31 replies to this topic

[flojo]

There's a new contender in the 8 meter sportboat market: Saphire 27.

 saphire27onwater.jpg   140.91K   116 downloads

 saphire27sailplan.jpg   34.28K   91 downloads

Keel type retractable keel Length overall 8.00 m 26.25 ft Beam 2.50 m 8.20 ft Draft 1.70 m 5.58 ft Total weight 1150 kg 2535 lbs Ballast weight 500 kg 1102 lbs Main sail area 29.00 m² 312.15 ft² Genoa area (fock) 15.00 m² 161.46 ft² Mast height 10.50 m 34.45 ft Height with ballast 1.70 m 5.58 ft Length for transport 8.00 m 26.25 ft Category CE C - 6 Designer Claudio Maletto

Saphire Boats were founded by former European A Class Champion Michi Tobler.
The design team is from Italy, headed by Claudio Maletto (Prada Luna Rossa).
Sailaway price is about 60 k$ (standard sails, excl. VAT and delivery).

[Tejano]

Really attractive package. And how is this relevant on the US side of the pond when most builders can't give away their stock in this market? I'd purchase a West Coast Dart long before this EU beauty.

[Christian]

Wouldn't necessarily call it a sportboat and as you can see on the website it is floated as a family mini cruiser (just look at the list of accessories and options). That being said - it does have a fair bit of SA for that kind of boat and with somewhat limited RM (ballast weight and a short keel) it will definitely feel sporty/a bit tippy. The sprit is really short and there is no mention of kite area - judging purely from the pics it seems to be a realtively small kite - 6-700 sqf maybe. Will be interesting to see how fast it turns out to be

[Speng]

IRC sportboat

[Ryley]

Wouldn't necessarily call it a sportboat and as you can see on the website it is floated as a family mini cruiser (just look at the list of accessories and options). That being said - it does have a fair bit of SA for that kind of boat and with somewhat limited RM (ballast weight and a short keel) it will definitely feel sporty/a bit tippy. The sprit is really short and there is no mention of kite area - judging purely from the pics it seems to be a realtively small kite - 6-700 sqf maybe. Will be interesting to see how fast it turns out to be

I don't know. the Elliott 770 is 2 feet shorter and carries 900 sf of spinnaker. pole is longer on the elliott, granted. the ballast to weight ratio seems pretty decent, certainly much better than my Elliott's. But yeah, at that price either a left coast dart or a GP26 with a lifting keel would be a good option.

[flojo]

Wouldn't necessarily call it a sportboat and as you can see on the website it is floated as a family mini cruiser (just look at the list of accessories and options). That being said - it does have a fair bit of SA for that kind of boat and with somewhat limited RM (ballast weight and a short keel) it will definitely feel sporty/a bit tippy. The sprit is really short and there is no mention of kite area - judging purely from the pics it seems to be a realtively small kite - 6-700 sqf maybe. Will be interesting to see how fast it turns out to be

I don't know. the Elliott 770 is 2 feet shorter and carries 900 sf of spinnaker. pole is longer on the elliott, granted. the ballast to weight ratio seems pretty decent, certainly much better than my Elliott's. But yeah, at that price either a left coast dart or a GP26 with a lifting keel would be a good option.

The west coast dart is in deed a nice boat for about 50'000 $ (ex vat, ex sails i believe). How much is a GP26?
Pictures of Saphire 27 #1:
 s27_1.jpg   406.65K   155 downloads
 s27_2.jpg   412.61K   157 downloads

[Ryley]

Ugh, I hate those pictures. They do nothing to market that boat. In the first one they're not sailing close hauled, so you can't tell what kind of heel angles they might induce. It definitely seems powered up with not much breeze, but they're on a reach so so what? pretty much any boat will look powered up.

In the second picture I'd like to think that they just hoisted that chute and are rounding down, but the rudder track indicates otherwise. Not much wind, over on its chine, digging a deep hole through the water. Pretty significant weather helm. I'm not saying the boat's a bad boat, but I'd like to see better pictures and/or video.

[Pog]

It is amazing how close the Saphire 27 is to the Left Coast Dart 25.

