98 replies to this topic

[gui]

I was motivated this winter, until I wasn't anymore. Shame on me. It's just more fun to watch TV and eat potato chips.

So here it is:

The "Guillotine" is for sale! I'm done mothing.
Nomex honeycomb/carbon skin hull, very light.
Carbon racks from Van Dusen,
Home build foils, I know, scary, but they've help up pretty well ... lately.
Older, very tiered Raptor sail.
Shit mast, but works.
Adjustable wand length, rudder gantry (no twist due to sever dyslexia), and other useless devices (vang, downhaul, ...)
$4000

(Note to the add police, I paid my dues and it will appear soon)

The boat is red now, I'll post more pics in the next few days.

[ortegakid]

Where is't thou?

[gui]

Where is't thou?

Details , details. It's in Annapolis, MD.

[gui]

pic:

Attached Files

•  photo.JPG   36.69K   395 downloads

[USA190520]

I've seen that moth atop a car on hilltop I believe.. In red of course...

[gui]

I've seen that moth atop a car on hilltop I believe.. In red of course...

That was IT. Last time I sailed it, very nice day too, 10-15kts, blasting around the bay with 2 other local mothies.

[gui]

 photo(1).JPG   705.61K   240 downloadsred boat

[gui]

...  photo(3).JPG   670.5K   190 downloads

[gui]

?  photo(2).JPG   673.29K   146 downloads

[Icedtea]

Get me it, now.

[gui]

Some random details:
The racks are glued to the hull, so no way to ship for cheap.

The boat was designed by my brother, who earns a living designing yachts, so, presumably, he knows what he's doing.

The foils are coming from molds that were cnc cut by Philsfoils. These were my 2nd iteration on moth foils. The rudder horizontal foil comes from Bill Beaver's tooling.

All the tooling I have left will go with the boat. That includes the main foil mold.

I built 4 hulls before destroying the molds, 2 are collecting dust somewhere in North America, one is in Seattle, nicely finished and in sailing condition, and mine in Annapolis, OK looking and in good condition.

[OSAsailing]

Why are you done?

[gui]

Why are you done?

I've got that silly thing that I've been meaning to build for a few years, if it is going to happen, I will have to get rid of some of my toys. Motor boat is gone, that one was a no brainer, I'm a bit more attached to the moth but it has to go too. I'm keeping my windsurf gear, because it's easy to maintain, and that's the stuff I use the most by a long shot.
But so far no interest ...

[BWR]

Great, so you're building another 14!! Hope all is well back there. Best to Reiko and Kids.
B&R

[khil]

Is she still for sale?

[Occams Razor]

WTF Gui. This ain't right. Or is it? We need to judge your new project to see if it's worthy.

[gui]

Hey Brad, Mitch,
Nope not a 14! I'll keep you posted when I actually start.

[Northshore Pirate]

Hi:

Is your moth still forsale?

Ed Chimney
631 697 5118

[gui]

Hi:

Is your moth still forsale?

Ed Chimney
631 697 5118

yes

[Poida]

So, what you are selling here is........an uncompetitive moth........ for $4,000. You have to be kidding right! ....."Tell im ee's dreamin"
The re-death of this class is not far away now if unrealistic prices continue. As soon as the current backbone sailors of the class move on, there will be NO juniors or new sailors with enough money to afford to sail them.
I was involved last time round when carbon hulls and pocket luffs drove the price up.
Unless you have older semi-competitive boats around for less than $2000, the end is nigh! (and before you say, no home made foils are not considered semi-competitive)

[gui]

So, what you are selling here is........an uncompetitive moth........ for $4,000. You have to be kidding right! ....."Tell im ee's dreamin"
The re-death of this class is not far away now if unrealistic prices continue. As soon as the current backbone sailors of the class move on, there will be NO juniors or new sailors with enough money to afford to sail them.
I was involved last time round when carbon hulls and pocket luffs drove the price up.
Unless you have older semi-competitive boats around for less than $2000, the end is nigh! (and before you say, no home made foils are not considered semi-competitive)

Did you just fart in my thread!
I would put my boat at the same level as a BR, so yes, probably not competitive. Was that not clear in the add? I sold my last boat for 4k, it was resold not too long ago for 4.5k. I figured I may not be too far off. Not my fault if it takes upward of 7-8k to build your own.
Sheesh.
G.

[rtrs]

$4000 is perfectly reasonable for a working, well built Foiling moth that is "off the pace". A boat you can learn with, have a ton of fun on, etc.

And I don't think the fact that used boats are at this price point is a bad sign for the class. Go compare it to some other fast boats. It's not a fucking laser.

