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CYC Race To Mackinac - Weather and...


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#101 6924

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:29 PM

Gotta Love those corrected times :)

Everyone;s a winner

#102 Skull & Bones

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:46 PM

Gotta Love those corrected times :)

Everyone;s a winner

The math doesn't lie...........

#103 Rich Frye

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:43 AM


Gotta Love those corrected times :)

Everyone;s a winner

The math doesn't lie...........

It's very hard to interpret his post. But I take it he thinks 300+ boats racing one 300+ mile race should all happen to be OD.
Or, he's just not a racer in the least bit and does not understand the concept of handicaps. I guess the richest guy with the most money/biggest , fastest boat should always, always win? Extra very yachty indead. Gotta get me a pyramid going...
Either way, I don't get the post either.

#104 MidPack

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:47 AM

Amazing how compressed the finish times are from Turbo to Sec 8 (yes, I understand how/why), everyone finished Monday (though one multi still out there), I can't remember when there haven't been any Tues finishers. Even though there were a few "lulls", the overall pace was good, I have to assume most of the (smaller) racers are all thrilled to be at the Pink Pony so early.

Really enjoyed the coverage Clean provided, yellowbrick was great all in all and the CYC info (FB & regular site) made it easier to stomach not being able to participate this year.

#105 6924

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 05:01 AM

If we were at the bar, We'd order a pitcher of something strong and cold and discuss the poetry of ratings & their use and misuse; and have a rousing good time deciding nothing.

If I was god, I'd give Torrensen's boat all the silver, purely 'cuz they must have had more fun than anyone.

Handing the silver to the 109s and 111s when both fleets got collectively buried deep seems a bit odd, perhaps just a quirk of the formula.

#106 Rich Frye

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 05:33 AM

If we were at the bar, We'd order a pitcher of something strong and cold and discuss the poetry of ratings & their use and misuse; and have a rousing good time deciding nothing.


Beer good, ratings suck


If I was god, I'd give Torrensen's boat all the silver, purely 'cuz they must have had more fun than anyone.


PHRF boat, fun is subjective

Handing the silver to the 109s and 111s when both fleets got collectively buried deep seems a bit odd, perhaps just a quirk of the formula.


Stay on the left coast






Haiku Rich,
since you brought up 'poetry'...

#107 Heriberto

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 11:33 AM

No, fun isn't "subjective", fun is fun, and sailing a dump truck is sailing a dump truck. Stick your ass in a fucking T10 for 3 days just because it's "OD"? Been there, done that, fuck that. Racing a J105 and having the wind bring you up to the big boat parking lot is more fun than screaming for 24 hours on Peerless? Whatever, "fun is subjective".

And there is no fucking PHRF in the Mac race. That ended years ago. So no, not PHRF boat.

The stupid is really burning white hot now from all y'all. By this logic, there shouldn't be any Mac Cup or Trophy at all, because all 300+ boats weren't just two different sized piece of shit ODs. Ya gotta feel sorry for the messiahs of one design, weeping that the purity of the race is tarnished by not being done in two different classes of J-boat. How fucking sad and boring would that be?

Give it a rest.

I'm happy for all my friends in all the different boats in all the classes, for having a fun, safe race and everybody makes it by bar time on Monday.

Wow. Wish I could have made it this year.

#108 barleymalt

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 11:49 AM

Fun is a relative thing Herb, stop judging others by what pegs your fun meter. I wouldn't choose a T10 but if it works for some, more power to them.

#109 More Cowbell2

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:20 PM

<br />

<br />Vanda 3 could have made it the trifecta if they sailed OD.<br />

<br />Not sure what you're saying here. Unless standings and times need tweeking yet.<br />They are 4th in their division, and had they chose to race OD instead of handicap mish-mash they'd be 2nd to Realt in that division, and that OD section. <br />Yes, they are 1st in that non-OD section.<br />What trifecta?<br />


At 38:29:14 they would be 2nd overall in the Mackinac Cup Division, making it a 1, 2, 3 J-109 finish for overall in that division

#110 Heriberto

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:36 PM

Fun is a relative thing Herb, stop judging others by what pegs your fun meter. I wouldn't choose a T10 but if it works for some, more power to them.


I'm not judging anybody, you have me totally wrong. The people who are saying you can't have fun unless you are in OD are the ones who are judging and hating.

Run what you brung. I'm good with that. Have fun and enjoy sailing whatever you got.* For me personally, yeah, I would have more fun on Peerless (or a Gunboat) than a T10. Not that I didn't enjoy the people I sailed with, but because the boat is a slow pain box and 333 miles is a long way in a pain box. I don't know how someone could say that was "subjective".

Actually, that was the original point, they had fun in their boat, and do you think they give a shit what ORR says? It's fun to win a dish, but more fun to do the race. The wind gods decreed everybody finished together and early. That's yacht racing.



* That's why I said "I'm happy for all my friends in all the different boats in all the classes, for having a fun, safe race and everybody (well, almost everybody) makes it by bar time on Monday."

#111 Heriberto

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:42 PM

<br />

<br />Vanda 3 could have made it the trifecta if they sailed OD.<br />

<br />Not sure what you're saying here. Unless standings and times need tweeking yet.<br />They are 4th in their division, and had they chose to race OD instead of handicap mish-mash they'd be 2nd to Realt in that division, and that OD section. <br />Yes, they are 1st in that non-OD section.<br />What trifecta?<br />


At 38:29:14 they would be 2nd overall in the Mackinac Cup Division, making it a 1, 2, 3 J-109 finish for overall in that division


Don't confuse people with facts like that, it's rude.

