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#1 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:43 PM

Watching the W470 olympic racing and one girl on the wire was bouncing hard onto the hull by rapidly raising up on her toes and slamming her heels into the side. You could literally see the boat shake and come up flatter. I don't know the class well enough to know what's allowed. Certainly saw a lot of guy pumping on the DW's also.

#2 dogwatch

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:50 PM

^

It's an established technique with a name too indelicate for the sensibilities of SA readers.

#3 DaveK

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:39 PM

Some of them looked like they had physical tourette syndrome!

#4 Vernon Green

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:42 PM

The rocking in the Finn class downwind is just insane. It is really just a pumping contest downwind.

#5 Luke Piewalker

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:52 PM

C.1.1 RULES
(a) The following RRS 2009-2012 rules shall apply as amended below:
(1) Add a new RRS 42.3(i)
42.3(i) When the average wind speed is clearly over 8 knots across the
course the race committee may signal in accordance with RRS
Appendix P5 that pumping, rocking and ooching are permitted.
This changes rules RRS 42.2(a), RRS 42.2(B), RRS 42.2©.

#6 dogwatch

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 06:08 PM

pumping, rocking and ooching are permitted.


It's not any of those.

#7 Major Tom

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:51 PM

Watched an edited version of race 8 of the radials and there was clear contact at the last leeward mark between bel and fin right in front of the jury boat, no penalties were immediately done. Is cheating also the norm at this level?

#8 SEMIJim

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:56 PM

^

It's an established technique with a name too indelicate for the sensibilities of SA readers.

That's hard to imagine.

#9 bruno

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:08 PM

shagging, used to be that you could ID the 470 crews, flat out, tippy toe, feet together, hands above the head or close to the body. now i am seeing them bent forward, hands on the wire, really changes the style of sailing. i like kinetics but i am not a fan of anything goes.

#10 cosmicsedso

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 12:05 AM

shagging, used to be that you could ID the 470 crews, flat out, tippy toe, feet together, hands above the head or close to the body. now i am seeing them bent forward, hands on the wire, really changes the style of sailing. i like kinetics but i am not a fan of anything goes.



I tend to agree.
Upwind pumping (especially from the wire) looks so bad but watching the Finns downwind is sensational.
Rule 42 should turn off at 12 knots for downwind legs only.

The 1999 Worlds in Melb was the first regatta I saw the 470 use the 'yellow' flag and during the race the wind died. The RC left the 'yellow' flag up and the last beat to the finish line became a pumping race, with the whole fleet using the crews standing on the deck and pumping the mast! That does not fit my idea of sailing at all.

#11 knobblyoldjimbo

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:29 AM

but these are elite ATHLETES just using sailing as a means to a medal.

#12 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 01:59 PM

Watched an edited version of race 8 of the radials and there was clear contact at the last leeward mark between bel and fin right in front of the jury boat, no penalties were immediately done. Is cheating also the norm at this level?

Typically, OTW judges / immediate penalties are for Rule 42 violations only. The judges may protest boats involved in a Part 2 incident, though. You wouldn't see anything about that on the water.




#13 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 03:41 PM

there ain't 8 knots out there,,, rigs are bouncing all over the place.. Looks like pole dancing from a wire.. Any average spectator watching this would wonder WTF is this all about?

#14 RobG

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 04:57 AM

Seems you can hit marks in the RS-X too, one or two clearly touched at most roundings. The commentators didn't mention penalties at all, though the coverage may have just failed to show them doing their 360.

#15 dogwatch

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 05:02 AM

Seems you can hit marks in the RS-X too


Yes you can.

#16 dogwatch

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 05:04 AM

Race 6, British 470 women yellow-flagged for excessive shagging. Lordy.

#17 BalticBandit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 05:12 PM

HAve to say that the commentary is particularly pitiful. The re-explain what "the left side of the course is" Numerous times, but spend almost no time on InBoat Video where they could explain the athleticism and fitness required, and then do 'cut-aways' to canned segments on what's involved sailing these boats - the combination of technical knowledge and fitness. The 49ers in particular is bad. Its a testament to the crews as to how smoothly they execute all of the maneuvers, but it makes it look easy, and a "canned segment" demonstrating how hard it is to keep a 49er upright would help in understanding these sports way more than the inane commentary

#18 akasideshow

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:31 PM

but these are elite ATHLETES just using sailing as a means to a medal.



boo hiss to this remark,
they are sailors who are so driven to succeed they become athletes, but they will always be sailors. Great sailors who inspire our youth and make all us old buggers proud.