So, what you are selling here is........an uncompetitive moth........ for $4,000. You have to be kidding right! ....."Tell im ee's dreamin"
The re-death of this class is not far away now if unrealistic prices continue. As soon as the current backbone sailors of the class move on, there will be NO juniors or new sailors with enough money to afford to sail them.
I was involved last time round when carbon hulls and pocket luffs drove the price up.
Unless you have older semi-competitive boats around for less than $2000, the end is nigh! (and before you say, no home made foils are not considered semi-competitive)

Did you just fart in my thread!
I would put my boat at the same level as a BR, so yes, probably not competitive. Was that not clear in the add? I sold my last boat for 4k, it was resold not too long ago for 4.5k. I figured I may not be too far off. Not my fault if it takes upward of 7-8k to build your own.
Sheesh.
G.

[barney]

Unless you have older semi-competitive boats around for less than $2000, the end is nigh! (and before you say, no home made foils are not considered semi-competitive)

sub 2000USD would be awesome, unfortunately the cheapest moths in Europe are about 6000USD. These are the prowlers, br's are more expensive!

[MT14er]

Until you can nail your foiling jibes (which is damn hard) there is no need for a "competative boat". This price is very reasonable, plus its the most fun you can have with your pants on. Show me another sailboat that can go over 20 kts and costs less than $10,000.

[Poida]

Hmm 20 knots for less than 10k. Didn't set much of a challenge there.
14', 49er, 505, Sharpie, Cherub, Skate, and racing Cats will go 20 knots for less than 10k if that is all you want. The list goes on.
Perhaps you mean 30knots.
.
It's very easy to sit in front of a computer and pretend people have $5000 sitting around to buy a boat. In reality, there aren't many. Again, seen what happenned last time, the fleets will die out again at these prices (already has in my area). When was the last time you coughed up $5k.

[Phil S]

Doom merchant Poida.
The moth class is booming at present because its just the best ride you can ever have. That is why so many world class sailors sail in the class or have one at home just to sail when they get a break from whatever they do to make a living.
It will never have Laser type numbers because it not only costs a fair bit more but also because not everyone wants to get wet launching and too many people stay away for fear of the unknown. But the class is still selling about 200 boats a year and at present there are at least three other moth builders gearing up to give Mach2 and Macguire a challenge.
There are hundreds of boats like Gui's, other home builds Bladeriders and Prowlers which will no longer win a regatta, but which are perfect for someone old or young to try moth sailing. If they like it then we hope they will move up to the latest competitive design when they are able. If not they will still have the best ride of their life and mabey on sell the boat for someone else to experience the thrill as well.
If you sailed moths in the precarbon days you most likely have better balance skills than are needed today. These new designs when the foil systems are well set up are a dream to sail, heaps easier than an old wide tub with a heavy alloy mast. You really should give one a go. Gui has one going very cheaply.
And if you really think that any of those classes reach 20kts in anything less than extreme conditions you are fantasizing. I have spent a reasonable time sailing slow moths to know that 20kts is not so easy, but I have always been heaps faster than any of these boats.

[atg]

Hmm 20 knots for less than 10k. Didn't set much of a challenge there.
14', 49er, 505, Sharpie, Cherub, Skate, and racing Cats will go 20 knots for less than 10k if that is all you want. The list goes on.
Perhaps you mean 30knots.
.
It's very easy to sit in front of a computer and pretend people have $5000 sitting around to buy a boat. In reality, there aren't many. Again, seen what happenned last time, the fleets will die out again at these prices (already has in my area). When was the last time you coughed up $5k.

Maybe what you want is a radio controlled sailboat? I'm sure there is a forum for that somewhere. Competition is great, the comments back and forth on the dock alone are worth the price of admission. Definitely cost effective.

But if you want the waterborne equivalent of a model airplane that you can ride on, dollar for dollar nothing beats a used moth.

[MT14er]

And if you really think that any of those classes reach 20kts in anything less than extreme conditions you are fantasizing. I have spent a reasonable time sailing slow moths to know that 20kts is not so easy, but I have always been heaps faster than any of these boats.

Exactly, will these boats do 20 kts? Yes. Will they do 20 kts consistantly around a race course? Doubtful.

Here's a better question though, give us a list of 'semi-competative' worldwide class racing sailboats that you can get into for less than $2,000. Sunfish? Opti? And you think that you should be able to get into a class with America's Cup level technology and sailors for the same price?

Gui does good work too. He built my foils and they work very good. I'm sure this boat is well worth the price.

