20 replies to this topic

[Off Watch]

I had replaced my wire backstay with Amsteel recently, I did a brummel splice with 3 or 4 brummel tucks and then I buried the tail inside after tapering the end.

Last night in a race in a puff that was 25 kts we got an override in the spin sheet so they could not unload the spinaker, we took a pretty good knock down and and the old spin halyard broke. Afterwards I noticed I couldn't get enough tension on my backstay.

Tonight I pulled the Amsteel backstay off and measured it against the old wire backstay and It had slipped a couple of inches. Now I am a little wary of using Amsteel although I am sure it is something that I have done,

Should I sew through the throat of splice to help lock it all together? Should I put it on a winch and really cinch it down before using? Should I just order it from a professional rigger.

[SeaWay]

Was it the splice that slipped (unlikely if you did proper brummel tucks)?

what you have probably experienced is the extension of the rope as all of the fibres loosened during the splicing proceed bedding down again under the first significant load. As the diameter reduces due to this bedding down, the rope gets longer. 2 inches probably not out of the realms of probability for the spice and a bit of construction stretch.

Cheers

SW

[break my wallet]

agree, most likely stretch. you will always have some "give" in Amsteel.
Use Vectran.. put a load on it to set the splice and it should be good to go.

[bammiller]

Any idea on what fiber you were using?

Amsteel is DSK60 which is the least desirable of all the dyneema fibers for it elastic elongation.

Bam Miller

[MSA]

I had replaced my wire backstay with Amsteel recently, I did a brummel splice with 3 or 4 brummel tucks and then I buried the tail inside after tapering the end.

Last night in a race in a puff that was 25 kts we got an override in the spin sheet so they could not unload the spinaker, we took a pretty good knock down and and the old spin halyard broke. Afterwards I noticed I couldn't get enough tension on my backstay.

Tonight I pulled the Amsteel backstay off and measured it against the old wire backstay and It had slipped a couple of inches. Now I am a little wary of using Amsteel although I am sure it is something that I have done,

Should I sew through the throat of splice to help lock it all together? Should I put it on a winch and really cinch it down before using? Should I just order it from a professional rigger.

A brummel Lock splice will not slip, it is physically impossible.

Did you just tuck the tail through the working end a few times and then bury into the working end?

I wouldn't use SK60 to tie my shoe laces. Actually.. The only thing I do use it for is Topping lift and Down-haul bridles on Spinnaker poles if I dont have any Dynex or Dynex Dux spare.

[xyzzy]

Brummel with 3 or 4 brummel tucks sounds strange. I'm also wondering if MSA has it right.

If you use a Brummel, just do it once. The strength of the splice comes from bury of the tail into the core. You need this to be long enough not to slip. Samson says 63 line diameters for amsteel. Any extra tucks, twists, poke-throughs and whatnot you stick in the splice don't make it stronger. They make it weaker.

The purpose of the brummel is to keep the splice for falling apart when the line isn't loaded. The same with stitches, which aren't necessary with a brummel. They don't make the splice stronger or keep it from slipping when loaded.

Like others have said, new amsteel will stretch a decent amount the first time it is really loaded up. Stretching it out on the some winches before you make the final splice is a good idea. You can also splice it short and the connect it with a lashing that you shorten as it stretches. It will also stretch out gradually, or creep, as it's used.

You should probably redo your splice and take the opportunity to shorten it up some.

[Off Watch]

If the brummels can't slip then it must have been because the line had not been loaded before.

I put both end on a cleat and winched down really hard to see if I could get them to slip and nothing. So it must have been all in the initial stretch.

[Tucky]

Like others have said, new amsteel will stretch a decent amount the first time it is really loaded up. Stretching it out on the some winches before you make the final splice is a good idea. You can also splice it short and the connect it with a lashing that you shorten as it stretches. It will also stretch out gradually, or creep, as it's used.

You should probably redo your splice and take the opportunity to shorten it up some.

I would load it after all your splicing is done- I've done it with a car. Splices need to be set.

[Yachtdog]

Brummel with 3 or 4 brummel tucks sounds strange. I'm also wondering if MSA has it right.

If you use a Brummel, just do it once. The strength of the splice comes from bury of the tail into the core. You need this to be long enough not to slip. Samson says 63 line diameters for amsteel. Any extra tucks, twists, poke-throughs and whatnot you stick in the splice don't make it stronger. They make it weaker.

The purpose of the brummel is to keep the splice for falling apart when the line isn't loaded. The same with stitches, which aren't necessary with a brummel. They don't make the splice stronger or keep it from slipping when loaded.

Like others have said, new amsteel will stretch a decent amount the first time it is really loaded up. Stretching it out on the some winches before you make the final splice is a good idea. You can also splice it short and the connect it with a lashing that you shorten as it stretches. It will also stretch out gradually, or creep, as it's used.

