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Volvo Ocean Race 2014-2015 Entrants


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#501 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:39 PM

VOR organizers made it very clear, very early in fact, that they were putting their where-with-all behind a US under 30 entry, and that this was the only US effort that they felt warranted their interest and or expertise. There are two very well funded TP52 campaigns whose benefactors are very well connected US individuals, one VC and the head of Amway. Devos would be well advised to help support the US team, as his largest market for growth is China. However, this does not change the fact that VOR has done everything possible to shoot themselves in the foot. The CEO of the event was present for pitch meetings months ago, and funding still has not emerged. This illustrates two points, corporate entities in the US place little emphasis on Larry Ellison's chosen hobby, and/or  they do not take the event seriously. The state of affairs is quite sad actually.

 

I think Devos is pretty well situated to decide how well advised they are to support the US team. The fact is there are a lot of people in charge of corporate sponsor dollars that could make the decision in favor of funding a Volvo campaign, from the Devos', to the Kochs and Kohlers and Ellisons and on and on and on. Likewise there are lots of companies from soft drinks and power drinks, etc. that spend a shit ton more on events and sports with even less mainstream appeal than offshore sailing. The space jump stunt alone cost Red Bull $50 million dollars! The problem isn't some kind of "keep it from being populist and downmarket" conspiracy bullshit like Clean is selling, it is that none of the existing events have properly marketed to US corporations. It has obviously been amateur hour on that, and the current Volvo instalment is just yet another example. Volvo got themselves sold a bill of goods by the one design crusaders, have they realised it yet? How late is it going to go before they "revamp" the program and clean house?

 

Rolex's sponsorship program ain't no bullshit homeboy.  You really think a company that depends entirely on "exclusivity" and has been the single biggest sponsor of american sailing for two decades doesn't have a plan to make sure the 'image' stays that way?

 

Not logical.

 

And I don't know where you get your info from, but there was no one selling any 'goods' to VOR. The organization made their decisions from the top down in concert with the likely competitors and existing and likely sponsors.  



#502 Krashwerks

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:42 PM

VOR organizers made it very clear, very early in fact, that they were putting their where-with-all behind a US under 30 entry, and that this was the only US effort that they felt warranted their interest and or expertise. There are two very well funded TP52 campaigns whose benefactors are very well connected US individuals, one VC and the head of Amway. Devos would be well advised to help support the US team, as his largest market for growth is China. However, this does not change the fact that VOR has done everything possible to shoot themselves in the foot. The CEO of the event was present for pitch meetings months ago, and funding still has not emerged. This illustrates two points, corporate entities in the US place little emphasis on Larry Ellison's chosen hobby, and/or  they do not take the event seriously. The state of affairs is quite sad actually.

 

I think Devos is pretty well situated to decide how well advised they are to support the US team. The fact is there are a lot of people in charge of corporate sponsor dollars that could make the decision in favor of funding a Volvo campaign, from the Devos', to the Kochs and Kohlers and Ellisons and on and on and on. Likewise there are lots of companies from soft drinks and power drinks, etc. that spend a shit ton more on events and sports with even less mainstream appeal than offshore sailing. The space jump stunt alone cost Red Bull $50 million dollars! The problem isn't some kind of "keep it from being populist and downmarket" conspiracy bullshit like Clean is selling, it is that none of the existing events have properly marketed to US corporations. It has obviously been amateur hour on that, and the current Volvo instalment is just yet another example. Volvo got themselves sold a bill of goods by the one design crusaders, have they realised it yet? How late is it going to go before they "revamp" the program and clean house?

I will not comment on the individuals capable of supporting an entry, as that is irrelevant in a true corporate sponsorship conversation. I will use Coca-Cola as an example of the state of affairs as related to sailing. Individual teams as well as event organizers, participating in either the America's Cup or the Volvo Ocean Race, have pitched to Coca-Cola both directly throughout the sports sponsorship office, and indirectly through the bottling groups. To be very blunt, and this is from an on record interview with the individual that makes the decisions which events Coca-Cola will sponsor, they will not even consider an event unless it can place them in 50+ international markets. Pepsi follows the same protocols. It will take a very creative approach to garner buy-in from anyone within the US at this point in time. In addition, VOR controls far too many channels for 2014-2015 (as one can surmise given the change to OD and the upfront order of the boats), and the marketing and advertising restrictions are the most restrictive they have been in the last several editions. This does not present value to a team seeking sponsorship on the premise of true ROI, as they can do very little in terms of activation without being in breach of current event protocols.



#503 doghouse

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:06 PM

Since when has Rolex been considered "exclusive"? 1963?

 

Volvo is sponsored by IWC anyway, which actually is exclusive.



#504 dogwatch

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:34 PM

In addition, VOR controls far too many channels for 2014-2015 (as one can surmise given the change to OD and the upfront order of the boats), and the marketing and advertising restrictions are the most restrictive they have been in the last several editions. This does not present value to a team seeking sponsorship on the premise of true ROI, as they can do very little in terms of activation without being in breach of current event protocols.

 

Interesting comments but what does "channels" mean in this context?



#505 S MacLeod

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:26 PM

you did? who are you? I don't remember anyone named Mr. Fixit at Tulane? :)

MacLeod! There's a sudden memory. Sailed with him back in his Tulane days.



#506 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:45 PM

 

VOR organizers made it very clear, very early in fact, that they were putting their where-with-all behind a US under 30 entry, and that this was the only US effort that they felt warranted their interest and or expertise. There are two very well funded TP52 campaigns whose benefactors are very well connected US individuals, one VC and the head of Amway. Devos would be well advised to help support the US team, as his largest market for growth is China. However, this does not change the fact that VOR has done everything possible to shoot themselves in the foot. The CEO of the event was present for pitch meetings months ago, and funding still has not emerged. This illustrates two points, corporate entities in the US place little emphasis on Larry Ellison's chosen hobby, and/or  they do not take the event seriously. The state of affairs is quite sad actually.

 

I think Devos is pretty well situated to decide how well advised they are to support the US team. The fact is there are a lot of people in charge of corporate sponsor dollars that could make the decision in favor of funding a Volvo campaign, from the Devos', to the Kochs and Kohlers and Ellisons and on and on and on. Likewise there are lots of companies from soft drinks and power drinks, etc. that spend a shit ton more on events and sports with even less mainstream appeal than offshore sailing. The space jump stunt alone cost Red Bull $50 million dollars! The problem isn't some kind of "keep it from being populist and downmarket" conspiracy bullshit like Clean is selling, it is that none of the existing events have properly marketed to US corporations. It has obviously been amateur hour on that, and the current Volvo instalment is just yet another example. Volvo got themselves sold a bill of goods by the one design crusaders, have they realised it yet? How late is it going to go before they "revamp" the program and clean house?

VOR controls far too many channels for 2014-2015 (as one can surmise given the change to OD and the upfront order of the boats), and the marketing and advertising restrictions are the most restrictive they have been in the last several editions. This does not present value to a team seeking sponsorship on the premise of true ROI, as they can do very little in terms of activation without being in breach of current event protocols.

This to me sounds like a lot of chicken little and not a lot of substance.  Do you really have evidence that a potential sponsor walked from the table due to the restrictiveness of the advertising rules?



#507 Heriberto

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:00 AM

If you are saying that Rolex is so all-powerful that their sponsorship efforts ENSURE that sailing remain a snobby, exclusive sport, or they actually BELIEVE their efforts are the reason, then I take it back. That isn't just bullshit, it's a candidate for the most preposterous statement of 2013

So nobody sold VOR on the benefits of a Farr led one design? While not quite up there in the same preposterous zone, it is unlikely in the extreme, if only because if Farr et. al. weren't selling a one design package, they would be guilty of gross business incompetence, and I'm not accusing them of being stupid. If any one was smart in this shitshow, it was the Farr VO65 design-build group. They are getting the guaranteed money! Why are you accusing Farr of stupidity and incompetence, Clean?