[rtrs]

you can't even buy good quality race ready laser for 2k

[jackson19540316]

Keep it coming, I'm learning fast !

[fastyacht]

Hmm 20 knots for less than 10k. Didn't set much of a challenge there.
14', 49er, 505, Sharpie, Cherub, Skate, and racing Cats will go 20 knots for less than 10k if that is all you want. The list goes on.
Perhaps you mean 30knots.
.
It's very easy to sit in front of a computer and pretend people have $5000 sitting around to buy a boat. In reality, there aren't many. Again, seen what happenned last time, the fleets will die out again at these prices (already has in my area). When was the last time you coughed up $5k.

20 kts in a 505 ain't for the chicken hearted. Also takes rare conditions and big-time skills.

Easiest to do on an F18.

[atg]

Hmm 20 knots for less than 10k. Didn't set much of a challenge there.
14', 49er, 505, Sharpie, Cherub, Skate, and racing Cats will go 20 knots for less than 10k if that is all you want. The list goes on.
Perhaps you mean 30knots.
.
It's very easy to sit in front of a computer and pretend people have $5000 sitting around to buy a boat. In reality, there aren't many. Again, seen what happenned last time, the fleets will die out again at these prices (already has in my area). When was the last time you coughed up $5k.

20 kts in a 505 ain't for the chicken hearted. Also takes rare conditions and big-time skills.

Easiest to do on an F18.

It is very easy to sit in front of a computer and pretend that boat x, y or z will zoom around at 20 knots. Well-sailed moths eat all of those boats for lunch.

[fastyacht]

Hmm 20 knots for less than 10k. Didn't set much of a challenge there.
14', 49er, 505, Sharpie, Cherub, Skate, and racing Cats will go 20 knots for less than 10k if that is all you want. The list goes on.
Perhaps you mean 30knots.
.
It's very easy to sit in front of a computer and pretend people have $5000 sitting around to buy a boat. In reality, there aren't many. Again, seen what happenned last time, the fleets will die out again at these prices (already has in my area). When was the last time you coughed up $5k.

20 kts in a 505 ain't for the chicken hearted. Also takes rare conditions and big-time skills.

Easiest to do on an F18.

It is very easy to sit in front of a computer and pretend that boat x, y or z will zoom around at 20 knots. Well-sailed moths eat all of those boats for lunch.

Yes, that is absolutely true--on a reach, with a sailor who has figured it all out.
15 knots is easy on a cat. 20 knots not so. Moth's top speed is certainly higher. I saw that with my own eyes last week!

[Phil S]

From personal experience a poor moth with an average sailor will do 11kts upwind and 20 just downwind. A good moth with an average sailor will do 16kts upwind and 23kts downwind in 15-20kt wind. I know form seeing it that champion sailors in good moths do 17kts upwind and 26kts downwind in similar conditions.
Reaching in a moth is the most difficult angle to sail, we no longer have reaching legs in our races, The apparent comes forward so fast with accelleration that you just have to bear away to stay upright, making getting to the mark very hard. Trying to reach is where newcomers usually come unstuck.

[atg]

Phil definitely has more experience racing with the pointy end than I do, but I recall Dalton Bergan saying that before he went to Belmont, he considered 25 knots fast downwind. In Belmont, he said he was doing 25 knots offwind, looked around, and saw that he was being passed.

The emphasis upon speed is somewhat misleading as every knot faster downwind allows one to point lower, so even a little bit faster offwind results in a huge gain. At least if the wheels stay on.

[aus2479]

As a non Mach 2 sailor who was firmly in the bottom 3rd of the fleet I can say there is no boat where easier speed is achieved. I went over 25 knots at Belmont although certaintly didn't average it on legs.
Speed is misleading though, I often have okay speed but terrible vmg.
Interesting to hear the current wc say gps's are a wank factor and hasn't used one. There are people who would disaggree with that though.

[Poida]

Don't get me wrong. The moth is a great class. I had a all carbon boat prior to the foils entering the class and stopped sailing due to the costs for a new comptitive boat being too high so I'm not just bashing the class from afar. Just trying to point out the elephant in the room that everybody else seems happy to ignore.
How does a junior that wants to enter the class afford a $10k semi-competitive boat let alone a $20k+ new boat?
Is the association not at all concerned about the loss of it's junior group.
I think the wings are great, but surely they would add another $5k+ to the price. Better just to let sail area increase if more power is needed.