You should probably redo your splice and take the opportunity to shorten it up some.

Sorry, no hard feelings but you likely don't know what a Brummel is. FYI, the strength of the splice does not come from the bury as much when you do a Brummel but does when you do the standard tuck and bury.

Additionally, the purpose of the brummel is not to keep the splice from falling apart when the line isn't loaded.

I would only do a Brummel when I don't have enough length of line to do a proper splice.

[kgw]

How--To...

[Off Watch]

How--To...

That is exactly how I did mine unfortunatly I did not know about the initial strech or set.

How does the taper effect the strength of the splice?

[lake Pee]

How--To...

That is exactly how I did mine unfortunatly I did not know about the initial strech or set.

How does the taper effect the strength of the splice?

If you dont taper the end of the bury, the abrupt change in diameter creates a stress concentration spot, and the line will fail right at the end of the taper at much less than the rated strength of the line (something like 50%).

[xyzzy]

Brummel with 3 or 4 brummel tucks sounds strange. I'm also wondering if MSA has it right.

If you use a Brummel, just do it once. The strength of the splice comes from bury of the tail into the core. You need this to be long enough not to slip. Samson says 63 line diameters for amsteel. Any extra tucks, twists, poke-throughs and whatnot you stick in the splice don't make it stronger. They make it weaker.

The purpose of the brummel is to keep the splice for falling apart when the line isn't loaded. The same with stitches, which aren't necessary with a brummel. They don't make the splice stronger or keep it from slipping when loaded.

Like others have said, new amsteel will stretch a decent amount the first time it is really loaded up. Stretching it out on the some winches before you make the final splice is a good idea. You can also splice it short and the connect it with a lashing that you shorten as it stretches. It will also stretch out gradually, or creep, as it's used.

You should probably redo your splice and take the opportunity to shorten it up some.

Sorry, no hard feelings but you likely don't know what a Brummel is. FYI, the strength of the splice does not come from the bury as much when you do a Brummel but does when you do the standard tuck and bury.

Additionally, the purpose of the brummel is not to keep the splice from falling apart when the line isn't loaded.

I would only do a Brummel when I don't have enough length of line to do a proper splice.

That's not what Colligo says. Have you done testing with short buried brummels?

[jfranta]

I had replaced my wire backstay with Amsteel recently, I did a brummel splice with 3 or 4 brummel tucks and then I buried the tail inside after tapering the end.

Last night in a race in a puff that was 25 kts we got an override in the spin sheet so they could not unload the spinaker, we took a pretty good knock down and and the old spin halyard broke. Afterwards I noticed I couldn't get enough tension on my backstay.

Tonight I pulled the Amsteel backstay off and measured it against the old wire backstay and It had slipped a couple of inches. Now I am a little wary of using Amsteel although I am sure it is something that I have done,

Should I sew through the throat of splice to help lock it all together? Should I put it on a winch and really cinch it down before using? Should I just order it from a professional rigger.

You probably were experiencing reset of the splices when you loaded up the line as much. Good thing is if you haven't rolled up the line to loosen the braid afterwords you probably won't get any more lengthening. If you have, the same thing will happen again. This is why we prestretch and cover the bury portion of the splice with PVC Shrink Tube at Load. This does not allow the splices to loosen. This is where Dynex Dux (heat stretched Dyneema) helps also as you get the same thing happening with the entire length of the line if it is not heat set, i.e. constructional stretch.

The brummel will not need whipping and if you did a 72x diameter bury then it will retain 100% of MBL of the line. Shorter bury pushes the stress to the pass thru's at much less than MBL. Lots of data on this.


John Franta, Colligo Marine

[Yachtdog]

Brummel with 3 or 4 brummel tucks sounds strange. I'm also wondering if MSA has it right.

If you use a Brummel, just do it once. The strength of the splice comes from bury of the tail into the core. You need this to be long enough not to slip. Samson says 63 line diameters for amsteel. Any extra tucks, twists, poke-throughs and whatnot you stick in the splice don't make it stronger. They make it weaker.

The purpose of the brummel is to keep the splice for falling apart when the line isn't loaded. The same with stitches, which aren't necessary with a brummel. They don't make the splice stronger or keep it from slipping when loaded.

Like others have said, new amsteel will stretch a decent amount the first time it is really loaded up. Stretching it out on the some winches before you make the final splice is a good idea. You can also splice it short and the connect it with a lashing that you shorten as it stretches. It will also stretch out gradually, or creep, as it's used.

You should probably redo your splice and take the opportunity to shorten it up some.

Sorry, no hard feelings but you likely don't know what a Brummel is. FYI, the strength of the splice does not come from the bury as much when you do a Brummel but does when you do the standard tuck and bury.

