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#1 lelou

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:37 AM

Hello there

I've been lurking for the past days, delighted to read the words and rants of Bob, whose work I have admired for decades, and all the other cruising anarchists here. I don't know exactly where to throw around the idea I have, but I'll first explain where I come from and what I'm looking for.

The first boat I owned was a Super Calin, Super Cuddler in French, it's a 6.5 m Mini, less than a ton, 2.8 m wide, running backstay boat made for solo racing accross the Atlantic. The year I was sailing this boat it was doing very well in the Med where there is often too much wind or too little. It's a cosy boat for a cruise, if 3 of the 6 authorized headsails are offloaded. It's fun to catch up to the 50 ft cruisers in a 21 ft hard chined soap box. There are 4 bunks, a real chart table and two buckets: the sink and the head, just remember which one has the knots. The burner works well heeled, and I cruised engineless in the Med for 10 days with my non-sailor girlfriend. I even got to sail one night with her. I did a couple of awesome 500 mile races on the Med (with a crew), to and from Corsica.

I sold the Super Calin a the end of the season and had kids. Now, 7 years down the road, married (to the same girl, she's a keeper), 2 kids, I'm wondering if I'm the only one looking for a new way to race. I now crew on a Shark, a 24 ft 3 person classic keelboat that looks sleek. I do either fore-deck or pit, find fore-deck quite boring on a boat that small, as there is not much to do. Sunday two weeks ago was frustrating. Canadian champs, the wind was good, 3 to 18 knots, oscillating 120 degrees and staying within 30 degrees less than 5 minutes. An awesome day for a long distance race, setting was the Ottawa river, awesome place for a distance race. But no race at all. All we get is windward leeward. If the boats can't cross the line on both tacks, the start sequence is aborted, so we go four hours of trying to get a race started.

I also own a Lightning. It's a heavy dinghy, allows the whole family to sail and it's a good way for the 3 others in my family to become sailors. But I'm looking for a different style of racing. Really enjoyed the 500 mile stuff.

I've been looking at the Seascape 27 on this site and the size seems OK. I'm not sure I want to bother with the rotating keel, though and the 4'10 fixed keel of the Super Calin seemed pretty perfect to me.

My ideal boat: why not a full/scow bow like David Raison's mini, a 7' 6" beam to go straight into a container, a length that allows it to stay below 2500-3000 lbs, class rules against electric auto-pilot - mandatory wind vane self-steering (on a narrow boat this should be OK). Something like this for steering: http://www.capehorn.com/index.html A hard chine from 30% of the length (to increase righting moment and directional stability). The chine would be at max beam, but the waterline would be much narrower. A cockpit with 22" between benches (from Bob's comment a few post back). A tiller.

I've sailed Fireballs enough to notice that the flat bow boats do not get as much heel induced weather helm, so the wind vane should cope.

An outboard stored in a cockpit locker when sailing will do. I'd like it to be faster than a Mini - don't know if it's possible with the narrower hull. The fixed keel should be "unfixable", but I don't think trunk and lifting mechanism are acceptable. J24's are able to move about, that's OK, the boat I'm thinking about could have a system like the Zero (another Mini, designed by Lombard) where the keel has a bulb at the bottom and a T plate at the top, screwed by keel bolts inside the boat. Unscrew the bolts, push on the keel and the boat can be stored lower.

I'd use a boat like that like I use my Lightning: 2/3 cruising and 1/3 racing.

The limited electronics should help keep the costs down and the fun up. No big auto-pilot allowed means no generator required on board for the long distance stuff. The limited beam and "collapsable" draft would allow container shipping, which would simplify logistics.

Ah, the dreams we have...

LeLou

#2 Soņadora

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:51 AM

I think if you rub the magic genie lamp, A designer might appear who could set you up just right...

#3 Tom Ray

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:25 AM

1. 2 year old newb tits?

2. Take it to Sailing Anarchy.

3. Possibly the Left Coast Dart?

#4 Greever

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:51 AM

1. 2 year old newb tits?




