361 replies to this topic

[cosmicsedso]

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Never ascribe to malice what may satisfactorily be explained by incompetence.

Wow! Thats a lot of folk on the payroll.
I see an 'Offshore' group and an 'Inshore' group but NO dinghy or off the beach....

[SimonN]

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Wow! Thats a lot of folk on the payroll.

It's funny how people have different perceptions. I was shocked at how few there were! USSA employs 45 people and covers a country with a population of over 300 million. Yachting Australia lists 23 staff as direct contacts for a country of 22.5 million. As has been mentioned above, the RYA in the UK employs 150 for a population of 62.5 million.

I really cannot get excited enough to do any more research, but it does seem to me that USSA doesn't seem to be meeting the needs of the communities they serve and don't seem to be very well equiped to promote and expand our sport. I suspect from what I have read that this won't come as news to many on here.

[bye bye]

One of the ironies of this whole "track" in the boats we use now that is being promoted, and identifying it early, is that a guy like Brenner who came to the game relatively late at age 20 would now never have a chance to break into the game at the Olympic level. I keep hearing this refrain about how we have to start identify and putting resources against 12 year olds in Opti's. WTF are we, gynmanstics?

Current thinking seems to be that time on the water is what matters up to the age of 12-14. Doesn't really matter what the boat is, but the more sailing they are doing (real sailing not sitting on the side while some one else does the work and thinking) the more likely it is that they will transition to the next stage successfully. A large part of that is that the kids who are spending a large amount of time on the water are the ones who are compulsive and hooked enough to have the dedication required in their teens to stay focused.

Are the Optimaffia right? No.

Is it likely that the kind of kid you want to find is active in a program like the Optimaffia set-up? They probably are or they're probably the kids of families who spend all their spare time racing small boats with their kids.

It's at 14 and over that the real work starts. The work can start any time until eventually old age will catch ever body up by their mid 30s (and some people keep getting better for longer ... usually the ones who started getting better latter).
The latter you start the more you have to catch up. Will you ever catch up with the very very very very few people (it only takes 1 person to win a gold medal) who have been pedal to the metal since their early teens and managed to keep focused and improving? Probably not.

Could someone start their development through college sailing and catch up with the kind of thing that's going on else where? Once upon a time, when other countries didn't have the kind of programs the have now, yes. These days? Probably not ... in fact even, with all the natural talent in the world, almost certainly not.

College sailing does a great job of teaching kids how to enjoy sailing, how to enjoy sailing with and against other people and how to organize sailing. Generally college sailors are life long sailors in a way that kids exiting at the post Opti stage are almost certainly not (20-30% retention into adult sailing for the Opti sailors vs 80-90% for people who sail at college irrespective of previous sailing experience). It no longer prepares them to medal at the Olympics. Claiming it does or trying to have it do two the two things just lead to ... what you have now.

A group of late bloomers seem to have come to the US scene in the 90s/early 2000s. Given when Dean has said about what he found could it be that there was no quality there to keep them out? They campaigned for Olympic selection, relatively few of them seem to have gone on to an actual Olympic campaign.

They have formed the basis of the Olympic program getting it's shit together and incrementally they have bought through the next group, who are better than they where but fell short at the final measure. And now the next wave is coming, one that's shown the kind of indicators Simon looks for.

Would another approach work? The approach ignores or cast off loads and loads of people who at some point with an equal chance and resources could well have made it. So almost certainly yes. But with a limited amount of money available, not with the same degree of likelihood of having a positive outcome.

So, to sum up your observation Simon, yes, Brenner IS responsible for helping to nurture young talent, and IS responsible for selection of the team that represents the US at the ISAF World Youth Champs.

We have also seen the Optimafia claim that their program is working, because a year ago they couldn't get Andreassen to pay attention to them, but now he is helping to suggest that kids move from the Opti to the Laser 4.7. Utterly brilliant with the obvious. So, up to a year ago, there was seemingly no interaction with the US Sailing Olympic Cmte and the Opti class. Draw your own conclusions.

Sounds logical. Doubt the OC gives a monkeys about Opti sailing. They just want to see kids with hrs move into the laser 4.7 program that will start their Olympic development.

Should an Olympic or high performance program own youth sailing? Absolutely definitely not. The job of the high performance program is to find the 10 people required to medal at the Olympics (or at least that's the standard that is required of them by the baying crowd). They don't give a shit what happens to everyone else, and nor should they. Should they give a shit what happens after the Olympic dream is over? Not a chance .. well only in as much as it prevents people from committing to it unless they can show a mildly attractive exit rout. That's what the US version (f*** taking part it's all about the heavy metal!) of the Olympic dream means and that attitude applied to sailing at large is poisonous.

Does there need to be a hot house for prospective Olympic talent from the age of 14 using equipment that's appropriate for developing the skills needed to compete in the equipment used at the Olympics? If the US is going to match what is going on else where then yes. Should it be owned by it's customers (the people going through it and Olympic program they are being trained for). Who else knows what they want from that program?

Can it be run by the same people who are doing absolutely the right thing for sailing as a sport in general. No, not really not if you want the development program to work. If they do you end up trying to get to the Olympics sailing Club 420.

And that's what it looks like they've done. But only recently enough that the first graduates are only just coming into the Olympic program proper and by Deans own admission not with enough resource to do it properly. And by saying that they've focused on developing the current Olympic sailors as much to form the basis of the program going forward he's saying the general level of everyone in the program still needs to go up a level. Pretty much every one involved on the sailing side needs to be someone who has been an Olympic campaign -- a campaign for Olympic qualification may be the next best thing but you have to be careful as a lot of those that nearly made it tend to be pretty bitter about the things they feel stopped them, rather than focused on the things that the next gen need to do it better) them selves so that the program retains and builds upon it knowledge rather than needing to reinvent it.

That's how the UK program gradually got better and better.

[JimC]

Interesting Simon. I've avoided putting questions to Mr Brenner as I'm not in his constituency as it were, but in this case:

Superficially it looks as if there is some evidence that US Sailing is run with a much smaller base of full time staff that other National Authorities, although its difficult to make exact comparisons because the roles of different NAs vary so much. I presume you do compare notes with other NAs, so would you agree with that proposition, is that a problem for US Sailing, and if so what do you think can or should be done to change things.

[HobieAnarchy]

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[sigh] Try this.

http://about.ussaili...ctory/Staff.htm

Never ascribe to malice what may satisfactorily be explained by incompetence.

Wow! Thats a lot of folk on the payroll.
I see an 'Offshore' group and an 'Inshore' group but NO dinghy or off the beach....

"Inshore" covers dinghies and multihulls. Lee Parks is well worth her salary in that position. She also happens to be a Sunfish racer. NTTAWWT. Lee is instrumental in coordinating the One-Design Sailing Symposiums that US Sailing has organized more-or-less annually for the past 8 years, as well as providing support for the multihull and one-design class councils.

[MR.CLEAN]

PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (August 20, 2012) - US Sailing has named Josh Adams as the Managing Director of U.S. Olympic Sailing. This new full-time position officially begins September 4, 2012.
US Sailing President Gary Jobson said, “After months of research and an extensive interview process, we are confident that Josh Adams is right individual to take the U.S. Olympic Sailing program to the next level. His experience as a top competitor at the Olympic level

I thought he failed to even go to the Olympics. How does a trials loss make him a 'top competitor at the olympic level?'

I don't know if Jobson is so old that he's forgotten Adams' resume already, or if he thinks he needs to rewrite history to bolster his choice of the new Managing Director. How stupid does this guy think his members are?

Does Josh call himself a "top competitor at the Olympic level"? I know an awful lot of guys who've come in second or third at trials and not a single one would ever dream of calling himself that. They'd be humiliated if anyone did.

Sorry, these are not questions for you Dean, these are questions for Jobson, who has never taken my calls or answered an email, and Josh, who has always been a good guy to talk to. Just venting a little at how ridiculous Jobson and US Sailing's PR can be at times.

Clean,

This post attacking Josh is over the line. Josh is a great guy and a great competitor.

I also do not think Dean is to blame, that much. He is to blame for not answering the financial questions but no one could have excelled in the US Sailing/Newport culture.

You are exactly correct calling out the failure- US Sailing. Again, who with any sense would sign the US Sailing Team contract where they promise you nothing and have already sold your sails, hull and clothing to make sure their salaries are covered?

I am not attacking a single thing about Josh. Sorry mate, you need to read more carefully. Same with you Dawg. It might be a big deal for you to come third at a trials, but it doesn't make you a 'top competitor at the Olympic level.' By their very definition, only one team at each Trials is 'at the Olympic level.'

