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AC World Series Scoring System is Stupid


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#1 C Hawk

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:04 PM

Does anyone else think the America's Cup World Series scoring system is a load of crap? For a 5-day regatta, nothing you do in fleet racing days 1-4 matters at all. There are match racing qualifiers that matter but aren't part of the TV coverage. Then on Sunday the bast two match racers meet up and duke it out, then have 5 minutes rest until they have to sail the only fleet race that matters putting them at a distinct disadvantage.

Even if the final fleet race was triple points, the prior races might at least have some monir bearing. But winner take all is just silly. You can have 6 firsts and a second and lose the regatta.

#2 Robnacra

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 07:07 PM

1342800242[/url]' post='3793706']
Does anyone else think the America's Cup World Series scoring system is a load of crap? For a 5-day regatta, nothing you do in fleet racing days 1-4 matters at all. There are match racing qualifiers that matter but aren't part of the TV coverage. Then on Sunday the bast two match racers meet up and duke it out, then have 5 minutes rest until they have to sail the only fleet race that matters putting them at a distinct disadvantage.

Even if the final fleet race was triple points, the prior races might at least have some monir bearing. But winner take all is just silly. You can have 6 firsts and a second and lose the regatta.


Agreed, think the first rounds of the acws were the best. Coverage of everything live, points system that kept the whole regatta interesting. Not just who can pull it out of there arse on the last day...

#3 Rennmaus

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 07:12 PM

IIRC the "winner takes all" last race was already part of the rules for the first event.

#4 dogwatch

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:51 PM

But winner take all is just silly.


You can watch 60 seconds of TV highlights and understand the regatta. The event is designed for the TV entertainment of people who know nothing about sailing. How you feel about that may depend on whether you identify yourself as a sailor or as a "sports fan".

This subject has been discussed to death here and most of us are probably weary of it.

#5 Cobra 524

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:13 PM

The article from ACRM on the new points system says that the points from the ACWS match racing carry forward to the LVC rankings. How does this work where some teams have two crews in the ACWS and others have only one?

Do Artemis and LR have to average their points between their boats? (ORTU don't get a ranking so 4,5 and BARF don't matter)

Or do they have to nominate one crew to count ranking points?

#6 eric e

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:41 PM

Or do they have to nominate one crew to count ranking points?


no chopping and changing between crews i think

#7 nav

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:48 PM

That's a good point about rankings and multiboat teams (& that's all the LVC teams so far except ETNZ). It's not covered by any of the official documents that I've seen so far.

Here's an explanation of the thinking behind the new format..... http://mediacenter.a...0717_format.pdf

Exciting event format revealed for 2012-13 AC World Series season
Every race to count as new season gets underway in San Francisco

San Francisco, Calif. – July 18, 2012 –

The first event of the 2012-13 AC World Series is
in San Francisco from August 21-26 this summer. This marks the first racing in the host city
of the 34th America's Cup.
On Wednesday, the format of competition for the new 2012-13 AC World Series was
released; a five day program of racing building to a grand finale on the Super Sunday of
each event.
"This format is one we intend to use at each of the events for the 2012-13 AC World Series
racing calendar," said Iain Murray, the Regatta Director of the 34th America's Cup.
"Last season we experimented with a number of different formats to develop a program we
were happy with," he added. "This year, we'll have a consistent program for the events, with
minor adjustments, if required, for the local conditions in each venue. The stakes have been
raised with each race counting towards a season ranking in both fleet and match racing."
Racing is scheduled to begin on the Wednesday of each event. All races sailed from
Wednesday to Saturday count towards qualification for the Match Racing Semi Finals.
On the last day of racing, on Sunday, the top four teams meet in the Match Racing Semi
Finals (sudden death), with the winners going to a one-race Final. The event closes with all
of the teams racing in the AC World Series Championship Fleet Race with the winner taking
all.

