132 replies to this topic

[GybeSet®]

Not being raked creates a few possibilities.

As distanced a bit from the mast (and closer to the companionway)

• Closer to lifting fully thru the hatch, or extension/removable panel in the coachroof
• Room to get a mast around the keel to the maststep, one that can load the mast at an angle like a t7 or shaw

[HenrikB]

And we've gone completely off topic with the mast stepping . . .
Back to lifting keels and rudders;

The concensus seems to be to have a keel that lifts as far up as the underside of the deckhouse, to avoid all the layout complexities of lifting up through the deck.
This allows the structure inside the boat to remain similar enough to the existing fixed keel that there would no notable difference in weight or performance between the two keel versions.

The rudder option that looks good is a "cassette" style, similar to those discussed above, but with the standard rudder and some very nice composite self-aligning bearings.
Again the weight differential compared the standard arrangement will be a few kgs, so we still ahve a fully competitive GP 26.

I have checked with the ORC and there willbe no issues with the lifting keel as long as it is fixed in the measured position for racing.

I'm following this thread and the build of the GP26 with great interest, todagy I own a 33ft racer cruiser that I use for shorthanded racing as well as during the vacations with the family. I also part own a CB66, a Swedish 6.6m trailerable that we use for one-design racing.
One of the best features with the CB66 is the ramp launching capability, and the possibility to raise the rig on the trailer. We usually go from the parking lot to race ready in 45 minutes!

What would the draft be if the keel only goes to the cabin top? Would it still ramp launch?
The GP26 looks like a perfect boat to me for part owning and lots of fun racing.
The displacement makes it perfect for trailering, but it needs to be possible to launch from a ramp!

[Speng]

You can ramp launch a J80 depending on the ramp and whether you have a trailer extension/strap. In some regards trailer launching may not be an issue. I know a lot of peole in the US who have trailerable boats prefer to hoist them in to prevent their trailers/wheel bearings rusting to pieces but on lakes it is a big plus. No reason why a GP26 shouldn't be as easy to ramp launch as your current boat and it could be a great offshore weapon.

At this size either deck or keel stepped is acceptable and with some thought either should be easy to put up assuming the stick is carbon. I've M24 crews drop their rigs (intentionally) on the water, secure it and have the keel up ready for the trailer while waiting for the crane at St. Pete NOOD.

[GybeSet®]

respectfully No

• NOT unless is draws as little as a cb66/melges24, AND
• Does not have trad. keel stepped mast

you could hand over hundreds of bills to a yard to do it for you

[Kevin Farrar]

Hi All,
I thought I would share a real world number.
Rudder, tiller with nut and bolt, hiking stick, 3 delrin plates, upper and lower bearing, bearing spacer tubes and stopper block with screw. 9.185 kg (20.24 pounds)
Kevin

[TOTALXS]

Location is everything. We owned the SR25 Hull 1 for a while. Prior to us, it lived where the owner could crane it in and out. We had to set up a 8 foot extension to the trailer tongue and lower the boat on the trailer (modified the hatch cover for the higher keel) just to be able to launch it. Still kept it at a club with the rig up, but the clubs crane was over 1 foot of water (and it would have been a bi t dangerous to lift it with the crane anyway,...). Without a lift keel, there is no option in Jacksonville aside from the local old (and overly expensive) yacht club to lift a fixed boat in and out on a regular basis. Trailer launching is really the only option. I suspect Jacksonville Florida is closer to the norm in this regard in the US rather than the exception.

FWIW - had this GP26 been available a few years ago, my name would be on the list. It was what I was looking for and could not find. That said the SR25 was a lot of fun, we learned a lot but the boat was better than we were.

[ClimbnSail]

Herb, having to get a crane to setup your boat everytime would kill it for travelling. (how much in/out per regatta? On top of hotels, gas, crew, etc...)

Love the idea of keel stepped rig, lifting keel stump, no trunk. Cassete rudder. Hmmm these were all on the design brief for the ft10.

All that aside, we get an ft10 from the trailer to the drink in 1:30 with 3 ideally 4 folks who know the drill. No fees, that s why toy tiger gets around.