#19 Cloudbase

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:07 PM

It seems to me that allowing kinetics of any kind under any conditions opens up a lot of room for abuse and unfairness. I understand the skill and beauty behind it but is it really worth the negatives?



#20 SimonN

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:58 PM

It seems to me that allowing kinetics of any kind under any conditions opens up a lot of room for abuse and unfairness. I understand the skill and beauty behind it but is it really worth the negatives?

Sorry, but that defies logic. Allowing kinetics was done in order to make it fair and to stop abuse of the rules. When there are limits imposed by the rules, it becomes a contest about who can get away with using kinetics the most, without penalty. When there are limits, such as in the Laser, there is a view that if you don't get penalised occasionally, you aren't pushing the limit hard enough. The umpires cannot police teh whole course all teh time, so being aware of when you can and cannot get away with kinetics is all part of the game. Then there is the problem of different interpretations of the rules. There is a lot of evidence to say that different umpires view the way a sailor uses kinetics in different ways. Paul Goodison suffered from this, when one umpire didn't like his technique so much he ended up giving Goody so many penalties that he was dsq'd, despite the fact he had only been shown yellow once in 18 months and was using the same technique. Goody left the event totally puzzled, not least because in one case, another umpire at the same event thought his technique was legal.

Allowing all kinetics is the only absolutely fair option. It might not be what we want, but it leaves no room for interpretation. There are no grey areas - everything is allowed. And for me, when the Finns are allowed free kinetics, the whole thing looks far more dynamic and exciting. I actually think it looks far better on TV and you get a bigger difference in performance that can only be explained by one sailor being better than the others.

#21 BalticBandit

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:21 PM

SLightly off topic But appropriate to the ROW coverage by NBC
Attached File  OlympicsNBC.gif   41.44K   9 downloads

#22 Cloudbase

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:37 PM

Sorry, but that defies logic. Allowing kinetics was done in order to make it fair and to stop abuse of the rules. When there are limits imposed by the rules, it becomes a contest about who can get away with using kinetics the most, without penalty.......
........Allowing all kinetics is the only absolutely fair option.


I see what you are saying, and that does make sense so long as all kinetics are allowed. It just seems that some of the kinetics are a little cheap. If all were allowed, then in super light conditions (like under 3 knots of wind), wouldn't every just pump their boat all the way up and down the course? Heck, I guess that might be more exciting to watch than everyone just sitting there, now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like "sailing" though......

#23 BalticBandit

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:13 AM


Sorry, but that defies logic. Allowing kinetics was done in order to make it fair and to stop abuse of the rules. When there are limits imposed by the rules, it becomes a contest about who can get away with using kinetics the most, without penalty.......
........Allowing all kinetics is the only absolutely fair option.


I see what you are saying, and that does make sense so long as all kinetics are allowed. It just seems that some of the kinetics are a little cheap. If all were allowed, then in super light conditions (like under 3 knots of wind), wouldn't every just pump their boat all the way up and down the course? Heck, I guess that might be more exciting to watch than everyone just sitting there, now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like "sailing" though......

WEll that's why some more modern classes - windsurfers included - have windspeed MINIMUMS. Remember that in "the old days" (less than 70 years ago) things like Kedging, and Sandbagging and all other manner of "kinetics" that we would not allow today, were part and parcel of racing. Remember that "racing" evolved from warships giving chase to prizes and cargo ships reducing transit times. So kedging and rowing and all other manner of propulsion was what you did to move forwards.

Even with the "age of steam" crossing records still allowed for hybrid means of propulsion.

#24 dogwatch

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 05:19 AM

I see what you are saying, and that does make sense so long as all kinetics are allowed. It just seems that some of the kinetics are a little cheap. If all were allowed, then in super light conditions (like under 3 knots of wind), wouldn't every just pump their boat all the way up and down the course? Heck, I guess that might be more exciting to watch than everyone just sitting there, now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like "sailing" though......


I used to course-race boards and it was entirely possible to pump around a course in zero wind. There's skill to it but mostly it's about fitness. Pumping continuously for a 60-120 minute race is hard work. Arguably that's perfectly valid for Olympic classes. I guarantee it will kill participation in any class by general sailors who sail for pleasure. If sailors wanted to go rowing, presumably they'd go rowing not sailing. It was one of the things that killed long-board racing.