[Phil S]

Don't get me wrong. The moth is a great class. I had a all carbon boat prior to the foils entering the class and stopped sailing due to the costs for a new comptitive boat being too high so I'm not just bashing the class from afar. Just trying to point out the elephant in the room that everybody else seems happy to ignore.
How does a junior that wants to enter the class afford a $10k semi-competitive boat let alone a $20k+ new boat?
Is the association not at all concerned about the loss of it's junior group.
I think the wings are great, but surely they would add another $5k+ to the price. Better just to let sail area increase if more power is needed.

Any other dinghy class capable of moth type speeds cost 2 or 3 times as much. (Thats boats not boards and kites.) Juniors do not get into them. For that matter I do not see juniors sailing kites or boards either.

The association is quite happy with about 200 new boats each year for the last 5+ years.

Moths are rarely looking for more power but drag reduction from a wing might be a benefit.

The moth class is what it is today because it has nearly 80 years of history, where minimal rules have allowed experimentation and development. Very rarely has anything new ever been restricted beyond the intention of the few basic rules: 3.35m long, 8sqM in one sail, 2.25m wide, monohull dinghy.

Every now and then some myopic one design people say that development should be restricted. Sometiimes they break out and form a new class. In the 1960s some of them formed the Europe class. If you want a non development moth try a Europe.

[RobG]

[...] Just trying to point out the elephant in the room that everybody else seems happy to ignore.
How does a junior that wants to enter the class afford a $10k semi-competitive boat let alone a $20k+ new boat?
Is the association not at all concerned about the loss of it's junior group.

The class should be concerned with the objects of its consitution (the important 2 below):

• To encourage the development of the International Moth Class, and the establishment of National Associations in all Countries.
  
• To promote and encourage racing of International Moths.

There is nothing in there about promoting any particular group, just Moths in general. If the class thinks it needs more juniors to survive, it can do something about that, but restricting the class somehow to significantly reduce cost is unlikely to be one of them given the likely ramficiations.

I agree that the cost is prohibitive for those with lesser bugets, many struggle to get into a reasonable 420 for under $6k (or more than twice that new). But that's not a good reason to change the class rules.

Moths are a development class, they can't be all things to all people. They do what they do very well and at a reasonable price, all else considered. There are plenty of options, but you get what you pay for.

[Poida]

Don't get me wrong. The moth is a great class. I had a all carbon boat prior to the foils entering the class and stopped sailing due to the costs for a new comptitive boat being too high so I'm not just bashing the class from afar. Just trying to point out the elephant in the room that everybody else seems happy to ignore.
How does a junior that wants to enter the class afford a $10k semi-competitive boat let alone a $20k+ new boat?
Is the association not at all concerned about the loss of it's junior group.
I think the wings are great, but surely they would add another $5k+ to the price. Better just to let sail area increase if more power is needed.

Any other dinghy class capable of moth type speeds cost 2 or 3 times as much. (Thats boats not boards and kites.) Juniors do not get into them. For that matter I do not see juniors sailing kites or boards either.

The association is quite happy with about 200 new boats each year for the last 5+ years.

Moths are rarely looking for more power but drag reduction from a wing might be a benefit.

The moth class is what it is today because it has nearly 80 years of history, where minimal rules have allowed experimentation and development. Very rarely has anything new ever been restricted beyond the intention of the few basic rules: 3.35m long, 8sqM in one sail, 2.25m wide, monohull dinghy.

Every now and then some myopic one design people say that development should be restricted. Sometiimes they break out and form a new class. In the 1960s some of them formed the Europe class. If you want a non development moth try a Europe.

+ 1 for leaving the rules as they are - ie a full development class. It is unique and has proven to keep the class as an interest to others by staying at the leading edge.

It's just sad that the days of building your own boat in the shed on a tight budget are long gone.

[FishAintBiting]

+ 1 for leaving the rules as they are - ie a full development class. It is unique and has proven to keep the class as an interest to others by staying at the leading edge.

It's just sad that the days of building your own boat in the shed on a tight budget are long gone.

Hence start a new development class based on the moth, using most of the moth rules but:

- put a minimum weight of the hull with wings at 30kg (this is a stab in the dark but should mean you don't have to be Einstein to achieve this)

- maximum length of 15 feet

- same width and sail area

- NO lifting the boat vertically up foils (as in what the moths use at the end of the centreboard and rudder currently, that make it look like a "T")

Would certainly have interest from me.

Happy sailing,

Fish :-)

[FishAintBiting]

+ 1 for leaving the rules as they are - ie a full development class. It is unique and has proven to keep the class as an interest to others by staying at the leading edge.

It's just sad that the days of building your own boat in the shed on a tight budget are long gone.