2012-13 AC World Series Racing Program:
Wednesday: Match Racing
Thursday: Two Fleet Races (Match Racing Qualifier)
Friday: Two Fleet Races (Match Racing Qualifier)
Saturday: Two Fleet Races (Match Racing Qualifier)
Sunday: Match Racing Semi Finals and Finals; ACWS Championship Fleet Race

Points earned from Super Sunday's Fleet Racing accumulate over the course of the year toeach race counting
determine the AC World Series Champion. Points earned from a team's finishing position in
the Match Racing Championship determine the AC World Series Match Racing Champion
for the season. For the challengers, these points also determine a Louis Vuitton Ranking,
which will confer an advantage at the beginning of next year's Louis Vuitton Cup.

Television and web streaming coverage will be provided for all racing from Friday through
Sunday, with highlights from Thursday's racing.
One tweak for the San Francisco event will see the Match Racing Semi Finals and Finals,
normally scheduled for Super Sunday, instead take place on Saturday afternoon, in
anticipation of stronger wind conditions. Otherwise, an early start to racing on Sunday could
have seen the Match Racing championships determined in very light, fluky conditions before
the forecast sea breeze gets established.
The AC Village for the 2012 San Francisco events in August and October will be on Marina
Green in San Francisco, with the main public area moving to Piers 27-29 in 2013.


But the "...each race counting..." part is obviously bullshit - that's clear from "Points earned from Super Sunday's Fleet Racing accumulate......"



#8 ~Stingray~

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 07:43 PM

It could have been explained better but to my understanding, the [my-bold insert] is implied/intended:

Points earned from a team's finishing position in
the Match Racing Championship determine the AC World Series Match Racing Champion
for the season. For the challengers, these [event-after-event finishing position ~in the Match Racing~ accumulated] points also determine a Louis Vuitton Ranking,
which will confer an advantage at the beginning of next year's Louis Vuitton Cup.

Since the fleet races that happen prior to Sunday's MR Semi's and Final count towards the seedings for the event's Semi's, then the races arguably 'all' count towards the LVC seedings to a degree.

The exception is the points from the Final Fleet race. Those position points go toward determining the season's Fleet Race championship - but do not affect anything LVC.

If that interpretation is correct then MRing has become much more important than it was in the first season.

None of this matters for teams who don't make it to the LVC (BAR being the surest example so far) or don't qualify for it (the Defender). My guess is that for the rest (ETNZ, LR, AR, KOR?, ET?) only the highest scoring boat of a 2-boat team is what will count for the LVC seedings. In LR and in AR's cases they might be wise to pack the best talent onto the 'lead' boat. Maybe even switch crews around as they learn the best chemistry during the season in order to achieve that 'best boat' mix.

Nice that there will be more race days; but it's unfortunate for us hard-cores that fewer days (Fri - Sun only) will be TV/online produced in season 2.

#9 nav

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 08:50 PM

It could have been explained better but to my understanding, the [my-bold insert] is implied/intended:

Points earned from a team's finishing position in
the Match Racing Championship determine the AC World Series Match Racing Champion
for the season. For the challengers, these [event-after-event finishing position ~in the Match Racing~ accumulated] points also determine a Louis Vuitton Ranking,
which will confer an advantage at the beginning of next year's Louis Vuitton Cup.

Since the fleet races that happen prior to Sunday's MR Semi's and Final count towards the seedings for the event's Semi's, then the races arguably 'all' count towards the LVC seedings to a degree.

The exception is the points from the Final Fleet race. Those position points go toward determining the season's Fleet Race championship - but do not affect anything LVC.

If that interpretation is correct then MRing has become much more important than it was in the first season.

None of this matters for teams who don't make it to the LVC (BAR being the surest example so far) or don't qualify for it (the Defender). My guess is that for the rest (ETNZ, LR, AR, KOR?, ET?) only the highest scoring boat of a 2-boat team is what will count for the LVC seedings. In LR and in AR's cases they might be wise to pack the best talent onto the 'lead' boat. Maybe even switch crews around as they learn the best chemistry during the season in order to achieve that 'best boat' mix.