Uummm, yah, he's been here long enough to know about providing pics of sweaterpuppies.......

#5 jackdaw

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:01 PM

LeLou,

Wow that's quite a requirements list. As a fellow fan of fast french downwind things, I can understand your interest in the Seascape. I've been following the development as well. Are you in Canada now? I'm not sure Seascape has a NA distributor yet. An Elan 210 is a good choice but of course small. Maybe some of the new/smaller J-boat? Some might be close but you need to get close to 30 feet (J92) become you get any real type of accommodation. If 30 feet is OK, maybe a Pogo 30?

As Sons has noted I'm sure Bob could sort you out just fine. Maybe he already has. Flying Tiger 10?? There is one close (Chicago) for sale.

#6 lelou

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:38 PM

I registered two years ago but lost the interest and the login.
I'll show you legs (along with my older son's, that picture is a few years old):

http://www.flickr.co...lou/2617508415/

It's not just the boat that's missing, it the type of event. It also has to be a one design.

Tom - Left coast Dart looks great, but the 6 ft draft wont fit in the 4 yacht clubs close to home where I could sail out. It's also missing space for cooking, and the protection from the elements is pretty basic.

Jack - took a long look at the 25.7 - seems close to what I am looking for. Yes I'm in Canada now.

It has to be a one design too - not sure yet if it should be developmental - box rule or other or strict. There may be room for a FT 8.5 with what I am looking for, but the current ones aren't there.

It's quite a misconception that the French Minis are downwind sleds, they go very fast upwind too, they're super stable and easy on the helm in all conditions. The autopilot never works very hard. They do pound in chop but they have so much horsepower they accelerate between waves. Not that different from the Lightning.

Etienne

#7 jackdaw

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:40 PM

Jack - took a long look at the 25.7 - seems close to what I am looking for. Yes I'm in Canada now.


The 25.7 is a fun boat but maybe too heavy (5000 lbs) to be truly fast. Beneteau just announced a refresh for it called the First 25S. Same hull, but with Squaretop main and no backstay. Asym prod. Traveler now standard and on the transom, fixing one of the shortcomings of the boat. No word on NA availability. I'm guessing no.

But is truly comfortable for two on 5 day outings. A lot of boat for 25 feet.

#8 Steam Flyer

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

You're right on, there is not a sportboat or sportboat-ish weekender with a good OD class in North America. The J-80 is probably the closest thing, and it's usually considered a dump truck by sportboat sailors. They're coming out with the J-70 which they're claiming will be a bit more sporty and easier to trailer.

Have you seen the Rocket 22? Again, no one-design class but a very cool boat with lots of potential... geography is probably the main reason I don't have one myself, the few are concentrated in the PacNW.

The Left Coast Dart and the Flying Tiger 7.5 have been mentioned, how about the Ultimate 20? None have scow-bows though. Outside of the scowbilly churches, most people like their boats to be pointy at the front so I don't see such a thing becoming a big one-design class.

Or you could get a real Mini, there are a couple for sale here now.

FB- Doug

#9 Tom Ray

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

I registered two years ago but lost the interest and the login.
I'll show you legs (along with my older son's, that picture is a few years old):

http://www.flickr.co...lou/2617508415/


Good Lord, Man! We're supposed to JOKE about pictures of family members, not actually post them. She's pretty and it's a great photo, but no woman can be convinced of those two things w/respect to a photo in which she actually appears. You're doomed if she shows up here! ;)

#10 lelou

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:52 PM


I registered two years ago but lost the interest and the login.
I'll show you legs (along with my older son's, that picture is a few years old):

http://www.flickr.co...lou/2617508415/


Good Lord, Man! We're supposed to JOKE about pictures of family members, not actually post them. She's pretty and it's a great photo, but no woman can be convinced of those two things w/respect to a photo in which she actually appears. You're doomed if she shows up here! ;)


She approved the photo before posting publicly years ago.