#508 DtM

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:43 AM

Clean, as usual, adding nothing to the discussion.

#509 oioi

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:59 AM

And this comment added what?

#510 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 02:44 PM

nobody sold VOR on the benefits of a Farr led one design? While not quite up there in the same preposterous zone, it is unlikely in the extreme, if only because if Farr et. al. weren't selling a one design package, they would be guilty of gross business incompetence, and I'm not accusing them of being stupid.

VOR went looking for a one-design; Farr didn't lead a thing.  VOR asked for concepts/bids in a very private RFP proposal that went on for half a year, and they chose to work with Farr over the 4 or 5 other firms who bid.

 

You write as though you have some inside info, but I don't see anything beyond you guessing.  Must be winter again.



#511 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:09 PM

If you are saying that Rolex is so all-powerful that their sponsorship efforts ENSURE that sailing remain a snobby, exclusive sport, or they actually BELIEVE their efforts are the reason, then I take it back. 

The sponsorship agreement with Rolex requires that event organizers remove pretty much all branding or sponsorship at 'their' regattas.

Rolex does not want sailing to appear populist, or colorful, or young.  Rolex wants to sell watches to owners of TP52s and Farr 40s, and to make sure that the world thinks sailing is for really, really rich people.  

 

Sponsorship agreements with Rolex require that Rolex supply or approve the entire communications process and personnel.  Advertising, branding, video, photo - all of it is designed to meet their goal, which is all about image and often conflicts squarely with what pretty much every yacht club and regatta's goal is or should be (and is usually written into the by-laws), which is to provide a great event that benefits the members and the sport.

 

You probably don't get to see a lot of that in the midwest, but anyone who has worked a Farr 40, BBS, USVI event knows all this quite well.  Rolex is no friend to sailing.



#512 Heriberto

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:36 PM

If you are saying that Rolex is so all-powerful that their sponsorship efforts ENSURE that sailing remain a snobby, exclusive sport, or they actually BELIEVE their efforts are the reason, then I take it back. 

The sponsorship agreement with Rolex requires that event organizers remove pretty much all branding or sponsorship at 'their' regattas.

Rolex does not want sailing to appear populist, or colorful, or young.  Rolex wants to sell watches to owners of TP52s and Farr 40s, and to make sure that the world thinks sailing is for really, really rich people.  

 

Sponsorship agreements with Rolex require that Rolex supply or approve the entire communications process and personnel.  Advertising, branding, video, photo - all of it is designed to meet their goal, which is all about image and often conflicts squarely with what pretty much every yacht club and regatta's goal is or should be (and is usually written into the by-laws), which is to provide a great event that benefits the members and the sport.

 

You probably don't get to see a lot of that in the midwest, but anyone who has worked a Farr 40, BBS, USVI event knows all this quite well.  Rolex is no friend to sailing.

 

"You probably don't get to see a lot of that in the Midwest." Har. Who is the snob? Actually, I, and my friends, go and participate in a lot of these events, you know, Midwesterners like you once were.

 

My point wasn't whether or not that is what Rolex wants to do, or tries to do, or focuses on doing. I'm sure they do as much as they can to protect their image. That doesn't mean that their efforts overall have squat to do with maintaining the "snob" appeal of sailing, like some kind of Great Powerful Snob OZ behind the scenes pulling stops on the snob organ. The problem is a helluva lot more complicated than regattas selling out advertising for Rolex, but some people do focus on "oooh! Bright! Shiny!", and not a lot of things are brighter and shinier than a Rolex.



#513 Heriberto

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:52 PM

Here is what I said: "Volvo got themselves sold a bill of goods by the one design crusaders, have they realised it yet?". That is all. Whether they were internal or external crusaders is irrelevant conspiracy fodder. In my opinion, they got sold a bill of goods by people who thought that was going to save them, because the answer to every sailing question over the last 30 years seems to be "one design". I think that is bullshit and they fucked up big time, YMMV, obviously does, and we shall see over the course of the next few months, although the one design crusaders will always have "well, it is the economy and nothing could be done anyway." to fall back on as an excuse if it falls on it's face (something they are doing already).

 

But then in response to what I wrote, you said "Oh no! There wasn't anyone selling them on one design!". Which I found to be the most preposterous thing I had read in a long time. Once they put out an RFP, it was the fiduciary duty of any respondent  to sell them on a particular one design solution and also against the competing non one design solution. Now, people who work in the real world understand this, so I can see how that might slip by you. But regardless, how was it supposed to work for NOBODY to sell them on one design? All of a sudden it pops into all of their collective conscious fully formed "We are putting out an RFP for one design, whatever that is."? No, some group either internal or external was championing it, that is how it works.

 

You can't seriously be this dim.



#514 doghouse

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 06:04 PM

I am still trying to figure out what the hell Rolex has to do with the VOR.



#515 Heriberto

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 06:21 PM

They control all of sailing DH. Their tentacles reach into the very minds of the populace, convincing them that sailing is an elite snob sport, making it radioactive to any other potential sailing sponsor. Haven't you gotten the memo from your Rolex overlords? If you don't agree, you clearly don't know as much about elite sailing events as Clean... :blink:



#516 doghouse

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 06:28 PM

Obviously.



#517 mad

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 06:48 PM

Tin foil hat time for some people here.

#518 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:19 PM

 I'm sure they do as much as they can to protect their image. That doesn't mean that their efforts overall have squat to do with maintaining the "snob" appeal of sailing, like some kind of Great Powerful Snob OZ behind the scenes pulling stops on the snob organ. The problem is a helluva lot more complicated than regattas selling out advertising for Rolex, but some people do focus on "oooh! Bright! Shiny!", and not a lot of things are brighter and shinier than a Rolex.

How much do you think Rolex spends on sailing in the US every year, total?

 

How much do you think all the other sponsors spend?  

 

Would it surprise you to learn that Rolex has spent more cash than any other sponsor in american sailing over the past forty years? 

 

Do you believe that has no effect on the sport?



#519 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:23 PM

i forgot who i was arguing with.  my apologies, people.

 

back to your regularly scheduled subject.



#520 oioi

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:27 PM

 
Would it surprise you to learn that Rolex has spent more cash than any other sponsor in american sailing over the past forty years? 
 


What more than oracle?

#521 Heriberto

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:54 PM

Personalities trump facts. Got it. FWIW, Doghouse doesn't believe you either. Neither does anybody else.

 

But hey, prove us wrong. Provide a link to the numbers showing "Rolex has spent more cash than any other sponsor in American sailing over the past forty years", and how that has been the main reason why sailing is still seen as a snob sport so that no other sponsor will touch the VOR. You are the one putting out the preposterous statements like this one, without a shred of evidence at all aside from "trust me, I'm on the inside". Put up, or shut up.

 

If you are going to get all butt-hurt over people expressing their opinions on sailing, maybe you picked the wrong career? Time to hang up the ole Sailing Anarchy spurs?



#522 doghouse

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:59 PM

FWIW, Doghouse doesn't believe you either.

 

I'm really just trying to figure out what Rolex has to do with the VOR, which is sponsored by IWC, and is actually a high line watch. I don't have any opinion on who spent the most sponsorship money in the US historically. I'm sure Rolex is a candidate, along with a few others like Audi and Acura. Mount Gay just by reach and longevity has to be up there too.

 

As an aside, if Rolex is trying to keep sailing exclusive, that's pretty poor strategy from what's at best a mid range product.