#112 Rich Frye

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:10 PM

No, fun isn't "subjective", fun is fun, and sailing a dump truck is sailing a dump truck. Stick your ass in a fucking T10 for 3 days just because it's "OD"? Been there, done that, fuck that. Racing a J105 and having the wind bring you up to the big boat parking lot is more fun than screaming for 24 hours on Peerless? Whatever, "fun is subjective".

And there is no fucking PHRF in the Mac race. That ended years ago. So no, not PHRF boat.

The stupid is really burning white hot now from all y'all. By this logic, there shouldn't be any Mac Cup or Trophy at all, because all 300+ boats weren't just two different sized piece of shit ODs. Ya gotta feel sorry for the messiahs of one design, weeping that the purity of the race is tarnished by not being done in two different classes of J-boat. How fucking sad and boring would that be?

Give it a rest.

I'm happy for all my friends in all the different boats in all the classes, for having a fun, safe race and everybody makes it by bar time on Monday.

Wow. Wish I could have made it this year.

You have ;
no reading comprehension nor sense of haiku humor
a one-off boat also
no understanding that I pointed out the need for handicaps
a superiority complex against slow boats actually being capable of creating fun
a grudge...?

#113 Rich Frye

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:12 PM

<br />

<br />Vanda 3 could have made it the trifecta if they sailed OD.<br />

<br />Not sure what you're saying here. Unless standings and times need tweeking yet.<br />They are 4th in their division, and had they chose to race OD instead of handicap mish-mash they'd be 2nd to Realt in that division, and that OD section. <br />Yes, they are 1st in that non-OD section.<br />What trifecta?<br />


At 38:29:14 they would be 2nd overall in the Mackinac Cup Division, making it a 1, 2, 3 J-109 finish for overall in that division


I see,
as I wrote , I was not sure what you were saying. Thanks for the explaination.

#114 More Cowbell2

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:16 PM

<br />

<br />

&lt;br /&gt;

&lt;br /&gt;Vanda 3 could have made it the trifecta if they sailed OD.&lt;br /&gt;

&lt;br /&gt;Not sure what you're saying here. Unless standings and times need tweeking yet.&lt;br /&gt;They are 4th in their division, and had they chose to race OD instead of handicap mish-mash they'd be 2nd to Realt in that division, and that OD section. &lt;br /&gt;Yes, they are 1st in that non-OD section.&lt;br /&gt;What trifecta?&lt;br /&gt;

<br /><br />At 38:29:14 they would be 2nd overall in the Mackinac Cup Division, making it a 1, 2, 3 J-109 finish for overall in that division<br />

<br /><br />Lot of one-off boats <b>could have</b> one at many times during the race. Fact.<br />Those guys who &quot;know what they are doing&quot; were one of those boats that <i>could have</i>...not so much <b>did</b>


Could have one what? Beer? Shot?

Oh, I see one/won.

#115 Rich Frye

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:28 PM

<br />

<br />

&lt;br /&gt;

&lt;br /&gt;Vanda 3 could have made it the trifecta if they sailed OD.&lt;br /&gt;

&lt;br /&gt;Not sure what you're saying here. Unless standings and times need tweeking yet.&lt;br /&gt;They are 4th in their division, and had they chose to race OD instead of handicap mish-mash they'd be 2nd to Realt in that division, and that OD section. &lt;br /&gt;Yes, they are 1st in that non-OD section.&lt;br /&gt;What trifecta?&lt;br /&gt;

<br /><br />At 38:29:14 they would be 2nd overall in the Mackinac Cup Division, making it a 1, 2, 3 J-109 finish for overall in that division<br />

<br /><br />Lot of one-off boats <b>could have</b> one at many times during the race. Fact.<br />Those guys who &quot;know what they are doing&quot; were one of those boats that <i>could have</i>...not so much <b>did</b>


Could have one what? Beer? Shot?

Oh, I see one/won.

Right, could have won, but for the fact they went the wrong way. Yes
Learn to quote a bit better, hurts my eyes.

#116 More Cowbell2

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:39 PM

I'll work on my quoting if you work on your homonyms.

#117 Heriberto

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:44 PM

You have ;
no reading comprehension nor sense of haiku humor
a one-off boat also
no understanding that I pointed out the need for handicaps
a superiority complex against slow boats actually being capable of creating fun
a grudge...?


no reading comprehension nor sense of haiku humor
Whatever that was wasn't haiku, and if you have to explain your humor....

a one-off boat also
Yup. But aren't all boats one-off?

no understanding that I pointed out the need for handicaps
Nope, not in that post anyway, but pardon if your signatures confused me...., but anyway, ORR isn't a handicap, it's a rating. Maybe the ratings are wrong, but they aren't handicaps.

a superiority complex against slow boats actually being capable of creating fun
Hell no, lots of slow boats are fun, lots of fast boats are no fun at all. When they're filled with douchebags. But I imagine if you ask anybody on Peerless if they would rather win in a J105 or seventh in div. in Peerless, what answer do you think you would get?

a grudge...?
Nope.

#118 Rich Frye

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:49 PM

I'll work on my quoting if you work on your homonyms.


Deal.

