107 replies to this topic

[Zonker]

http://www.cruisingw...w-island-packet

"For with the introduction of the company’s new Blue Jacket 40, the first in a new series of performance cruising sailboats, IP is certainly expanding its scope beyond its familiar fleet of blue-water voyagers.

And to underscore their commitment to the “performance” aspect of the concept, in yet another first, Johnson is collaborating on the project with another renowned naval architect, Tim Jackett, whose name for many years has been synonymous with Tartan and C&C."

In an interview Bob said it was clear that the boat's design was Tim's with input from Bob.

But will it be beige?

[the_abandoned_brane]

bluejacket v40

tartan 4000

[Soñadora]

because nothing screams performance like a hoyt jib boom

[Heavy Metal]

because nothing screams performance like a hoyt jib boom

And weighs 7,500kgs . . . .

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Guys,

Come on, these folks finally get a design with a fin keel and you're beating them up about it??? We're talking MAJOR PROGRESS here! It's no JuanK design, but it's a heck of a big step forward into the 1960s for a company that has been building boats from the 1930s for so long.

BV

[Gatekeeper]

At first glance all I can say is I like it...it is appealing to the eye.

[jackdaw]

I'm kinda digging it. Like brane I did a double-take and thought Tartan 4k, but I like all the work and effort reducing features in a boat with a SA/D of over 20. We double hand Kestrel all the time with a similar SAD, and even though she has all the possible tricks to help us out in that regard, sometimes we think that a little more would be nice. That reacher on the furler, hoyt boom, and park ave sound like just the ticket. Check back with me in 10 years.

I am however not expecting much of a One Design fleet.

[Tom Ray]

Guys,

Come on, these folks finally get a design with a fin keel and you're beating them up about it??? We're talking MAJOR PROGRESS here! It's no JuanK design, but it's a heck of a big step forward into the 1960s for a company that has been building boats from the 1930s for so long.

BV

I downloaded the brochure to get the specs, which is darn silly from a web development point of view, but that's another topic.

7'5" draft fin keel is as useless as most others to me. It puts large areas of Charlotte Harbor and the Bahamas off limits and there are few channels it can navigate without waiting for the highest of tides (the ones that do not happen in winter, when people who could afford such a thing are here.)

They have a 5'2" shoal keel version. That's 2" outside my limit. Yes, those two inches really matter.

[Merit 25]

Do we care what it rates?

[MoeAlfa]

Do we care what it rates?

If it shows up in PHRF C/D you do.

[kent_island_sailor]

Why not bring back the centerboard?
The C&Cs with about 5 feet of draft board up and 7-8 feet board down are quite popular in the Chesapeake. Over 6 foot draft around here for anything but a 100% race boat = no sales at all.

Guys,

Come on, these folks finally get a design with a fin keel and you're beating them up about it??? We're talking MAJOR PROGRESS here! It's no JuanK design, but it's a heck of a big step forward into the 1960s for a company that has been building boats from the 1930s for so long.

BV

I downloaded the brochure to get the specs, which is darn silly from a web development point of view, but that's another topic.

7'5" draft fin keel is as useless as most others to me. It puts large areas of Charlotte Harbor and the Bahamas off limits and there are few channels it can navigate without waiting for the highest of tides (the ones that do not happen in winter, when people who could afford such a thing are here.)

They have a 5'2" shoal keel version. That's 2" outside my limit. Yes, those two inches really matter.

[Soñadora]

I've never thought IPs to be 'ugly' and this one is better looking than other IPs. When I first started looking at cruisers, I considered IP.

Two things though. 1.) cabin trunk seems a bit too long B.) If this has that same funky layout as other IPs, I'll pass. Never much cared for the salon on IP.

[Roleur]

I look at it the opposite way. Finally, they designed a boat for the rest of the world (not draft restriced areas). Not everyone sails in restricted draft areas and having a 5' draft on a 40' boat when the water is 100's or 1000's of feet deep is unnecessary. Our boat has a 7' draft and I don't feel limited at all by where I can go (i.e. I don't have any interest in going where 7' would be a problem) and I love the performance advantages.

For those that have draft restrictions the pink piglets are still available.

[kent_island_sailor]

I have to go a LONG way to find a place where draft isn't an issue. Like longer than I can get off work at one time except maybe once a year.

[Soñadora]

I look at it the opposite way. Finally, they designed a boat for the rest of the world (not draft restriced areas). Not everyone sails in restricted draft areas and having a 5' draft on a 40' boat when the water is 100's or 1000's of feet deep is unnecessary. Our boat has a 7' draft and I don't feel limited at all by where I can go (i.e. I don't have any interest in going where 7' would be a problem) and I love the performance advantages.

For those that have draft restrictions the pink piglets are still available.

I've always wondered about that draft thing. Sure, the Chesapeake is a bit of a problem and Bahamas (but not all of the Bahamas, though, right?). It's a pretty damn big world. I'm with Justin. If we ever get tired of our little brick, I will seriously be looking at something sportier with deeper keel. The only exception would be finding a performance boat that's easily traierable.

But, I don't see us getting tired of Soñadora any time soon and she needs 6' to feel comfortable. 5' in dead calm.

I have to go a LONG way to find a place where draft isn't an issue. Like longer than I can get off work at one time except maybe once a year.

Sounds like you need to move

[Roleur]

I have to go a LONG way to find a place where draft isn't an issue. Like longer than I can get off work at one time except maybe once a year.

It's a pink piglet for you then! Sorry for your loss.

[SemiSalt]

Draft is not a problem sailing in WLIS, but it's a problem in cruising harbors just about everywhere from Cape May to Cape Ann.