#523 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 09:46 PM

Wow, this thread has really gone off topic.  Back to who is coming to the show?  I do think that going to one-design was a mistake and probably did not save a huge sum of money.  I do not know if it will affect viewership or sponsorship.



#524 Krashwerks

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 08:51 PM

 

 

VOR organizers made it very clear, very early in fact, that they were putting their where-with-all behind a US under 30 entry, and that this was the only US effort that they felt warranted their interest and or expertise. There are two very well funded TP52 campaigns whose benefactors are very well connected US individuals, one VC and the head of Amway. Devos would be well advised to help support the US team, as his largest market for growth is China. However, this does not change the fact that VOR has done everything possible to shoot themselves in the foot. The CEO of the event was present for pitch meetings months ago, and funding still has not emerged. This illustrates two points, corporate entities in the US place little emphasis on Larry Ellison's chosen hobby, and/or  they do not take the event seriously. The state of affairs is quite sad actually.

 

I think Devos is pretty well situated to decide how well advised they are to support the US team. The fact is there are a lot of people in charge of corporate sponsor dollars that could make the decision in favor of funding a Volvo campaign, from the Devos', to the Kochs and Kohlers and Ellisons and on and on and on. Likewise there are lots of companies from soft drinks and power drinks, etc. that spend a shit ton more on events and sports with even less mainstream appeal than offshore sailing. The space jump stunt alone cost Red Bull $50 million dollars! The problem isn't some kind of "keep it from being populist and downmarket" conspiracy bullshit like Clean is selling, it is that none of the existing events have properly marketed to US corporations. It has obviously been amateur hour on that, and the current Volvo instalment is just yet another example. Volvo got themselves sold a bill of goods by the one design crusaders, have they realised it yet? How late is it going to go before they "revamp" the program and clean house?

VOR controls far too many channels for 2014-2015 (as one can surmise given the change to OD and the upfront order of the boats), and the marketing and advertising restrictions are the most restrictive they have been in the last several editions. This does not present value to a team seeking sponsorship on the premise of true ROI, as they can do very little in terms of activation without being in breach of current event protocols.

This to me sounds like a lot of chicken little and not a lot of substance.  Do you really have evidence that a potential sponsor walked from the table due to the restrictiveness of the advertising rules?

Dear Clean, 

 

Yes, I do have evidence that a potential sponsor walked away due to the advertising rules. It was not the flagging of the boats per se, but rather what individual teams are permitted to control on the ground, the restrictiveness of individual team sponsored events, and other team related tertiary marketing measures.

 

With reference to my "channels" notation, that was merely to highlight that VOR controls nearly every marketable touchpoint, especially now that they have fronted so much for the event.

 

And in support of your statement regarding Rolex and sailing, you are 100% percent accurate. The company has has spent more in sailing worldwide than any other corporate entity over the last 40 years. This is a proven fact, and can be corroborated by looking at the capital spend on the Rolex balance sheet every year. Oracle does not count in this instance, as a disproportionate amount of the yearly team budget was bankrolled by its Chairman and CEO



#525 alcoholfunnycar

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 05:46 AM

I sailed for twenty years before I even saw my first Rolex. I don't have any idea what it has to do with the Volvo Ocean Race.



#526 flatearth

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 04:24 PM

Class rules 

http://www.volvoocea...dt-1-131004.pdf

 

Amended 1 Oct 13 require North Sails. The first version of the rule did not specify a brand, but only a VOR approved sailmaker(singular).

 

Owners may request a rule change with at least two other owners. Hypothetically another sail loft could be on board a boat(s) with a rule change, but the likelihood of this has the probability of zero.

 

This race has the most benefit to Volvo AB. While Volvo Car Corp and Volvo AB share the trade mark and name, the car is really only known to a small market which in the US, votes blue, wears tweed, listens to NPR and supports green causes (actually looks a lot like your year round neighbor in Newport, RI). This has been the market that Volvo has tried to shed and compete against BMW, Audi and MB. It has been hit or miss. Ford finally gave up on their expensive and schizophrenic Premiere Automotive Group in 2006 under new CEO Allen Mulally, though reeked the benefits of the safely technology that Volvo Cars is known for, incorporating into its current Ford platforms. The entry level Volvo S40/V40 has been discounted in the US. It is too expensive to import from Sweden. The smallest offering is the new S60. Nice car in a crowed market. Volvo Cars is in the midst of a complete showroom revamp, is it too little, too late for its car business in the US? The VOR will not fix this.

 

On the other hand, Volvo AB remains very strong in the US, with Volvo Truck NA, Volvo Penta, Prevost/NOVA bus, and Volvo Construction Equipment. These are all business segments in the B2B market, not consumer products. As mentioned, hospitality is very important to Volvo and the dealer/buyer relationship. Miami, while a bust for the general public, was well received by B2B. Want to sell a fleet of buses or trucks? Bring the right people to Miami. Newport may actual work well, as these people like to bring their wives once in a while and Newport has all of the right trappings. Good restaurants, walking city, mansion tours, some vineyards. Lots of booze. Ever go to a truck or construction equipment trade show? It's all about the evening entertainment. These people will care little about sailing event itself, but they will enjoy a nice tour on a 12m or a booze cruise on the Rum Runner. 

 

For the other ports outside the US, the laws are a bit more open when it comes to entertaining those responsible in government for buying equipment and infrastructure.  So this race is not about selling cars, it is and has been since it was bought, about the brands of Volvo AB in markets that are growing and needs the types of products that Volvo AB manufactures. Will Volvo Cars be present, yes, but it's not about selling the car, though the brand cannot be opposed.



#527 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 05:59 PM

Rolex...t a mid range product.

Wow - That is some serious rich white boy thinking right there.

 

You think that a brand whose cheapest watch goes for $5,000 is mid range.  What do you think the mean or median spend is nationwide on watches?  

 

No wonder this sport can't raise any fucking money in the US. 



#528 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 06:05 PM

Provide a link to the numbers showing "Rolex has spent more cash than any other sponsor in American sailing over the past forty years", and how that has been the main reason why sailing is still seen as a snob sport so that no other sponsor will touch the VOR. You are the one putting out the preposterous statements like this one, without a shred of evidence at all aside from "trust me, I'm on the inside". Put up, or shut up.

Why would I bother?  Anyone who has run regattas at a high level over the years knows for a fact that what I am saying is true, and there's nothing even remotely 'preposterous' about it.  You don't know any better, but that's more a reflection on what you have or haven't done, than on your character or level of education.  

 

You know how much Rolex spends on 'administering' the Farr 40 Class for something like 9 years now? It's over $25k/month and that doesn't include their Worlds budget, prizes, etc.    



#529 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 06:07 PM

 
Would it surprise you to learn that Rolex has spent more cash than any other sponsor in american sailing over the past forty years? 
 


What more than oracle?

According to their shareholders: "They had better not have spent a fucking nickel on it!"

 

That was Larry's money.



#530 doghouse

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 06:27 PM

Rolex...t a mid range product.

Wow - That is some serious rich white boy thinking right there.

 

You think that a brand whose cheapest watch goes for $5,000 is mid range.  What do you think the mean or median spend is nationwide on watches?  

 

No wonder this sport can't raise any fucking money in the US. 

 

Um, no, it's actually knowing how the consumer goods industry works. Rolex's target demographic is firmly in the aspirational middle class, just as Louis Vuitton and all the rest are. Rolex gave up being high line years ago. They have brought mass market luxury in as an avenue to volume, which is fine, but it's not the same as a Patek Phillipe or any other truly high end watch. Just as the LV makes mass market shit, some actually in China (though the steamer trunk is still legit and made in France). You can't compare them to Hermes anymore.