[Steam Flyer]

Ugh, I hate those pictures. They do nothing to market that boat. In the first one they're not sailing close hauled, so you can't tell what kind of heel angles they might induce. It definitely seems powered up with not much breeze, but they're on a reach so so what? pretty much any boat will look powered up.

In the second picture I'd like to think that they just hoisted that chute and are rounding down, but the rudder track indicates otherwise. Not much wind, over on its chine, digging a deep hole through the water. Pretty significant weather helm. I'm not saying the boat's a bad boat, but I'd like to see better pictures and/or video.

Pulling that stern wave certainly doesn't show any sign of "breaking loose" and about to plane.
Still, it's a good looking boat; looks like a lot of potential even if it's not in GP26 territory

FB- Doug

[flojo]

Ugh, I hate those pictures. They do nothing to market that boat. In the first one they're not sailing close hauled, so you can't tell what kind of heel angles they might induce. It definitely seems powered up with not much breeze, but they're on a reach so so what? pretty much any boat will look powered up.

In the second picture I'd like to think that they just hoisted that chute and are rounding down, but the rudder track indicates otherwise. Not much wind, over on its chine, digging a deep hole through the water. Pretty significant weather helm. I'm not saying the boat's a bad boat, but I'd like to see better pictures and/or video.

Video: http://saphireboats..../31c9b506e6.mp4
Pics: http://saphireboats.com/gallery-sail

First sail, no optimizations, shifty winds.

[Heriberto]

Why?

Why would you design/build/buy a boat this close to a GP26 and not design/build/buy a GP26? Every dimension is either compliant or a hair off.

I also hate when people call something a 30 when it is 28 or 32, this boat is a 26, call it that, or call it an 8M.

Other than that, I hate big windows on little boats, and that teak(?) cockpit floor is either cool or incongruous, (like carbon fiber decal accenting), can't decide which. Going for that bargain basement Wally thing?

[Heriberto]

Ok. After looking at all the photos I hate to be a hater, but I have to be honest: it looks chunky and clunky and cheap. It looks like it was designed by committee with those added in cockpit seats and huge doghouse. The cockpit appears uncomfortable and cramped and the cabintop winches overmatched. The crew are often standing, probably because there is no natural place to sit? The tiller looks like it fell off a metal scrapper's truck. The reverse sheer is enormous and accentuates the bulbous attitude of the boat. Below it must be cavernous for this size boat, but nothing close to standing headroom equals meh. And yeah, the teak is a bad joke. I like it has a square top main, carbon spar and boom, but vinylester infusion?

This is a boat show buyer's boat. A good first step up from a Mac26X.

[PurpleOnion]

No need to spew so much hatred. It's clear the boat is targeted for a different market than the GP26. It's clear from this thread and the other GP26 threads that you need to sure up your direction/decision to purchase a GP26. It's a great rule/boat. Enjoy yours when/if you get it. However, there's no need to dump on this boat. You can still purchase a boat that's good for you and let others feel good about purchasing boats that are good for them.

[Heriberto]

But where was I wrong? Can't someone honestly put forth their opinion? Do you like big windows, big doghouses and cramped cockpits with seats? I'm sorry if the truth hurts, and it's true, I just don't understand the rationale for boats like this, so there is that.

Anyway, this is supposedly a sport boat forum and I really don't think this is much as a sport boat. If this post was put anywhere else I would have held my tongue, because I'm sure it is a perfectly fine pocket cruiser trailer sailer family starter boat that will fill many with the joy of sailing, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone a living.

[Steam Flyer]

But where was I wrong?
... ...

You're wrong in not seeing the difference between your opinion and fact.

Of course you're entitled to your opinon. You think it's an ugly-ass boat. Fine, don't get one. Is there a quantifiable, objective reason why somebody would have to be a bad sailor to buy one of these? Or to want one without buying it? Or to even look at the same pictures and say "Hmm, that looks like a pretty cool boat" ??

FWIW I'd rather have a GP26 but it looks like they are not going to make one with a lifting keel configured for being ramp-launch-able. I guess that makes me stupid IYHO

FB- Doug

[Heriberto]

Doug,

Everything I said was my opinion. That is all. If you disagree, that is fine. If anyone else disagrees that is fine. I said nothing about the quality of sailor that would own a boat like this, that is you putting words in my mouth because I would never say that.

