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New kid on the block ... Saphire 27

Saphire 27 Sportboat; 8 Meter;

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#1 flojo

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:45 PM

There's a new contender in the 8 meter sportboat market: Saphire 27.

Attached File  saphire27onwater.jpg   140.91K   157 downloads

Attached File  saphire27sailplan.jpg   34.28K   126 downloads

Keel type retractable keel Length overall 8.00 m 26.25 ft Beam 2.50 m 8.20 ft Draft 1.70 m 5.58 ft Total weight 1150 kg 2535 lbs Ballast weight 500 kg 1102 lbs Main sail area 29.00 m2 312.15 ft2 Genoa area (fock) 15.00 m2 161.46 ft2 Mast height 10.50 m 34.45 ft Height with ballast 1.70 m 5.58 ft Length for transport 8.00 m 26.25 ft Category CE C - 6 Designer Claudio Maletto

Saphire Boats were founded by former European A Class Champion Michi Tobler.
The design team is from Italy, headed by Claudio Maletto (Prada Luna Rossa).
Sailaway price is about 60 k$ (standard sails, excl. VAT and delivery).

#2 Tejano

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:33 PM

Really attractive package. And how is this relevant on the US side of the pond when most builders can't give away their stock in this market? I'd purchase a West Coast Dart long before this EU beauty.

#3 Christian

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:29 PM

Wouldn't necessarily call it a sportboat and as you can see on the website it is floated as a family mini cruiser (just look at the list of accessories and options). That being said - it does have a fair bit of SA for that kind of boat and with somewhat limited RM (ballast weight and a short keel) it will definitely feel sporty/a bit tippy. The sprit is really short and there is no mention of kite area - judging purely from the pics it seems to be a realtively small kite - 6-700 sqf maybe. Will be interesting to see how fast it turns out to be

#4 Speng

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:03 PM

IRC sportboat :ph34r:

#5 flojo

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 07:55 AM


Wouldn't necessarily call it a sportboat and as you can see on the website it is floated as a family mini cruiser (just look at the list of accessories and options). That being said - it does have a fair bit of SA for that kind of boat and with somewhat limited RM (ballast weight and a short keel) it will definitely feel sporty/a bit tippy. The sprit is really short and there is no mention of kite area - judging purely from the pics it seems to be a realtively small kite - 6-700 sqf maybe. Will be interesting to see how fast it turns out to be


I don't know. the Elliott 770 is 2 feet shorter and carries 900 sf of spinnaker. pole is longer on the elliott, granted. the ballast to weight ratio seems pretty decent, certainly much better than my Elliott's. But yeah, at that price either a left coast dart or a GP26 with a lifting keel would be a good option.

The west coast dart is in deed a nice boat for about 50'000 $ (ex vat, ex sails i believe). How much is a GP26?
Pictures of Saphire 27 #1:
Attached File  s27_1.jpg   406.65K   264 downloads
Attached File  s27_2.jpg   412.61K   288 downloads

#6 Pog

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:08 PM

It is amazing how close the Saphire 27 is to the Left Coast Dart 25.

Posted Image

#7 Steam Flyer

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:59 PM

Ugh, I hate those pictures. They do nothing to market that boat. In the first one they're not sailing close hauled, so you can't tell what kind of heel angles they might induce. It definitely seems powered up with not much breeze, but they're on a reach so so what? pretty much any boat will look powered up.

In the second picture I'd like to think that they just hoisted that chute and are rounding down, but the rudder track indicates otherwise. Not much wind, over on its chine, digging a deep hole through the water. Pretty significant weather helm. I'm not saying the boat's a bad boat, but I'd like to see better pictures and/or video.


Pulling that stern wave certainly doesn't show any sign of "breaking loose" and about to plane.
Still, it's a good looking boat; looks like a lot of potential even if it's not in GP26 territory

FB- Doug

#8 flojo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:31 PM

Ugh, I hate those pictures. They do nothing to market that boat. In the first one they're not sailing close hauled, so you can't tell what kind of heel angles they might induce. It definitely seems powered up with not much breeze, but they're on a reach so so what? pretty much any boat will look powered up.

In the second picture I'd like to think that they just hoisted that chute and are rounding down, but the rudder track indicates otherwise. Not much wind, over on its chine, digging a deep hole through the water. Pretty significant weather helm. I'm not saying the boat's a bad boat, but I'd like to see better pictures and/or video.