#119 Rich Frye

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:11 PM


You have ;
no reading comprehension nor sense of haiku humor
a one-off boat also
no understanding that I pointed out the need for handicaps
a superiority complex against slow boats actually being capable of creating fun
a grudge...?


no reading comprehension nor sense of haiku humor
Whatever that was wasn't haiku, and if you have to explain your humor....

5-7-5 , yes haiku Sport. And the stupid need explainations at times.
Ellipses come in groups of three, not four, five or ten...


a one-off boat also
Yup. But aren't all boats one-off?

No.

no understanding that I pointed out the need for handicaps
Nope, not in that post anyway, but pardon if your signatures confused me...., but anyway, ORR isn't a handicap, it's a rating. Maybe the ratings are wrong, but they aren't handicaps.

Before you get your panties either wet or in a big ol' bunch, read more than one single post.
If you'd like to get into a battle of semantics, you'll lose that one also...(three)


a superiority complex against slow boats actually being capable of creating fun
Hell no, lots of slow boats are fun, lots of fast boats are no fun at all. When they're filled with douchebags. But I imagine if you ask anybody on Peerless if they would rather win in a J105 or seventh in div. in Peerless, what answer do you think you would get?

Let's see...(three) , a fun ride with fun crew on a 105 which wins over-all or a fun ride on a "fast " boat which ends up 7th......(six) I'd take the fun ride on the slow 105 which happens to end up on The Island before the "fast" 7th place boat...(three)
But, I'd not knock the guys on the fast boat for their choice, as you have knocked the entire T-10 fleet. Congrats...




a grudge...?
Nope.

You'll have one when I'm done. If you keep up with the stupidity... ;)



#120 Grinder

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:17 PM

All right, let's knock this shit off. How about some re-cap of some races. 1st time ever I sat home & watched the tracker.
Did anyone see a fly? A smidge of Northern light?

#121 CaptnPea

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:23 PM

F... me...

From what I'm seeing this looks like it was a good one...
Everyone arriving for the party, no major parking lots for hours and hours...
No hard core squalls to scare the crap out of ya, (well actually like that for some twisted self awareness adrealine rush reason)..

This is the year that going to get off my ass next spring find a boat to crew on and get back into this thing...

#122 barleymalt

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:39 PM

F... me...

From what I'm seeing this looks like it was a good one...
Everyone arriving for the party, no major parking lots for hours and hours...
No hard core squalls to scare the crap out of ya, (well actually like that for some twisted self awareness adrealine rush reason)..

This is the year that going to get off my ass next spring find a boat to crew on and get back into this thing...


You and me both. Changed jobs and vacation time is scarce, at least for now. Watching from the sidelines blows goats.

#123 Heriberto

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:31 PM

FFS Rich,

I wasn't dissing the people, I was dissing the boat. The boat IMHO is a POS that is not all that fun to sail, I know, I raced one from Chicago to Mackinac. Many, many, many people agree. Again, if some people have fun racing in them, that's great for them. Mozoltov. Like I've said maybe five or six times now.

Whatever. Done.

I'm happy for all my friends who are now commencing to party their asses off and I'm not' I'm just working, so yeah I'm bitter. Fuck y'all!

#124 Mr. Squirrel

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:35 PM

Not that I didn't enjoy the people I sailed with, but because the boat is a slow pain box and 333 miles is a long way in a pain box. I don't know how someone could say that was "subjective".


Why are so many people in this world so fucking stupid? The race is 298 Nautical Miles long. The donkeys at CYC seem to think measuring a sailboat race in statute miles so it is over 300 miles long makes it cooler.

Get with the program....
MS

#125 Heriberto

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:45 PM


Not that I didn't enjoy the people I sailed with, but because the boat is a slow pain box and 333 miles is a long way in a pain box. I don't know how someone could say that was "subjective".


Why are so many people in this world so fucking stupid? The race is 298 Nautical Miles long. The donkeys at CYC seem to think measuring a sailboat race in statute miles so it is over 300 miles long makes it cooler.

Get with the program....
MS



Ha ha ha! Shit that's a nice rant! But to do it right, you also have to explain it's not the longest freshwater race in the world, it's the longest annual freshwater race in the world! Of course it could also be the longest freshwater race in the world that has a working website!

FWIW, I agree with you.

#126 MidPack

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:47 PM

Why are so many people in this world so fucking stupid? The race is 298 Nautical Miles long. The donkeys at CYC seem to think measuring a sailboat race in statute miles so it is over 300 miles long makes it cooler.

Get with the program....
MS

Actually it's 289 nm, or 333 statute miles stupid...;-)

#127 the other mongo

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 05:21 PM

I'm in the Cupola bar, listening to one of the crew from Ocean talking to some fudgies. This is fucking brutal to listen to.

#128 the other mongo

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 05:24 PM

I'm in the Cupola bar, listening to one of the crew from Ocean talking to some fudgies. This is fucking brutal to listen to.


Geeeezus... "it's a super-turbo"

His daughter has great tits though. Please, someone hit that hard tonight.

#129 FINS

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 05:30 PM


I'm in the Cupola bar, listening to one of the crew from Ocean talking to some fudgies. This is fucking brutal to listen to.


Geeeezus... "it's a super-turbo"

His daughter has great tits though. Please, someone hit that hard tonight.


PHOTO PLEASE!

#130 wastedandwounded

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 06:49 PM

Why are so many people in this world so fucking stupid? The race is 298 Nautical Miles long. The donkeys at CYC seem to think measuring a sailboat race in statute miles so it is over 300 miles long makes it cooler.