Alot of people like movies I hate. I'm not allowed to say anything negative about E.T.?

[Heriberto]

FWIW I'm not a fan of the huge reverse sheer on the Farr 400 either.

[Jim Donovan]

But where was I wrong?
... ...

You're wrong in not seeing the difference between your opinion and fact.

Of course you're entitled to your opinon. You think it's an ugly-ass boat. Fine, don't get one. Is there a quantifiable, objective reason why somebody would have to be a bad sailor to buy one of these? Or to want one without buying it? Or to even look at the same pictures and say "Hmm, that looks like a pretty cool boat" ??

FWIW I'd rather have a GP26 but it looks like they are not going to make one with a lifting keel configured for being ramp-launch-able. I guess that makes me stupid IYHO

FB- Doug

I think we all know that Herb pulls no punches with his opinions re: yachts. I agree with some of his observations, and would disagree with others.

The designer/builder of this yacht are obviousy targeting a different owner than the guy who buys a GP26; it is purposely different.
And there are plenty of people who like big windows and reverse sheer; how many Ross and Elliott yachst have been sold?

But more importantly, and I'm glad I happened to glance at this thread, the comment Doug made about a ramp launchable Windseeker GP26 isn't really true.
I'll PM Doug to discuss.

[Steam Flyer]

Doug,

Everything I said was my opinion. That is all. If you disagree, that is fine. If anyone else disagrees that is fine. I said nothing about the quality of sailor that would own a boat like this, that is you putting words in my mouth because I would never say that.

Alot of people like movies I hate. I'm not allowed to say anything negative about E.T.?

Hey this is ANARCHY... of course you're not allowed to say anything negative!! Must be nicey-nice at all times!

Actually this boat is not to may taste either although it is somewhat reminiscent of the Sigma 8m which was a pretty sporty boat IIRC. Looks like it's a bit overpowered which doesn't make it fast in anything except light air.

As JD observes there are lots of boats that make some compromise for comfort and are still not butt-ugly. It is a matter of priorities as well as personal taste... for a while my wife & I owned and sailed a porky little tub that was very comfortable & practical; I observed first-hand that you can't see how ugly a boat is when you're on it. However it also lacked long-term appeal.

FB- Doug

[GybeSet®]

if you want an interior you'd look at the Left Coast Dart

but that condo may have even mo room

[PurpleOnion]

But where was I wrong? Can't someone honestly put forth their opinion? Do you like big windows, big doghouses and cramped cockpits with seats? I'm sorry if the truth hurts, and it's true, I just don't understand the rationale for boats like this, so there is that.

Anyway, this is supposedly a sport boat forum and I really don't think this is much as a sport boat. If this post was put anywhere else I would have held my tongue, because I'm sure it is a perfectly fine pocket cruiser trailer sailer family starter boat that will fill many with the joy of sailing, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone a living.

I'm sure you'll take this as an attack, but if you read what I wrote, I simply stated that there was no need to spew all the hatred. I'm not sure why you're asking me where you were wrong. Your opinions are yours and you've stated them for everyone here to associate with you. My implicit question was why did you feel the need to respond with such scathing commentary? It didn't seem like anyone had offered up anything to provoke that kind of response. After reading your response above, I now realize it's because the original poster had the poor taste to open this thread in the sport boat forum. I'm assuming that also explains why you appeared offended that someone would build and others might even like a boat with characteristics that don't match the type of boat you want.
The necessary disclaimers must be added. I have no interest in the boat as builder/seller/purchaser/onlooker. I didn't even know it existed until I clicked on this thread by mistake.

[Philen]

I also hate when people call something a 30 when it is 28 or 32, this boat is a 26, call it that, or call it an 8M.

funny, you bring this up, 'cause initially it was supposed to be called Saphire 26:

The boat appeared for the first time on the radar on August 28 on the webpage of the German Yacht Magazine (www.yacht.de) about six weeks after the Seascape 27 prototype floated for the first time (that one's also only 7.99 M long, but anyway...). It was called Saphire 26. This can be seen here: www.yacht.de/yachten_jollen/neue_boote/saphire-27-der-allzweck-sportler/a73957.html. While the title now reads Saphire 27, it was not changed in the text (second paragraph below the picture). I'm almost sure, but can't prove it anymore, that even on their own website (www.saphireboats.com) it was called 26 initially. The strange thing was, that within less than a day of the launch it was renamed to Saphire 27 and all (well, most) reference on the web was changed accordingly, which I found interesting at least, given that YACHT magazine is supposed to be an "independent" journal. I found it strange that they would change such a thing in an already published article without explanation...

