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Getting Jib Sheets Just Right


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#1 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:21 PM

OK, with our new jibs it has become clear that we need to move the jib's clew up and down much more often as we shift gears with changes in wind velocity. I'm going to be on a few long races soon, in which we'll go 20+ miles on a single tack, so just moving the car and then tacking won't work; although that works fine for us in buoy racing. As a result, I'm considering three options:

1) Buy one of the "normal" blocks that mounts at the front of the jib track and pulls the existing car forward. These are pretty expensive, for a four-fall pulley arraignment and I will need to terminate a line in a clutch back aft.

2) Build a downward pulling barber hauler to pull down and forward. This probably means a dyneema line from the ring that the inward pulling barber hauler already uses, to a ring at the front of the jib track and then aft. I may want to put a 4:1 in the run aft to make it easier to pull this without needing a winch. It probably still needs a clutch.

3) Get rid of the jib track entirely and go to a "real" modern jib sheeting system, like the TP-52s have. A lot of work, mostly filling the holes left behind by removing the track. The advantage is that the hard points can be much stronger than the current track and with the new sails that may matter, although nothing's broken yet.

Suggestions? Ideas? Am I missing something?

BV

#2 Bob Perry

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:33 PM

BV:
I would think an artfully arranged Barber hauler would give you both fore and aft sheet lead options and athwartships lead change options. Do you have any attachment points outboard? I'd go with the Barber hauler.
This is a question for the Hungster. I go to him for all these questions. While I can answer them, he can answer them better. Send him a pm.

#3 Great Red Shark

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:34 PM

You are right, the 'conventional' rig with blocks & line can be cumbersome & expensive. If a changing-sheet* can't get you where you want the lead to go, then it's one way to go - there are a number of systems that mount right on the tracks, thus minimizing the number of new holes you need to make.

Remember higher-aspect headsails are more sensitive to lead position and higher-clew jibs are generally more forgiving.

Athwartship track and 'floating' lead systems ARE pretty trick but can make repeatability harder - we had a deluxe GP-style system on a one-tonner I sailed and it was over the head of half the trimmers.


*changing-sheet system: short line from a handy padeye with shackle or carabiner to the clew takes the load temporarily while you shift the lead, then you shift back - not optimum, but if you aren't moving the leads often may suffice.

#4 Cavelamb

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:52 PM

BV:
I would think an artfully arranged Barber hauler would give you both fore and aft sheet lead options and athwartships lead change options. Do you have any attachment points outboard? I'd go with the Barber hauler.
This is a question for the Hungster. I go to him for all these questions. While I can answer them, he can answer them better. Send him a pm.


Do barber Haulers ever have two lines attached (to triangulate) the block?

#5 SEMIJim

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:15 AM

Here's a thought: http://l-36.com/twing.php

Jim

#6 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:12 AM

Bob, I'll PM the Hungster.

SemiJim, I remain amazed at how much STUFF is on i-30.com. He is my go-to guy for splices, softies, etc.... That drawing is almost exactly what I was considering. I may keep the track for a while, until it breaks or doesn't. The reason for switching from a track to a set of three strong points is that I can reinforce the strong points with knees and other bits of metal and carbon to insure they don't tear out. To reinforce the entire genoa track to that strength is just too much "stuff" below decks.

RedShark, I completely agree with your comment on the leach tension on high aspect ratio jibs. That's effectively what we're learning all over again. When shifting gears we are moving the main traveler up and down and matching that with the in-hauler on the jib sheet. But once we're all the way outboard with the jib in-hauler we need to start opening the leach by moving the car aft, that's why I'm now focusing on the movement of the car or doing the same thing with a twing or up-down-hauler.

You're absolutely right about repeatability! I have done trim on a number of boats with fully floating jib clews and I now carry a sharpie in my pocket. I mark everything! Otherwise I'm lost.

