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55ft Ketch "Red Herring"


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#1 Bill E Goat

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:57 AM

Does anyone have more info on the Red Hereing - looks like a boat ahead of its time

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#2 Slowboat

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:11 AM

Neat looking boat! I wonder if it's a Ray Hunt design?

#3 @last

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:13 AM

I believe it was built in green lake, wisconsin ages ago by Joe Norton but I could be all wrong on that. Forgot who the designer was.

#4 Slowboat

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:15 AM

From a thread in CA:



Kim, this was on the front page and made me think of Sliver. You probably know of her but for those of us who hadn't she was designed by the same guy who was involved in C class wing rigs, the Cat Stars n Stripes and Dogzillas wing, Dave Hubbard.

Launched in the 80's, cold molded with a canting keel and dagger boards. Probably hard to get in her groove but definitely there in this pic and the old girl has them pinned on starboard.

It would be really interesting to compare the two on the water. Different philosophies with similar goals, ground breaking ideas back then verses intelligent design and uses of modern materials, both with cute bums.



#5 Amati

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:08 AM

Steve Clark has her now? Hubbard had a hand in her, iirr.

#6 Foghorn77

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:19 AM

Steve can definitely give you the scoop on her. Maybe he'll come along.

#7 Timbo

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:36 AM

I seem to recall it was Hubbard and Van Allen Clark who 1st launched her in the early 80's. One of the 1st canters, winch powered. I think originaly she was a schooner with rotating full batten rigs..

#8 Murphness

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:49 AM

Was racing against her Friday. I've never seen a boat sail upwind like Red Herring...absolutely killing it. Made us pretty jealous starting out with a 30 mile beat on the cone!

#9 CarlC

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:12 PM

She was built by Eric Goetz in 1980, quod the Register of Wooden Boats.

Fabulous boat.

#10 Steve Clark

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:36 PM

Red Herring is my boat!
She was built in 1980 by Goetz Custom (Hull 22) and was the last "solid wood" boat they built.
She is cold mold cedar on stringers and frames.
The keel can be canted and lifted, but not at the same time.
She is 55'long, 8'3" wide and weighs 9500 lbs.
Those of you keeping score at home will recognize that this gives her a displacement length ratio of about 27, which isn't just light, it's super fucking light.
She draws 9' with the keel down and 6' with it pulled up.
We leave it down most of the time.
The keel can be canted 35 degrees, this is done with hydraulics driven by an electric pump with two huge gel cell bater8es. We can sail for just over 24 hours before recharging.
Fastest we have ever gone is 20 knots. It was 0DARK30 during a Solo/Twin when Lars said "Too bad we can't do this when it's light." I replied," If we could see, we would be too frightened and would stop."

Red Herring was designed by David Hubbard. The concept was all Van Alan Clark Jr. He got the germ of the idea from L. Francis Herreshoff's "sailing machine" in the Common Sense of yacht design, but quickly identified the flaws in Herreshoff's proposal and identified a way to address it. As Dave succinctly put it: to segregate the righting moment and lateral resistance functions of the keel into two appendages. Thus she has a strut with ballast on it to keep her upright and a daggerboard to keep her from sliding sideways.

When I was a kid, Dad and I talked about boats all the time. When you have a number of kids ( I'm #4 of 6) you have special things you share with each kid. I was Dad's "boat kid." He drew on the back of paper place mats at Howard Johnson's when we were stopping for a hot dog. As often as not, it as something that would eventually turn into Red Herring. When I brought home my first International Canoe, he went for a short sail and said "That's it. I'm building the skinny boat."

As originally launched she was a cat ketch with rotating masts and fully battened sails. She had two two centerboards a keel and a rudder. Keel canting was done by winches attached to massive 6:1 block and tackles, and she really didn't work so well. Unfortunately my dad died in 1983 so he never really got to do much in terms of refining the concept. We knew it worked, but really didn't know how well. After Dad died, Dave had her for a few years, and I took possession sometime around 1988. I have been nibbling away at it ever since.
I redesigned the sail plan. Moved the main aft 30" to bring jibs aboard, and a mast head asymmetrical. After a very loud and expensive noise, had GMT make some very nice light carbon masts to replace the heavy aluminum rotating spars.
Next I decided the centerboards were too small, and so installed a deep canard daggerboard. The keel was originally a wood/ composite blade with a fairly low aspect ratio bulb, when I decided I didn't trust it anymore, I had Duncan MacLane and Paul Bogatai design a good one that was machined out of steel with a modern looking bulb. Finally this year, the rudder was upgraded from something that looked OK in the 1970s to a deeper hotter shit blade with a carbon [post that weighs about 1/2 of what the old blade did.
On board accommodation has never been a big feature of the Red Herring experience. Her cross section is a bit smaller than a
J24, so that's about what you get, stretched out a bit. There is a head with a door, but if you are my size, it's a challenge to wipe with the door closed. On the other hand, there is a stove with an oven, which makes hot coffee cake and danishes possible, which is about as civilized as it gets. You cannot stand up in the saloon except in the hatch. There is a nice aft berth under the mizzen, but you can't sit up anywhere except under the hatch. Ezra Smith and I designed some sea hoods this year to make her a bit more habitable in the rain and Blizo and the team at Aquidneck Custom did a wonderful job of fabricating them as well as the new coamings that make it all work as part of our 30 year refit.

On Friday she was sliding along very nicely until the jib blew up. Which means that sailed most of the long beat with the Spandex 130. Not really a jib that goes upwind very well, being too big for the breeze and too stretchy and impossible to sheet in all the way because of the cap shrouds. But what the hell, there are lots worse ways to spend TGIF time.
Red Herring is more of a reaching monster than an upwind device. Usually 40' sloops kick us around uphill, but we get them back the second we can start the sheets a bit. If the wind goes further aft, and we have to really run square, we get crushed again. The only races that are any fun on this boat are ones where there are opportunities for odd angles that modern racing sloops aren't optimal for. Herring has a PHRF rating of -3. On balance I would say that is fair, Once I do the next round of sails, it will probably be lower. I don't really care, the only reason to have a rating is so I can see if any of the changes we make are making the boat faster or slower, and the only way to do that is to race it now and then.

So yeah, she was way ahead of her time, but has been eclipsed by the modern canting keel boats. On the other hand, Dad thought this was the better formula for sailboats, and the performance of the Volvo 70s and others simply confirms that he sure was right about that. Sailing her is one way I remember my old man.
SHC

#11 Foghorn77

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:04 PM

Very Cool. Thanks Steve.

#12 Trickypig

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:31 PM

Thanks Steve,

very cool.. any chance you could post a few pics?