It seems that the marketing guys realized rather late, that they were in direct competition with recently launched boats such as the Archambault 27 (8.35 M or 27+ feet) and the Sesacape 27.

On a different note:
I think the concept has its merrit. The Saphire is designed as a family daysailor/cruiser which can also be raced with a small crew. Given its provenance from Switzerland it is celar that it will have to sail well predominantly on the lakes of central Europe in relatively light winds, hence the rather overpowered feel from those pictures.

[flojo]

But where was I wrong? Can't someone honestly put forth their opinion? Do you like big windows, big doghouses and cramped cockpits with seats? I'm sorry if the truth hurts, and it's true, I just don't understand the rationale for boats like this, so there is that.

Anyway, this is supposedly a sport boat forum and I really don't think this is much as a sport boat. If this post was put anywhere else I would have held my tongue, because I'm sure it is a perfectly fine pocket cruiser trailer sailer family starter boat that will fill many with the joy of sailing, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone a living.

I'm sure you'll take this as an attack, but if you read what I wrote, I simply stated that there was no need to spew all the hatred. I'm not sure why you're asking me where you were wrong. Your opinions are yours and you've stated them for everyone here to associate with you. My implicit question was why did you feel the need to respond with such scathing commentary? It didn't seem like anyone had offered up anything to provoke that kind of response. After reading your response above, I now realize it's because the original poster had the poor taste to open this thread in the sport boat forum. I'm assuming that also explains why you appeared offended that someone would build and others might even like a boat with characteristics that don't match the type of boat you want.
The necessary disclaimers must be added. I have no interest in the boat as builder/seller/purchaser/onlooker. I didn't even know it existed until I clicked on this thread by mistake.

As the "poor taste" opener of this thread i totally agree with your statement. But i'm still confused and need some clarification.

Heriberto, please tell me, what a sport boat is, not what a sport boat isn't. Is it SA/D ratio? Is it gliding? Is it having NO seats? Is it the shape of the keel bulb? Is it the LACK of versatility?

I used to sail a Bull 7000, which imo was a really VERSATILE sport boat. It had two double berths. It had tow hatchways. It had seats in the cockpit. It had only one winch. It had a galley. It had a lifting keel. It had big windows. It had a pivoting bowsprit. It even had a chilly bin. But according to Heribertos negative list, it was NO sport boat. Even a Luthi F10 (see http://www.facebook.com/LuthiF10) is NO sport boat, because it has reverse sheer. And the Seascape 27 neither. It even has a head (gosh!).

To sum it up: Sorry for my boldness to open such a thread in the sport boat forum. Should i ask the Ed to delete it?

[flojo]

btw: I could, too, ask the Ed to split the sport boat forum in "according to Heriberto's law" and "NOT according to Heriberto's law".

[Steam Flyer]

btw: I could, too, ask the Ed to split the sport boat forum in "according to Heriberto's law" and "NOT according to Heriberto's law".

Don't get your panties all twisted

You haven't met Gybeset® yet

FB- Doug

[GybeSet®]

FWIW I'd rather have a GP26 but it looks like they are not going to make one with a lifting keel configured for being ramp-launch-able. I guess that makes me stupid IYHO

FB- Doug

well your doing the job for me, not stupid at all

without the lift keel and mast raising assisting your launch-able description the GP & Dart ( j/80 config) won't qualify as sportsboat below the equator, which are truly or 100% portable/launchable

think M24 - Viper
____________________________

herbie is on the money
no sportscar, too much campervan ?

but below the equator it is closer ( or would ) qualify on the criteria it has a fully retracting keel and mast is deck-stepped allowing SELF-launching i.e no crane etc

[Heriberto]

Can't we all get along?

