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The World At War


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#1 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:37 AM

the world at war

After a half-decade of recession, the US economic recovery has stalled. Europe's economy is crumbling, with Eurozone unemployment reaching record highs and little hope for improvement on the horizon. Even the far East is suffering.

Conventional wisdom would say an expensive sport like sailboat racing should suffer big losses in participation, especially at their most expensive-to-compete-at events, and with the plethora of competing designs and the ever-escalating cost of travel, lodging, and boat upkeep.

So why are some of the highest-profile racing classes having their best year ever at their biggest events, both in terms of participation and sponsorship?

Consider:
· The International 5O5 – not a cheap dinghy by any stretch of the imagination – just finished their record-breaking 188-boat Worlds in politically and economically charged France.
· 126 Melges 24s – also an all-time Worlds record for the Class -- are racing in Lake Garda this week, nearly all of them traveling hundreds or thousands of miles to compete. Nothing about Lake Garda is cheap.

· 33 Melges 32s are forecast to sail their Worlds in Newport next month; likely another all-time record in a Class whose costs have been known to make ordinary folks' eyes bleed, and which just signed a charter jet company as a sponsor. And did we mention it was in Newport, at the NYYC?

· The Farr40 Worlds next month in Chicago will likely be the first respectable fleet in years, despite the expense of sailing in one of the USA's biggest cities and the logistics involved in getting a boat to the landlocked Midwest.

· The Farr 30 Class has their biggest Worlds fleet since 2008; 19 boats from seven countries are racing in Bastad, Sweden starting Thursday. The 2013 Worlds is likely to take place in Newport, with an even bigger fleet likely to attend, and the big Swedish Class just signed a Class title sponsor for next year's schedule.

· 104 boats are already registered for October's A-Class Catamaran Worlds in the Florida Keys, and they're shipping their pricey little rocket ships in from literally all over the planet.

In the 7 years I've been researching and writing for SA, I've never seen a year with this kind of growth across so many Worlds fleets, and I'm not exactly sure what to make of it. I have some ideas and plan to spend some time trying to better understand how they've been so successful, but am very curious about what the intelligent folks on this site can come up with.

So what do you think is going on here?



#2 btbotfa

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:55 AM

Regardless of the bigger economic picture, the high-end, one percenters, ten percenters, whatever you want to call them, and the businesses that service that world are doing well and have been for two years, if not more. Certain parts of this economy are booming.

#3 DRIFTW00D

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:08 PM

Because they are SAIL BOATS. Winds still free.




#4 zzrider

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:24 PM

There will always be a 1% with enough excess money to spend on obscenely expensive hobbies like sailboat racing at the highest level of competition.

A far better gauge of overall economic health is what the average middle class is able to spend on such pursuits. How's the market for used boats these days? How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?

#5 Paps

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:37 PM

I agree. Same reason the super yacht builders books are filled for years to come (source Financial Times or Wall St Journal))

The people that are doing well are doing very well thank you very much.

#6 bgytr

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:51 PM

There will always be a 1% with enough excess money to spend on obscenely expensive hobbies like sailboat racing at the highest level of competition.

A far better gauge of overall economic health is what the average middle class is able to spend on such pursuits. How's the market for used boats these days? How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?



This is a good point.
I look at my father and others in his demographic- how their prior peer group has changed, 30-40 foot club racer/cruisers. There continues to be sustained racing in older boats like J30s and similar somewhat clunky but ok boats. The performance oriented newer boats in the 30-40 foot range are rarely owned by average middle-class workers anymore. My old man was a local lawyer who did an honest living, but can no longer afford to sail the type of boat he used to own. So he's out of the sport.
Myself, a professional engineer with graduate degree and kids? I have no time, and no expendable cash to think about boat ownership other than my 15 foot tub-like daysailer to go out on an occasional afternoon luch trip. Campaign a 30+ foot newer boat? The dream is getting dimmer each year. Back in the 60-70s, my demographic made up that group, racer/cruiser club sailor. Now the 30-40 foot performance club sailor is a law partner, medium to large business owner, or the like. Look at a boat like the J111. 300K to get to the water? The average educated middle-class professional family guy is to a point where the sport as a family endeavor is just about gone.

#7 davidprobable

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:09 PM

The sport is all but gone to the "middle class" because of lack of interest in the process. Racing a 40' plus boat is an aggro now. Rules, rules and more rules. Plus decency and manners are gone from this level of racing due to one design war mentality. It simply is no longer any fun and I don't want to be stuck in a race where yelling is the standard. Hell we used to race IOR A with only conversational level orders and no desire for boat contact. Now with the old crew in zimmer frames and the young people only interested in dinghies because they can't afford a keel boat and crew, and want planing speed that they consider paramount to power through large waves (believe it or not they get seasick), there simply is no reason to race except perhaps for the odd pursuit fun race. We got into larger boats for growth and for fun. Growth is over as boat builders and designers are gone, killed off by one design. The Farr Group tried to give away their molds and nobody wanted them. The Farr Group has done the most to kill middle class growth by destroying all the small builders and small designers. Hell the Canada's Cup is even stuck with Farr 40's. We used to try to get ahead through design and creativity. Now it is just one design and yelling and cursing and faux comaradarie. Racing will continue to wain and die until constant design creativity and small builders return. Look at the old SORC pictures and all the different kinds of boats that used to show up rafted 12 deep. Not anymore. Just the Farr and Jboat one designs basically. Who gives a crap for that.

#8 GybeSet®

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:20 PM

.
your insight is rather underwhelming

the only 'war' is a class one where the rich are getting richer

wait till China turns the screws a bit

#9 Glitter In The Eye

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:27 PM

the rich are still rich and the people who thought or lived like they had money might be hurting.

#10 davidprobable

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:37 PM

.
your insight is rather underwhelming

the only 'war' is a class one where the rich are getting richer

wait till China turns the screws a bit



I saw this type of verbiage from the " Occupy " types. Rich is not a class. It is a net worth status tied to liquidity. You mistake bling for wealth. As for China, it has no screws to turn. You may have forgotten that all US debt, to China or otherwise, is in US dollars. In other words, in reality, the USA has no debt. It could be gone in the stroke of a pen. I know, I know, there are huge implications therein, but continuing debt is not one of them. The US is big enough to have its own internal economy and is now finding sufficient sources of carbon based fuels internally or from Canada to write off the middle east except for the current future which is tied to easy profit. But it is not fatal to the USA. Going back to your comic book view of "rich", it is all relative. Our so called poor look pretty well off to me compared to the third world. The older demographic of sailing just stop spending and are not interested in big dinghies with no interior comforts. Our clubs focus on the kids and all racing is now focused on chasing motorboat speeds in dinghies or big dinghies. My demographic says " ho hum ". Please get out from under your apartment steps cringing from the Chinese and potential loss of your government cheque, and make something of yourself and buy and race an IOR relic which can be acquired on the cheap, thus letting you remain ensconced as a card carrying " Occupier ". Cheers.

#11 Jesse Falsone

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:45 PM

Amazing to me how some people in this thread are eager to promote class warfare. Not all the classes on Clean's list are fraught with "1%ers". However, all of the classes listed are what I would call hard core in their racing. These are the zealots - the people who compete in tough classes for thrill and prestige. All of the classes listed are one-design. 20-30 years ago the people owning and racing in these larger one-designs were the type of people with the hot IOR, IMS, or ultra-light sailing in PHRF. It was competitive sailing back then,and there were plenty of rich people buying nice boats and crew dinners. Now, that level of competition has migrated to one-design sport boats. Gone are the one-off's racing handicap, and the local successful doctor, lawyer, businessman may now be working harder on his golf swing, or perhaps is putting more time/effort/money into their kid's pursuits. It's great to see classes like those listed thriving on the world stage, but these are basically the same people (or type of people) that sailed more disparite boats in competitive handicap racing years ago.

#12 Planing whoo

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:04 PM

The top X% ers are certainly going to be more insulated from the economic downturn. Another factor is more people have been laid off or are in jobs where they are busting their humps, and either have more time to sail or prioritize it more. I know I've definitely been more committed to sailing for the stress release, even if it is just piddling around on a dinghy with the kids. I agree with others though that we middle income folks have been priced out of sailing. It would be nice to have some more affordable options in the 25-40ft range along the lines of the J24, Santa Cruz 27, Hobie 33, Olson 30, etc. Cheap enough that average people can campaign their own OD programs without mortgaging the kids.

#13 gol

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:09 PM

You forgot to mention the all times record fleet of 135 yachts at the ISAF Offshore Championship in Helsinki (FIN)

#14 davidprobable

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:10 PM

One design sport boats are a tiny fraction of the number of boats out there, that race informally and for fun or just sail. These are not the same type of people that raced in the 70's et seq. Most of the 70's and up racers did not do one design and race hi tech dinghies. They were creative people that wanted to be involved in design and build. They did not delegate design and build to the likes of Farr. Witness so many different kinds of boats back then. So many different designers and builders. Now it is ex dinghy brains buying off the shelf. I bet none of them have a clue how to loft a boat. They just know the words cad cam and " lets buy that cause its hot dude". Clean may be impressed, but I see death of the industry.



#15 Ajax

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:10 PM

The original question was:

So why are some of the highest-profile racing classes having their best year ever at their biggest events, both in terms of participation and sponsorship?


High profile racing is intact and/or growing because only the fairly wealthy had access to it in the first place. Those people had greater wealth reserves to weather the rotten economy with little impact on their lives.

I state this dispassionately, and without envy. It's not an attempt to blame or incite class warfare. It's just an opinion that I happen to share based on certain studies and news reports. I'm having fun racing my boat, and sailing with friends at my own socio-economic level. No time to waste on envy and angst.
---------------------------------

The decline of yacht racing for the rest of us? That topic has been beaten to death already. Some of the reasons I saw some anarchists cite (in no particular order):

Growing income disparity (low income growth vs. ever higher costs of living (medical, food, fuel, education, child care, housing))
Easy, affordable access to water is diminishing
Diminishing free time due to longer working hours, and greater family commitments
Labor and materials costs driving new boat prices out of reach
Maintenance costs spiraling out of reach
Unemployment
Lack of civility
"Arms Race" mentality
Unable to generate family enthusiasm for the sport
Inability to recruit and/or retain crew
An increasingly sedentary lifestyle revolving around easily affordable consumer electronics in the home

#16 Ben201

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:21 PM

I think it has also to do with fact that people are spending their savings in materialised assets, like sailboats, rather than keeping them for zero percent. Good one design boats have a well established second market, so if you want to sell, you can pretty fast.Just coming back from the Esse open worlds at Lake Garda, 28 boats and quite a number of well paid pros on a number of boats, so no downturn there as well.

#17 Tejano

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:32 PM

A better question for us 99% would be "How's your LOCAL fleet racing nowadays?". The resounding answers in most cases would be either "It sucks" or "It ain't".