 

And anyway, Rolex's can actually be had for about 3,500 USD and they give them away like candy at regattas. You can find basically any middle manager or business professional in this country right now and have a strong chance of finding a Rolex. I know city utility inspectors with 'em.

 

And none of this has to do with the Volvo, who have an actual high end watch sponsor(IWC), high end events (Oracle carried TAG Heuer for the AC), or sailing at all, and it sure as shit has nothing to do with finding funding in the USA.



#531 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:22 PM

 

Rolex...t a mid range product.

Wow - That is some serious rich white boy thinking right there.

 

You think that a brand whose cheapest watch goes for $5,000 is mid range.  What do you think the mean or median spend is nationwide on watches?  

 

No wonder this sport can't raise any fucking money in the US. 

 

 Rolex's target demographic is firmly in the aspirational middle class, 

 

You are confusing reality with your reality, and 'the aspirational middle class' with 'mid range'.

 

Perhaps a watch that costs $3500 at a minimum is mid-range amongst those who own 40-foot racing yachts, dressage horses, or SCCA road racers.  

 

It ain't mid-range for anyone else. 

 

Just semantics, but with nothing else going on in VOR land...



#532 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:28 PM

who have an actual high end watch sponsor(IWC), 

I don't know if your knowledge of watches is as sound as you think G.  Take a look at your beloved IWC; guess they are now lower than mid-range, right?  Jeez, and TAG is for the truly poor.

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#533 doghouse

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:51 PM

who have an actual high end watch sponsor(IWC), 

I don't know if your knowledge of watches is as sound as you think G.  Take a look at your beloved IWC; guess they are now lower than mid-range, right?  Jeez, and TAG is for the truly poor.

 

No, not at all. The MSRP is not what I'm talking about, and I didn't call TAG high end, I said the AC was high end and not using Rolex. There's nothing you can say that will change the fact that Rolex is not a high end watch, anyone with any knowledge of horography knows this.

 

http://www.chronocen...es/brands.shtml

 

The aspirational middle class IS the mid range. It's every suburbanite with a 30 year note, HELOC and credit debt up to their eyeballs. Watch The Joneses (by a guy from my hometown btw). That is current America.

 

Look, as tempting as it is to talk shit, I don't try and give you facts about the French scene, or catamarans, or any other number of things you are plugged into, because you obviously know these things better than I. But I can guarantee that I know a hell of a lot more than you about mid market pseudo luxury bullshit and the marketing thereof, of which Rolex is a prime example.

 

If you want a sort of cheap glossed over version of how this came to be, a good light read is Deluxe:How Luxury Lost it's Luster by Dana Thomas.



#534 Krashwerks

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:55 PM

Oh my gentlemen, for the sake of sanity may we please dispense with the unpleasantries? Many have recently asked what any of the recent threads have to do with the VOR, and more importantly with new entries. Discussions continue to ensue about potential sponsors, which forces those in the know to invariably note other top tier corporate investors in the sport; whilst pontificating their involvement in any new programs and endeavors related to the VOR. 



#535 Krashwerks

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 08:31 PM

 

who have an actual high end watch sponsor(IWC), 

I don't know if your knowledge of watches is as sound as you think G.  Take a look at your beloved IWC; guess they are now lower than mid-range, right?  Jeez, and TAG is for the truly poor.

 

No, not at all. The MSRP is not what I'm talking about, and I didn't call TAG high end, I said the AC was high end and not using Rolex. There's nothing you can say that will change the fact that Rolex is not a high end watch, anyone with any knowledge of horography knows this.

 

http://www.chronocen...es/brands.shtml

 

The aspirational middle class IS the mid range. It's every suburbanite with a 30 year note, HELOC and credit debt up to their eyeballs. Watch The Joneses (by a guy from my hometown btw). That is current America.

 

Look, as tempting as it is to talk shit, I don't try and give you facts about the French scene, or catamarans, or any other number of things you are plugged into, because you obviously know these things better than I. But I can guarantee that I know a hell of a lot more than you about mid market pseudo luxury bullshit and the marketing thereof, of which Rolex is a prime example.

 

If you want a sort of cheap glossed over version of how this came to be, a good light read is Deluxe:How Luxury Lost it's Luster by Dana Thomas.

Umm.... I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Rolex was asked to bid on the most recent AC when LVMH walked away the first time. Rolex did not like the terms of the event, and feared that there would not be enough entries. LVMH was subsequently invited back in for a reduced premium. I can honestly not believe that this discussion is so fervent with general disgust. To put the "watch debate" to rest, let us take a look back in time shall we? Citizen and Tag have been involved in the AC for years. Audemars was the original Alinghi sponsor (Hublot was their secondary). Audemars only became involved because of Bertarelli. Rolex owns rights to all of the events it sponsors, which is why Rolex Submariners "are given out like candy" at Rolex events. For those of you that do not already know, Arnault and his LVMH group owns everything from Louis Vuitton and Moet, to Tag Heuer, Chaumet and Hublot. Has anyone connected the dots yet? The world of sponsorship is a very very small community. In some ways it is just like the sailing community. Nobody can sneeze without someone hearing it across an ocean. Before throwing stones, it might be wise to do a bit more research.



#536 doghouse

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 08:40 PM

Did you even read what I wrote? I suggest you do a little research first my friend.

 

Edit: Anyway, I'm out, this has gotten so far from the VOR it's not funny, even as much fun as talking shit with Alan is.

 

Bernies LVMH mass luxury empire was the first example I raised, so I don't have time to go back an forth with someone who didn't even bother to read what I wrote.

 

The bottom line is the amount of people who can afford Rolex's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People can afford boats. Rolex trying to keep any appearance is inane.



#537 Krashwerks

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:15 PM

Of course I read what you wrote, and I did not disagree with anything that you said in the least other than this "... I said the AC was high end and not using Rolex".

 

Did you read what I wrote? I was simply stating that Rolex was the first invited by ACEA to bid on sponsorship of the event when LVMH walked out. That led to the state of the players in the timekeeping market of sailing over the last several events. Nothing more, nothing less. You are absolutely correct that Rolex has indeed lost its luster.

 

I then tried to gently guide the conversation back to sponsorship and the difficult finding funding and sources os sponsorship for new entries. 



#538 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:18 PM

Oh my gentlemen, for the sake of sanity may we please dispense with the unpleasantries? 

I haven't had a good argument with doghouse in years.  Why you want to mess with my fun?



#539 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:21 PM

The aspirational middle class IS the mid range. It's every suburbanite with a 30 year note, HELOC and credit debt up to their eyeballs. Watch The Joneses (by a guy from my hometown btw). That is current America.

The median household income in the USA was $52,100 last year.  You really think a Rolex is under their Christmas tree?



#540 Krashwerks

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:28 PM

Did you even read what I wrote? I suggest you do a little research first my friend.

 

Edit: Anyway, I'm out, this has gotten so far from the VOR it's not funny, even as much fun as talking shit with Alan is.

 

Bernies LVMH mass luxury empire was the first example I raised, so I don't have time to go back an forth with someone who didn't even bother to read what I wrote.

 

The bottom line is the amount of people who can afford Rolex's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People can afford boats. Rolex trying to keep any appearance is inane.

Dear Doghouse,

 

Please excuse any offense. I did not see any reference to Arnault's empire in your most recent post, unless it was from a previous post which I did not see. Good grief, there was never any attempt to start an argument.

 

In reference to your request for only relevant 2014-2105 VOR news, much will undoubtedly surface after the next week Newport meeting, as all relevant parties will be in attendance.



#541 doghouse

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:41 PM

Oh my gentlemen, for the sake of sanity may we please dispense with the unpleasantries? 


I haven't had a good argument with doghouse in years.  Why you want to mess with my fun?