The mini is a great boat to sail. The Zero has been high on my list since I met Leo. It has limitations that wouldn't cost much to eliminate:
  • Hatch at the back is annoying.
  • Running backstays
  • New designs are not cruising oriented (Zero, original Pogo and Super Calin were cozy inside. More modern ones not.)
  • No cored hulls allowed
  • Length and width make berthing in marina slips complicated
  • Width make trailering difficult
  • Helm often gives little feedback
  • Could it be trusted with vane steering ? - to be competitive, the hydraulic expensive energy guzzling auto-pilot is necessary.
  • Inside headroom (I'd appreciate a few more inches)


#11 Tom Ray

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:37 PM

I think you may have to invent the boat of your dreams.

#12 Tucky

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:21 PM

Consider a Farrier/Corsair multihull if you are willing to give up on the OD aspect. There aren't that many of us, but when you are so far to one end of the monohull spectrum you are getting close to multihulls.

Trailerable and you can launch and rig without help.
Aft cabin model is plenty big for you and your family.
Faster, except in extreme downwind conditions when you will back the multihull off.

My 31 is offshore capable- check this story of one doing the Round Britain race in heavy air.

http://www.f-boat.co...undBritain.html

#13 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:21 PM

"No cored hulls"?

Have you looked at a Rawson 30?

#14 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:01 PM

Ok I was being a smart ass.
But you are going to have trouble finding the type of boat you have been talking about without it having a cored hull. Maybe you should do a bit more research and narrow down the options that don;t have cored hulls. It will be a very short list.

#15 lelou

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:07 PM

Consider a Farrier/Corsair multihull if you are willing to give up on the OD aspect. There aren't that many of us, but when you are so far to one end of the monohull spectrum you are getting close to multihulls.

Trailerable and you can launch and rig without help.
Aft cabin model is plenty big for you and your family.
Faster, except in extreme downwind conditions when you will back the multihull off.

My 31 is offshore capable- check this story of one doing the Round Britain race in heavy air.

http://www.f-boat.co...undBritain.html


As stated, there is always equipment, food and water to carry, and multies aren't good in the cost to load carrying ratio.

"No cored hulls"?

Have you looked at a Rawson 30?



The Mini class rules for series boats allow for monolithic fiberglass or wood as hull materials. The coach has to be bigger. The protos can have what they want, but with a 2 m keel, it's too deep for me.

Rawson : with a full keel ? Looks pretty.



#16 SemiSalt

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:16 PM

"No cored hulls"?


Maybe he can ratchet back and decide that some cores are acceptable, and some are not. For example: no balsa cores. Or, maybe better, he can go by the reputation of a particular model.

#17 hobot

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:32 PM


Consider a Farrier/Corsair multihull if you are willing to give up on the OD aspect. There aren't that many of us, but when you are so far to one end of the monohull spectrum you are getting close to multihulls.

Trailerable and you can launch and rig without help.
Aft cabin model is plenty big for you and your family.
Faster, except in extreme downwind conditions when you will back the multihull off.

My 31 is offshore capable- check this story of one doing the Round Britain race in heavy air.

http://www.f-boat.co...undBritain.html


As stated, there is always equipment, food and water to carry, and multies aren't good in the cost to load carrying ratio.

"No cored hulls"?

Have you looked at a Rawson 30?



The Mini class rules for series boats allow for monolithic fiberglass or wood as hull materials. The coach has to be bigger. The protos can have what they want, but with a 2 m keel, it's too deep for me.

Rawson : with a full keel ? Looks pretty.


Well, that didn't go in the direction I thought it would.

#18 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:35 PM

Hobs:
Sometimes you have to put some Stink'um on your lure.

#19 lelou

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:04 PM


Consider a Farrier/Corsair multihull if you are willing to give up on the OD aspect. There aren't that many of us, but when you are so far to one end of the monohull spectrum you are getting close to multihulls.

Trailerable and you can launch and rig without help.
Aft cabin model is plenty big for you and your family.
Faster, except in extreme downwind conditions when you will back the multihull off.

My 31 is offshore capable- check this story of one doing the Round Britain race in heavy air.

http://www.f-boat.co...undBritain.html


As stated, there is always equipment, food and water to carry, and multies aren't good in the cost to load carrying ratio.