[windseekeryachts]

Location is everything. We owned the SR25 Hull 1 for a while. Prior to us, it lived where the owner could crane it in and out. We had to set up a 8 foot extension to the trailer tongue and lower the boat on the trailer (modified the hatch cover for the higher keel) just to be able to launch it. Still kept it at a club with the rig up, but the clubs crane was over 1 foot of water (and it would have been a bi t dangerous to lift it with the crane anyway,...). Without a lift keel, there is no option in Jacksonville aside from the local old (and overly expensive) yacht club to lift a fixed boat in and out on a regular basis. Trailer launching is really the only option. I suspect Jacksonville Florida is closer to the norm in this regard in the US rather than the exception.

FWIW - had this GP26 been available a few years ago, my name would be on the list. It was what I was looking for and could not find. That said the SR25 was a lot of fun, we learned a lot but the boat was better than we were.

And we've gone completely off topic with the mast stepping . . .
Back to lifting keels and rudders;

The concensus seems to be to have a keel that lifts as far up as the underside of the deckhouse, to avoid all the layout complexities of lifting up through the deck.
This allows the structure inside the boat to remain similar enough to the existing fixed keel that there would no notable difference in weight or performance between the two keel versions.

The rudder option that looks good is a "cassette" style, similar to those discussed above, but with the standard rudder and some very nice composite self-aligning bearings.
Again the weight differential compared the standard arrangement will be a few kgs, so we still ahve a fully competitive GP 26.

I have checked with the ORC and there willbe no issues with the lifting keel as long as it is fixed in the measured position for racing.

I'm following this thread and the build of the GP26 with great interest, todagy I own a 33ft racer cruiser that I use for shorthanded racing as well as during the vacations with the family. I also part own a CB66, a Swedish 6.6m trailerable that we use for one-design racing.
One of the best features with the CB66 is the ramp launching capability, and the possibility to raise the rig on the trailer. We usually go from the parking lot to race ready in 45 minutes!

What would the draft be if the keel only goes to the cabin top? Would it still ramp launch?
The GP26 looks like a perfect boat to me for part owning and lots of fun racing.
The displacement makes it perfect for trailering, but it needs to be possible to launch from a ramp!

draft will be about 1 meter with keel going to cabin top.
ramp launch a little bit depends on the ramp really. We will have a special trailer for doing so..

[Ryley]

I think most places I go I could deal with a 3' draft at launch.

[Heriberto]

If people need ramp launching for their area, then that's what they need and anything to get more boats out on the water. It's a great thing that this has sparked so much interest, because this is the next boat I intend to buy (with a fixed keel!) and I hope that this option leads to more boats on the water, rather than just words on the internet. It sounds like the design is there and all somebody has to do is write a check for a boat with that option and it will happen.

Kevin brought up a good point in another thread: GP26 regattas should NOT be held places where the ONLY viable means of launching is trailer launching. That wouldn't be fair to the pioneers like Kevin who built their boats without that potential, or people like myself who's areas don't require (or don't even accomodate!) ramp launching and have no interest in spending the extra cash for the extra hassle of lifting foils. Sorry, but the reality is that lifting keels, retractable rudders, etc are added expense, weight, and maintenance, and they shouldn't be shoved down people's throat. If somebody else makes that choice, that is their business, Mazoltov! But that is a problem for the future. Getting boats on the water is the current problem.

I would point out that people have regattaed J22's, J24's, Etchels, Mumm 30's etc. for decades, huge fleets, all crane launched. When I ran a regatta, we offered free crane service for one design classes like those boats, S2 7.9's (which is still easier to launch with a crane than ramp) and others. It came out cheap as long as people were ready to go and there were always extra hands. I guess where I'm going with this is I think it would be as wrong to require a lifting keel setup as outlaw a lifting keel setup. Now, an easily installed mast, one that doesn't require a crane, would be another story entirely, because who wouldn't want that? It's installing the mast that really takes up the crane time.

I'm not bashing on lifting keels, if you need it you need it. For me, I wouldn't be able to sail a GP26 in my local lake (Minnetonka), even though we have a one point lift crane, for a completely different reason: because the T-keel would load up with weeds even sitting at the dock, and no kelp cutter would be able to handle the load of weed we have here. I'm not going to be asking for a swept fin GP26 though, I'll put the boat at the venue it works!

[HenrikB]

I think most places I go I could deal with a 3' draft at launch.