Video: http://saphireboats..../31c9b506e6.mp4
Pics: http://saphireboats.com/gallery-sail

First sail, no optimizations, shifty winds.

#9 Heriberto

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:42 PM

Why?

Why would you design/build/buy a boat this close to a GP26 and not design/build/buy a GP26? Every dimension is either compliant or a hair off.

I also hate when people call something a 30 when it is 28 or 32, this boat is a 26, call it that, or call it an 8M.

Other than that, I hate big windows on little boats, and that teak(?) cockpit floor is either cool or incongruous, (like carbon fiber decal accenting), can't decide which. Going for that bargain basement Wally thing?

#10 Heriberto

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:08 PM

Ok. After looking at all the photos I hate to be a hater, but I have to be honest: it looks chunky and clunky and cheap. It looks like it was designed by committee with those added in cockpit seats and huge doghouse. The cockpit appears uncomfortable and cramped and the cabintop winches overmatched. The crew are often standing, probably because there is no natural place to sit? The tiller looks like it fell off a metal scrapper's truck. The reverse sheer is enormous and accentuates the bulbous attitude of the boat. Below it must be cavernous for this size boat, but nothing close to standing headroom equals meh. And yeah, the teak is a bad joke. I like it has a square top main, carbon spar and boom, but vinylester infusion?

This is a boat show buyer's boat. A good first step up from a Mac26X.

#11 PurpleOnion

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:28 PM

No need to spew so much hatred. It's clear the boat is targeted for a different market than the GP26. It's clear from this thread and the other GP26 threads that you need to sure up your direction/decision to purchase a GP26. It's a great rule/boat. Enjoy yours when/if you get it. However, there's no need to dump on this boat. You can still purchase a boat that's good for you and let others feel good about purchasing boats that are good for them.

#12 Heriberto

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:20 PM

But where was I wrong? Can't someone honestly put forth their opinion? Do you like big windows, big doghouses and cramped cockpits with seats? I'm sorry if the truth hurts, and it's true, I just don't understand the rationale for boats like this, so there is that.

Anyway, this is supposedly a sport boat forum and I really don't think this is much as a sport boat. If this post was put anywhere else I would have held my tongue, because I'm sure it is a perfectly fine pocket cruiser trailer sailer family starter boat that will fill many with the joy of sailing, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone a living.

#13 Steam Flyer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:40 PM

But where was I wrong?
... ...


You're wrong in not seeing the difference between your opinion and fact.

Of course you're entitled to your opinon. You think it's an ugly-ass boat. Fine, don't get one. Is there a quantifiable, objective reason why somebody would have to be a bad sailor to buy one of these? Or to want one without buying it? Or to even look at the same pictures and say "Hmm, that looks like a pretty cool boat" ??

FWIW I'd rather have a GP26 but it looks like they are not going to make one with a lifting keel configured for being ramp-launch-able. I guess that makes me stupid IYHO

FB- Doug

#14 Heriberto

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:57 AM

Doug,

Everything I said was my opinion. That is all. If you disagree, that is fine. If anyone else disagrees that is fine. I said nothing about the quality of sailor that would own a boat like this, that is you putting words in my mouth because I would never say that.

Alot of people like movies I hate. I'm not allowed to say anything negative about E.T.?

#15 Heriberto

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:50 PM

FWIW I'm not a fan of the huge reverse sheer on the Farr 400 either.

#16 Jim Donovan

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:25 PM


But where was I wrong?
... ...


You're wrong in not seeing the difference between your opinion and fact.

Of course you're entitled to your opinon. You think it's an ugly-ass boat. Fine, don't get one. Is there a quantifiable, objective reason why somebody would have to be a bad sailor to buy one of these? Or to want one without buying it? Or to even look at the same pictures and say "Hmm, that looks like a pretty cool boat" ??

FWIW I'd rather have a GP26 but it looks like they are not going to make one with a lifting keel configured for being ramp-launch-able. I guess that makes me stupid IYHO

FB- Doug


I think we all know that Herb pulls no punches with his opinions re: yachts. I agree with some of his observations, and would disagree with others.

The designer/builder of this yacht are obviousy targeting a different owner than the guy who buys a GP26; it is purposely different.
And there are plenty of people who like big windows and reverse sheer; how many Ross and Elliott yachst have been sold?