The Bluejacket (or BlueJackett) looks 50% Tartan, 25% Shannon, 25% whatever else. It's very blocky.

I'm way out of the target market for something like this which may be why there are things I don't understand. If you are cruisy enough to carry to sails on two furlers all the time, are you racy enough to need two wheels? Is the sheet winch really too far forward for the helmsman to reach it? Or is it electric and he can reach a button? Or will boat be on autopilot so he can go round the wheel to the winch at his leisure?

There should be special adjective for boats so wide at the stern they can fit two doubles side by side.

[crash]

Semi,
The two wheels have nothing to do with racy...and everything to do with a stern wide enough for two doubles side by side. Put one wheel back there and it either needs to be gigantic, or if conventionally sized, you'd be unable to sit outboard to steer. It also provides a convenient walk thru to the transom when anchored.

As for draft, while an issue in some areas, this may not be your boat if you're primarily going to cruise the Ches Bay or Bahama's. That leaves alot of water in alot of places if those are not your cruising grounds. Though a centerboard solution a la the J/108 would work nicely in this case.
Crash

[Tom Ray]

Sure, the Chesapeake is a bit of a problem and Bahamas (but not all of the Bahamas, though, right?). It's a pretty damn big world. ...

Not all, it's true. You can go to Nassau, but why would anyone who did not need parts or access to a major airport want to do that?

On a more serious note, the Bahama Banks are generally 15 feet deep or so, so you can get around. You just can't stop in that many places, including most of the interesting ones. I go to stop. I have twice been stopped in approach channels because 5' was just an bit too much. How far out did you want to anchor anyway?

The world is large, but sailboats are slow and only parts of it are within range if you don't have months or years to cruise.

[jackdaw]

Tom,

It s clear that IP has your interests (and cruising grounds) at heart. After all, they're made what, 100 miles from you?? ;^)

A local broker has 2 IP37s (a classic and an estero) sitting uncommissioned in slips at our marina for the last 2 years. I bet he would pay someone to take one away. That full keel and shallow draft makes no sense here. Sons and I got it lucky. Unless you can smell the pine trees, you are in at least 100 foot of water.

[Innocent Bystander]

Semi,
The two wheels have nothing to do with racy...and everything to do with a stern wide enough for two doubles side by side. Put one wheel back there and it either needs to be gigantic, or if conventionally sized, you'd be unable to sit outboard to steer. It also provides a convenient walk thru to the transom when anchored.

As for draft, while an issue in some areas, this may not be your boat if you're primarily going to cruise the Ches Bay or Bahama's. That leaves alot of water in alot of places if those are not your cruising grounds. Though a centerboard solution a la the J/108 would work nicely in this case.
Crash

Of course the J-108 has been a really hot seller. I think they built 2.

[Salazar]

Tom,

It s clear that IP has your interests (and cruising grounds) at heart. After all, they're made what, 100 miles from you?? ;^)

A local broker has 2 IP37s (a classic and an estero) sitting uncommissioned in slips at our marina for the last 2 years. I bet he would pay someone to take one away. That full keel and shallow draft makes no sense here. Sons and I got it lucky. Unless you can smell the pine trees, you are in at least 100 foot of water.

I'm in the same boat. The Bras d'Or Lake is 350' deep off my lake property. Draft is seldom an issue around here.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Tom,

I do understand about draft. We bumped the mud a few times while up-river in the Sacramento River Delta a few months ago. But where I normally sail the water is deep enough that you can tie up alongside a lot of the shore without the keel touching. I've the good fortune to live on the steep side of the country. That said, our old Wylie cruising boat had 6' of draft board up and 14'9" board down. I remain surprised that more "production" builders don't put daggerboards or centerboards into their boats. Ya, I understand it can be expensive, but if it's the lower-n-lock type then a lot of the difficulties go away and it isn't that often that a cruiser would want to "adjust" the CB or DB. On the Wylie we trimmed out the weather helm by sweeping the CB aft, a nice option if you can get it.

BV

[kent_island_sailor]

Boats with draft board-up between 4 and 5 feet were VERY common in the late 50s-early 70s era. The reason we own our C&C 35 is the previous owners moved to a place where they needed 4 feet draft to get in their slip and bought a centerboard C&C.

Tom,

I do understand about draft. We bumped the mud a few times while up-river in the Sacramento River Delta a few months ago. But where I normally sail the water is deep enough that you can tie up alongside a lot of the shore without the keel touching. I've the good fortune to live on the steep side of the country. That said, our old Wylie cruising boat had 6' of draft board up and 14'9" board down. I remain surprised that more "production" builders don't put daggerboards or centerboards into their boats. Ya, I understand it can be expensive, but if it's the lower-n-lock type then a lot of the difficulties go away and it isn't that often that a cruiser would want to "adjust" the CB or DB. On the Wylie we trimmed out the weather helm by sweeping the CB aft, a nice option if you can get it.

BV

[Tom Ray]

Beau,

I think there are two answers. One, people don't want the expense and maintenance issues. Two, the performance increase is not that great over a shoal keel of some kind. Possible third answer: we put bigger engines these days and use them more.

Two friends have centerboard cruisers, a Tartan 3100 and an old Morgan 30. The rebuild of the board in the Tartan last year turned into a pretty epic nightmare. I think it's still not quite right.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

It's too bad that CB designs aren't what they used to be. I used to crew on a great old '20s Alden schooner with a BIG board and it was never ever a problem. Of course it wasn't cheap and it wasn't light, but it was strong as hell. The same with the Wylie we owned. I guess folks just aren't putting enough design/build effort into the CBs. No reason it can't be done right.

[kent_island_sailor]

One development might be that cruisers now mostly motor to windward and thus don't need the extra draft.