To me, trailer launch means launching without getting the wheel hub bearings below water.
The bulb should preferably go all the way up to the bottom of the hull.
Could the keel go trough a removable part of the cabin top? Then it could be hoisted to the roof inside the boat, or, when getting it on the trailer, all the way up. My experience is that ramps are ususally built for smaller power boats, 3ft is usually deeper than at the end of the ramp...

[GybeSet®]

it's a niche boat I think henrik

not gonna sell like say a Farrier say which can be launched shallow, & mast raised all by one person,
and have sold in the hundreds

saying that I hope they get the mast raising right.

I think most other countries would have lesser quality ramps than the US who, going by their 'big' everything
(ie a dodge ram is a personal two seater) try to launch Bayliners & have the ramps to suit,
ours here are for fishing 'tinnies' ... alloy boats

[Steam Flyer]

... ...

I would point out that people have regattaed J22's, J24's, Etchels, Mumm 30's etc. for decades, huge fleets, all crane launched. When I ran a regatta, we offered free crane service for one design classes like those boats, S2 7.9's (which is still easier to launch with a crane than ramp) and others. It came out cheap as long as people were ready to go
...

The s2 7.9 is a royal PITA to trailer, rig, launch & recover. I would point to it a good example of a boat that was designed & engineered to sail first and be trailerable as an afterthought. I know a dozen or so ex-7.9 sailors (although most of them are too polite to say they gave it up because it's a such a friggin nightmare).

With some thought and good design, it -should- be possible to make a boat with minimum performance compromise that is also easy(er) to trailer-rig-launch than Grampa's boats were. This will get the boat into a lot more venues with a lot more sailors!

There are plenty of fixed-keel boats already. For the people who want a fixed-keel GP26, they exist already too. Then there are plenty of lifting-keel boats that don't have anywhere near the capability of the GP26 and most of them are too much of a PITA to bother with anyway. I don't see the point in going to all the trouble to design & create a ramp-launchable GP26 if it's just going down the same blind alley as other boats that already exist in large numbers.

FB- Doug

[dolphinmaster]

If people need ramp launching for their area, then that's what they need and anything to get more boats out on the water. It's a great thing that this has sparked so much interest, because this is the next boat I intend to buy (with a fixed keel!) and I hope that this option leads to more boats on the water, rather than just words on the internet. It sounds like the design is there and all somebody has to do is write a check for a boat with that option and it will happen.

Kevin brought up a good point in another thread: GP26 regattas should NOT be held places where the ONLY viable means of launching is trailer launching. That wouldn't be fair to the pioneers like Kevin who built their boats without that potential, or people like myself who's areas don't require (or don't even accomodate!) ramp launching and have no interest in spending the extra cash for the extra hassle of lifting foils. Sorry, but the reality is that lifting keels, retractable rudders, etc are added expense, weight, and maintenance, and they shouldn't be shoved down people's throat. If somebody else makes that choice, that is their business, Mazoltov! But that is a problem for the future. Getting boats on the water is the current problem.

I would point out that people have regattaed J22's, J24's, Etchels, Mumm 30's etc. for decades, huge fleets, all crane launched. When I ran a regatta, we offered free crane service for one design classes like those boats, S2 7.9's (which is still easier to launch with a crane than ramp) and others. It came out cheap as long as people were ready to go and there were always extra hands. I guess where I'm going with this is I think it would be as wrong to require a lifting keel setup as outlaw a lifting keel setup. Now, an easily installed mast, one that doesn't require a crane, would be another story entirely, because who wouldn't want that? It's installing the mast that really takes up the crane time.

I'm not bashing on lifting keels, if you need it you need it. For me, I wouldn't be able to sail a GP26 in my local lake (Minnetonka), even though we have a one point lift crane, for a completely different reason: because the T-keel would load up with weeds even sitting at the dock, and no kelp cutter would be able to handle the load of weed we have here. I'm not going to be asking for a swept fin GP26 though, I'll put the boat at the venue it works!

Dude, get off the bad weed.

[Tunnel Rat]

I sail a lifting keel sportsboat that is dry sailed, the mast is in place on the hard. One thing that may be relevant is the location of the keel relative to the masthead is important if a crane is going to be used to lift the keel with the mast in place. If the masthead is too close to a line vertically above the keel it can get very expensive for someone in replacement masthead units, although it can still work with a heavy person on the front of the boat when hooking up.