#18 Glitter In The Eye

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:36 PM

I think the answer is somewhere between David Probables insane economic dribble, his IOR statement and Ajax views on grand prix. Affordability and knowledge of how to make your boat faster has changed the landscape of sailing. When I first started you had some literature from the builder or sailmaker in print, now you have internet for quick reference, sharing of ideas and video to help improve performance. Back in the day you could show up to a regatta with a crew that was put together with little or no practice and have a chance to win, now the competition is better and you need better refinement. So my point is that the GRAND PRIX level is enjoying the success becasue more people enjoy putting that kind of time, resources and training into the boat...the rich people that can afford the time.

more people are willing to take on the challenge because the information is out there in the public now and not locked away.

#19 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:53 PM

I think that Clean is waiting to spring some kind of "Well they all advertise on SA" or "They all embrace new media" bullshit.

Assuming he actually does want the answer, the people that can travel around the entire planet to go to "worlds" anything are doing OK. The rest, not so much :rolleyes:
I am seeing it right here where the races and fleets outside of the hard core in Annapolis are NOT growing.

Clean, you tell me this: I was walking past the Ma and Pa Kettle $30K beater airplanes that haven't moved in a year or three over to the gas pump where a guy was putting about $3,000 of Jet-A in his nice new jet. We both remarked that the jet flying scene is doing well and wondered WTF was wrong with all the other planes? Have any ideas?
Who is in trouble right now, GM, Porsche, or Ferrari?


One more thing - What twisted logic suggests the HIGH END will suffer in a bad economy? Mittens still gets his horse shipped to England and back FEDEX. The girl that saves baby-sitting money for an old nag is the one dropping out of horses..............

#20 movable ballast

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:55 PM

For the GP guys yeah the rich are still rich. But few of you noted the 505's and Melgi. These boats are available for not much cash. 3 or 4 young guys with good jobs go in together and buy a boat and race the piss out of it for a few years before settling down with the family. Pretty good fun with good mates and lots of good memories for them. The other side is the boomers deciding fuckit I want to do this and I'm not getting younger so here goes.

#21 usa7776

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:12 PM

I think economics is playing a part in small boat growth. in the 70's, the fleets like the 470, 505 and fd were very big. through the 80's and 90's as we had a big economic expansion, people moved to the big boats and small boats suffered. Today things are tighter, if not in money, then in time and I think there are people moving back to small boats. Also, we are finding that we can stay fit longer then we used to and the gear and clothing has gotten better, so we can play the small boat game longer.

Just my 2 Cents.

#22 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:17 PM

It's not the rich who are broke. It's our governments. They have set out on a course to globalize trade decades ago. Free trade is a good thing in a truely open market over the long run. But, it's painful in the short term. Jobs get out sourced to countries with lower labor costs. And, many western governments impose policies that create the inequities that have driven our middle class jobs offshore. So, in an effort to mask the effects of the long term gutting of our industrial bases, governments have expanded the pension commitments, welfare net and even created the housing bubble.

Those with enough money to invest have made gains from goods that get produced cheaper offshore. They have the disposable income to fund the semi-pro and pro sailing programs that are far more expensive than in the 60's -80's. The number of professional sailors and the number of out of region events they sail in now is ten times what it was 30 -40 years ago. Along with this competition has risen to new levels, which in turn justifies the increased expense. Now we getting more media exposure which again drives up the desire to win, which drives up costs. This spiral can burn owners out pretty quickly. Just take Dr. Laura for example.

There are still a pretty decent number of small boat racers doing their local regattas and just sailing with friends for the fun of it. But, the media spotlight does not shine on them. And that's just fine because their not doing it to earn a pay check or stroke an ego. They are sailing for the fun. While I do enjoy winning, I prefer to sail for the fun. I've got enough stress trying to survive as a small manufacturer in a very expensive region. I just want to sail with my friends and have fun on the weekends. And, if you look around there is still plenty of people doing just that.

#23 MidPack

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:54 PM

I think it is mostly the 1%ers or whatever you want to call them. They're the only ones doing better as a group, which would correlate to higher regatta participation.

After 35+ years sailing and 22 continuous years owning a series of 26-35 foot sailboats, we sold the last boat and quit as boatowners at the end of 2010. The 2008 meltdown woke us up, but it was just too expensive to justify (slips, storage, haulout/launch, entry fees, maint & repairs, fuel, insurance, sail replacement), nothing to do with whether we could afford it or not. So I race on OPB now, though that won't last forever I suspect.

Yes, it's just one data point, but...
  • There are considerably more empty slips at all the marinas around me than ever before, there used to be continuous waiting lists, not any more.
  • We have half as many boats on the line for local PHRF racing as when I started.
  • And resale values/activity seems to have dropped noticeably, who knows if resale will become more robust but I doubt it.
YMMV

#24 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:59 PM

There will always be a 1% with enough excess money to spend on obscenely expensive hobbies like sailboat racing at the highest level of competition.

A far better gauge of overall economic health is what the average middle class is able to spend on such pursuits. How's the market for used boats these days? How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?


At least in the Farr 30 and Melges 24 fleets and presumably in the A-Cat and 5O5, the 1%ers are in short supply. The majority of these boats are no pro, cheap accomodation, pizza for dinner teams, owned by guys with jobs like engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner, whatever, and they have to count their sailing events or they won't be able to make a house payment.

Not all, but the majority. Clearly this doesn't apply in the Melges 32 Class. I think there will be a number of non-rockstar Farr 40 programs in Chicago as well.








#25 Sail_FAU

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:07 PM

Currently 110 boats registered for the F18 Worlds in Long Beach in September. We also had a record 26 boats at our Eastern Area champs last weekend in Hyannis. The boats are fast, durable, reasonably priced, and stupid fun to sail. I own one with another grad student, and although it is a significant commitment for us, we make it work!

#26 dowspread

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:36 PM

Pretty simple really. All of the boats you mention Clean are One Design, and all are, relatively speaking, moderately priced or even downright cheap compared to the cost of building the latest "rule beater" to compete in the grand prix handicap classes.

That the best and most committed sailors are being drawn to one design racing is no mystery:

Every major handicap rule has been, currently is, and will always be an utter failure. Who in the fuck wants to race under any of these shitty rules, it is neither fun nor fair. Face it; handicap racing just doesn't work for amateur sailing. PHRF - if administered by mechanical bureaucrats could work quit well for club racing and is it is capable of providing a reasonable experience for sailors competing in a wide variety of boat type. But it isn't run in a fair minded way anywhere ever. It is administered by a bunch of self serving jackasses interested in protecting their own ratings and punishing any newer boat that might threaten their built in rating advantage. If the "rating disadvantaged" boat owner gets involved in the committees and the politics and finally corrects what may have begun as an actual rating injustice - HE MORPHS INTO THE SELF SERVING AHOLE he once complained about and becomes the next generation of the PHRF Gestapo. Some grand prix someday may work, but by the very nature, measurement rule requires the latest and greatest to be competitive - AND THAT IS AS IT SHOULD BE - sailing's obsession with trying to keep old boats competitive is perhaps the single biggest fuck up hold back the sport. So if you have the cash and want to race handicap at the grand prix level accept that your boat will be obsolete after one season, that’s the game. Do NASCAR or F1 fans fill the stands to watch a car designed with the latest 2012 technology BUT SLOWED DOWN BY HANDICAP REQUIREMENT to enable a more “fair” competition against a car from 5 years ago? Hell no. And at the amateur level, car racing is no different - EVEYONE runs the latest technology, and if you happen to like the old stuff there are vintage car races for those guys. .

Oh, and one more thing on handicap racing: If you don’t know how your scored when you cross the finish line IT IS NOT A SPORT, ITS FUCKING STUPID.

All of the boats that you mention as thriving are relatively modern and relatively fun to sail. There are better newer models. But one design racing requires a concentration of like boats, the choice of boat is driven somewhat by budget. BUT THE PRIMARY CHOICE IS BASED ON THE AVAILABLITY OF ACTIVE RACING IN THE CLASS. Success breeds success in one design racing. As more sailors flee the BS of the handicap system to pursue participation in an actual sport that is fun, the strong classes will get stronger and some new ones, hopefully, will flourish in time.

What you are witnessing Clean is CONSENTRATION. I wish the sport of sailing were growing, but it isn’t. As the administration of the sport under handicap systems has casued racing to become truly horrible, those of us who love the sailing experience and the sport of sailboat racing are seeking out the better, fairer racing experiences provided by one design. This is a perfectly rational transition. You already made point of the 18 Benetau 36.7’s, 11 Benetau 40.7’s, and the 25 T10’s that participated in the 2012 Chi-Mac. I think all three of those boats are hateful pieces of shit (bring it on), but it is all the same theme on the same story. Sailors are transitioning to these boats because they provide a fair method of participating in the sport at a relatively predictable price point.



#27 schoonerman

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:50 PM

Don't forget about 60 Vipers at Marblehead for the NA's Sept 5-9 :P

#28 oddsailor

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

I think it's a case of 'well, the sky is not falling, after all, so let's go sailing.', where people took a break from spending money, took time to adjust to the new economic reality and figured out how to continue enjoying their lives! Sailing is an escapist sport - you go out on the water and all the land-based issue just literally float away, whether you're store-owner worries about your drop in sales or a stock broker worries about volatility in the market. It took a while for the world as it now is to become the new 'normal' and our collective expectations have changed accordingly. And now we're going back on the water, trying to enjoy our new lives as much as possible!

#29 The Black Pearl

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:00 PM

I think we need to look at age. All these classes are sailed by "predominantly older people". When I had the true fortune to start sailing (and I didn't come for a sailing family) my Dad signed me up to a sailing course at local club that was progressive enough at the time for members to offer sailing lessons to local kids. As we've all been got bitten by the big loved racing and bought my first boat. Mirror dinghy! In those day we had Nats with over 200 boats and crews of either father and son / daughter or 2 kids. Other classes in UK weren't too dissimilar in that there was a strong age gradient. In the classes Clean mentions and even in my beloved Moth we really don't have that many younger sailors anymore, and not sure I see them feeding through in the way they used to. So whilst the A cat and 505 are super strong now, what will happen in 10 years when the current crews decided golf is a better option. We need to be careful that the current trends to a few mega classes isn't hiding a longer term trend. I'm forever thankful to the guys who took me under they're wing and taught me to first sail then race for free. And they did it on mass scale! I'm not sure I see that these days, and may be we ned to get back to it

#30 Matt Miller / Hobie Cat

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:01 PM

The economy is not quite as bad as "some" media make it to be. Positive growth and jobs... small maybe, but positive.

I can tell you our business is going gangbusters and has been all along. We don't necessarily serve the 1% nor do most of the one designs mentioned. The middle class is doing just fine I'd bet. People have money and are spending. Most of our suppliers are experiencing very good growth with lead times getting longer and struggles to get enough raw material and labor. All good signs.

