233 replies to this topic

[Eric]

The race is the weekend of November 10^th. There are 12 boats signed up already. How about yours?

http://roundthecounty.com

[wildangels]

Condo's still available @ Roche....

[Dan R.]

I think this is a good decision -

Submitted by Admin on Tue, 08/28/2012 - 13:04




We are actively working on putting the half way finish line at Ice Berg Point this year. In that case some of the problems with not getting good finish times at Cattle Point should be avoided. The Ice Berg Point is closer to half the distance on that leg anyway. The format would be similar to that used at Patos Island where self recorded times would use a compass heading. Ice Berg Point is the Southern most point in the County and it is advantageous for racers to be as close as possible to an observer onshore, unlike Cattle Point where boats often times pass 2 miles away and observers can't read the sail numbers. We hope this makes everyone happy.

[Mach 5]

If the Muffin is done baking, she will be there!

[HardOnWind]

What happened to all the usual whining about everything?

[hobot]

Let's get Labor Day outta the way first!

[Mistaken]

Labor Day - check...
Now the whining can begin - let me see, where should we start?

[BadKitty]

Anyone know if AYC is going to do a party on Friday night?

[HardOnWind]

Anyone know if AYC is going to do a party on Friday night?

Are you going to bring the Bad Kitty in November?

[Dick Johnson]

You have to ask if there will be a party at AYC? then you've never spent much time there. They alway's party at AYC!

Now I gotta look for that picture of Martha with lifelines and a pullpit all the way around the bowsprit.

[Dick Johnson]

Nigel?

 Martha.jpg   97.19K   47 downloads

[BadKitty]

Are you going to bring the Bad Kitty in November?

Don't sail on Bad Kitty, but love seeing her and Ron and his crew at Swiftsure every year -- good people. No idea if they're coming down for RTC.

You have to ask if there will be a party at AYC? then you've never spent much time there. They alway's party at AYC!

Last year seemed pretty quiet and wrapped up early. Hope they rock it until a little later this year.

[Dick Johnson]

Hmmm, my memory is a bit more hazy with some fun at the YC then that short stumble to the Brown before that 6am wake up......

[wildangels]

AYC does rule the early party scene and will be open in the afternoon to come outa the rain and talk story about what you broke on the delivery up. Likely will be lights out @ 10pm, still gotta take out trash, vacuum, lock up and get ready to race...AYC downtown rocks after that!

[Dick Johnson]

Wow, can't even get Nigel worked up about the lifelines on Martha! Guess he really did get married...

[bizirka]

Looking for 4 or 5 more crew for Chaos (Olson 30), or if anyone needs another on their boat I drop the idea of bringing my boat. THANKS!

[RavenNW]

Raven will be in Anacortes Friday night, hope to have the Van Isle 2013 team aboard. Looking forward to one of our favorite events. Like the concept of Iceberg Point for halfway times.

[Ishtarsdog]

Added Kotuku to the list this morning. We are trying to be a cruiser this fall, but this race is too much fun to pass up. Expect to see us in Anacortes for the Friday night party, on the barge for Saturday night, and at Orcas for the Sunday night festivities. For those who haven't been, the awards party is worth the trip whether you win or not. Good food, nice people, lots of laughs, especially if a certain 70'er and their entertaining crew decides to make the trip.

After the finish, we drop those sorry suckers who have to work off at the Orcas ferry terminal, then zip around the corner to West Sound for the party. Makes for a fitting end to a great weekend of sailing!

[Mach 5]

Added Kotuku to the list this morning. We are trying to be a cruiser this fall, but this race is too much fun to pass up. Expect to see us in Anacortes for the Friday night party, on the barge for Saturday night, and at Orcas for the Sunday night festivities. For those who haven't been, the awards party is worth the trip whether you win or not. Good food, nice people, lots of laughs, especially if a certain 70'er and their entertaining crew decides to make the trip.

After the finish, we drop those sorry suckers who have to work off at the Orcas ferry terminal, then zip around the corner to West Sound for the party. Makes for a fitting end to a great weekend of sailing!

Added Kotuku to the list this morning. We are trying to be a cruiser this fall, but this race is too much fun to pass up. Expect to see us in Anacortes for the Friday night party, on the barge for Saturday night, and at Orcas for the Sunday night festivities. For those who haven't been, the awards party is worth the trip whether you win or not. Good food, nice people, lots of laughs, especially if a certain 70'er and their entertaining crew decides to make the trip.

After the finish, we drop those sorry suckers who have to work off at the Orcas ferry terminal, then zip around the corner to West Sound for the party. Makes for a fitting end to a great weekend of sailing!

..YOU, my friend, know how to party.

[Ishtarsdog]

The Muffin IS the party. But you guys have to come down to the barge on Sat night. No stuffing the crew full of turkey and gravy in the condo and skipping out this year .

[Ishtarsdog]

And the awards party, well, there are sometimes some rowdies there...

Attached Files

•  IMG_047-low.JPG   152.81K   23 downloads

[wildangels]

56 boats and the regatta is in November! Sign up now, don't miss out on 30th anniversary! Band booked for Friday night @ AYC. Do the delivery and double your pleasure or sometimes not, it might rain....

[RavenNW]

Over the years, my boat speed records have been set on the deliverys!

[Capri25]

Sailor Jerry will be in town, looking for a ride. Been in most PNW races, but love this one.
Usual gig is trim (spin, jib, main) but happy as rail meat.
Can meet anywhere-maybe help deliver.
jerry@home-ed-pro.com

[woody]

My Tai is ready. Where's the hendo's and the other tigers?

[Ishtarsdog]

Looks like 71 signed up so far. Hope they let everyone race as the fleet splits look solid top to bottom. Don't they usually cap it about 70?

[Dan R.]

Looks like 71 signed up so far. Hope they let everyone race as the fleet splits look solid top to bottom. Don't they usually cap it about 70?

NOR says the first 68 COMPLETED entries will be ensured a spot. There are only 55 with completed entries but if I were one of the inclomplete entries I would get on it quick.

All the classes look great, but have you seen the big boat class? This is going to be epic!