[SemiSalt]

You just can't stop in that many places, including most of the interesting ones.

Point of view is by informed experience. If you have a kayak, a foot of water is OK, and couple miles is a pretty decent distance. If you have a 40-er, a foot of water is dry land and you may motor a couple miles before you raise the sails. If you grew up in centerboarders, you might think places like Duck Island Roads are appropriate for lunch or even overnight. If you have 7-feet of draft, they are excluded from your thinking.

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[MidPack]

Another nice cruiser (good luck), but "performance" is a real stretch...

[Steam Flyer]

I look at it the opposite way. Finally, they designed a boat for the rest of the world (not draft restriced areas). Not everyone sails in restricted draft areas...

Incorrect.

Everybody who comes anywhere near a shoreline sails in a draft-restricted area. However in many places, the 'draft doesn't matter' propaganda has taken hold.

FB- Doug

[kent_island_sailor]

For an IP, I would say NOT a stretch

Another nice cruiser (good luck), but "performance" is a real stretch...

[us7070]

It's too bad that CB designs aren't what they used to be. I used to crew on a great old '20s Alden schooner with a BIG board and it was never ever a problem. Of course it wasn't cheap and it wasn't light, but it was strong as hell. The same with the Wylie we owned. I guess folks just aren't putting enough design/build effort into the CBs. No reason it can't be done right.

The swing keel on the Pogo 12.50 looks to me like a way of doing it right

[Innocent Bystander]

Beau,

I think there are two answers. One, people don't want the expense and maintenance issues. Two, the performance increase is not that great over a shoal keel of some kind. Possible third answer: we put bigger engines these days and use them more.

I think this is the biggest influence. I'd happily have a CB over the high drag and inefficient "wing" I'm dragging around but the inefficient shoal keels just require a different mold for the lead. A good K/CB setup requires a significantly larger interruption in the build sequence.

[Roleur]

I look at it the opposite way. Finally, they designed a boat for the rest of the world (not draft restriced areas). Not everyone sails in restricted draft areas...

Incorrect.

Everybody who comes anywhere near a shoreline sails in a draft-restricted area. However in many places, the 'draft doesn't matter' propaganda has taken hold.

FB- Doug

Semantics...

But propaganda. I don't get that. If I can sail where I want to sail and anchor where I want to anchor with a deep draft vessel, then draft doesn't matter. That's not propaganda. It's a fact.

[Bob Perry]

What we have here is a clear case of depth envy. ( in my best imitation of the warden from COOL HAND LUKE)

Draft is a personal decision and based on where you sail your boat. If it's deep where you sail go for the deep draft. If it's not deep where you sail go for shoal draft. That's not "propaganda".
I can't see where the argument is.

[kent_island_sailor]

Call it what you will, but with 7 foot draft you are going the long way around Kent Island and Tilghman Island, not getting in Swan Creek at all, not getting into my marina at all except maybe a real high tide and then you're stuck, running aground 8 times a day instead of 4 in the ICW, needing binoculars to see the beach you're anchored off of in the Bahamas, staying in the outer anchorage at Saint Michaels, going the long way around Cape May, not getting into Queenstown at all, and about 1,000 other annoyances between Cape May and the Exumas.

But propaganda. I don't get that. If I can sail where I want to sail and anchor where I want to anchor with a deep draft vessel, then draft doesn't matter. That's not propaganda. It's a fact.

[Slick470]

A 5'-6" we have the deepest draft in our marina on the Chesapeake and at or near low tide we push a little mud going through the channel.

There are much bigger cruising sailboats in there, but they are all c/b or shoal keels. 7 foot wouldn't happen.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Wow, Kent, those sound like a host of reasons I won't go cruising there! Geeesh.... All kidding aside, there are so many thousands of places I can get to over here on the Steeper Coast with my 6.5' draft I haven't ever given a thought to running out of terrific places to cruise/race to.

BV

[Roleur]

Call it what you will, but with 7 foot draft you are going the long way around Kent Island and Tilghman Island, not getting in Swan Creek at all, not getting into my marina at all except maybe a real high tide and then you're stuck, running aground 8 times a day instead of 4 in the ICW, needing binoculars to see the beach you're anchored off of in the Bahamas, staying in the outer anchorage at Saint Michaels, going the long way around Cape May, not getting into Queenstown at all, and about 1,000 other annoyances between Cape May and the Exumas.

But propaganda. I don't get that. If I can sail where I want to sail and anchor where I want to anchor with a deep draft vessel, then draft doesn't matter. That's not propaganda. It's a fact.

Reminder: I said "where I want to sail". That would be places like the PNW, Maine, the Baltic, New Zealand, Alaska, the Ocean, etc. I'm not going the long way around much of anything because I don't have much/any interest in sailing in the draft restricted regions of the world. And I enjoy the performance advantage of draft far too much to feel I'm missing out.

Draft is only an issue if you choose to sail where draft is an issue. So many places in this world where that is not the case. On the West Coast of the US if you have 10' draft or 5' draft you worry about the depth the same amount. Either is too shallow for both or plenty deep for both.

I have never, ever anchored in less than 10 feet of water.

[Tom Ray]

Wow, Kent, those sound like a host of reasons I won't go cruising there! Geeesh.... All kidding aside, there are so many thousands of places I can get to over here on the Steeper Coast with my 6.5' draft I haven't ever given a thought to running out of terrific places to cruise/race to.