#25 dogwatch

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 05:23 AM

things like Kedging....." that we would not allow today, were part and parcel of racing.


Kedging is perfectly legitimate in modern racing and in fact quite common in offshore racing. You haven't lived until you've kedged in 40m and hauled the anchor up again.

#26 constantijn

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:50 AM

in the DN class (ice sailing) there was no rule that you needed to take your boat while racing. normaly in light wind you need to get out to run your boat up to speed (not only at the start).

there was a race were there was so little wind one guy left his boat at the start and just ran the complete course and won, without a boat....

Kinetics are a way to make slow boats faster. In 49ers or moths you do not see any rocking or pumping to go faster (in the moth only to get airborne)

#27 JimC

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:51 AM


things like Kedging....." that we would not allow today, were part and parcel of racing.

Kedging is perfectly legitimate in modern racing

He means real kedging, not just anchoring on the kedge anchor. Pulling yourself along the race track was presumably normal before before rule 42.

#28 JimC

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:59 AM

Kinetics are a way to make slow boats faster. In 49ers or moths you do not see any rocking or pumping to go faster

I can't speak for foil moths, but low riders and every other fastish boat I've sailed responds to kinetics wonderfully in the light stuff. Its just that given a decent bit of breeze its better to concentrate on not swimming.

#29 kmccabe

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:00 PM

pumping the boat on the wire has been around forever. Its not going away either. Part of the game. Like Gunwale running going downwind, its part of the game.

#30 BalticBandit

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 05:44 PM



things like Kedging....." that we would not allow today, were part and parcel of racing.

Kedging is perfectly legitimate in modern racing

He means real kedging, not just anchoring on the kedge anchor. Pulling yourself along the race track was presumably normal before before rule 42.

They used to have two crews - one in the longboat hauling the anchor upstream, the other on the capstan hauling the ship up to the other anchor. Lather Rinse Repeat.

#31 Chris 249

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:11 AM

As Dogwatch said, windsurfer racing gives us a perfect example of what happens with unrestricted kinetics. It turns into a contest where performance is often dominated by one aspect (pumping ability) that most people do not enjoy, and in which the things that make us go sailing (tactics, the feel of the wind slipping over a foil, close competition) fall by the wayside.

The windsurfer classes that allowed and encouraged unrestricted pumping (Raceboards, Mistral) have collapsed. New classes were specifically designed to avoid pumping by having vast rigs and wind limits that destroy club racing (FW) or by returning to the old rules that ban kinetics (Kona).

Windspeed minimums mean that you can't schedule a regatta in the same time frame, which makes life very very hard for volunteer committees and race personnel. Windspeed minimums mean that club racing gets screwed around because gear and techniques and culture start to revolve around conditions that most clubs don't get.

Pumping is physically easier in a board than in a boat in many ways (there's no boom or rudder to worry about when pumping) and yet it still caused havoc in windsurfer racing, so why let it cause destruction in dinghy racing?

Yes, there is a subjective element in kinetics (which modern cameras could surely reduce), but what would happen if we just opened the rules? Laser racing in light winds would consist of standing on the bow and rocking the rig and foils; other techniques not yet developed would turn the sport into something unlike sailing as we know it. Perhaps more importantly, a vast gap would develop between those in events were pumping was allowed and the club/national fleets, where pumping has to be banned or fit young males would obliterate light-wind events due to innate strength advantages, not skill. The fleet also opens up dramatically and the advantage shifts hugely towards full-time sailors, taking away the joy of racing against champions. In Lasers a good amateur can play with the best in certain winds, in boards where pumping is allowed you have no chance.

Re "Remember that in "the old days" (less than 70 years ago) things like Kedging, and Sandbagging and all other manner of "kinetics" that we would not allow today, were part and parcel of racing."

No, the first bans on kinetics were introduced in the racing canoes of the 19th century, because they found that it fucked up the racing. Kinetics were very rarely used for decades after that.

Sandbaggers were banned well over 70 years ago because they were dangerous and fucked up the racing. The sandbagger/skimming dish types were causing a horrendous death toll. Look at old newspaper reports and there are truly tragic tales of half a dozen people (or more) gradually losing the battle against drowning and hypothermia as they clung to upturned skimming dishes, or were trapped down below. As a report of the time said, those who buried the sandbagger did so because they had buried too many of the sandbagger's victims, and that was quite true.

The point is that the rules we use were not created by tradition-blinded morons, but by people who were so progressive that they could create things like kinetics and shifting ballast, and so progressive and flexible that they could then ban them when they saw the problems that were created.