CaveLamb, I sure hope they have two lines as that's what I'm planning. That said, there can be some pretty messy tangles if you get things screwed up during a headsail change in the dark. All this floating jib sheet stuff really has evolved from day-sailing boats that almost never race in the dark. It takes some real clever 3D imagination to get the things sorted if someone drops it in the scupper and it twists around a few dozen times.

BV

#7 Joli

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:52 AM

Up and down is easy enough with back and forth of a harken car. In and out it's easy with a barber hauler. Do you want to make it more complicated?

#8 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:27 AM

Up and down is easy enough with back and forth of a harken car. In and out it's easy with a barber hauler. Do you want to make it more complicated?


I'm not sure that up and down is actually simpler with the jib car, one has to reinforce the entire track. With a hard point and a twing or down-hauler one need only build one strong point as opposed to 4' of track. I can't see any difference in the string complexity, both have a set of pulleys. It really seems that a single strong point is lighter and stronger, but more difficult to manage.

BV

#9 WHL

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:35 AM

BV,
Can you post an image of the sail plan showing the clew heights of your jibs and a deck plan?
When not racing, will any of the jibs be on a furler?
Will you need to sheet genoas, jib tops/reachers or are all the headsails jibs?

#10 Joli

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:18 AM

Beau, what I meant was the height of the clew is controlled by the fore and aft position of the car. If a track already exists simply adding roller cars gives you an easy way to adjust height. Pretty easy to de power by easing the car position. In and out without parallel track is a bit more challenging.

#11 SEMIJim

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:22 PM

Bob, I'll PM the Hungster.

SemiJim, I remain amazed at how much STUFF is on i-30.com. He is my go-to guy for splices, softies, etc.... That drawing is almost exactly what I was considering.

Yeah, I'm going to have to get some lengths of different sizes of Amsteel and some $randomHardware and do some experimenting.

After only five seasons (and three of those exceedingly abbreviated), I've obviously still got A Lot To Learn about sail trim, but the adjustability of the foresail fairlead cars under load is one I figured out right off. Problem is: Abracadabra's tracks are out on the toerail and come all the way back to the cockpit coaming. To put an adjustable car system on her would require a custom (read: even more expensive than expensive) solution, and we'd lose length to the rear.

However, somebody installed padeyes up just aft of the rear shroud chainplates, which might be just about the perfect spot for the twing solution. There's also a short track, just inside the toerail, extending just a bit fore and aft of the top shrouds. There's also a pair of snatch blocks and spare cars on the boat... hmmm... Going to have to add a pair of cam cleats...

/me adds it to The List...

Jim

#12 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 12:55 AM

Joli, yup, I agree. Moving the cars fore-n-aft on the existing track is certainly the simplest way. What I worry about is the addition of the near-zero-stretch headsails that will put a large peak load on the track when slatting and when the boat pounds. Everyone, from my sail maker to a few pro-sailor friends, have warned me that I may start to pull the nuts and washers that hold the track down through the deck. As a result, because I don't want to fix the damage after it happens, I've identified a couple of places near bulkheads where I can easily build a really strong reinforced point to mount a pad-eye. The alternative is to get a length of track identical to the one on the deck and just run it along the underside to distribute the load; bolting the two tracks together to sandwich the deck and hold it still.

WHL, I haven't got a drawing and I'm on the road at the moment so can't get pictures that will do it justice. Here's the verbal description. The track runs fore-n-aft along the corner where the deck meets the side of the trunk cabin. It runs from a long way ahead of where it needs to back to a long way after of where it needs to go. So far, even in the most extreme de-power situation we've had the car only about 1' aft of the most forward position. All the jibs have been cut to operate within that same 1 to 1.5 foot long section of track. However, the new 3Di jibs are much more sensitive and need a lot less car movement; but when they need it they really need it.