Get with the program....
MS

Actually it's 289 nm, or 333 statute miles stupid...;-)


Distances between Great Lakes ports are measured in statue miles rather than nautical miles, at least according to the NOAA. Anyone know the history or rationale?

#131 SailDry

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:18 PM

What were those on Natalie J thinking going to the lee of the island?



We were thinking about trying to win the race.

When we jibed away from the island we were in 10 knots of breeze doing 9 knots at Greys and crossing Equation. All of our earlier gains were on the left side of the course. There was plenty of breeze around the island heading over there and all of the gribs had more pressure in the lake. It's not like we saw lighter pressure and sailed into it, the hole formed and swallowed us. That is sailboat racing. Our gamble to go north of Beaver was working as we hooked into the SW and the rest of the fleet was in light NE. We made it north of the fleet, but then it filled in for all. Great night sailing this year downwind in breeze wearing shorts and t-shirts.

#132 ropetrick

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:38 PM


What were those on Natalie J thinking going to the lee of the island?



We were thinking about trying to win the race.

When we jibed away from the island we were in 10 knots of breeze doing 9 knots at Greys and crossing Equation. All of our earlier gains were on the left side of the course. There was plenty of breeze around the island heading over there and all of the gribs had more pressure in the lake. It's not like we saw lighter pressure and sailed into it, the hole formed and swallowed us. That is sailboat racing. Our gamble to go north of Beaver was working as we hooked into the SW and the rest of the fleet was in light NE. We made it north of the fleet, but then it filled in for all. Great night sailing this year downwind in breeze wearing shorts and t-shirts.


Play to win! I respect that.

And I also respect the way that Legend unwound the string at the finish of the Bayview Mackinac race.

Very Corinthian. Kudos!

#133 jackdaw

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:05 PM


What were those on Natalie J thinking going to the lee of the island?



We were thinking about trying to win the race.

When we jibed away from the island we were in 10 knots of breeze doing 9 knots at Greys and crossing Equation. All of our earlier gains were on the left side of the course. There was plenty of breeze around the island heading over there and all of the gribs had more pressure in the lake. It's not like we saw lighter pressure and sailed into it, the hole formed and swallowed us. That is sailboat racing. Our gamble to go north of Beaver was working as we hooked into the SW and the rest of the fleet was in light NE. We made it north of the fleet, but then it filled in for all. Great night sailing this year downwind in breeze wearing shorts and t-shirts.


Was great watching that on the brick. It went from 'good plan' to 'oh they're fucked' to 'holy shit this might work'! Well played.

#134 doghouse

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:44 AM

All right, let's knock this shit off. How about some re-cap of some races. 1st time ever I sat home & watched the tracker.
Did anyone see a fly? A smidge of Northern light?

I saw a fly.

Great night sailing this year downwind in breeze wearing shorts and t-shirts.

And that about sums it up. I did lay my foulie bottoms over me in the bunk though to keep off aforementioned fly.

#135 Lazy Guy

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 03:09 AM

Best weather - ever

#136 Polaris

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:31 AM

Best weather - ever


Agreed. Perfect sunshine and breeze, zero upwind work, bugs were mild, brilliant stars at night, couldn't ask for more. Any weather that has the little boats finishing only hours behind the players after 300 miles is priceless. I really like the idea of the touch and go drop off area at the main dock for check in, saved alot of walking and kept the dock open for others that stayed.

#137 USA190520

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:16 PM


All right, let's knock this shit off. How about some re-cap of some races. 1st time ever I sat home & watched the tracker.
Did anyone see a fly? A smidge of Northern light?

I saw a fly.

Great night sailing this year downwind in breeze wearing shorts and t-shirts.

And that about sums it up. I did lay my foulie bottoms over me in the bunk though to keep off aforementioned fly.


I had one fly inside my glasses while trimming the kite... Odd mental checklist of what to do and what not to drop, slap, release or what... It was the most controlled calculated freak out...

#138 RumBulls

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:37 PM

....Fastest 400 miles ever I've ever sailed.

#139 fetzer24

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 11:30 AM


Does anyone know what design/model is Peerless sailed by Brian Torresen in Sec 2?

More importantly, have you seen BT without a hat? Shield your children's eyes!


Easy there Jim. Mrs L doesn't seem to mind it so much.....

#140 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:48 PM

Where's the fucking peerless report bro? The StuJ Il Mostro report better not be what we're left with at the end...

did ya see the start video yet for the Peerless?

#141 fetzer24

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 02:45 PM

Where's the fucking peerless report bro? The StuJ Il Mostro report better not be what we're left with at the end...

did ya see the start video yet for the Peerless?


It's coming dude. I'll get something written up soon.

The start vid is awesome. Too bad it was hard to see us at times cause all the boats we pushed over early were blocking the camera!

#142 SailDry

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 02:53 PM


Where's the fucking peerless report bro? The StuJ Il Mostro report better not be what we're left with at the end...

did ya see the start video yet for the Peerless?


It's coming dude. I'll get something written up soon.

The start vid is awesome. Too bad it was hard to see us at times cause all the boats we pushed over early were blocking the camera!


Go the Mother F*ckin' Peerless

#143 fetzer24

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 04:51 PM



Where's the fucking peerless report bro? The StuJ Il Mostro report better not be what we're left with at the end...

did ya see the start video yet for the Peerless?


It's coming dude. I'll get something written up soon.