"No cored hulls"?

Have you looked at a Rawson 30?



The Mini class rules for series boats allow for monolithic fiberglass or wood as hull materials. The coach has to be bigger. The protos can have what they want, but with a 2 m keel, it's too deep for me.

Rawson : with a full keel ? Looks pretty.


The cored hull comment was meant the other way around. I find it sad to buy a 50 000 $ 21 ft sport-cruising boat with an uncored hull just because of class rules. I think something better can be done with a cored hull.

Makes me reflect on how people read - the "no cored hull" comment is in the list of annoyances...

#20 PNW Matt B

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:10 PM

Writing, and with it reading, is a type of communication. Neither one can happen in a vacuum, and both bear a responsibility for the clarity and effectiveness of the communication involved. So while you're wondering about how some people read, you also need to take a close look at the other end of the communication.

Hint: "I find it sad to buy a 50 000 $ 21 ft sport-blah blah" does not make sense. I had to re-read it three times to figure out WTF you were talking about. And I assure you my reading comprehension is just fine.

#21 lelou

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:48 PM

Writing, and with it reading, is a type of communication. Neither one can happen in a vacuum, and both bear a responsibility for the clarity and effectiveness of the communication involved. So while you're wondering about how some people read, you also need to take a close look at the other end of the communication.

Hint: "I find it sad to buy a 50 000 $ 21 ft sport-blah blah" does not make sense. I had to re-read it three times to figure out WTF you were talking about. And I assure you my reading comprehension is just fine.


Humbling, thanks. Sorry to Bob, my fault communication was bad.

My purpose is not to find a boat now but to bounce ideas about a small one that could go far and fast, sort of the other side of all the gorgeous daysailers coming out these days. A rant about sex in the cabin comes to me - my older son was conceived in the cabin of the MT.

- Cored is good.
- Running backstays are OK, but the mast has to stay up if they are all released in a 30 knot downwind with the chute up.
- Short modern jibs are good. The code 0 will be flown from 55 deg true wind in a drifter anyway.
- Cabin needs real sea going berths, the kind you don't fall out of
- Low maintenance
- Keel with 4'10" draft max.
- Narrow is good - easier to park in a berth. I had to pay for a 30' boat berth with my 21' MT because of the width. I also talked about containers, but that'll happen when 50 boats gather in Valencia for the world champs.

- Need to cook on board. Delicious food can be made on one burner when good ingredients are accessible. Some of the best food I ever ate was on my boat - when you're hungry...

-Let's be crazy and say that one burner should be attached to the table and both could work inside or outside.

- Low power requirements is good - hydraulic auto-pilot with gyroscope is bad.

But the conclusion may be that I'm the only one thinking or wanting a simple boat like that. In that case I'll buy myself an Alberg 30, they're more common on our side...

#22 TheFlash

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:54 PM

Really, check out the corsair F27.

#23 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:56 PM

No problem Le. I should have taken the time to read your post more carefully. It was a bit confusing. My bad.

But really, going from a sport boat type to an Alberg 30? I find that quite odd.
"Let's see, I'm torn between the Porsche Carrera and the '57 Buick Roadmaster."

#24 Thorvald

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:38 PM


Writing, and with it reading, is a type of communication. Neither one can happen in a vacuum, and both bear a responsibility for the clarity and effectiveness of the communication involved. So while you're wondering about how some people read, you also need to take a close look at the other end of the communication.

Hint: "I find it sad to buy a 50 000 $ 21 ft sport-blah blah" does not make sense. I had to re-read it three times to figure out WTF you were talking about. And I assure you my reading comprehension is just fine.


Humbling, thanks. Sorry to Bob, my fault communication was bad.

My purpose is not to find a boat now but to bounce ideas about a small one that could go far and fast, sort of the other side of all the gorgeous daysailers coming out these days. A rant about sex in the cabin comes to me - my older son was conceived in the cabin of the MT.