This track is located about 12 to 14 inches inboard of the toe rail, so Bob's point about an out-hauler for tight reaching makes some sense. Bob, in light wind we'll be using the Code-0 at any AWA greater than about 55°, but in heavy blast reaching we need a solution that is further outboard. Our most recent racing has been windward/leeward sausages, and as a result I've added a in-hauler that can get the clew up and over the trunk cabin where it really needs to be to let the boat point. Without in-hauling the jib it simply isn't possible to get the jib and main working together as the main will deliver on a much higher sailing angle than the jib without the in-hauler.

The jibs have their clew's located high enough to clear the cabin top, so they don't destroy the varnish, the foot aches downward towards the deck . Thus, when the boat is sailing hard on the wind in moderate seas and 12-15k of wind the main is on centerline, the jib is in-hauled all the way and the clew is an inch or two above the cabin top and about 1/3 of way from the position of the jib track and the centerline of the boat. This leaves the slot at about 28" wide.

In this first picture, you can see the the jib in-hauler eased a lot, the main is twisted off a little and the boat is slightly shifted because the wind is 14-17k. The boom is about 6" below centerline with some twist in it. The jib car is back one hole (4") from where it was at 10-14k of wind, you can see the foot of the jib is just a little stretched.

Posted Image


In this second picture, you can see the that the in-hauler is much tighter with the jib clew just above the lines leading aft to the clutches, the boom is up on centerline and both leaches are much tighter. The windspeed here was about 12k. The top of the jib is more open that I would trim it now, having sailed more in these conditions since this picture was taken. Note the SSteel strip along the corner of the cabin to protect the varnish where the in-hauled jib sheet grinds over the corner when it is pulled all the way in.

Posted Image


In this last photo you can see the boat from more astern and it's trimmed a bit more like the first photo. The main is too far too leeward for my tastes, but without feeling the pull on the tiller I really can't tell. The purpose of this photo is to show the slot, which is about 30" wide at the lower spreader.

Posted Image

#13 SailAR

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:14 AM

Beau- really sounds like two different issues. First is shock loading and the related strength of the mounting. The second is adjustability.

If your jib track is held in by washers and nuts, I would suggest it might be under-spec'ed. I think the first and easiest approach is to do as you indicated and get a proper backing plate for the track. We have an aluminum u-channel which has never shown any signs of deflection.

As for adjustability, maybe a small track on or just inside the toe rail for a sliding eye and barber haul.. Also comes in handy for other things like preventers, removable cleats, etc.

Just my $0.02,YMMV

S'agapo is stunning in those pics.

#14 Ajax

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:39 AM

My eyes glazed over as soon as I saw the photos. Drooooooolll...

#15 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:46 AM

My eyes glazed over as soon as I saw the photos. Drooooooolll...


Well, you're no help! :lol:

I know all about it, luckily I don't have to look at her. If I did I'd never be able to concentrate on sailing her. :unsure:

#16 Joli

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:15 AM

Damn pretty boat Beau, she must be a delight to sail.

#17 P_Wop

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:51 PM

Chiming in with my $0.02

I think the movable car on track system would tackle the primary issue, and also mitigate night-time snarls with a floating setup. You mentioned that there's a very limited range of fore-aft movement needed of the sheeting position, which would be normal for a high-performance non-overlap jib.

So I'd suggest two things:

1. Beefing up the under-deck reinforcement, which you'd probably want to do anyway due to the low-stretch nature of these sails. Others have suggested an inverted 'U' channel of aluminium - I've found this works very nicely. Make it pretty stout, though, and find a local shop to anodize it.

2. A 12:1 or even 16:1 spectra tackle set up as 2:1 on the car, with 2:1 on the tail and a 3:1 or 4:1 tackle on the end of that, led back to a camcleat on the coaming (or even on the doghouse). It should be quite adjustable by hand. If not, make the car tackle a 3:1 and it goes to 18:1 or 24:1 (ignoring friction). Important to rig a bit of bungee from the back of the car to the back of the track to keep everything taught, and help the car move aft in light air.

The limited car travel needed should make this rig quite flexible. You WILL have to ease an inch or two of sheet as you bring the car forward, otherwise you will tend to overload the balls in the car.

