40 replies to this topic

[Mexican]

I hope the organisers have Deep Water as part of any required research for potential entrants.

An interesting concept in challenging economic circumstances. I wonder what numbers they're targetting? 2015 seems to be a reasonable target date.

One thing is certain, unlikely to be looking to SA for positive press and support.

Mex

[pogen]

From the FP

daft punk

Because the world doesn't have enough around the world sailboat races, there are now plans for another one! What makes this one different, you ask? It starts (and finishes) in 'San Francisco... Apparently there has been an outcry to have an around the world race from 'Frisco, and thankfully, that outcry can now settle down to a quiet whimper.

The idea of - no surprise here - NoCal-based designer Jim Antrim, this race as being billed as "bringing sailboat racing back to the people" with a "run what ya brung" philosophy. Apparently contestants may stop during the race if they choose, or not - "the clock keeps ticking" as they say on their site...

The clock is ticking alright, and when it strikes midnight, we think this one will turn into a pumpkin. A bizarre and unlikely idea that makes one think they must have some really good weed up there...

Title, appropriately enough, thanks to Daft Punk.
07/13/12

Not sure why Ed hates this idea so much. Is it because he hates Northern California? Or mixed fleet distances races? Or Antrim? Or perhaps, he just hates.

Interesting idea, I'm kind of sick of how sponsorship and media whoring seems to drive almost everything these days.... this one might be like the SHTP writ large, and those guys are just now finishing up what has been a great race. But god forbid people race boats because they love it, with no big bucks, no logos, no media village BS, and no pink flags.

[oceangeek]

I also like the idea, and if single-handed or double-handed entries are a part of it, I could be in. Its smart to float the idea now, and gather ideas and feedback, so to make it a great event. Not needing major sponsors, maybe the limiting factor for entries would be the time needed to sail around, and not the dollars.

[pogen]

Well, there might be a few dollars involved.

It's just that events like AC and Volvo have this reasoning of

(it's a big event) therefore (need huge shore and media infrastructure) therefore (lots of expense not related to the actual boat or crew) therefore (requires MM$ corporates sponsors) therefore (shape event to suit sponsors, not sailors)

[Green Card]

I bet this gets at least half as many entries as the recent LA to Tahiti race...

[MR.CLEAN]

Maybe this could work as sort of an ARC-style rally? It would shock me to learn that there are a pile of boat owners champing at the bit to actually race their boats around the world from SF to SF, spending a fortune along the way as they stop in new cities to buy new parts/sails/masts/etc.

But the market will answer...and the Ed is usually right about this stuff.

[oceangeek]

What regular, "race what you brung" unsponsored racers dislike is having to bring the boat back home after a long downwind race. Racing all the way around solves the problem!

[Moonduster]

There's just not enough information to even talk about it yet. At the very least, we need a NOR that explains minimum equipment requirements, minimum crew requirements, handicapping approach, costs, penalties, etc.

Jim - Where's the beef?

[pogen]

There is some more news out about this event, the idea of which was first floated about a year ago.

NOR and other official stuff: http://www.sf2sfoceanrace.com/

Nov 5, 2012 writeup on NorCalSailing: http://www.norcalsai...f2sf/sf2sf.html

Nov 6, 2012 writeup on the MojoSail blog: http://www.mojosail....f-race-details/

Last year interview on ProBoat (I couldn't find the actual interview, though): http://proboatradio....sco-ocean-race/

One difference will be that it will be permitted to make port to re-stock and make repairs, etc., though the clock will be running. Of course, there are not many ports in the southern ocean! Unless it is also OK to be met at sea by a supply ship? It is going to be kind of sticky to write the rules on what is permissible outside assistance, IMHO.

A little video for newbies, seems simple, no?



From the NOR, it is to be an ISAF Category 0 race. No word yet on whether there will be waivers on requirements for lifelines or masthead antennas.

[BobJ]

No word yet on whether there will be waivers on requirements for lifelines or masthead antennas.