[MR.CLEAN]

Information removed?
HTTP 404 - Page Not Found!

[sigh] Try this.

http://about.ussaili...ctory/Staff.htm

Wow! Thats a lot of folk on the payroll.

It's funny how people have different perceptions. I was shocked at how few there were! USSA employs 45 people and covers a country with a population of over 300 million. Yachting Australia lists 23 staff as direct contacts for a country of 22.5 million. As has been mentioned above, the RYA in the UK employs 150 for a population of 62.5 million.

I really cannot get excited enough to do any more research, but it does seem to me that USSA doesn't seem to be meeting the needs of the communities they serve and don't seem to be very well equiped to promote and expand our sport. I suspect from what I have read that this won't come as news to many on here.

What does overall population have to do with anything?

It's about the number of sailors. Christ, 62 million Americans have probably never even seen a body of water bigger than a puddle.

[MR.CLEAN]

As good a place as any to post this interview with Finn Gold Medalist Freddy Loof and his coach Mark Ivey. Mark goes into why he left the US team, and there is a bunch of stuff in this 42 minutes that is very germane to this discussion.

[PeterHuston]

College sailing does a great job of teaching kids how to enjoy sailing, how to enjoy sailing with and against other people and how to organize sailing. Generally college sailors are life long sailors in a way that kids exiting at the post Opti stage are almost certainly not (20-30% retention into adult sailing for the Opti sailors vs 80-90% for people who sail at college irrespective of previous sailing experience). It no longer prepares them to medal at the Olympics. Claiming it does or trying to have it do two the two things just lead to ... what you have now.

Where are you getting these numbers, particularly the 80-90% of college sailors who become life long sailors? At the many places I sail, I sure don't see all that many post college kids sailing.

[JimC]

It's about the number of sailors. Christ, 62 million Americans have probably never even seen a body of water bigger than a puddle.

A quick google session produced (if I got my sums right) stats of 1.3 % of Americans participating in sailing in a recent year, 0.7% of Brits and 0.4% of Australians. How directly comparable those numbers are is quite another matter because they were all from different surveys conducted by different organisations presumably using different methodologies.

[bye bye]

College sailing does a great job of teaching kids how to enjoy sailing, how to enjoy sailing with and against other people and how to organize sailing. Generally college sailors are life long sailors in a way that kids exiting at the post Opti stage are almost certainly not (20-30% retention into adult sailing for the Opti sailors vs 80-90% for people who sail at college irrespective of previous sailing experience). It no longer prepares them to medal at the Olympics. Claiming it does or trying to have it do two the two things just lead to ... what you have now.

Where are you getting these numbers, particularly the 80-90% of college sailors who become life long sailors? At the many places I sail, I sure don't see all that many post college kids sailing.

You got me. Not from the US!

[PeterHuston]

College sailing does a great job of teaching kids how to enjoy sailing, how to enjoy sailing with and against other people and how to organize sailing. Generally college sailors are life long sailors in a way that kids exiting at the post Opti stage are almost certainly not (20-30% retention into adult sailing for the Opti sailors vs 80-90% for people who sail at college irrespective of previous sailing experience). It no longer prepares them to medal at the Olympics. Claiming it does or trying to have it do two the two things just lead to ... what you have now.

Where are you getting these numbers, particularly the 80-90% of college sailors who become life long sailors? At the many places I sail, I sure don't see all that many post college kids sailing.

You got me. Not from the US!

I know you aren't from the US, thanks for admitting same to those who hadn't figured it out yet. So why then are you talking about what the US should do, or statistics that are not specific to the US?

[kent_island_sailor]

AFAIK the Opti-420-College track has been an utter failure at creating lifelong sailors.

[bye bye]

Peter. I've never pretended to be from the US. I've identified my self as from Ireland (English with 7 years in Ireland) in this post. No one on SA would be stupid enough to assume everyone was USAnian. From the look of it no one from the US would post anything like my previous post either.

You asked me about the stats. The stats aren't from the US. They are from the UK/IRL where the college experience of sailing doesn't seem to be any different from the one the US ex-college sailors I've met describe -- i.e. it's mostly about getting drunk, trying to cop off with the opposite sex and a bit about team racing in shit old boats. In one of these threads College sailing in the US is defended as "letting students do the kind of sailing they enjoy". That's the main point.

Kent, Fair enough. So college sailors in the US don't stay in sailing and the opti-club 420-college schtic doesn't prepare them for the Olympics either? Great stuff.

[DoRag]

PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (August 20, 2012) - US Sailing has named Josh Adams as the Managing Director of U.S. Olympic Sailing. This new full-time position officially begins September 4, 2012.
US Sailing President Gary Jobson said, “After months of research and an extensive interview process, we are confident that Josh Adams is right individual to take the U.S. Olympic Sailing program to the next level. His experience as a top competitor at the Olympic level

I thought he failed to even go to the Olympics. How does a trials loss make him a 'top competitor at the olympic level?'

I don't know if Jobson is so old that he's forgotten Adams' resume already, or if he thinks he needs to rewrite history to bolster his choice of the new Managing Director. How stupid does this guy think his members are?

Does Josh call himself a "top competitor at the Olympic level"? I know an awful lot of guys who've come in second or third at trials and not a single one would ever dream of calling himself that. They'd be humiliated if anyone did.

Sorry, these are not questions for you Dean, these are questions for Jobson, who has never taken my calls or answered an email, and Josh, who has always been a good guy to talk to. Just venting a little at how ridiculous Jobson and US Sailing's PR can be at times.

Clean,

This post attacking Josh is over the line. Josh is a great guy and a great competitor.

I also do not think Dean is to blame, that much. He is to blame for not answering the financial questions but no one could have excelled in the US Sailing/Newport culture.

You are exactly correct calling out the failure- US Sailing. Again, who with any sense would sign the US Sailing Team contract where they promise you nothing and have already sold your sails, hull and clothing to make sure their salaries are covered?

Neither being a "great guy," or being a "great competitor," are necessary credentials for heading the US Olympic program.

Further, the head of the program is responsible for the results of the team. Period. It's called accountability. It's why he was paid $125K or so each year for a "part time" position. It was his progarm. He failed. There is no way to spin that or to put the blame on others - kind of like trying to blame George W Bush.

And yes, US Sailing is a part of the problem, primarily because they tolerated the excuses from Brenner for 8 years.

[Presuming Ed]

Superficially it looks as if there is some evidence that US Sailing is run with a much smaller base of full time staff that other National Authorities, although its difficult to make exact comparisons because the roles of different NAs vary so much. I presume you do compare notes with other NAs, so would you agree with that proposition, is that a problem for US Sailing, and if so what do you think can or should be done to change things.

Not overly surprising, given the history in the US of strong clubs and a weak MNA.

[JustDroppingBy]

What are you on about?

AT is ranked #1 in the world, has won the worlds and won a gold in another class. She IS the best in the world. She just didn't win the gold medal. It happens.

She didn't win anything in Weymouth, didn't win the 2012 worlds and I'd bet there are some Spanish girls who would say that she is not the best in the world. Claire LeRoy, FRA, was first in the rankings for years and she didn't medal either, nor did another odds on favorite from GBR.

My comments are not about Anna specifically, you can insert any name into them and the comments don't change. The commentary is about the process, not the personalities.

[DeanBrenner]

I've been away from this thread for a while... trying to take a little vacation after being away from my family all summer (again).

This has been a good experience for me, and I hope for some of you. I know for sure that some are not satisfied, and that is to be expected. I learned a long time ago that leading an organization means, almost by definition, that you'll satisfy some and not others.

I'll close with a summary of what I think I have been saying throughout this thread and for a while now:

1. Our team underperformed. There are a lot of reasons why, some of them long-term issues, and some of them short-term issues like game-day performance. We make no excuses, never have, and the blame starts with me. But I do have enormous faith and respect for our staff and our coaches, and I stand by them. I also stand by our sailors. Each of them are outstanding competitors, and outstanding people. They represented our country extraordinarily well. There are many ways to measure success... medals is only one of them.

2. Despite our underperformance, I do believe our Program is heading in the correct direction. We have increased our funding base significantly, and no other changes can happen without that. We've put in place a transparent funding system, and even those who don't like it, at least know exactly what everyone else gets and what has to be done to get funding. We've changed our culture. That seems less important to some, but I think it was incredibly important. We are a more collaborative and cooperative squad than we were 8 or even 4 years ago. We work together. We cheer for each other's success. We lift each other up. Some think that is unimportant. I disagree. And we've put in place the first elements of a development program. There is more work to do in all three areas, but these are the fundamental pieces of our long-term plan put in place 8 years ago, based on the direct feedback of the 2004 Olympic Team.