3. A padeye on the rail for a separate outside lead sheet would be just fine.

IMHO and YMMV, of course.

And please let me know when I can come sailing with you!

#18 WHL

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 06:22 PM

Chiming in with my $0.02

I think the movable car on track system would tackle the primary issue, and also mitigate night-time snarls with a floating setup. You mentioned that there's a very limited range of fore-aft movement needed of the sheeting position, which would be normal for a high-performance non-overlap jib.

So I'd suggest two things:

1. Beefing up the under-deck reinforcement, which you'd probably want to do anyway due to the low-stretch nature of these sails. Others have suggested an inverted 'U' channel of aluminium - I've found this works very nicely. Make it pretty stout, though, and find a local shop to anodize it.

2. A 12:1 or even 16:1 spectra tackle set up as 2:1 on the car, with 2:1 on the tail and a 3:1 or 4:1 tackle on the end of that, led back to a camcleat on the coaming (or even on the doghouse). It should be quite adjustable by hand. If not, make the car tackle a 3:1 and it goes to 18:1 or 24:1 (ignoring friction). Important to rig a bit of bungee from the back of the car to the back of the track to keep everything taught, and help the car move aft in light air.

The limited car travel needed should make this rig quite flexible. You WILL have to ease an inch or two of sheet as you bring the car forward, otherwise you will tend to overload the balls in the car.

3. A padeye on the rail for a separate outside lead sheet would be just fine.

IMHO and YMMV, of course.

And please let me know when I can come sailing with you!


As chopper would say "Spot on".

#19 kdh

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 09:32 PM

Boat looks so fucking cool, BV, even with lifelines!

I've always thought jibs should have booms like a main does, with a vang.

#20 mrgnstrn

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:50 PM

A couple of clarifying questions:

Do you currently have a jib track that is compatible with some sort of adjustable lead?
Is it pinstop today, or just a Pain-in-the-Ass to adjust the adjustable one?
Would it be more fruitful to play/adjust the inhauler instead of the car?
Is there any otherkind of jib that will be used with this boat?

So, based on those, if you have to replace the track anyway (if that's the case), why not use the old track as the backing for hte new track. then you would have the "track sandwich" that you mentioned, but already have the ones that mount under the deck.

If you find that you will only be using this size/shape jib, then I say go for the transverse-track arrangement, if it will come "inboard" far enough. the picture shows that you inhaul far enough to need the chafe strip on the cabin, not sure if you will get away with not having that with a transverse car.

On my boat, I have 1/4" thick, 1.5" wide aluminum bar/strip as the backing for my jib leads. it's as long as the track (continuous piece). can be bought at home depot or similar hardware store (at least in 8' lengths)

-M

#21 El Crapitano

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:11 PM

A set of Harken ball bearing cars and associated tracks could take care of both the strength and adjustment issues. The beefier track will spread the load better than a standard T track. Makes adjusting trim ez. I had them and loved them. Don't know about the aesthetics though. Kinda modern and plasticky compared to the rest of your boat.

#22 Elegua

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:51 AM

Take a look at what the Petticrow International Dragon does with it' sheets and barbers and twings - you can practically move the clew in 3 dimensions - which is pretty important for them since they use big stretchy genoas that need adjusting every puff.

#23 6924

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:00 AM

Beau,

Have you thought this much about the really important stuff like how to keep the beer cold and where to stow enough ?

#24 Student_Driver

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:17 AM

Have you seen the Jib booms on the Alerion 28s? Would it be possible to have a jib boom and then a track along the top of the boom (from the end of the boom towards the front) such that you could position the jib boom with the sheet to get the angle and then move the clew forward and aft with the track?

#25 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:18 PM

Beau,

Have you thought this much about the really important stuff like how to keep the beer cold and where to stow enough ?