BV

Manufacturers give it a thought with good reason. If your boat is no good on the entire Gulf Coast and some of the boatiest parts of the East Coast, it had better be a real star where it can be used, or you will never sell very many.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Well, Tom, I don't think the guys who built our boat gave it any thought at all. We own one of ten of these and the yard has only built about 50 boats total, almost all of them with draft a lot more than 6'. But their target is the Med, UK and Carib. There is one sister ship in Newport RI but these guys are hardly a "volume" builder.

[kdh]

It's too bad that CB designs aren't what they used to be. I used to crew on a great old '20s Alden schooner with a BIG board and it was never ever a problem. Of course it wasn't cheap and it wasn't light, but it was strong as hell. The same with the Wylie we owned. I guess folks just aren't putting enough design/build effort into the CBs. No reason it can't be done right.

Hinckley have done a lot of centerboards and I think they do a great job with them. Mine's just a bit heavier than it's buoyant, controlled with a rope pennant. Has worked flawlessly for 7 years. Made the difference between motorsailing and sailing in Vineyard Sound yesterday.

[Mung Breath]

Got to throw my hat into the, 'get and love the right draft for the right water' argument. No wrong answers here. Obviously, for performance, I'll take it as deep as water and my destinations will permit. At 7'2" in Long Island Sound and New England, it's not an issue. There's absoultely nothing worse than trying to point over a distance in deep water with a shallow draft.

Ted Hood was the master of centerboards around these parts. To me, they make a LOT of sense, albeit imperfect compromises.

[kent_island_sailor]

It doesn't matter where YOU want to go - building a CRUISING boat in the USA that can't do the ICW or the Bahamas is a losing proposition.
We discovered the increased market value of a C&C 40 with shallower draft paid for cutting the deep keel off and putting a Mars Metal bulb on.

BTW - One place we like to anchor I *might* have maybe 4 inches clearance at low tide

[SailAR]

Horses for courses.. it's a two way street.

If you're anywhere from NYC on up, you just don't get too excited over it. Yes, there are a few places where it matters, but not enough to worry. We know at 7' we can't/shouldn't go to Duck Island, Coecles, Lake Tashmoo and maybe a few Cape Cod spots. No one I know doesn't buy a boat because it draws 7' instead of 5'. No one seems to suffer any more than one suffers when selling a boat because of a boat's draft around here.

There used to be this weird Goetz built tandem keel boat at Cove Haven up in Rhode Island. It was custom built for a Chessie guy who limited draft to 5 or 5.5'. I shudder to think of the beating he took when he went to sell that boat because only another Chessie sailor might be interested... everyone up north just looked at it as an ugly duckling.

[Bob Perry]

We built a lot of V 40's that drew 6'3". We did a centerboard version. As I recall they built two, maybe it was four.

[curm]

[/u]name='Mung Breath' timestamp='1347311395' post='3857035']
Ted Hood was the master of centerboards around these parts. To me, they make a LOT of sense, albeit imperfect compromises.

The master himself won his class in the around Jamestown race last week, in a Bristol 38.8 centerboarder no less --of course on corrected time in a 19,000 lb boat with a PHRF of around 125. Even so, there wasn't much wind, so they must have handled their spinnaker well.

http://www.jamestown...sland_Race.html


As for the new Island Packet, it looks like a Tartan 40 with a Hoyt boom, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. A centerboard is an option on a Tartan 3700; is should be an option of the Tartan 40 and the new Island Packet Bluejacket 40.

[Jon Eisberg]

Call it what you will, but with 7 foot draft you are ... running aground 8 times a day instead of 4 in the ICW, needing binoculars to see the beach you're anchored off of in the Bahamas...

That may be overstating it just a bit, even with 7 feet, if you're running aground that often on The Ditch, it's not the fault of your draft... (grin)

The boat below is Charlie Dana's 71' ST ROQUE, I'm pretty sure she draws just a bit over 7'... She's pictured anchored near me off Harbour Island on N Eleuthera, after having come in through The Devil's Backbone, which most folks will swear can't be done with anything over than 6...

Sure, lots of spots in the Bahamas will be off limits to such a draft, but there is still an awful lot of places you can still make it into...

[curm]

Sure you can get into places with a 7' draft-- even Cuttyhunk at low tide. But there's very little margin for error.

I confess to have a soft spot for the Southerlys and Dick Zaal's Atlantics with lifting keels.

[kent_island_sailor]

I *LOVE* Harbour Island! I think I have been there about 14 times
I don't worry about draft there - my SOG is usually about 120-180 knots on the way in The Devil's Backbone isn't that hard ------ in a whaler

As for 7 feet, you can get most places or close to them, but the boat *won't sell* as a cruiser unless you are talking a pretty big boat.

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[Beau.Vrolyk]

Jon,

ST ROQUE is beautiful. What is she?

BV

[kdh]

You're great with a camera, Jon.

[Jon Eisberg]

Jon,

ST ROQUE is beautiful. What is she?

BV

She's owned by Charlie Dana, of Newport Shipyard... Built in aluminum by New England Boatworks, and if memory serves, Ted Fontaine along with Hood had a hand in her design...

A VERY distinctive yacht, but I'm surprised there seems to be so little information about her online... Here's a bit from the NEB site:

http://www.neboatwor.../sail/roque.php

[Steam Flyer]

What we have here is a clear case of depth envy. ( in my best imitation of the warden from COOL HAND LUKE)

Draft is a personal decision and based on where you sail your boat. If it's deep where you sail go for the deep draft. If it's not deep where you sail go for shoal draft. That's not "propaganda".
I can't see where the argument is.

As long as you can convince yourself that you don't actually want to go all those interesting places, and get into more sheltered anchorages with better holding, then it doesn't matter to me what draft you pick for your boat.

Unless you are gaining something very much worth the sacrifice in that particular trade-off, like greater RM and a significantly better foil, then it's a dumb choice.

