111 replies to this topic

[Gatekeeper]

Here we go...finally time to get rid of these %$&@ port lights.

These seem to have been very popular with a number of Canadian boat builders, CS, Mirage, C&C, Tanzer, and just about every owner has lost skin and blood trying to solve this nightmare.

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[Gatekeeper]

First step will be to remove ports and toss in dumpster...which will be followed by another club member fishing them back out. It's the circle of (yacht club) life.

I found strips of fiberglass flat bar 3/16 x 1 3/4 x 6'... these are made to create bows for power boat winter covers. They will become the inside flanges that the lights will adhere to.

Regatta this weekend then the mess begins.

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[sailman]

Gate,

I replaced all my ports on our last boat with Tri-Matrix from New Found Metals, great product. Here is a great write up on an install similar to yours.

Will Museler

[Gatekeeper]

Great work...I love the idea of the plywood plugs. Much more reliable than paper templates to fine tune the fit.

I'm stealing your idea!!

I've settled on 5200 to bond the flanges to the backside of the fiberglass (coach sides)...3M 2 sided HD mounting tape to hold in the PLEXI glass and Sikaflex 295UV too caulk around the perimeter.

I know right now some of you are screaming "don't do it" when I mention 5200 (slow cure) but in this application I think it gives me a great blend of strength and flex. If I ever need to remove it I can always sink the boat and claim the insurance.

[sailman]

Great work...I love the idea of the plywood plugs. Much more reliable than paper templates to fine tune the fit.

I'm stealing your idea!!

Not my idea, the ports are fantastic though. Gasketted so no sealants to worry about and stainless dogs that are through bolted so no snapping off when you want to close it tight.

[Ishmael]

Gate,

I replaced all my ports on our last boat with Tri-Matrix from New Found Metals, great product. Here is a great write up on an install similar to yours.

Will Museler

On the other hand, I think Wally messed up the lines of the LF38 coachroof with that window treatment. Nice to have the opening ports for ventilation, but I wouldn't have gone with the blue surround.

[Gatekeeper]

I'm not a fan of the blue either, but you have to admire the workmanship.

[SailAR]

Gate - how are you finishing off the flanges on the interior?

[Gatekeeper]

Gate - how are you finishing off the flanges on the interior?

Not sure yet but I think maybe a teak surround of some type.

Until it's in place and I see how much is revealed, it's tough to picture yet.

[Ishmael]

Great work...I love the idea of the plywood plugs. Much more reliable than paper templates to fine tune the fit.

I'm stealing your idea!!

I've settled on 5200 to bond the flanges to the backside of the fiberglass (coach sides)...3M 2 sided HD mounting tape to hold in the PLEXI glass and Sikaflex 295UV too caulk around the perimeter.

I know right now some of you are screaming "don't do it" when I mention 5200 (slow cure) but in this application I think it gives me a great blend of strength and flex. If I ever need to remove it I can always sink the boat and claim the insurance.

Gate, make sure when you use the 295UV that it does not contact bare acrylic. Polyurethanes degrade acrylics rapidly.

[Gatekeeper]

Ish

I am going to prime with Krylon Fusion and then edge seal with the 295uv. But here is what I found on the Sika tech page...

SIKAFLEX 295 UV RESISTANT MARINE ADHESIVE AND SEALANT - Sikaflex-295 UV is a fast curing, one-component, flexible, high performance polyurethane-based adhesive for bonding and sealing of windows and portholes. Sikaflex-295 UV is suitable for all types of organic (Polycarbonate, Acrylic) windowpanes. Its high degree of UV resistance also allows the use of the system as a weatherproof sealant. Does not crack or chalk and is non-yellowing.

(edit) oops, further down they mention that all surfaces must be primed, likely to protect the Plexi...the Fusion should take care of that.

I guess that makes Ish right. No surprise.