The start vid is awesome. Too bad it was hard to see us at times cause all the boats we pushed over early were blocking the camera!


Go the Mother F*ckin' Peerless


True Dat

#144 doghouse

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 05:04 PM

Word. Good job BT.

#145 biogrove

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 05:59 PM

We didn't realize you were in our section until we saw you in the box. And then I didn't see you again until imbibing on the back deck at the Pony. Racing against you guys is enough to drive a crew into serious drinking! Good run - damn that prod is Butch.

#146 fetzer24

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:43 PM

We didn't realize you were in our section until we saw you in the box. And then I didn't see you again until imbibing on the back deck at the Pony. Racing against you guys is enough to drive a crew into serious drinking! Good run - damn that prod is Butch.


Thanks guys...we had her rolling. When that wind gets light and aft we call it "waterbugging". It just seems to slide around on top of the water.

Bitch about that wind filling from the back end but that's yachting.

Congrats to all the winners.

#147 Brett R.

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:46 PM

Can anyone comment on why the AP ORR rating was used over the mainly downwind rating?

#148 Triceratops

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:59 PM

Can anyone comment on why the AP ORR rating was used over the mainly downwind rating?

weather forcast before the race were for upwind and downwind, not one or the other.

#149 Polaris

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:19 PM

Can anyone comment on why the AP ORR rating was used over the mainly downwind rating?


It doesn't matter, we all still had to give time to the J boats either way..

#150 oneguyfromdetroit

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:50 PM


Can anyone comment on why the AP ORR rating was used over the mainly downwind rating?

weather forcast before the race were for upwind and downwind, not one or the other.


I wonder why they don't wait until we actually sail the race to select the course configuration.

The SI's call for a selection to be made for each division, so if the faster boat division had say, mostly, or all offwind, and the slower division had enough upwind to justify the General Purpose rating, you could rate both divisions based on what they actually sailed.

I've had informal conversation about this with CYC folks, who say they select the configuration in advance in order to not be subject to accusations of picking a configuration that favors any one boat. It's too bad really, I'd rather have it based on the actual race conditions sailed.

Question: Since CYC started using ORR, and/or it's predecessor (if it had multiple course configurations), has CYC ever picked the configuration after the race has been sailed, and if so, what, if any issues resulted.

#151 USA190520

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:00 PM


Can anyone comment on why the AP ORR rating was used over the mainly downwind rating?


It doesn't matter, we all still had to give time to the J boats either way..


Not all Jboats...

#152 Polaris

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:09 PM



Can anyone comment on why the AP ORR rating was used over the mainly downwind rating?


It doesn't matter, we all still had to give time to the J boats either way..


Not all Jboats...


80% of the top 10 in Division, 60% of the top 25. How about a majority of?

#153 boyscout

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:15 PM

Where's the fucking peerless report bro? The StuJ Il Mostro report better not be what we're left with at the end...

did ya see the start video yet for the Peerless?



Speaking of I'm not sure what race Stu was doing but last I check our sail f-up was all cleared up in 15 min ( our top down furling A0 got sucked in to the Mast head genoa) and the largest lead they had on Windquest was 13 miles that we closed to an hour at the finish not "a few hours later" as in his report.

#154 Brett R.

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:25 PM



Can anyone comment on why the AP ORR rating was used over the mainly downwind rating?

weather forcast before the race were for upwind and downwind, not one or the other.


I wonder why they don't wait until we actually sail the race to select the course configuration.

The SI's call for a selection to be made for each division, so if the faster boat division had say, mostly, or all offwind, and the slower division had enough upwind to justify the General Purpose rating, you could rate both divisions based on what they actually sailed.

I've had informal conversation about this with CYC folks, who say they select the configuration in advance in order to not be subject to accusations of picking a configuration that favors any one boat. It's too bad really, I'd rather have it based on the actual race conditions sailed.

Question: Since CYC started using ORR, and/or it's predecessor (if it had multiple course configurations), has CYC ever picked the configuration after the race has been sailed, and if so, what, if any issues resulted.


Interesting... x2 on having the selection reflect actual course conditions.

#155 Great_lakes_racer

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 10:22 PM


Where's the fucking peerless report bro? The StuJ Il Mostro report better not be what we're left with at the end...

did ya see the start video yet for the Peerless?



Speaking of I'm not sure what race Stu was doing but last I check our sail f-up was all cleared up in 15 min ( our top down furling A0 got sucked in to the Mast head genoa) and the largest lead they had on Windquest was 13 miles that we closed to an hour at the finish not "a few hours later" as in his report.



Brian, perhaps Yellowbrick was wrong? Here are the DTFs at various times on Sunday

13:48:19 Sunday
DTF: Windquest- 92.6, Il Mostro 72.7
Il Mostro ahead by 19.9 nm

14:43:25
DTF: Windquest 89.2, Il Mostro 67.1
Il Mostro ahead by 22.1 nm

21:39:53
DTF Windquest 50.2, Il Mostro 29.2
Il Mostro ahead by 21 nm

I don't have a bone to pick here with anyone, just thought I recalled Il Mostro being ahead by more than 13 miles so I figured I should double check.