3. And finally, we needed to professionalize from top to bottom. Our athletes needed to stop being part-time, and so did our leadership. When I started in October 2004, it was me (part-time and volunteer), a head coach, an operational director and two Olympic coaches. That's it. No paralympic coaching. No dedicated media. No dedicated sponsorship effort. No dedicated fundraising effort. These are all the pieces that were needed if the team was going to be able to compete in the 21st century. And all those things are present now.

Do I wish we had done better at the Games? Of course I do. Do I rethink some decisions and wish we had done some things differently? Of course I do. But you can't think big and move fast AND make correct decisions 100% of the time. My head is high, and my conscience is clear. Our team give it our best shot. It just didn't work out.

I believe the future is bright for US Olympic Sailing, and I believe Josh Adams is the correct person to lead the effort.

So, I'm signing off from this thread, and now am focused on the P Games. Josh and I, along with Kenneth Andreasen, Jack Gierhart, and others will be heading over there to support the team, and cheer them on.

I appreciate the input and questions from the people in this thread. I think it has been a good experience.

Sail fast,

Dean

[MR.CLEAN]

It's about the number of sailors. Christ, 62 million Americans have probably never even seen a body of water bigger than a puddle.

A quick google session produced (if I got my sums right) stats of 1.3 % of Americans participating in sailing in a recent year, 0.7% of Brits and 0.4% of Australians. How directly comparable those numbers are is quite another matter because they were all from different surveys conducted by different organisations presumably using different methodologies.

A quick look at any body of water on a UK weekend vs that in the US would indicate otherwise. Then again, there are like 40,000 macgregor 25s here...do they count?

[Delta Blues]

This bears repeating.............

Crunching some of the numbers of the 2012 Olympics

Each country must qualify in each class in order to send a team to the Olympics. It is not automatic. The U.S. qualified in all 10 boats and sent teams for all 10 boats to England. Below I am listing the number of boats a country qualified (I did this with hash marks and interrupted many times, forgive me if I am off a digit here or there) for and what medals were won (G = Gold, S = Silver, B = Bronze):

GBR 10 Boats GSSSS
ESP 10 Boats GG
NZL 10 Boats GS
FRA 10 Boats B
What other countries sent 10 boats and did not medal? GER, USA. Footnote 10 of 30 (1/3) of all medals were won by these 4 countries. This group represents 60 of the total number of all boats.

SWE 9 Boats GB
POL 9 Boats BB
What other countries sent 9 boats and did not medal? CRO, CAN, GRE, ITA. This group represents 54 of the total number of all boats.

AUS 8 Boats GGGS
NED 8 Boats GSB
DEN 8 Boats SB
FIN 8 Boats SB
BRA 8 Boats B
What countries sent 8 boats and did not medal? POR, RUS. This group represents 56 of the total number of all boats.

CHN 7 Boats G
ARG 7 Boats B
What countries sent 7 boats and did not medal? None. This group represents 14 of the total number of all boats.

What countries sent 6 boats and did not medal? NOR, IRL, JPN. This group represents 18 of the total number of all boats.

What countries sent 5 boats and did not medal? EST, AUT, CZE, TUR, UKR, ISR. This group represents 30 of the total number of all boats.

BEL 4 Boats B
What countries sent 4 boats and did not medal? KOR, SLO, CHI, MEX, LTU. This group represents 24 of the total number of all boats.

CYP 3 Boats S
What countries sent 3 boats and did not medal? URU, GUA, HUN, ISV, COL, VEN, THA, SUI. This group represents 27 of the total number of all boats.

What countries sent 2 boats and did not medal? MNE, TRI, TUN, MON, MAS, HKG, BUL, THA, KGZ. This group represents 18 of the total number of all boats.

What countries sent 1 boat and did not medal? BER, BLR, IOA, LCA, PER, COK, SUI, RSA, TPE, EGY. This group represents 10 of the total number of all boats.

Clearly there is strength in numbers, the more boats sent, the more boats medaled. But it is no guarantee to medal. For example, of the 10 boat teams 2/3 of the countries won from 1 to 5 medals. With 60 boats from these countries out of the 311 boats total, or about 19% of all boats.

If we ignore the 3 and 4 boat country medals, it breaks down like this: countries that sent 7 to 10 boats won 93% of the medals with 59% of the total number of boats competing.

[DoRag]

DB has a man crush on Brenner.......

[Delta Blues]

DB has a man crush on Brenner.......

Our initials are the same!

Coincidence?

[smackdaddy]

So DB - does this get back to the point that we (U.S) seem to have a lot of breadth but no depth? As someone just learning about how USS is set-up, these results would seem to reflect what seems to be a very confusing and disjointed development path for the Olympics.

[Delta Blues]

So DB - does this get back to the point that we (U.S) seem to have a lot of breadth but no depth? As someone just learning about how USS is set-up, these results would seem to reflect what seems to be a very confusing and disjointed development path for the Olympics.

DB me, or DB Dean? hahahahaha.

In one of these threads, someone elequently pointed out that junior, high school and collegiate programs use Optimist and 420s. And they are not producing yacht club members or have spent any time in Olympic equipment. So where does U.S. Sailing pick up some 20 year old kid with years of experience in 470s, Kites, Finns, 49er, or Nacra 17 who have travelled nationally and internationally and have improved their skills up to a certain point. And then need to join the U.S. Sailing Team to make the leap to the next level? I know in my part of the country, I don't think there is a active regular racing of all of these classes: 470s, Kites, Finns, 49er, or Nacra 17. The only Olympic class with regular sailing is the Lasers, and a minor amount of Radial. For most classes around here, it isn't that it is shallow, it is that the lake dried up and there is no depth.

How is it in your region of the country?

[John Williams]

To be fair, and only to the point about the multihull; there can't be "active, regular racing" in this class until we get some boats here. Currently, the US allotment of ISAF-controlled boats is scheduled to arrive this December in Miami. Better to look instead at the active F16 and F18 fleets in the US, and the turnout at the qualifier for the Development Team that was held in the Keys last January. Subsequent to that event and the selection of the Nacra 17 as equipment, there have been about a dozen orders placed. Not a landslide, but a decent indication of interest and commitment, some of which is coming from outside traditional multihull circles.

[DoRag]

DB has a man crush on Brenner.......

Our initials are the same!

Coincidence?

I always suspected that DB was a sock puppet for US Sailing.

[GybeSet®]

DO-Rag

our young blokes are steering AC Cup boats in SF

don't see any yankee kids doing that, it's attitudes like yours you know ... You suck

[DoRag]

DO-Rag

our young blokes are steering AC Cup boats in SF

don't see any yankee kids doing that, it's attitudes like yours you know ... You suck

Only because Ellison has turned the program over. We all wish all the foreigners would go home. Those antics have destroyed the AC event.

[DoRag]

I've been away from this thread for a while... trying to take a little vacation after being away from my family all summer (again).

This has been a good experience for me, and I hope for some of you. I know for sure that some are not satisfied, and that is to be expected. I learned a long time ago that leading an organization means, almost by definition, that you'll satisfy some and not others.

I'll close with a summary of what I think I have been saying throughout this thread and for a while now:

1. Our team underperformed. There are a lot of reasons why, some of them long-term issues, and some of them short-term issues like game-day performance. We make no excuses, never have, and the blame starts with me. But I do have enormous faith and respect for our staff and our coaches, and I stand by them. I also stand by our sailors. Each of them are outstanding competitors, and outstanding people. They represented our country extraordinarily well. There are many ways to measure success... medals is only one of them.

2. Despite our underperformance, I do believe our Program is heading in the correct direction. We have increased our funding base significantly, and no other changes can happen without that. We've put in place a transparent funding system, and even those who don't like it, at least know exactly what everyone else gets and what has to be done to get funding. We've changed our culture. That seems less important to some, but I think it was incredibly important. We are a more collaborative and cooperative squad than we were 8 or even 4 years ago. We work together. We cheer for each other's success. We lift each other up. Some think that is unimportant. I disagree. And we've put in place the first elements of a development program. There is more work to do in all three areas, but these are the fundamental pieces of our long-term plan put in place 8 years ago, based on the direct feedback of the 2004 Olympic Team.