[Zonker]

There's another alternative. Just cut window panes oversize by 2" or so, and bond with Silpruf 200 silicone. Use Sika's guide to directly bonded windows.to decide on thickness of sealant. (it's critical and you will use more goo than you think). If you look at modern boats very few are using alum. frames these days. They just stick them on. The reason I like Silpruf is you don't need a primer like Sikaflex and it's half the price. Don't forget to sand the mating surfaces and use spacers to keep the sealant thickness sufficient (so you can't overcompress them and squeeze out all the goo)

I have some about 2m x 1m windows on my catamaran that I installed about 3 years ago. As these are front windows on a bridgedeck cabin they see significant racking stresses as the two hulls are on different waves. No leaks or trouble with the installation. Very tidy looking too. I think these windows used about 5 tubes each of caulking (there is centre mullion that is hard to see so that adds about 1 tube worth). I used a very wide overlap of 2" which is way overkill - but these are pretty big openings into the boat should they fail...

[Gatekeeper]

It starts today...bump.

[sailman]

It starts today...bump.

Good luck! Looking forward to the pics.

[Kirwan]

Just to give one more option:

Mark Plastics - This guy is a plastics shop that has templates for most sailboat ports. He quoted me $160-$200 each for the windows in my I-28. The guy down the dock from me had some made, and they look quite good.


Mark Plastics:
369 East Harrison Street Corona, CA 92879‎
369 East Harrison StreetUSCACorona92879
(951) 735-7705

[Gatekeeper]

Ports are out and the gusset removed...I added one to the interior.

I had to rethink the design as Mirage made the effort to fill the gap between the inner liner and outer coach top with fiberglass...damn quality construction

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[Ishmael]

Gate, does your wife know you're doing all this work with the upholstery in place? I always found it way easier to strip the boat to do something this major.

[Gatekeeper]

The upholstery is in the v-berth now and the dust is almost nothing...when I start sanding and grinding outside I'll seal off the openings from the inside.

Here is some progress for today. The flanges are in place....the screws will be removed in a week and the screw holes and joints finished with epoxy and painted the same colour is the interior.

I'll start work on the exterior after the weekend...lots of repairs to do, but I think it'll turn out fine.

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[Jose Carumba]

Looking good Dan. Nice job on the center mullion, and alignment of the flanges.

[Gatekeeper]

Jose

I'm retired and no matter how much you are willing to pay I'm not going to move to the coast and work for you...wellll, maybe I could live with Bob, eat great food and drink nice wines.

Ok, make me an offer

[Jose Carumba]

Nahh, you'd curse me after finding out the commute is one of the worst iin the USA. I couldn't do that to you. When can you start?

[Gatekeeper]

The worst commute in North America is in Toronto....really...look it up!!

Here's some more progress. I doubt it needs explaining but if anyone has questions or suggestions, I'm here.

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[Bob Perry]

WoW! Impressive Dan. Is the bottom pic the finished window?

[Gatekeeper]

WoW! Impressive Dan. Is the bottom pic the finished window?

No...the results should be far better than that...but it does look pretty good

That's the flange area with plastic taped inside.

[hobot]

The interior teak hand rails above the window opening....how are they attached?

[Gatekeeper]

Not sure...they may have been attached to the liner from the backside before the deck was fitted.

[Gatekeeper]

A few more pics...hopefully I can fair these tomorrow.

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[Gatekeeper]

Anyone know where I can get barrel nuts in black?

[sculpin]

McMaster. Aluminum, black anodized.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#aluminum-barrel-nuts/=jkdtlo

[Gatekeeper]

McMaster. Aluminum, black anodized.
http://www.mcmaster....el-nuts/=jkdtlo

Perfect...do they ship to Canada??

[Ishmael]

McMaster. Aluminum, black anodized.
http://www.mcmaster....el-nuts/=jkdtlo

Perfect...do they ship to Canada??

No. You have friends in the US, use them.