:lol:

#542 Heriberto

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:08 AM

Clean,

 

So I stipulate to your fact that Rolex has spent more on regatta sponsorship than any other corporate entity. SO WHAT?

 

What you said that I found preposterous was your point that, all because of Rolex, sailing is seen by everybody in America and everybody in the corporate world as a high-end snob sport/activity, and, all because of Rolex, VOR can't get any corporate funding for a US team. That is just ridiculous.

 

The lack of US spectator interest in sailing (and participation in offshore racing) is down to a lot more than that.

 

But all of that I suppose is just excuse making for why VOR isn't able to get a US team?



#543 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 01:32 AM

What you said that I found preposterous was your point that, all because of Rolex, sailing is seen by everybody in America and everybody in the corporate world as a high-end snob sport/activity, and, all because of Rolex, VOR can't get any corporate funding for a US team. That is just ridiculous.

 

The lack of US spectator interest in sailing (and participation in offshore racing) is down to a lot more than that.

Not "all" because of Rolex, but definitely Rolex is the biggest part of it.  I know it sounds crazy, but I really think it is true based on not only their own sponsorship documents but also on what numerous event staffers and other sponsors have told me. Of course there are dozens of reasons sailing is only a tiny blip on the national radar, but in my opinion the biggest single reason that so many people still think sailing = Thurston Howell III in the USA is because of Rolex's deliberate and careful, 40-year long campaign of selective sponsorship, branding, and PR throughout the sport. 

 

Try this:  Add up all Rolex's sailing-based advertisements in every Playboy, Sports Illustrated, Robb Report, and however many other dozens of magazines they advertise in around the country.  Add in all the TV ads and newspaper spots with a guy on a yacht wearing a Rolex.  I really don't know how many of them there are, but I do know that Rolex license fees have funded quite a few sailing photographers' childrens' college tuition, and I do know that I see a few each year and I hardly look at print or TV.

 

Then, add up all the other sailing imagery that reaches millions of eyeballs every year in the USA.

 

What, you say?  You can't think of any other sailing images that reach millions of eyeballs every year in the US?  And that those cheezy fucking Rolex ads may actually be one of the most-viewed portrayals of sailing seen by non-sailing Americans?

 

You see my point?

 

I don't think they have really given much of a fuck lately.  Corporate (SUI) chose not to renew a few regattas this year, and gave the option for national distribs to take over the contracts.  Local is usually a good thing, though I  don't know what is happening with the big check they write to US Sailing every year.

 

There's always Rolex and rafting.



#544 DickDastardly

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 03:47 AM

What you said that I found preposterous was your point that, all because of Rolex, sailing is seen by everybody in America and everybody in the corporate world as a high-end snob sport/activity, and, all because of Rolex, VOR can't get any corporate funding for a US team. That is just ridiculous.

 

The lack of US spectator interest in sailing (and participation in offshore racing) is down to a lot more than that.

Not "all" because of Rolex, but definitely Rolex is the biggest part of it.  I know it sounds crazy, but I really think it is true based on not only their own sponsorship documents but also on what numerous event staffers and other sponsors have told me. Of course there are dozens of reasons sailing is only a tiny blip on the national radar, but in my opinion the biggest single reason that so many people still think sailing = Thurston Howell III in the USA is because of Rolex's deliberate and careful, 40-year long campaign of selective sponsorship, branding, and PR throughout the sport. 

 

Try this:  Add up all Rolex's sailing-based advertisements in every Playboy, Sports Illustrated, Robb Report, and however many other dozens of magazines they advertise in around the country.  Add in all the TV ads and newspaper spots with a guy on a yacht wearing a Rolex.  I really don't know how many of them there are, but I do know that Rolex license fees have funded quite a few sailing photographers' childrens' college tuition, and I do know that I see a few each year and I hardly look at print or TV.

 

Then, add up all the other sailing imagery that reaches millions of eyeballs every year in the USA.

 

What, you say?  You can't think of any other sailing images that reach millions of eyeballs every year in the US?  And that those cheezy fucking Rolex ads may actually be one of the most-viewed portrayals of sailing seen by non-sailing Americans?

 

You see my point?

 

I don't think they have really given much of a fuck lately.  Corporate (SUI) chose not to renew a few regattas this year, and gave the option for national distribs to take over the contracts.  Local is usually a good thing, though I  don't know what is happening with the big check they write to US Sailing every year.

 

There's always Rolex and rafting.

I think that's an excellent and very pertinent analysis Clean.  The Sydney Hobart race became an all maxi event (as far as the media and consuming public is concerned) when Roles started sponsoring.  Prior to that little guys got more oxygen (though it was always the big glamour boats in the forefront to be fair).



#545 Francis Vaughan

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:06 AM

This lawyer had just gotten his first BMW and wanted to show it off to his friends. So he goes motoring up Broadway, and parks at his friends apartment. He was so excited that he forgot to look when he opened the door. Just then, a taxi comes screaming past, removes the open door from the car, along with the guy's forearm.

The guy jumps out of his car and starts screaming, "My BMW, my BMW!" The taxi driver comes running up, and says, "Listen, quieten down, you're in pretty bad shape, your arm was ripped off and you're losing a lot of blood."

The lawyer looks at the bloody stump and starts to yell, "My Rolex, my Rolex!!"

 

This is the real Rolex market.  The aspirationals can't afford $5000 for a Rolex, nor can they afford a BMW.  It won't stop them wanting one, and for those that eventually do make enough money to buy one, it will be one of the first purchases they make.  Even if they still can't realistically afford it. That is what credit is for.  Rolex understands this very well, and so does LVMH.  When you can buy it duty free at an airport it is aspirational. 

 

Want to buy your kid a really nice graduation present?  A Rolex is a good bet.  And so it goes.

 

Eventually it can go too far.  Burberry in the UK has driven its brand so hard that now the chavs wear it, and the brand may never recover.  But they sold a lot.



#546 Heriberto

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:11 AM

The main commercial image I have of sailing is Viagra.... Millions and millions of eyeballs have seen that one (wasn't it in the Super Bowl?), it compares sailing with burly outdoor dudes in their mid-somethings doing active outdoor stuff. 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=y1ZqQ55T25c

 

The next commercial image most people have is people living out their retirement dream by buying that yacht and sailing around the world, thanks to Fidelity Mutual or some other investment ripoff.

 

I'm sure the Rolex sponsorship documents and those inside the bubble would take credit for the sun rising in the East if they could. They sound like political consultants taking credit for their candidate winning.

 

But Christ, we sure have come a long way away from why there are only 2 (3?) entries in the VOR so far.

 

As others have said, the problem VOR is having is that there just isn't any incentive to announce your team until strategically close to the very last minute. VOR is on the hook, financing and building the boats, there is zero ROI in practicing, and zero ROI right up until the day the event happens. In a lot of ways, that holds for negotiating for your team personnel. Maybe you sign them to cheap contracts to lock them in until when you may, or may not, pull the pin, but you have nothing for them to do and no ROI on paying them until you have entered the race and have a boat. Plus, depending on how strong a team you are, the longer you wait, the more leverage you get by waiting. With a one design boat and sail program, there is little advantage to being first, as everyone just copies what the first do that works. 

 

This decision has boxed the event into a very tight corner.  



#547 DickDastardly

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 05:54 AM

This lawyer had just gotten his first BMW and wanted to show it off to his friends. So he goes motoring up Broadway, and parks at his friends apartment. He was so excited that he forgot to look when he opened the door. Just then, a taxi comes screaming past, removes the open door from the car, along with the guy's forearm.

The guy jumps out of his car and starts screaming, "My BMW, my BMW!" The taxi driver comes running up, and says, "Listen, quieten down, you're in pretty bad shape, your arm was ripped off and you're losing a lot of blood."