Oh well. People make dumb choices all the time, including me (on some things).

FWIW I have sailed a lot of places where "draft doesn't matter" like PNW and the western Med, and y'know I always found places that I would have liked to go but couldn't (matter of taste) and better-sheltered more-secure anchorages in shallower spots (objective fact).

Having had a long series of relatively shallow-draft boats, now I'm spoiled. I can go almost anywhere and don't have to be all that careful navigating. Shallow draft allows you to take a lot of short cuts and also to run aground in much more interesting places.

FB- Doug

[Road Runner]

Performance compared to what? Previous Island Packet designs? I would find it hard to compare this with real performance boats such as Farr, Melges, J/Boats, Kerr etc

[the_abandoned_brane]

Ill take the tartan. anyone need a kidney?

[jhiller]

Lot's of difference between the Jackett design and other IP's. For one it's an infused hull so it will be lighter and stronger and for another it was designed by Jackett who has done a lot of great sailing boats. I certainly don't have a dog in this fight but even with a hoyt boom I can imagine that this will be a good sailing and easy to handle boat for the right audience . Real question is whether it can compete with the French and german megabuilders like BeneJeneHanse

[Tom Ray]

Performance compared to what? Previous Island Packet designs? I would find it hard to compare this with real performance boats such as Farr, Melges, J/Boats, Kerr etc

Sailing Anarchy is up the hill a bit. This is Cruising Anarchy.

[slap]

Real question is whether it can compete with the French and german megabuilders like BeneJeneHanse

My guess is that they are competing against the Tartan/Sabre type builders.

[Jon Eisberg]

Real question is whether it can compete with the French and german megabuilders like BeneJeneHanse

My guess is that they are competing against the Tartan/Sabre type builders.

What I don't get, is Tim Jackett's role in this... Isn't he still one of the principals at Tartan?

The Blue Jacket, at least on the surface, appears to be quite similar to the new Tartan 4000... it's not like there's exactly an unlimited market at the moment for such a boat, why would he design such a similar boat for a competitor, potentially cutting Tartan's market share in half?

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Jon, my experience with IP owners is that there is a LOT of brand loyalty. The IP owners I know would never buy a Tartan 4000, but they'd buy this boat because it's from IP. This is directly analogous to Porsche 911 owners buying a Cayenne when they would NEVER consider buying a VW Touraeg. Despite them being almost identical cars. (Opps, "Sports Activity Vehicles.)

BV

[kdh]

Jon, my experience with IP owners is that there is a LOT of brand loyalty. The IP owners I know would never buy a Tartan 4000, but they'd buy this boat because it's from IP. This is directly analogous to Porsche 911 owners buying a Cayenne when they would NEVER consider buying a VW Touraeg. Despite them being almost identical cars. (Opps, "Sports Activity Vehicles.)

BV

This is a good point but for the record I will never buy a Cayenne or the VW. Mrs K wants a Golf TDI. Wish she would consider an Audi A3 TDI.

[kimbottles]

Jon, my experience with IP owners is that there is a LOT of brand loyalty. The IP owners I know would never buy a Tartan 4000, but they'd buy this boat because it's from IP. This is directly analogous to Porsche 911 owners buying a Cayenne when they would NEVER consider buying a VW Touraeg. Despite them being almost identical cars. (Opps, "Sports Activity Vehicles.)

BV

This is a good point but for the record I will never buy a Cayenne or the VW. Mrs K wants a Golf TDI. Wish she would consider an Audi A3 TDI.

I thought they were the same company and those two cars were on the same platform???

[Soñadora]

Jon, my experience with IP owners is that there is a LOT of brand loyalty. The IP owners I know would never buy a Tartan 4000, but they'd buy this boat because it's from IP. This is directly analogous to Porsche 911 owners buying a Cayenne when they would NEVER consider buying a VW Touraeg. Despite them being almost identical cars. (Opps, "Sports Activity Vehicles.)

BV

This is a good point but for the record I will never buy a Cayenne or the VW. Mrs K wants a Golf TDI. Wish she would consider an Audi A3 TDI.

I thought they were the same company and those two cars were on the same platform???

shhhh....what's a matter for you? Be quiet or people will HEAR you!

[Roleur]

They are the same car. Can u get an A3 TDI in the US? We try rent them when we can in Europe. That car is the shit. If I owned a car that would certainly be near the top.

[Roleur]

Steamer,

Of course you do get increased rm, or a lighter boat which equals better performance. That's the whole point of deeper draft. If more draft didn't offer a benefit we'd all be sailing canoes.

[jhiller]

Tim Jackett is no longer with Tartan. He is now an independant designer. Tim was my Project Manager in the build of my new Tartan 4700 James Gang.

[MidPack]

Another nice cruiser (good luck), but "performance" is a real stretch...

For an IP, I would say NOT a stretch

Since when is performance measured from the range of one builder? Performance is relative to the universe of (in the case) production sail boats. Neither IP nor their new "Blue Jacket" line qualify by any reasonable definition. Just as no Buick is a sports car (yet), no IP is a performance boat (yet).

If you like the new IP line, fine and dandy...

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Jon, my experience with IP owners is that there is a LOT of brand loyalty. The IP owners I know would never buy a Tartan 4000, but they'd buy this boat because it's from IP. This is directly analogous to Porsche 911 owners buying a Cayenne when they would NEVER consider buying a VW Touraeg. Despite them being almost identical cars. (Opps, "Sports Activity Vehicles.)

BV

This is a good point but for the record I will never buy a Cayenne or the VW. Mrs K wants a Golf TDI. Wish she would consider an Audi A3 TDI.