Hence start a new development class based on the moth, using most of the moth rules but:

- put a minimum weight of the hull with wings at 30kg (this is a stab in the dark but should mean you don't have to be Einstein to achieve this)

- maximum length of 15 feet

- same width and sail area

- NO lifting the boat vertically up foils (as in what the moths use at the end of the centreboard and rudder currently, that make it look like a "T")

Would certainly have interest from me.

Happy sailing,

Fish :-)

Oops ...

and only one daggerboard and one rudder

[atg]

+ 1 for leaving the rules as they are - ie a full development class. It is unique and has proven to keep the class as an interest to others by staying at the leading edge.

It's just sad that the days of building your own boat in the shed on a tight budget are long gone.

Hence start a new development class based on the moth, using most of the moth rules but:

- put a minimum weight of the hull with wings at 30kg (this is a stab in the dark but should mean you don't have to be Einstein to achieve this)

- maximum length of 15 feet

- same width and sail area

- NO lifting the boat vertically up foils (as in what the moths use at the end of the centreboard and rudder currently, that make it look like a "T")

Would certainly have interest from me.

Happy sailing,

Fish :-)

Oops ...

and only one daggerboard and one rudder

I'm sure someone has suggested putting moth-type racks and rig on an a-cat hull; Steve Clark had one with racks and a trap but just racks would go fine I'm sure. Plenty of tooling around and old boats. Maybe hard to tack. Using a DC hull is another option - 17' rather than 18. But this has all been said before.

Foils are an issue but personally I don't see why they have to cost much more than a regular daggerboard if we can get rid of the flappy stuff.

[MT14er]

+ 1 for leaving the rules as they are - ie a full development class. It is unique and has proven to keep the class as an interest to others by staying at the leading edge.

It's just sad that the days of building your own boat in the shed on a tight budget are long gone.

It would be cool if it was a bit easier to build a moth on the cheap, but I put together a reasonably good boat for about $5000. Is it competative with a Mach 2? Certainly not, but I'd also claim that having the fastest moth right out of the box as a beginner is totally unnecesary. The foiling moth requires a totally new skill set which simply does not exist on any other kind of boat. Until you can easitly do foiling jibes and tacks you will never be competative in a major moth race no matter what kind of boat you have. If you want to get into the moth class, just get any boat you can and learn how to sail it. Once you can keep it upright around a race course you can start worring about having the fastest equipment.

[WCB]

While we're talking about Moths, I have a question. I went out today in some good breeze and the boat foiled but only slightly, just clearing the wave tops. My vang was a mess and I could never get it tight enough so I know that's a needed fix but what else might be causing me to ride so low?

[FoilerMothGuy]

Suggest you check main foil angle of attack, check your gear ratio (wand movement/flap movement), make sure you don't have any slop in the linkage system (check the bellcrank and rod, check the linkage rod where it attaches to the pivot block, check the wand in the pivot block) and if all that looks okay then your wand may have been too short?

[WCB]

Thanks for the tips. I'll go through the system and check it out. I think the wand is long enough but I'll measure that too, I have some work to do to dial the boat in for sure.

[FoilerMothGuy]

Also, check how soft your wand is - these days the mantra is the stiffer the better, because any time your wand is bending is time when the boat isn't reacting.

[WCB]

Now that could be an interesting one...I'll have to keep a better eye on it next time. Thanks again for the suggestions!

[FoilerMothGuy]

One final thought - your deck rod may also be bending resulting in a loss of "signal" from the wand. Mine used to do that so I enclosed it in a carbon tube from the bulkhead to a mount in just front of the centreboard case. Immediately made it more reactive and allowed more control when flying high. Also, do you have a dial adjuster? That will allow you to tweak your deck rod length and get the boat flying a touch higher.

[Ncik]

While we're talking about Moths, I have a question. I went out today in some good breeze and the boat foiled but only slightly, just clearing the wave tops. My vang was a mess and I could never get it tight enough so I know that's a needed fix but what else might be causing me to ride so low?

are there any good mothies near you? easiest fix is to ask them to help with setup. most will be very happy to help.

[jkdubs808]

Another question for you Mothies....how big are y'all sailing these things? Finn-sized guy a bit too big for these boats? They've always looked like fun but at 6'2" 225 lbs I figured I'm too big.

[barney]

225 lbs is not unprecedented in the Moth. I'm 6'6'' but I weight less. If you're agile enough - which isn't the case with most oldschool Finn sailors - you should be fine.