Now we're talking

Yup. There is a beer cooler - holds 8 six packs - that sits in a cockpit locker right on top of the life raft. I figure we'll need to drink the beer before getting into the raft :rolleyes:

The beer cooler is removable, to save weight when we don't want it, but the boat also has a 4 six pack sized fridge in the galley that runs off the batteries. We don't use the fridge much, the beer cooler holds enough sandwiches and beer and wine and apple juice and gatoraid to get us through most sails.

Warm beer, for later insertion into the cooler (or for our English guests) is kept on the opposite side to avoid undue heeling.

BV

#26 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:38 PM

Have you seen the Jib booms on the Alerion 28s? Would it be possible to have a jib boom and then a track along the top of the boom (from the end of the boom towards the front) such that you could position the jib boom with the sheet to get the angle and then move the clew forward and aft with the track?


All,

I'm not all that fond of jib booms, having been swept overboard by an accidental gybe of the jib boom on my father's old boat. They are also a relatively heavy device to accomplish what I think can be well done by a set of light weight lines.

BV

#27 Soņadora

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:20 PM

Good info

But I'm with Ajax

having a boat like that would be like having Dolly Parton's tits. I'd just want to stay home and play with them all day long.

#28 kdh

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:53 PM

I think can be well done by a set of light weight lines.

This looks like a great setup. [Edit: got the link to work]

Posted Image


#29 WHL

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:32 PM


I think can be well done by a set of light weight lines.

This looks like a great setup. [Edit: got the link to work]

Posted Image


:lol::lol: Good one KDH

#30 Soņadora

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:11 PM


I think can be well done by a set of light weight lines.

This looks like a great setup. [Edit: got the link to work]

Posted Image



holy hell! that thing better make me breakfast!

#31 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:15 PM

Chiming in with my $0.02

I think the movable car on track system would tackle the primary issue, and also mitigate night-time snarls with a floating setup. You mentioned that there's a very limited range of fore-aft movement needed of the sheeting position, which would be normal for a high-performance non-overlap jib.

So I'd suggest two things:

1. Beefing up the under-deck reinforcement, which you'd probably want to do anyway due to the low-stretch nature of these sails. Others have suggested an inverted 'U' channel of aluminium - I've found this works very nicely. Make it pretty stout, though, and find a local shop to anodize it.

2. A 12:1 or even 16:1 spectra tackle set up as 2:1 on the car, with 2:1 on the tail and a 3:1 or 4:1 tackle on the end of that, led back to a camcleat on the coaming (or even on the doghouse). It should be quite adjustable by hand. If not, make the car tackle a 3:1 and it goes to 18:1 or 24:1 (ignoring friction). Important to rig a bit of bungee from the back of the car to the back of the track to keep everything taught, and help the car move aft in light air.

The limited car travel needed should make this rig quite flexible. You WILL have to ease an inch or two of sheet as you bring the car forward, otherwise you will tend to overload the balls in the car.

3. A padeye on the rail for a separate outside lead sheet would be just fine.

IMHO and YMMV, of course.

And please let me know when I can come sailing with you!


P-Wop,

You're always welcome aboard! I'll go ponder setting up a pulley on the current track to pull the thing forward. The advent of tiny dyneema line has certainly made these sorts of rigging tasks a lot easier. Re-inforcing the area that will be under highroad is pretty straight forward, but will require a tie-down to the ring frame below to transfer the load in my lightly built sloop.

Thanks,

BV

#32 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:17 PM

kdh,

I LOVE THAT!

BV

#33 P_Wop

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:44 AM


Chiming in with my $0.02

I think the movable car on track system would tackle the primary issue, and also mitigate night-time snarls with a floating setup. You mentioned that there's a very limited range of fore-aft movement needed of the sheeting position, which would be normal for a high-performance non-overlap jib.

So I'd suggest two things:

1. Beefing up the under-deck reinforcement, which you'd probably want to do anyway due to the low-stretch nature of these sails. Others have suggested an inverted 'U' channel of aluminium - I've found this works very nicely. Make it pretty stout, though, and find a local shop to anodize it.