[sloansailing]

All the classes look great, but have you seen the big boat class? This is going to be epic!

Thats if there is a big boat class after what PHRFNW has done...

[Dan R.]

All the classes look great, but have you seen the big boat class? This is going to be epic!

Thats if there is a big boat class after what PHRFNW has done...

It does seem a bit over the top...but then again I havn't seen the data used by the big boat committee in making these radical adjustments.

[Mistaken]

What data?

The big boat committee pulled it out of thin air with some vague references to ORR in their attempt to justify ratings that are completely out of range with US Sailing National PHRF averages, not to mention reality!

If you believe the new ratings we now by a significant margin have the fastest TP52 on the planet racing here in the PNW, not to mention the fastest 1D48 or the two fastest SC70's -- what were they thinking? To make matters worse they are forcing this change during the racing season, failed to provide the owners with any notice, never asked for their input, and directly violated the PHRF-NW bylaws.

One wonders if they have ever read their own handbook?

And they wonder why the Big Boat Fleet continues to shrink --- #%^&*#@'s...

Attached Files

•  PHRF Big Boat Rating Changes.png   78.8K   201 downloads

[Dan R.]

And here is the other side of the story...

 BBC Final Report 9-26-12.pdf   190.28K   154 downloads

[Asymptote]

What data?

The big boat committee pulled it out of thin air in their attempt to enforce ratings that are completely out of range with reality, not to mention the US Sailing National PHRF averages. According to the new ratings we now have the fastest TP52 on the planet racing in the PNW, not to mention the 1D48, or SC70 -- what were they thinking?

To make matters worse they failed to provide the owners no notice, never asked for their input, and directly violated the PHRF-NW bylaws. One wonders if they have ever read their own handbook?

And they wonder why the Big Boat Fleet continues to shrink --- #%^&*#@'s...

With that many raters (9) involved from so many clubs and some of the raters crewing on some of the boats, I can't imagine there was no owner notification.

Comparing PHRFNW to other PHRF districts is a little apples/oranges as we have been operating in our own little eco-system for the most part. The real question is are these ratings fair between the boats on that list. Nevertheless these changes do seem like pretty big jumps. Are they regressions from recent results?

So, while I don't know about the review process (Have just read the post above, so it looks like the review process was reasonably rigorous on its face), I am a little surprised about the new deltas between these boats and the next division down...some times we are mixed together. I do know we would have jumped from 4th to 1st in Swiftsure with these ratings. Even though we blew out a main and a heavy kite (although everybody had their troubles). But then are these ratings really intended to reach down to the slower boats above 0.

[TeamGladiator]

What data?

To make matters worse they failed to provide the owners with any notice, never asked for their input, and directly violated the PHRF-NW bylaws. One wonders if they have ever read their own handbook?

Read the handbook? Why? They just change the rules as they go... its just easier that way you know...

Hijack//
Its not just the "big boats"; the ratings for PHRF-NW are jacked across the board... to many politics and to many smokey back room deals; to many inactive raters and to many clueless raters. Get rid of all of the ridiculous "credits" for making boats slow would fix most of the problems or dump PHRF-NW and just use the national averages for a few years and things might start to get better.
//Hijack

[dogbone]

For those that fear change.

[tendegreealex]

• haha. Perfect.
• I highly recommend everyone remembers that this whole sailing thing is supposed to be fun.
• Just go out, sail your boats and it will all shake out. Its only Pickledishes =)

[tendegreealex]

Looking forward to a Muffin Ride once again!

[Mistaken]

And here is the other side of the story...

 BBC Final Report 9-26-12.pdf   190.28K   154 downloads

Unfortunately this represents the sum total of the information that was provided the owners along with their new PHRF certificate. In this letter the BBC states that they used "information" from a wide variety of sources, but they thus far have been unable to provide this to ANY of the owners who have requested it...

In addition, in the end they decided without any feedback or owner input to use ORR as the basis for their ratings with a magic conversion formula which they fail to provide -- and all without back testing...

There are the largest changes EVER made in PHRF-NW history with no owner input -- it is no surprise that the Big Boat owners are pissed...

[alymatt]

So who asked for these changes if the Big Boat Owners are so pissed?

I ask this tongue and cheek as obviously it someone in the "group" who's rating has not moved.

I feel most sorry Braveheart - here is a boat owner who would like to sell his boat - good luck now:(

[alymatt]

So who asked for these changes if the Big Boat Owners are so pissed?

I ask this tongue and cheek as obviously it is someone in the "group" who's rating has not moved.

I feel most sorry for Braveheart - here is a boat owner who would like to sell his boat - good luck now:(

[tendegreealex]

I have a lot of respect for the big boat committee. Many hours spent in this. Has to start somewhere.
Instead of complaining, go sail record the results vs the other boats over a year of sailing and bring it to your handicapper. Just a thought. Make this a positive thing that will help sailing in the pnw.

[dogger]

I never really cared for sailing big boats anyway.

[Balder]

and then there was this race called 'Round the County.

[pnwsockpuppet]

Yea there's a race, but it's more fun to bitch about PHRF. All is not lost however, despite boats near her taking huge hits (-25 to-30 seconds, the Swan 45 managed to get a small credit. Apparently advising the PHRF committee can help.


I got a sock puppet, popcorn, beer and a bad attitude..

[dogbone]

I also noticed Jam and Strider did not get there rating changed. who did they have on the BBC ? ????

[dogger]

Yea there's a race, but it's more fun to bitch about PHRF. All is not lost however, despite boats near her taking huge hits (-25 to-30 seconds, the Swan 45 managed to get a small credit. Apparently advising the PHRF committee can help.

[sloansailing]

I have a lot of respect for the big boat committee. Many hours spent in this. Has to start somewhere.
Instead of complaining, go sail record the results vs the other boats over a year of sailing and bring it to your handicapper. Just a thought. Make this a positive thing that will help sailing in the pnw.

That is an interesting approach Alex. Another approach would be for the BBC to back test their new numbers and re-score EXISTING races to see how the results changed. With this information they could approach the owners with the results of re-scoring, and see if it produced fair results in line with the owners' expectations. So far there has been no indication that they re-scored anything with the new numbers. We have done it, and the results are ridiculous.