[sculpin]

Give 'em a call, I have heard they do now. For a while after 9-11 they did not.

[Ishmael]

Give 'em a call, I have heard they do now. For a while after 9-11 they did not.

That would be noice. They have a lot of stuff that I want.

[4knotSB]

McMaster. Aluminum, black anodized.
http://www.mcmaster....el-nuts/=jkdtlo

Perfect...do they ship to Canada??

[Gatekeeper]

The patterns for the "glass" are in progress now...you can see the fine black line that I will cut back to, to allow a 3/16" gap around the perimeter for caulking...also I left a 1/4" expansion joint between the panes.

The patterns will be sent to a plastics company in Toronto that I have dealt with before. Nobody here has any acrylic thicker than 1/4" or any darker shades. No big deal.

I'm wondering if I'm wiser to do the perimeter caulking in the cool weather so when the glass expands it pushes on the Sikaflex? If it's warm and the glass shrinks later, it may try to pull away from the bead...hummmmmm???

It's slow progress, but it's progress.

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[Gatekeeper]

Here are the patterns...I decreased them in size to allow for a bead of caulk. If found my bench belt sander did a great job truing the edges.

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[Ishmael]

You might want to consider having a bevel put on the inside of the windows to accomodate extra caulk; C&C did this with their windows and it works well.
Also, did you use fomecore for the patterns? If so, you can probably save some fabrication $ by sending a good rigid template that they can double-sided tape to the acrylic stock. Then they just use a flush-cutting bit in the router to trace your template. Saves them time and eliminates any error from pattern transfer. Doorskins work well, as does masonite.
Looking good so far!

[Gatekeeper]

I'm not aware of fomecore? I used corrugated plastic.

It doesn't have to be accurate to a few thousands...the opening still needs work and I'll do the final fine trimming then. While I want this project to be absolutely PERFECT, I know that it won't be and I'll have to do a bit of fudging here and there.

It's the 10' rule...if it looks good at a glance from 10' away, I'm on the right track.

[Jose Carumba]

Nice patterns Gate. You may want to add a small radius at each corner to prevent.ctscking.

[Gatekeeper]

Jose

Quit sucking up...I'm not moving to the coast to work for you

ctscking?? cracking??

I'll do that for sure.

[Gatekeeper]

I've reconsidered how I am going to adhere the panes of acrylic to the flange...my plan was to use a HD 3M two sided tape, but I realize I have virtually no chance getting the panes in with a consistent rebate around the perimeter. The first moment the tape and glass touch I'll have no adjustment.

I am now going to use SIKA 295UV to both adhere the glass to the flange and fill the rebate. I am working on a few more changes to the installation to better cope with expansion and contraction.

More later.

[Gatekeeper]

The final (I hope) touches of epoxy went on today...primer is the next step.

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[Jose Carumba]

You didn't show up for work again Dan. People here are wondering if you take this job seriously.

[Gatekeeper]

You didn't show up for work again Dan. People here are wondering if you take this job seriously.

I tried but the 3500 mile commute is a bitch!! I got there, and all the doors were locked.

[hobot]

Did you ever look at the Dart thread? Steve shows a really cool builders trick/tool for holding the windows in place while the compound cures.

[Gatekeeper]

Did you ever look at the Dart thread? Steve shows a really cool builders trick/tool for holding the windows in place while the compound cures.

What? Where?

[Gatekeeper]

I found it...I am actually using a couple methods like they used.

[Gatekeeper]

I spoke with my "glass guys" today...as far as the radius bend in the Plexi..he said to build a form and gently heat the plate with a heat gun to release the tension on the glass when I mount it in place. I have some plexi here so I made up a test piece. I took the shape slowly but it...

Worked perfect!!

[Gatekeeper]

Some pics of the bending process...I simply clamped down the glass and warmed it with the heat gun.

I think I'll have get it hotter, and heat both sides, as it returned from a 3/4" centre block and sprung back to 5/16th.