3. And finally, we needed to professionalize from top to bottom. Our athletes needed to stop being part-time, and so did our leadership. When I started in October 2004, it was me (part-time and volunteer), a head coach, an operational director and two Olympic coaches. That's it. No paralympic coaching. No dedicated media. No dedicated sponsorship effort. No dedicated fundraising effort. These are all the pieces that were needed if the team was going to be able to compete in the 21st century. And all those things are present now.

Do I wish we had done better at the Games? Of course I do. Do I rethink some decisions and wish we had done some things differently? Of course I do. But you can't think big and move fast AND make correct decisions 100% of the time. My head is high, and my conscience is clear. Our team give it our best shot. It just didn't work out.

I believe the future is bright for US Olympic Sailing, and I believe Josh Adams is the correct person to lead the effort.

So, I'm signing off from this thread, and now am focused on the P Games. Josh and I, along with Kenneth Andreasen, Jack Gierhart, and others will be heading over there to support the team, and cheer them on.

I appreciate the input and questions from the people in this thread. I think it has been a good experience.

Sail fast,

Dean

So here we have the quitessential spin machine at work. Let's parce through Brenner's "farewell.":

On point one, he weakly admits the team "underpreformed." Other folks would say the results were a total failure, perhaps the worse pereformance of any US team, etc. Then he goes on to mitigate his mild "mea culps" to say "that there are other ways to measure success." Really? What are those? It's the Olympics! Everyone keeps score by medals won. Except Brenner. Brenner, your team didn't win any medals, and in '08, your team won only two. You failed. No, Brenner, the other goals are secondary to, and supportive of, the real goal - which is win Olympic medals. A more applicable secondary goal might have been to avoid embarassing our country....

Next you say the plan is long term and achieving results. When you say the plan is long term, you seem to feel that excuses your performance in the current Olympics. Like companies that fail to meet short term earnings objectives yet say their long term vision is on course. That is the lament of losers. Contrast that with the mission of the US Ski Team - "To be the best in the world at Olympic skiing." A very clear statement, easily measured - the goals are out there. Win or go home. Compare that mission statement with your weasel worded mission statement, which defies accountability. Again, the spin machine - avoid commiting to anything measureable.

And no, you have not made any progress. In '08, the sailing team won two medals. This year they were shut out. Now, exactly how is this "progress?" You just can't spin this. You have failed in your job for 8 freakin' years!

And your third point just blames others and circumstances and claims all is well in the land of US Olympic sailing. You point out that, when you joined, nothing of value was in place. Yeah, right. The prior US Olympic teams represented their country and won medals. So, the obvious conclusion is that what was in place before you, in fact, did function better than whatever it is that you think you brought to the party.

I, and numerous others,. do not accept your lame excuses, your spin machine and your attempt to deflect blame. In eight years you have accomplished nothing of tangible value. You have failed. You can't spin that. Medals, Brenner, medals. Success - the US is a country that honors success (well, absent BHO).

[smackdaddy]

DO-Rag

our young blokes are steering AC Cup boats in SF

don't see any yankee kids doing that, it's attitudes like yours you know ... You suck

Only because Ellison has turned the program over. We all wish all the foreigners would go home. Those antics have destroyed the AC event.

Speak for yourself Do.

As a fellow Yank, I wouldn't at all mind seeing you go somewhere else. Your schtick is tired. Just sayin'.

[DoRag]

DO-Rag

our young blokes are steering AC Cup boats in SF

don't see any yankee kids doing that, it's attitudes like yours you know ... You suck

Only because Ellison has turned the program over. We all wish all the foreigners would go home. Those antics have destroyed the AC event.

Speak for yourself Do.

As a fellow Yank, I wouldn't at all mind seeing you go somewhere else. Your schtick is tired. Just sayin'.

Smackdiddy has a man crush on Dean Brenner.....

[cosmicsedso]

I've been away from this thread for a while... trying to take a little vacation after being away from my family all summer (again).

This has been a good experience for me, and I hope for some of you. I know for sure that some are not satisfied, and that is to be expected. I learned a long time ago that leading an organization means, almost by definition, that you'll satisfy some and not others.

I'll close with a summary of what I think I have been saying throughout this thread and for a while now:

1. Our team underperformed. There are a lot of reasons why, some of them long-term issues, and some of them short-term issues like game-day performance. We make no excuses, never have, and the blame starts with me. But I do have enormous faith and respect for our staff and our coaches, and I stand by them. I also stand by our sailors. Each of them are outstanding competitors, and outstanding people. They represented our country extraordinarily well. There are many ways to measure success... medals is only one of them.

2. Despite our underperformance, I do believe our Program is heading in the correct direction. We have increased our funding base significantly, and no other changes can happen without that. We've put in place a transparent funding system, and even those who don't like it, at least know exactly what everyone else gets and what has to be done to get funding. We've changed our culture. That seems less important to some, but I think it was incredibly important. We are a more collaborative and cooperative squad than we were 8 or even 4 years ago. We work together. We cheer for each other's success. We lift each other up. Some think that is unimportant. I disagree. And we've put in place the first elements of a development program. There is more work to do in all three areas, but these are the fundamental pieces of our long-term plan put in place 8 years ago, based on the direct feedback of the 2004 Olympic Team.

3. And finally, we needed to professionalize from top to bottom. Our athletes needed to stop being part-time, and so did our leadership. When I started in October 2004, it was me (part-time and volunteer), a head coach, an operational director and two Olympic coaches. That's it. No paralympic coaching. No dedicated media. No dedicated sponsorship effort. No dedicated fundraising effort. These are all the pieces that were needed if the team was going to be able to compete in the 21st century. And all those things are present now.

Do I wish we had done better at the Games? Of course I do. Do I rethink some decisions and wish we had done some things differently? Of course I do. But you can't think big and move fast AND make correct decisions 100% of the time. My head is high, and my conscience is clear. Our team give it our best shot. It just didn't work out.

I believe the future is bright for US Olympic Sailing, and I believe Josh Adams is the correct person to lead the effort.

So, I'm signing off from this thread, and now am focused on the P Games. Josh and I, along with Kenneth Andreasen, Jack Gierhart, and others will be heading over there to support the team, and cheer them on.

I appreciate the input and questions from the people in this thread. I think it has been a good experience.

Sail fast,

Dean

So here we have the quitessential spin machine at work. Let's parce through Brenner's "farewell.":

On point one, he weakly admits the team "underpreformed." Other folks would say the results were a total failure, perhaps the worse pereformance of any US team, etc. Then he goes on to mitigate his mild "mea culps" to say "that there are other ways to measure success." Really? What are those? It's the Olympics! Everyone keeps score by medals won. Except Brenner. Brenner, your team didn't win any medals, and in '08, your team won only two. You failed. No, Brenner, the other goals are secondary to, and supportive of, the real goal - which is win Olympic medals. A more applicable secondary goal might have been to avoid embarassing our country....

Next you say the plan is long term and achieving results. When you say the plan is long term, you seem to feel that excuses your performance in the current Olympics. Like companies that fail to meet short term earnings objectives yet say their long term vision is on course. That is the lament of losers. Contrast that with the mission of the US Ski Team - "To be the best in the world at Olympic skiing." A very clear statement, easily measured - the goals are out there. Win or go home. Compare that mission statement with your weasel worded mission statement, which defies accountability. Again, the spin machine - avoid commiting to anything measureable.

And no, you have not made any progress. In '08, the sailing team won two medals. This year they were shut out. Now, exactly how is this "progress?" You just can't spin this. You have failed in your job for 8 freakin' years!

And your third point just blames others and circumstances and claims all is well in the land of US Olympic sailing. You point out that, when you joined, nothing of value was in place. Yeah, right. The prior US Olympic teams represented their country and won medals. So, the obvious conclusion is that what was in place before you, in fact, did function better than whatever it is that you think you brought to the party.

I, and numerous others,. do not accept your lame excuses, your spin machine and your attempt to deflect blame. In eight years you have accomplished nothing of tangible value. You have failed. You can't spin that. Medals, Brenner, medals. Success - the US is a country that honors success (well, absent BHO).

DoRag DoRag DoRag.
What has happened to your lofty standards of grammar?
Normally I dont bother pointing out grammatical errors but since you seem to think its ok to hammer people who make an opposing point, using poor grammar, I can do likewise for a tired old worn out POV using kindergarten level spelling.

[jocal505]

Doey, yer back.


Yeah I get much of what you say, but you for one don't wear such American "success" very well.

[DoRag]

I've been away from this thread for a while... trying to take a little vacation after being away from my family all summer (again).