#13 Murphness

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:51 PM

Great story! lots of close reaching after the wind shifted too! Sorry about the jib! At least it wasn't a brand new 3dl main! Someone blew one up before the start, couldn't make out which boat it was though, maybe the Trip? Looked like they caught the top batten in the backstay and it ripped horizontally...

#14 Steve Clark

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:36 PM

In the slings
Attached File  red herring in slings.jpg   123.91K   776 downloads
Pretty good view of the hull shape and the keel and rudder.
The daggerboard is not in because we keep it out of the trunk except when sailing just to keep it slime free.
Sliding dodgers/ Sea hoods visible as well. Allows you to stand up in the saloon, and wash the dishes.
Also allows sailing with some version of ventilation below.

And afloat:
Attached File  On the mooring.JPG   440.52K   705 downloads
"Not much meat on her, but what there is is choice"
- Spencer Tracy on Katherine Hepburn

SHC

#15 CarlC

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:39 PM

Steve -- She's looking great.

I'm borrowing this for My Wooden Boat of the Week tomorrow.

Best to you, Carl

In the slings
Attached File  red herring in slings.jpg   123.91K   776 downloads
Pretty good view of the hull shape and the keel and rudder.
The daggerboard is not in because we keep it out of the trunk except when sailing just to keep it slime free.
Sliding dodgers/ Sea hoods visible as well. Allows you to stand up in the saloon, and wash the dishes.
Also allows sailing with some version of ventilation below.

And afloat:
Attached File  On the mooring.JPG   440.52K   705 downloads
"Not much meat on her, but what there is is choice"
- Spencer Tracy on Katherine Hepburn

SHC



#16 hobot

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:01 PM

Holy s**t thats a cool boat.

Steve, whats it like to have an ear to ear paralyzed grin on your face every time you row away from her?

#17 Presuming Ed

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:48 PM

You cannot stand up in the saloon except in the hatch.


Uffa Fox: "If you want to stand up, go on deck".

#18 Icedtea

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:48 AM

Jesus that thing is seriously nice, still looks like it just rolled out of the shed!

#19 Paps

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:09 AM

Great info Steve, thank you.

You guys might find this thread in CA interesting. A Bob Perry design currently in build in the PNW at the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding. Very similar concept with some refinements and a bit more volume but not a canter.

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=120050

#20 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:34 AM

for anyone that can remember the earlier batch of RTW singlehanders it's not that odd looking

( before the huge fatass O-60s, skinny and yawls / ketches were 'in there'

#21 Damp Freddie

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:35 PM

Wicked Boat Steve

Even littler' lill' red sledge!

#22 Tom Ray

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:56 PM

Steve -- She's looking great.

I'm borrowing this for My Wooden Boat of the Week tomorrow.

Best to you, Carl


In the slings
Attached File  red herring in slings.jpg   123.91K   776 downloads
Pretty good view of the hull shape and the keel and rudder.
The daggerboard is not in because we keep it out of the trunk except when sailing just to keep it slime free.
Sliding dodgers/ Sea hoods visible as well. Allows you to stand up in the saloon, and wash the dishes.
Also allows sailing with some version of ventilation below.

And afloat:
Attached File  On the mooring.JPG   440.52K   705 downloads
"Not much meat on her, but what there is is choice"
- Spencer Tracy on Katherine Hepburn

SHC


And here it is:

http://boats.woodenboat.com/?p=3038

If you don't follow woodenboat on Facebook you are depriving yourself of a great daily dose of boat porn.

#23 Alden Bugly

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:43 PM

You cannot stand up in the saloon except in the hatch.


Uffa Fox: "If you want to stand up, go on deck".


And..."The only reason you need standing headroom in a boat is if you sleep standing up or you're going to dance." A Herrishoff, I think.

#24 couchsurfer

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:28 PM

good it's a distinctive(?) color or some bowman's going t'spot the rig-height and not realize it's 20' longer than it 'should' be :wacko:

#25 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:46 PM

Steve, three summers ago (I think) you sailed her into the NYYC Harbor Court buoy field. I was the guy who swam out and said "hi", leaving my tie, jacket and pants on the dock. She is BEAUTIFUL! You make my boat look fat! Beau

#26 DoRag

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:48 PM

Steve, three summers ago (I think) you sailed her into the NYYC Harbor Court buoy field. I was the guy who swam out and said "hi", leaving my tie, jacket and pants on the dock. She is BEAUTIFUL! You make my boat look fat! Beau


Thanks for sharing that.

#27 mustang__1

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM

Red Herring is my boat!
She was built in 1980 by Goetz Custom (Hull 22) and was the last "solid wood" boat they built.
She is cold mold cedar on stringers and frames.
The keel can be canted and lifted, but not at the same time.
She is 55'long, 8'3" wide and weighs 9500 lbs.
Those of you keeping score at home will recognize that this gives her a displacement length ratio of about 27, which isn't just light, it's super fucking light.
She draws 9' with the keel down and 6' with it pulled up.
We leave it down most of the time.
The keel can be canted 35 degrees, this is done with hydraulics driven by an electric pump with two huge gel cell bater8es. We can sail for just over 24 hours before recharging.
Fastest we have ever gone is 20 knots. It was 0DARK30 during a Solo/Twin when Lars said "Too bad we can't do this when it's light." I replied," If we could see, we would be too frightened and would stop."

Red Herring was designed by David Hubbard. The concept was all Van Alan Clark Jr. He got the germ of the idea from L. Francis Herreshoff's "sailing machine" in the Common Sense of yacht design, but quickly identified the flaws in Herreshoff's proposal and identified a way to address it. As Dave succinctly put it: to segregate the righting moment and lateral resistance functions of the keel into two appendages. Thus she has a strut with ballast on it to keep her upright and a daggerboard to keep her from sliding sideways.

When I was a kid, Dad and I talked about boats all the time. When you have a number of kids ( I'm #4 of 6) you have special things you share with each kid. I was Dad's "boat kid." He drew on the back of paper place mats at Howard Johnson's when we were stopping for a hot dog. As often as not, it as something that would eventually turn into Red Herring. When I brought home my first International Canoe, he went for a short sail and said "That's it. I'm building the skinny boat."