I'll build a jig so I can heat both sides.

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[Ishmael]

You'll need to get it to about 325°F for full drape, and that's tough with a heat gun.
Here's another handy hint: don't take the masking off until you're ready to install. It's amazing how insidious little scratches show up.

[Gatekeeper]

The heat gun worked fine, but slow...but it's only once every 28 years, so I can be patient.

As far a scratches, I know I can handle it with soft cotton gloves and never put a mark on it, but the first week they are in used they will all be scratched somehow. I'll be careful but not anal.

[LowCountryManOfLeisure]

I see you are using sikaflex for sealant.
It may be to late, but did you consider using butyl tape?
Just wondering cause due to my research, butyl seemed to be the way to go.
And why did you choose sikaflex over 3m 5200?
please advise
Thanks
LowCountryMan...

[LowCountryManOfLeisure]

ok I re-read the thread, you are using 3M in addition the sikaflex

[LowCountryManOfLeisure]

My other question is- Were the lites leaking? Or something else? for the reason of the replacement.

Thanks

LCMoL

[Gatekeeper]

My other question is- Were the lites leaking? Or something else? for the reason of the replacement.

Thanks

LCMoL

I'm betting you have never owned a boat with those hateful lites...they only exist in two states, leaking and soon to leak.

The replacement gaskets are expensive and miserable to replace. Within 2 years they have begun to shrink and start pulling out of the frames...I'm looking for a proper solution that solves this issue, doesn't just put a band-aid on it.

As far a butyl tape, I like it but it seems to creep out of joints for years and dirt clings to it forever, but you have to give it full marks for being tough.

[Gatekeeper]

You didn't show up for work again Dan. People here are wondering if you take this job seriously.

Jose

Fritting question...I plan to do the inside face and the edge with black Krylon Fusion, should I do the outside of the glass also?

[Slick470]

I wouldn't frit the outside. It would probably scratch too easily and might look a bit funny too. My vote is just the inside.

[Ishmael]

I wouldn't frit the outside. It would probably scratch too easily and might look a bit funny too. My vote is just the inside.

+1

[Gatekeeper]

The inside only it is!!

[steele]

A question about the bending process. If you had a big enough oven to hold the jig, could you just put it all in, crank to 325 and be done with it?

As far as scratches go the stuff the factory put on the raw material to protect it is really good. I am not sure it would survive a geat gun or oven but leaving it on as long as possible helps a lot. Once in it is not too hard to keep them in good shape. I did my acrylic ports 2 seasons ago now, and they have remained scratch free. I am carefull to flush with lots of water when they get dirty, and then only use a clean micorfiber cloth.

[Gatekeeper]

I would take them to 300f....my glass guys tell me they will be bendable without sagging,.

[jim lee]

We frit it with the actual adhesive. This way the adhesive is holding the stuff to the boat not paint.

-jim lee

[Innocent Bystander]

A question about the bending process. If you had a big enough oven to hold the jig, could you just put it all in, crank to 325 and be done with it?

As far as scratches go the stuff the factory put on the raw material to protect it is really good. I am not sure it would survive a geat gun or oven but leaving it on as long as possible helps a lot. Once in it is not too hard to keep them in good shape. I did my acrylic ports 2 seasons ago now, and they have remained scratch free. I am carefull to flush with lots of water when they get dirty, and then only use a clean micorfiber cloth.

Tried the oven and found that the average home oven has too much variance as it maintains temp. Ruined two attempts and found that heating the oven to 325 and turning it off as I put the form and acrylic in worked OK. Thermoplastics have a small range between forming and melting.

[Jose Carumba]

As others have mentioned the frit should only be inside. If the adhesive/sealant is UV resistant you probably don't need the frit if you do a super neat job so bubbles don't show and all the squeeze-out is trimmed neatly by masking. If you have some extra material it might pay to try some different methods.