Nice that there will be more race days; but it's unfortunate for us hard-cores that fewer days (Fri - Sun only) will be TV/online produced in season 2.


Fairest to the one boat teams would be to take the lowest scoring boat of each team to determine the ranking!Posted Image

#10 ~Stingray~

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 08:58 PM

Fairest to the one boat teams would be to take the lowest scoring boat of each team to determine the ranking!Posted Image

In a way, that may even help the two boat teams by forcing them to get two crews as good as possible, as fast as possible.

Is it spelled out anywhere how they will handle two-boat teams' scores? Maybe the SF SI's will do it more explicitly but unless they do then the logical assumption is probably 'top boat counts.'

There is the uncomfortable element introduced that the Defender is affecting the LVC rankings; but since all challengers who qualify (pay, build a boat, compete in the ACWS, etc) ~will~ be guaranteed ~a~ spot in the LVC, then it's not too, too uncomfortable a notion. It is also unlikely that OR will let up on anyone, to try ensure that other team had a better chance at out-seeding a different 'enemy' because by the time of the LVC things will have gotten more unpredictable anyway during the in-between time from the last ACWS event.

#11 nav

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:25 PM


Fairest to the one boat teams would be to take the lowest scoring boat of each team to determine the ranking!Posted Image

In a way, that may even help the two boat teams by forcing them to get two crews as good as possible, as fast as possible.

Is it spelled out anywhere how they will handle two-boat teams' scores? Maybe the SF SI's will do it more explicitly but unless they do then the logical assumption is probably 'top boat counts.'

There is the uncomfortable element introduced that the Defender is affecting the LVC rankings; but since all challengers who qualify (pay, build a boat, compete in the ACWS, etc) ~will~ be guaranteed ~a~ spot in the LVC, then it's not too, too uncomfortable a notion. It is also unlikely that OR will let up on anyone, to try ensure that other team had a better chance at out-seeding a different 'enemy' because by the time of the LVC things will have gotten more unpredictable anyway during the in-between time from the last ACWS event.


No, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere yet.
I'd be a bit surprised to see any clarification in an event SI as it's a matter for the series (and after). An oversight that it was missed considering the level of detail in the documents....

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/RN135-ACWS-2012-13-Format-and-San-Francisco-Schedule.pdf
http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/2012-2013-ACWS-Format-Explanation.pdf


But for all we know the rankings may have little real significance in the LVC itself.

#12 ~Stingray~

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:38 PM

True, might belong better as a Protocol amendment.

edit - that second link also provides for 11 boats, interesting.

#13 nav

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:03 PM

True, might belong better as a Protocol amendment.

edit - that second link also provides for 11 boats, interesting.


Yeah I just posted the latest on one of the SF threads. It's China coming back in apparently.

#14 SW Sailor

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:39 PM


True, might belong better as a Protocol amendment.

edit - that second link also provides for 11 boats, interesting.


Yeah I just posted the latest on one of the SF threads. It's China coming back in apparently.


That may just be provisional in nature, not based on a confirmed entry from the team. I'd think if they were going to enter it would have been announced.

#15 ~Stingray~

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 11:30 PM

+1
China's withdrawal looked and sounded pretty final to me. the Russian ACWS entry likely has the inside track on the 11th spot come SF, possibly after purchasing China's AC45. That's the square my 25 cent bet gets placed on.

IF that team is RUS and RC44 related, it is even possible we might see Ed Baird stepping into the thick of it - something I would love to see happen.

#16 kiwi_jon

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 12:12 AM


Fairest to the one boat teams would be to take the lowest scoring boat of each team to determine the ranking!Posted Image

In a way, that may even help the two boat teams by forcing them to get two crews as good as possible, as fast as possible.

Is it spelled out anywhere how they will handle two-boat teams' scores? Maybe the SF SI's will do it more explicitly but unless they do then the logical assumption is probably 'top boat counts.'