As originally launched she was a cat ketch with rotating masts and fully battened sails. She had two two centerboards a keel and a rudder. Keel canting was done by winches attached to massive 6:1 block and tackles, and she really didn't work so well. Unfortunately my dad died in 1983 so he never really got to do much in terms of refining the concept. We knew it worked, but really didn't know how well. After Dad died, Dave had her for a few years, and I took possession sometime around 1988. I have been nibbling away at it ever since.
I redesigned the sail plan. Moved the main aft 30" to bring jibs aboard, and a mast head asymmetrical. After a very loud and expensive noise, had GMT make some very nice light carbon masts to replace the heavy aluminum rotating spars.
Next I decided the centerboards were too small, and so installed a deep canard daggerboard. The keel was originally a wood/ composite blade with a fairly low aspect ratio bulb, when I decided I didn't trust it anymore, I had Duncan MacLane and Paul Bogatai design a good one that was machined out of steel with a modern looking bulb. Finally this year, the rudder was upgraded from something that looked OK in the 1970s to a deeper hotter shit blade with a carbon [post that weighs about 1/2 of what the old blade did.
On board accommodation has never been a big feature of the Red Herring experience. Her cross section is a bit smaller than a
J24, so that's about what you get, stretched out a bit. There is a head with a door, but if you are my size, it's a challenge to wipe with the door closed. On the other hand, there is a stove with an oven, which makes hot coffee cake and danishes possible, which is about as civilized as it gets. You cannot stand up in the saloon except in the hatch. There is a nice aft berth under the mizzen, but you can't sit up anywhere except under the hatch. Ezra Smith and I designed some sea hoods this year to make her a bit more habitable in the rain and Blizo and the team at Aquidneck Custom did a wonderful job of fabricating them as well as the new coamings that make it all work as part of our 30 year refit.

On Friday she was sliding along very nicely until the jib blew up. Which means that sailed most of the long beat with the Spandex 130. Not really a jib that goes upwind very well, being too big for the breeze and too stretchy and impossible to sheet in all the way because of the cap shrouds. But what the hell, there are lots worse ways to spend TGIF time.
Red Herring is more of a reaching monster than an upwind device. Usually 40' sloops kick us around uphill, but we get them back the second we can start the sheets a bit. If the wind goes further aft, and we have to really run square, we get crushed again. The only races that are any fun on this boat are ones where there are opportunities for odd angles that modern racing sloops aren't optimal for. Herring has a PHRF rating of -3. On balance I would say that is fair, Once I do the next round of sails, it will probably be lower. I don't really care, the only reason to have a rating is so I can see if any of the changes we make are making the boat faster or slower, and the only way to do that is to race it now and then.

So yeah, she was way ahead of her time, but has been eclipsed by the modern canting keel boats. On the other hand, Dad thought this was the better formula for sailboats, and the performance of the Volvo 70s and others simply confirms that he sure was right about that. Sailing her is one way I remember my old man.
SHC


so you're saying you had a CBTF boat before doug lord's toy boats had one?...

#28 multisail

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:07 PM

Good evening,
I have just hauled out a copy of SAIL, January 1981, where there was a one and a half page feature on the boat. The main article was called "The Shape of Sail to Come".

SAIL said "she opens a whole new vision of how Mom and Pop might spend their weekends".
I quote Clark's comments from the article, "I've always said with the same pile of timber I'd build a better boat". He was refering to trimarans.
Further, "Designer Dave Hubbard, whose Patient Lady catamrans have won three Little America's Cups, refined Clark's ideas".

My scanning skills prevents me from posting the full article.

All in all a stunning looking boat.

Regards,
Multisail.

#29 waterborne

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:05 AM

Red Herring is a great looking boat, looks really fast and would be a ton of fun to sail.

Also inspired by L. Francis Herreshoff was the 45' "canting keel" yacht designed and built by Jim Young (New Zealand) in the late 1950s. You can read about it here.

http://www.sail-worl...d=0&tickerCID=0

Great to see !!

#30 razorback

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:24 AM

Steve,
I remember seeing the lines for RH in a magazine as a kid/teen and thinking "that's it. This Hubbard guy has it all figured out and that is what a sailboat should be.". In roughly 40 years of amateur boat design fandom, nothing has ever shook me like your boat did. I hope to shake your hand and see the legend in person someday. Congrats man, that is beyond cool. Take good care.

Edit: I think Multisail was looking at the article I remember.

#31 coxcreek

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:49 AM

Magnificent Red Herring, enlightened outside the box thinking ... but sorry to spoil the fun because here is the original that inspired the boat, Jim Young's Herreshoff based (but Jim altered) with wider beam, Fiery Cross, launched in Auckland in 1959. Here's a quote from the forthcoming book on Jim Young:
"Fiery Cross was/is the only double ender of that length, 45 feet that I know of. The ability to sail to windward is related to power. Long and skinny is more related to high maximum speeds and very few boats sail at maximum speeds, and very few can sail at maximum hull speeds up wind; that is a real challenge for a designer. The America’s Cup monohulls can achieve this because about 80% of their weight is in ballast and that gives them so much power that they can sail to windward at hull speed, about 11 knots. But some beamy boats can do this too even though they produce more drag. Their wide beam gives them stability and therefore the power to drive up to hull speed. Fiery Cross could exceed displacement speeds and she was sufficiently fine in the ends for the waves not to hold her back, not like Freya, which was a beautiful hull but all that beauty was to no avail. There were a lot of advantages in having a narrow boat like Fiery Cross. She had a sliding window by the galley so you could just empty the teapot over the side.
In L. Frances Herreshoff’s book Common Sense of Yacht Design, he advocated the system of canting the keel to windward to get the stability of a beamy boat, but in a narrow hull and without the drag of wide beam. I thought that a great idea. It would add greatly to the sensation of sailing, great for cruising or reaching up to Kawau Island and up the northern coast. So I built her with that set-up in mind and you can see in the photograph of the hull being turned over of a hollow where the keel fin was recessed. I knew that if you wanted speed then the boat would have to be long. And to keep costs down the hull would have to be narrow, plus having light gear with a light rig and everything else light and inexpensive. And the type of hull itself was the same as Herreschoff had advocated in his book, a double ended hull. I had some correspondence with him because the boat he drew was the same length, 45 feet, but had only 6 foot (13.7 x 1.8 m) beam with 6.5 foot (2 m) draught. And I wanted to make this boat 7 foot (2.13 m) beam and so I wrote to him saying I was interested in his ideas but wanted to increase beam and asked him what he thought of that. He was full of enthusiasm and pleased to see someone carry out his ideas."

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#32 gazzabo

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:26 AM

Well, well, there I am in the above foto rowing out to Fiery Cross! And Steve we have met thru Wayne Wilbur down the other end of the Kikimuit....
I have lotsa fotos if anyone interested.
Hi Gary of Cox's Creek.....

#33 STYACHT

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:34 AM

Steve,
nice piece of kit that boat. So cool that it honors your dad to sail her. DLR 27 is remarkable. Really amazing.

#34 Tom Ray

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:59 AM

Red Herring is my boat!
She was built in 1980 by Goetz Custom (Hull 22) and was the last "solid wood" boat they built.
She is cold mold cedar on stringers and frames.
The keel can be canted and lifted, but not at the same time.
She is 55'long, 8'3" wide and weighs 9500 lbs.
Those of you keeping score at home will recognize that this gives her a displacement length ratio of about 27, which isn't just light, it's super fucking light.
She draws 9' with the keel down and 6' with it pulled up.
We leave it down most of the time.
The keel can be canted 35 degrees, this is done with hydraulics driven by an electric pump with two huge gel cell bater8es. We can sail for just over 24 hours before recharging.
Fastest we have ever gone is 20 knots....