[Gatekeeper]

Jose

I like the crisp look of the fritting...I'm definitely going to use it.

[SailAR]

I've never used paint on plexi... has anyone tested the adhesion? you now have three materials you're relying on to adhere to one another through heat cycles, etc.. My inclination is to keep it simple...

We have tinted windows and they are dark enough that you would never see a bubble unless you wanted to stare at it from 2 feet away and even then I doubt it.

[Gatekeeper]

The glass is here....the glass is here!!!!

[Tucky]

We frit it with the actual adhesive. This way the adhesive is holding the stuff to the boat not paint.

-jim lee

Hi Jim,

Love your thread on the Dart builds and your approach. I'm getting nearer to having to do a replacement and wonder if you could say more about how you frit with the adhesive. My guess is that you mask, prepare the surface and skim a coat on somehow? Is there a limit on the timing of this in terms of the adhesive sticking to itself. What is your favorite adhesive?
Thanks

Jesse Deupree

[Ritchard]

The worst commute in North America is in Toronto....really...look it up!!

Oh, I have grown to hate driving here.

[Ishmael]

The commute from Victoria to Toronto is awful.

[Gatekeeper]

Making progress...it was a warm day, perfect for bedding the lights.

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[Innocent Bystander]

Looking great.

[Jose Carumba]

Good job Gate. Looks like you have the recommended 3 Loony gap around the edges.

[Gatekeeper]

Three nickels actually...I'm retired and Loonies are hard to come by.

Coins make great shims

[Jose Carumba]

Looks like a proper job. Pretty much the way we do it. The boat looks sharp.

[Gatekeeper]

Jose

Thanks...

I am going to use minimal fasteners and wasn't able to find Chicago bolts in black, so I painted some. I'm also going to install a small o-ring to seal the outside head to the glass.

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[Gatekeeper]

I made some headway today...the first photo shows the expansion space which is later covered by a plate which will allow the forward and aft glass to move depending on temps...the black painted Chicago bolts just disappeared!!

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[Gatekeeper]

And the most important part...how it looks from a distance.

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[Bob Perry]

That looks very good Dan. Are you going to use that external trim frame?

[Ishmael]

I made some headway today...the first photo shows the expansion space which is later covered by a plate which will allow the forward and aft glass to move depending on temps...the black painted Chicago bolts just disappeared!!

You're doing your usual perfect job on this, Gate. Now you have flashy long ports just like the C&C's. Makes you look faster just sitting there.
The only minor quibble I would have is that I think I prefer the definition between the two ports like Bob presumably originally drew. Presumably. I'm sure he's OK with what you've done to his boat.

[Bob Perry]

Ish:
I prefer it the way Gate has it now. His detail gives it freshness to my eye.

[2slow]

hijack alert!!!! This thread title made me think of something (very rare indeed). Nautical terminology is very specific so as to avoid mistakes. BUT, the title of this thread could have at least three different meanings. Port could be a side of the boat, a place or a hole that lets light through. Just sayin, carry on.

[Gatekeeper]

That looks very good Dan. Are you going to use that external trim frame?

I don't have really anything that would work...I think I'll be sticking with the Euro(trash) look.

One thing I am considering, when the ports were cut out, they were done quite rough as the metal frame would hide any imperfections....despite a lot of work the lines are still not true. After I caulk in the perimeter of the glass I may paint a nice crisp black line, maybe 3/8" wide, beyond the caulking.

Once I have worked a bit more on the edge and it caulked in I'll have a better idea how the edge looks and whether I have to address this.

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[SereneSpeed]

Gate, is the hole for the windows, cut through just one layer of laminate? From your pictures, it looks to be that way. On my boat, the window frames are mounted to the outside walls of the cabin (what's the name?) and there is an interior liner set back about an inch on the inside. Two layers and a big gap.