#31 achterlijk

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:02 PM

Agreed. I've been strictly OPB for years, but could afford a $5k investment in a Tiger and now we're practicing and going to Long Beach for the Worlds. Keep it cheap, that's the key.

Currently 110 boats registered for the F18 Worlds in Long Beach in September. We also had a record 26 boats at our Eastern Area champs last weekend in Hyannis. The boats are fast, durable, reasonably priced, and stupid fun to sail. I own one with another grad student, and although it is a significant commitment for us, we make it work!





#32 One eye Jack

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:05 PM

If there is a will... There is a way.. If you want to sail you will find a way to do it. You rearrange your budget to be able to afford a boat. You don't buy that new car, you just keep driving that old one, you get a second job, you down scale the dream boat to one that is more into your budget,you find partners, or like in Europe you find sponsers. Sailing is sort of like an addiction..If one wants to sail he will figure out a way to do it.

#33 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:09 PM

Clean,

Maybe someone "saved sailing"

But, seriously, history will help a little. It was during the Great Depression that we last had a massive fleet of J-Class sloops sailing. You didn't include the J-Class but they are booming also and are about as afar away from a A-class Cat as you can get. When there are major financial disturbances it's the folks on the margin who are hurt, not the rich. The labor to support a rich person's toy (like J-Class sloop) is more cheaply bought that before the crash.

It is also helpful to have a look at what the world's stock markets did this last 18 months, especially as so many of the Boomers have moved their wealth from houses to equities. Locally, the DJIA was at about 10,000 in the summer of 2010 and it's at 13,000 now. Many who've seen their retirement funds grow 30%, provided they were tracking the DOW, now feel a lot more flush than they did in 2010. Especially those who watch the DJIA go from 13,000 to 7,000 during the period from from 2007 to 2009. So, despite what a lot of folks moan about, parts of the economy are actually doing rather well.

Finally, the racing component of sailing is doing great but I fear the cruising component isn't as flush. Sailing has become day-sailing and racing has (except for a few notable exceptions) become day-racing. The growth you've highlighted is pretty well matched by a decline in off shore and ocean racing. You're observing a shift in focus not a change in industry size, IMHO.

BV

#34 oddsailor

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:15 PM

Oh, and one more thing on handicap racing: If you don't know how your scored when you cross the finish line IT IS NOT A SPORT, ITS FUCKING STUPID.


+1 couldn't agree more!

sailing is the ONLY sport where you cross the line first and finish last!! Just look at Il Monstro on ChiMac race for proof. It's asinine to think anyone will want to do that, so people that want to win are forced to buy shit boats that rate well and are hated by people that buy fast boats that rate bad - and that is 100% stupid.

Why not create similar development racing classes as to what the motorcycle and car industry have? In motorcycling you have 250/600/1000 engine classes - let's do the same in sailing where 'engine size' is sail area (since sails are the engine) and have designers and manufacturers build some great boats where the only limits are min weight (and that can be a fair size so to not promote ridiculously expensive hulls) and max sail size! Some of you will say 'wait, but that'll drive prices UP!' - I don't think so. If you have multiple classes, there will be a tendency to level pricing for a class so not to bleed into the next adjacent one since then people will just opt to switch. And whatever the racers do can be absorbed into the 'cruising' version, creating a positive feedback loop for innovation within each class. Dingy-wise the Moths and i14s are this way already and for keelboats the Mini Class and the Class 40 look really strong.

One of the biggest issues with OD is that in time the stagnation of the boat design makes it increasingly less-and-less appealing and a whole new OD boat needs to be introduced. This in turn is very expensive for both manufacturers and owners, and it does not promote innovation at more than a snail's pace. In a more 'open' class, you could simply introduce 'vintage' racing, similar to bike/car racing where the older boats are still competitive against each other and people can still sail them and enjoy them without worrying about plummeting value or the need to have the latest-greatest all the time.

In short, a natural progression of technology - without strict OD rules or idiotic ratings that favour stupid designs - would allow sailing to become cheaper, more accessible to normal people (no one understands ratings) and more appealing to a market that enjoys technology!

#35 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:31 PM

I disagree with about half your post.

What you are witnessing Clean is CONCENTRATION.



*THIS* I agree with 100%. Racing used to be where you were. Now you go to one of the places where all the other racers went. If you never strayed more than 6 miles from the City Dock in Annapolis you would think the biggest issue facing racing is where to put all the boats. Meanwhile the Gov Cup seems about 70% off the best years.

#36 The Colonel

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:31 PM

.
your insight is rather underwhelming

the only 'war' is a class one where the rich are getting richer

wait till China turns the screws a bit



Oh the good old days! That Rich Guy looks like he even had fun!

#37 movable ballast

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:38 PM

Oh, and one more thing on handicap racing: If you don’t know how your scored when you cross the finish line IT IS NOT A SPORT, ITS FUCKING STUPID.


Total horse shit! Is handicap golf not a sport or horse racing? Handicap sailboat racing bring way more people into the sport that then may go on and do One Design. Both have thier place to sling shit at either one is being STUPID.

#38 davidprobable

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:49 PM

The original question was:

So why are some of the highest-profile racing classes having their best year ever at their biggest events, both in terms of participation and sponsorship?


High profile racing is intact and/or growing because only the fairly wealthy had access to it in the first place. Those people had greater wealth reserves to weather the rotten economy with little impact on their lives.

I state this dispassionately, and without envy. It's not an attempt to blame or incite class warfare. It's just an opinion that I happen to share based on certain studies and news reports. I'm having fun racing my boat, and sailing with friends at my own socio-economic level. No time to waste on envy and angst.
---------------------------------

The decline of yacht racing for the rest of us? That topic has been beaten to death already. Some of the reasons I saw some anarchists cite (in no particular order):

Growing income disparity (low income growth vs. ever higher costs of living (medical, food, fuel, education, child care, housing))
Easy, affordable access to water is diminishing
Diminishing free time due to longer working hours, and greater family commitments
Labor and materials costs driving new boat prices out of reach
Maintenance costs spiraling out of reach
Unemployment
Lack of civility
"Arms Race" mentality
Unable to generate family enthusiasm for the sport
Inability to recruit and/or retain crew
An increasingly sedentary lifestyle revolving around easily affordable consumer electronics in the home


You are not off the mark......no luffing necessary.

#39 davidprobable

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:02 PM

Pretty simple really. All of the boats you mention Clean are One Design, and all are, relatively speaking, moderately priced or even downright cheap compared to the cost of building the latest "rule beater" to compete in the grand prix handicap classes.

That the best and most committed sailors are being drawn to one design racing is no mystery:

Every major handicap rule has been, currently is, and will always be an utter failure. Who in the fuck wants to race under any of these shitty rules, it is neither fun nor fair. Face it; handicap racing just doesn't work for amateur sailing. PHRF - if administered by mechanical bureaucrats could work quit well for club racing and is it is capable of providing a reasonable experience for sailors competing in a wide variety of boat type. But it isn't run in a fair minded way anywhere ever. It is administered by a bunch of self serving jackasses interested in protecting their own ratings and punishing any newer boat that might threaten their built in rating advantage. If the "rating disadvantaged" boat owner gets involved in the committees and the politics and finally corrects what may have begun as an actual rating injustice - HE MORPHS INTO THE SELF SERVING AHOLE he once complained about and becomes the next generation of the PHRF Gestapo. Some grand prix someday may work, but by the very nature, measurement rule requires the latest and greatest to be competitive - AND THAT IS AS IT SHOULD BE - sailing's obsession with trying to keep old boats competitive is perhaps the single biggest fuck up hold back the sport. So if you have the cash and want to race handicap at the grand prix level accept that your boat will be obsolete after one season, that's the game. Do NASCAR or F1 fans fill the stands to watch a car designed with the latest 2012 technology BUT SLOWED DOWN BY HANDICAP REQUIREMENT to enable a more "fair" competition against a car from 5 years ago? Hell no. And at the amateur level, car racing is no different - EVEYONE runs the latest technology, and if you happen to like the old stuff there are vintage car races for those guys. .

Oh, and one more thing on handicap racing: If you don't know how your scored when you cross the finish line IT IS NOT A SPORT, ITS FUCKING STUPID.

All of the boats that you mention as thriving are relatively modern and relatively fun to sail. There are better newer models. But one design racing requires a concentration of like boats, the choice of boat is driven somewhat by budget. BUT THE PRIMARY CHOICE IS BASED ON THE AVAILABLITY OF ACTIVE RACING IN THE CLASS. Success breeds success in one design racing. As more sailors flee the BS of the handicap system to pursue participation in an actual sport that is fun, the strong classes will get stronger and some new ones, hopefully, will flourish in time.

What you are witnessing Clean is CONSENTRATION. I wish the sport of sailing were growing, but it isn't. As the administration of the sport under handicap systems has casued racing to become truly horrible, those of us who love the sailing experience and the sport of sailboat racing are seeking out the better, fairer racing experiences provided by one design. This is a perfectly rational transition. You already made point of the 18 Benetau 36.7's, 11 Benetau 40.7's, and the 25 T10's that participated in the 2012 Chi-Mac. I think all three of those boats are hateful pieces of shit (bring it on), but it is all the same theme on the same story. Sailors are transitioning to these boats because they provide a fair method of participating in the sport at a relatively predictable price point.




Your polemics would have value if they were accompanied with tits........yours or your boyfriends. You miss the point. One design is surrender to someone else's definition. What is missing is design and build. No new designs coming from sailors and no retention of builders. Just keep buying the chevrolet. You sad sacks contribute nothing to sailing except your opinions based upon nothing. You have offered to fund zero designs and you have built nothing new. Just bought a chevrolet. That's it. Just like Clean you contribute nothing new and just ride along with whatever is the flavour of the month. You are killing sail racing ultimately. It doesn't take a lot of money to build a racer/cruiser, especially if you are French and subsidized by the Euro Zone to the detriment of the USA designer/builders. And for God's sake stop thinking Melges is everything. They are tiny. Their production is shit compared to Benetaux and Jeannaux et alll other froggy subsidized USA killers. Wake up America !

#40 DogBalls

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:12 PM

The sport is all but gone to the "middle class" because of lack of interest in the process. Racing a 40' plus boat is an aggro now. Rules, rules and more rules. Plus decency and manners are gone from this level of racing due to one design war mentality. It simply is no longer any fun and I don't want to be stuck in a race where yelling is the standard. Hell we used to race IOR A with only conversational level orders and no desire for boat contact. Now with the old crew in zimmer frames and the young people only interested in dinghies because they can't afford a keel boat and crew, and want planing speed that they consider paramount to power through large waves (believe it or not they get seasick), there simply is no reason to race except perhaps for the odd pursuit fun race. We got into larger boats for growth and for fun. Growth is over as boat builders and designers are gone, killed off by one design. The Farr Group tried to give away their molds and nobody wanted them. The Farr Group has done the most to kill middle class growth by destroying all the small builders and small designers. Hell the Canada's Cup is even stuck with Farr 40's. We used to try to get ahead through design and creativity. Now it is just one design and yelling and cursing and faux comaradarie. Racing will continue to wain and die until constant design creativity and small builders return. Look at the old SORC pictures and all the different kinds of boats that used to show up rafted 12 deep. Not anymore. Just the Farr and Jboat one designs basically. Who gives a crap for that.

clearly you are stuck in the mud and live in the past.