I thought they were the same company and those two cars were on the same platform???

shhhh....what's a matter for you? Be quiet or people will HEAR you!

kdh,

I'd buy an A3 TDI too if I didn't have to haul a 3000# boat and trailer and move mounts of stuff for S'agapo when I shift from "race mode" to "cruise mode" and vice versa.

As it is the Cayenne takes four trips to do the shift for S'agapo:
Trip 1: All "nice" cushions off the boat and into the storage locker, race cushions from locker to boat
Trip 2: All headsails and cruising chute off the boat and into the locker, all race headsails and one of the three chutes from locker to boat
Trip 3: Cruising mainsail off of boat and into locker, two chutes and race mainsail from locker to boat
Trip 4: All pans, pots, plates, glasses, wine glasses, cooking supplies off of boat and into locker, six plastic bowls and Sporks from locker to boat

If I had a smaller car, it could take 7 or 8 trips.

We have a Cayenne rather than the VW because the Admiral like the fit/finish of the Porsche better. (They are pretty much the same, but not quite.)

BV

[Jose Carumba]

Wait! Wasn't this thread about Island Piglets?
 aaa3.jpg   34.89K   5 downloads

Or was it deep draft...
 aaa1.jpg   12.77K   2 downloads

...versus shallow draft?
 aaa2.jpg   53.74K   0 downloads

I'm confused.

[curm]

So, why is Tim Jackett no longer with Tartan? The plot thickens.......

[reis123]

http://www.cruisingw...w-island-packet

"For with the introduction of the company’s new Blue Jacket 40, the first in a new series of performance cruising sailboats, IP is certainly expanding its scope beyond its familiar fleet of blue-water voyagers.

And to underscore their commitment to the “performance” aspect of the concept, in yet another first, Johnson is collaborating on the project with another renowned naval architect, Tim Jackett, whose name for many years has been synonymous with Tartan and C&C."

In an interview Bob said it was clear that the boat's design was Tim's with input from Bob.

But will it be beige?

Cape Dory rebound... IP Yachts take over where CD left off, now, one might hope, they do not repeat CD's success.

[Steam Flyer]

Steamer,

Of course you do get increased rm, or a lighter boat which equals better performance. That's the whole point of deeper draft. If more draft didn't offer a benefit we'd all be sailing canoes.

Well... you -should- get better RM or lighter disp for the same RM; but hey I realized a long time ago 1- not all boat designers are created equal and 2- not all boat builders carry out the design perfectly. It's very possible to have a deeper-draft boat that does not have any real gain over a similiar size/configuration with shallower draft.

Then you have stuff like wing keels which have "shallower draft" without the benefit of shallower draft (or at least, not as much of the benefit).

FB- Doug

[Elegua]

[/u]name='Mung Breath' timestamp='1347311395' post='3857035']
Ted Hood was the master of centerboards around these parts. To me, they make a LOT of sense, albeit imperfect compromises.

The master himself won his class in the around Jamestown race last week, in a Bristol 38.8 centerboarder no less --of course on corrected time in a 19,000 lb boat with a PHRF of around 125. Even so, there wasn't much wind, so they must have handled their spinnaker well.

http://www.jamestown...sland_Race.html

I was told quite bluntly by, "the master", that there was, "nothing wrong", with the 38.8/ Wauquiez design, and that with decent sails and a clean bottom; if I was anything lower than the top half of the fleet, it was my problem.

The boat will go upwind just fine with the board up, just don't push too hard.

[Amati]

because nothing screams performance like a hoyt jib boom

Birig?

Where's spellcheck when you need it?

[stickboy]

Didn't Tartan face a class action lawsuit about their plastic boats falling apart at sea? Or, am I mistaken...

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUCHE

Your words have no value here.

[Kent H]

I saw the Tartan 40 and wow did it look good. A lot better than the drawing. A couple of thoughts. Is this just a cheap way to buy Tartan Yachts by having improved versions of their boats built by IPY. The other thought was does this fall under the same situation where Hinckley successfully sued several builders of boats similar to the picnic boat for copying their boat?

In general I like what I see but I would have modeled the look of the boat on the original Tartan 40, with a complete update on everything. People absolutely love that boat and the resale is high and quick. They are not going to sell many 7.5 foot draft models on the atlantic coast that is for damn sure.

http://sv-apparition...on.html#welcome

http://www.yachtworl...96496&noOfPic=2

[kent_island_sailor]

_{One of the builders sued was here in Naptown. IIRC they were suing over the term "picnic boat", which I think is bullshit because the term predates Hinckley by decades, and "trade dress" - basically a few distinctive featues like the curve of the aft end of the pilothouse.}

[jhiller]

Tim Jackett has a very good relationship with Tartan. He still designs their boats. He just didn't want to run a boat company any longer. He is the designer of the new line of Blue Jacket Boats not the owner of the company. Tim told me he's even doing a couple of custom race boats . Sounds like a lot more fun to me to sit around drawing boats than cracking the whip over the guys building them. Tartan is still heavily invested in fancy high end woodwork and top quality stuff. I think the Blue Jacket will be more like IP. I'm glad that a new line of boats is starting in the USA.

[kdh]

Jon, my experience with IP owners is that there is a LOT of brand loyalty. The IP owners I know would never buy a Tartan 4000, but they'd buy this boat because it's from IP. This is directly analogous to Porsche 911 owners buying a Cayenne when they would NEVER consider buying a VW Touraeg. Despite them being almost identical cars. (Opps, "Sports Activity Vehicles.)

BV

This is a good point but for the record I will never buy a Cayenne or the VW. Mrs K wants a Golf TDI. Wish she would consider an Audi A3 TDI.

