231 replies to this topic

[blackjenner]

Just to add a touch of real-world to this discussion, I find that PHRF ratings are a reasonable comparison between boats. The Baba 35 rates around 225, my C&C 35 rates around 120. Under "averaged" conditions, I owe BJ about 100 seconds per mile. If we're both at hull speed, he probably has about the same waterline so we're equal and he will correct out way ahead. Under 10 knots I'll do a horizon job on him.

Oh, agreed. Under 10kts and I languish, sails flapping, no headway to really cheer about. A lighter boat, with a modern keel, sailed equally will walk away from me.

When we see winds 10+, 15+ maybe at 20, the boat really shines. It's a different kind of boat than the faster coastal cruisers common around these parts. She loves wind. When other boats are feeling nervous, Brigadoon feels stable. We saw peak gusts at 31 knots that day. We were hauling and feeling pretty stable.

Different beasts for different conditions. There's no shame to losing ground to a boat better suited to the conditions.

[austin1972]

if you don't race your boat once and a while there is little chance you will ever learn to get the most out of your boat. It's not impossible. It's just harder.

How would you even know? I grew up racing Sunfish. What felt fast was often not.
Powered up vs. overpowered is sort of a fine line. I'm a pretty shitty sailor though so maybe it's easier for others.

[Ballard Sailor]

Great Thread and it's so great to see that you all had such fun out there. I loved getting my friends together and racing our house the last two years, next year we plan to race a friends house, mix things up a bit. Now who do I owe a white russian to at AYC? We'll be there on Friday!

link to a write-up

[blackjenner]

WE HAVE PICS!!!












I am so stoked for those pics. I love, absolutely love, the last one!

[Tucky]

That is a great shot- looking very trim.

[Jose Carumba]

Looking good there BJ! Nice shot!

[Ajax]

Wow, giddyup!

[tekton]

Nice pimpin' of the Aerostich, too!!

[blackjenner]

Nice pimpin' of the Aerostich, too!!

I love that suit. I paid $800 for it in 1995. I figure that's a pretty good deal considering all it needs is new velcro and maybe a zipper pull or two.

[floating dutchman]

This would be my favorate pick:

 Black.JPG   27.9K   21 downloads

Q: Forstay tension? Looks a little slack?

Is it the photoes, my eyes or...

[Ajax]

It's not like he has a backstay adjuster. Hell, I don't and I actually raced this year.

[Bob Perry]

No backstay adjuster. Next year we'll use a heavier dinghy.

[Steam Flyer]

That is a great shot- looking very trim.

I'd like to see the leach ribbons on the main... looks overtrimmed compared to the genny

Looks good overall though, clearly is hauling freight

FB- Doug

[blackjenner]

This would be my favorate pick:

 Black.JPG   27.9K   21 downloads

Q: Forstay tension? Looks a little slack?

Is it the photoes, my eyes or...

Could be. The rig has been adjusted about six months ago but there were some issues.

Bob did't say weather helm was a problem, but I plan to look at the rig adjustment again anyway. I just have to purchase a tension gauge for the boat.

I'm going to try to get a higher resolution pic from the shooter too.

[Bob Perry]

Given we have no backstay adjuster I'd say headstay sag was very acceptable even good for that type of boat. I was happy. with it. Don't see tension gauge being a good investment for a boat like this. You need comparative data from the same boats also racing to get real tension numbers. That's not going to happen. I think Donn has the boat tuned very well based upon feel and our boat speed.

Tricky was trimming main and jib and given his years of racing experience on hard core boats (THE CONE for one) I was always happy with how the main was trimmed. He constantly worked at it. There was no "set it and forget it" on this race.. Not sure you can make accurate sail trim comments from those few pics. Our results are testimony to Tricky's trimming skills. There were times on the upwind legs when I'd look over at the boats around us, all far more modern designs and I'd think to myself, "Hell, we are doing marvelously." There were a few other heavy, full keeled boats that dragged their way around the course but you couldn't go into the bar after the race and rail on about how slow full keel boats go upwind if you had been sailing alongside Donn's house.

[blackjenner]

The reason I'm planning on a tension gauge is so I can check and tune the rig to basic levels when I need to. I have no plans, nor any experience to base it on, to tune this rig for races. I just want to make sure that, if I loosen the rig for maintenance or repair purposes, I can return it to "basic".

Bob is right. Tricky never let up trimming the main. I learned a lot by just watching him. One thing that I think I have to do is improve the performance of the traveler. I think it needs to be a little easier to work. I should be able to to do that with the addition of another block to increase purchase.