Dude, get over the good old days and move on.

#41 ProaSailor

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:28 PM


There will always be a 1% with enough excess money to spend on obscenely expensive hobbies like sailboat racing at the highest level of competition.

A far better gauge of overall economic health is what the average middle class is able to spend on such pursuits. How's the market for used boats these days? How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?


At least in the Farr 30 and Melges 24 fleets and presumably in the A-Cat and 5O5, the 1%ers are in short supply. The majority of these boats are no pro, cheap accomodation, pizza for dinner teams, owned by guys with jobs like engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner, whatever, and they have to count their sailing events or they won't be able to make a house payment.


"engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner" is your idea of "average-Joe"? Hilarious. :lol:

#42 dowspread

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:29 PM

I actually agree with your larger point, I just think that the design and build arms race is best suited to basically a pro-level rule(s) that that should fully encourage no hold barred designs, no expense spared construction and make no attempt to keep last years pos competitvie. You CAN NOT design and build a cometitive one off for any reasonable amount of cash anywhere in the world. Even built in China, the 1st guy who builds a 30 foot version f a Carkeek 40 is going to be into that boats for well over $300k . That is not amatuer dough and its not even doctor or lawyer dough if was built to a rule ithat encourages progression of design. And if you want the sport to benefit from the development that comes with that, and it is clear that you do, and so do I.



#43 puddin

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:35 PM

IMHO, Ajax did the trick and stuck the landing on page one. Well said.

#44 dowspread

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:38 PM


Oh, and one more thing on handicap racing: If you don't know how your scored when you cross the finish line IT IS NOT A SPORT, ITS FUCKING STUPID.


Total horse shit! Is handicap golf not a sport or horse racing? Handicap sailboat racing bring way more people into the sport that then may go on and do One Design. Both have thier place to sling shit at either one is being STUPID.



Read what I said asshole. In golf, unless you are TOTALLY INCAPABLE OF 3RD GRAD MATHMATICS, you not only know how you did at the end of 18, you know where you stand from the 1st hole to the last..

Its one of the reasons I am tolerant of the PHRF system for club level racing, at least if I am the scratch boat I can hit the stopwatch at the finish and tip a cocktail while I time the finish of the next boat(s). With any time on time system or some of these horsehit blackbox rules its sometimes hours after the finish before the palces are determined. I will not participate in that crap.

#45 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:40 PM

In the old days:
Boats were quite expensive. We paid more for our boat than our house when I was a kid.
They held their value or even appreciated.
Maintenance/Campaigning/Berthing costs were relatively low.

Now:
Boats are as cheap as they have EVER been on the used market.
They hold their value...ah...not so well.
Campaigning a racing boat is VASTLY more expensive for any good size boat and slip fees in many areas can be very expensive.

Low purchase and high ongoing costs is not a good thing.

#46 davidprobable

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:52 PM

I actually agree with your larger point, I just think that the design and build arms race is best suited to basically a pro-level rule(s) that that should fully encourage no hold barred designs, no expense spared construction and make no attempt to keep last years pos competitvie. You CAN NOT design and build a cometitive one off for any reasonable amount of cash anywhere in the world. Even built in China, the 1st guy who builds a 30 foot version f a Carkeek 40 is going to be into that boats for well over $300k . That is not amatuer dough and its not even doctor or lawyer dough if was built to a rule ithat encourages progression of design. And if you want the sport to benefit from the development that comes with that, and it is clear that you do, and so do I.



we built admirals cup boats by using syndicates.......no one was flush.......it was a team where everyone was part of it.........now it is one guy with a one design fettish.......crap.

#47 davidprobable

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:55 PM



Oh, and one more thing on handicap racing: If you don't know how your scored when you cross the finish line IT IS NOT A SPORT, ITS FUCKING STUPID.


Total horse shit! Is handicap golf not a sport or horse racing? Handicap sailboat racing bring way more people into the sport that then may go on and do One Design. Both have thier place to sling shit at either one is being STUPID.



Read what I said asshole. In golf, unless you are TOTALLY INCAPABLE OF 3RD GRAD MATHMATICS, you not only know how you did at the end of 18, you know where you stand from the 1st hole to the last..

Its one of the reasons I am tolerant of the PHRF system for club level racing, at least if I am the scratch boat I can hit the stopwatch at the finish and tip a cocktail while I time the finish of the next boat(s). With any time on time system or some of these horsehit blackbox rules its sometimes hours after the finish before the palces are determined. I will not participate in that crap.


Good, you are not needed......we take our own time on long distance races because the guy by the finish is often asleep. If that type of acknowledgment is what makes you race, quit racing and buy a big mirror and stare at it..........lots cheaper you sad sack narcissist. And as for golf, the hdcp system has changed so no one knows where the hell they are at......but no one except the sicko narcissists care as golf is a game between yourself and yourself.......not droolers like you.

#48 davidprobable

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 08:04 PM



There will always be a 1% with enough excess money to spend on obscenely expensive hobbies like sailboat racing at the highest level of competition.

A far better gauge of overall economic health is what the average middle class is able to spend on such pursuits. How's the market for used boats these days? How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?


At least in the Farr 30 and Melges 24 fleets and presumably in the A-Cat and 5O5, the 1%ers are in short supply. The majority of these boats are no pro, cheap accomodation, pizza for dinner teams, owned by guys with jobs like engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner, whatever, and they have to count their sailing events or they won't be able to make a house payment.


"engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner" is your idea of "average-Joe"? Hilarious. :lol:


Clean is correct.......these people are suffering in this world.......you of course are an " Occupy " type living in fantasy land and government largesse......you have no clue what makes America work......you can't get ahead waiting at the mailbox for your government check........get out of your mother's basement sad sack..........

#49 hermetic

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 08:28 PM

Why does this thread remind me of the saying: Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer ?

#50 AlienBowman

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 08:42 PM

Mr. Clean writes: " Consider: The International 5O5 – not a cheap dinghy by any stretch of the imagination – just finished their record-breaking 188-boat Worlds in politically and economically charged France. . . . "

"Politically and economically charged France?" The title sponsor of the regatta was SAP, a worldwide software company with headquarters in Germany. About a third or so of the boats entered were French, with most of the rest European entries. I don't know where Mr. Clean gets his economics and political news about France. News from recent WSJ and FT: unemployment in the Eurozone was 11.2% (with the youth rate higher); France had zero economic growth in 1Q; and the French government introduced new taxes. Maybe he meant negatively charged France.

I agree with most of the other comments - most of the high-profile sailing is high end, maybe not all 1%'ers but probably top 10%.

#51 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:02 PM



There will always be a 1% with enough excess money to spend on obscenely expensive hobbies like sailboat racing at the highest level of competition.

A far better gauge of overall economic health is what the average middle class is able to spend on such pursuits. How's the market for used boats these days? How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?


At least in the Farr 30 and Melges 24 fleets and presumably in the A-Cat and 5O5, the 1%ers are in short supply. The majority of these boats are no pro, cheap accomodation, pizza for dinner teams, owned by guys with jobs like engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner, whatever, and they have to count their sailing events or they won't be able to make a house payment.


"engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner" is your idea of "average-Joe"? Hilarious. :lol:



I don't know where you got "average-Joe" from, Proa, and your mischaracterization doesn't help anyone's discussion.

I'm talking about typically younger guys, under 40, that earn between 75 and 100k. That may be pretty flush if you live in Panama or India, but would never be confused with 'rich' anywhere in the developed world.

Thanks for the responses BTW, and consider the reason that I am so interested in this subject is that the big numbers are sticking in classes for the relatively poor as well as for the relatively wealthy.

#52 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:08 PM

Mr. Clean writes: " Consider: The International 5O5 – not a cheap dinghy by any stretch of the imagination – just finished their record-breaking 188-boat Worlds in politically and economically charged France. . . . "

"Politically and economically charged France?" The title sponsor of the regatta was SAP, a worldwide software company with headquarters in Germany. About a third or so of the boats entered were French, with most of the rest European entries. I don't know where Mr. Clean gets his economics and political news about France. News from recent WSJ and FT: unemployment in the Eurozone was 11.2% (with the youth rate higher); France had zero economic growth in 1Q; and the French government introduced new taxes. Maybe he meant negatively charged France.

I agree with most of the other comments - most of the high-profile sailing is high end, maybe not all 1%'ers but probably top 10%.


'politically and economically charged' meaning very wacky right now, and full of uncertainty. Didn't mean "positively charged" but my bad on the lack of clear terms.

SAP is a sponsor but only because the head of the company sails 5-Ohs. As far as I can tell, it's not really a commercial deal. And i get my economic news from reading French news, in French.

#53 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:02 PM

I do that too. Reading French in English doesn't make much sense :rolleyes:


As far as I can tell, it's not really a commercial deal. And i get my economic news from reading French news, in French.



#54 ProaSailor

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:48 AM




There will always be a 1% with enough excess money to spend on obscenely expensive hobbies like sailboat racing at the highest level of competition.

A far better gauge of overall economic health is what the average middle class is able to spend on such pursuits. How's the market for used boats these days? How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?


At least in the Farr 30 and Melges 24 fleets and presumably in the A-Cat and 5O5, the 1%ers are in short supply. The majority of these boats are no pro, cheap accomodation, pizza for dinner teams, owned by guys with jobs like engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner, whatever, and they have to count their sailing events or they won't be able to make a house payment.


"engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner" is your idea of "average-Joe"? Hilarious. :lol:


Clean is correct.......these people are suffering in this world.......you of course are an " Occupy " type living in fantasy land and government largesse......you have no clue what makes America work......you can't get ahead waiting at the mailbox for your government check........get out of your mother's basement sad sack..........


Mean, ugly and extremely stupid.

#55 davidprobable

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:03 AM

So in 6 years and 3 months you have achieved a sail on a proa........perhaps you should move to the south pacific and occupy that.

#56 ProaSailor

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:04 AM




There will always be a 1% with enough excess money to spend on obscenely expensive hobbies like sailboat racing at the highest level of competition.

A far better gauge of overall economic health is what the average middle class is able to spend on such pursuits. How's the market for used boats these days? How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?


At least in the Farr 30 and Melges 24 fleets and presumably in the A-Cat and 5O5, the 1%ers are in short supply. The majority of these boats are no pro, cheap accomodation, pizza for dinner teams, owned by guys with jobs like engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner, whatever, and they have to count their sailing events or they won't be able to make a house payment.


"engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner" is your idea of "average-Joe"? Hilarious. :lol:



I don't know where you got "average-Joe" from, Proa, and your mischaracterization doesn't help anyone's discussion.

I'm talking about typically younger guys, under 40, that earn between 75 and 100k. That may be pretty flush if you live in Panama or India, but would never be confused with 'rich' anywhere in the developed world.


I got it from zzrider who you quoted in your reply: "How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?"

FYI, $75K to $100K is far above the median per capita income in the United States. It was only ~$40K in 2010. Per Capita Personal Income by State

I know too many people who were making $75K to $100K five years ago and who now can't manage $1K/week. The professions you mentioned may be average-Joes at some (or most) yacht clubs but they are hardly blue collar or typical of the population at large.

#57 6924

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:29 AM

Clean brings up an interesting question (if only by accident)

Is the health of a sport measured by participation in the "worlds" or "NAs"
or
by participation in beer cans or local OD ?


Perhaps Clean's measure of health is inappropriate. A better measure would be participation in local, low budget, low stress sailing.

My guess is that the real duffer events ( exhibit a: Marina Del Rey cruising class regattas ) are doing fine. Also, the dirt cheap fleets ( Lido 14, Lightning, Santana 20s, V15s ) also seem to be doing just fine in their local venues.

#58 Elegua

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 02:43 AM

Being cash rich in a poor economy is a great thing. Think of the deals / discounts you can get on almost everything.

#59 saltyokie

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 02:53 AM

Clean brings up an interesting question (if only by accident)

Is the health of a sport measured by participation in the "worlds" or "NAs"
or
by participation in beer cans or local OD ?


Perhaps Clean's measure of health is inappropriate. A better measure would be participation in local, low budget, low stress sailing.

My guess is that the real duffer events ( exhibit a: Marina Del Rey cruising class regattas ) are doing fine. Also, the dirt cheap fleets ( Lido 14, Lightning, Santana 20s, V15s ) also seem to be doing just fine in their local venues.

A little history. The old CCA rule had boats like Cal36 & 40, Erickson 32 and 35 etc. competitive. Fleets were large. I remember an Overton race - in an Ericson 32 we were OR D . Fleets A thru D averaged 20 boats. We raced 6 overnite races in the Overton - some in the winter. We raced in heavy air - I went around Santa Barbara Island in an Ericson 35 in hurricane force winds. The off watch slept in bunks below. These boats were real racer - cruisers - you could put the cushions back on and take the family to Catalina. Along came the IOR and fleet size dropped to dozen or so. These were one purpose race boats. Harder to justify the expense if only for one member of the family. Ocean racing became the high budget sport it is today.

#60 Anthonyvop

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 04:09 AM

Interesting theories here.

I want to point out one other observation. I recently attended a major Off-Shore Powerboat race and only 12 boats bothered to show up. Similar demographic and suffering severely.

In Europe were Sports car racing is king the European Le Mans Series has cancelled the remainder of their season and the Gt-1 series is in bad shape. So much so that the promotor has announced he is out after this season

So maybe it is just sailing that is doing well in spite of the economy,

#61 Kalimotxo

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:38 AM

The economy is not quite as bad as "some" media make it to be. Positive growth and jobs... small maybe, but positive.

I can tell you our business is going gangbusters and has been all along. We don't necessarily serve the 1% nor do most of the one designs mentioned. The middle class is doing just fine I'd bet. People have money and are spending. Most of our suppliers are experiencing very good growth with lead times getting longer and struggles to get enough raw material and labor. All good signs.


Same here. Struggling with labour. We hope to get some good guys out of spain though.

#62 Albatros

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:46 AM

And i get my economic news from reading French news, in French.

aucune surprise donc que tu te trompes regulièrement :P

although there is effectively a big problem and a lot of uncertainty, seems like the big industries are doing relatively better than supposed, and also, in times of doom & gloom people hang on to the few things that present most value to them, no ? in a better economy people would have more choices, now they limit themselves, so what you have there are the real die hards who in better times would spread their interests over more hobbies.

#63 Lars Schrøder D13

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 07:09 AM

Because getting a decent crew is almost impossible. Crew wants to go sailing without all the hassle of owning a boat or paying and or having responsibility. Owner has to call everybody to make sure they show up or find out whom else to race with. Large crew sucks...And the fantasillions that can be used on new sails every year are hard to justify..

That’s why dinghies and small boats still are popular.

(And Europe is still alive - we Europeans are way more worried about how the Americans keep piling up debt but blame everybody else for their troubles and laziness....(this autumn its Europe, some years ago it was China, earlier Japan and in the future probably Grenada.....).

Have fun

Lars (Contender, 49er, A-cat and a lot of different keelboats)

#64 Paps

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:44 AM


.
your insight is rather underwhelming

the only 'war' is a class one where the rich are getting richer

wait till China turns the screws a bit



I saw this type of verbiage from the " Occupy " types. Rich is not a class. It is a net worth status tied to liquidity. You mistake bling for wealth. As for China, it has no screws to turn. You may have forgotten that all US debt, to China or otherwise, is in US dollars. In other words, in reality, the USA has no debt. It could be gone in the stroke of a pen. I know, I know, there are huge implications therein, but continuing debt is not one of them. The US is big enough to have its own internal economy and is now finding sufficient sources of carbon based fuels internally or from Canada to write off the middle east except for the current future which is tied to easy profit. But it is not fatal to the USA. Going back to your comic book view of "rich", it is all relative. Our so called poor look pretty well off to me compared to the third world. The older demographic of sailing just stop spending and are not interested in big dinghies with no interior comforts. Our clubs focus on the kids and all racing is now focused on chasing motorboat speeds in dinghies or big dinghies. My demographic says " ho hum ". Please get out from under your apartment steps cringing from the Chinese and potential loss of your government cheque, and make something of yourself and buy and race an IOR relic which can be acquired on the cheap, thus letting you remain ensconced as a card carrying " Occupier ". Cheers.


Jeez, where to start?

Wiping out your debt with a magical pen, great idea Shirlock, obviously went to the G W Bush academy of economics. What could possibly go wrong? Probably bring down the world economy that you couldnt quite achieve with your toxic mortgages.

If your big enough to have your "own" economy why the fuck did you saddle the rest of us with "globalisation"? Or was that the plan, rape and pillage then default on your debt??

Yes the good people of Dakota and elsewhere are over the moon about your new energy supplies, who else can set fire to the water coming out of their faucets? Fracking is going gangbusters, just dont live anywhere near it or share the same artesian water.

I'm sure your "so called" poor will be reassured to know they are better of than their counterparts in the third world. I guess that what comes with being poor or homeless in the wealthiest nation in the world. They're in clover. What a condescending arse you are!

Interesting how anyone who disagrees with your view is branded an "occupier" who is on benefits and living in their moms basement!

Judgmental much??

Your arrogance, disrespect and immediate retreat into hatred and villification indicate all that is wrong with the human condition.

Cheers

#65 crashdog

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:45 AM

Actually, the GWBush school of economics was a bully. Bringing down Lehman on a personal vendetta caused inordinate amount of instability in the market which then tied up the money market. Nevertheless, what the dude said was utter rubbish, so good on you for calling him out.

Regarding the topic at hand, I believe, contrary to just about everyone so far, that sailing is seriously suffering at the high end. Consider that the TP52 (and maybe the GP42) circuits are the equivalent to the old Admirals Cup / SORC days. That's all gone now. And where are the Maxis? With the end of Volvo as a design race that's gone too.,
What has emerged from the collapse of true grand prix sailing is a solid one-design circuit. The usual suspects who prowled the big boat circuit now sail in the classes which have been mentioned - note that I am not talking about the helm / tactics guys, but the pit and bow dudes, the trimmers and BNs. So those classes become more active and more competitive. e.g. - there was a nice resurgence in the Star class when the Admirals Cup fizzed away. There were great reunions in Miami instead.

As for myself, my bride and I regularly take out our old ILC dog for daysails and overnight cruises. Yes the accomodation is spartan, but going upwind at 7 - 8 knots to grab a burger and beer at a dockside 20 miles away is actually a whole lot more fun than spending a day in some funky J30 or J105 getting nowhere. Actually, there is a reason I said that. You can enjoy a good boat, and not give a ff about how it rates.

#66 bgytr

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:56 AM

...........
(And Europe is still alive - we Europeans are way more worried about how the Americans keep piling up debt but blame everybody else for their troubles and laziness....(this autumn its Europe, some years ago it was China, earlier Japan and in the future probably Grenada.....).

Have fun

Lars (Contender, 49er, A-cat and a lot of different keelboats)



This must be a joke. Lazy Americans- how bout European six week summer vacations? Two months of government mandated "paternity leave?" Even whisper something like that to any US company and you will get a short trip to the company door and a kick in the butt as you exit. Germans at the bottom of the industrial world at 28 average hours worked per week? Italians' three hour lunches?
Debt in Europe: Greece, Spain. etc.

Americans are routinely at the top of the world in worker productivity.

US debt ain't the fault of the American worker.

#67 coyotepup

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:00 AM

Pretty simple really. All of the boats you mention Clean are One Design, and all are, relatively speaking, moderately priced or even downright cheap compared to the cost of building the latest "rule beater" to compete in the grand prix handicap classes.

That the best and most committed sailors are being drawn to one design racing is no mystery:

Every major handicap rule has been, currently is, and will always be an utter failure. Who in the fuck wants to race under any of these shitty rules, it is neither fun nor fair. Face it; handicap racing just doesn't work for amateur sailing. PHRF - if administered by mechanical bureaucrats could work quit well for club racing and is it is capable of providing a reasonable experience for sailors competing in a wide variety of boat type. But it isn't run in a fair minded way anywhere ever. It is administered by a bunch of self serving jackasses interested in protecting their own ratings and punishing any newer boat that might threaten their built in rating advantage. If the "rating disadvantaged" boat owner gets involved in the committees and the politics and finally corrects what may have begun as an actual rating injustice - HE MORPHS INTO THE SELF SERVING AHOLE he once complained about and becomes the next generation of the PHRF Gestapo. Some grand prix someday may work, but by the very nature, measurement rule requires the latest and greatest to be competitive - AND THAT IS AS IT SHOULD BE - sailing's obsession with trying to keep old boats competitive is perhaps the single biggest fuck up hold back the sport. So if you have the cash and want to race handicap at the grand prix level accept that your boat will be obsolete after one season, that's the game. Do NASCAR or F1 fans fill the stands to watch a car designed with the latest 2012 technology BUT SLOWED DOWN BY HANDICAP REQUIREMENT to enable a more "fair" competition against a car from 5 years ago? Hell no. And at the amateur level, car racing is no different - EVEYONE runs the latest technology, and if you happen to like the old stuff there are vintage car races for those guys. .