I don't really think ad hominem attacks are really where we need to go when expressing opinions on boats. I'm sorry if my opinion on a boat (or even YOUR boat) offends you, I'm not attacking you or anyone else personally for disagreeing.

But hey, I gave it some love for the carbon spars, and the square top main, not to mention I'm sure it has a bitchin' stereo.

[flojo]

Can't we all get along?

I don't really think ad hominem attacks are really where we need to go when expressing opinions on boats. I'm sorry if my opinion on a boat (or even YOUR boat) offends you, I'm not attacking you or anyone else personally for disagreeing.

But hey, I gave it some love for the carbon spars, and the square top main, not to mention I'm sure it has a bitchin' stereo.

No problem, even if you don't want to share your definition of a sportsboat with the others.
Here in old Europe most of the people tend to same definition like GybeSet did above.

flojo

[Ryley]

Ok, here's what I don't like:

• nothing to indicate this boat is going to plane. I'm not sure why there's a chine when the rest of the bottom is so round. when it hits the chine it seems to just keep going.
• If this is an OD like the website claims, where are the OD rules? legs in or out hiking?
• I am TIRED of people putting out videos of their babies and the disclaimer is "no tuning, not optimized." WHY??? I mean save it for an amateur youtube video, not your production web site. Ok, not optimized. I'm not impressed with the heel in less than 10 knots of breeze regardless of how 'shifty' it was. Why would you do that? Get it optimized, or at least tuned, then show us something that might be indicative of the performance a customer might expect.
• The section about how easy it is to launch - big deal. show how easy it is to put the stick up. Give a real-world number about how long from taking the straps off the trailer to when you can actually sail it.
• I know this isn't really optimized for the US, but with a torpedo bulb like that, add an keel cutter to the options.
• Cost. Base price for the 26 foot boat may be reasonable, I don't know. That's before such "options" as.. electrical? After adding up the options including a trailer, with the optional sprit, optional square top, optional laminate jib, you're into the Euro70,000 range.

There are things I like about the design - it seems pretty roomy for a 26' boat. it's probably pretty quick in displacement mode, and might by a light-air machine. I like the carbon rig. I like the displacement/ballast ratio. I hope you sell a ton of them. I guess I just wouldn't have expected it to be as tender as it appears to be for its design.

[postpast]

Ok. After looking at all the photos I hate to be a hater, but I have to be honest: it looks chunky and clunky and cheap. It looks like it was designed by committee with those added in cockpit seats and huge doghouse. The cockpit appears uncomfortable and cramped and the cabintop winches overmatched. The crew are often standing, probably because there is no natural place to sit? The tiller looks like it fell off a metal scrapper's truck. The reverse sheer is enormous and accentuates the bulbous attitude of the boat. Below it must be cavernous for this size boat, but nothing close to standing headroom equals meh. And yeah, the teak is a bad joke. I like it has a square top main, carbon spar and boom, but vinylester infusion?

This is a boat show buyer's boat. A good first step up from a Mac26X.

"But where was I wrong? Can't someone honestly put forth their opinion?" OK, I'll give it a shot;

1. I'm guessing the cockpit seats are a large part about having "spacious" sea berths. Overall I think the cockpit is big enough; For me, upwind, crew should be forward and over the side, downwind everybody should be at the back of the bus.

2. The doghouse and cabin top winches may be a little large but that’s not going to make a very big impact on performance and will be appreciated by people who are looking for something a little softer than other sport boats.

3. I don't mind the tiller, if it works. I really like the teak (most likely Plas-teak or other lightweight anti-grip.)

4. I think the Reverse Sheer works on this design, it makes it look modern and quickly separates it visually from the hundreds of phrf racers of the past.

5. If this steals sales from Mac 26's and Hunters at the boat show and manages to get new people into sportboats, I see no problem with that.

[Heriberto]

5. If this steals sales from Mac 26's and Hunters at the boat show and manages to get new people into sportboats, I see no problem with that.

Me too.

[flojo]

I asked them a few questions. Here are the answers:

Gennaker size: 75 m2
Code 0 size: 35 m2
Top speed to date: 15 kn in 20 kn wind with gennaker (testing on Lake Garda)