With all respect, its not just pickle dishes, its A LOT of work, time, money and thought that goes into preparing and sailing boats. I figured you of all people would understand and respect that. Yes its supposed to be fun, but putting in a big effort and being competitive, at least for some people, IS fun, thats why we do it.

A positive thing for sailing in the NW!?! Positive would be to KEEP the people who sail a lot and spend a lot of money in the industry IN the sport. (And FYI I'm not talking about the boat I manage...) The decision of the BBC is having exactly the opposite effect.

[sloansailing]

And here is the other side of the story...

 BBC Final Report 9-26-12.pdf   190.28K   154 downloads

And here is how US Sailing's PHRF technical committee says PHRF ratings are to be established:

"The United States Performance Handicap Racing Fleet Committee (USPHRF) is a technical rule committee of US SAILING that promotes performance handicap racing for monohull and multihull sailing yachts applying the PHRF® rule. The Committee researches, develops, and distributes guidelines for performance handicapping using systematically applied empirical methodology to determine estimates of speed potential."

Further:

"The third is a Graphic Display of Imputed Handicaps as an Analysis Tool that allows sailors and handicappers to develop a picture of whether a given boat is sailing well above its handicap, within expectations, or well below its handicap. By plugging fleet data into a spreadsheet for a series of races, handicappers can develop a picture of how a given boat is performing by calculating an imputed handicap and tracking that in a graph format."

(http://offshore.ussailing.org/PHRF.htm)

Using the tools USPHRF advises to analzye the results of the NW "big boat fleet" and in fact all the way up to the +24 or even +42 raters (that the big boats sometimes race against) produces SIGNIFICANTLY different results from those the BBC produced. In fact, an imputed rating analysis of three years of racing (PHRFNW ratings in the range we are discussing) indicates that no boats are sailing consistently more than 6 seconds per mile faster than their rating, and most are sailing within 3 seconds of their rating, slower or faster.

The tools exist to analyze existing PHRF ratings, it is unfortunate these tools were not used in the decision of the BBC.

[sloansailing]

Apparently advising the PHRF committee can help.

I'm glad the irony of this is not apparent only to me...

[tendegreealex]

So what is for dinner on Saturday night in Roche? No discussion about Salmon Bank? Cmon Where is the fun Stuff? Martha?

[Spreader Boots]

Green Card is married now so he's not allowed on the computer anymore. So the Martha bitching is at a minimum.

[sloansailing]

So who asked for these changes if the Big Boat Owners are so pissed?

I ask this tongue and cheek as obviously it someone in the "group" who's rating has not moved.

I feel most sorry Braveheart - here is a boat owner who would like to sell his boat - good luck now:(

BBC Final Report 9-26-12.pdf

"In recent years it has become clear that there is a problem with the handicap ratings of the
"Big Boats" in our area. Indeed, many complaints about ratings have come from the
owners of very successful boats (how many?, from whom? what boats?) in the Big Boat Fleet that feel that their rating is too slow. About 15 years ago the handicap ratings of boats in this fleet were set as a
whole. Since then there have been many appeals in this fleet, (what appeals? examples?) the appeals have typically been very professionally prepared and presented. Too commonly these presentations were extremely technical and often somewhat confusing, and often resulted in the
appellate boats being given slower ratings. (examples?) The end result has been a significant
compression in ratings of boats in this fleet, resulting in ratings that are fundamentally
golf handicaps rather than speed potential ratings."

I'm not a journalist, but I did learn about the "5 W's" in grade school... NONE of this information was provided with the summary of the rating adjustment in the "BBC Final Report".

[ShockValue]

RtC was my first race. Still has a special place down in my gooey bits someplace. Gonna take some days off work so I can deliver both ways and get the most out of the fun!

[Green Card]

I think this was a good idea that was poorly executed. It reaks of back room dealings when there is no owner input, and no justification or explanation given for how the new numbers were arrived at. Several of the big boat owners had offered to change their ratings earlier in the year; 6-9 seconds in most cases. Instead we end up with the fastest 1D48, TP52, and J/145 in the world. We appealed our rating and got it changed last year, and a key concern was the differences between the ratings, not necessarily the numbers themselves. Flash should be somewhere in the mid 30s. Build the rest of the ratings off that. That, or buy a Swan 45...

[Mach 5]

I have a lot of respect for the big boat committee. Many hours spent in this. Has to start somewhere.
Instead of complaining, go sail record the results vs the other boats over a year of sailing and bring it to your handicapper. Just a thought. Make this a positive thing that will help sailing in the pnw.

That is an interesting approach Alex. Another approach would be for the BBC to back test their new numbers and re-score EXISTING races to see how the results changed. With this information they could approach the owners with the results of re-scoring, and see if it produced fair results in line with the owners' expectations. So far there has been no indication that they re-scored anything with the new numbers. We have done it, and the results are ridiculous.

With all respect, its not just pickle dishes, its A LOT of work, time, money and thought that goes into preparing and sailing boats. I figured you of all people would understand and respect that. Yes its supposed to be fun, but putting in a big effort and being competitive, at least for some people, IS fun, thats why we do it.

A positive thing for sailing in the NW!?! Positive would be to KEEP the people who sail a lot and spend a lot of money in the industry IN the sport. (And FYI I'm not talking about the boat I manage...) The decision of the BBC is having exactly the opposite effect.

.... So it IS the pickle dish.. All crews put in a big effort, all competitive boats spend lots of money making the boat go, competition and whining do not go hand in hand. Seriously, if all you big guys take your expensive toys and go home because you do not like the rules, then it is you who will be missing all the fun, adventure, and challenge.

NOW BACK to Round the County chatter, PLEASE! This Hijack is now declared officially over..
If you guys want to bitch about your ratings, check the heading of this topic. I don't see ' Big boats get screwed by PHRFNW' anywhere in this title.

On to dinner.. Most likely Thankgsiving again, but with an amazing shore crew this year, I expect Muffin will be bringing more courses. Perhaps some specialty cocktails as well..