Oh, and one more thing on handicap racing: If you don't know how your scored when you cross the finish line IT IS NOT A SPORT, ITS FUCKING STUPID.

All of the boats that you mention as thriving are relatively modern and relatively fun to sail. There are better newer models. But one design racing requires a concentration of like boats, the choice of boat is driven somewhat by budget. BUT THE PRIMARY CHOICE IS BASED ON THE AVAILABLITY OF ACTIVE RACING IN THE CLASS. Success breeds success in one design racing. As more sailors flee the BS of the handicap system to pursue participation in an actual sport that is fun, the strong classes will get stronger and some new ones, hopefully, will flourish in time.

What you are witnessing Clean is CONSENTRATION. I wish the sport of sailing were growing, but it isn't. As the administration of the sport under handicap systems has casued racing to become truly horrible, those of us who love the sailing experience and the sport of sailboat racing are seeking out the better, fairer racing experiences provided by one design. This is a perfectly rational transition. You already made point of the 18 Benetau 36.7's, 11 Benetau 40.7's, and the 25 T10's that participated in the 2012 Chi-Mac. I think all three of those boats are hateful pieces of shit (bring it on), but it is all the same theme on the same story. Sailors are transitioning to these boats because they provide a fair method of participating in the sport at a relatively predictable price point.



You wish the sport of sailing were growing, but you want to shoehorn everyone into a few one-design classes instead of letting people buy and race a boat that suits them.

You wish all racing were one-design, but you hate the popular one-design boats.

What the hell do you want??

#68 jt9686

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:40 AM




There will always be a 1% with enough excess money to spend on obscenely expensive hobbies like sailboat racing at the highest level of competition.

A far better gauge of overall economic health is what the average middle class is able to spend on such pursuits. How's the market for used boats these days? How's the participation rate in average-Joe beer can racing and regattas?


At least in the Farr 30 and Melges 24 fleets and presumably in the A-Cat and 5O5, the 1%ers are in short supply. The majority of these boats are no pro, cheap accomodation, pizza for dinner teams, owned by guys with jobs like engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner, whatever, and they have to count their sailing events or they won't be able to make a house payment.


"engineer, lawyer, restaurant owner" is your idea of "average-Joe"? Hilarious. :lol:



I don't know where you got "average-Joe" from, Proa, and your mischaracterization doesn't help anyone's discussion.

I'm talking about typically younger guys, under 40, that earn between 75 and 100k. That may be pretty flush if you live in Panama or India, but would never be confused with 'rich' anywhere in the developed world.

Thanks for the responses BTW, and consider the reason that I am so interested in this subject is that the big numbers are sticking in classes for the relatively poor as well as for the relatively wealthy.


At least in my experience, there are two groups of individuals (yes, lawyers, engineers and restaurant owners) that can afford both in time and money to race their own boats regularly and are moving into the sport. First, it is the older crowd (50+) who either had kids who took out student loans for college or have kids who have graduated. Second, it is the double income no kids (DINK) crowd who have time and enough disposable income to support a program.

The other thing at play is the fact that people are trashing the traditional owner/crew model. Increasingly the <40 crowd are clubbing together with one or two owners. If done correctly, in particular if the expectations of and for the program are discussed extensively, agreed and recorded in advance, it creates vibrant and well supported teams. It solves the crew problem by creating a built in regular crew. It solves the cost problem by sharing the crippling cost of sails, lifts, replacing broken shit etc. It also broadens the appeal of the program: one owner will call 5-10 buddies to get them out on the boat, two owners will call 8-13 buddies, so on and so forth. When you get two or three people who own the boat and know it very well, it is much easier to bring out a presently useless beginner to get them involved in the sport.

The argument about who is an "average joe" is a joke when it comes to sailboat racing. The average joe is different in sailing. The average joe is different in every (sailboat) class. The question is why we are seeing growth in so many classes when the "average joe" outside sailboat racing is feeling their pocket books shrinking. My guesses are above, for what they're worth.

#69 NautiGirl

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:41 AM

Clean brings up an interesting question (if only by accident)

Is the health of a sport measured by participation in the "worlds" or "NAs"
or
by participation in beer cans or local OD ?


Perhaps Clean's measure of health is inappropriate. A better measure would be participation in local, low budget, low stress sailing.

My guess is that the real duffer events ( exhibit a: Marina Del Rey cruising class regattas ) are doing fine. Also, the dirt cheap fleets ( Lido 14, Lightning, Santana 20s, V15s ) also seem to be doing just fine in their local venues.


I was thinking the same thing.

I think it's like comparing apples and oranges. Both fruits, but entirely different breeds.

Our club continues to grow, and our Wednesday night races have great turnouts. There was good interest in a club mini-offshore that we had planned for last weekend (cancelled due to lack of wind) and members are eager to have it rescheduled.

The average sailor on this forum has neither the time or money to campaign their boats like mentioned in the original post, but is quite happy to use a week or two vacation to do a race week, or an offshore race. The vast majority of folks I know prefer to own and race racer-cruiser type boats, and turn those events into a nice holiday. We had a fantastic Route Halifax St. Pierre ocean race, and an equally enjoyable time spending the following week comfortably cruising Newfoundland (stunning!) and Cape Breton for a week following it and meeting up with at least 2 or 3 other competitors at every stop (so clearly we weren't the only ones with that idea). We are considering the Marion-Bermuda race for next year, but realistically that means for us taking a month off work, so not sure if that will happen. Time, not money, will be the deciding factor.

For most people I know, racing is less about winning, and more about the experience. Again, the St. Pierre race was incredible because it's an awesome event with great hospitality. Winning this year was nice, but even if we hadn't, we'd still be chomping at the bit to return in 2014. We won't do one area race week this year, despite it being the largest regatta of the year, because frankly, we don't enjoy the experience and we are not the only ones who feel that way.

Finding crew is another large part of the equation. We don't tend to do 2 day regattas because most of our crew have spouses and children, and it's asking a lot of them to spend the whole weekend racing. I had a great chat with the owner of a Swan 48 from the US last week, and the logistics of arranging crew and delivery teams is a full time job. Few people would turn down a chance to race or deliver a boat like that, so in a sense it's far easier for him than for a boat like ours.

Anyhow, I don't think everyone is looking for the Farr 40/latest hot One Design boat experience, nor do I think you can judge the overall "health" of the sport based on the relatively small segement of participants who are.

#70 btbotfa

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:50 AM


...........
(And Europe is still alive - we Europeans are way more worried about how the Americans keep piling up debt but blame everybody else for their troubles and laziness....(this autumn its Europe, some years ago it was China, earlier Japan and in the future probably Grenada.....).

Have fun

Lars (Contender, 49er, A-cat and a lot of different keelboats)



This must be a joke. Lazy Americans- how bout European six week summer vacations? Two months of government mandated "paternity leave?" Even whisper something like that to any US company and you will get a short trip to the company door and a kick in the butt as you exit. Germans at the bottom of the industrial world at 28 average hours worked per week? Italians' three hour lunches?
Debt in Europe: Greece, Spain. etc.

Americans are routinely at the top of the world in worker productivity.

US debt ain't the fault of the American worker.


+1000 I can't get product I need out of Italy until October- in June I was being told that the door was closed-nothing else would be made until after they came back from their break --June, July August September-1/3 of a year they are essentially out of business-good fucking luck being viable and competitive in a world economy that runs 24/7 -found an alternative, made in North Carolina. Maybe not as pretty but two week lead time.

#71 Lars Schrøder D13

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:03 PM

US debt ain't the fault of the American worker.


nope, but it will be their problem

#72 Glitter In The Eye

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:53 PM



.
your insight is rather underwhelming

the only 'war' is a class one where the rich are getting richer

wait till China turns the screws a bit



I saw this type of verbiage from the " Occupy " types. Rich is not a class. It is a net worth status tied to liquidity. You mistake bling for wealth. As for China, it has no screws to turn. You may have forgotten that all US debt, to China or otherwise, is in US dollars. In other words, in reality, the USA has no debt. It could be gone in the stroke of a pen. I know, I know, there are huge implications therein, but continuing debt is not one of them. The US is big enough to have its own internal economy and is now finding sufficient sources of carbon based fuels internally or from Canada to write off the middle east except for the current future which is tied to easy profit. But it is not fatal to the USA. Going back to your comic book view of "rich", it is all relative. Our so called poor look pretty well off to me compared to the third world. The older demographic of sailing just stop spending and are not interested in big dinghies with no interior comforts. Our clubs focus on the kids and all racing is now focused on chasing motorboat speeds in dinghies or big dinghies. My demographic says " ho hum ". Please get out from under your apartment steps cringing from the Chinese and potential loss of your government cheque, and make something of yourself and buy and race an IOR relic which can be acquired on the cheap, thus letting you remain ensconced as a card carrying " Occupier ". Cheers.


Jeez, where to start?

Wiping out your debt with a magical pen, great idea Shirlock, obviously went to the G W Bush academy of economics. What could possibly go wrong? Probably bring down the world economy that you couldnt quite achieve with your toxic mortgages.

If your big enough to have your "own" economy why the fuck did you saddle the rest of us with "globalisation"? Or was that the plan, rape and pillage then default on your debt??

Yes the good people of Dakota and elsewhere are over the moon about your new energy supplies, who else can set fire to the water coming out of their faucets? Fracking is going gangbusters, just dont live anywhere near it or share the same artesian water.

I'm sure your "so called" poor will be reassured to know they are better of than their counterparts in the third world. I guess that what comes with being poor or homeless in the wealthiest nation in the world. They're in clover. What a condescending arse you are!

Interesting how anyone who disagrees with your view is branded an "occupier" who is on benefits and living in their moms basement!

Judgmental much??

Your arrogance, disrespect and immediate retreat into hatred and villification indicate all that is wrong with the human condition.

Cheers


Good job...David P has a odd look on economics and the world.

As for the lazy american and lazy euros discussion, we all have our lazy tales of those people not getting things done and cant get what we order out of a country. I married a euro many years ago, traveled to her country every year we were married for 10 years and I can say that most of her family did work hard, but i would agree that the euros have a odd idea on long vacations, when their work day starts and ends. I have not taken off more than 5 days of work in a row in the last 6 years out of fear my business will fail.

I still beleive there are more wealthy people today than last year and so on, this is why the Grand Prix Classes and super yachts are still being built at record pace. Us normals who makes less than 1 million per year are the ones less involved.

100K per year in America gets you a living but not much else.

#73 Kack

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:00 PM

As a 31 year old who's been racing for 12 years I see it a little bit differently.

Everything costs more now than ever. I'm a nuke engineer, make around 100k a year, own a modest house with a yard and a John Deere, have a gas getter car and a pickup truck, cable tv, cell phone, electricity, no wife, no kids.