[WCB]

One final thought - your deck rod may also be bending resulting in a loss of "signal" from the wand. Mine used to do that so I enclosed it in a carbon tube from the bulkhead to a mount in just front of the centreboard case. Immediately made it more reactive and allowed more control when flying high. Also, do you have a dial adjuster? That will allow you to tweak your deck rod length and get the boat flying a touch higher.

That was a problem so a month or two ago I installed a carbon tube as well and that made a big difference. Before the horizontal rod deflected on the deck and I got no lift.

I do have a dial adjuster but it isn't set up yet, it is part of the system though so I'm wondering if I let it spin and I should have played with it while sailing. I need to spend some time on the rigging aspect of the boat this coming winter/spring.

Ncik - no mothies near me but Richard Davies helped me a lot last Fall when I went to the Turkey Day regatta in Newport Beach, CA. I'm hoping to hit an event in the Spring and then the Worlds if possible.

[jkdubs808]

225 lbs is not unprecedented in the Moth. I'm 6'6'' but I weight less. If you're agile enough - which isn't the case with most oldschool Finn sailors - you should be fine.

Not 'old school' as I'm only 29 lol. Hmmmmm, maybe I'll look into getting a used one then.

[barney]

I didn't mean to offend you... What I meant was that there's two way to sail a Finn. One is to put on some weight (usually this is given) and just droop hike. Alternatively you can be a bit more athletic and use a lots of kinetics upwind and pump like hell downhill.

[jkdubs808]

I'm a lot more of the latter lol.

Moths always looked like fun and a challenge to get it down pat. Both of which are right up my alley.

[aus2479]

While we are asking off topic questions, anyone have an idea why my mainfoil seems to stall when I try it lean it on top of myself upwind in breeze? Often I'm a sitting in in far to much breeze just to stop the boat capsizing to windward, it's not like I am even pointing very high and am not foiling high. Ideas?

[SeaWay]

Aus2479:

Vang Vang Vang!!! Nice tight leech when your on the foils will give you something to lean against. That help with the speed, more speed more lift from your foils and you'll fly higher.

I had a very similar problem to yourself (no power uphill, poor pointing and I couldn't get out on the racks), and more aggressive vang has helped. Also check the leech of your sail with max vang and make sure thee isn't any sag mid leech or at the head, that's all power your leaving behind uphill.

Hope this helps

BTW I'm all for the big boys getting into moths, 6'2" and 100kg (220lb) and loving the challenge!

SW

[MT14er]

^^^ SW has it right. When in doubt, MORE VANG. I'm at 16:1 on the vang and I generally vary between really tight for uphill to not quite as really tight for reaching. If you aren't worried about your vang lines exploding on occasion, you aren't using enough vang.

[barney]

^^^ SW has it right. When in doubt, MORE VANG. I'm at 16:1 on the vang and I generally vary between really tight for uphill to not quite as really tight for reaching. If you aren't worried about your vang lines exploding on occasion, you aren't using enough vang.

Since I saw the picture from Belmont of a boat without a mast stump, I'm worried about breaking the boat with the vang...

Or yours for that matter.

--

Maybe we need a Moth thread which is likely to be always on the front page of dinghy anarchy, like the DC thread.

[WCB]

Anybody have a link to the results or a write up about the US Moth Nationals that just happened in Hawaii? Also, what are the dates of the Worlds next year? I have to continue my sales pitch with the wife.

I think the problem I was having last weekend was the vang. My wife showed me some pictures she took and my leech was wide open. I knew it would be as I was having trouble with my vang so it's time to rig up the boat in the yard and dial that vang in before I make any other changes.

[Phil S]

The stiffest mast you can imagine and 24:1 on the vang and pull it hard. If you have a recent Mach2 it will be OK. Some earlier M2s broke stumps and booms when treated this hard. Other older boats probably need stiffenning. Stronger boom is good. A compession strut from the top of stump to the bow is a good option.
To foil fast upwind you need a very flat sail with minimal twist.

[MT14er]

Since I saw the picture from Belmont of a boat without a mast stump, I'm worried about breaking the boat with the vang...

Yes, I'm sure that vang pressure contributed to blowing the stump off my boat If the quest for speed leads you to breaking your boat, then you need a stronger boat. Broken boat stories are much more exciting than slow boat stories. Sail it like you stole it

[jkdubs808]

BTW I'm all for the big boys getting into moths, 6'2" and 100kg (220lb) and loving the challenge!

SW

That is very inspiring SW. It always looked like the Moths were for Laser sized guys. I guess once you get it up on the foils the overall weight doesn't matter quite as much. I'm a speed junkie so rather than get myself beat up a lot on I14s (sailed them a lot) or a Musto Skiff I'd much rather get into a foiling Moth.