........ IF we can get her in the water again.......

[pnwsockpuppet]

The approach thet the BBC took would be fine if the boats actually have (or even had) ORR certificates for their current configuration. In most cases they used what little ORR data they had from “similar boats” and then said “well, this boat is slower than that boat, so let’s make it slower…If they wanted to use ORR and then “convert” to PHRF, then ask the boat owners to get a cert and let the chips fall where they may, but slapping a 8% (400 ft/mile) penalty on most of the boats just because someone doesn’t like it is just plain wrong. If you go back and rescore, which I also did, you can see that it just doesn’t make any sense. Of course, this is great for me, because it’ll be impossible for any of the negative raters (except maybe big bird) to ever come close in the overalls, but when are you going to get to the next class, when is it my turn.
I know many of the people on the committee, and believe them to be honest, fair and reasonable people, so how did they come to these conclusions? Bad data? Biased interpretations of that data? Many of the people in the Big Boat class can spend their way out of the problem or just vote with their feet and move on to something else, I can do neither, all I can say is don’t try it on my class.

Or maybe I can afford a Swan 45...

[Asymptote]

I also noticed Jam and Strider did not get there rating changed. who did they have on the BBC ? ????

These two would probably be the first two boats on that list where a drop in rating (slower) might be justified.



And in response to "10degrees": If the BBC didn't compare and rescore "over a year of sailing" results to come to their conclusion, what would going through another year of competition do? If in fact you could pry some of these boats off the dock to go race carrying new 20 to 40 second a mile hits?

If, as I have been informed, owners were not involved, then how do rating changes made not in conformance with the PHRF handbook create a "positive thing"? Just sending a letter out after posting the new ratings on the web site, as appears to have happened, does't cut it.

And really, what's the story with the Swan 45?

No...I don't have a dog in this fight, or a boat on the list. I'm actually a huge beneficiary. But a puzzled one.

[Asymptote]

OK....Back to Round the County.

I propose that the RTC Committee use the ratings published previous to these recent changes for handicapping this year's race.

[dogbone]

And here is the other side of the story...

 BBC Final Report 9-26-12.pdf   190.28K   154 downloads

And here is how US Sailing's PHRF technical committee says PHRF ratings are to be established:

"The United States Performance Handicap Racing Fleet Committee (USPHRF) is a technical rule committee of US SAILING that promotes performance handicap racing for monohull and multihull sailing yachts applying the PHRF® rule. The Committee researches, develops, and distributes guidelines for performance handicapping using systematically applied empirical methodology to determine estimates of speed potential."

Further:

"The third is a Graphic Display of Imputed Handicaps as an Analysis Tool that allows sailors and handicappers to develop a picture of whether a given boat is sailing well above its handicap, within expectations, or well below its handicap. By plugging fleet data into a spreadsheet for a series of races, handicappers can develop a picture of how a given boat is performing by calculating an imputed handicap and tracking that in a graph format."

(http://offshore.ussailing.org/PHRF.htm)

Using the tools USPHRF advises to analzye the results of the NW "big boat fleet" and in fact all the way up to the +24 or even +42 raters (that the big boats sometimes race against) produces SIGNIFICANTLY different results from those the BBC produced. In fact, an imputed rating analysis of three years of racing (PHRFNW ratings in the range we are discussing) indicates that no boats are sailing consistently more than 6 seconds per mile faster than their rating, and most are sailing within 3 seconds of their rating, slower or faster. So when ICON Stated on her web site that she would have won all the same races at -84 as she did at -69 that she is not sailing faster than her rating?

The tools exist to analyze existing PHRF ratings, it is unfortunate these tools were not used in the decision of the BBC.

[dogbone]

I also noticed Jam and Strider did not get there rating changed. who did they have on the BBC ? ????

These two would probably be the first two boats on that list where a drop in rating (slower) might be justified.



And in response to "10degrees": If the BBC didn't compare and rescore "over a year of sailing" results to come to their conclusion, what would going through another year of competition do? If in fact you could pry some of these boats off the dock to go race carrying new 20 to 40 second a mile hits?

If, as I have been informed, owners were not involved, then how do rating changes made not in conformance with the PHRF handbook create a "positive thing"? Just sending a letter out after posting the new ratings on the web site, as appears to have happened, does't cut it.

And really, what's the story with the Swan 45?

No...I don't have a dog in this fight, or a boat on the list. I'm actually a huge beneficiary. But a puzzled one.

Looking at the other Swan 45 on the West Coast it rates -15. that boat has mast head spinnakers and 155% headsails. if you look at the southern california phrf site. my math skills are a little rusty but that looks like 15 to 18 seconds in rating hits up here. so if you where to bring that boat here would it rate?

[Mistaken]

US Sailing annually publishes a list of the base ratings for each standard type of boat (see comparison in an earlier post). All the regional PHRF organizations contribute to this list at it represents the most accurate data available on an aggregate national basis as to what the PHRF sailing community thinks the observed performance is for each boat type.

As you can see from the earlier comparison the new PHRF-NW big boat ratings are completely out of line with the national averages - not just for one or two boats, but for the ENTIRE FLEET -- this doesn't make sense. Had the BBC done even a little back-testing with these new ratings they would have clearly seen that it completely changes race results in a major way (more on this in a few days). In addition, when these boats race out of the area representing the PNW they will immediately be at a huge disadvantage.

This discrepancy started when BBC attempted to use ORR ratings and back convert them to PHRF using their own choice of wind models and conversion factors. Many of the boats didn't even have an ORR rating so they just guessed. None of this was statistically tested or verified -- in fact, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that this entire process is flawed and should have never been started. ORR is a measurement based system that is completely different in its approach wherein PHRF is based on observed performance. Furthermore, when you rate with ORR you should score with ORR.

Anyway, this issue will continue until the PHRF Board of Directors reigns in the BBC and gets them to act according to their published bylaws, one of the key items being that owners are to be provided the opportunity to provide input when their ratings are being changed, an opportunity they were not provided in this case.