But more importantly, and I'm glad I happened to glance at this thread, the comment Doug made about a ramp launchable Windseeker GP26 isn't really true.
I'll PM Doug to discuss.

#17 Steam Flyer

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:56 PM

Doug,

Everything I said was my opinion. That is all. If you disagree, that is fine. If anyone else disagrees that is fine. I said nothing about the quality of sailor that would own a boat like this, that is you putting words in my mouth because I would never say that.

Alot of people like movies I hate. I'm not allowed to say anything negative about E.T.?


Hey this is ANARCHY... of course you're not allowed to say anything negative!! Must be nicey-nice at all times!

Actually this boat is not to may taste either although it is somewhat reminiscent of the Sigma 8m which was a pretty sporty boat IIRC. Looks like it's a bit overpowered which doesn't make it fast in anything except light air.

As JD observes there are lots of boats that make some compromise for comfort and are still not butt-ugly. It is a matter of priorities as well as personal taste... for a while my wife & I owned and sailed a porky little tub that was very comfortable & practical; I observed first-hand that you can't see how ugly a boat is when you're on it. However it also lacked long-term appeal.

FB- Doug

#18 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:41 PM

if you want an interior you'd look at the Left Coast Dart

but that condo may have even mo room

#19 PurpleOnion

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:29 PM

But where was I wrong? Can't someone honestly put forth their opinion? Do you like big windows, big doghouses and cramped cockpits with seats? I'm sorry if the truth hurts, and it's true, I just don't understand the rationale for boats like this, so there is that.

Anyway, this is supposedly a sport boat forum and I really don't think this is much as a sport boat. If this post was put anywhere else I would have held my tongue, because I'm sure it is a perfectly fine pocket cruiser trailer sailer family starter boat that will fill many with the joy of sailing, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone a living.


I'm sure you'll take this as an attack, but if you read what I wrote, I simply stated that there was no need to spew all the hatred. I'm not sure why you're asking me where you were wrong. Your opinions are yours and you've stated them for everyone here to associate with you. My implicit question was why did you feel the need to respond with such scathing commentary? It didn't seem like anyone had offered up anything to provoke that kind of response. After reading your response above, I now realize it's because the original poster had the poor taste to open this thread in the sport boat forum. I'm assuming that also explains why you appeared offended that someone would build and others might even like a boat with characteristics that don't match the type of boat you want.
The necessary disclaimers must be added. I have no interest in the boat as builder/seller/purchaser/onlooker. I didn't even know it existed until I clicked on this thread by mistake.

#20 Philen

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:24 AM

I also hate when people call something a 30 when it is 28 or 32, this boat is a 26, call it that, or call it an 8M.


funny, you bring this up, 'cause initially it was supposed to be called Saphire 26:

The boat appeared for the first time on the radar on August 28 on the webpage of the German Yacht Magazine (www.yacht.de) about six weeks after the Seascape 27 prototype floated for the first time (that one's also only 7.99 M long, but anyway...). It was called Saphire 26. This can be seen here: www.yacht.de/yachten_jollen/neue_boote/saphire-27-der-allzweck-sportler/a73957.html. While the title now reads Saphire 27, it was not changed in the text (second paragraph below the picture). I'm almost sure, but can't prove it anymore, that even on their own website (www.saphireboats.com) it was called 26 initially. The strange thing was, that within less than a day of the launch it was renamed to Saphire 27 and all (well, most) reference on the web was changed accordingly, which I found interesting at least, given that YACHT magazine is supposed to be an "independent" journal. I found it strange that they would change such a thing in an already published article without explanation...

It seems that the marketing guys realized rather late, that they were in direct competition with recently launched boats such as the Archambault 27 (8.35 M or 27+ feet) and the Sesacape 27.

On a different note:
I think the concept has its merrit. The Saphire is designed as a family daysailor/cruiser which can also be raced with a small crew. Given its provenance from Switzerland it is celar that it will have to sail well predominantly on the lakes of central Europe in relatively light winds, hence the rather overpowered feel from those pictures.

#21 flojo

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:57 AM


But where was I wrong? Can't someone honestly put forth their opinion? Do you like big windows, big doghouses and cramped cockpits with seats? I'm sorry if the truth hurts, and it's true, I just don't understand the rationale for boats like this, so there is that.