Re "Remember that "racing" evolved from warships giving chase to prizes and cargo ships reducing transit times. So kedging and rowing and all other manner of propulsion was what you did to move forwards. Even with the "age of steam" crossing records still allowed for hybrid means of propulsion."

And as soon as yacht racing started, they brought in rules to prevent it from becoming a free for all. Ramming, boarding, gunfire, assault and cutting away of rigging were also all techniques used in warships collecting prizes but one would hardly suggest that they be legalised in sailboat racing simply because of that. I have done a LOT of historical research and can find no mainstream sailboat races that allowed for hybrid propulsion. There have been claims here that the Kaiser's Cup allowed steam winches but no evidence seems to exist in stuff I can find.

I should maybe point out that I have about 9 wins or top 3 finishes nationally in classes that allow pumping 50%-100% of the time (normally in fleets containing Olympians or ex-Olympians) so I have no reason to be biased against pumping due to lack of experience or skill in it. It's just that years of experience have shown so many issues with either unrestricted kinetics (and wind minimums) that one becomes utterly convinced that restrictions MUST remain.

PS- agree with Jim's comments re fast craft and pumping. Raceboards are fast and they react enormously to pumping, as do quick boats like Canoes. A Canoe actually responds better to rocking than a Laser does (in my experience anyway) because you can develop so much power.

#32 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 01:12 AM

there was a race were there was so little wind one guy left his boat at the start and just ran the complete course and won, without a boat....

the ultimate end game of kinetecs, not sailing so why have a sail

could he be judged port or starboard, mark room ?

rule 49 was his body outside the sheerline ?

in saying that i have NFI what rules iceboats sail under !!



#33 bruno

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 07:30 AM

Finally was able to watch the Finn and Star medal races, interesting. In the Star I was surprised there weren't a lot of 42s for rocking offwind, that's the main benefit beyond waterlining of having the crew up at the shrouds. In the Finns the unlimited pumping was grotesque, I guess that is why sir BA wears tracks shoes. Sure, there is more challenge of a physical and different technique, being so physical and still maintaining in tight tactical racing. But I wouldn't want to do that on an old Gold Cup course, non-sustainable. Shortening the races lends itself to that. And definitely you aren't looking around and analyzing, don't have time for that, you have to make it happen. So different, not really better to me, though it's kinda neat watching the Stars rock away.

#34 JimC

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 10:01 AM

It's just that years of experience have shown so many issues with either unrestricted kinetics (and wind minimums) that one becomes utterly convinced that restrictions MUST remain.

Yep. Gentle kinetics are great fun and enormously rewarding and satisfying on fast boats. There's a nice piece of writing in HPS one from Bethwaite about sailing his HSP in light airs which surpasses anything I could say on the subject. I do most of my sailing inland in light boats and when it comes to putting in a little rock or pump on other people's wakes, passing safety boat wakes, gust fronts and all the rest of it I'm right up to the limit of the current rules and I fear sometimes possibly beyond. I don't do it to win races: there's a talent deficiency there, but because its fun: harmony between sailor, boat, water and waves, all that stuff.

But the trouble is brutal kinetics beat gentle kinetics every time. And brutal kinetics ain't much fun - especially at my age and state of fitness.

#35 skiffboy

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 10:12 AM

... Ramming, boarding, gunfire, assault and cutting away of rigging were also all techniques used in warships collecting prizes but one would hardly suggest that they be legalised in sailboat racing simply because of that...

unless, of course, some photographer gets in your way...

#36 skiffboy

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 10:13 AM

It's just that years of experience have shown so many issues with either unrestricted kinetics (and wind minimums) that one becomes utterly convinced that restrictions MUST remain.

Yep. Gentle kinetics are great fun and enormously rewarding and satisfying on fast boats. There's a nice piece of writing in HPS one from Bethwaite about sailing his HSP in light airs which surpasses anything I could say on the subject. I do most of my sailing inland in light boats and when it comes to putting in a little rock or pump on other people's wakes, passing safety boat wakes, gust fronts and all the rest of it I'm right up to the limit of the current rules and I fear sometimes possibly beyond. I don't do it to win races: there's a talent deficiency there, but because its fun: harmony between sailor, boat, water and waves, all that stuff.

But the trouble is brutal kinetics beat gentle kinetics every time. And brutal kinetics ain't much fun - especially at my age and state of fitness.