PHRF also doesn't seem to understand that there is more at stake here than they realize -- the actions of the BBC are seriously undermining PHRF-NW's credibility and in doing so people will sail somewhere else - ever wonder why some of the one-design fleets are doing so well in the PNW?

To be continued...

[PDG]

A PHRF certificate is 45bucks a pop.

I understand the frustration with the changes made by the BBC, but much of the expectations voiced smack of caviar dreams on a mac and cheese budget.

We get what we pay for. As soon as all owners, from Santana 22 up to TP-52 are willing to accept an expensive (by an order of magnitude at least) certificate program that is professionally designed and operated, we will have to muddle through with the volunteer amateur program we have now.

[Mistaken]

It doesn't have to been that hard -- other regions have well managed PHRF fleets on a mac & cheese budget. They have well defined processes, they collect & analyze data and race results, and make statistically verifiable changes in an organized manner -- being a single number system PHRF can work amazingly well even with a volunteer program!

[PDG]

I'm not saying it can't. I'm saying that expecting it to may be unrealistic.

[sloansailing]

So when ICON Stated on her web site that she would have won all the same races at -84 as she did at -69 that she is not sailing faster than her rating?

Not consistently. The imputed rating tool compares a boats finish time to the top three finishers in a race. So, if you finish first, you are sailing faster than the average of the top three boats. The first place boat is considered to be sailing faster than its rating, thats how it won...

But when you average many races, including the races a boat doesn't win, you come up with a consistent average imputed rating. The races that a boat loses results in an imputed rating that is slower than its rating. Averaging all these numbers over a long period of time and many races results in pretty accurate imputed ratings.

So yes, ICON would have won the races she did even with a rating of -84, but to win the races she didn't win, would need a rating much slower... Does this make sense? The same is true for all boats. Use the imputed rating tool for a bunch of races and see what the imputed rating is for the winner of each race... It will always be equal to or faster than its actual rating. Its the AVERAGE of all these imputed ratings over many races that are meaningful.

[Ballard Sailor]

Well I just wish you guy's would figure this out so I can get a rating for my boat and get into that completed category on the site. Seems their busy with this biggie boat thingy.

[sloansailing]

.... So it IS the pickle dish.. All crews put in a big effort, all competitive boats spend lots of money making the boat go, competition and whining do not go hand in hand. Seriously, if all you big guys take your expensive toys and go home because you do not like the rules, then it is you who will be missing all the fun, adventure, and challenge.

Somehow I think you would be saying something different if the PHRF committee came along and knocked your rating down under 100 but left many of the boats you compete against where they are...

[PDG]

.... So it IS the pickle dish.. All crews put in a big effort, all competitive boats spend lots of money making the boat go, competition and whining do not go hand in hand. Seriously, if all you big guys take your expensive toys and go home because you do not like the rules, then it is you who will be missing all the fun, adventure, and challenge.

Somehow I think you would be saying something different if the PHRF committee came along and knocked your rating down under 100 but left many of the boats you compete against where they are...

And your bias has not peeked out in much of what you have posted?

Have you considered that maybe you have become entirely too accustomed to showing up at a knife fight with a bazooka?

[Dan R.]

Well I just wish you guy's would figure this out so I can get a rating for my boat and get into that completed category on the site. Seems their busy with this biggie boat thingy.

The person at PHRF-NW who processes the paperwork is on vacatoin until 10/9. If you need your rating sooner you should talk to your club rater or the chief handicapper.

[Ballard Sailor]

Got one of the directors on it and he sent me an email last night that it was done. Phew! been worried about making it as crew from florida has already booked their flights.

Does Martha qualify as a Big Boat?

[Mach 5]

.... So it IS the pickle dish.. All crews put in a big effort, all competitive boats spend lots of money making the boat go, competition and whining do not go hand in hand. Seriously, if all you big guys take your expensive toys and go home because you do not like the rules, then it is you who will be missing all the fun, adventure, and challenge.

Somehow I think you would be saying something different if the PHRF committee came along and knocked your rating down under 100 but left many of the boats you compete against where they are...

No, No I would not, as a matter of fact.
But IF I were to, I would not be hijacking a thread about Round the County!
Internet etiquette is all I am asking...

[Mistaken]

Okay everyone -- back to lifelines and Salmon Bank!

[Ishtarsdog]

Well, as the victim of a massive -27 second rating hit this summer, I feel the pain. We lost a 2000 mile race by 1.5 seconds/mile. The boat that beat us? Usually they owe us 9 seconds/mile. PHRF sucks. But we are stuck with it.

Didn't make me want to do the Pac Cup again though.

All Kotuku crew locked and loaded. Planning to be at AYC

[Bob Perry]

"Internet etiquette" on Sailing Anarchy?
That's a novel approach. I don't come here for "etiquette"

[Mach 5]

"Internet etiquette" on Sailing Anarchy?
That's a novel approach. I don't come here for "etiquette"

STAY ON TOPIC PERRY!!


Talk about a ratings hit.. The big question is can Muffin go inside the Salmon Bank bouy this year, with all of the changes!?!?!?

[tendegreealex]

.... So it IS the pickle dish.. All crews put in a big effort, all competitive boats spend lots of money making the boat go, competition and whining do not go hand in hand. Seriously, if all you big guys take your expensive toys and go home because you do not like the rules, then it is you who will be missing all the fun, adventure, and challenge.

Somehow I think you would be saying something different if the PHRF committee came along and knocked your rating down under 100 but left many of the boats you compete against where they are...

No, No I would not, as a matter of fact.
But IF I were to, I would not be hijacking a thread about Round the County!
Internet etiquette is all I am asking...

Way to Go Mach 5.
I dont care if your rating goes to -108 I am still Sailing on the Muffin.

[Bob Perry]

Mach:
I give up. I gave up on PHRF long ago. I volunteered to help over and over and I was ignorred. I spend my life trying to figure out boat speeds. I get calls from all over the US asking me about boats and ratings. But in Seattle I am blown off. They didn't like Jesus in Nazareth. That's the way I like to think of it. God forbid someone who knows about boat design should threaten the powers that be. Or maybe they just know I'm not a nice person and they like to keep me at arm's distance. Gary Mauer used to call me. Hell, even old Walt ( remember one red sock one green sock, father of PNW PHRF Walt?") he'd call me. I'm sure you don't remember him You weren't born yet. I can't even remember his last,,,,yes I do,,,wait,,,,,,Walt Little. He got PHRF started in Seattle. He would call me. But these whippersnappers know everything. My input is not needed.
Rant over.