Anyway, this is supposedly a sport boat forum and I really don't think this is much as a sport boat. If this post was put anywhere else I would have held my tongue, because I'm sure it is a perfectly fine pocket cruiser trailer sailer family starter boat that will fill many with the joy of sailing, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone a living.


I'm sure you'll take this as an attack, but if you read what I wrote, I simply stated that there was no need to spew all the hatred. I'm not sure why you're asking me where you were wrong. Your opinions are yours and you've stated them for everyone here to associate with you. My implicit question was why did you feel the need to respond with such scathing commentary? It didn't seem like anyone had offered up anything to provoke that kind of response. After reading your response above, I now realize it's because the original poster had the poor taste to open this thread in the sport boat forum. I'm assuming that also explains why you appeared offended that someone would build and others might even like a boat with characteristics that don't match the type of boat you want.
The necessary disclaimers must be added. I have no interest in the boat as builder/seller/purchaser/onlooker. I didn't even know it existed until I clicked on this thread by mistake.

As the "poor taste" opener of this thread i totally agree with your statement. But i'm still confused and need some clarification.

Heriberto, please tell me, what a sport boat is, not what a sport boat isn't. Is it SA/D ratio? Is it gliding? Is it having NO seats? Is it the shape of the keel bulb? Is it the LACK of versatility?

I used to sail a Bull 7000, which imo was a really VERSATILE sport boat. It had two double berths. It had tow hatchways. It had seats in the cockpit. It had only one winch. It had a galley. It had a lifting keel. It had big windows. It had a pivoting bowsprit. It even had a chilly bin. But according to Heribertos negative list, it was NO sport boat. Even a Luthi F10 (see http://www.facebook.com/LuthiF10) is NO sport boat, because it has reverse sheer. And the Seascape 27 neither. It even has a head (gosh!).

To sum it up: Sorry for my boldness to open such a thread in the sport boat forum. Should i ask the Ed to delete it?

#22 flojo

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:04 PM

btw: I could, too, ask the Ed to split the sport boat forum in "according to Heriberto's law" and "NOT according to Heriberto's law".

#23 Steam Flyer

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:34 PM

btw: I could, too, ask the Ed to split the sport boat forum in "according to Heriberto's law" and "NOT according to Heriberto's law".


Don't get your panties all twisted

You haven't met Gybeset® yet

FB- Doug

#24 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:46 PM

FWIW I'd rather have a GP26 but it looks like they are not going to make one with a lifting keel configured for being ramp-launch-able. I guess that makes me stupid IYHO

FB- Doug

well your doing the job for me, not stupid at all

without the lift keel and mast raising assisting your launch-able description the GP & Dart ( j/80 config) won't qualify as sportsboat below the equator, which are truly or 100% portable/launchable


think M24 - Viper
____________________________


herbie is on the money
no sportscar, too much campervan ?

but below the equator it is closer ( or would ) qualify on the criteria it has a fully retracting keel and mast is deck-stepped allowing SELF-launching i.e no crane etc

#25 Heriberto

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:42 PM

Can't we all get along?

I don't really think ad hominem attacks are really where we need to go when expressing opinions on boats. I'm sorry if my opinion on a boat (or even YOUR boat) offends you, I'm not attacking you or anyone else personally for disagreeing.

But hey, I gave it some love for the carbon spars, and the square top main, not to mention I'm sure it has a bitchin' stereo.

:)

#26 flojo

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:06 PM

Can't we all get along?

I don't really think ad hominem attacks are really where we need to go when expressing opinions on boats. I'm sorry if my opinion on a boat (or even YOUR boat) offends you, I'm not attacking you or anyone else personally for disagreeing.

But hey, I gave it some love for the carbon spars, and the square top main, not to mention I'm sure it has a bitchin' stereo.

:)

No problem, even if you don't want to share your definition of a sportsboat with the others.
Here in old Europe most of the people tend to same definition like GybeSet did above.

flojo

#27 postpast

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:36 AM

Ok. After looking at all the photos I hate to be a hater, but I have to be honest: it looks chunky and clunky and cheap. It looks like it was designed by committee with those added in cockpit seats and huge doghouse. The cockpit appears uncomfortable and cramped and the cabintop winches overmatched. The crew are often standing, probably because there is no natural place to sit? The tiller looks like it fell off a metal scrapper's truck. The reverse sheer is enormous and accentuates the bulbous attitude of the boat. Below it must be cavernous for this size boat, but nothing close to standing headroom equals meh. And yeah, the teak is a bad joke. I like it has a square top main, carbon spar and boom, but vinylester infusion?

