apply to sail in the race.
Due to the historic nature of its participation and constraints
that may make it impossible to comply in all respects with the
MSR, the Race Committee reserves the right to modify and/
or supplement the MSR as it relates to Bernida, alone.



#197 More Cowbell2

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:01 PM

<br />Where would these modifications or supplements to the MSR, as it relates to Bernida, be located?  I don't see anything relating specifically to Bernida in the MSR posted on the BYC Mac site.<br /><br />

<br />From the 2012 BYC NOR.  The last sentence makes it crystal clear.<br /><br />d. For monohulls, the Mackinac Safety Regulations 2012 –<br />Monohulls ("MSR"). The winner of the inaugural Mackinac<br />Race in 1925, Bernida, is expected to apply to sail in the race.<br />Due to the historic nature of its participation and constraints<br />that may make it impossible to comply in all respects with the<br />MSR, the Race Committee reserves the right to modify and/<br />or supplement the MSR as it relates to Bernida, alone.<br />

<br />


The statement itself is giving Bernida a "bye" with respect to meeting the 2012 MSR for monohulls.

#198 12345

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:23 PM


I'm not here to get in a shit fight, but if you look back to my first post I clearly stated that perhaps it was a marketing related decision, so I clearly understood that. Regardless of Marketing/Press/Human Interest, etc. You don't allow entry to a boat if it isn't legally equipped. I'm also not here to spend time determining legality of Bernida. The race may be by invite, (show an interest and meet a few minimal requirements and your in), but my post referred to a rating being assigned to a boat, which does not consider the last name of those who step on board when it leaves the dock. Perhaps someone with greater knowledge on the process of Bernida being allowed to race, along with what appears to be a favorable rating, than either you or I have, will enlighten us, otherwise it is simply two differing opinions from varying perspectives.


Other than 'because dem's da rules', why shouldn't she be allowed to race?

Is it because the threat of litigation has terrified everyone into thinking that safety rules are actually always necessary?

In my opinion, you should run races with the least stringent rules possible, commensurate with what your insurers will permit. I guess Bernida didn't bug the insurance company.


woah, I agree w Clean. :ph34r:

So GL did you loose to Bernida or something cause you seem to be trying awful hard to start a shitfight despite you claims to the contrary.

#199 More Cowbell2

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:46 PM

Read a couple of posts up. He is just trying to add to his post count. She should be allowed to sail this race. Not sure I agree with the rating given the other R boat info above.

#200 Monkey

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 07:16 PM

I'm just curious, but this is a serious question to all of you with your panties in a twist about Bernida and the safety regs...

Where was the outrage before she won?




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