Always the comedian.


Since the minimum LOA is 40' I was thinking of buying Mark's boat and giving it a go - but then I saw his boat is off the market. Guess I'll have to put a huge fooking scoop on the 92 . . .

[pogen]

I just had a bad thought. Since crew changes are permissible, what if 48 guys got together, and organized 6 legs with 8 guys on each leg, staggered somehow for continuity... or with 2 pros on board plus 6 - 8 ams... then the cost might be as little as $20 - $50k per guy, all up... kind of like Clipper Round the World??

[BobJ]

Crew?

[pogen]

I was thinking "Team SSS" if that is not too much of an oxymoron.

[ronnie_simpson]

i figure there's gotta be a few guys in SF willing to DH a used Class 40 around....

[Total Slacker]

DH would be the way to go. I'll volunteer my T-10 for the race to any takers...that 200 mile day thing might be a problem, though.

...or maybe an ECO-50 that could be picked up for cheap?

http://www.yachtworl...A/United-States
http://www.yachtworl...A/United-States
http://www.yachtworl...-2381316/France

[BobJ]

I like the looks of that Open 50 in Long Beach. But it's hard to buy, prep and qualify (2014 SHTP?) with a boat when they have this in the NOR:

"Final eligibility will be decided by the race committee. Specific structural and stability standards may be announced."

I think I'll keep working on the Solo Tahiti Race idea - lots fewer rules and do-able in one season.

[ctutmark]

Might be able to expand that to include the whole West Coast. Just saying......

i figure there's gotta be a few guys in SF willing to DH a used Class 40 around....

[frankda1959]

A 40 footer would have to be short handed, if non-stop...few if any raceboats (or non-racers) have the volume to carry all that is needed to race around the world. Maybe Davids' mass crew in legs idea would be best!

[alni]

Who remembers the early days of the Whitbread. It started as a massive adventure more than anything else. I think it could introduce the US to sailing a bit more and get the average American having heard about it. Think how many US boats would give it a go.

[pogen]

Re-provisioning stops of a minimum of 12 hrs are allowed, from the NOR.

The vagueness on the boat qualifications and qualifying sail need to be fixed is that is going to give people pause.

Those Open 50s look affordable to buy at least, only twice the price of a good used Express 37.

Getting a handful of firm commits soon would seem to be necessary to promote the thing. Look how the AC has foundered with every possible advantage it has.

I agree, that modern media circuses with $MM budgets and shore-side sideshows are not necessary, maybe a team of just a few guys and committed shore personnel could get it done for less than $0.5M??

[ronnie_simpson]

I like the looks of that Open 50 in Long Beach. But it's hard to buy, prep and qualify (2014 SHTP?) with a boat when they have this in the NOR:

"Final eligibility will be decided by the race committee. Specific structural and stability standards may be announced."

I think I'll keep working on the Solo Tahiti Race idea - lots fewer rules and do-able in one season.

yeah, but you really think a race with 0 entrants is going to turn people away when they show up on an Open 50, etc? Nah. Biggest problem I see is signing up for a race, prepping a boat, running a campaign, finding sponsors, etc and then the race not actually happening.

It says "run what you brung" is the philosophy so i doubt they'll be turning people away if they show up in a bouat that is not suited to go around.

the whole thing seems pretty wonky though if you ask me. On the front page under the questions where it says "Why", the #1 reason is "why not?". I mean, seriously? As someone who is actively working on finding peoplel to invest in a round the world racing campaign, i can tell you that you need better and more compelling points than just "why not?"

[frankda1959]

I think the "run what you brung" philosophy is highly dubious at best. Unfortunately I think SF is too far off the non-stop ocean racing grid. Most here are interested and experienced at racing to Hawaii which, in my opinion, has very little to do with racing around the world Therefore I think it will be hard to attract $ for sponsorship and entries... leading to a" sail what you have" scheme. I really like Jim, Stan, et al but I just don't see it working. For their sake and anyone that wants to do it I hope I am proven wrong.