There is the uncomfortable element introduced that the Defender is affecting the LVC rankings; but since all challengers who qualify (pay, build a boat, compete in the ACWS, etc) ~will~ be guaranteed ~a~ spot in the LVC, then it's not too, too uncomfortable a notion. It is also unlikely that OR will let up on anyone, to try ensure that other team had a better chance at out-seeding a different 'enemy' because by the time of the LVC things will have gotten more unpredictable anyway during the in-between time from the last ACWS event.


I do wish that ACRM/ACEA would stick to the Protocol. The Protocol only allows for ACWS regattas held in 2013 to count towards a ranking system for the ACCS or ACDS.

22.5. AC45 Yachts will be raced until the conclusion of the 2012-13 AC World Series in 2013.
Thereafter AC72 Yachts will be raced, including in a preliminary regatta to be held prior to
the commencement of the Regatta.

22.6. Competitors may enter a second yacht in any AC World Series regatta.

22.7. The Regatta Director may at his discretion use the results of the 2013 AC World Series
regattas held prior to the Regatta to seed the ACCS and ACDS.



#17 ~Stingray~

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 12:17 AM

Isn't the bold giving the RD the right to do exactly what he did just decide?

#18 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 01:03 AM

+1
China's withdrawal looked and sounded pretty final to me. the Russian ACWS entry likely has the inside track on the 11th spot come SF, possibly after purchasing China's AC45. That's the square my 25 cent bet gets placed on.

IF that team is RUS and RC44 related, it is even possible we might see Ed Baird stepping into the thick of it - something I would love to see happen.


You mean by the gun toting Ski TK admires so much ?

#19 ~Stingray~

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 03:14 AM

^ You are apparently referring to TK's 'but it's just another vanity' effort refrain? :)

I call the 'vanity' a 'passion' and think it's a good virtue. GD has the passion, the AC obsession too, it's what defines the guy and he has talked about that exact subject in (at least) interviews with PJM that I could point to if pressed.

The Synergy money may well be behind what I think will be that 11th entry come SF. That guy is not into it to make money either; just like (presumably..) Dalts is either ;)

They all want a part of the fun even if the reason factors vary. LE is the Big Daddy this time, and given his heavy long term commitment already I tip my cap to him. We really are lucky for this, that passion, that love of the Game and for the sport in general by all these guys.

#20 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 04:55 AM

It was the rant about how LE would let anyone enter, even a gun collecting Russian billionaire, with the implication he was running the Russian mafia or something, and a picture was posted with him standing in front of an AK47 or something. And of course TC totally agreed with him.

I'd be surprised if we saw any new team join this late in the cycle, including a Russian team.

While TK takes shots a billionaires in his role as Grants alter ego, I'd bet dollars to doughnut holes if a billionaire Kiwi showed up with a well funded campaign with no sponsors the issue would fade into the sunset as another one of his double standards.

Their is a rich background of very wealthy challengers and defenders in the history of the AC, and I wouldn't want that aspect of the event to change as it adds another dimension to the event.

#21 dogwatch

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 09:19 AM

a Louis Vuitton Ranking,
which will confer an advantage at the beginning of next year's Louis Vuitton Cup.


Results of an OD event potentially affecting the LVC is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Exactly how much seeding does a 3 challenger event need anyway?

#22 dogwatch

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 09:20 AM

Isn't the bold giving the RD the right to do exactly what he did just decide?


Not 2012 results.

#23 nav

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 02:32 PM


Isn't the bold giving the RD the right to do exactly what he did just decide?


Not 2012 results.


"...the 2013 AC World Series regattas held prior to the Regatta..." could mean;


all regattas in the 2012/2013 AC World Series
or
the regattas of the 2012/2013 AC World series that take place in 2013


but as there is definitely no "2013 AC World Series" you can take your pick - or shall we ask the Indians?Posted Image



#24 SW Sailor

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:42 PM

Looks like two series to me;

2011 - 2012, concluded in Newport, and

2012 - 2013, with 2 SF, Venice and Naples events listed.

here


#25 nav

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:59 PM

Looks like two series to me;

2011 - 2012, concluded in Newport, and

2012 - 2013, with 2 SF, Venice and Naples events listed.

here


Thanks but I got that the first time, 2 years ago.