The lawyer looks at the bloody stump and starts to yell, "My Rolex, my Rolex!!"

 

This is the real Rolex market.  The aspirationals can't afford $5000 for a Rolex, nor can they afford a BMW.  It won't stop them wanting one, and for those that eventually do make enough money to buy one, it will be one of the first purchases they make.  Even if they still can't realistically afford it. That is what credit is for.  Rolex understands this very well, and so does LVMH.  When you can buy it duty free at an airport it is aspirational. 

 

Want to buy your kid a really nice graduation present?  A Rolex is a good bet.  And so it goes.

 

Eventually it can go too far.  Burberry in the UK has driven its brand so hard that now the chavs wear it, and the brand may never recover.  But they sold a lot.

And in sponsoring yachting Rolex's strong brand values reinforce the "aspirational" nature of yachting.



#548 Francis Vaughan

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 07:12 AM

And in sponsoring yachting Rolex's strong brand values reinforce the "aspirational" nature of yachting.

 

Very true.  And around and around we go. 

 

Whether that translates to rich people getting into yachting (as opposed to sailing) I have no idea.  I wonder what the first nice watch Larry bought himself was?



#549 doghouse

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 02:27 PM

The aspirationals can't afford $5000 for a Rolex, nor can they afford a BMW

 

Ok, now we are just getting completely fucking silly.



#550 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 03:02 PM

 

Oh my gentlemen, for the sake of sanity may we please dispense with the unpleasantries? 


I haven't had a good argument with doghouse in years.  Why you want to mess with my fun?

:lol:

 

Hope you like the reference.

 

http://sailinganarch...-man-and-woman/



#551 doghouse

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 03:20 PM

Ha! :D



#552 Francis Vaughan

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 10:08 PM

The aspirationals can't afford $5000 for a Rolex, nor can they afford a BMW

 

Ok, now we are just getting completely fucking silly.

 

Curious which way to take that.  The joke is pretty old, and a BMW is not the expensive car it once was (with quite cheap entry points now).  But it is a premium price for what it is.  Point about a Rolex for this market, is that once you can afford a BMW you can afford a Rolex.  Sure the Rolex is insanely priced compared to a perfectly serviceable watch (if you wear a watch at all) but that isn't the point.  It is jewellery.  Once a certain class of person has the ability to buy the Rolex they will, ahead of a great many other things. 



#553 DickDastardly

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:28 PM

 

The aspirationals can't afford $5000 for a Rolex, nor can they afford a BMW

 

Ok, now we are just getting completely fucking silly.

 

Curious which way to take that.  The joke is pretty old, and a BMW is not the expensive car it once was (with quite cheap entry points now).  But it is a premium price for what it is.  Point about a Rolex for this market, is that once you can afford a BMW you can afford a Rolex.  Sure the Rolex is insanely priced compared to a perfectly serviceable watch (if you wear a watch at all) but that isn't the point.  It is jewellery.  Once a certain class of person has the ability to buy the Rolex they will, ahead of a great many other things. 

BMW's premium market positioning doesn't apply in all markets.  In Australia, yes.  Cultural Cringe 101, but in Europe or the USA not so.  

 

As to the Rolex, Maslow might suggest it wouldn't normally be bought ahead of other things...



#554 doghouse

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:43 PM

 

The aspirationals can't afford $5000 for a Rolex, nor can they afford a BMW

 

Ok, now we are just getting completely fucking silly.

 

Curious which way to take that.  The joke is pretty old, and a BMW is not the expensive car it once was (with quite cheap entry points now).  But it is a premium price for what it is.  Point about a Rolex for this market, is that once you can afford a BMW you can afford a Rolex.  Sure the Rolex is insanely priced compared to a perfectly serviceable watch (if you wear a watch at all) but that isn't the point.  It is jewellery.  Once a certain class of person has the ability to buy the Rolex they will, ahead of a great many other things. 

 

Oh, not saying anything on the joke, it's an oldie but goodie. But to say the aspirational class can't afford a BMW is just downright hilarious. I could drive around tomorrow and take pictures of people who can't afford their rent with BMW's in the driveway. I guess it stands mentioning that this is subject to how you define "afford" as well.

 

But anyway, the point is once everyone has something, it's not exclusive and elite(Adjusted for fleet sales, BMW 3 series have similar sales volumes to Ford Fusions). And BMW's and Rolexes are ubiquitous. Hell, I even have an X5, though my baby doll is a 1995 F350.



#555 Francis Vaughan

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 12:34 AM

Oh, not saying anything on the joke, it's an oldie but goodie. But to say the aspirational class can't afford a BMW is just downright hilarious. I could drive around tomorrow and take pictures of people who can't afford their rent with BMW's in the driveway. I guess it stands mentioning that this is subject to how you define "afford" as well.

 

But anyway, the point is once everyone has something, it's not exclusive and elite(Adjusted for fleet sales, BMW 3 series have similar sales volumes to Ford Fusions). And BMW's and Rolexes are ubiquitous. Hell, I even have an X5, though my baby doll is a 1995 F350.

 

I think you get my point perfectly, and make it even better than I did.  You describe exactly what I was trying to get across.

 

These are brands that are pitched at the wanabes, that will buy/rent even when it makes zero sense.

 

To add, I only know two people with Rolexes. Both are pretty wealthy - one drives an Audi A8, and the other a Merc CL. No BMWs. One bought it because in the markets she works, it is simply required that you wear such a watch.  In many societies and markets a watch is one of those badges that allow people to recognise one another's apparent status. Which can be critical when doing business. Silly, but there it is.



#556 Left Hook

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 01:22 AM

What just happened to this thread:

 

 

n239bde.gif



#557 couchsurfer

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:14 AM

What just happened to this thread:??......

.

 

...it's the new SA 'space-filler' if yer hadn't noticed....when there's not much happening on-topic,,,people start to mill around and bafflegab :mellow:



#558 DtM

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:31 AM

I like "bafflegab" can I use it?

 

It would be nice if this thread got back on topic !!!



#559 flatearth

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:34 PM

Want to know about watches? Look at the wrists of millennials, no watch. Unless the fabled iWatch(wearables) appears and reverses this, then watches are a deadend except for oligarchs and rappers.

Want to know why Rolex (FYI privatly owned by a tax free foundation) is growing and leads the market year after year in COSC? Vertical integration and making the cost to repair a Rolex with genuine Rolex parts 2/3 the cost of a new watch. It is estimated their annual ad budget for 2013 is $80mil in the US.

Clean if you you want to know about Rolex and US Sailing ask me some time.

Except for Annie Lush working out in the SCA gym, I haven't seen any news on the VOR in weeks.

#560 dougal74

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:37 PM

I like "bafflegab" can I use it?

 

It would be nice if this thread got back on topic !!!

So getting back on topic. What is relevant about the whole watch debate is that Richemont (IWC) were originally pitched a VOR 2011-12 lead boat sponsorship by a Slovenian syndicate, which is how VOR became involved to help with the pitch. During the initial stages is looked like a Panerai boat but Richemont got windy about the ROI from a boat campaign and being involved with a syndicate. We then came up with the Official Timekeeper package to keep them involved and then IWC subsequently agreed a smaller deal with ADOR for branding on a boat and athlete(s).

Bringing the likes of Zidane et al made a massive difference to their and the race's ROI so it was very important to have them in the mix. I think it is fair to surmise that "selling" boat/team sponsorship in isolation and as against other sailing inventory packages is pretty tough right now...it may be as simplistic as the $$$ involved with teams (one-design or not) are just too high!?!