55' by 8'3"?

Magnificent Red Herring, enlightened outside the box thinking ... but sorry to spoil the fun because here is the original that inspired the boat, Jim Young's Herreshoff based (but Jim altered) with wider beam, Fiery Cross, launched in Auckland in 1959. Here's a quote from the forthcoming book on Jim Young:
"Fiery Cross was/is the only double ender of that length, 45 feet that I know of. ...

the type of hull itself was the same as Herreschoff had advocated in his book, a double ended hull. I had some correspondence with him because the boat he drew was the same length, 45 feet, but had only 6 foot (13.7 x 1.8 m) beam with 6.5 foot (2 m) draught. And I wanted to make this boat 7 foot (2.13 m) beam and so I wrote to him saying I was interested in his ideas but wanted to increase beam and asked him what he thought of that. He was full of enthusiasm and pleased to see someone carry out his ideas."


And 45' by 7', but Herreschoff originally thought 6' a better idea?

It's hard to imagine being on a 45 footer at the widest point and being able to touch both sides at once.

#35 MacGregor_Lover

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:08 AM

Very cool thanks for sharing Steve.

#36 eliboat

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:06 PM

Posted ImageWell, sure he had the canting keel part... but I hate to spoil your fun because Sydney Herreshoff (brother of Francis), had Jim Young beat by 8 years with the long skinny canoe hull. Despite him saying that he had never known of a boat that resembled Fiery Cross as far as hull form is concerned, it is very hard to believe that he had not seen Arion given the striking resemblance and his obvious knowledge of the Herreshoffs... One thing is for sure, Young definitely made the stern of Fiery Cross a facsimile of the Rozinante.
Posted Image

Magnificent Red Herring, enlightened outside the box thinking ... but sorry to spoil the fun because here is the original that inspired the boat, Jim Young's Herreshoff based (but Jim altered) with wider beam, Fiery Cross, launched in Auckland in 1959. Here's a quote from the forthcoming book on Jim Young:
"Fiery Cross was/is the only double ender of that length, 45 feet that I know of. The ability to sail to windward is related to power. Long and skinny is more related to high maximum speeds and very few boats sail at maximum speeds, and very few can sail at maximum hull speeds up wind; that is a real challenge for a designer. The America’s Cup monohulls can achieve this because about 80% of their weight is in ballast and that gives them so much power that they can sail to windward at hull speed, about 11 knots. But some beamy boats can do this too even though they produce more drag. Their wide beam gives them stability and therefore the power to drive up to hull speed. Fiery Cross could exceed displacement speeds and she was sufficiently fine in the ends for the waves not to hold her back, not like Freya, which was a beautiful hull but all that beauty was to no avail. There were a lot of advantages in having a narrow boat like Fiery Cross. She had a sliding window by the galley so you could just empty the teapot over the side.
In L. Frances Herreshoff’s book Common Sense of Yacht Design, he advocated the system of canting the keel to windward to get the stability of a beamy boat, but in a narrow hull and without the drag of wide beam. I thought that a great idea. It would add greatly to the sensation of sailing, great for cruising or reaching up to Kawau Island and up the northern coast. So I built her with that set-up in mind and you can see in the photograph of the hull being turned over of a hollow where the keel fin was recessed. I knew that if you wanted speed then the boat would have to be long. And to keep costs down the hull would have to be narrow, plus having light gear with a light rig and everything else light and inexpensive. And the type of hull itself was the same as Herreschoff had advocated in his book, a double ended hull. I had some correspondence with him because the boat he drew was the same length, 45 feet, but had only 6 foot (13.7 x 1.8 m) beam with 6.5 foot (2 m) draught. And I wanted to make this boat 7 foot (2.13 m) beam and so I wrote to him saying I was interested in his ideas but wanted to increase beam and asked him what he thought of that. He was full of enthusiasm and pleased to see someone carry out his ideas."



#37 Tucky

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:37 PM

And worth mentioning that Arion was the first fiberglass sailboat auxiliary according to-

http://www.dmcboats....takingshape.htm

#38 Steve Adolph

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:02 PM

"Sailing her is one way I remember my old man."

Sold. I'm going to rebuild my dad's quarter tonner. Thanks for the nudge Steve.

cheers, Steve.

#39 Steve Clark

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:28 PM

I know about Fiery Cross. Nothing I wrote was intended to eclipse the import of Jim Young's pioneering boat.
There is nothing unusual about long skinny boats, and you are going to go a long way back in time before anyone can claim to be "the first" because logs are fundamentally long and skinny. The deal is that ,"all things being equal" the additional sail carrying power of beam and ballast more or less equals the drag caused by beam and ballast. And if you look at it squarely, most keel boats sail about the same. To do better, you have to break some of the connections. This is what the canting keel does, it gives a narrow light boat the righting moment of a heavier wider boat without the drag associated with beam and ballast. Red Herring looks awfully narrow and clean, but what you don't see is the quivallent of 20 guys my size hanging from trapezes on the weather rail.

I had seen some pictures of Fiery Cross and understood her to be a pretty fair representation of the boat that LFH included in the Common Sense of Yacht Design. I also understood that the experiment was somewhat of bust and that she spent most of her years sailing "un-canted." As something of a curate of all things canting, I would love to see or have more images of the boat and reports of her sailing.
Is she still in one piece? that her in the background of the photo?

Over the years as Dad talked to people about the idea, the objection was pretty much always the same. with the keel canted, the boat will have little or no lateral plane and will not sail very well. Keeping the foils vertical is as important as keeping the rig vertical.
Dad understood this and therefore included centerboards in the design to provide the necessary side force. In his early sketches, these were usually asymmetric bilge boards, not entirely dissimilar to what is found on V-70s. I think Dave talked him off that ledge by suggesting that SOMETHING had to stay put from tack to tack. So it's the shifting ballast AND the centerboards that make Red Herring original
SHC.

#40 By the lee

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 04:49 PM

One of the more interesting articles from the front page - more please............. :)

#41 Great Red Shark

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:29 PM

Steve, it sounds to me like that would be clear 'prior art' to the CBTF patents by Dynayacht, no ?

I remember visiting the Dynayacht offices in a San Diego boatyard in the early 90s and seeing the the print material of thier trial-horses, I think they had a pair of tall-rig Catalina 27s (one modded) sailing side-by-side as 'proof of concept' after they'd done a Soling or something like that as an engineering exercise. Am I remembering that all wrong ?