2. A 12:1 or even 16:1 spectra tackle set up as 2:1 on the car, with 2:1 on the tail and a 3:1 or 4:1 tackle on the end of that, led back to a camcleat on the coaming (or even on the doghouse). It should be quite adjustable by hand. If not, make the car tackle a 3:1 and it goes to 18:1 or 24:1 (ignoring friction). Important to rig a bit of bungee from the back of the car to the back of the track to keep everything taught, and help the car move aft in light air.

The limited car travel needed should make this rig quite flexible. You WILL have to ease an inch or two of sheet as you bring the car forward, otherwise you will tend to overload the balls in the car.

3. A padeye on the rail for a separate outside lead sheet would be just fine.

IMHO and YMMV, of course.

And please let me know when I can come sailing with you!


P-Wop,

You're always welcome aboard! I'll go ponder setting up a pulley on the current track to pull the thing forward. The advent of tiny dyneema line has certainly made these sorts of rigging tasks a lot easier. Re-inforcing the area that will be under highroad is pretty straight forward, but will require a tie-down to the ring frame below to transfer the load in my lightly built sloop.

Thanks,

BV

Beau: I'd love to sail with you. Name the day. Another major lunch first?

Re the track and cars thing, I can't identify if you have ball-bearing cars (Harken etc...) or a T-track with piston stop cars. If the latter, my suggestion just won't work, since you'd have to remove the pistons, and especially since the friction between the car and the track, even if the car has teflon channel sleeves, will just be too much to get anything to move under load without destroying the sleeves.

Good idea for a tie-rod, though.

#34 GRUMPY

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:04 AM

Joli, yup, I agree. Moving the cars fore-n-aft on the existing track is certainly the simplest way. What I worry about is the addition of the near-zero-stretch headsails that will put a large peak load on the track when slatting and when the boat pounds. Everyone, from my sail maker to a few pro-sailor friends, have warned me that I may start to pull the nuts and washers that hold the track down through the deck. As a result, because I don't want to fix the damage after it happens, I've identified a couple of places near bulkheads where I can easily build a really strong reinforced point to mount a pad-eye. The alternative is to get a length of track identical to the one on the deck and just run it along the underside to distribute the load; bolting the two tracks together to sandwich the deck and hold it still.

WHL, I haven't got a drawing and I'm on the road at the moment so can't get pictures that will do it justice. Here's the verbal description. The track runs fore-n-aft along the corner where the deck meets the side of the trunk cabin. It runs from a long way ahead of where it needs to back to a long way after of where it needs to go. So far, even in the most extreme de-power situation we've had the car only about 1' aft of the most forward position. All the jibs have been cut to operate within that same 1 to 1.5 foot long section of track. However, the new 3Di jibs are much more sensitive and need a lot less car movement; but when they need it they really need it.

This track is located about 12 to 14 inches inboard of the toe rail, so Bob's point about an out-hauler for tight reaching makes some sense. Bob, in light wind we'll be using the Code-0 at any AWA greater than about 55°, but in heavy blast reaching we need a solution that is further outboard. Our most recent racing has been windward/leeward sausages, and as a result I've added a in-hauler that can get the clew up and over the trunk cabin where it really needs to be to let the boat point. Without in-hauling the jib it simply isn't possible to get the jib and main working together as the main will deliver on a much higher sailing angle than the jib without the in-hauler.

The jibs have their clew's located high enough to clear the cabin top, so they don't destroy the varnish, the foot aches downward towards the deck . Thus, when the boat is sailing hard on the wind in moderate seas and 12-15k of wind the main is on centerline, the jib is in-hauled all the way and the clew is an inch or two above the cabin top and about 1/3 of way from the position of the jib track and the centerline of the boat. This leaves the slot at about 28" wide.

In this first picture, you can see the the jib in-hauler eased a lot, the main is twisted off a little and the boat is slightly shifted because the wind is 14-17k. The boom is about 6" below centerline with some twist in it. The jib car is back one hole (4") from where it was at 10-14k of wind, you can see the foot of the jib is just a little stretched.