I thought they were the same company and those two cars were on the same platform???

shhhh....what's a matter for you? Be quiet or people will HEAR you!

kdh,

I'd buy an A3 TDI too if I didn't have to haul a 3000# boat and trailer and move mounts of stuff for S'agapo when I shift from "race mode" to "cruise mode" and vice versa.

As it is the Cayenne takes four trips to do the shift for S'agapo:
Trip 1: All "nice" cushions off the boat and into the storage locker, race cushions from locker to boat
Trip 2: All headsails and cruising chute off the boat and into the locker, all race headsails and one of the three chutes from locker to boat
Trip 3: Cruising mainsail off of boat and into locker, two chutes and race mainsail from locker to boat
Trip 4: All pans, pots, plates, glasses, wine glasses, cooking supplies off of boat and into locker, six plastic bowls and Sporks from locker to boat

If I had a smaller car, it could take 7 or 8 trips.

We have a Cayenne rather than the VW because the Admiral like the fit/finish of the Porsche better. (They are pretty much the same, but not quite.)

BV

I like the A3 because we can get leather seats and our yellow lab's shedding dog hair gets stuck in cloth seats and the car starts to smell like dog. Also, the Audi service is better. For six or seven boat dollars the premium is worth it to me.

[jhiller]

Best car I ever owned was an Audi A8...... My wife drives a 9 year old Cayenne. It's too damn good to get rid of

[Gatekeeper]

The more I look at the Blue Jacket the more I like it...but I've always been a Tartan fan.

[Kent H]

Maybe an optional extended bow sprit and for a code zero on a furler.

One idea Hoyt had was to up the HP on his 38 and I saw the Crosscurrent daysailor did the same thing. Get 10 knots under power.

A nice option list and this could be interesting come boat show time.

One thing IP does very well is these little add ons. I was at the Annapolis show when IP introduced the extender inside the boom that allows you to launch a dinghy or hoist up something from the dock to the deck. Now this was not the newest idea but I tell you the line was very long and they were showing that extender for the entire show.

I got to go with the low shoal draft crowd. I am not crazy about the boats but the swing keel on the Southerly is something to look into. Thanks for posting the Open designs with the swing keel. I think that is the future for monohulls.

http://www.northshore.co.uk/

The Cape Dory comment: IPY is more of a lineage of Irwin Yachts as the owner was employed there and if you look at the early boats there is some similarity.

[Soñadora]

ok, this view looks much better than the one at the top (whoever rendered that had the specular intensity turned up too high and it washed out the blue). Other than that, looks like someone at IP learned how to render. Previously, they used a high end rendering house in Fla.

[curm]

[/u]name='Mung Breath' timestamp='1347311395' post='3857035']
Ted Hood was the master of centerboards around these parts. To me, they make a LOT of sense, albeit imperfect compromises.

The master himself won his class in the around Jamestown race last week, in a Bristol 38.8 centerboarder no less --of course on corrected time in a 19,000 lb boat with a PHRF of around 125. Even so, there wasn't much wind, so they must have handled their spinnaker well.

http://www.jamestown...sland_Race.html

I was told quite bluntly by, "the master", that there was, "nothing wrong", with the 38.8/ Wauquiez design, and that with decent sails and a clean bottom; if I was anything lower than the top half of the fleet, it was my problem.

The boat will go upwind just fine with the board up, just don't push too hard.

Yes, I'm often suprised at how high the 38.8 points with the board down, although you lose speed if you pinch too much (as in any boat).

[Amati]

Some years ago, didnt 'someone call Wauquiez a pussy boat? At a certain boat show?

I'm just reporting here. My brother had a Wauquiez. I liked it. So did he.

The Blue Jacket looks like the Tartan 38 should have looked.

And I'm an ex Finn sailer, so I think Hoyt is a genius. It's in the classe's contract fine print...

Flame away.

Edit- except for salt water parasites that adhere to boats, I dig CB's.

Edited by Amati, 13 September 2012 - 12:19 AM.

[Zonker]

Wow that rendering makes the bow look rather full. Maybe it's just the angle but that's a big hit of IP hull shape there.

[jhiller]

I am intrigued by the self-tacking Hoyt Boom. My new Tartan which was also designed by Tim Jackett has a self-tacking Jib wthout a boom. The rig is big and there's lots of SA so for upwind sailing and even downwind in a breeze, the self-tacker makes life easy and because there is so much sail we still go fast, e.g. 10+ kts last weekend in 15-20 kts of breeze. When I asked Tim about the Hoyt Boom he said it would make the jib much more useful downwind and keep it shaped better at all points.
Maybe I need to get me one !

[jackdaw]

I am intrigued by the self-tacking Hoyt Boom. My new Tartan which was also designed by Tim Jackett has a self-tacking Jib wthout a boom. The rig is big and there's lots of SA so for upwind sailing and even downwind in a breeze, the self-tacker makes life easy and because there is so much sail we still go fast, e.g. 10+ kts last weekend in 15-20 kts of breeze. When I asked Tim about the Hoyt Boom he said it would make the jib much more useful downwind and keep it shaped better at all points.
Maybe I need to get me one !

I'm a fan. I had a chance to talk with Tom Schock at the introduction of the Harbor 30 and the he just smiled wen I asked him about the the Hoyt boom.. He thought the H30 would tear up the Diego JAM fleet, and it sounds like it has. As you note easy to maintain good sailshape off the wind. It also was 2nd in class with spinnakers in the Newport race, beating several J105s boat on boat. I can image owning a HP boat with a self tacker in a few years. Hoyt boom? Hell yea.

[MidPack]

Wow that rendering makes the bow look rather full. Maybe it's just the angle but that's a big hit of IP hull shape there.