- Cored is good.
- Running backstays are OK, but the mast has to stay up if they are all released in a 30 knot downwind with the chute up.
- Short modern jibs are good. The code 0 will be flown from 55 deg true wind in a drifter anyway.
- Cabin needs real sea going berths, the kind you don't fall out of
- Low maintenance
- Keel with 4'10" draft max.
- Narrow is good - easier to park in a berth. I had to pay for a 30' boat berth with my 21' MT because of the width. I also talked about containers, but that'll happen when 50 boats gather in Valencia for the world champs.

- Need to cook on board. Delicious food can be made on one burner when good ingredients are accessible. Some of the best food I ever ate was on my boat - when you're hungry...

-Let's be crazy and say that one burner should be attached to the table and both could work inside or outside.

- Low power requirements is good - hydraulic auto-pilot with gyroscope is bad.

But the conclusion may be that I'm the only one thinking or wanting a simple boat like that. In that case I'll buy myself an Alberg 30, they're more common on our side...


You're talking my language. I just went in partners on a Dash 34. 30 year old boat but, light, fractional rig, quite fast, pretty basic boat, headroom if you're not too tall. Sails like a dream. The PO removed the permanent backstay and added a main with alot of roach. Very effective, but that backstay is going back on. I'm with you on the running backs OK, but,,,, statement. We sail with the oversized main and small headsails. A 140% is our largest and the J is only 11.5' on a 34 footer. I was actually thinking of starting a thread regarding the use of bendy fracs on cruising boats. I think its a cool idea. Great for changing gears, especially if they're made relatively foolproof as you indicate.Think about all those T-birds that have been cruising the Northwest for 50+ years now! This sort of ties onto WHL's thread regarding POGO's as cruisers too. We may not be talking bluewater cruising, especially in my own case, but for the cruising we do around the Salish I think it's almost ideal. So no, you're definitely not the only one!

#25 PNW Matt B

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:35 PM

You're talking my language. I just went in partners on a Dash 34. 30 year old boat but, light, fractional rig, quite fast, pretty basic boat, headroom if you're not too tall. Sails like a dream. The PO removed the permanent backstay and added a main with alot of roach. Very effective, but that backstay is going back on. I'm with you on the running backs OK, but,,,, statement. We sail with the oversized main and small headsails. A 140% is our largest and the J is only 11.5' on a 34 footer. I was actually thinking of starting a thread regarding the use of bendy fracs on cruising boats. I think its a cool idea. Great for changing gears, especially if they're made relatively foolproof as you indicate.Think about all those T-birds that have been cruising the Northwest for 50+ years now! This sort of ties onto WHL's thread regarding POGO's as cruisers too. We may not be talking bluewater cruising, especially in my own case, but for the cruising we do around the Salish I think it's almost ideal. So no, you're definitely not the only one!


Hmm... I met a family cruising a Dash 34 at Jones Island and they'd just gotten the boat. Is your boat in Skyline Marina in Anacortes?

#26 Tom Ray

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:06 AM

No problem Le. I should have taken the time to read your post more carefully. It was a bit confusing. My bad.

But really, going from a sport boat type to an Alberg 30? I find that quite odd.
"Let's see, I'm torn between the Porsche Carrera and the '57 Buick Roadmaster."


I'd say he needs two boats, but I guess with the Lightning the real answer is he needs three. Hey, some of us need more than that. Powerboats, even. ;)

#27 lelou

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:06 AM


No problem Le. I should have taken the time to read your post more carefully. It was a bit confusing. My bad.

But really, going from a sport boat type to an Alberg 30? I find that quite odd.
"Let's see, I'm torn between the Porsche Carrera and the '57 Buick Roadmaster."


I'd say he needs two boats, but I guess with the Lightning the real answer is he needs three. Hey, some of us need more than that. Powerboats, even. ;)


I already have 4 counting the Cape Cod Frosty, a huge windsurfer, a Laser and the Lightning. Lightning sailing is quite lame these days (I was sailing handicap against a Wayfarer tonight, and a bunch of Fireballs) so I would trade it against the new super boat.