Posted Image


In this second picture, you can see the that the in-hauler is much tighter with the jib clew just above the lines leading aft to the clutches, the boom is up on centerline and both leaches are much tighter. The windspeed here was about 12k. The top of the jib is more open that I would trim it now, having sailed more in these conditions since this picture was taken. Note the SSteel strip along the corner of the cabin to protect the varnish where the in-hauled jib sheet grinds over the corner when it is pulled all the way in.

Posted Image


In this last photo you can see the boat from more astern and it's trimmed a bit more like the first photo. The main is too far too leeward for my tastes, but without feeling the pull on the tiller I really can't tell. The purpose of this photo is to show the slot, which is about 30" wide at the lower spreader.

Posted Image


That's a pretty boat mister. :)

#35 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:27 AM


I think can be well done by a set of light weight lines.

This looks like a great setup. [Edit: got the link to work]

Posted Image


KDH,

Not only do I not know what those lines do, I don't know which way the boat is going .... :blink:

BV

#36 floating dutchman

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:28 AM



I think can be well done by a set of light weight lines.

This looks like a great setup. [Edit: got the link to work]

Posted Image


KDH,

Not only do I not know what those lines do, I don't know which way the boat is going .... :blink:

BV

Looks like the average Flying Dutchman cockpit, Or at least 1/2 of it. :D

Beau if you made the barbahualer (fuck it, I spelled cockpit right) out of a more strechy rope would it allow the sail to twist off in the puffs, opening the slot and depower the rig a bit?
Something tell's me this is all wrong but I can't see how. Maybe its an idea worth further thought, maybe not.

#37 kdh

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:07 PM

Here is another view. It appears the bow is to the left right. I think.

Posted Image
http://hem.passagen....at/ebbe_jib.htm

Jib Sheeting

Rosen/Wenrup of Sweden

Ebbe and Olle race a Waterat 505, which has the main thwart angle forward as it goes outboard. They lead the jib sheet further aft and further outboard than they normally want to sheet, and barberhaul down and slightly in. A line - which appears to be fixed length, controls the distance inboard that the barber-hauler block can go.

#38 kdh

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:17 PM

By the way dutch, I think we can safely say those pictures are in the cotpit. Posted Image

#39 SemiSalt

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:20 PM

That's a pretty boat mister. :)


He should get a tax credit.

#40 Soņadora

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:26 PM

Here is another view. It appears the bow is to the left right. I think.

Posted Image
http://hem.passagen....at/ebbe_jib.htm

Jib Sheeting

Rosen/Wenrup of Sweden

Ebbe and Olle race a Waterat 505, which has the main thwart angle forward as it goes outboard. They lead the jib sheet further aft and further outboard than they normally want to sheet, and barberhaul down and slightly in. A line - which appears to be fixed length, controls the distance inboard that the barber-hauler block can go.


whew

I feel much better now knowing they have a signal flag reference card within easy view.

and here's what's in the link. I rearranged some of the words to make it more understandable.

Ebbe and Olle race a Waterat 505, which has the angle main thwart outboard forward as it goes. They lead the aft further jib sheet outboard than they normally want to sheet, and barberhaul A line - down and slightly in to be fixed length, controls the inboard barber-hauler block that the distance can go.



#41 Ajax

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:33 PM

Good info

But I'm with Ajax

having a boat like that would be like having Dolly Parton's tits. I'd just want to stay home and play with them all day long.


Bwhahahaha!

#42 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 05:44 PM

Guessing that you don't have ball bearing cars already and that replacing the whole track is a pain, maybe you can combine the changing sheet & movable car. How about a bulletproof padeye near the center of your sheeting range just outside the track? Use a teflon sliding car and adjustable purchase system. Should work well in the low wind range (without the changing sheet) and allow you to unload it with the changing sheet to move it when the wind is up. Alternatively, if the geometry works, put the padeye on the rail for reaching and another attachment point inboard of the jib lead so that you use a bridle for the changing sheet. If the padeyes are in the right places this would maybe let you load up the changing sheet (with a 2:1 advantage) with the force centered over the top of the track. Could also be used for barber hauling in/out when needed.