#156 oneguyfromdetroit

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:58 AM

2012 Chicago Mac race report – Fast Tango, section 7

Saturday morning greeted us with very light breeze; after doing the Navy Pier fly-by and RC boat check in, proceeded to the starting area. On the way, 3 of the crew dove in to wash the bottom, which had been powerwashed less than 2 weeks ago, when hauled out prior to the BYC Mac. Much to our chagrin, there was some keel damage from banging on the bottom, while tied up, during the northerly breeze Thursday and Friday. (The crew moved the boat eventually, but the damage had been done). Nothing to do about it now, so let’s focus on our race.

Since it was light, and I wanted to stay close to the start, I timed our entrance to the box (10 minutes before our start, as allowed), and upon entering, at about 9:59, was immediately told to leave by a patrol boat who threw up a big wake. Once we explained to them we were starting next, they left us alone. With 5 minutes to go to our start, and the wind down to about 1-2 knots, we tacked to starboard (about 6-7 boat lengths to the RC boat), to make our final approach. Before doing so, we hailed the approaching windward boat (a baby blue boat named ‘Program’), which appeared to be motoring (with the main up), in the restricted starting 'box' area, that we needed to tack to start. Not only did they ignore us (or were not keeping a proper watch), they actually altered course such that in the middle of our tack, we were bow to bow. I tacked back, lost all speed, and got a lame ‘sorry’ from the helm of Program. You sir, are a douche.

Consequently, we were late for our start. But we did win the J105 start, and slowly made our way away from the line. We started with the genoa, and within minutes were freed up enough to fly the A kite. Many in our class started similarly late, but the two boats I was most worried about, Velero VII and Smokum Too, were ahead of us. We were first to fly the A kite, and ST followed shortly after. Much to our surprise, we seemed to have just a little bit of speed on ST, albeit part of that was due to sailing a slightly higher angle. V VII doesn’t like to fly their A kite, and went with a symmetrical kite, which at that angle, was not as fast as our, or ST’s A kites. Soon, the three of us were leading our class, with ST to the west, V VII to the east, and us in the middle. At this point, there was very little lateral distance between the three of us.

By 2100, ST and FT were neck and neck, with ST a mile to the west, and V VII dead astern by 2 nm.

At 0400 Sunday, FT had opened up a 3 mile lead on ST, and V VII had dropped back to 5th place, behind Absolute and Aegir.

By 0530 Sunday morning, we were at a critical point in our race; we had over a 2nm lead on ST, and were about 2nm east of her (I know this from the race review of Yellowbrick after the race. At the time, we did not have a signal, and could not see YB. We were still about 7-8 miles offshore, approaching Little Sable Point. As the sun came up, the lake looked hazy and flat to the west of us, and east of us was breeze, with clouds forming over the shoreline. ST started sailing a more northerly course, while we were sailing just east of north. By 0830 Sunday, we were looking good; we’d opened up a 5 nm lead on ST, who, while falling back, had also moved to a position south, and 5 miles west of us. By the time we passed Big Sable Point at 1000, only a mile offshore, ST had taken almost 1nm out of our lead. We discussed heading west, and decided not to, as it was still light, glassy, and less pressured up than where we were, closer to shore. Little did we know it, but this decision cost us the race. By 1130, ST had moved more north, and had cut our lead to under 2nm, and, had moved to a position about 6nm west of us. Apparently, ST liked the move, as they turned left, and headed out for more breeze. We stubbornly held to our northerly course, thinking ‘we couldn’t get there from here’.

At 1421, our lead was a scant .10 nm. While acknowledging we’d made a mistake by not hedging further west, we also rationalized that since most of our class was to the south and east of us, we’d done the conservative thing. However, we weren’t worried nearly so much about the rest of our class as we were about ST, which is a well sailed boat that always does well. And, by 1548, ST was .20 nm ahead, and, Vesalius was making a move to the west as well.

Approaching Point Betsie, the bleeding continued for Fast Tango. ST had a 4nm lead, and Vesalius was .8nm ahead of us. Damn, I know not to get too close to the Michigan shore, and yet here we were, learning the lesson once again. Oh well, there’s always the parking lot, right?

Going thru the Manitous, ST maintained their approximately 4nm lead, and there was no parking lot in sight. The two of us had legged out on the rest of our class, with the 3rd place boat, V VII about 5nm behind. By sunrise, ST was still 4nm ahead, there was no parking lot insight, and we’d gained another 1nm on the rest of our class. Once ST rounded the bell bouy and turned toward the barn, she romped, opening up her lead while we were still in Grays Reef Passage. By the time ST passed under the bridge, she’d opened up a 6.9nm lead on us. We did enjoy a glorious heavy air run on FT, getting the old girl to hit 9-10 regularly (yes, an NA 40 can benefit from waves, although I’d be being generous to describe it as surfing), and hit an 11 once. This was registered on the GPS, as speed over ground, so perhaps there was some current push as well.

As it turns out, Smokum Too won, and they deserved to, making the move to the west and taking back our lead and then some. We placed second, 10 minutes behind, which is close enough to start thinking about how we could’ve made up 10 minutes up during the course of the race.

Velero VII placed third, confirming that we’d been correct about which boats in our class to be most concerned with. And that’s why we sail these races. We’re looking forward to our next match-up with Smokum Too, and everyone else in the fleet as well.

With both Mac races finished, Fast Tango sits in Mackinaw city, where we will depart for the North Channel tomorrow. We will do our best to avoid any international incidents.

#157 Jibe Ho!

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:37 PM

Does anyone know why Vanda III raced ORR?