I'm completely agreeing with this one.

#37 Seattle Dinghyer

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:50 PM

Race 6, British 470 women yellow-flagged for excessive shagging. Lordy.

Can I get those girls numbers?

#38 BalticBandit

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:33 PM

Sandbaggers were banned well over 70 years ago because they were dangerous and fucked up the racing. The sandbagger/skimming dish types were causing a horrendous death toll. Look at old newspaper reports and there are truly tragic tales of half a dozen people (or more) gradually losing the battle against drowning and hypothermia as they clung to upturned skimming dishes, or were trapped down below. As a report of the time said, those who buried the sandbagger did so because they had buried too many of the sandbagger's victims, and that was quite true.


Be careful with this one. Much of the "reporting" on 'sandbaggers' was in media owned by the wealthy Yachtie types. In particular in New York. And the reason they hated the sandbaggers was that most were "workboats" owned by "them", with crews that were used to hauling big loads (fish, clams) back and forth across their decks. And these "low class" boats had a habit ov making the Vanderbilt's et. al. fancy boats look slow.

#39 Chris 249

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:57 PM


Sandbaggers were banned well over 70 years ago because they were dangerous and fucked up the racing. The sandbagger/skimming dish types were causing a horrendous death toll. Look at old newspaper reports and there are truly tragic tales of half a dozen people (or more) gradually losing the battle against drowning and hypothermia as they clung to upturned skimming dishes, or were trapped down below. As a report of the time said, those who buried the sandbagger did so because they had buried too many of the sandbagger's victims, and that was quite true.


Be careful with this one. Much of the "reporting" on 'sandbaggers' was in media owned by the wealthy Yachtie types. In particular in New York. And the reason they hated the sandbaggers was that most were "workboats" owned by "them", with crews that were used to hauling big loads (fish, clams) back and forth across their decks. And these "low class" boats had a habit ov making the Vanderbilt's et. al. fancy boats look slow.


There's no evidence for any hate, and without evidence I'm not going to say there is any. Sandbagger sailors were actually treated with respect in press reports, as shown by reports such as the obits of Bob Fish and Jake Schmidt IIRC.

The press barons were not inventing the death tolls, complete with names and addresses of the victims, and continuing the conspiracy from NY to Australia. Therefore the fact that the skimming dish type in its sandbagger form and as passed on to Australia was dangerous cannot be denied. Only the most callous would have seen the bodies brought ashore and not tried to prevent such tragedies.

The skimming dish type was effectively banned even in the largest classes because (as the example of Mohawk proved) it was fatally dangerous. They did not stamp out the small working-class sandbaggers alone, they got rid even of the 100+ foot versions - hardly evidence of a class struggle. Nor was replacing an established type (skimming dishes) with new types (cutters and compromise sloops, Raters, etc) evidence of conservatism.

People like Iselin and other pillars of the Establishment were successful sandbagger sailors. Nor were the wealthy yachtsmen of the time snobby about picking up ideas from fast small boats and using them on big boats. The Mystic letters between Iselin (who wanted Reliance to be even more scow-like because of the example of the Seawanhaka Cup boats) and Nat Herreshoff are but one example of this. Some of the top establishment designers (Cary Smith, Crane) started out in radical small boats. Even people like John Stevens were into cats and that old line that NYYC banned cats is complete bullshit, they were completely accepted into regattas. These were not conservative people, as judged by their actions.

There's no evidence that I can see - and since I'm doing a PhD on this general topic I'm researching very deeply and rigourously - that there was a real class bias that had a major effect on sailboat racing rules. Even marxist sporting historians can find no EVIDENCE for this claim. Other historians have analysed membership of other YCs at the time and found that it was lower in socio-economic terms than many other sports.

Yes, there was an effect on racing from the amateur rule instigated by the SCYC, but that can easily be justified as we have the same sort of pro/amateur split happening today, either created by rules or effectively created by classes that are pro (470) and those that are amateur (505). Pro racing collapsed in similar sports around the same time due to fixed races, violence and changes in technology and society, therefore the collapse of the workiug class sandbagger culture is not necessarily related to NY sailing rules.

Sorry, but I can't assume a bias unless one is found, because that just leads to circular reasoning.

#40 fastyacht

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:40 AM


things like Kedging....." that we would not allow today, were part and parcel of racing.


Kedging is perfectly legitimate in modern racing and in fact quite common in offshore racing. You haven't lived until you've kedged in 40m and hauled the anchor up again.