#561 doghouse

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:49 PM

Oh, not saying anything on the joke, it's an oldie but goodie. But to say the aspirational class can't afford a BMW is just downright hilarious. I could drive around tomorrow and take pictures of people who can't afford their rent with BMW's in the driveway. I guess it stands mentioning that this is subject to how you define "afford" as well.

 

But anyway, the point is once everyone has something, it's not exclusive and elite(Adjusted for fleet sales, BMW 3 series have similar sales volumes to Ford Fusions). And BMW's and Rolexes are ubiquitous. Hell, I even have an X5, though my baby doll is a 1995 F350.

 

I think you get my point perfectly, and make it even better than I did.  You describe exactly what I was trying to get across.

 

These are brands that are pitched at the wanabes, that will buy/rent even when it makes zero sense.

 

To add, I only know two people with Rolexes. Both are pretty wealthy - one drives an Audi A8, and the other a Merc CL. No BMWs. One bought it because in the markets she works, it is simply required that you wear such a watch.  In many societies and markets a watch is one of those badges that allow people to recognise one another's apparent status. Which can be critical when doing business. Silly, but there it is.

 

Oh, we agree there.

 

I know about 10 trillion (roughly) people with Rolexes though.

 

Want to know about watches? Look at the wrists of millennials, no watch. Unless the fabled iWatch(wearables) appears and reverses this, then watches are a deadend except for oligarchs and rappers.

Want to know why Rolex (FYI privatly owned by a tax free foundation) is growing and leads the market year after year in COSC? Vertical integration and making the cost to repair a Rolex with genuine Rolex parts 2/3 the cost of a new watch. It is estimated their annual ad budget for 2013 is $80mil in the US.
 

 

I'm not sure about the death of the watch, but then again I'm getting old. I sleep, shower and screw with mine on. But more to the point, Rolex has become a volume brand, which I was talking about way back when.

 

I like "bafflegab" can I use it?

 

It would be nice if this thread got back on topic !!!

So getting back on topic. What is relevant about the whole watch debate is that Richemont (IWC) were originally pitched a VOR 2011-12 lead boat sponsorship by a Slovenian syndicate, which is how VOR became involved to help with the pitch. During the initial stages is looked like a Panerai boat but Richemont got windy about the ROI from a boat campaign and being involved with a syndicate. We then came up with the Official Timekeeper package to keep them involved and then IWC subsequently agreed a smaller deal with ADOR for branding on a boat and athlete(s).

Bringing the likes of Zidane et al made a massive difference to their and the race's ROI so it was very important to have them in the mix. I think it is fair to surmise that "selling" boat/team sponsorship in isolation and as against other sailing inventory packages is pretty tough right now...it may be as simplistic as the $$$ involved with teams (one-design or not) are just too high!?!

 

Interesting stuff, thanks for winding back towards the VOR.



#562 Left Hook

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:56 PM

North Sails just posted on their FB that they're shipping a set of VO65 sails for training for a soon-to-be-announced team. By my count this brings the number of confirmed teams to 4. SCA, Abba Dabba, Dongsheng and Mystery #4. Think that this is going for boat #1 or boat 5?

 

578039_739430592738490_1839179727_n.jpg

 

Also, for speculative purposes. The sail identifier code on that sail is MN-P... P being the 17th letter of the alphabet (making this the 17th VO65 main) or P for practice?  



#563 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:02 PM

I'm gonna go with answer B there.



#564 Krashwerks

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 02:41 AM

I thought it prudent to share that the VOR representatives, team managers and cohorts have descended upon Newport.

Such fun to be had in that far away land of the Americas. If we had but world enough and time...

I am certain that Clean will have an update for this thread at the conclusion of the State of Newport/VOR address. I might have a quip or two myself. 



#565 IanMac5873

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 02:49 AM

Article today in the Providence Business News 

http://www.pbn.com/V...n-Newport,93179



#566 mikemt

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:29 PM

from twitter: "Knut at the ports conference today: 3 teams announced, 2 about to do, 2 in advanced title sponsorship discussions, 2 in discussions". Any scoop on who is who?



#567 corkob

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:01 PM

Team Dog Phlegm are looking to recruit Chinese sailing and shore crew. Given the chinese nation has a massive population and a seafaring tradition (albeit Chinese Junks)I wouldn't have thought they would be short. Having said that the US ended up fielding only one American on Team Oracle.....

#568 corkob

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:16 PM

from twitter: "Knut at the ports conference today: 3 teams announced, 2 about to do, 2 in advanced title sponsorship discussions, 2 in discussions". Any scoop on who is who?


Team New Zealand surely. Then the Dutch Team Heiner and a likely British entry. Also The Spanish Pedro Campos Mapfre team

#569 Trov„o

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 10:33 AM

so, when will the rest of the volvo-subsidiaries/joint-ventures-from-all-over-the-world sponsored teams (besides dongfeng, of course) start to pop out into light? 



#570 mikemt

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 09:35 PM

no news from Newport then? 



#571 valenciasailing

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:40 AM

Any guess what this is? DSC_3844_1.JPG



#572 DickDastardly

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:29 AM

Any guess what this is? DSC_3844_1.JPG

Keel cant control panel.  52 bar hydraulic pressure, keel vertical, angle sensor in use?



#573 ITA602

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:10 PM

Is the picture stll reachable or has it been removed?



#574 Bowfoil

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:59 PM

http://www.volvoocea...or-2014-15.html

 

Has ANYONE got any insight in to the two teams in the final stages of being confirmed? Its a little more official now



#575 valenciasailing

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:53 PM

Here's an in-depth video tour of the Team SCA VO65, guided by Sam Davies:

 

https://vimeo.com/80223343



#576 corkob

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:16 PM

Jeez, who put the lights out in that. A torch would have been handy.....!

#577 edouard

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:39 AM

Here's an in-depth video tour of the Team SCA VO65, guided by Sam Davies:

 

https://vimeo.com/80223343

 

Surprised (well, not really) by the problems of water coming through the three "tunnels" straight into the cabine. I know many volvo sailors were involved in the design, but the opinion of IMOCA sailors would probably have avoided this since the design of that part of the boat is clearly derived from IMOCA boats..

 

.



#578 valenciasailing

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 11:33 AM

Bouwe Bekking will present his team on Tuesday, December 3rd



#579 Francis Vaughan

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 11:52 AM

Surprised (well, not really) by the problems of water coming through the three "tunnels" straight into the cabine. I know many volvo sailors were involved in the design, but the opinion of IMOCA sailors would probably have avoided this since the design of that part of the boat is clearly derived from IMOCA boats..

 

This is something that does bother me a bit about the level of OD restrictions here.  In the previous races issues that came to light like this would have been addressed swiftly by the team.  If something became a problem in mid ocean - there would still be a slabs of foam core carbon and lots of epoxy aboard, and a fix would have been fabricated very quickly.  Now it seems the boats must be fully sorted before the start. There is room in the rule to allow modifications to the design, but they must be applied identically to every boat.  As time goes on it will get harder to sort this out.  Also, I wonder how much debug time there will be in really serious weather and sea conditions before the race.  Knowing the boat is fully sorted for the Southern Ocean is not trivial - and mid leg down South is not a good time to discover your OD design has a flaw akin to the tunnel design which you are not allowed to fix.  One hopes there is a clear process to cover such eventualities in place before the race starts, and not something that has to be worked out by the race organisers on the fly.



#580 GBH

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 11:54 AM

Here's an in-depth video tour of the Team SCA VO65, guided by Sam Davies:

 

https://vimeo.com/80223343

 

Surprised (well, not really) by the problems of water coming through the three "tunnels" straight into the cabine. I know many volvo sailors were involved in the design, but the opinion of IMOCA sailors would probably have avoided this since the design of that part of the boat is clearly derived from IMOCA boats..

 

.