[tendegreealex]

Lets see if we can Do this again at RTC. A fun Ride for sure.
Maybe with Right Side Up Sail numbers?

Attached Files

•  MuffinRTC.jpg   41.3K   36 downloads

[Mach 5]

Lets see if we can Do this again at RTC. A fun Ride for sure.
Maybe with Right Side Up Sail numbers?

The numbers were not my responsibilty.. I blame Splash.

[foredeckC22]

Lets see if we can Do this again at RTC. A fun Ride for sure.
Maybe with Right Side Up Sail numbers?

The numbers were not my responsibilty.. I blame Splash.

Numbers were in the back of the boat. Not my department.

"Internet etiquette" on Sailing Anarchy?
That's a novel approach. I don't come here for "etiquette"

STAY ON TOPIC PERRY!!


Talk about a ratings hit.. The big question is can Muffin go inside the Salmon Bank bouy this year, with all of the changes!?!?!?

Why wouldn't we go inside Salmon Bank this year?!?! The new bulb keel isn't that much deeper...

[Ballard Sailor]

The rudder is the problem

[sloansailing]

But IF I were to, I would not be hijacking a thread about Round the County!
Internet etiquette is all I am asking...

Note that I had a one line post about the big boat ratings followed by 16 responses from other people about it before I posted again. I am hardly the only one "hijacking" this thread.

I agree with Bob, internet "etiquette"? Really? Especially on this site? "Etiquette" would be people using their real names and not hiding behind screen names to post shit they won't say to peoples face.

Haven't seen SI's yet but I think the Salmon Bank issue is a moot point with the half way times moved to Iceberg Point.

Didn't make me want to do the Pac Cup again though.

Exactly. Us either.

[PDG]

Lets see if we can Do this again at RTC. A fun Ride for sure.
Maybe with Right Side Up Sail numbers?

The numbers were not my responsibilty.. I blame Splash.

Nope, that was me. Did it accidentally, then left it that way on purpose. It was way funnier in my head.

[dogbone]

But IF I were to, I would not be hijacking a thread about Round the County!
Internet etiquette is all I am asking...

Note that I had a one line post about the big boat ratings followed by 16 responses from other people about it before I posted again. I am hardly the only one "hijacking" this thread.

I agree with Bob, internet "etiquette"? Really? Especially on this site? "Etiquette" would be people using their real names and not hiding behind screen names to post shit they won't say to peoples face.

Haven't seen SI's yet but I think the Salmon Bank issue is a moot point with the half way times moved to Iceberg Point.

Didn't make me want to do the Pac Cup again though.

Exactly. Us either.

could not had anything to do with the 14 people and extra gear to support? or taking the spinn down when it was to "Windy" ?

[sloansailing]

could not had anything to do with the 14 people and extra gear to support? or taking the spinn down when it was to "Windy" ?

Wow really taking it to me! We had 12 people actually. How we performed during Pac Cup is a separate topic from the topic of what rating the OA decided to give us. If you would like to discuss either in detail I'd be happy to, but somehow I think you won't.

Who are you? Besides some sock puppet hiding behind your screen name... You want to talk smack then sign your name.

[Ballard Sailor]

We're gonna kick your ass, Ben.

[n00b]

I liked one of the proposals that the RC accept the old PHRF NW ratings for DivX for this installment, but honestly we're going to have fun no matter what because the race is just so epic! Seems like some of the DivX boats are sailing Foulweather Bluff tomorrow using new ratings, should be super fun to see if Artemis, Stider, and Free Byrd are really 30 - 40 sec a mile slower than the Wasabi in the predicted conditions.

[Dan R.]

I have the greatest respect for those on the BBC who spent a lot of time on this project, but I too would like to see these changes deferred until input is heard from all owners before and/or during the January handicappers meeting.

We have the chance to see an epic big boat fleet battle it out this year and it would be a shame if any were to drop because of this controversy. I also have no desire to get a leg up in the overall standings because of possibe errors by the BBC.

[pnwsockpuppet]

I think when the numbers were presented to the BBC for consideration, the phrase "Fair and Bananced" must have been in the mind of the inventor of the "facts" that were used.
I suspect his speech sounsed something like this: "No doubt these 47%ers from the big boats feel that they are dependent on PHRF, they believe they are victims and that PHRF has a responsability to care for them, they believe they are entitled to a good rating,free docage at all the races, owners daughters, and a pickle dish at the end. you name it! Well, I know what to do about these people, let's just sit on them and give them a ratings haircut, that'll show them"

Just because someone says it a couple of times doesn't make it true.

[Cap't Billy]

What data?

The big boat committee pulled it out of thin air with some vague references to ORR in their attempt to justify ratings that are completely out of range with US Sailing National PHRF averages, not to mention reality!

If you believe the new ratings we now by a significant margin have the fastest TP52 on the planet racing here in the PNW, not to mention the fastest 1D48 or the two fastest SC70's -- what were they thinking? To make matters worse they are forcing this change during the racing season, failed to provide the owners with any notice, never asked for their input, and directly violated the PHRF-NW bylaws.

One wonders if they have ever read their own handbook?

And they wonder why the Big Boat Fleet continues to shrink --- #%^&*#@'s...

In May of this year I was asked for input:

Bill:

As referenced in the note from Roger Kibble, I'm doing some work looking at the ORR numbers to see if we can have a reasonable formula to convert ORR data to PHRF numbers. I expect we will have some success here.

To help "ground truth" the proposed answers..

What do you think some of the final answers should be? What I'm looking for is something as follows:

LD (Lawdart) should be about even with Boat A

LD should give Boat B about 9 to 12 seconds

LD is slower than Boat C by 15 to 20 seconds

Boat C should be equal to Boat D, maybe a touch faster

Etc.,

Same question asked differently: Which boats do you think are significantly wrongly rated today (e.g. by more than 3 or 6 seconds)? Also let me know if you think the spread between some boats is OK, too small or needs to be increased.