Also, in order to get a sensible stability rating (I think it was SSSN) the skipper installed a locking device that prevented the keel from moving once locked.

Do the current GP26s comply with Cat 3 requirements? Most of the races here that I would consider doing in a GP26 are Cat 4 at most.

[Jim Donovan]

Performance consequence(s) to absence of keel rake?

No perseptable difference

[Jim Donovan]

Hi All,
I thought I would share a real world number.
Rudder, tiller with nut and bolt, hiking stick, 3 delrin plates, upper and lower bearing, bearing spacer tubes and stopper block with screw. 9.185 kg (20.24 pounds)
Kevin

Nice job Kevin! Lighter than a Melges 24 rudder and tiller; and your blade is about 50% larger

[Jim Donovan]

I sail a lifting keel sportsboat that is dry sailed, the mast is in place on the hard. One thing that may be relevant is the location of the keel relative to the masthead is important if a crane is going to be used to lift the keel with the mast in place. If the masthead is too close to a line vertically above the keel it can get very expensive for someone in replacement masthead units, although it can still work with a heavy person on the front of the boat when hooking up.

Also, in order to get a sensible stability rating (I think it was SSSN) the skipper installed a locking device that prevented the keel from moving once locked.

Do the current GP26s comply with Cat 3 requirements? Most of the races here that I would consider doing in a GP26 are Cat 4 at most.

I design the boat to be slightly bow down trim when it lifts to keep the mast clear of the crane. Shifting the sail location in the boat is usually enough to compensate.

The keel will be bolted down in place; the GP 26 rules do not allow moving the keel, and for safety I will not accept a keel that can possibly raise while sailing.

GP 26 is designed to Cat 3 regs

[Jim Donovan]

The Windseeker GP26, and Kevin Farrar's boats were designed as a "no compromise" racer - decisions about keel/rudder/rig/deck layout/interior layout carefully worked out to yield the highest performance within the GP 26 rules.

The boat was NOT designed to be a "trailer sailer".

The challenge is adjusting this design to accomodate the need for some people who only have the ramp option availabe where they sail.
I believe we have a solution available for those sailors that does not comprominse the design, and they will appreciate that their boat has not been compromised in any way.

For people who really want a boat designed for ramp launching, I am promoting the idea of my 6m design, which is designed for this;
Keel lifts straight out the hatch, outboard rudder, and an easy 1 person mast stepping arrangement.

[Heriberto]

There are plenty of fixed-keel boats already. For the people who want a fixed-keel GP26, they exist already too. Then there are plenty of lifting-keel boats that don't have anywhere near the capability of the GP26 and most of them are too much of a PITA to bother with anyway. I don't see the point in going to all the trouble to design & create a ramp-launchable GP26 if it's just going down the same blind alley as other boats that already exist in large numbers.

FB- Doug

Trying to understand your point about a blind alley. Do you mean a ramp-launchable boat that is a PITA to ramp launch? My perspective is I haven't met one that isn't a PITA to ramp launch. Aside from my I-14. That was easy! A boat like Jim's GP26, which was designed as a no-compromise, fixed keel, high performance Cat 3 race boat, is likely going to be slightly more difficult to trailer launch than a purpose-built, trailer-launch sport boat of similar size.

How easy or difficult a boat is to launch;usually comes down more to how difficult it is to get the rig up, as well as how well your trailer is setup. That goes for fixed keel boats as well. Whether it ramp launches or not, if there is a good system for installing the mast quickly, it will be easy to regatta.

You are right though, we are a long way from the 7.9, thank god.

[Steam Flyer]

... ...
Trying to understand your point about a blind alley. Do you mean a ramp-launchable boat that is a PITA to ramp launch? My perspective is I haven't met one that isn't a PITA to ramp launch.

errr uh, yeah... I don't know what boats you've had experience with, but we can probably agree that some are better than others. Ryley's Elliott 770 is not bad at all for what you get; although it suffers somewhat from much of it being assembled from lower-grade off-the-shelf parts such as the mast step he mentioned.

Aside from my I-14. That was easy!