This has been a good experience for me, and I hope for some of you. I know for sure that some are not satisfied, and that is to be expected. I learned a long time ago that leading an organization means, almost by definition, that you'll satisfy some and not others.

I'll close with a summary of what I think I have been saying throughout this thread and for a while now:

1. Our team underperformed. There are a lot of reasons why, some of them long-term issues, and some of them short-term issues like game-day performance. We make no excuses, never have, and the blame starts with me. But I do have enormous faith and respect for our staff and our coaches, and I stand by them. I also stand by our sailors. Each of them are outstanding competitors, and outstanding people. They represented our country extraordinarily well. There are many ways to measure success... medals is only one of them.

2. Despite our underperformance, I do believe our Program is heading in the correct direction. We have increased our funding base significantly, and no other changes can happen without that. We've put in place a transparent funding system, and even those who don't like it, at least know exactly what everyone else gets and what has to be done to get funding. We've changed our culture. That seems less important to some, but I think it was incredibly important. We are a more collaborative and cooperative squad than we were 8 or even 4 years ago. We work together. We cheer for each other's success. We lift each other up. Some think that is unimportant. I disagree. And we've put in place the first elements of a development program. There is more work to do in all three areas, but these are the fundamental pieces of our long-term plan put in place 8 years ago, based on the direct feedback of the 2004 Olympic Team.

3. And finally, we needed to professionalize from top to bottom. Our athletes needed to stop being part-time, and so did our leadership. When I started in October 2004, it was me (part-time and volunteer), a head coach, an operational director and two Olympic coaches. That's it. No paralympic coaching. No dedicated media. No dedicated sponsorship effort. No dedicated fundraising effort. These are all the pieces that were needed if the team was going to be able to compete in the 21st century. And all those things are present now.

Do I wish we had done better at the Games? Of course I do. Do I rethink some decisions and wish we had done some things differently? Of course I do. But you can't think big and move fast AND make correct decisions 100% of the time. My head is high, and my conscience is clear. Our team give it our best shot. It just didn't work out.

I believe the future is bright for US Olympic Sailing, and I believe Josh Adams is the correct person to lead the effort.

So, I'm signing off from this thread, and now am focused on the P Games. Josh and I, along with Kenneth Andreasen, Jack Gierhart, and others will be heading over there to support the team, and cheer them on.

I appreciate the input and questions from the people in this thread. I think it has been a good experience.

Sail fast,

Dean

So here we have the quitessential spin machine at work. Let's parce through Brenner's "farewell.":

On point one, he weakly admits the team "underpreformed." Other folks would say the results were a total failure, perhaps the worse pereformance of any US team, etc. Then he goes on to mitigate his mild "mea culps" to say "that there are other ways to measure success." Really? What are those? It's the Olympics! Everyone keeps score by medals won. Except Brenner. Brenner, your team didn't win any medals, and in '08, your team won only two. You failed. No, Brenner, the other goals are secondary to, and supportive of, the real goal - which is win Olympic medals. A more applicable secondary goal might have been to avoid embarassing our country....

Next you say the plan is long term and achieving results. When you say the plan is long term, you seem to feel that excuses your performance in the current Olympics. Like companies that fail to meet short term earnings objectives yet say their long term vision is on course. That is the lament of losers. Contrast that with the mission of the US Ski Team - "To be the best in the world at Olympic skiing." A very clear statement, easily measured - the goals are out there. Win or go home. Compare that mission statement with your weasel worded mission statement, which defies accountability. Again, the spin machine - avoid commiting to anything measureable.

And no, you have not made any progress. In '08, the sailing team won two medals. This year they were shut out. Now, exactly how is this "progress?" You just can't spin this. You have failed in your job for 8 freakin' years!

And your third point just blames others and circumstances and claims all is well in the land of US Olympic sailing. You point out that, when you joined, nothing of value was in place. Yeah, right. The prior US Olympic teams represented their country and won medals. So, the obvious conclusion is that what was in place before you, in fact, did function better than whatever it is that you think you brought to the party.

I, and numerous others,. do not accept your lame excuses, your spin machine and your attempt to deflect blame. In eight years you have accomplished nothing of tangible value. You have failed. You can't spin that. Medals, Brenner, medals. Success - the US is a country that honors success (well, absent BHO).

DoRag DoRag DoRag.
What has happened to your lofty standards of grammar?
Normally I dont bother pointing out grammatical errors but since you seem to think its ok to hammer people who make an opposing point, using poor grammar, I can do likewise for a tired old worn out POV using kindergarten level spelling.

Typos, dork.

[DoRag]

Doey, yer back.


Yeah I get much of what you say, but you for one don't wear such American "success" very well.

That's your opinion.

Now, tell us again what you have done for your country.....that will take a second.......

[DoRag]

I've been away from this thread for a while... trying to take a little vacation after being away from my family all summer (again).

This has been a good experience for me, and I hope for some of you. I know for sure that some are not satisfied, and that is to be expected. I learned a long time ago that leading an organization means, almost by definition, that you'll satisfy some and not others.

I'll close with a summary of what I think I have been saying throughout this thread and for a while now:

1. Our team underperformed. There are a lot of reasons why, some of them long-term issues, and some of them short-term issues like game-day performance. We make no excuses, never have, and the blame starts with me. But I do have enormous faith and respect for our staff and our coaches, and I stand by them. I also stand by our sailors. Each of them are outstanding competitors, and outstanding people. They represented our country extraordinarily well. There are many ways to measure success... medals is only one of them.

2. Despite our underperformance, I do believe our Program is heading in the correct direction. We have increased our funding base significantly, and no other changes can happen without that. We've put in place a transparent funding system, and even those who don't like it, at least know exactly what everyone else gets and what has to be done to get funding. We've changed our culture. That seems less important to some, but I think it was incredibly important. We are a more collaborative and cooperative squad than we were 8 or even 4 years ago. We work together. We cheer for each other's success. We lift each other up. Some think that is unimportant. I disagree. And we've put in place the first elements of a development program. There is more work to do in all three areas, but these are the fundamental pieces of our long-term plan put in place 8 years ago, based on the direct feedback of the 2004 Olympic Team.

3. And finally, we needed to professionalize from top to bottom. Our athletes needed to stop being part-time, and so did our leadership. When I started in October 2004, it was me (part-time and volunteer), a head coach, an operational director and two Olympic coaches. That's it. No paralympic coaching. No dedicated media. No dedicated sponsorship effort. No dedicated fundraising effort. These are all the pieces that were needed if the team was going to be able to compete in the 21st century. And all those things are present now.

Do I wish we had done better at the Games? Of course I do. Do I rethink some decisions and wish we had done some things differently? Of course I do. But you can't think big and move fast AND make correct decisions 100% of the time. My head is high, and my conscience is clear. Our team give it our best shot. It just didn't work out.

I believe the future is bright for US Olympic Sailing, and I believe Josh Adams is the correct person to lead the effort.

So, I'm signing off from this thread, and now am focused on the P Games. Josh and I, along with Kenneth Andreasen, Jack Gierhart, and others will be heading over there to support the team, and cheer them on.

I appreciate the input and questions from the people in this thread. I think it has been a good experience.

Sail fast,

Dean

So here we have the quitessential spin machine at work. Let's parce through Brenner's "farewell.":

On point one, he weakly admits the team "underpreformed." Other folks would say the results were a total failure, perhaps the worse pereformance of any US team, etc. Then he goes on to mitigate his mild "mea culps" to say "that there are other ways to measure success." Really? What are those? It's the Olympics! Everyone keeps score by medals won. Except Brenner. Brenner, your team didn't win any medals, and in '08, your team won only two. You failed. No, Brenner, the other goals are secondary to, and supportive of, the real goal - which is win Olympic medals. A more applicable secondary goal might have been to avoid embarassing our country....

Next you say the plan is long term and achieving results. When you say the plan is long term, you seem to feel that excuses your performance in the current Olympics. Like companies that fail to meet short term earnings objectives yet say their long term vision is on course. That is the lament of losers. Contrast that with the mission of the US Ski Team - "To be the best in the world at Olympic skiing." A very clear statement, easily measured - the goals are out there. Win or go home. Compare that mission statement with your weasel worded mission statement, which defies accountability. Again, the spin machine - avoid commiting to anything measureable.

And no, you have not made any progress. In '08, the sailing team won two medals. This year they were shut out. Now, exactly how is this "progress?" You just can't spin this. You have failed in your job for 8 freakin' years!