In 1993 we started the Transatlantic in a drifter in the Hudson. Fortunately tide was ebbing. Just out the Narrows, in front of Coney Island, the tiny tidal breeze died and the current switched. There we were, with over 3000 miles ahead of us, anchored, eating dinner! I had a brief chat with a local on the ham radio, and we all laughed at the GPS reading 3 knots, then 0 knots then 2 knots etc because of the vagaries of Selective Availability and "the system is not yet fully operational".

Even farther back, in 1984, racing the GP-14 in the rain at Avalon NJ, during a beat into the flood current, I actually anchored to advantage. A 14ft dinghy using an anchor during a race. And it worked! We managed to win pewter (3rd place) for our old-fashioned efforts.

#41 fastyacht

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:50 AM

There's no evidence that I can see - and since I'm doing a PhD on this general topic I'm researching very deeply and rigourously - that there was a real class bias that had a major effect on sailboat racing rules. Even marxist sporting historians can find no EVIDENCE for this claim. Other historians have analysed membership of other YCs at the time and found that it was lower in socio-economic terms than many other sports.

Yes, there was an effect on racing from the amateur rule instigated by the SCYC, but that can easily be justified as we have the same sort of pro/amateur split happening today, either created by rules or effectively created by classes that are pro (470) and those that are amateur (505). Pro racing collapsed in similar sports around the same time due to fixed races, violence and changes in technology and society, therefore the collapse of the workiug class sandbagger culture is not necessarily related to NY sailing rules.

Sorry, but I can't assume a bias unless one is found, because that just leads to circular reasoning.


An interesting topic and one which is certainly worth the effort to explore. There are already too many myths and misconceptions about yachting--it is good to get some light on the topic in a robust and thorough way.

I suppose you have read the book "Steamers, Schooners, Cutters & Sloops" by Bunting? (Stebbins photos). He has some remarks in there about sandbaggers and sailors.

Also, rowing went through an amateur conversion in the 19th century as well--influenced by the betting problem. Of course the iconic painting of the Bigelow brothers "turning the stake" is from that earlier era.

#42 Steam Flyer

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:18 PM


There's no evidence that I can see - and since I'm doing a PhD on this general topic I'm researching very deeply and rigourously - that there was a real class bias that had a major effect on sailboat racing rules. Even marxist sporting historians can find no EVIDENCE for this claim. Other historians have analysed membership of other YCs at the time and found that it was lower in socio-economic terms than many other sports.

Yes, there was an effect on racing from the amateur rule instigated by the SCYC, but that can easily be justified as we have the same sort of pro/amateur split happening today, either created by rules or effectively created by classes that are pro (470) and those that are amateur (505). Pro racing collapsed in similar sports around the same time due to fixed races, violence and changes in technology and society, therefore the collapse of the workiug class sandbagger culture is not necessarily related to NY sailing rules.

Sorry, but I can't assume a bias unless one is found, because that just leads to circular reasoning.


An interesting topic and one which is certainly worth the effort to explore. There are already too many myths and misconceptions about yachting--it is good to get some light on the topic in a robust and thorough way.
... ...


Anoher reason why sandbagger racing died out (in the US at least) is the temperance movement; which also had a profound effect on other sports as well. It was found (and this seems to be true across a wide socio-economic range) that people attending sporting events sometimes drink alcohol. In a country with a big puritan streak to start with, and a bunch of Carrie Nation wanna-bees, it wasn't pretty!

FB- Doug

#43 High Flow

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:58 PM

any links to the vids of the shagging? can't find any with searching shagging on youtube ;)
thanks...
what about the skiffs? how important is the pumping in the 49er? non at all, or just not as much.
are the rules the same?

#44 USA190520

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:18 PM

its customary to pump the women's teams....while im sure there's a few 49er guys thatd allow a good pump (NTTAWWT)

thing is, it's tough to concentrate with a judge boat in the bedroom.....

#45 mustang__1

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:03 PM

no, 49er's and other higher performance, higher righting moment boats, do not respond (as) well to kinetics as boats like 470's and Finn's. My experience on the 29er is that a solid foot on the top of the wave can be beneficial. my experience (very limited) with 49er's and cats is that the boat either slowed down or didnt respond at all to my being physical with it. Now, the 29er and to a lesser extent, the 49er, do seem to respond well to more than one pump per wave. The 29er class has a Y flag to allow unlimited kite pumping downwind. the 49er does not (to my knowledge).




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