That's what I thought too. Looks like they painted an IP blue, and voila, a new line of boats...

[jhiller]

No IP has an infused vinylester hull with appendages like this. It might be a cousin to IP but not a first cousin. I've sailed lots of IP's and they are dogs . This will be a good sailing boat

[curm]

Tim Jackett is no longer with Tartan. He is now an independant designer. Tim was my Project Manager in the build of my new Tartan 4700 James Gang.

I'm not suprised. Tartan changed hands in 2010, did it not? I'm guessing Jackett got a severance package plus a 2-year consulting agreement to finish the Tartan designs he had been working on. This new Island Packet tells me that his noncompete has expired-- and that he was able to retain sufficient IP rights in his Tartan work to design something for Island Packet that looks very much like a Tartan 40.

[v92]

Call it what you will, but with 7 foot draft you are ... running aground 8 times a day instead of 4 in the ICW, needing binoculars to see the beach you're anchored off of in the Bahamas...

That may be overstating it just a bit, even with 7 feet, if you're running aground that often on The Ditch, it's not the fault of your draft... (grin)

The boat below is Charlie Dana's 71' ST ROQUE, I'm pretty sure she draws just a bit over 7'... She's pictured anchored near me off Harbour Island on N Eleuthera, after having come in through The Devil's Backbone, which most folks will swear can't be done with anything over than 6...

Sure, lots of spots in the Bahamas will be off limits to such a draft, but there is still an awful lot of places you can still make it into...

My favorite place in the Bahamas. Dunmore town " Home of the friendly people " .

[deluxe68]

Any idea what the boat will cost?

[sunol]

I'll take the Tartan, but what's the deal with the dual wheels on the IP or Tartan? I understand for a true racer, but doesn't seem worth it for the added complexity, taking up more overall space, for a boat that won't be raced in more than beer cans. The idea, I guess, is that it frees up the middle, but that will soon be taken by any cruiser with a nice center table/nav station (Tartan looks like it comes with one). Given that the primary use will be cruising, give me one wheel.

[Kent H]

base on the IP 41 is about $480k Unless they do some sort of special intro offer I suspect this boat with sails, electronics and normal options etc to be $550k

The Island Packet site has price lists for all of its boats so go ahead and make a prediction based on the current boats.

[Tom Ray]

I'll take the Tartan, but what's the deal with the dual wheels on the IP or Tartan? I understand for a true racer, but doesn't seem worth it for the added complexity, taking up more overall space, for a boat that won't be raced in more than beer cans. The idea, I guess, is that it frees up the middle, but that will soon be taken by any cruiser with a nice center table/nav station (Tartan looks like it comes with one). Given that the primary use will be cruising, give me one wheel.

The Department of Redundancy Department likes them if the systems are independent all the way to the rudder post. Steering failure? Switch sides and continue!

The middle of a cruiser (= Bimini top deployed at all times) can be pretty far and/or obstructed from things you might like to see, like sails and other boat traffic.

Cruisers have gotten so fat in the ass that my long arms will not reach a wheel in the middle if I'm sitting on one side. The sides are always more comfortable than the middle.

[deluxe68]

base on the IP 41 is about $480k Unless they do some sort of special intro offer I suspect this boat with sails, electronics and normal options etc to be $550k

The Island Packet site has price lists for all of its boats so go ahead and make a prediction based on the current boats.

The current 41' model is the SP cruiser. Their 360 model is $349K and I could not get a straight answer from the dealer why it is nearly $100K cheaper than the 370 ($422K). My guess is that the Estero hull is used on both smaller boats and is a lighter layup. I would hope their new boat would start just under $400K. If they price it by the pound, maybe around $350K.

[dolphinmaster]

Jon, my experience with IP owners is that there is a LOT of brand loyalty. The IP owners I know would never buy a Tartan 4000, but they'd buy this boat because it's from IP. This is directly analogous to Porsche 911 owners buying a Cayenne when they would NEVER consider buying a VW Touraeg. Despite them being almost identical cars. (Opps, "Sports Activity Vehicles.)

BV

This is a good point but for the record I will never buy a Cayenne or the VW. Mrs K wants a Golf TDI. Wish she would consider an Audi A3 TDI.

I thought they were the same company and those two cars were on the same platform???

shhhh....what's a matter for you? Be quiet or people will HEAR you!

kdh,

I'd buy an A3 TDI too if I didn't have to haul a 3000# boat and trailer and move mounts of stuff for S'agapo when I shift from "race mode" to "cruise mode" and vice versa.

As it is the Cayenne takes four trips to do the shift for S'agapo:
Trip 1: All "nice" cushions off the boat and into the storage locker, race cushions from locker to boat
Trip 2: All headsails and cruising chute off the boat and into the locker, all race headsails and one of the three chutes from locker to boat
Trip 3: Cruising mainsail off of boat and into locker, two chutes and race mainsail from locker to boat
Trip 4: All pans, pots, plates, glasses, wine glasses, cooking supplies off of boat and into locker, six plastic bowls and Sporks from locker to boat

If I had a smaller car, it could take 7 or 8 trips.

We have a Cayenne rather than the VW because the Admiral like the fit/finish of the Porsche better. (They are pretty much the same, but not quite.)

BV

BV, have you heard any reports on the VW 6 cyl TDI in the Toureg?

[rattus32]

BV, have you heard any reports on the VW 6 cyl TDI in the Toureg?

Drove an Audi A7 TDI - once again, same car - it had some nice grunt.

NYT had a good review (not my usual source of automotive info, but...):

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/automobiles/autoreviews/a-diesel-rhino-reborn-for-suburbia.html