I was only introducing the Alberg as a better alternative than the Rawson. There was an Alberg 37 on our course tonight. The nice thing to watch was the guy in the Corvette (a 31 ft full keel shallow draft CB built by C&C in the '60s) passing the J100. The J's mast is about 10 ft taller.

E

#28 Tom Ray

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:06 AM

I sailed a Rawson 30 once. We got stuck in Alligator Creek for about an hour waiting on the tide. Being stuck didn't affect speed much.

#29 Thorvald

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:30 PM


You're talking my language. I just went in partners on a Dash 34. 30 year old boat but, light, fractional rig, quite fast, pretty basic boat, headroom if you're not too tall. Sails like a dream. The PO removed the permanent backstay and added a main with alot of roach. Very effective, but that backstay is going back on. I'm with you on the running backs OK, but,,,, statement. We sail with the oversized main and small headsails. A 140% is our largest and the J is only 11.5' on a 34 footer. I was actually thinking of starting a thread regarding the use of bendy fracs on cruising boats. I think its a cool idea. Great for changing gears, especially if they're made relatively foolproof as you indicate.Think about all those T-birds that have been cruising the Northwest for 50+ years now! This sort of ties onto WHL's thread regarding POGO's as cruisers too. We may not be talking bluewater cruising, especially in my own case, but for the cruising we do around the Salish I think it's almost ideal. So no, you're definitely not the only one!


Hmm... I met a family cruising a Dash 34 at Jones Island and they'd just gotten the boat. Is your boat in Skyline Marina in Anacortes?


Nope. It's down here in Kingston.

#30 lelou

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 03:27 AM

Is there any chance the GP 26 rule will pick up ?

http://www.orc.org/gp26.htm

#31 jackdaw

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:38 PM

Is there any chance the GP 26 rule will pick up ?

http://www.orc.org/gp26.htm


Check in with Heriberto. He's doing one.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=135082

#32 TekkaMaki

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:15 AM



You're talking my language. I just went in partners on a Dash 34. 30 year old boat but, light, fractional rig, quite fast, pretty basic boat, headroom if you're not too tall. Sails like a dream. The PO removed the permanent backstay and added a main with alot of roach. Very effective, but that backstay is going back on. I'm with you on the running backs OK, but,,,, statement. We sail with the oversized main and small headsails. A 140% is our largest and the J is only 11.5' on a 34 footer. I was actually thinking of starting a thread regarding the use of bendy fracs on cruising boats. I think its a cool idea. Great for changing gears, especially if they're made relatively foolproof as you indicate.Think about all those T-birds that have been cruising the Northwest for 50+ years now! This sort of ties onto WHL's thread regarding POGO's as cruisers too. We may not be talking bluewater cruising, especially in my own case, but for the cruising we do around the Salish I think it's almost ideal. So no, you're definitely not the only one!


Hmm... I met a family cruising a Dash 34 at Jones Island and they'd just gotten the boat. Is your boat in Skyline Marina in Anacortes?


Nope. It's down here in Kingston.


I've got the Dash at Skyline. Hit 9.5 knots double handed cruising with my 5 year old son the other day- he was having a blast..
She cruises great with a family of 4, just reef early and fly a small jib when the breeze is up.
Nice.

#33 Becalmed

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:53 PM

It sounds like you need a couple of boats at least. Shallow draft racing/day sailing in one-design in Montréal? I think you are sailing a Fireball or a Shark then. Do that, and pick up a cruising anything for Lake Champlain or the Thousand Islands. I bet you can do both for cheaper than a mini-box 7.5 that will be odd man out for any racing on Lac St. Loopy.

#34 Large Thomas

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:04 PM

LeLou,
If you liked Raison's boat you'll want to have a look at the alu cruising version of it. (Yes, I hear you yell, but please, it's not a MacGregor 26!)

Other than that I'd really suggest the Seascape 27, it's an awesome boat, and I hear from Andraz that there will be an option for an electric winch for the keel, so you'll have no trouble with it. Then again you won't get one before October next year.

Else, Elan 210?

Or Héol 7.4 in the twin keel version?




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