[jhc]

There are plenty of rtw races. Why not race from sf to sydney. 6,000 mi. nice weather, 90% tradewind. Whats not to like?

[solosailor]

Why not race from sf to sydney

I think that was tried a a decade back or so..... SF to Hawaii, Hawaii to Aus? Can't remember the proposed route but it failed for the same reason.... not many interested. Ever price getting your boat back from Australia?

[jhc]

Why not race from sf to sydney

I think that was tried a a decade back or so..... SF to Hawaii, Hawaii to Aus? Can't remember the proposed route but it failed for the same reason.... not many interested. Ever price getting your boat back from Australia?

I don't think saving on shipping expense is what is driving people to race rtw.
I don't suggest racing sf/hawaii/sydney. Would be better: sf/hawaii/tokyo
sf/sf is a hate mission. Ultimately a longer route than the vendee, so hard to see what would drive entries.
The sf/sf idea seems to have a perfect combination of poor promotion of a poor route.
Good luck with that.

sf/sydney on the other hand could have double the interest, exposure, and sponsors, merely for the fact of two cities involved.
Also, a geographically desirable route.

[ctutmark]

Why not race from sf to sydney

I think that was tried a a decade back or so..... SF to Hawaii, Hawaii to Aus? Can't remember the proposed route but it failed for the same reason.... not many interested. Ever price getting your boat back from Australia?

I don't think saving on shipping expense is what is driving people to race rtw.
I don't suggest racing sf/hawaii/sydney. Would be better: sf/hawaii/tokyo
sf/sf is a hate mission. Ultimately a longer route than the vendee, so hard to see what would drive entries.
The sf/sf idea seems to have a perfect combination of poor promotion of a poor route.
Good luck with that.

sf/sydney on the other hand could have double the interest, exposure, and sponsors, merely for the fact of two cities involved.
Also, a geographically desirable route.

Why not make it a loop of the Pacific? SF- Hawaii (or Tahiti)- Auckland- Sydney- Somewhere in Japan- Victoria, Canada and back to SF. Or something to that effect

[BobJ]

I'm mildly serious about a shorthanded Tahiti race, mostly for the many SH TransPac vets who are looking for the next thing.

~ Jester Challenge style as to rules (almost none), but

~ Probably require finishing a SHTP (to weed out the newbies who want their hands held)

~ Slowest rating of 150 (so people get there in a reasonable time) but you could still do it on a Moore

~ No R/C down there (costs too much) - take your own time

~ Maybe into Raiatea instead of Papeete

~ Early enough in the season to sail back up to Hawaii if you want


I'm really highjacking the SF2SF thread but it's the SA way . . .

[Dixie]

Is there anyone here who thinks SF2SF would work?

[pogen]

Is there anyone here who thinks SF2SF would work?

Well it's the big boat owners that need to believe, not most of those posting, myself included.

I hope they are wining and dining Alex right about now.

[ronnie_simpson]

I'm mildly serious about a shorthanded Tahiti race, mostly for the many SH TransPac vets who are looking for the next thing.

~ Slowest rating of 150 (so people get there in a reasonable time) but you could still do it on a Moore

Now that is fairly appealing with a moore

[frankda1959]

Since I don't think SF2SF will fly. I too was thinking of a shorter course as a replacement. I thought of SF to Boston for a non-stop race originating from SF; since it has some history and one goes around the horn. But SF to Australia sounds more attractive to me (although it's not 90% trades) and I think for the West coast crowd. But again, what were there, 2 boats for the last Tahiti Race.

[BobJ]

Right, but that's fully-crewed. Very expensive proposition.

Ronnie, I know where there's a Moore for sale that already has the offshore gear . . . oh, wait . . .

[frankda1959]

I hear you Bob J. I not talking SH(orDH), at least not exclusively. I'm still hung up on a crewed race! Any bites with the Moore Ronnie? I considered selling in Hawaii but shipped back...twice!