Funny you should say; my limited experience with I14s is that they don't even need to be ramp launched, they are so light you can cartop the hull easier than a Laser. Standing the mast up is easy but all the rigging needed is definitely a PITA to my perspective.

This gets to a point often overlooked... how much stuff do you need to do to go from trailer to sailing or vice-versa? I've watched E-scow guys literally take 2x time than J-24 guys, because they want to have 50-leven things all strung thru the deck to multiple purchases & split controls; totally disconnect the rig & re-tune it every time, etc etc. They then will tell you how easy it is, without batting an eye.

A boat like Jim's GP26, which was designed as a no-compromise, fixed keel, high performance Cat 3 race boat, is likely going to be slightly more difficult to trailer launch than a purpose-built, trailer-launch sport boat of similar size.

How easy or difficult a boat is to launch;usually comes down more to how difficult it is to get the rig up, as well as how well your trailer is setup. That goes for fixed keel boats as well. Whether it ramp launches or not, if there is a good system for installing the mast quickly, it will be easy to regatta.

You are right though, we are a long way from the 7.9, thank god.

The 7.9 isn't a bad boat at all; I prefer it to the J24 by a huge margin. I was a member of a club with a few in the parking lot, they are not all that practical to dry-sail off a trailer much less rig/unrig for road trips. It's because the trailer-ability was totally an afterthough, so much of the stuff is in it's own way for trailering.

After some thought & searching I bought a Santana 23 which is very nice for dry-sailing off a trailer. However getting the mast up & down is a half-day 3 man job, just because (as before) so much of the rig is in it's own way. And it's nowhere near a sportboat in sailing characteristics!

As you say, much depends on how the trailer is set up. However care & attention to the rig is also well worth while.

As Jim said above, it's not going to be a trailer-sailer although I (and looks like many others) would dry-sail it off a trailer. And the performance shouldn't be compromised (or at least, should be compromised only a tiny undetectable amount). Since the rule was written with road transport in mind already, why not take the next step with it?

FB- Doug

[Heriberto]

Dry sailing off a trailer would be the bomb, especially if you had a swing crane!

These boats would be awesome in venues like Shilshole where you can dry sail off a center point lift. I did that there on a Hobie 33, took literally 10-15 minutes to put in the water. If Jim says you can lift the fully-rigged boat and it will balance nicely slight bow down off the center point so the mast clears the crane, you can trust him that is true, since my Donovan 30 that he designed in 1985 does just that.

Ramp launching is more than just lifting foils, so it's tough to stay on topic. Should really have a broader thread.

[windseekeryachts]

Hi All, thanks for all the contribution.
After about a month of collecting ideas on this Forum, brainstorming between us, and getting some ideas from potential clients sending emails directly,
We came to following conclusions on the lifting keel.
KEEL
· Keel to be raised inside the boat.
· With about 1 meter inside the boat and about the same below the hull when raised. So this will result in 3.28 feet draft when raised
· No sailing with keel raised
· 100% compliant with ORC GP26 class rules
· There will be minimum difference between fixed keel and lifting keel keels
RUDDER
· A casette type rudder like discussed above.
· No sailing with half rudder.
· Motoring from hoist to rudder installation where is enough draft
· 100% compliand with ORC GP26 class rules
· There will be minimum difference between fixed keel and lifting keel rudders

The lifting keel version will be minimum compromise lifting keel raceboat. Minimum or no performance difference is expected btw fixed and lifting keel versions.
This boat is intended to be drysailed where there is draft constraints at launch however it is not a 100% trailer sailer...
For further info please contact me or Jim directly.
serhad.

[set321go]

Hi All, thanks for all the contribution.
After about a month of collecting ideas on this Forum, brainstorming between us, and getting some ideas from potential clients sending emails directly,
We came to following conclusions on the lifting keel.
KEEL
· Keel to be raised inside the boat.
· With about 1 meter inside the boat and about the same below the hull when raised. So this will result in 3.28 feet draft when raised
· No sailing with keel raised
· 100% compliant with ORC GP26 class rules
· There will be minimum difference between fixed keel and lifting keel keels
RUDDER
· A casette type rudder like discussed above.
· No sailing with half rudder.
· Motoring from hoist to rudder installation where is enough draft
· 100% compliand with ORC GP26 class rules
· There will be minimum difference between fixed keel and lifting keel rudders

The lifting keel version will be minimum compromise lifting keel raceboat. Minimum or no performance difference is expected btw fixed and lifting keel versions.
This boat is intended to be drysailed where there is draft constraints at launch however it is not a 100% trailer sailer...
For further info please contact me or Jim directly.
serhad.

price difference?