Dig the RH story, guess I'm just a sucker for skinny boats.

#42 Steve Clark

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:30 PM

In my opinion the CBTF patent was flawed, but as these things inevitably happen, granted anyway.
Red Herring clearly existed before the CBTF patent was authored, but critically Alberto Calderon did not understand how Red Herring was configured and thus believed he was more original than he in fact was.This is akin to me making broad claims about the originality of Red Herring without acknowledging L.Francis and Jim Young.
The proportional relationship between the canard and aft rudder of the CBTF program is very tricky and was hard to figure out. This clearly is CBTF intellectual property. But the patent was written such that any control of the lift or angle of attack, linked (or un-linked) of both the canard and aft foils requires a license from CBTF. In my view this claim reaches too far.

Legally:
As she currently sits, Herring does not violate the patent, because the canard is a simple daggerboard.
However if I were to add a trim tab to the forward daggerboard, or arrange for it to gybe, I would need to pay a license fee to CBTF. This pisses me off. and while either gybing or flapping the canard is a sensible thing to consider because the boat is still kind of starved for side force, I'll be goddamned if I'm going to pay for the right to do it to a boat that existed before the patent was granted. But then again, there are lots of other things to get worked up about, and this one really is at the buzzing fly level of annoyance.
SHC

#43 Great Red Shark

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:12 PM

Thanks Steve. I just LOVE that the orginal configuration was twin assym boards, you know, like the latest canters have come around to.

So far ahead of her time they couldn't even see it from there. I bet your dad was considered crazy by many at the time.

"A keel that swings athwartship ? That's crazy-talk. They'll ALL be killed." and any 'serious' racing-rating at the time would have been impossible to consider - everybody 'knew' that real race boats were IOR shaped :rolleyes:

#44 TSweather

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:18 PM

Appreciate the full story behind the design. As someone who grew up as a junior sailor out of Bristol, it always held its own potential energy just sitting on the mooring looking fast. Good to see so many of the Bristol homies mentioned in the write up.

#45 Steve Clark

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:50 PM

Thanks Steve. I just LOVE that the orginal configuration was twin assym boards, you know, like the latest canters have come around to.

So far ahead of her time they couldn't even see it from there. I bet your dad was considered crazy by many at the time.

"A keel that swings athwartship ? That's crazy-talk. They'll ALL be killed." and any 'serious' racing-rating at the time would have been impossible to consider - everybody 'knew' that real race boats were IOR shaped :rolleyes:

When she was built, there wasn't a single racing rule restriction that she didn't in some way violate.
Full Battens, Rotating spars, Shifting Ballast, Stored Energy etc.
The guys at Goetz thought it was so cool that someone would build a boat like that, Dad became kind of a favorite customer.
He was also a really nice guy.
SHC

#46 hyderally

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 09:06 PM

Steve - I would expect nothing else than your clear explanation of the whole concept and history. I am really glad that you have her now. I remember when she was built and being a skinny boat lover, wondered what happened to her. Profile and slim waist is 210ish. The whole program seems canoeish.
Best,

TP

#47 STYACHT

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 09:57 PM

...When she was built, there wasn't a single racing rule restriction that she didn't in some way violate.
Full Battens, Rotating spars, Shifting Ballast, Stored Energy etc.
...


Love it

Ps when does the patent run out?

#48 laserandy

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:00 PM

I remember Red Herring hanging on a mooring inside Ram Island about 20 years ago. I sailed by her every day for several months, just staring. Couldn't take my eyes off her.

Looked space age and like a million bucks then, looks space age and like a million bucks now.

Absolutely timeless.

Thanks for the flashback!

#49 coxcreek

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:18 PM

This has become a fascinating thread. I can't speak for Jim but you are probably right, Eliboat, in that he may have known about Arion and Rozinante; I'll ask him next time I see him. However when he built Fiery Cross, he began construction in 1954 - anyway here are some more quotes and images:

"I built Fiery Cross using double diagonal on stringers but because she was a long boat and I was working on her on my own during spare time, I couldn’t handle long planks. This was the time when reliable, synthetic, totally waterproof glues had recently become available. I got advice from the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, which was headed by Jack Brook, a yacht designer in his own right. He advised me the only reliable glue was Aerodux Resorcinol Urea, a sort of purple coloured glue. And so we used to go through drums of the stuff. And I built Fiery Cross using that method, double diagonal so I only needed to use short planks and thin wood – which made it easier. But I made two mistakes, not serious but silly mistakes. The stringers I gathered together at the bow and stern so around the middle of the boat, they were spread quite well apart - and at the bow and the stern they were far too close. I should have made them parallel to the sheer all the way. Why I didn’t think of that, Lord knows? But I started that method of construction. Des Townson refined it when he built Serene by using smaller stringers on closer spacings. Also John Lidgard built the first Stewart 34 Patiki ,using that method of construction and he wrote an article in SeaSpray in which he acknowledged I was the first one to start this method. But Des refined it by having smaller stringers closer together and running them parallel to the sheerline - so they were all the same distance apart all the way around the boat - and by being closer together, you didn’t have to have fastenings between the stringers to pull the skins together on the glue. Des later developed an electric glue spreader; a wonderful labour saver – I used one for years.
Being in the design and build business, I had to attract attention to my work and product, so when Fiery Cross was launched I decided to go racing, to advertise. The word quickly got around that Fiery Cross had a swing keel and pretty soon I received a letter from the Yachting Association requiring that I sign a declaration that guaranteed we wouldn’t operate this keel while racing. But the keel was fixed anyway because I couldn’t afford the cost of the gear to operate it. Fiery Cross was in this configuration for some years. Movable ballast was illegal in those days but today, part of the liberation of monohull yacht design has been that many have extreme draft with motor driven canting keels that can be lifted close to horizontal. Also they carry daggerboards to replace the lost resistance to leeway of the acutely angled canting keel plus, among other modern changes, asymmetric spinnakers (which are really not modern at all). But the rule makers still prevail. Look at the Americas Cup monohulls, millions spent yet the boats can’t go as fast as a man can run. I also have reservations of multihulls with full wing rigs that require cranes to erect or lower the hard sails; something that is of little practical use to the average sailor.
Later I felt I could design a boat that had harder bilges and a bit more beam than Fiery Cross but I wasn’t prepared to go to the risk of having too much beam - because of built in thinking applied right across the board at that time. In those days the crews sailed their boats with them laying over a long way, a lot further than they do today; just look at those photographs of old keel boats, the lee rail with about a foot of water over it,
crews standing half way up to their knees in white water while hauling in the headsails. But those yachts would also lift out of the water too and this is what happened with long ended boats if they didn’t gather speed. I remember Bill Couldrey saying to me, “I can’t understand these lightweight boats, when they lay over, you’d think they’d float up out of the water.” Yet he ignored or dismissed what actually happened on long ended yachts.