[jhc]

Since I don't think SF2SF will fly. I too was thinking of a shorter course as a replacement. I thought of SF to Boston for a non-stop race originating from SF; since it has some history and one goes around the horn. But SF to Australia sounds more attractive to me (although it's not 90% trades) and I think for the West coast crowd. But again, what were there, 2 boats for the last Tahiti Race.

I've read a log from a sf/sydney passage, a clipper ship, that ran 200 miles a day, +-10 miles. Departed early spring, post frontal. Was wind astern 'till 200 miles from sydney. Could find the reference, if you are interested.

[BobJ]

I hear you Bob J. I not talking SH(orDH), at least not exclusively. I'm still hung up on a crewed race!

I'm seeing the larger fully-crewed boats turn and burn at Drake's Bay (even with a return race the next day) and Half Moon Bay, even Santa Cruz.

A fair number fly home as soon as they step off in Waikiki. I can't imagine keeping an amateur crew together for something like we're discussing.

Except for the full-pro crews (Volvo, etc.) I think long-distance ocean racing has become the domain of the short-handers. If I had a double-handed division in the Tahiti race it would probably attract the "performance cruisers" who planned to keep going from there - not a bad thing - but the focus would be on the single-handers.

[frankda1959]

Since I don't think SF2SF will fly. I too was thinking of a shorter course as a replacement. I thought of SF to Boston for a non-stop race originating from SF; since it has some history and one goes around the horn. But SF to Australia sounds more attractive to me (although it's not 90% trades) and I think for the West coast crowd. But again, what were there, 2 boats for the last Tahiti Race.

I've read a log from a sf/sydney passage, a clipper ship, that ran 200 miles a day, +-10 miles. Departed early spring, post frontal. Was wind astern 'till 200 miles from sydney. Could find the reference, if you are interested.

Sounds interesting. If not too much trouble, I'll enjoy reading. I think we might be differing in semantics. It sounds like the description is "tradewind conditions". Having sailed equal distance in both the Pacific NE and SE trades for a total of about 20K NM, I'm familiar with their confined locations.

[jhc]

This is the link to the book with the passage logs:

http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/1889901180

This is a link to an interesting, though unrelated log by the same captain:

http://www.nobbly.co...ve.html#sanfran

I'll go for "tradewind conditions".

[frankda1959]

This is the link to the book with the passage logs:

http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/1889901180

This is a link to an interesting, though unrelated log by the same captain:

http://www.nobbly.co...ve.html#sanfran

I'll go for "tradewind conditions".

Thanks! Looks cool. Keeping off the SF2SF thread. The history of the SF2Boston route, that I mentioned was similar clipper ship experiences. Although I do remember Thursdays' Child doing a Beantown2SF run.

Back to the SF2SF, kind of...

Unfortunately, like Bob J and others indicated; long distance fully crewed boats, particularily amateur boats, is a hard sell.
After reviewing mostly "how will this race attract entrants" comments from so many of us, I believe it is natural to discuss alternatives. And of course, it is easier to critique others!

[frankda1959]

I was wrong about Thursdays' Child, which left from NYC not Boston. The Maserati campaign reminded me of my error.

[jhc]

I was wrong about Thursdays' Child, which left from NYC not Boston. The Maserati campaign reminded me of my error.

Yes, nyc. I went out with two friends, to meet thursday's child, on their last day at sea before arriving in sf. We saw them, three or four miles upwind of us, and thought about pursuing. But was blowing twenty five knots, rough and cold, so turned and ran home. Those record attempts were all east coast based. Not much interest with west coast sailors bashing upwind for some two thousand miles. Better to find competitors with a reaching, and running course. Thursday's Child's nyc/sf record of 80 days is the same time this year's vendee winner will take to sail around the world.

[jhc]

Anyone done a predicted route sf/sf? Based on historical data. Would be interesting to know total time, and distance.