[windseekeryachts]

Hi All, thanks for all the contribution.
After about a month of collecting ideas on this Forum, brainstorming between us, and getting some ideas from potential clients sending emails directly,
We came to following conclusions on the lifting keel.
KEEL
· Keel to be raised inside the boat.
· With about 1 meter inside the boat and about the same below the hull when raised. So this will result in 3.28 feet draft when raised
· No sailing with keel raised
· 100% compliant with ORC GP26 class rules
· There will be minimum difference between fixed keel and lifting keel keels
RUDDER
· A casette type rudder like discussed above.
· No sailing with half rudder.
· Motoring from hoist to rudder installation where is enough draft
· 100% compliand with ORC GP26 class rules
· There will be minimum difference between fixed keel and lifting keel rudders

The lifting keel version will be minimum compromise lifting keel raceboat. Minimum or no performance difference is expected btw fixed and lifting keel versions.
This boat is intended to be drysailed where there is draft constraints at launch however it is not a 100% trailer sailer...
For further info please contact me or Jim directly.
serhad.

price difference?

10,000 usd or circa €7,750 these days price over the basic fixed keel boat

[Ryley]

So the option is now on the wraceboat site. Any drawings? Pictures?

[Savage 17]

So the option is now on the wraceboat site. Any drawings? Pictures?

Ryley......when are you going to buy one of these? I guess you and Herb need to sell your existing boats!

[Ryley]

Savage, that's the plan, but it's a fairly long-term plan. My guess is that *if* I pull the trigger, it'll be for the non-lifting keel standard version.

Plus it depends on how good a deal Kev gives me on sails

[windseekeryachts]

We have been very quiet for a while. Yes now the lifting keel is on web site. Jim started sending the build to drawings. And we started with the plugs. Build due to start in February for the 2 pre-ordered boats for USA.
Will post some drawings, pics soon.

Cheers,

[The Gardener]

The Melges 32 finally came up with a workable solution that kept the class from imploding. I think a similar concept would work well. The concept I have in mind is a watertight shaft that goes through the whole boat, sized large enough to slide the rudder through. The bearing assembly, bearing housing and rudder are kept as complete one unit which fits in that shaft, creating a flush surface at the bottom of the hull.

This would be simpler, much cheaper, and much lighter than twin transom hungs and wouldn't introduce the "unknown factor" that twins would add. Depending on design, it would also be much more robust. Only problem is you wouldn't be able to use a belowdecks autohelm for anybody that wanted to shorthand.

There are always tradeoffs.

WTF is that

[Christian]

The Melges 32 finally came up with a workable solution that kept the class from imploding. I think a similar concept would work well. The concept I have in mind is a watertight shaft that goes through the whole boat, sized large enough to slide the rudder through. The bearing assembly, bearing housing and rudder are kept as complete one unit which fits in that shaft, creating a flush surface at the bottom of the hull.

This would be simpler, much cheaper, and much lighter than twin transom hungs and wouldn't introduce the "unknown factor" that twins would add. Depending on design, it would also be much more robust. Only problem is you wouldn't be able to use a belowdecks autohelm for anybody that wanted to shorthand.

There are always tradeoffs.

WTF is that

BS

[Heriberto]

WTF is that

BS

I meant compared to my recollection of the M30. Poorly worded, my huge apologies. But congrats to you both on pointless thread hijacking. Oh, and yeah, we all say dumb shit and BS some times, which The Gardner will agree.

Right?

[yogiwood]

A bit off topic , concerning another advantage of keel stepped mast in a gp26. Rig weight min. is 45kg. , for a given section

the keel stepped is stronger, plus and the main point, that extra meter of spar helps to lower the CG of the spar without
artifically adding in extra weight,in the lower spar sections to arrive at the Mcg rule of 3 meters.
In my case more important as I am using a kenyon 3350 aluminium spar section, I am sure with the carbon masts they
can do all sorts of things.