And your third point just blames others and circumstances and claims all is well in the land of US Olympic sailing. You point out that, when you joined, nothing of value was in place. Yeah, right. The prior US Olympic teams represented their country and won medals. So, the obvious conclusion is that what was in place before you, in fact, did function better than whatever it is that you think you brought to the party.

I, and numerous others,. do not accept your lame excuses, your spin machine and your attempt to deflect blame. In eight years you have accomplished nothing of tangible value. You have failed. You can't spin that. Medals, Brenner, medals. Success - the US is a country that honors success (well, absent BHO).

DoRag DoRag DoRag.
What has happened to your lofty standards of grammar?
Normally I dont bother pointing out grammatical errors but since you seem to think its ok to hammer people who make an opposing point, using poor grammar, I can do likewise for a tired old worn out POV using kindergarten level spelling.

Typos, dork. They have nothing to do with grammar.

Now, why don't you know that?

[MR.CLEAN]

For DoRag

[ice9a]

 US olympic sailing.jpg   56.68K   50 downloads

[DoRag]

 US olympic sailing.jpg   56.68K   50 downloads

Nice chart - it tells the story.

I really wonder how Brenner can claim he "made progress?"

[bye bye]

 US olympic sailing.jpg   56.68K   50 downloads

Nice chart - it tells the story.

I really wonder how Brenner can claim he "made progress?"

It does. It tells more or less the same story Brenner did. That the USA has sucked at Olympic sailing since the mid '90s.

The year on year results look to show zero consistently an all and essentially a complete lack of a program (rather than individual efforts) geared to success. Once they stopped sailing keelboats at the Olympics and the rest of the world started putting proper programs together it looked like you were fuckoed.

[smackdaddy]

 US olympic sailing.jpg   56.68K   50 downloads

Nice chart - it tells the story.

I really wonder how Brenner can claim he "made progress?"

It does. It tells more or less the same story Brenner did. That the USA has sucked at Olympic sailing since the mid '90s.

Forget it ric. Do's rolling.

[cosmicsedso]

 US olympic sailing.jpg   56.68K   50 downloads

Nice chart - it tells the story.

I really wonder how Brenner can claim he "made progress?"

It does. It tells more or less the same story Brenner did. That the USA has sucked at Olympic sailing since the mid '90s.

Forget it ric. Do's rolling.

Hang in there guys.
We 'foreigners' know that tools like the Do Rag are not your average seppo.
But I actually like hearing from the fool because he makes me laugh.
Carry on.

[bye bye]

Always interesting to see how long you can keep Do at it... what you say DoRag?

[bheintz]

Enormously surprised DoRag has been conspicuous by his absence from this thread.
Too much truth here for you or what?
Carry on...

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:08 AM
Brenner has nothing to say other than proffer excuses. Others have a lot to say. Listen, you might learn something

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:01 PM
All I see are lame excuses and false claims of achievement, all clothed in the typical pedantic arrogance of US Sailing.

DoRage Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:41 PM
Let's debate the points I have made. Not who I am. Who I am is irrelevent.

It's a trypical (but amateurish) debate tactic to try and change the subject. The subject here is whether or not Brenner has been an absolute failure. That is the issue. There is no other.

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:29 PM
Typo, idiot.....

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:50 PM
Hard to see the progress there. Perhaps I need a microscope?

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:37 PM
just as every other US team measures results. you cannot blame teh dsailors

DoRag Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:59 AM
He failed. There is no way to spin that or to put the blame on others - kind of like trying to blame George W Bush.

DoRag Posted 24 August 2012 - 11:48 AM
DB has a man crush on Brenner.......

DoRag Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:52 PM
I always suspected that DB was a sock puppet for US Sailing.

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 10:55 AM
We all wish all the foreigners would go home. Those antics have destroyed the AC event.

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 08:21 PM
Smackdiddy has a man crush on Dean Brenner.....

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:34 PM
Typos, dork.

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:37 PM
That's your opinion. Now, tell us again what you have done for your country.....that will take a second.......

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:39 PM
Typos, dork. They have nothing to do with grammar.
Now, why don't you know that?

I am listening, what have I learned?

[DoRag]

Enormously surprised DoRag has been conspicuous by his absence from this thread.
Too much truth here for you or what?
Carry on...

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:08 AM
Brenner has nothing to say other than proffer excuses. Others have a lot to say. Listen, you might learn something

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:01 PM
All I see are lame excuses and false claims of achievement, all clothed in the typical pedantic arrogance of US Sailing.

DoRage Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:41 PM
Let's debate the points I have made. Not who I am. Who I am is irrelevent.

It's a trypical (but amateurish) debate tactic to try and change the subject. The subject here is whether or not Brenner has been an absolute failure. That is the issue. There is no other.

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:29 PM
Typo, idiot.....

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:50 PM
Hard to see the progress there. Perhaps I need a microscope?

DoRag Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:37 PM
just as every other US team measures results. you cannot blame teh dsailors

DoRag Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:59 AM
He failed. There is no way to spin that or to put the blame on others - kind of like trying to blame George W Bush.

DoRag Posted 24 August 2012 - 11:48 AM
DB has a man crush on Brenner.......

DoRag Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:52 PM
I always suspected that DB was a sock puppet for US Sailing.

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 10:55 AM
We all wish all the foreigners would go home. Those antics have destroyed the AC event.

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 08:21 PM
Smackdiddy has a man crush on Dean Brenner.....

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:34 PM
Typos, dork.

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:37 PM
That's your opinion. Now, tell us again what you have done for your country.....that will take a second.......

DoRag Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:39 PM
Typos, dork. They have nothing to do with grammar.
Now, why don't you know that?

I am listening, what have I learned?

You could have learned alot had you not taken those edits out of context.

[bheintz]

I am listening, what have I learned?

You could have learned alot had you not taken those edits out of context.

lol

[DoRag]

I am listening, what have I learned?

You could have learned alot had you not taken those edits out of context.

lol

Very thoughtful response.

[big chicken]

I don't have time to go back and read the 300 or so posts since I last checked this thread and don't know if Dean Brenner is still present but here's something I wondered about if it wasn't already asked of him. I see that 11 of the 12 Star boats that made the finals were built by one company in the USA. That sounds like they must have been building a pretty good product. The one boat that was not was used by the USA team. How come we weren't supporting our own?

[John Williams]

That seems like a question for the team, not Dean. For the PanAm Games and now for the upcoming quad, the multihull team was responsible for purchasing and maintaining the equipment. I never got any input or requirements from Dean or the coaches, other than to be compliant with the class rules. Two sides to that coin, one of which is that you're given complete latitude to make your own decisions.

[big chicken]

Interesting. Thanks for the insight. I would have expected the US Olympic sailing organization to have had more control than that. Guess I'm wrong.

[NorCalLaser]

not gonna go thru 300+ plus posts, but did Dean ever answer my question regarding keeping the athletes loose and de-pressured during the games? ie- what fun did they have?

[John Williams]

See post #177 in this thread for the answer on the team unwinding...

[NorCalLaser]

See post #177 in this thread for the answer on the team unwinding...

got it. thanks John

[SC Finnster]

Interesting from Scuttlebutt:
Re: [The Publisher] No medals for US Sailing Team at 2012 Games [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply We don't typically post information without attribution, but this info came from a respected coach - not working for the US team - who would not allow it. Given the choice of deleting it or sharing it, we chose the later:

When your rules are "go to Europe, get some top 50% results and we will give you money" (USST under Dean), you get trust fund babies on your team.

If your vision is "go out and find the top US sailors (junior and senior) and offer them money to race with great coaching (not the $350/day Euro coaches the USST paid this time) your base will expand.

If you are arrogant and want only your "team" to win the US Olympic Trials, you make it virtually impossible for anyone to qualify for the US Trials by making the qualifying 4 regattas, one in the US and the other 3 in Europe, after which the US Trials will consist of another regatta in Europe and one in Australia. In a Laser the overseas regattas are $15,000 each with a coach. Of course you fund your team so they win.

This is a lot different than the Sam Merrick way of being at all the regattas, visiting with each team, making them feel like they are all part of the big plan, and part of what helped the USA sailors win Medals. To make sure it is your team (Dean's), you cut down the amount of boats on the US Team from 5/class to 2/class, more exclusion.

The GBR program of finding junior talent, as Jim Saltenstall used to, develop it and send it to Europe to develop it more, allows you to plug a Hannah Mills into a 470 with Saskia Clark when Sarah Ayton dropped out in 2011 and still win a Medal.