Additionally, the purpose of the brummel is not to keep the splice from falling apart when the line isn't loaded.

I would only do a Brummel when I don't have enough length of line to do a proper splice.

That's not what Colligo says. Have you done testing with short buried brummels?

Yes and have concluded that there is no reason to do a Brummel if you have enough line to do a long enough bury.

I would be interested to hear reasons why anyone would rather do a Brummel Splice instead of a standard single braid splice if they have enough line for the proper bury. I see no benefits of a Brummel except for what I previously mentioned.

[xyzzy]

A brummel can't shake out or come undone when not loaded. That's the point! It lets you avoid stitching the splice. It doesn't make it stronger. It still needs a long bury just like a plain bury splice if it's going to achieve full strength.

[MSA]

A brummel can't shake out or come undone when not loaded. That's the point! It lets you avoid stitching the splice. It doesn't make it stronger. It still needs a long bury just like a plain bury splice if it's going to achieve full strength.

ding ding ding.. Correct answer.

A proper brummel also stops the line squeezing on things such a thimbles, Halyard clips etc etc. Try Splicing then whipping a max hoist sail without a brummel, When your stitching chafes on the sheave and your splice pulls out and your sail falls down I bet You will blame slippery Amsteel.

For anyone selling Halyards, back stays, standing rigging etc, I would almost guarantee if both were put in-front of an insurance company and explained with Data/fact, you would not be covered for a non-Brummel splice.

[Yachtdog]

A brummel can't shake out or come undone when not loaded. That's the point! It lets you avoid stitching the splice. It doesn't make it stronger. It still needs a long bury just like a plain bury splice if it's going to achieve full strength.

ding ding ding.. Correct answer.

A proper brummel also stops the line squeezing on things such a thimbles, Halyard clips etc etc. Try Splicing then whipping a max hoist sail without a brummel, When your stitching chafes on the sheave and your splice pulls out and your sail falls down I bet You will blame slippery Amsteel.

For anyone selling Halyards, back stays, standing rigging etc, I would almost guarantee if both were put in-front of an insurance company and explained with Data/fact, you would not be covered for a non-Brummel splice.

I haven't had the rigging problems that you guys have experienced. Been doing this a long, long time too... Hmm...

[MSA]

Like I said to xyzzy in a PM. Do what ever you want on a smaller boat.. its not going to matter because even a knot would do, 6 or 8mm breaking strain is 5x more than the rope will ever see. The rig and hardware wouldn't be there at that load, nor would the hull on 50% of the boats.. You know that mast base block.. yeah its rated to 1200kgs... So lets put a 3000kg Breaking strength line through it... If a knot reduces the line strength by 50% then the block is still more likely to fail first. (Maintenance and abuse all being equal)

Hypothertical..
Make a runner or check stay for a 60 footer, leeward one rubs on the boom/Staunchion/whatever, a few whipping stitches/threads break and it unravels. Said runner is shaking under no load out to leeward, Gybe in 20+knots of wind, sudden sharp jolt on the splice and it pulls out, rig falls down, owner kicks your ass as does the insurance company.

All that risk when a simple Brummel would have avoided the issue.. I know what Im going to use.. It works and the risk factor is much much less!
The difference between 1st and a DNF is a well prepared campaign. Limiting risk is part of this.

[Yachtdog]

Like I said to xyzzy in a PM. Do what ever you want on a smaller boat.. its not going to matter because even a knot would do, 6 or 8mm breaking strain is 5x more than the rope will ever see. The rig and hardware wouldn't be there at that load, nor would the hull on 50% of the boats.. You know that mast base block.. yeah its rated to 1200kgs... So lets put a 3000kg Breaking strength line through it... If a knot reduces the line strength by 50% then the block is still more likely to fail first. (Maintenance and abuse all being equal)

Hypothertical..
Make a runner or check stay for a 60 footer, leeward one rubs on the boom/Staunchion/whatever, a few whipping stitches/threads break and it unravels. Said runner is shaking under no load out to leeward, Gybe in 20+knots of wind, sudden sharp jolt on the splice and it pulls out, rig falls down, owner kicks your ass as does the insurance company.

All that risk when a simple Brummel would have avoided the issue.. I know what Im going to use.. It works and the risk factor is much much less!
The difference between 1st and a DNF is a well prepared campaign. Limiting risk is part of this.

All good thoughts. I understand where you're coming from, peace of mind is priceless and safety is paramount. I've spliced thousands of lines for many different applications, I'm not saying that what you say could never happen, anything's possible given a set of circumstances, I've just never experienced such a failure or troubles with a standard single braid splice that you're explaining. BTW, I whip the bury when doing the Brummel too just in case...

[xyzzy]

I find making a brummel is faster than stitching a whipping.