Based on various notes I have seen, there seems to be good momentum to actually do something.

Thanks,

.Ron

It’s a Speed Potential Handicap System. The “P” stands for Pacific - not Performance. It is unfortunate that the Acronym, and the view of US Sailing, cause confusion but PHRF NW has been around longer than US Sailing has had an interest in the name.

Observed performance is (intended to be) only another tool PHRF NW has to refine the ratings when measurements and comparables don’t prove to provide an accurate determination of actual performance – which is often.

It’s a fifty dollar a year handicap system run by volunteers. Some sailors squeal about that modest cost. It gets close enough to score our racing. I am just so happy that someone else will volunteer to do all the thankless work that, I know firsthand, goes into running our simple rating system. It manages to balance off main stream acceptance, cost of administration, complexity and usefulness.

For my part, before I start complaining about my rating, I recognize that there is a long way to go before I am closing in on my boat’s speed potential. Those six or twelve seconds a mile will not even approach improving my results as much as avoiding the car crashes and blunders I make around the race course. And I’m not alone others in my fleet have provided me with considerable entertainment in this regard as well! When we consider the quality of our boat preparation, the continuity and just the adequate numbers of (not too hung over) crew and the brains on board how close do you think you are getting to that speed potential ideal? Because that is what your PHRF NW Speed Potential Rating is supposed to mean. A perfectly prepared boat sailed by the correct number of experts sailors.

Like I bet everyone else I was surprised by the magnitude of the adjustments. Someone pointed out there has been a lot of compression in the ratings over the years. It is my sense too that the faster ratings (bigger boats) have become slower and the trend diminishes as the ratings get slower.

These broad strokes cause me worry for the credibility of the system but they do build in a gap, at the fast end at least, where ratings across divisions can be stretched out again – which I think would improve the handicap game for the whole fleet. Someone pointed out how limiting these adjustments in the way they are is a huge gimme for AyTote and the rest of the fast 40 fleet – with whom we often find ourselves commingled. In my opinion, for these adjustments to work, they need to be applied across other divisions also. If we grabbed the ends of the ratings spectrum and stretched them out (slower boats rating even slower) I bet we could once and for all get rid of the compound error introduced by time on time scoring - which is the solution many organizers use to try to adjust for the perceived advantage big boats have in a fleet with wide ratings spreads.

[Mistaken]

A couple of comments on Cap't Billy's insightful post:

• you cannot convert ORR to PRHF -- they are completely different rating systems and the people who manage ORR themselves say not to do it -- if you are going to rate using ORR then you need to score using ORR.
  
• in order to get a PHRF rating from ORR (ignoring their advice), you have to come up with a wind matrix which you are going to use plus a very magic formula. This wind matrix changes with each race or is set by the RC ahead of time. Since ORR is a very complex measurement-based system (and is non-linear like a VPP), there are no easy formulas which you could say plug into a spreadsheet for mapping it back to PHRF, and especially a simple linear one like the BBC probably used.
  
• ORR is designed for offshore use and was never intended for use for inshore racing. In recent years they have added windward/leeward averages (again based on a wind matrix) to make it more useful in offshore events. This has not been received with great success in comparison to IRC.
  
• ORR was also not intended for use in mixed fleets -- ie, where a portion of the fleet is rated using ORR and then merged with another fleet rated with a different metric (like what the BBC is trying to do in this case).
  
• both ORR and IRC can be type formed by designers -- PHRF cannot since it is based on observed performance ORR and IRC try to work around this by keeping their VPPs secret and making tweeks each year -- however in the end the good designers and those with a lot of $$$ to throw at new boats every few years always find a way around this.
  
• in reference to the Roger Kibble note -- the big boat owners have created such a comparative list and have presented it to PHRF. This list was based on years of head-to-head racing and the input of most owners. The BBC has ignored this input and instead without owner input or comment have come up with their own ratings.

[pnwsockpuppet]

First of all, I comment your effort to invent a new rating system which is as accurate as ORR, IRC, IMS, OIR etc but doesn;t require any detailed maesurments and won't cost anything to administr. Once the final solution is perfected, wou will applying it to the rest of the fleet?

So, if you were going on this majical crack-induced ORR to PHRF adventure may I suggest 3 things:

1) Do not attempt to represent your work as anything else other then "I'm creating a new rating system that sounds like the other one but it's not" idea that it is. Let's call it "MyPhrf...no no...iPHRF, sonunds friendlier. that way when we travel to other venues, we can use the real PHRF number
2) please include a footnote with each new iPHRF calculation that states in really big type "The people who invented the system I'm trying to rip off expressly state that what I'm doing can't be done and is mathmatically impossible", but I'm an idiot so I'm trying anyway"
3) Use real ORR numbers for the boats you are forcing new ratings to, not ones you pulled out of your ass which you believe "represent" other boats, state as fact and then derive new ratings from as if they mean anything. . the second derivitive of bullshit is still shit.
Smacks of "trickle down" ratings to me....

[Cap't Billy]

There was Americap then Americap II. I remember calling them IMS light. I think it was because a full on IMS rating cost a lot. The Americaps’ were a way of trying to bring a (nother!) measurement formula to the masses. ORR was an outgrowth of all of them. It was never a big hit with sailors – did they ever top 700 members?

It was still too expensive for Ma and Pa, local, handicap racer – and it took a fair bit to get boat measured – even if there was a sistership in the data base. Repeatability of those measurements across measurers would seem to me another difficulty just to start with.

Does it seem impossibly simplistic to think you can glean the performance of a boat in various winds on a polar chart of angles purely based on a bunch of measurements? That is the claim of a measurement formulas going back to the dark ages of IOR. Some big random leg, off wind and long distance races liked it for that very complete adjustability and the willingness of the committee to tailor it to the expected conditions of the course. Even I might be persuaded that is the best use of the ORR system and even maybe the best option available for those races.