The US Olympic Committee has to realize that Dean's plan got him a team who drank his Kool Aid, or they were cut off, but not a team which had any chance of winning, save Anna. To reach a goal you have to have a good plan, not a self serving one. The GBR plan is a good one, and it is not all about money.

People whine about GBR money, but GBR takes care of their resources. This is a business, winning Medals, and it has to be run correctly. The question is, who is running the show?? It is more than press releases. This is a top to bottom problem which has to change.

It is a joke to think that the Finn, 49er, Laser Radial, and Woman's 470 had a chance at a Medal. At the 2012 Worlds and Sail For Gold, Zach was 10-4 (Finn), Storck/Moore was 46? -12 (49er), Paige was 9-13? (Laser Radial), and Amanda never made the Medal Race at the 470 Worlds, ever.

Contrast Dean lamenting about the USA bad luck of more wind in the Finn regatta, and less wind in the W470, to the bad luck of the GBR Team in the Medal Race of the Star and M&W 470 losing Gold on the downwind of the poorly conceived Nothe Course.

Anna was the only one I thought had a chance, but she slipped in the past year as other countries received boats, and learned how to sail them.

This was not the sailor's fault, it was managements. Bad coaches and exclusivity cut out potential USA Olympians and doomed this Team.

[Moonduster]

DoRag,

You wrote "I really wonder how Brenner can claim he "made progress?".

What don't you understand? The chart shows definite progress - you just clearly don't understand Dean's goals. To me, they speak for themselves.

[Tcatman]

Interesting from Scuttlebutt:
Re: [The Publisher] No medals for US Sailing Team at 2012 Games [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply We don't typically post information without attribution, but this info came from a respected coach - not working for the US team - who would not allow it. Given the choice of deleting it or sharing it, we chose the later:

When your rules are "go to Europe, get some top 50% results and we will give you money" (USST under Dean), you get trust fund babies on your team.

Hmm.. You go to Europe to get your ass kicked and get better. Absolute requirement if you want to win.... AFAIK... this has been the case for 15 years.
So.... Rules or not.... you are going to Europe.
You get money if you do well in this system... .... gee.... incentives... this is america and the pot is limited.
Trust Fund Babies.... what a red herring... ahh.... if they are trust fund babies...they still have the cash to go.. In the past... Only guys who had competed in the Olympics got significant money... Trust fund babies or poor sailors also gave it their best shot.... .. the results speak...
What else would you suggest?

If your vision is "go out and find the top US sailors (junior and senior) and offer them money to race with great coaching (not the $350/day Euro coaches the USST paid this time) your base will expand.

What a self serving coach... He just wants a piece of the US fund and he was not picked as a coach.. EVERYBODY who takes a big picture look at the US System AGREES that finding Olympic level US Sailors is the problem BECUASE the entire US SAILING system and culture does not meet the needs for Olympic competition by generating enough talented prospects willing to commit for 8 years for one shot..


If you are arrogant and want only your "team" to win the US Olympic Trials, you make it virtually impossible for anyone to qualify for the US Trials by making the qualifying 4 regattas, one in the US and the other 3 in Europe, after which the US Trials will consist of another regatta in Europe and one in Australia. In a Laser the overseas regattas are $15,000 each with a coach. Of course you fund your team so they win.

Right... and the fact that the LAST US TRIALS selection only had two teams actually competing by match racing each other for the slot is not a problem?. Not to mention.... the general idea is that racing the best competition is the only way to measure your actual performance... Averaging the last three ISAF events seems reasonable (and how most of the world does it).... Arrogance is not the issue....


This is a lot different than the Sam Merrick way of being at all the regattas, visiting with each team, making them feel like they are all part of the big plan, and part of what helped the USA sailors win Medals. To make sure it is your team (Dean's), you cut down the amount of boats on the US Team from 5/class to 2/class, more exclusion.

Man... what a case of sour grapes... your boy did not make it.. The system did not prevent him from competing... talent etc did. I did not hear any body saying that the number two US Sailor would actually have done better in any class.... This is just a blind arrogance that US talent exists and they will catch fire in the last 4 months and beat the world.... The idea that the playing field was tilted against your boy is rubbish... Nothing would prevent him form doing it the old fashion way of raising his own money etc etc... IF HE GOT RESULTS... he would make the team.. (Hell you think the US Coaches were for shit anyway.).. Would a bigger pipeline help... absolutely. but you ACTUALLY need 20 US teams trying to fill 5 spots.....

There will always be a finite amount of money...and whether it's two or 3 or 4 or 5 ...there will always be sailors cut off from the USSA funds. /
The actual problem is the Fact of life... that you could not find 5 equally qualified sailors in each class... 8 years ago it was a joke in many classes.. So... whether it funds 5 pretenders or two sailors with prospects is a matter of judgement. No amount of encouragement is going to solve the problem...

the ISAF events are open... you could show up and win... and presto... you will be on the US Team.

The problem as I read in this thread... basically comes down to... you can't win.. starting Olympic level boats post college... the mountain is now too high....


The GBR program of finding junior talent, as Jim Saltenstall used to, develop it and send it to Europe to develop it more, allows you to plug a Hannah Mills into a 470 with Saskia Clark when Sarah Ayton dropped out in 2011 and still win a Medal.

And if someone had been injured... the US would have had a suitable replacement....



The US Olympic Committee has to realize that Dean's plan got him a team who drank his Kool Aid, or they were cut off, but not a team which had any chance of winning, save Anna. To reach a goal you have to have a good plan, not a self serving one. The GBR plan is a good one, and it is not all about money.

People whine about GBR money, but GBR takes care of their resources. This is a business, winning Medals, and it has to be run correctly. The question is, who is running the show?? It is more than press releases. This is a top to bottom problem which has to change.


No doubt... but.... the actual reality is best described as a North East College deciding that they are going to beat the SEC in football in 4 years... THE CULTURE OF FOOTBALL JUST DOES NOT EXIST in the North East... The Brits on the other hand have a very different sailing scene.... and their solution won't work for the US.


It is a joke to think that the Finn, 49er, Laser Radial, and Woman's 470 had a chance at a Medal. At the 2012 Worlds and Sail For Gold, Zach was 10-4 (Finn), Storck/Moore was 46? -12 (49er), Paige was 9-13? (Laser Radial), and Amanda never made the Medal Race at the 470 Worlds, ever.

Contrast Dean lamenting about the USA bad luck of more wind in the Finn regatta, and less wind in the W470, to the bad luck of the GBR Team in the Medal Race of the Star and M&W 470 losing Gold on the downwind of the poorly conceived Nothe Course.


WTF.... do you expect the team leader to handicap his sailors publiclly..... What would you do... he has ONE windsurfer in training from the last quad... She worked hard and the results are the result.... Do you see lots of windsurfers in this country???


Anna was the only one I thought had a chance, but she slipped in the past year as other countries received boats, and learned how to sail them.

This was not the sailor's fault, it was managements. Bad coaches and exclusivity cut out potential USA Olympians and doomed this Team.

Spoken From the point of view of a coach who was not selected or paid to coach....

What do you mean... it was not the sailors' fault.... OF COURSE IT IS THEIR FAULT.... I would use the word responsibilty... but you are dead set on finding a head to take....

Now... the reality may be the coaches were mediocre.... and the sailors were mediocre ....

Exclusivity is a symptom of the US Sailing scene... not a design feature of the system.

My critique of Dean's Leadership has always pointed to the disconnect between the Olympic sailors and related OD classes. I argued that you had no pipeline with this disconnect.... His argument was that Olympic sailing is so different that no synergy or value exists ... Olympic should leave the OD classes alone. Moreover, he would point to the successful medal winners like Johnie and Charlie from college dinghy's to Tornado silver for the coach em up strategy.

I think you have to evaluate... the coach em up strategy and ask... will this work? Since the OD class issues are unique to each class... I suspect that the evaluation panel will look for other solutions.

The problem is the culture of dinghy sailing at an elite level in the USA....

[fastyacht]

Dean, thanks for being upfront and honest. I have more of thought for the commission to think about. In 2008 I was at the Finn Trials, it was tough and difficult, but Zach went to another level after the second day and I felt that helped push him to that silver. The fear of not going to the Olympics I think would be better preparation then knowing you are going and hoping you do well. You have to prepare in advance to first make it. Most other sports (swimming, gymnastics, etc) have trials that make you be at your best to go. If you can't win here, you can't win there. I am not saying this will deliver Gold every single time, but it you know you got one shot to make it and you need to deliver or you go home, that makes people train harder. I use to always call the trials, the playoffs because you can be one and done if you have a bad day. The Olympics, that's your finals or super bowl.