So I decided it was time to sell Fiery Cross and get into a more conventional boat that might attract more orders for yachts. But I could not waste all the trouble I’d gone to without finally swinging the keel. The swinging mechanism could be unlocked so I decided to try letting the keel swing to leeward, then locking it to one side, then going on the other tack with it locked to windward where it could generate that extra power. I’d been talking to Des about it and he was naturally very interested so we met him in his Serene when he anchored off Bean Rock lighthouse. There was a light breeze from the North-east. We thought she would flop over to one side with the weight of the rig so we very gingerly released the keel and nothing happened. The boat just stayed upright. And of course, in hind sight it was obvious; once you released the keel, you transferred the effective weight of the ballast from the bottom, six feet down, to where it became the equivalent of internal ballast. With 2 ½ ton of lead inside, we were still going to have plenty of stability. So we had to force this arm around to one side to get the keel to swing and the boat listing. After a struggle we managed to get it fully canted to the 22 degrees limit. We started sailing with the keel to leeward and the boat laying over in this light breeze. She had bad weather helm and if we allowed the boat to go into the wind, she would stop, she’d stall, and you couldn’t get her sailing again with the rig to one side and the boat with no way on. As soon as the wind got into the sails, she’d round up into the wind and you couldn’t steer her away. Later, the breeze freshened and that was a little better but we still had extreme weather helm. This was another lesson in the obvious. So we tacked and at last, with the keel canted to windward, she started sailing correctly, but we also found that when the boat was upright or slightly leaning to windward, she’d develop lee helm. So this was another lesson. We now know today all these things but then we had to work them out for ourselves. I mean, a wind surfer puts the rig out to one side and it rounds up, pulls it to windward and it bears away. Push it forward and the boat bears away, bring it aft and so on - it’s all there. But it wasn’t obvious then. So, it really taught me the fact that if the boat lies over too far and gets out of balance, you have to put too much helm on to hold her on course, which is like pulling on a brake. And before that people used to believe that the more a keel boat leaned over, the more it wanted to come upright and the better it went, developed the most power that way. But .that power was eaten up by the fact that the centre of drive was so far to one side that the correcting action of the rudder to hold the boat on course, created more drag than the developed power. It ate up all the speed, the power to go fast. And if it went over far enough the rudder would stall and the boat would round up, which is what happened to Tango when she was first built with her too small rudder. It’s amazing how you don’t see things that are so simple. Somebody thinks of something, so absolutely simple, you think, why in hell didn’t I think of that? Simplicity is the hardest thing to find.
But with the boat set up properly, the transition in Fiery Cross was unforgettable; a feeling of power and constant speed and if an extra puff came, she would leap ahead, also the motion was softer too, when driving her hard in 25-30 knots wind and a sharp seaway running. It was very satisfying. So after I got the keel swinging, we did a whole
season with her setup like that - but only cruising and not racing. There was an enormous performance difference, and even though the keel was swung to windward she could point higher and sailed faster because the faster you sail, the less area you need in the keel anyhow. So even though there was less effective area it was still enough to resist leeway. When we finally sold Fiery Cross to Hugh Aimer he wanted me to replace the swinging keel with a conventional fixed one."

There is more on the swinging keel mechanism - that is if you blokes are not bored with all this old history.

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#50 IC youth movement

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:16 PM

Thanks Steve. I just LOVE that the orginal configuration was twin assym boards, you know, like the latest canters have come around to.

So far ahead of her time they couldn't even see it from there. I bet your dad was considered crazy by many at the time.

"A keel that swings athwartship ? That's crazy-talk. They'll ALL be killed." and any 'serious' racing-rating at the time would have been impossible to consider - everybody 'knew' that real race boats were IOR shaped :rolleyes:


And he was building wings for catamarans back in the 60s. Granddad was a little ahead of the curve.

#51 Haji

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 02:34 AM

So glad to see this boat (which I fell in love with years ago) getting the attention she deserves. Kudos to Steve!

#52 mfn

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 02:53 AM

Steve....great boat, love her timeless lines! With our past and current double enders we have enjoyed what this design concept provides. Have you ever considered DSS foils! We have been discussing this for sometime now for our next classic project, and like the idea of reducing ballast, increasing stability, with the option to fully retract the foils inboard, when not needed.

#53 Evo

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 03:10 AM

that is if you blokes are not bored with all this old history.


nah...great thread

#54 SPORTSCAR

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:34 AM

Red Herring is my boat!
She was built in 1980 by Goetz Custom (Hull 22) and was the last "solid wood" boat they built.
She is cold mold cedar on stringers and frames.
The keel can be canted and lifted, but not at the same time.
She is 55'long, 8'3" wide and weighs 9500 lbs.
Those of you keeping score at home will recognize that this gives her a displacement length ratio of about 27, which isn't just light, it's super fucking light.
She draws 9' with the keel down and 6' with it pulled up.
We leave it down most of the time.
The keel can be canted 35 degrees, this is done with hydraulics driven by an electric pump with two huge gel cell bater8es. We can sail for just over 24 hours before recharging.
Fastest we have ever gone is 20 knots. It was 0DARK30 during a Solo/Twin when Lars said "Too bad we can't do this when it's light." I replied," If we could see, we would be too frightened and would stop."

Red Herring was designed by David Hubbard. The concept was all Van Alan Clark Jr. He got the germ of the idea from L. Francis Herreshoff's "sailing machine" in the Common Sense of yacht design, but quickly identified the flaws in Herreshoff's proposal and identified a way to address it. As Dave succinctly put it: to segregate the righting moment and lateral resistance functions of the keel into two appendages. Thus she has a strut with ballast on it to keep her upright and a daggerboard to keep her from sliding sideways.

When I was a kid, Dad and I talked about boats all the time. When you have a number of kids ( I'm #4 of 6) you have special things you share with each kid. I was Dad's "boat kid." He drew on the back of paper place mats at Howard Johnson's when we were stopping for a hot dog. As often as not, it as something that would eventually turn into Red Herring. When I brought home my first International Canoe, he went for a short sail and said "That's it. I'm building the skinny boat."