That was my 10th Mac... an AMAZING experience to sail in shorts and t-shirt for the entire race. All things being equal, I am willing to bet the next 10 Macs are going to be 6' seas out of the East with 5kt winds out of the Northeast... :blink:

#158 From the Helm

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:45 PM




Can anyone comment on why the AP ORR rating was used over the mainly downwind rating?


It doesn't matter, we all still had to give time to the J boats either way..


Not all Jboats...


80% of the top 10 in Division, 60% of the top 25. How about a majority of?


First of all there are a lot of J-Boats.
Second, they are sailed by a lot of good teams.
Third, not all of them, maybe any of them, have a sweetheart rating.
There was very little pole back running in this race so it favored boats that can reach.
I was on one of those reaching machines, unfortunately we also give time to all but the Fucking Peerless, and those guys smoked us and deserved a 1st place.
I think it's funny that I'm on a J-Boat and gotten my ass handed to me by a slower but very well sailed J-Boat, good job Sufficient Reason.

L8r

#159 doghouse

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 04:05 PM

Third, not all of them, maybe any of them, have a sweetheart rating.


:lol:

#160 Rich Frye

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:17 PM





Can anyone comment on why the AP ORR rating was used over the mainly downwind rating?


It doesn't matter, we all still had to give time to the J boats either way..


Not all Jboats...


80% of the top 10 in Division, 60% of the top 25. How about a majority of?


First of all there are a lot of J-Boats.
Second, they are sailed by a lot of good teams.
Third, not all of them, maybe any of them, have a sweetheart rating.
There was very little pole back running in this race so it favored boats that can reach.
I was on one of those reaching machines, unfortunately we also give time to all but the Fucking Peerless, and those guys smoked us and deserved a 1st place.
I think it's funny that I'm on a J-Boat and gotten my ass handed to me by a slower but very well sailed J-Boat, good job Sufficient Reason.

L8r



...also quite of few of those Js have actual OD classes. And those who chose/choose to race on them care more about good competative OD racing that fleet ratings.
How many J boat owners bought their boat to win the Mac?
How many boats were brought and crews were bought to win line honors? ;)

#161 Skull & Bones

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:40 PM


Where's the fucking peerless report bro? The StuJ Il Mostro report better not be what we're left with at the end...

did ya see the start video yet for the Peerless?



Speaking of I'm not sure what race Stu was doing but last I check our sail f-up was all cleared up in 15 min ( our top down furling A0 got sucked in to the Mast head genoa) and the largest lead they had on Windquest was 13 miles that we closed to an hour at the finish not "a few hours later" as in his report.

It's always something isn't it? Beau Geste had same kind of lead on you guys in 2010...just sayin'

#162 Rich Frye

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:03 AM

If you think that the reason ALL the J Boats owners bought their boats was to win the Mac, you're high.
If you think ALL the bought and brought crews and boats came to win line honors, you're also high.
High it is.

#163 Hrothgar

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:19 PM

Does anyone know why Vanda III raced ORR?

That was my 10th Mac... an AMAZING experience to sail in shorts and t-shirt for the entire race. All things being equal, I am willing to bet the next 10 Macs are going to be 6' seas out of the East with 5kt winds out of the Northeast... :blink:


We were in Section 5 with Vanda and were bemused by their decision. In talking wit them at the party, a different story emerged. Apparently they wanted to sail one-design but also wanted to use a Code 0 if necessary (which I suspect is a no-no in one-design). The CYC measurement committee apparently voted 5-4 to disallow them to use the Code 0 in the J109 section thus placing them in Section 5 where their rating fit best.

Frankly something doesn't add up. If you want to sail one-design, you have to agree to the rules. Why would you insist on breaking a rule (I think) and still be eligible to sail in the class. Just sounds fishy to me.

The result was clear, this was a sprit-boat race and Vanda crushed Section 5. I recall after the start that the J109s were through us like a hot knife through butter within hours of the start and thinking that the race for Section 5 was already over because no one was going to hang with Vanda.

Our ride was great though. Best Mac ever.

Hroth

#164 REW

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:53 PM


Does anyone know why Vanda III raced ORR?

That was my 10th Mac... an AMAZING experience to sail in shorts and t-shirt for the entire race. All things being equal, I am willing to bet the next 10 Macs are going to be 6' seas out of the East with 5kt winds out of the Northeast... :blink:


We were in Section 5 with Vanda and were bemused by their decision. In talking wit them at the party, a different story emerged. Apparently they wanted to sail one-design but also wanted to use a Code 0 if necessary (which I suspect is a no-no in one-design). The CYC measurement committee apparently voted 5-4 to disallow them to use the Code 0 in the J109 section thus placing them in Section 5 where their rating fit best.

Frankly something doesn't add up. If you want to sail one-design, you have to agree to the rules. Why would you insist on breaking a rule (I think) and still be eligible to sail in the class. Just sounds fishy to me.

The result was clear, this was a sprit-boat race and Vanda crushed Section 5. I recall after the start that the J109s were through us like a hot knife through butter within hours of the start and thinking that the race for Section 5 was already over because no one was going to hang with Vanda.

Our ride was great though. Best Mac ever.

Hroth


Your story is wrong. It is a class issue as far as what sails are allowed or not, not a CYC measurement committee (which is a committee of one) issue. The class didn't allow code zeros.

REW

#165 Hrothgar

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:08 PM



Does anyone know why Vanda III raced ORR?