If it were possible to so exactly predict a boats performance based on measurements don’t you think designers would want to know that – you know “your new boat designed exactly to your performance specifications”. I know they try that but it is anything but that exact and we haven’t even started about then trying to find the unmeasured performance loopholes.

Then there is the issue of trying to accurately rate what comes to the start line. ORR fully disclose that their system will always be unable to fairly rate what they call “poorly designed boats”. By that I guess they mean Hobie 33s (long and skinny) and Ultimate 20s and open 50s (short and fat) and other canters and water ballast. But not just those ORR has trouble with Cal 29 and C&Cs and Catalina whatevers too. Every inch you stray from a fairly modern, decent 12000 lb., 40 foot all round performer takes you further out of the ORR comfort zone and into an area where the veracity of the handicaps is less certain.

In order for a handicapping system to gain critical mass it needs to appeal to the large majority of designs already tied to the dock. The pointy end of the spear will demand more and be willing to pay more and while they guide a certain complexity of handicapping, which is purported to more accurately score handicap racing, because they are a speciality they will never get to be mainstream. Because there is never enough of them around your Wednesday night racing is unlikely to be scored with the “in style” measurement formula of the day.

Did I read some place that there were more than 20,000 members of PHRFs? Various new systems and proponents have come along over the years but displacing that kind of momentum is going to be tough. Obviously PHRFs get some things right. I’d say we are better off trying to fix it than start over.

A couple of years ago a wise old sailor, that everyone here knows - who I won't mention because he is shy! - told me that, “PHRF is a superior handicapping system suffering from terrible management, distribution and PR.” I think it was IRC he was comparing when he said: “IRC is an inferior system blessed with organized management and excellent promotion”. When you believe you are believed! But nope it doesn’t look IRC (do I even have those letters right!?) caught on either – at least not out here in the sticks!

[pnwsockpuppet]

I went through all of those, and the reason PHRF sticks around is that in the end it can be changed based on "observed performance" , pretty simple. You win too much, expect a hit, you lose to much, make a case.
Big sweeping changes like this just piss people off. Some owners will argue for a fix, and others will just walk away. Nobody wins. It doesn't bring more people to the party, it doesn't level the playing field, it just calls into question the very method we use to determine who had a good day, and who should consider paddleboarding as a new hobby

[pogmothoin]

It is a shame that badly sailed boats get rewarded for their own imcomptence and well sailed boats get punished.

The big boats were lining up to get some good racing with close ratings until this fubar adjustment punishing the seriously campaigned boats.

Dark Star is just sailed that good so should not get screwed for being such a great sailor.

You know its bad when you feel sorry for sailors and boats you dont like, both get their ratings changed from -24 to -51.

[Asymptote]

It is a shame that badly sailed boats get rewarded for their own imcomptence and well sailed boats get punished.

The big boats were lining up to get some good racing with close ratings until this fubar adjustment punishing the seriously campaigned boats.

Dark Star is just sailed that good so should not get screwed for being such a great sailor.

You know its bad when you feel sorry for sailors and boats you dont like, both get their ratings changed from -24 to -51.

These ratings changes have to be withdrawn. But so should your last sentence. What are you on about?

When only two boats fit your category and you claim they are "sailors and boats you don't like", you better be just trying to be funny and failing miserably.

The worst of all rating worlds happened this weekend. Sailing TOT in light air on a boat with an unchanged rating against some of the -0 fleet. The PHRF rating band for TOD stretched itself out approximately 3X. Had Wasabi not parked it up, they would have owed us 1 1/2 hours on a 26 mile race with their new rating plus the TOT idiocy.

OK: This is from somebody who just won their class against the 0 raters. Will somebody please kill TOT. Will somebody please withdraw these changes?

I don't want to sail stupid events.

[Mistaken]

The TOD vs TOT is another question -- I did a little analysis on this last year using 3 years of racing results scoring it both ways. Statically TOD clearly resulted in more consistent results given the variable conditions & currents here in the PNW. The numbers also clearly showed that TOT does best when used wtih events where the sailing conditions (current & winds) are relatively consistent throughout the course & race...

Now back to the hijacked thread -- where were we? Oh yes -- the Big Boat ratings fiasco and RTC...

[BigGuyWithPinkHat]

The TOD vs TOT is another question -- I did a little analysis on this last year using 3 years of racing results scoring it both ways. Statically TOD clearly resulted in more consistent results given the variable conditions & currents here in the PNW. The numbers also clearly showed that TOT does best when used wtih events where the sailing conditions (current & winds) are relatively consistent throughout the course & race...

Now back to the hijacked thread -- where were we? Oh yes -- the Big Boat ratings fiasco and RTC...

We use TOT for club races but we use the High, Medium, Low wind range factor in the equation like US Sailing used to recommend. So in real light winds it reduces the advantage given to the slower boats that TOT might otherwise give. The results are good.

[ShockValue]

I just pray that the parties aren't a continuation of this thread <grin>

I know the conversation has validity, but lets also have some fun

[Balder]

And then there was this race called round the county.

I'm going to miss my Friends on Hravn an Vitesse. But we will be doing the round the island race, Hong Kong island that is, same weekend. And since it will likely be around 75-80 deg and no foul weather gear I won't be missing it so much at that moment.

But when we get back and I reminisce about coming home from RTC in a gale. Or six hours on the rail with an icy wave over your head every few minutes. Well, somehow I WILL miss it. There is just nothing like dinner and drinks in the cabins at Roche and wandering the docks in the dark and cold, looking at all the sweet boats and seeing some ppl that I rarely see anywhere else.

[Ishtarsdog]

Round the Island race is not a bad substitute for RTC. Watch out for the massive wind holes...just like RTC. The year I did it there were 49ers zipping through the fleet, and Jelik, Ffree Fire and the other big boats blasting around the east end, all this happening despite the 5000 ship movements/day in the confines of Victoria Harbour. Memorable.

But I would still rather be in the San Juans. The ripping reaches, the Turn Point and Peapod rock tactical decisions, the close racing with good fleets of evenly matched boats. This is as good as it gets in the NW. Ratings be damned! I can't wait.