This is a boat show buyer's boat. A good first step up from a Mac26X.


"But where was I wrong? Can't someone honestly put forth their opinion?" OK, I'll give it a shot;

1. I'm guessing the cockpit seats are a large part about having "spacious" sea berths. Overall I think the cockpit is big enough; For me, upwind, crew should be forward and over the side, downwind everybody should be at the back of the bus.

2. The doghouse and cabin top winches may be a little large but that’s not going to make a very big impact on performance and will be appreciated by people who are looking for something a little softer than other sport boats.

3. I don't mind the tiller, if it works. I really like the teak (most likely Plas-teak or other lightweight anti-grip.)

4. I think the Reverse Sheer works on this design, it makes it look modern and quickly separates it visually from the hundreds of phrf racers of the past.

5. If this steals sales from Mac 26's and Hunters at the boat show and manages to get new people into sportboats, I see no problem with that.


#28 Heriberto

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:39 PM

5. If this steals sales from Mac 26's and Hunters at the boat show and manages to get new people into sportboats, I see no problem with that.


Me too.

#29 flojo

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:01 PM

I asked them a few questions. Here are the answers:

Gennaker size: 75 m2
Code 0 size: 35 m2
Top speed to date: 15 kn in 20 kn wind with gennaker (testing on Lake Garda)

#30 Michael@Saphire

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:26 PM

It took me one year to digest this discussion... :D and despite the different opinions above, SAPHIRE was nominated for the European Boat Of The Year 2014. I am happy to share my joy with all of you and feel free to ride the wave with me!



#31 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 04:18 PM

Who nominates "European Boat of the Year?"

 

If it is anything like the US BOTY competitions, it is either a joke or a curse, depending on the year.



#32 ssi

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 04:21 PM

Pictures of Saphire 27 #1:

Leaning uncontrollably while digging a big hole in the water.  Yup, it's a sportboat.



#33 Tony-F18

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 07:56 PM

Who nominates "European Boat of the Year?"

 

If it is anything like the US BOTY competitions, it is either a joke or a curse, depending on the year.

 

http://en.wikipedia....cht_of_the_Year

 

Pogo 12.50, Esse 750, RM 1260, Outremer 5X,  its a pretty nice list.



#34 Michael@Saphire

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:00 PM

The European Yacht Of The Year is elected by 11 leading sailing magazines in Europe (11 countries). Over here, the General definition of a sportboat means, that 50% of the total displacement must be below DWL. However, I did not place the thread in here and do not consider SAPHIRE a pure sportboat like Esse 850, Onxy or Blue 26. Even having similar Ratings, she can much more ;)

 

Above picutres #1ff were taken just a couple of days before the launch of the boat at Interboot Germany (09.2012) while the boat was still under production. This was necessary to have some pictures for the presentation but I agree, the set up was everything elese than perfect.  However, the last race we sailed was Barcolana in Trieste, the biggest race in Europe with over 2'000 boats, and Saphire won in her category (crociera).

 

Have a look at a customer's Video I just got it a few days ago from lake Geneva in Switzerland in roughly 20 knots of wind:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=BfeIhcjq2WM



#35 Daniel Gut

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:05 PM

So there we were, sailing in a long distance race on an Esse 850 at 1 am in the morning, keeping some pretty distinguished company at the pointy end of the fleet and my friend asks me, "what do we need to change here to be able to bring our children with on such events and not lose the fabulous performance and handling of the esse." That was in some ways the start of it, the result being the Saphire 27. The architect (and anyone doubting the credentials of the design or the man can google Luna Rosa designers) was asked, amongst others to design a boat for the "grown up" sport boat sailors, the ones who got married, started a family and still wanted to race, properly, but have the options to take the family on a weekend. Here in Europe there are very few boats that fulfil that criteria and the arrival of the Saphire 27 and Seascape 27 have for that reason attracted a lot of attention.