Read it again.

#26 ~Stingray~

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:06 PM



Isn't the bold giving the RD the right to do exactly what he did just decide?


Not 2012 results.


"...the 2013 AC World Series regattas held prior to the Regatta..." could mean;


all regattas in the 2012/2013 AC World Series
or
the regattas of the 2012/2013 AC World series that take place in 2013


but as there is definitely no "2013 AC World Series" you can take your pick - or shall we ask the Indians?Posted Image

I bet 22.7 refers to the former.

And I bet no teams would want Venice and Naples included in the scoring for LVC seedings but not SFx2; why on earth would they, especially with the sudden death MR's in the Semi's and Final's? You'd want your chances to even out better.

#27 Cobra 524

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 09:14 PM

With the format changes proposed in Regatta Notice 143 http://noticeboard.a...August-2012.pdf has anyone seen any clarification of the way points will count for the two boat teams going into the LVC.


It also now adds another complication with the seeding for MR determined by last years finishing places. As AR won the MR do both of their boats get seeded at the top or does TH on AR(red?) go to the top while AR(blue?) has to qualify?

#28 nav

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 09:30 PM

With the format changes proposed in Regatta Notice 143 http://noticeboard.a...August-2012.pdf has anyone seen any clarification of the way points will count for the two boat teams going into the LVC.


It also now adds another complication with the seeding for MR determined by last years finishing places. As AR won the MR do both of their boats get seeded at the top or does TH on AR(red?) go to the top while AR(blue?) has to qualify?


I think the bit in orange below probably covers the entry of 2nd teams in the ACWS

The question of seeding for multiboat teams going into the LVC is still open AFAIK

Format changes? Shorter races - WTF

Posted Image
© GILLES MARTIN-RAGET / ACEA

FORMAT SIMPLIFIED AHEAD OF AUGUST EVENT
POSTED ON 11 AUGUST 2012

The event format for the AC World Series San Francisco (August 21-26) has been tuned-up ahead of racing this month.

Download the format here


The updated format features a clear separation between the match racing and fleet racing disciplines and preserves the importance of the 'Super Sunday' fleet race.

"What we've done is keep the fleet racing and match racing championships completely separate," said Regatta Director Iain Murray. Previously fleet races were used to seed the teams for match racing. "Now, the seven fleet races will be scored together, with the final Super Sunday race heavily weighted in the final results. These fleet race scores will also carry forward throughout the season.

"In the match racing, the teams will be seeded into this event based on their match racing ranking from last season. The top five teams get a bye into the quarterfinals, while the new teams, and lower ranked crews, will race on Wednesday for the final three spots."

Importantly, the format for the quarterfinal, semifinal and final matches is one-race elimination, putting a premium on performing under pressure.

The match racing qualifiers are on Wednesday, which has no fleet racing. The qualifiers are a 'best-of-three' format (first team to win two points advances).

Racing on Thursday through Sunday has a similar format, opening with match racing and concluding with fleet racing. Racing starts at 14:05 Wednesday through Saturday.

On Sunday, both the match racing and fleet racing champions will be determined. The day's program will be broadcast live, coast to coast, on NBC, beginning at 11:30.





This seems to be based on Regatta Notice 143 http://noticeboard.a...August-2012.pdf
which apparently supersedes Regatta Notice 135 http://noticeboard.a...gust_Format.pdf http://noticeboard.a...Explanation.pdf


They already announce the all new, same for each regatta format, complete with Celebrity Pro/Am - so who said no?


It's now 13 minute match races and 25 minute fleet races, except Sunday when it's 15 & 30mins.


The latest set of rules Ver 1.12: http://noticeboard.a...tion-v-1.12.pdf

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image
http://www.americasc...g/A-base-grows/



#29 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:10 PM

Fwiw, TH is helming AR White and Santiago Lange (SL henceforth?) AR Red.