 

You could see her struggling to not criticise some of the design 'features' !



#581 nroose

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 01:02 PM

Surprised (well, not really) by the problems of water coming through the three "tunnels" straight into the cabine. I know many volvo sailors were involved in the design, but the opinion of IMOCA sailors would probably have avoided this since the design of that part of the boat is clearly derived from IMOCA boats..

 
This is something that does bother me a bit about the level of OD restrictions here.  In the previous races issues that came to light like this would have been addressed swiftly by the team.  If something became a problem in mid ocean - there would still be a slabs of foam core carbon and lots of epoxy aboard, and a fix would have been fabricated very quickly.  Now it seems the boats must be fully sorted before the start. There is room in the rule to allow modifications to the design, but they must be applied identically to every boat.  As time goes on it will get harder to sort this out.  Also, I wonder how much debug time there will be in really serious weather and sea conditions before the race.  Knowing the boat is fully sorted for the Southern Ocean is not trivial - and mid leg down South is not a good time to discover your OD design has a flaw akin to the tunnel design which you are not allowed to fix.  One hopes there is a clear process to cover such eventualities in place before the race starts, and not something that has to be worked out by the race organisers on the fly.
I was thinking along the same lines a while back. And then I realized that this issue is probably more than offset by other things like the fact that the boats will all benefit from lessons learned by the others and safety was not balanced against performance as much as when the race included a design competition. And even with this problem, unless I'm mistaken, all they had to do was close the doors.

#582 mad

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 01:48 PM

 

Here's an in-depth video tour of the Team SCA VO65, guided by Sam Davies:

 

https://vimeo.com/80223343

 

Surprised (well, not really) by the problems of water coming through the three "tunnels" straight into the cabine. I know many volvo sailors were involved in the design, but the opinion of IMOCA sailors would probably have avoided this since the design of that part of the boat is clearly derived from IMOCA boats..

 

.

 

You could see her struggling to not criticise some of the design 'features' !

The first of many??



#583 Left Hook

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 02:32 PM

No winches for the traveler? Really? That'll be fun during in-port races

#584 Who's your daddy

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 02:59 PM

Surprised (well, not really) by the problems of water coming through the three "tunnels" straight into the cabine. I know many volvo sailors were involved in the design, but the opinion of IMOCA sailors would probably have avoided this since the design of that part of the boat is clearly derived from IMOCA boats..

 

This is something that does bother me a bit about the level of OD restrictions here.  In the previous races issues that came to light like this would have been addressed swiftly by the team.  If something became a problem in mid ocean - there would still be a slabs of foam core carbon and lots of epoxy aboard, and a fix would have been fabricated very quickly.  Now it seems the boats must be fully sorted before the start. There is room in the rule to allow modifications to the design, but they must be applied identically to every boat.  As time goes on it will get harder to sort this out.  Also, I wonder how much debug time there will be in really serious weather and sea conditions before the race.  Knowing the boat is fully sorted for the Southern Ocean is not trivial - and mid leg down South is not a good time to discover your OD design has a flaw akin to the tunnel design which you are not allowed to fix.  One hopes there is a clear process to cover such eventualities in place before the race starts, and not something that has to be worked out by the race organisers on the fly.

Have a look at the class rules and specifically Appendix F. Looks like there is a structure in place to me.



#585 Southern Cross

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 03:02 PM

Anyone catch the rope eye arrangement for the headsails? In, out and down? I didn't catch any lead tracks is that right?

#586 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 04:00 PM

Standard on lots of modern GP offshore boats now.



#587 Southern Cross

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 04:21 PM

I was wondering how the exact setup looked. Anyone have a good picture?

#588 mikemt

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 08:25 PM

Bouwe Bekking will present his team on Tuesday, December 3rd

 

hope the scoop is right, Pierre. This would be good news for the race. 



#589 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 08:54 PM

Bouwe finished raising the necessary budget over a month ago.



#590 Francis Vaughan

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 11:07 PM

Have a look at the class rules and specifically Appendix F. Looks like there is a structure in place to me.

 

There is a mechanism to amend the design.  That is what I meant by "There is room in the rule to allow modifications to the design".  Appendix F provides a way of recording the official changes as part of the rule.  What I don't see is a process by which that is managed.  There needs to be a clear process by which teams can get needed fixes to the boats approved quickly whilst they are on the water.  What you don't want is a whole lot of hand wringing on the part of the organisers about how a fix will affect the OD ethos, and a heap of legalese from the other teams who might not be affected as much.  We saw bad sportsmanship in previous races where a team would overtly refuse permission for something that would aid another team that was in some distress.  Same could still happen here.

 

There needs to be a written process ready before it is needed.  If I am half way across the Southern Ocean and some stupid design issue comes up that could be fixed with a couple of hours work and some carbon and epoxy I want to know that I can fix it. Not wait until the end of the leg and maybe get it fixed for the next leg.  Especially if it is - like the design issue with the tunnels - a significant problem.  Hour after hour of green water coursing across the deck could turn up any number of stupid problems that have so far been missed in less intense conditions.  It might be as simple as a change to the way a few lines are run - but currently it isn't allowed, unless approved by some indistinct process that has no publicly defined guidelines or timeliness constraints. 



#591 VaurienH

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:38 AM

Dutch entrant for the VOR

Team Sailing Holland https://www.facebook.../SailingHolland

Tuesday sponsor will be announced

 

http://nos.nl/artike...ocean-race.html



#592 Royal Flush

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 02:02 PM

Dutch entrant for the VOR

Team Sailing Holland https://www.facebook.../SailingHolland

Tuesday sponsor will be announced

 

http://nos.nl/artike...ocean-race.html

 

Rumour is Brunel



#593 Icedtea

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 03:43 PM

Brunel? 

They've been out of it for a while. Hope they're back in though



#594 mikemt

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 08:54 PM

a pitstop in NL is also rumoured



#595 Heriberto

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:39 AM

VOR is involved in every sponsor negotiation, discussion, agreement. Bug or feature? I like how Knut feels obligated to run down the previous race numbers. It's religion now that somehow the last race was a failure?

#596 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:50 AM

Herb what does that mean?  Or is there a link or something that explains your post?

 

 

Knut feels obligated to run down the previous race numbers. It's religion now that somehow the last race was a failure?



#597 Heriberto

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:03 AM

There is a link above. Newport?

#598 WetHog

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:46 AM

Bouwe Bekking will present his team on Tuesday, December 3rd

 

hope the scoop is right, Pierre. This would be good news for the race. 

 

Yes that would be great news.  Especially with someone like KR out of the race.  Bouwe would be a nice sentimental favorite, especially after how his last VOR ended in embarrassment disappointment.

 

wloak3.jpg

 

sf9bfb.jpg

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#599 Francis Vaughan

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 04:51 AM

Yes that would be great news.  Especially with someone like KR out of the race.  Bouwe would be a nice sentimental favorite, especially after how his last VOR ended in embarrassment disappointment.

 

Ugh, that makes me shudder just to look at it. 



#600 shanghaisailor

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 11:21 AM

Chinese are in

 

Yes, perhaps the real story is who the main sponsor is.  Dongfeng is a state owned vehicle manufacturer with strong ties to Nissan and Peugeot Citroën, and both passenger and commercial vehicle lines.  The sponsor is the commercial vehicle group.  Dongfeng are a direct competitor to the Volvo brand and especially to Geely, the privately owned Chinese car manufacturer that owns Volvo passenger cars, and thus half of the VOR.  If ever the conventional wisdom that Volvo would never allow a competitor car company as a sponsor or team in the race was going to be contradicted, it would never be so emphatic as this.

Actually Volvo Trucks have a significant share in Dongfeng I understand so not ACTUALLY a competitor






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