Food costs are up, gas is high and boat purchasing priorities are low. For the guys my age working a normal job its all about making it to the next step and a go fast boat has a low return on investment. Fun yes good choice, not really.

#74 Albatros

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:04 PM

... but i would agree that the euros have a odd idea on long vacations when their work day starts and ends. I have not taken off more than 5 days of work in a row in the last 6 years out of fear my business will fail.

...

and that I find odd compared against the 35 days a year I could take (but hardly ever did)

one man's oddity is another man's normality

#75 Bill Roue

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:10 PM

(And Europe is still alive - we Europeans are way more worried about how the Americans keep piling up debt but blame everybody else for their troubles and laziness....(this autumn its Europe, some years ago it was China, earlier Japan and in the future probably Grenada.....).

Have fun

Lars (Contender, 49er, A-cat and a lot of different keelboats)


Are you fucking out of your mind?

Europe is one sneeze away from being a financial skid mark in history.

#76 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:14 PM

All keep in mind that Joe Average finding a $10K Pearson 30 or Tartan 27 and racing with a few dacron sails and a spinnaker may be a lot of fun and it may be what used to be the heart of sailboat racing, but is NOT what keeps SA and Clean going. That kind of scene does not have the money for paid crew or "new media" :rolleyes:

I think the health, or lack thereof, of this kind of thing is not a real SA worry.

#77 Lars Schrøder D13

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:20 PM



(And Europe is still alive - we Europeans are way more worried about how the Americans keep piling up debt but blame everybody else for their troubles and laziness....(this autumn its Europe, some years ago it was China, earlier Japan and in the future probably Grenada.....).

Have fun

Lars (Contender, 49er, A-cat and a lot of different keelboats)


Are you fucking out of your mind?

Europe is one sneeze away from being a financial skid mark in history.


nope, usa is the troublemaker - the foundation for the creditcrunch was create back with good oll deregulation reagan and afterwards all the stupidity out of the greenspanera. Now, the americans cant borrow money as easely and they start whining....

The Europeans try to solve their debt-problems, while the americans closes their eyes and borrow more money. Go figure who has a problem?

Have fun

Lars

#78 coyotepup

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:31 PM



(And Europe is still alive - we Europeans are way more worried about how the Americans keep piling up debt but blame everybody else for their troubles and laziness....(this autumn its Europe, some years ago it was China, earlier Japan and in the future probably Grenada.....).

Have fun

Lars (Contender, 49er, A-cat and a lot of different keelboats)


Are you fucking out of your mind?

Europe is one sneeze away from being a financial skid mark in history.


nope, usa is the troublemaker - the foundation for the creditcrunch was create back with good oll deregulation reagan and afterwards all the stupidity out of the greenspanera. Now, the americans cant borrow money as easely and they start whining....

The Europeans try to solve their debt-problems, while the americans closes their eyes and borrow more money. Go figure who has a problem?

Have fun

Lars


If by "try to solve" their debt-problems, you mean the irresponsible debt-ridden countries like Greece and Spain demanding no-strings-attached money from the responsible, wealthier ones like Germany, then yes, they're doing everything humanly possible.

Meanwhile, there are riots in the streets if you try to take away their "rights" like a 35-hour work week or make any cuts to the totally unsustainable social net. Look at France a few years ago. "I don't have a job now, but don't you dare pass any laws that will make it easier to hire people." I guess the job fairy was gonna sprinkle magic job dust and give them one - one that they couldn't be fired from thanks to France's labor laws.

I don't have any pretensions that the US is any healthier. You got the Democrats screaming about Republican deficits and then as soon as you put them in power, watch the deficit rocket to the moon as we try and borrow our way out of a crisis. And God help you if you make the necessary cuts to bring it down. But don't act like the US is the source of your problems in Europe. You shat in your own bed.

#79 Glitter In The Eye

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:46 PM

I can borrow cash at a better rate than many Euro countries can. I just dont understand David Probables rants and Lars's analogy of their own issues and what they are worried about. It must be me I dont get it.

#80 davidprobable

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 03:07 PM



.
your insight is rather underwhelming

the only 'war' is a class one where the rich are getting richer

wait till China turns the screws a bit



I saw this type of verbiage from the " Occupy " types. Rich is not a class. It is a net worth status tied to liquidity. You mistake bling for wealth. As for China, it has no screws to turn. You may have forgotten that all US debt, to China or otherwise, is in US dollars. In other words, in reality, the USA has no debt. It could be gone in the stroke of a pen. I know, I know, there are huge implications therein, but continuing debt is not one of them. The US is big enough to have its own internal economy and is now finding sufficient sources of carbon based fuels internally or from Canada to write off the middle east except for the current future which is tied to easy profit. But it is not fatal to the USA. Going back to your comic book view of "rich", it is all relative. Our so called poor look pretty well off to me compared to the third world. The older demographic of sailing just stop spending and are not interested in big dinghies with no interior comforts. Our clubs focus on the kids and all racing is now focused on chasing motorboat speeds in dinghies or big dinghies. My demographic says " ho hum ". Please get out from under your apartment steps cringing from the Chinese and potential loss of your government cheque, and make something of yourself and buy and race an IOR relic which can be acquired on the cheap, thus letting you remain ensconced as a card carrying " Occupier ". Cheers.


Jeez, where to start?

Wiping out your debt with a magical pen, great idea Shirlock, obviously went to the G W Bush academy of economics. What could possibly go wrong? Probably bring down the world economy that you couldnt quite achieve with your toxic mortgages.

If your big enough to have your "own" economy why the fuck did you saddle the rest of us with "globalisation"? Or was that the plan, rape and pillage then default on your debt??

Yes the good people of Dakota and elsewhere are over the moon about your new energy supplies, who else can set fire to the water coming out of their faucets? Fracking is going gangbusters, just dont live anywhere near it or share the same artesian water.

I'm sure your "so called" poor will be reassured to know they are better of than their counterparts in the third world. I guess that what comes with being poor or homeless in the wealthiest nation in the world. They're in clover. What a condescending arse you are!

Interesting how anyone who disagrees with your view is branded an "occupier" who is on benefits and living in their moms basement!

Judgmental much??

Your arrogance, disrespect and immediate retreat into hatred and villification indicate all that is wrong with the human condition.

Cheers


So this is a true Pap Smear. Smells about right. Can't you Aussies read? I said " I know " above in respect of the obvious failure of such an action. But you missed that being too busy working on your ignorant smear. You are clearly a descendant of the criminals sent from England to Aussieland. I'll bet you are a telemarketer and doing sex calls for your upside down people. I note you are winning nothing at the Olympics. Sufficiently villified yet?

#81 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:29 PM

FYI, $75K to $100K is far above the median per capita income in the United States. It was only ~$40K in 2010. Per Capita Personal Income by State

I know too many people who were making $75K to $100K five years ago and who now can't manage $1K/week. The professions you mentioned may be average-Joes at some (or most) yacht clubs but they are hardly blue collar or typical of the population at large.


Fair enough. I do associate with fairly well-educated folks, most of them sailors, and per capita income isn't an accurate measure of that group, because "population at large" includes migrant workers, kids with waiter jobs, unskilled laborers, and other groups that I rarely come into contact with at home. Maybe median per-capita income for college-educated people would be closer to that 75k mark?


I'd love to see the current participation trend in "Average Joe" beer can racing, but as far as I can tell, there's nowhere simple to get that data. I do however think that Worlds are a good measure of what's going on because the records are there for all to see.










#82 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:42 PM

All keep in mind that Joe Average finding a $10K Pearson 30 or Tartan 27 and racing with a few dacron sails and a spinnaker may be a lot of fun and it may be what used to be the heart of sailboat racing, but is NOT what keeps SA and Clean going. That kind of scene does not have the money for paid crew or "new media" :rolleyes:

I think the health, or lack thereof, of this kind of thing is not a real SA worry.





I work quite hard to understand what is happening in the sport that consumes nearly every moment of my life, and I'm quite glad to see objective data that indicates that at least a small part of it is doing quite well. There's plenty of other data that shows that other parts of it are doing well over the past couple of years, too: There's explosive growth in relatively informal adult learn-to-sail programs. There's lots of regional growth in pursuit/government mark races for non-spinnaker or cruising classes. Sailing is the fastest-growing high school sport in America. There's actually lots of growth when you look around, but this is the first time I've seen this kind of participation growth across this many major one-design world championships, so I wrote about it.


Not sure where 'worry' or 'what keeps SA and Clean going' enter into the discussion.

#83 davidprobable

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:04 PM

its really not entertaining when Clean becomes so reasonable and polite.............snore.

#84 ProaSailor

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:24 PM

Fair enough. I do associate with fairly well-educated folks, most of them sailors, and per capita income isn't an accurate measure of that group, because "population at large" includes migrant workers, kids with waiter jobs, unskilled laborers, and other groups that I rarely come into contact with at home. Maybe median per-capita income for college-educated people would be closer to that 75k mark?


Closer but still not quite; here is a page that breaks it down by education and gender: Personal income in the United States

Posted Image

I'm guessing that the crowd you run with are in a bubble of well paid sailing pros who's income has more to do with athleticism, passion for the sport and extensive social connections than level of education. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Just don't kid yourself that "Joe-average" earns $75k-$100k per year, a level of income enjoyed by only 5.29% of the population, according to the page cited above.

#85 Bill Roue

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:48 PM

its really not entertaining when Clean becomes so reasonable and polite.............snore.

It's really not entertaining when your posts don't reek of Upper Canadian establishment intergenerational inbreeding.

Step it the fuck up up Monty!

Carry on...

#86 davidprobable

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:58 PM

oh you are such a roue' bill

#87 hermetic

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 07:44 PM


All keep in mind that Joe Average finding a $10K Pearson 30 or Tartan 27 and racing with a few dacron sails and a spinnaker may be a lot of fun and it may be what used to be the heart of sailboat racing, but is NOT what keeps SA and Clean going. That kind of scene does not have the money for paid crew or "new media" :rolleyes:

I think the health, or lack thereof, of this kind of thing is not a real SA worry.





I work quite hard to understand what is happening in the sport that consumes nearly every moment of my life, and I'm quite glad to see objective data that indicates that at least a small part of it is doing quite well. There's plenty of other data that shows that other parts of it are doing well over the past couple of years, too: There's explosive growth in relatively informal adult learn-to-sail programs. There's lots of regional growth in pursuit/government mark races for non-spinnaker or cruising classes. Sailing is the fastest-growing high school sport in America. There's actually lots of growth when you look around, but this is the first time I've seen this kind of participation growth across this many major one-design world championships, so I wrote about it.


Not sure where 'worry' or 'what keeps SA and Clean going' enter into the discussion.


You spelled lacrosse wrong.

#88 ProaSailor

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:17 PM


Sailing is the fastest-growing high school sport in America.


You spelled lacrosse wrong.