As originally launched she was a cat ketch with rotating masts and fully battened sails. She had two two centerboards a keel and a rudder. Keel canting was done by winches attached to massive 6:1 block and tackles, and she really didn't work so well. Unfortunately my dad died in 1983 so he never really got to do much in terms of refining the concept. We knew it worked, but really didn't know how well. After Dad died, Dave had her for a few years, and I took possession sometime around 1988. I have been nibbling away at it ever since.
I redesigned the sail plan. Moved the main aft 30" to bring jibs aboard, and a mast head asymmetrical. After a very loud and expensive noise, had GMT make some very nice light carbon masts to replace the heavy aluminum rotating spars.
Next I decided the centerboards were too small, and so installed a deep canard daggerboard. The keel was originally a wood/ composite blade with a fairly low aspect ratio bulb, when I decided I didn't trust it anymore, I had Duncan MacLane and Paul Bogatai design a good one that was machined out of steel with a modern looking bulb. Finally this year, the rudder was upgraded from something that looked OK in the 1970s to a deeper hotter shit blade with a carbon [post that weighs about 1/2 of what the old blade did.
On board accommodation has never been a big feature of the Red Herring experience. Her cross section is a bit smaller than a
J24, so that's about what you get, stretched out a bit. There is a head with a door, but if you are my size, it's a challenge to wipe with the door closed. On the other hand, there is a stove with an oven, which makes hot coffee cake and danishes possible, which is about as civilized as it gets. You cannot stand up in the saloon except in the hatch. There is a nice aft berth under the mizzen, but you can't sit up anywhere except under the hatch. Ezra Smith and I designed some sea hoods this year to make her a bit more habitable in the rain and Blizo and the team at Aquidneck Custom did a wonderful job of fabricating them as well as the new coamings that make it all work as part of our 30 year refit.

On Friday she was sliding along very nicely until the jib blew up. Which means that sailed most of the long beat with the Spandex 130. Not really a jib that goes upwind very well, being too big for the breeze and too stretchy and impossible to sheet in all the way because of the cap shrouds. But what the hell, there are lots worse ways to spend TGIF time.
Red Herring is more of a reaching monster than an upwind device. Usually 40' sloops kick us around uphill, but we get them back the second we can start the sheets a bit. If the wind goes further aft, and we have to really run square, we get crushed again. The only races that are any fun on this boat are ones where there are opportunities for odd angles that modern racing sloops aren't optimal for. Herring has a PHRF rating of -3. On balance I would say that is fair, Once I do the next round of sails, it will probably be lower. I don't really care, the only reason to have a rating is so I can see if any of the changes we make are making the boat faster or slower, and the only way to do that is to race it now and then.

So yeah, she was way ahead of her time, but has been eclipsed by the modern canting keel boats. On the other hand, Dad thought this was the better formula for sailboats, and the performance of the Volvo 70s and others simply confirms that he sure was right about that. Sailing her is one way I remember my old man.
SHC


Great story about a fascinating boat but just one relatively minor inaccuracy; the last solid wood boat built by (Eric) Goetz Custom was the S & S 52' 'Golden Eagle' (now named Serenity 111) in 1983. I sold her here in Australia a few years ago and her build history came with her. If Red Herring is built even half as well then she will outlast you and several generations of your descendants.

#55 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 01:53 PM

Great story about a fascinating boat but just one relatively minor inaccuracy; the last solid wood boat built by (Eric) Goetz Custom was the S & S 52' 'Golden Eagle' (now named Serenity 111) in 1983. I sold her here in Australia a few years ago and her build history came with her. If Red Herring is built even half as well then she will outlast you and several generations of your descendants.

The boat that I began racing on was the first boat that Eric goetz built. Skyhook, a 1/4 ton racer built for Ken & Sandy King of Navtec Rod Rigging. What a great boat that was. She was also cold molded. I do love seeing Red Herring everytime I get down to Bristol and Newport. She is such a stunning looking boat.

#56 Tucky

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 01:57 PM

This has become a fascinating thread. I can't speak for Jim but you are probably right, Eliboat, in that he may have known about Arion and Rozinante; I'll ask him next time I see him. However when he built Fiery Cross, he began construction in 1954 - anyway here are some more quotes and images:

"I built Fiery Cross using double diagonal on stringers but because she was a long boat and I was working on her on my own during spare time, I couldn’t handle long planks. This was the time when reliable, synthetic, totally waterproof glues had recently become available. I got advice from the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, which was headed by Jack Brook, a yacht designer in his own right. He advised me the only reliable glue was Aerodux Resorcinol Urea, a sort of purple coloured glue. And so we used to go through drums of the stuff. And I built Fiery Cross using that method, double diagonal so I only needed to use short planks and thin wood – which made it easier. But I made two mistakes, not serious but silly mistakes. The stringers I gathered together at the bow and stern so around the middle of the boat, they were spread quite well apart - and at the bow and the stern they were far too close. I should have made them parallel to the sheer all the way. Why I didn’t think of that, Lord knows? But I started that method of construction. Des Townson refined it when he built Serene by using smaller stringers on closer spacings. Also John Lidgard built the first Stewart 34 Patiki ,using that method of construction and he wrote an article in SeaSpray in which he acknowledged I was the first one to start this method. But Des refined it by having smaller stringers closer together and running them parallel to the sheerline - so they were all the same distance apart all the way around the boat - and by being closer together, you didn’t have to have fastenings between the stringers to pull the skins together on the glue. Des later developed an electric glue spreader; a wonderful labour saver – I used one for years.


This is a wonderful description of just how progress is made- I love the even-handed attribution of both improvements and errors to himself and others. Truly generous.

Interesting that Steve Clark by example has brought the same generosity to C-Class development, and this generosity has been shared by all those participating.

A salute to you all, and thanks to you, Gary Baigent, for documenting so much of this stuff and making it available. Would that you could write a history of the C-Class.

#57 Steve Clark

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 02:47 PM

Steve....great boat, love her timeless lines! With our past and current double enders we have enjoyed what this design concept provides. Have you ever considered DSS foils! We have been discussing this for sometime now for our next classic project, and like the idea of reducing ballast, increasing stability, with the option to fully retract the foils inboard, when not needed.

To the extent that there is about 3 deg noose down in the keel blade as it cant ( caused by the aft bearing being higher than the forward bearing. The foil creates some down force. This isn't enough to show up as bumps in the surface when we are pressed way over, so I expect it is canceled out by trim changes with speed. Another potentially frightening control would be the ability to change the axis of rotation.....or a trim tab.
The DSS stuff is interesting. And there is a whole lot of fascinating stuff to learn about using foils to manage what has always been the sole province of hull shape.
SHC

#58 Andy Fire

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:06 PM

Great story Steve .
Skinny boats rule.
Wood boats rule!
All credit to you she looks great.


#59 miloman

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:14 PM

Steve:

What a cool boat.

From the pictures it looks like the boat no longer has rotating wing masts. Any particular reason for the switch back to fixed masts? How much sail area can you set?