AR will presumably nominate AR Red as the new boat?

All that sudden-death MR'ing is harsh! Only the ACWS but still..

#30 kiwi_jon

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:54 AM




Isn't the bold giving the RD the right to do exactly what he did just decide?


Not 2012 results.


"...the 2013 AC World Series regattas held prior to the Regatta..." could mean;


all regattas in the 2012/2013 AC World Series
or
the regattas of the 2012/2013 AC World series that take place in 2013


but as there is definitely no "2013 AC World Series" you can take your pick - or shall we ask the Indians?Posted Image

I bet 22.7 refers to the former.

And I bet no teams would want Venice and Naples included in the scoring for LVC seedings but not SFx2; why on earth would they, especially with the sudden death MR's in the Semi's and Final's? You'd want your chances to even out better.


You will note that the Protocol was changed with amendment 15

Article 22.7

Existing language

“The Regatta Director may at his discretion use the results of the
2013 AC World Series regattas held prior to the Regatta to seed the
ACCS and ACDS.”

Be amended to:

“The Regatta Director may at his discretion use the results of the
2012/2013 AC World Series matching racing championship to seed
the Louis Vuitton Cup, America's Cup Challenger Series.”



#31 kiwi_jon

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:56 AM

Fwiw, TH is helming AR White and Santiago Lange (SL henceforth?) AR Red.

AR will presumably nominate AR Red as the new boat?

All that sudden-death MR'ing is harsh! Only the ACWS but still..


They won't get to nominate anything. The new boat is the boat that didn't race in the 2011/2012 series.

#32 dogwatch

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:32 AM

With the format changes proposed in Regatta Notice 143 http://noticeboard.a...August-2012.pdf has anyone seen any clarification of the way points will count for the two boat teams going into the LVC.


No.

However how the hell do you do seedings when there are three competitors anyway. Semi-final of #2 and #3, winner goes to final with #1? That's one short LVC and not actually very fair to #1 who will have never raced another team before the LVC final. Surely the LVC will kick-off with a round-robin so venue and sponsors get some value for money and if that's the case, seedings become moot.

#33 Koukel

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:35 PM

No.
However how the hell do you do seedings when there are three competitors anyway. Semi-final of #2 and #3, winner goes to final with #1? That's one short LVC and not actually very fair to #1 who will have never raced another team before the LVC final. Surely the LVC will kick-off with a round-robin so venue and sponsors get some value for money and if that's the case, seedings become moot.

I'd think they would want more than one round robin. Oracle (the racing team) would love it if the Louis Vuitton was very short. When a challenger has won in the last few mutual agreement cups, the lead up regatta process has been a big advantage.

Koukel

#34 nav

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:38 PM

The 2013 program has been published http://34th.americas...UL4-SEP2013.pdf

pretty vague thoughPosted Image

#35 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:35 AM


Fwiw, TH is helming AR White and Santiago Lange (SL henceforth?) AR Red.

AR will presumably nominate AR Red as the new boat?

All that sudden-death MR'ing is harsh! Only the ACWS but still..


They won't get to nominate anything. The new boat is the boat that didn't race in the 2011/2012 series.

They will get to nominate that AR White and TH are on the 'old' AC45, so wth is the difference? Sheesh.. ;)

#36 SW Sailor

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:58 AM


With the format changes proposed in Regatta Notice 143 http://noticeboard.a...August-2012.pdf has anyone seen any clarification of the way points will count for the two boat teams going into the LVC.


No.

However how the hell do you do seedings when there are three competitors anyway. Semi-final of #2 and #3, winner goes to final with #1? That's one short LVC and not actually very fair to #1 who will have never raced another team before the LVC final. Surely the LVC will kick-off with a round-robin so venue and sponsors get some value for money and if that's the case, seedings become moot.



Where in the hell does it reference the LV Series anywhere in the August ACWS notice, let alone the LV Series final ?

Seems like a bit of a stretch even for you, Grumpy.






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