#43 Ishmael

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:49 PM

Garhauer will make custom ball bearing cars, our C&C fleet is generally equipped with the old Merriman H track and doesn't take a standard car. Talk to Guido...

#44 mrgnstrn

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:57 PM

Garhauer will make custom ball bearing cars, our C&C fleet is generally equipped with the old Merriman H track and doesn't take a standard car. Talk to Guido...


Ish,

Do those things actually adjust under load?
U have actual experiend here?

-M

#45 Ishmael

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:08 PM


Garhauer will make custom ball bearing cars, our C&C fleet is generally equipped with the old Merriman H track and doesn't take a standard car. Talk to Guido...


Ish,

Do those things actually adjust under load?
U have actual experiend here?

-M


No personal experience, but there are those on Stu's List that swear by them. Maybe put the question out there?

#46 Schnick

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:30 PM

If you have pin-stop cars, it is easy to use the existing car as the base for an up-down adjuster. And, because S'Agapo uses non-overlapping jibs, you should be able to 'hang' the floating lead with a bungee cord up to the D1, which may save you significant varnish damage. The bonus is that you can still use the track and car as a 'coarse' adjustment if needed, and then the up-down control is like a fine tune, and will require probably less purchase than a fore-aft adjuster would require.

I would lead the up/down line fixed to the front of the track car, up through the ring or floating lead, down through the existing car (2:1), then probably another cascade and a 4:1 for a total of 16:1 on the adjuster. Remember when it is eased the inhauler may start to share some of the load too. I bet that would get you pretty close.

This setup will also allow the sheet to travel outboard further when the inhaul is released than what you would get with a sliding track, because the floating lead will naturally travel to leeward without the inhauler pulling on it.

I did exactly this on a Santana 35 a while back, but with less purchase, and it worked great and no additional holes had to be put in the boat, except for mounting the final purchase and cleat aft.

#47 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:05 AM

Guessing that you don't have ball bearing cars already and that replacing the whole track is a pain, maybe you can combine the changing sheet & movable car. How about a bulletproof padeye near the center of your sheeting range just outside the track? Use a teflon sliding car and adjustable purchase system. Should work well in the low wind range (without the changing sheet) and allow you to unload it with the changing sheet to move it when the wind is up. Alternatively, if the geometry works, put the padeye on the rail for reaching and another attachment point inboard of the jib lead so that you use a bridle for the changing sheet. If the padeyes are in the right places this would maybe let you load up the changing sheet (with a 2:1 advantage) with the force centered over the top of the track. Could also be used for barber hauling in/out when needed.


I've been pondering the "changing sheet" approach. It's biggest problem is the speed of adjustment. On the upper end race boats I crew on, we move the car with each puff, just as we move the Main traveller.


FD - I have asked about stretchy barber haulers to auto flex and relieve the leach, after all we've done it with the top of dingy masts for years. I also set up my Main traveler control line to do this. But after a number of chats with the best trimmers I know I became convinced that one doesn't want that. The eye/skill of a great trimmer is knowing when to ease and when not to.


Schnick - you have pretty well described what I am going to do first to test all this. I can put another car at the front of the track and use it to pull down. The regular sheet car will be pinned at the aft most position. I'll use at least a 16:1 so I can hand haul it and see how it goes. I am also going to use a small shackle at the base of the downhauler tackle as a fuse to save the boat if the shock loads get too great.

I tried hanging the barber hauler ring from the D1 a few months ago and kept tripping over it. Also, I use a harness/tether/jacklines and it is a mess getting to the foredeck if the ring is up in the air like that tied outboard. Before I was forced (by the rules) to add lifelines it worked because I ran the jacklines outboard of the shroud and went around the outside of it all. That said, I don't like jacklines near the rail, they belong inboard.

Thanks all,

BV




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