[WCB]

jkdubs,

Not that you need more encouragement but I'm 6'3", 204lbs. Digging the Moth for sure.

[RobG]

I think the problem I was having last weekend was the vang. My wife showed me some pictures she took and my leech was wide open. I knew it would be as I was having trouble with my vang so it's time to rig up the boat in the yard and dial that vang in before I make any other changes.

Skiffies often ask why Moths have their leech so tight. If you see how flat the top guys have their sail in breeze, you'll wonder why they go to a sailmaker at all, it looks like a flat sheet of monofilm could do the job.

Some are using vangs at 32:1 or 48:1 to make them easy to adjust, but be careful not to break things (pitch polling with the vang really cranked on may break mast and boom). High ratios also reduce the travel, so the leech is somewhere between tight and f@#$ing tight.

[barney]

Since I saw the picture from Belmont of a boat without a mast stump, I'm worried about breaking the boat with the vang...

Yes, I'm sure that vang pressure contributed to blowing the stump off my boat If the quest for speed leads you to breaking your boat, then you need a stronger boat. Broken boat stories are much more exciting than slow boat stories. Sail it like you stole it

Really like your attitude, however after hours (or days) of repair in the garage sometimes make me wonder that this particular strong wind sailing session was worth it.

[WCB]

I think the problem I was having last weekend was the vang. My wife showed me some pictures she took and my leech was wide open. I knew it would be as I was having trouble with my vang so it's time to rig up the boat in the yard and dial that vang in before I make any other changes.

Skiffies often ask why Moths have their leech so tight. If you see how flat the top guys have their sail in breeze, you'll wonder why they go to a sailmaker at all, it looks like a flat sheet of monofilm could do the job.

Some are using vangs at 32:1 or 48:1 to make them easy to adjust, but be careful not to break things (pitch polling with the vang really cranked on may break mast and boom). High ratios also reduce the travel, so the leech is somewhere between tight and f@#$ing tight.

Thanks Rob. I'm confident that's the issue with my boat. I tried a fix on the water but it was too windy and wavy to get my vang adjusted and that only made it worse. If it wasn't snowing like mad at my house right now, I'd be working on the boat.

[c maas]

Poor gui. I wonder if his Moth is still for sale.

[WCB]

Somebody should snap Gui's boat up. I wish I could have built my homebuild for the price he's asking for his. If I had known, I would have just waited and bought his and saved myself a ton of time.

[Reht]

I'd be on top of it in a heart beat if I could afford it (time and money). Moths look like an amazing class and they aren't slowing down (in every sense)...

[gui]

Poor gui. I wonder if his Moth is still for sale.

Still is! Make me less poor and buy my boat! Got plenty of kids and a wife to feed, they can only fast for so long.
SAVE THE LITTLE gui's!

[Reht]

Poor gui. I wonder if his Moth is still for sale.

Still is! Make me less poor and buy my boat! Got plenty of kids and a wife to feed, they can only fast for so long.
SAVE THE LITTLE gui's!

How far are you willing to move it?

[gui]

Poor gui. I wonder if his Moth is still for sale.

Still is! Make me less poor and buy my boat! Got plenty of kids and a wife to feed, they can only fast for so long.
SAVE THE LITTLE gui's!

How far are you willing to move it?

~10 yards.

[RobG]

Poor gui. I wonder if his Moth is still for sale.

I'm sure the free advertising and off-topic bumps (6,200+ views) are making him miserable. :-(

[gui]

Poor gui. I wonder if his Moth is still for sale.

I'm sure the free advertising and off-topic bumps (6,200+ views) are making him miserable. :-(

Cheap but not free, I remember the add being around $50.
6200 views and a grand total of five emails.

[freamo]

did you put it on either of these?

http://mothforsale.f...and=0&Itemid=23

http://www.mothmart....y/foiling-moth/

[barney]

quick question, the latest mach2.2 update got me thinking...
what's the difference between changing the gearing at the bow or at the bell crank?

[Phil S]

The Mach 2 mechanism has a belcrank with approx 40mm legs while the bow adjuster offset can be from about 20mm to 50mm. So the bow adjuster at max increases the movement of the flap by 50/20 or 250%. If you put an adjuster on top of the bellcrank with the same range of adjustment it needs to be 2.5 x 40mm or 100mm high which would get in the way, and be subject to accidental damage. Some of us tried belcrank adjusters using 40mm screws but we have found that the range available makes very little difference.
At the last AUS nationals on Port Philip Bay, the max range was needed to get downwind in the big waves.
(please no one tell me my measurements are wrong because they probably are, my boat is not where I am and I have not measured anything, all my guesses are based on memory, but the principle is true.)
And I talked to AMAC and Simon at Garda and have since made my own version of the 2.2 bow adjuster. Not as smick as the one in SPayne's Blog but it works good enough for me.