Thanks for the note. We still do have a trials, we just did it differently this time. We chose international events over a lightly attended, domestic only regatta. I know lots of people like to point to the 2007 Finn Trials as a great example of what the Trials should be... and yes, that was a cool event. I loved seeing all the Finn activity created in SoCal. But I remain unconvinced that those Trials were any better of a selection process than using the 2011 Sail for Gold and Worlds events. The 2007 trials was well attended but not deep in serious Olympic talent. There were maybe three or four people who could have won that event, and in the end, Zach won fairly handily. It was a harder test for him and Caleb to have to compete for the Games spot while they were also still navigating a worlds-quality fleet.

I'm certain that this was the correct system. Perhaps the timing of the events, the gap between the events , etc deserves a look, and I 'm sure those decisions will get a close look. But we can't schedule the events. We choose from the menu of available events. We wanted the worlds, because, well, it's the worlds. And we wanted an event on the Olympic course.

Thanks.

Dean

Frankly, I've always been amazed that the U.S. was as successful as it was until recently. In my lifetime, the only Olympic boat with a sizeable vibrant U.S. fleet was the Star. The laser turns out to be nowhere near the Star in real numbers. Most lasers are dead or beachboats today. I'll bet there are more active thistle sailors than there are laser sailors. The number on the sail is meaningless in terms of participation in racing.

I suspect that demographis is the Tiger in this problem and that whatever USSailing does is really 3rd order after that. If you read "Saving Sailing" you will be astounded but not surprised. If you were born in the 60s as I was, you will very likely have a similar experience to me: as I grew up and looked around I wondered, "where did all the dinghy racing go?"

It isn't at all surprising that the U.S. is tanking. Sailing participation has fallen off a cliff, and the participation that remains is focused on keelboats--"sport" boats (such as the J this or Melges that) or "offshore" which isn't offshore at all in the real sense. SORC and all the other hugely attended events, and all those great Bermuda Races? Remember the John Biddle films? Those were the days.

Olympic sailing (with the exception of paralympics) is now *more* dinghy focused--next time not even the Star?! Of *course* we "sucked." It isn't rocket science and there is probably just as much evidence that you did more with these circumstances than less--it's just that people can't accept the reality of this change in sailing.

[couchsurfer]

..every time I see the title of this thread,
..I think it's some weird SA porn-video

[rgscpat]

So how do we get a hundred - or more - good young sailors on Olympic boats, and more on boats that would naturally lead up to the Olympic boats? In this country, I don't see that happening on the college sailing scene, so it would be up to yacht and sailing clubs to re-invent the dinghy sailing and racing scene and supporting youth. Is there any prospect of some clubs doing this?

[fastyacht]

So how do we get a hundred - or more - good young sailors on Olympic boats, and more on boats that would naturally lead up to the Olympic boats? In this country, I don't see that happening on the college sailing scene, so it would be up to yacht and sailing clubs to re-invent the dinghy sailing and racing scene and supporting youth. Is there any prospect of some clubs doing this?

It takes individuals with an interest in doing it. But there are some 'barriers".

470. Who would want to propose that boat today? Non-starter. If the class rules were changed to allow carbon/kevlar etc while keeping the same weight, then at least the boats would last.

49er. An "advanced" boat. Sadly, there seems to be limited appeal these days for "advanced" boats unless there is a chunk of lead attached to them.

BUT, dinghy sailing in general is down. All across the board. If you love dinghies, talk them up and do what you can to build interest. That's all we can do.

For my part, I encourage people to sail the 505. I take people out on mine. Son's friend jumped on with 15-18 knots of breeze on and I put him on the helm, we sailed out and then popped the chute. His reaction (priceless grin) was, "this boat is so fast!" That's what it takes: one on one networking, enthusiasm, and building from there. If you are a member of a club, do what you can to build enthusiasm in the club, for dinghy racing.

I'm not so sure that it is the olympic classes themselves per se that are so important. Looking back, we had success in the Soling and the 470 and the FD. But we also had lots more people sailing 505, fireball (junior boat in western LIS!) and lots of other boats. The soling wasn't so different from some other keelboats and so you could pull talent from them.

The problem in my mind is that today, there is almost no dinghy racing outside of the 4twinky and optimologist and collegiate. I think we still have a more vibrant dinghy culture in the middle of the country. My experience in the midwest in the 90s was that there was much more interest in racing dinghies on all the lakes, than there was in places like Annapols. It struck me that while you have SSA in Annapolis, you don't have much else, for dinghies. In the midwest, even the smallest little puddle has a fleet of Snipes or Thistles or Flying Scots or Windmills, or Interlakes or Yflyers or or or and even many of these classes. I haven't been out there since 93. Maybe the bottom has dropped out there too.

Let's look at what is hot right now in the East. Viper 640. We cross tacks with them in the 505. Ironically they will be the largest class at the HPDO this year--and they aren't dinghies--they have 395 pounds of lead on the end of a stick. I personally find them much more interesting than a Melges 24 or a J80 or any of those other "sport" boats with a stupid little trunk cabin. Is the Viper actually encouragement that dinghies could come back? Are they attracting otherwise "big" boat sailors to come sail small boats? Or are they fed by the erstwhile dinghy fleets? Either way, are they moving in the "right" direction? Perhaps.

In the end, it really comes back to small choices made by many individuals. It comes back to mentoring (to borrow from Nick Hayes' "Saving Sailing").

Is there another angle to this? My former boss thinks so. What is it about racing that we feel is worthwhile? As opposed to simply sailing. How do we serve newcomers who come into the sport? If we do that in dinghies, is it a different experience than big boats? (Yes, of course). Do we fail to encourage interest in racing? (Yes.) Why? (Many reasons)....

[Tcatman]

So how do we get a hundred - or more - good young sailors on Olympic boats, and more on boats that would naturally lead up to the Olympic boats? In this country, I don't see that happening on the college sailing scene, so it would be up to yacht and sailing clubs to re-invent the dinghy sailing and racing scene and supporting youth. Is there any prospect of some clubs doing this?

It takes individuals with an interest in doing it. But there are some 'barriers".

....

Is there another angle to this? My former boss thinks so. What is it about racing that we feel is worthwhile? As opposed to simply sailing. How do we serve newcomers who come into the sport? If we do that in dinghies, is it a different experience than big boats? (Yes, of course). Do we fail to encourage interest in racing? (Yes.) Why? (Many reasons)....

New York Times today... re Tennis pipeline

The United States is suffering the consequences of leaning on a model that often limits tennis to those who can afford it. The solution would be using the public school system to widen the talent pool.

So.... Soccer, Tennis, Sailing.... All have discovered that the "coach em up" arrogance of the USA does not generate elite competitors.... Tennis has developed youth training programs at a couple of US locations. Soccer has elite development teams apart from the High school/college path.

What is the right way forward for the USA?

[fastyacht]

So how do we get a hundred - or more - good young sailors on Olympic boats, and more on boats that would naturally lead up to the Olympic boats? In this country, I don't see that happening on the college sailing scene, so it would be up to yacht and sailing clubs to re-invent the dinghy sailing and racing scene and supporting youth. Is there any prospect of some clubs doing this?

It takes individuals with an interest in doing it. But there are some 'barriers".

....

Is there another angle to this? My former boss thinks so. What is it about racing that we feel is worthwhile? As opposed to simply sailing. How do we serve newcomers who come into the sport? If we do that in dinghies, is it a different experience than big boats? (Yes, of course). Do we fail to encourage interest in racing? (Yes.) Why? (Many reasons)....

New York Times today... re Tennis pipeline

The United States is suffering the consequences of leaning on a model that often limits tennis to those who can afford it. The solution would be using the public school system to widen the talent pool.

So.... Soccer, Tennis, Sailing.... All have discovered that the "coach em up" arrogance of the USA does not generate elite competitors.... Tennis has developed youth training programs at a couple of US locations. Soccer has elite development teams apart from the High school/college path.

What is the right way forward for the USA?

All three sports perhaps show what *not* to do if the "goal" is international victory. Soccer is the number 1 participatory sport in the US (for boys no less!) and has been for years and years. Our men's olympic team didn't even qualify for the olympics.

I read the tennis article. Funny how it mentioned Agassi but didn't mention that his entire training was through the "elite camp" stuff. I don't know enough about McEnroe or Connors. For me ,the great champions are still Jack Kramer, Stan Smith and Rod Laver. And Billie Jean King. :-)