#60 Steve Clark

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:57 PM

The rotating masts were just aluminum extrusions, not wings. They were very heavy andf didn't seem to bring much to the party. There are many who swear by cat ketches with wing spars, but I don't think I am one of them. I have spent enough time competing in classes where rotating masts are legal, but for various reasons are not used because other issues overshadow the aerodynamic advantages of rotation. I also broke the main mast .in a fairly violent broach refill at the 1991 Buzzards Bay Regatta. I figured taking 300 lbs out of the rig was more important. I also was pretty sure we needed to set jibs, which meant that I had to get good fore stay tension, which wasn't happening with the rotators.

As launched she had 730 ft^2 of working canvas. Now it is slightly north of 1000 ft^2. I think the lite is about 1200.
SHC

#61 Icedtea

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 11:02 PM

Agree with you Steve, I've always been wary of unstayed masts... Friend said why, it's only like a big laser?



Laser masts break. Dont want that to happen to yacht masts..

#62 Left Hook

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 01:44 AM

Steve, how often do you sail the boat out of Bristol?

#63 Hawkeye6

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 06:38 PM

First read about "Red Herring" in an expensive periodical called Nautical Quarterly in the late '80s. I was an engineering student and really appreciated the innovative ideas. I was wondering if the heir to the boat has kept a photo log of the modifications?

#64 Steve Clark

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 01:01 PM

I'm not sure I really like being called "heir to the boat."
I have a name, I post under it.
I have been relatively careful with documenting what has been done over the years. But not to curatorial standards.
Red Herring has significance to me, but i have assumed that the rest of the yachting world could give a shit, preferring to dote on celebrity.
Who owned it is always regarded as more important than what they owned.
The development process has been fairly slow due to cost constraints.
I have to wear out one modification before I can try he next one.
As a result we are only now looking at the next generation of sails.

With regard to "how often," Herring takes somewhat of a back seat to other projects. I race A Class and C Class catamarans as well as International Canoes. As a function of my genetics, I have to build almost everything I sail.
This takes up a lot of time that otherwise might be spent on the Herring. But we try to sail her once a week.
SHC

#65 Tucky

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 02:17 PM

As a function of my genetics, I have to build almost everything I sail.
This takes up a lot of time that otherwise might be spent on the Herring. But we try to sail her once a week.
SHC


Nicely put.

#66 Left Hook

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:20 PM

I'm not sure I really like being called "heir to the boat."
I have a name, I post under it.
I have been relatively careful with documenting what has been done over the years. But not to curatorial standards.
Red Herring has significance to me, but i have assumed that the rest of the yachting world could give a shit, preferring to dote on celebrity.
Who owned it is always regarded as more important than what they owned.
The development process has been fairly slow due to cost constraints.
I have to wear out one modification before I can try he next one.
As a result we are only now looking at the next generation of sails.

With regard to "how often," Herring takes somewhat of a back seat to other projects. I race A Class and C Class catamarans as well as International Canoes. As a function of my genetics, I have to build almost everything I sail.
This takes up a lot of time that otherwise might be spent on the Herring. But we try to sail her once a week.
SHC


This may be imposing but if you ever wind up short a person for one of those daysails I'd be ecstatic to join you and see this beautiful machine. I live right around the corner and would kill to get an up close look.

#67 Hawkeye6

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:42 PM

No slight intended with the term "heir', simply a term I used after reading the story of the boat's conception. Apologies.

#68 Great Red Shark

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:29 PM

I took your meaning too, - when I read that Hawkeye - but it did make me think, "Can't really call him the hier if he had to BUY it back..."

I have to admit I'm a little surprised you aren't in SF with one of the AC crews though Steve.

When the AC crew went to wings I thought all the C-Class leaders would be in made in the shade, full-ride gigs, limos picking up your laundry, a caddy to keep an A-Cat at the ready. Not so much, eh ?

I do really appreciate the story of the good ship Red Herring though -Thank you. Did it ever get a story in Wooden Boat ?

#69 HASYB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 08:18 PM

Very, very nIce slim slender sailers, only needs a few more pictures.
Red Herring with m.h. assy?

#70 Amati

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:57 AM

FWIW, Steve, RH was in my brain a lot during Amati's gestation. IC's too. 30 sq m's too.

Good places to start.

Really good places. Like LFH's book by the bed.

I always liked to think you kept her because of the idea(s) she represents. For my dad and thankfully me, napkins were the playground of the mind. But ballpoint seemed to work better than the harder leads. More of a commitment, at any rate.

Paul






#71 HASYB

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:12 PM

From LAC's Facebook page


Posted Image

#72 slip knot

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:51 PM

In my opinion the CBTF patent was flawed, but as these things inevitably happen, granted anyway.
Red Herring clearly existed before the CBTF patent was authored, but critically Alberto Calderon did not understand how Red Herring was configured and thus believed he was more original than he in fact was.This is akin to me making broad claims about the originality of Red Herring without acknowledging L.Francis and Jim Young.
The proportional relationship between the canard and aft rudder of the CBTF program is very tricky and was hard to figure out. This clearly is CBTF intellectual property. But the patent was written such that any control of the lift or angle of attack, linked (or un-linked) of both the canard and aft foils requires a license from CBTF. In my view this claim reaches too far.

Legally:
As she currently sits, Herring does not violate the patent, because the canard is a simple daggerboard.
However if I were to add a trim tab to the forward daggerboard, or arrange for it to gybe, I would need to pay a license fee to CBTF. This pisses me off. and while either gybing or flapping the canard is a sensible thing to consider because the boat is still kind of starved for side force, I'll be goddamned if I'm going to pay for the right to do it to a boat that existed before the patent was granted. But then again, there are lots of other things to get worked up about, and this one really is at the buzzing fly level of annoyance.
SHC


I'm pretty sure that a patent would not apply to you anyway. You would only be infringing on the patent if you were to produce the parts in a commercial venture. Patents don't apply to a product that is intended for personal use.
If you think the movable tabs would help, you should build them.

#73 JimC

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 04:00 PM

but i have assumed that the rest of the yachting world could give a shit, preferring to dote on celebrity.

I like to think I did my little bit to give credit where due...

#74 jhiller

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 12:52 PM

In the slings
Attached File  red herring in slings.jpg   123.91K   776 downloads
Pretty good view of the hull shape and the keel and rudder.
The daggerboard is not in because we keep it out of the trunk except when sailing just to keep it slime free.
Sliding dodgers/ Sea hoods visible as well. Allows you to stand up in the saloon, and wash the dishes.
Also allows sailing with some version of ventilation below.

And afloat:
Attached File  On the mooring.JPG   440.52K   705 downloads
"Not much meat on her, but what there is is choice"
- Spencer Tracy on Katherine Hepburn

SHC


In a world where most sailboats look pretty much alike you have a singular gem..... That is one F'n gorgeous boat

#75 Bob Perry

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 03:17 PM

I totally agre with Jim. RH knocked me out the very first time I saw it many years ago. I think it was on the cover of SAIL. Nice to see it still going.




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