[boomer]

Tell tales do go a long way towards sail trim. Definitely like four tell tails on the leach of the main and another about a 1/3 of the way up and a 1/3 aft on the main.

Besides the usual tell tails on the leading edge of the jenny at least one about 1/4-1/3 down on the leach and another about 1/2 way down. The top tell tale does help with proper positioning of the jenny car/block, to far forward and the top is closed, to far aft and the top is open, get that top tell tale flowing and you know you have proper block placement.

http://www.arvelgentry.com/tuft.htm

http://www.arvelgent...lling_tales.htm

http://www.arvelgent...Trim_Primer.htm

[Bob Perry]

Donn:
Maybe a better way of insuring you can repeat your rig tune if you do remove or "de-tension" the rig is to mark your turnbuckles. I have always tuned by eye and feel. I have never used a tension gauge. Tension gauges work for one design classes where you have a fleet of boats and you can accurately compare various rig tensions from boat to boat and simulate what the fastest boats have. Even then, In the end you are always going to have to check rig tune by eye and feel. And, keep in mind that I didn't start doing this last year. If the time comes that you want to re-tune your rig, I'll be there. I'll bring Boomer. He loves that stuff. For now I think, no,,,I know, your rig is well tuned. If it were not I would have given you no end of shit about it on the race. I'm like that. And also keep in mind, that in the conditions we had and the manner in which we pushed the boat any problems with rig tune would have been very evident.

[austin1972]

No backstay adjuster. Next year we'll use a heavier dinghy.

Uh oh. Bob is losing it. COTB violation!
Find a heavy dude and have him hook a carribeaner to the backstay and sit in a hammock chair.
If you need more tension, just poke him with a stick.

Or just have him sit in the dinghy when needed.

Edited by austin1972, 07 November 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[blackjenner]

Donn:
Maybe a better way of insuring you can repeat your rig tune if you do remove or "de-tension" the rig is to mark your turnbuckles. I have always tuned by eye and feel. I have never used a tension gauge. Tension gauges work for one design classes where you have a fleet of boats and you can accurately compare various rig tensions from boat to boat and simulate what the fastest boats have. Even then, In the end you are always going to have to check rig tune by eye and feel. And, keep in mind that I didn't start doing this last year. If the time comes that you want to re-tune your rig, I'll be there. I'll bring Boomer. He loves that stuff. For now I think, no,,,I know, your rig is well tuned. If it were not I would have given you no end of shit about it on the race. I'm like that. And also keep in mind, that in the conditions we had and the manner in which we pushed the boat any problems with rig tune would have been very evident.

That's great feedback, Bob. Thanks!

[blackjenner]

Tell tales do go a long way towards sail trim. Definitely like four tell tails on the leach of the main and another about a 1/3 of the way up and a 1/3 aft on the main.

Besides the usual tell tails on the leading edge of the jenny at least one about 1/4-1/3 down on the leach and another about 1/2 way down. The top tell tale does help with proper positioning of the jenny car/block, to far forward and the top is closed, to far aft and the top is open, get that top tell tale flowing and you know you have proper block placement.

http://www.arvelgentry.com/tuft.htm

http://www.arvelgent...lling_tales.htm

http://www.arvelgent...Trim_Primer.htm

That's great stuff. Thanks.

[Steam Flyer]

Given we have no backstay adjuster I'd say headstay sag was very acceptable even good for that type of boat. I was happy. with it. Don't see tension gauge being a good investment for a boat like this. You need comparative data from the same boats also racing to get real tension numbers. That's not going to happen. I think Donn has the boat tuned very well based upon feel and our boat speed.

Tricky was trimming main and jib and given his years of racing experience on hard core boats (THE CONE for one) I was always happy with how the main was trimmed. He constantly worked at it. There was no "set it and forget it" on this race.. Not sure you can make accurate sail trim comments from those few pics. Our results are testimony to Tricky's trimming skills. There were times on the upwind legs when I'd look over at the boats around us, all far more modern designs and I'd think to myself, "Hell, we are doing marvelously." There were a few other heavy, full keeled boats that dragged their way around the course but you couldn't go into the bar after the race and rail on about how slow full keel boats go upwind if you had been sailing alongside Donn's house.

That photo series tacking around the buoy in front of a bunch of other boats is really choice.

Rig tune- if the helm is good, and pointing is good, then WTF more do you want? With no one-design class to dial in comparisons, it's very difficult (I would say 'impossible' but there are some people in this crowd wih pretty amazing skills) to pinpoint where you are on the hull-flex vs pointing vs offwind speed curve(s).