That was my 10th Mac... an AMAZING experience to sail in shorts and t-shirt for the entire race. All things being equal, I am willing to bet the next 10 Macs are going to be 6' seas out of the East with 5kt winds out of the Northeast... :blink:


We were in Section 5 with Vanda and were bemused by their decision. In talking wit them at the party, a different story emerged. Apparently they wanted to sail one-design but also wanted to use a Code 0 if necessary (which I suspect is a no-no in one-design). The CYC measurement committee apparently voted 5-4 to disallow them to use the Code 0 in the J109 section thus placing them in Section 5 where their rating fit best.

Frankly something doesn't add up. If you want to sail one-design, you have to agree to the rules. Why would you insist on breaking a rule (I think) and still be eligible to sail in the class. Just sounds fishy to me.

The result was clear, this was a sprit-boat race and Vanda crushed Section 5. I recall after the start that the J109s were through us like a hot knife through butter within hours of the start and thinking that the race for Section 5 was already over because no one was going to hang with Vanda.

Our ride was great though. Best Mac ever.

Hroth


Your story is wrong. It is a class issue as far as what sails are allowed or not, not a CYC measurement committee (which is a committee of one) issue. The class didn't allow code zeros.

REW

Yep. I figured something was up. Sounds like had they truly wanted to sail one-design, they could have. Just goes to show you never believe everything you hear at a party!

Hroth

#166 Jibe Ho!

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:27 AM




Does anyone know why Vanda III raced ORR?

That was my 10th Mac... an AMAZING experience to sail in shorts and t-shirt for the entire race. All things being equal, I am willing to bet the next 10 Macs are going to be 6' seas out of the East with 5kt winds out of the Northeast... :blink:


We were in Section 5 with Vanda and were bemused by their decision. In talking wit them at the party, a different story emerged. Apparently they wanted to sail one-design but also wanted to use a Code 0 if necessary (which I suspect is a no-no in one-design). The CYC measurement committee apparently voted 5-4 to disallow them to use the Code 0 in the J109 section thus placing them in Section 5 where their rating fit best.

Frankly something doesn't add up. If you want to sail one-design, you have to agree to the rules. Why would you insist on breaking a rule (I think) and still be eligible to sail in the class. Just sounds fishy to me.

The result was clear, this was a sprit-boat race and Vanda crushed Section 5. I recall after the start that the J109s were through us like a hot knife through butter within hours of the start and thinking that the race for Section 5 was already over because no one was going to hang with Vanda.

Our ride was great though. Best Mac ever.

Hroth


Your story is wrong. It is a class issue as far as what sails are allowed or not, not a CYC measurement committee (which is a committee of one) issue. The class didn't allow code zeros.

REW

Yep. I figured something was up. Sounds like had they truly wanted to sail one-design, they could have. Just goes to show you never believe everything you hear at a party!

Hroth


Well, if they HAD a Code 0, wouldn't it effect their rating? They raced in Section 5 under ORR, yet their handicap was the same as the J109 OD section. I know there is a massive (relatively) penalty for carrying the Code 0 under PHRF. So this begs the question; Did Vanda III sail ORR with an undeclared sail? Because if they didn't have it, they just could have raced OD (they would have no reason to race HDCP, why would they bother?.) If they HAD it, and it was not declared sail inventory, then that is a BIG issue. Of course, as messed up as ORR is, they may have been told by the measurer "Oh, don't sweat it, no time hit at all."

#167 fetzer24

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:08 PM





Does anyone know why Vanda III raced ORR?

That was my 10th Mac... an AMAZING experience to sail in shorts and t-shirt for the entire race. All things being equal, I am willing to bet the next 10 Macs are going to be 6' seas out of the East with 5kt winds out of the Northeast... :blink:


We were in Section 5 with Vanda and were bemused by their decision. In talking wit them at the party, a different story emerged. Apparently they wanted to sail one-design but also wanted to use a Code 0 if necessary (which I suspect is a no-no in one-design). The CYC measurement committee apparently voted 5-4 to disallow them to use the Code 0 in the J109 section thus placing them in Section 5 where their rating fit best.

Frankly something doesn't add up. If you want to sail one-design, you have to agree to the rules. Why would you insist on breaking a rule (I think) and still be eligible to sail in the class. Just sounds fishy to me.

The result was clear, this was a sprit-boat race and Vanda crushed Section 5. I recall after the start that the J109s were through us like a hot knife through butter within hours of the start and thinking that the race for Section 5 was already over because no one was going to hang with Vanda.

Our ride was great though. Best Mac ever.

Hroth


Your story is wrong. It is a class issue as far as what sails are allowed or not, not a CYC measurement committee (which is a committee of one) issue. The class didn't allow code zeros.

REW

Yep. I figured something was up. Sounds like had they truly wanted to sail one-design, they could have. Just goes to show you never believe everything you hear at a party!

Hroth


Well, if they HAD a Code 0, wouldn't it effect their rating? They raced in Section 5 under ORR, yet their handicap was the same as the J109 OD section. I know there is a massive (relatively) penalty for carrying the Code 0 under PHRF. So this begs the question; Did Vanda III sail ORR with an undeclared sail? Because if they didn't have it, they just could have raced OD (they would have no reason to race HDCP, why would they bother?.) If they HAD it, and it was not declared sail inventory, then that is a BIG issue. Of course, as messed up as ORR is, they may have been told by the measurer "Oh, don't sweat it, no time hit at all."


There is no penalty in PHRF or ORR if it has a 75% or larger mid-girth. It just knocks them out of their OD configuration.




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