[Gatekeeper]

Gate, is the hole for the windows, cut through just one layer of laminate? From your pictures, it looks to be that way. On my boat, the window frames are mounted to the outside walls of the cabin (what's the name?) and there is an interior liner set back about an inch on the inside. Two layers and a big gap.

Speed

I thought I was going to face that issue but it turns out Mirage filled that gap all around the port cut outs. The layers would have been about 1/2" apart.

Had that been the case I would have mounted the flanges to the inside of the outer skin, installed the new glazing, then looked for a solution to trim in the interior. I think a simple return stopping about 1/4" from the glass would look good and avoid the two materials from working (squeaking & wearing) against one another.

[Gatekeeper]

FAK!!

I removed the plexi today...the paint seems to have reacted with the Sika 295 and left a gooey mess.

No big deal but I need a better approach. More tomorrow.

Double FAK!!

[Ishmael]

Oh oh. Maybe go to the real Sika primer to make sure it's compatible. That sucks. My regrets if I gave you any bad info. You can take it out of my paycheck.

[Gatekeeper]

Ish

No big deal...the plexiglass wasn't damaged and it cleaned up fine with thinner. I have a plan which I think is foolproof!!

[Gatekeeper]

I have the glass cleaned up and a new plan...

- scuff sand glass for fritting
- mask
- paint the fritting again and let cure
- install 3/8" black butyl tape on the frame flange
- install plexiglass against the butyl taped flange and shim into place...retain with blocks
- edge caulk perimeter with Sika 295UV
- have cold beer

Thoughts?

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[Bob Perry]

"Fritting"?
Just how will you frit the glass?

[Gatekeeper]

"Fritting"?
Just how will you frit the glass?

I think that's the proper term for painting a frame on the inside edge to hide the adhesive/sealer. All cars seem to use it now. I think Jose brought forward the technique.

I'm planning to paint it. I doubt the butyl will bother paint...I could also use black vinyl decal material.

[Bob Perry]

Yeah, I know. I'm the last guy that should make fun of a typo. Old hammer hands.
Every time I try to type "good" it comes out "god". That makes for some funny sentences.

[Gatekeeper]

Actually I think it is "fritting"... I make lots of tiepos but I don't tink this was won of zem.

[steele]

Gate, I have not done an instal like yours, but I have replaced my 6 portlights and it was a huge amount of work. With that in mind I might just give up on paint which is kind of a wild card in your plan. The 295 primer is expensive, but compared to your time is small imvestment in the long run. If you use the primer, you most likely do not need the butyl tape, which I do not think adds much to your plan as the 295 should work well, and the butyl itself adds no adhesive properties, and I am not sure just the edge of 295 is enough to hold the plastic in place. The bolts will help, not shure how much.

Also make sure the 295, and primer if you use it, are not expired. Last time I shopped for it over half of the stock on the store shelf was past the due date.

[Gatekeeper]

Steele...I did this install on the hatches when I reglazed them 5 years ago and they've been perfect since. I should have learned from that I guess.

[steele]

Good point, if you have already done it and it works you are ahead of me on all htis.

[SereneSpeed]

Everything I've read about black butyl is that it will stain your gelcoat if it touches it. I use butyl everywhere I can. I'm fairly tidy with it, but it gets on things after installs, when it creeps...

[Gatekeeper]

Speed...if I do this well (see drawing) I don't think it will creep because it shouldn't get by the 295. I think.

[Ishmael]

Gate, just a thought...how long did you leave the paint before using the Sika? I recommend a minimum of a week to cure, otherwise solvents will lift it or turn it into a gooey mess.

[Jose Carumba]

I think the weak link here is the paint, and it's low adhesion relative to the 295. Maybe allow the 295 to form the fritting after all. The 295 is the UV resistant kind, right? mask the clear area of the glass and butter the perimeter (unpainted) with 295 then carefully install. That should avoid any bubbles against the glass. After the adhesive has set, caulk the crack with more 295 and tool it off. Just another thought.