[skiffboy]

Aus2479:

Vang Vang Vang!!! Nice tight leech when your on the foils will give you something to lean against. That help with the speed, more speed more lift from your foils and you'll fly higher.

I had a very similar problem to yourself (no power uphill, poor pointing and I couldn't get out on the racks), and more aggressive vang has helped. Also check the leech of your sail with max vang and make sure thee isn't any sag mid leech or at the head, that's all power your leaving behind uphill.

Hope this helps

BTW I'm all for the big boys getting into moths, 6'2" and 100kg (220lb) and loving the challenge!

SW

I see the missus has you on a diet? Probably for the best.

[barney]

Thanks Phil!

[barney]

How's the twist grip on the M2 working so nicely? Mine is pretty crappy compared to this. It seems to be moving easily and fast at the same time. He moves the pin through the whole range in a second or so. On my boat it takes al least 20 revolutions, I'm guessing the worm screw has a different pitch. My twist-grip is made of some kind of deldrin/nylon/danamid, it's a tight fit, not so easy to adjust while the rudder is loaded.

[IanA.]

Is Amac using the Easy Rigging PBO for shrouds and forestay? I thought the 2.5mm dyform was all the rage?

[Phil S]

Pretty sure AMAC had dyform. I saw some carbon at Garda but I do not remember any PBO

[RobG]

Great hijack…

what's the difference between changing the gearing at the bow or at the bell crank?

They also work in opposite directions. Longer actuator arm at the wand gives more flap movement. Opposite at the bellcrank (i.e. longer arm where hz pushrod connects gives less flap movement).

[constantijn]

both Amac, Mike Lennon and myself were running PBO at the worlds

[dcb3]

Gui I sure hope you've sold it by now? How about a plug and play M2!

http://sailinganarch...show-ad/?id=83/

[atg]

I'm pretty sure Gui has moved on to an even more interesting boat.

[gui]

Gui I sure hope you've sold it by now? How about a plug and play M2!

http://sailinganarch...show-ad/?id=83/

Thanks for the pointer, while the moth is a great boat, I'm afraid I'm mostly done sailing them. I don't think what I'm hopping to move on to (still a pipe dream according to my smart 1/2) is any more interesting than the moth, just different.
In the meantime, I'm building a very long board, D2 style, but a bit longer. I sent out a rough design to my bro to have it transmogrified into something that will float. Started cutting the strips ... and hopping to start building the jig next week end.
Moth didn't sale. I'm trying to trade it for a nice stitch and glue tortured ply canoe hull, but the builders seem to be busy doing other things. damn.

[bc islander]

Keep it.

[gui]

Looks like I will. I'm sure I'll be happy to get out on it every now and then ...
Meanwhile, here's the latest stupidity that came out of my shed. Long MD winter don't do good things
to my sailing brain ...

Attached Files

•  photo.JPG   147.63K   110 downloads

[DaveK]

And? WTF is it?

[gui]

And? WTF is it?

dunno yet, I just sort of pooped it out of my shed. Facking winters.

[nbb]

holy shit dinghy sailors are cheap fuckers

[bc islander]

Ya I know what you mean about long winters, three years ago I took my old first gen fiberglass Fireball and put an old Hobii 18 rig on it that a friend had. Then I put 2'6" wings on then then another trapeze and finely an eight foot retractable spinnaker pole. I got a buddy to cut down an old asymmetrical that he had, all that just so my two boys could keep up to me on my 49er. We call it the beast, it's scary but a lot of fun. Just a side note, should have gone two more feet on the wings.

[gui]

Ya I know what you mean about long winters, three years ago I took my old first gen fiberglass Fireball and put an old Hobii 18 rig on it that a friend had. Then I put 2'6" wings on then then another trapeze and finely an eight foot retractable spinnaker pole. I got a buddy to cut down an old asymmetrical that he had, all that just so my two boys could keep up to me on my 49er. We call it the beast, it's scary but a lot of fun. Just a side note, should have gone two more feet on the wings.

I see ... That seems up there in terms of stupid . Pics please.

[BEZ]

Wait, wait, wait!...The Moth never sold?!?

 

...Umm, color me interested.

[Mainah]

Gui,

 

I sent you a message re: your moth.  Give me a shout.