 

The SA forum "expert"s have undeniable talent for spotting millimeter performance enhancing or destroying details based on the pictures they are "supplied" with, cockpits are too small, winches too big and even when presented with a few numbers and a sketch that scream "planing hull" there appears to be no "indication" that it could be so. The work of a critic is simple and he risks very little, he thrives on a position over those who offer up their work and themselves for judgment and in doing so, often also making himself look good at expense of others. 

I have been fortunate to play a very small part in the growth of this project and the truth here is that an immeasurable amount of work, dedication, nerves and a truck load of passion get invested. The result will not be for everyone, it is not intended to be, but this project had a clear concept from the beginning, it was to build a simple, strong, light, fast, competitive boat that is seriously fun to sail, with or without family. Every aspect of the original concept has been accomplished, it continues to get faster as the development continues and has enriched a saturated market by being different (here in Europe). I am not a share holder, nor do I have any vested interest in the company, I do however sincerely hope that it wins the award for which it has been nominated.



#36 DennisY

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:22 PM

+1



#37 Anemkne Tickler

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:56 AM

Better off buying an Antrim 27

#38 Michael@Saphire

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:16 PM

Dear Anemkne, I am glad you are happy with your boat. This is how it should be. I found 26 units built in the last 7 years. Are there more around?



#39 Daniel Gut

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:12 AM

Hi Ryley

I am not offended at all, everyone is perfectly entitled to his opinion, my opinion is that there are statements being made that are speculative. And while I agree that the pictures are not altogether flattering, you see a " boat practically on its ear in light breeze, pulling a wake worthy of a one tonner with the chute up" I see a new boat planing, (on its maiden voyage) heeling over in gusty breeze, in the lee of tall trees, helm over to bear off. And it is planing! if only just getting on to it, that wave is too far behind the boat and the only part of the wake that is breaking is the behind the chine that is in the water because of the heel angle, but we are knit picking here. My point is that all sorts of "facts" and speculation are derived from pictures that actually say very little, but for the lack of evidence the "diagnosis" is based on what is at hand. Had it been any of the pictures below, the thread might look and sound very different. The Elliott is a great boat, no question, but with practically the same amount of sail area and almost half a ton (35%) less displacement than the Saphire 27, I suspect depending on one's location, the definition of "family" sailing is different ;-)

 

Regards from Zurich

 

Daniel

 

PS. If I remember correctly, those pictures were taken literally hours before the boat made its premier appearance at a boat show and for the photo shoot/first sail the closest piece of water got used, not ideal, but necessary.

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#40 Steam Flyer

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 01:41 PM

Hi Ryley

 

 

I am not offended at all, everyone is perfectly entitled to his opinion, my opinion is that there are statements being made that are speculative. And while I agree that the pictures are not altogether flattering, you see a " boat practically on its ear in light breeze, pulling a wake worthy of a one tonner with the chute up" I see a new boat planing, (on its maiden voyage) heeling over in gusty breeze, in the lee of tall trees, helm over to bear off. And it is planing! if only just getting on to it, that wave is too far behind the boat and the only part of the wake that is breaking is the behind the chine that is in the water because of the heel angle, but we are knit picking here. My point is that all sorts of "facts" and speculation are derived from pictures that actually say very little, but for the lack of evidence the "diagnosis" is based on what is at hand. Had it been any of the pictures below, the thread might look and sound very different. The Elliott is a great boat, no question, but with practically the same amount of sail area and almost half a ton (35%) less displacement than the Saphire 27, I suspect depending on one's location, the definition of "family" sailing is different ;-)

 

 

Regards from Zurich

 

 

Daniel

 

 

PS. If I remember correctly, those pictures were taken literally hours before the boat made its premier appearance at a boat show and for the photo shoot/first sail the closest piece of water got used, not ideal, but necessary.

 

Any ideas about bringing one or maybe even two into the USA?

 

FB- Doug



#41 Michael@Saphire

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:11 PM

Hi Doug

Of course it is possible to ship single orders to the US. However, without a distribution network it is quite difficult to enter the US market and to assure after sales service. For the first two years we will concentrate on the European markets and start building up distribution in the US in 2015.