I like the fat guy in a hammock chair backstay tensioner though. Maybe for those heavy-air windward legs, you need a fat girl to sit in his lap? Is this a WLYDO patent?

Mainsail trim- just can't see the leach ribbons in those pics. The boat is certainly powered up and there's not a lot of fuss coming off the rudder. So how wrong can it be even if (no barb intended at Tricky) it looks like not enough twist and overtrimmed? As a plant operator I always believe the dials (ok I tap them pretty hard some times) and as a sail trimmer I always want to see the ribbons.

FB- Doug

[Beer Fueled Mayhem]

I imagine the photo with the main trim was taken during the starting sequence or something of that nature. Just looking at the posture of the crew tells me they are not racing at that point or just fell off the wind and the main is next to be trimmed.

[Bob Perry]

Beer:
I think you are right. By the look of it this pic was taken before the start while we were checking out the line and having close run by the committee boat. I know for sure that I don't stand behind the wheel like that while beating.

[blackjenner]

Beer:
I think you are right. By the look of it this pic was taken before the start while we were checking out the line and having close run by the committee boat. I know for sure that I don't stand behind the wheel like that while beating.

That pic was taken as we approached the committee boat at the start. If you look at the background, you can see you are looking almost directly north along the east shoreline of the sound. I think that's Shilshole in the background.

[viktor]

Great pics Black! It is so cool, but seems so rare, to have pictures of your own boat under sail. We have a bunch of at anchor or on the hard type pictures but very few of us under sail Treasure those great shots, you were certainly "look'n good!"

[blackjenner]

Great pics Black! It is so cool, but seems so rare, to have pictures of your own boat under sail. We have a bunch of at anchor or on the hard type pictures but very few of us under sail Treasure those great shots, you were certainly "look'n good!"

This is one of the few pics I've gotten of her under sail. I'm very happy with it.

Here's an older one, with the old sails.

[Trickypig]

Beer:
I think you are right. By the look of it this pic was taken before the start while we were checking out the line and having close run by the committee boat. I know for sure that I don't stand behind the wheel like that while beating.

That pic was taken as we approached the committee boat at the start. If you look at the background, you can see you are looking almost directly north along the east shoreline of the sound. I think that's Shilshole in the background.

Yes there was a strong boat end bias in the line and we were planning to `spin' Brigadoon through at tack and own the boat end. Well we sort of did, as much as a full keel and tacking the genoa around the furling staysail allows. We managed to port tack the fleet though.

[svgreatwhite]

Donn:
Maybe a better way of insuring you can repeat your rig tune if you do remove or "de-tension" the rig is to mark your turnbuckles. I have always tuned by eye and feel. I have never used a tension gauge. Tension gauges work for one design classes where you have a fleet of boats and you can accurately compare various rig tensions from boat to boat and simulate what the fastest boats have. Even then, In the end you are always going to have to check rig tune by eye and feel. And, keep in mind that I didn't start doing this last year. If the time comes that you want to re-tune your rig, I'll be there. I'll bring Boomer. He loves that stuff. For now I think, no,,,I know, your rig is well tuned. If it were not I would have given you no end of shit about it on the race. I'm like that. And also keep in mind, that in the conditions we had and the manner in which we pushed the boat any problems with rig tune would have been very evident.

That's great feedback, Bob. Thanks!

A similar way to ensure rigging settings is to measure the turnbuckle lengths when everything is adjusted the way you like it. Record the lengths and if you take the rigging apart, you can replicate the settings. On an open body turnbuckle, I measure between the treaded rods with a caliper. On closed body turnbuckles, probably measure pin to pin. When I took apart my boat in San Diego, I measured all the turnbuckles and when I put it back together in Wa, the mast came out centered and straight.

The J105 sailors are always running around comparing what rig tension they are using for the day-"What Loos number are you set too?"

[Jose Carumba]

I use turnbuckles with calibrated numbers on them (can't remember brand) for my Cal 20 . It makes it easy to set up before a race. Just write down the settings that work for various conditions. Of course you would probably run away screaming if you saw that we use about 14 inches of slack in the lowers and the mast throws fwd at the masthead about 12" or more, rocking on it's step. That's how they are raced though. Get' s the jib out away from the boat downwind. For a cruising boat I would just find the sweet spot,set it and forget it,which sounds like your plan. Take Bob up on helping set the tune. Gauges may not be necessary.

[Steam Flyer]

... ...
We managed to port tack the fleet though.

That always feels good... better than winning, sometimes.

FB- Doug

[Bob Perry]

Flyer:
Yes, it was fun to do the port tack start. It was so favored that we couldn't resist it and our fleet at the start had some good sized holes in it.