:lol: Love it! What suckers we are for being baited with such absurd drivel. How many high schools have a sailing program? Did it just jump from 0.001% to 0.002% (a 100% increase!)? Lacrosse, rugby, tennis, Swimming and Diving and even bowling also make that claim, all with far more credibility than sailing. So easy to find the facts, yet so hard to find the truth.

#89 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:26 PM

I am glad parts of it are doing well.
Really.

The data you are looking for is pretty hard to find actually. Lots of small clubs that might be lax about posting results anyplace you can find online and may not leave historical data around. I'll even give you credit for caring more about the 6KSB and 4KSB boats than might be obvious from the front page. From a business perspective, I can see why "Bill's Cal 25 hit Jim's Ensign and he lost a 6 pack of Natty Bo in the ensuing carnage" isn't your main worry.

I'll tell you what - I'll do some research and see if I can get numbers on races "not in the circles off Annapolis" and let you know what I find. My worry is there is a whole infrastructure of people that give up a lot of time to run various races and as the numbers fall it just won't seem worth it anymore. Once that happens, it seems very hard to bring back.

Remember - CONCENTRATION. If 50 boats each raced on 20 rivers, that is 1,000 boats. If half quit and the other half all go to ONE river/port and that is where YOU are, it looks like racing is exploding.


All keep in mind that Joe Average finding a $10K Pearson 30 or Tartan 27 and racing with a few dacron sails and a spinnaker may be a lot of fun and it may be what used to be the heart of sailboat racing, but is NOT what keeps SA and Clean going. That kind of scene does not have the money for paid crew or "new media" :rolleyes:

I think the health, or lack thereof, of this kind of thing is not a real SA worry.





I work quite hard to understand what is happening in the sport that consumes nearly every moment of my life, and I'm quite glad to see objective data that indicates that at least a small part of it is doing quite well. There's plenty of other data that shows that other parts of it are doing well over the past couple of years, too: There's explosive growth in relatively informal adult learn-to-sail programs. There's lots of regional growth in pursuit/government mark races for non-spinnaker or cruising classes. Sailing is the fastest-growing high school sport in America. There's actually lots of growth when you look around, but this is the first time I've seen this kind of participation growth across this many major one-design world championships, so I wrote about it.


Not sure where 'worry' or 'what keeps SA and Clean going' enter into the discussion.



#90 GybeSet®

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:32 PM


.
your insight is rather underwhelming

the only 'war' is a class one where the rich are getting richer

wait till China turns the screws a bit



I saw this type of verbiage from the " Occupy " types. Rich is not a class. It is a net worth status tied to liquidity. You mistake bling for wealth. As for China, it has no screws to turn. You may have forgotten that all US debt, to China or otherwise, is in US dollars. In other words, in reality, the USA has no debt. It could be gone in the stroke of a pen. I know, I know, there are huge implications therein, but continuing debt is not one of them. The US is big enough to have its own internal economy and is now finding sufficient sources of carbon based fuels internally or from Canada to write off the middle east except for the current future which is tied to easy profit. But it is not fatal to the USA. Going back to your comic book view of "rich", it is all relative. Our so called poor look pretty well off to me compared to the third world. The older demographic of sailing just stop spending and are not interested in big dinghies with no interior comforts. Our clubs focus on the kids and all racing is now focused on chasing motorboat speeds in dinghies or big dinghies. My demographic says " ho hum ". Please get out from under your apartment steps cringing from the Chinese and potential loss of your government cheque, and make something of yourself and buy and race an IOR relic which can be acquired on the cheap, thus letting you remain ensconced as a card carrying " Occupier ". Cheers.


occupy your cage ??? ? ?




#91 blackjenner

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:55 PM

Well, in the United States it's a pure and simple transfer of wealth from the middle class (who has lost all their guying power -- hence part of the financial crisis) to the people pretty far above the middle class.

#92 Bulbhunter

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:05 PM

A better question for us 99% would be "How's your LOCAL fleet racing nowadays?". The resounding answers in most cases would be either "It sucks" or "It ain't".


Small boat racing events at our club and the JRs program has been at its all time high the past two years. Small boats can be just as much fun if not more so and the cost can be cheap or off the charts depending on how over the top you want to get with gear etc.

Is the economy changing the sport? YES! The people who would have been racing your 30-40ft racer cruisers are now racing Vipers - M20's - U20's Open 5.7's and various Cats etc. The % cost of running those boats are about the same as the old 30-40 footers back in the day when you look at incomes vs running costs etc.

I think the major flaw in this entire thread is that 99% of the posters some how think that 30-40ft racing boats defines the sport. I would argue that the new sport boats and some of the fantastic cats that have hit the market have actually brought a bunch of old timers back to the sport.

#93 Paps

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:38 PM




.
your insight is rather underwhelming

the only 'war' is a class one where the rich are getting richer

wait till China turns the screws a bit



I saw this type of verbiage from the " Occupy " types. Rich is not a class. It is a net worth status tied to liquidity. You mistake bling for wealth. As for China, it has no screws to turn. You may have forgotten that all US debt, to China or otherwise, is in US dollars. In other words, in reality, the USA has no debt. It could be gone in the stroke of a pen. I know, I know, there are huge implications therein, but continuing debt is not one of them. The US is big enough to have its own internal economy and is now finding sufficient sources of carbon based fuels internally or from Canada to write off the middle east except for the current future which is tied to easy profit. But it is not fatal to the USA. Going back to your comic book view of "rich", it is all relative. Our so called poor look pretty well off to me compared to the third world. The older demographic of sailing just stop spending and are not interested in big dinghies with no interior comforts. Our clubs focus on the kids and all racing is now focused on chasing motorboat speeds in dinghies or big dinghies. My demographic says " ho hum ". Please get out from under your apartment steps cringing from the Chinese and potential loss of your government cheque, and make something of yourself and buy and race an IOR relic which can be acquired on the cheap, thus letting you remain ensconced as a card carrying " Occupier ". Cheers.


Jeez, where to start?

Wiping out your debt with a magical pen, great idea Shirlock, obviously went to the G W Bush academy of economics. What could possibly go wrong? Probably bring down the world economy that you couldnt quite achieve with your toxic mortgages.

If your big enough to have your "own" economy why the fuck did you saddle the rest of us with "globalisation"? Or was that the plan, rape and pillage then default on your debt??

Yes the good people of Dakota and elsewhere are over the moon about your new energy supplies, who else can set fire to the water coming out of their faucets? Fracking is going gangbusters, just dont live anywhere near it or share the same artesian water.

I'm sure your "so called" poor will be reassured to know they are better of than their counterparts in the third world. I guess that what comes with being poor or homeless in the wealthiest nation in the world. They're in clover. What a condescending arse you are!

Interesting how anyone who disagrees with your view is branded an "occupier" who is on benefits and living in their moms basement!

Judgmental much??

Your arrogance, disrespect and immediate retreat into hatred and villification indicate all that is wrong with the human condition.

Cheers


So this is a true Pap Smear. Smells about right. Can't you Aussies read? I said " I know " above in respect of the obvious failure of such an action. But you missed that being too busy working on your ignorant smear. You are clearly a descendant of the criminals sent from England to Aussieland. I'll bet you are a telemarketer and doing sex calls for your upside down people. I note you are winning nothing at the Olympics. Sufficiently villified yet?


The defense rests your honour.

#94 Paps

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:48 PM

But just for fun divide our medal tally by 20m then multiply by 250m. Hows your tally look now Sherlock? Your not too good at math are you.

#95 6924

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:29 PM

Clean,

Thanks. for the clarification.

#96 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 12:01 AM

I'm guessing that the crowd you run with are in a bubble of well paid sailing pros who's income has more to do with athleticism, passion for the sport and extensive social connections than level of education. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Just don't kid yourself that "Joe-average" earns $75k-$100k per year, a level of income enjoyed by only 5.29% of the population, according to the page cited above.


Not so much sailing pros, we tend to see each other for a few minutes here and there. Besides, they are mostly pretty poor without their wives or girlfriends income or assets. I spend most of my time with amateur or club level sailors, along with my family, Mer's family and their friends - the majority of whom have postgraduate degrees.

Again - I wouldn't use the term "Joe-Average" because it is a completely irrelevant description of what we're talking about here. The general demographic on the 'average' sailor is far, far wealthier than the median human, so it's a waste of time to talk about Joe whatever. Joe is just your straw man in this discussion.

5% of the population is one in twenty, or around 15 million people. That's a lot of potential boat owners ;)









#97 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 12:05 AM



Sailing is the fastest-growing high school sport in America.


You spelled lacrosse wrong.


:lol: Love it! What suckers we are for being baited with such absurd drivel. How many high schools have a sailing program? Did it just jump from 0.001% to 0.002% (a 100% increase!)? Lacrosse, rugby, tennis, Swimming and Diving and even bowling also make that claim, all with far more credibility than sailing. So easy to find the facts, yet so hard to find the truth.


You do understand that something that was the fastest-growing sport in 2008 might not be the fastest-growing in 2012, right? Your links are for 2006, 2008, 2009, and another that isn't even about high schools. Step up your game bro.

#98 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 12:07 AM

Remember - CONCENTRATION. If 50 boats each raced on 20 rivers, that is 1,000 boats. If half quit and the other half all go to ONE river/port and that is where YOU are, it looks like racing is exploding.


Of course. But I'm lucky in the fact that my job gives me a nice view of what's going on in a hell of a lot of ports...

#99 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 12:10 AM

I think the major flaw in this entire thread is that 99% of the posters some how think that 30-40ft racing boats defines the sport. I would argue that the new sport boats and some of the fantastic cats that have hit the market have actually brought a bunch of old timers back to the sport.


Fair point, and one we have made over and over and over on the front page. But this is about Worlds in major international classes and a trend we have not seen before. Maybe it's just a good year for some classes, but now it's on the radar.

I'd love to see an updated methodology on that "one design health survey" or whatever that we run every year. It was never a very clear set of data, but there's a need for something like that. It would be nice if US Sailing would spend some money on that - you know, something with real use!

#100 ProaSailor

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 01:43 AM




Sailing is the fastest-growing high school sport in America.


You spelled lacrosse wrong.


:lol: Love it! What suckers we are for being baited with such absurd drivel. How many high schools have a sailing program? Did it just jump from 0.001% to 0.002% (a 100% increase!)? Lacrosse, rugby, tennis, Swimming and Diving and even bowling also make that claim, all with far more credibility than sailing. So easy to find the facts, yet so hard to find the truth.


You do understand that something that was the fastest-growing sport in 2008 might not be the fastest-growing in 2012, right? Your links are for 2006, 2008, 2009, and another that isn't even about high schools. Step up your game bro.


You made the claim, what's your basis? Can you back it up with a shred of proof? I didn't introduce "Joe-average" to this thread and wasn't making a straw man argument, just pointing out that your notion of average sailor (who earns $75K to $100K) is actually a very exclusive club.




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