Regards Michael



#42 ssi

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:25 PM

So there we were, sailing in a long distance race on an Esse 850 at 1 am in the morning, keeping some pretty distinguished company at the pointy end of the fleet and my friend asks me, "what do we need to change here to be able to bring our children with on such events and not lose the fabulous performance and handling of the esse." That was in some ways the start of it, the result being the Saphire 27. The architect (and anyone doubting the credentials of the design or the man can google Luna Rosa designers) was asked, amongst others to design a boat for the "grown up" sport boat sailors, the ones who got married, started a family and still wanted to race, properly, but have the options to take the family on a weekend. Here in Europe there are very few boats that fulfil that criteria and the arrival of the Saphire 27 and Seascape 27 have for that reason attracted a lot of attention.

 

The SA forum "expert"s have undeniable talent for spotting millimeter performance enhancing or destroying details based on the pictures they are "supplied" with, cockpits are too small, winches too big and even when presented with a few numbers and a sketch that scream "planing hull" there appears to be no "indication" that it could be so. The work of a critic is simple and he risks very little, he thrives on a position over those who offer up their work and themselves for judgment and in doing so, often also making himself look good at expense of others. 

I have been fortunate to play a very small part in the growth of this project and the truth here is that an immeasurable amount of work, dedication, nerves and a truck load of passion get invested. The result will not be for everyone, it is not intended to be, but this project had a clear concept from the beginning, it was to build a simple, strong, light, fast, competitive boat that is seriously fun to sail, with or without family. Every aspect of the original concept has been accomplished, it continues to get faster as the development continues and has enriched a saturated market by being different (here in Europe). I am not a share holder, nor do I have any vested interest in the company, I do however sincerely hope that it wins the award for which it has been nominated.

 

Well, Esse 850 is no more a sportboat than a Swan 60 is IMOCA 60 so you start off with a Radio Flyer pull cart and you end up with Ferrari 4-wheel kids buggy.  And that makes you feel better.  Until a Seafart 27.5 or 28.1 comes up and tells us all that THAT is the boat which can accomodate all those diapers, pampers and portapotties that all sportboats are made for.

 

Crack is a terrible thing to waste - share please!



#43 Daniel Gut

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:56 PM

Post like the last one, always leave me wondering what kind of a person needs to hide behind his anonymity in order to be a jerk, and if you did disclose who you are and wrote what you did above, would it surprise people who know you (or confirm what they already know) either way, the cyber bully/smartass/hero is part of this virtual experience and we have to live with it.

 

I am interested to know what the "definitive" sport boat is, but I suspect you are not here to be constructive. Crack?? Is probably the part of your anatomy where that last post was conceived and the point of delivery too.

 

Get a life!



#44 ssi

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:19 PM

I am interested to know what the "definitive" sport boat is, but I suspect you are not here to be constructive.

 

The definitive sportboat is Melges 24. 

 

Off you go inanely arguing how this boat is comparable to M24 because it has one mast, sloop rig and a keel.  3, 2, 1, go!



#45 Christian

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:21 PM

Not even when it was just conceived - and now 20 years later even less so.

 

 

I am interested to know what the "definitive" sport boat is, but I suspect you are not here to be constructive.

 

The definitive sportboat is Melges 24. 

 

Off you go inanely arguing how this boat is comparable to M24 because it has one mast, sloop rig and a keel.  3, 2, 1, go!



#46 The Advocate

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:33 PM

Not even when it was just conceived - and now 20 years later even less so.

 

 

 

I am interested to know what the "definitive" sport boat is, but I suspect you are not here to be constructive.

 

The definitive sportboat is Melges 24. 

 

Off you go inanely arguing how this boat is comparable to M24 because it has one mast, sloop rig and a keel.  3, 2, 1, go!

Completely agree Christian.



#47 Daniel Gut

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 01:01 PM

Thank you for a straight answer. There is no need to argue anything, they are two different concepts and meet different needs. German has a great word for the mythical concept that ticks all the boxes for every venue and all conditions, its called the "Eierlegendewollmilchsau" translated, the-egg-laying-wool-milk-pig and it has to date still never been sighted. Its a question of defining where a design has to be able to do what and designing for that, some concepts cover more bases than others, why not when the demand is there?

 

What is a sport boat? light? fast? able to plane? trailable? accommodation?, between 6 and 8 meters? etc. How many of those characteristics do you need before it is one and which combination make it not a sport boat ?

I don't think its that important to define, if more people get out the and sail because of it, it's a good thing in my book.



#48 6924

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 12:42 AM

I' ham' das alleweil ois vollmilchsau 






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