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New Class Dev

skiff single handed

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#1 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:39 AM

Hi Guys

There is a project being worked in New Zealand to bring a new all carbon 4.0 meter single handed dinghy to the market. This boat will have a single square top main, two piece carbon mast, no trapeze and wide D-One style wings. The rig will be powerful and handle crew heights of 70kg to 120kg.

The design brief is, in order of importance, speed, simplicity, easy to rig, easy to transport and easy to store. The best and brightest in New Zealand are working on this project lead by NZ's best designer, spar maker, sail loft and carbon boatbuilder. We are about to build a prototype.

A website is being produced and formal annoucement will happen in about 4 - 6 weeks.

#2 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 01:20 PM

Will it use foils?

#3 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 01:31 PM

not with a design brief to cater for a 120kg payload....

Doug- buy a Moth & go foil if you want to so bad. Second hand they're not even expensive any more.

#4 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:21 PM

not with a design brief to cater for a 120kg payload....

Doug- buy a Moth & go foil if you want to so bad. Second hand they're not even expensive any more.

===================
120kg payload is no obstacle to foiling. I'm curious whether a new modern design at this time in history will use foils as "foil assist"(National 12, I-14) or for full flying or not at all. Just curious.

#5 BalticBandit

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:32 PM

go buy a moth Doug.. Shoo

Fraser.

Clearly the power limit of the rig is the righting moment... right now the D1/RS100 is indistinguishable from a Laser upwind in terms of how much work it is to be fast, and off the wind, without the trap, they don't quite light up like a trap boat except in lighter winds. So are the wings going to be extendable further out than on the predecessor designs - so that you can get the hiking leverage without hiking over the side and torquing out your knees?

#6 USA190520

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:01 PM

As someone who regularly sails a SH hiking assy equipped dinghy, lemme tell ya... It's all fun and games till its over 12... Then you hike upwind, hard, and guess what... Ya hike hard DW too

Traps... They're not just for the circus...


I did a 20 mile sail Monday... Roughly 10 upwind and 10 dw.... It's Thursday and I still feel it in my lower back...

Best of luck with the new boat...

#7 BalticBandit

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:26 PM

Yeah,that's kinda why I'm suggesting seriously extensible wings - along the lines of the hiking planks of the Canoues - but not as "scary" looking. Sure the top guys will hike the hell out of that even.. But others will still be able to enjoy the fun - kinda like in the Moths -- Top guys are hard core hiking them all the time.. but folks in the middle aren't quite as aggressive - at least from the photos and videos.

#8 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:28 PM

I don't think the OP is suggesting a kite???? A new carbon unarig... Laser 2012esque

#9 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:31 PM


not with a design brief to cater for a 120kg payload....

Doug- buy a Moth & go foil if you want to so bad. Second hand they're not even expensive any more.

===================
120kg payload is no obstacle to foiling. I'm curious whether a new modern design at this time in history will use foils as "foil assist"(National 12, I-14) or for full flying or not at all. Just curious.


Probably not at all if they have any commercial sense!

#10 couchsurfer

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:34 PM

.. sounds like a classic case of 'fear-of- trapezeing' :blink:

...and just how many 265# sailors are in your marketplace???

...I hope you have better luck than the VoodooSkiff with early exposure to SA :mellow:

#11 JimC

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:03 PM

4m is kinda short. I built a 4.27m waterline singlehander, and with what I know now I'd go longer and narrower if I were doing it again.

#12 bye bye

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:27 PM

Out of deference to those using ignore please do not quote, or preferably reply to the Lord.

#13 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:39 PM

Hi

I am 58 years old and want a boat that delivers the most amount of fun. I weight 88kg and am quite fit. To achieve the maximum fun I need a fast boat and fits my time poor lifestyle (I am a computer programmer). It must be easy to sail and comfortable on my knees. I want a high quality build as cost of such small boat is not the main driver.

I understand that by bring together the very best design team and with careful thoughtful design we can use modern design knowledge, materials and computing power to produce an exceptional boat.

BTW: no foils, no kite, no trapeze, as these add to complication and cost and I will be happy with 20+ knot performance I dont need to do 30 knots to have fun.

#14 Scarecrow

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:47 PM

I'm waiting with baited breath to discover who NZ's best designer is, especially for a small boat like this.

#15 taobsu

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:48 PM

Hi Guys

There is a project being worked in New Zealand to bring a new all carbon 4.0 meter single handed dinghy to the market. This boat will have a single square top main, two piece carbon mast, no trapeze and wide D-One style wings. The rig will be powerful and handle crew heights of 70kg to 120kg.

The design brief is, in order of importance, speed, simplicity, easy to rig, easy to transport and easy to store. The best and brightest in New Zealand are working on this project lead by NZ's best designer, spar maker, sail loft and carbon boatbuilder. We are about to build a prototype.

A website is being produced and formal annoucement will happen in about 4 - 6 weeks.



thought we are in a recession, is that true?

So based on what you described. We have a boat.which cost $15,000 ~ $20,000 ?
Another D-one but smaller ? If D-one/RS100 has problem to sale what magic you have?

IMHO, any new single-hander with a price tag north of $6,000 will not have a broad market. nowadays.

#16 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:48 PM

Hi

I am 58 years old and want a boat that delivers the most amount of fun. I weight 88kg and am quite fit. To achieve the maximum fun I need a fast boat and fits my time poor lifestyle (I am a computer programmer). It must be easy to sail and comfortable on my knees. I want a high quality build as cost of such small boat is not the main driver.

I understand that by bring together the very best design team and with careful thoughtful design we can use modern design knowledge, materials and computing power to produce an exceptional boat.

BTW: no foils, no kite, no trapeze, as these add to complication and cost and I will be happy with 20+ knot performance I dont need to do 30 knots to have fun.

------------------------
20 knot performance with no trapeze, no kite, no foils???

#17 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:07 PM

Hi

This is a strict one design; each part will be numbered and logged against each boat. The boats will be sold by a ‘not for profit’ organisation at cost.

Cost is always an issue, so we have kept this boat high-tech but simple. We expect this boat to be only slightly more expensive than a Laser; given it is carbon, foam and epoxy construction.

About the size, in the design process we have always though about ‘the minimum needed to achieve the stated goals’ and we felt that 4.0m, (13.11 feet) is sufficient space for one person.

We also want to attract women to the class so keeping the boat smaller and more manageable is desirable.

#18 CapSizer

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:09 PM

Fraser, I like the way you're thinking (ie. keep it simple, even if it involves sacrificing some speed). However, I'm curious to know how you plan to accommodate such a wide range of weights? There's some fundamental physics and a lot of practical experience working against you.

#19 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:34 PM

Hi

The rig will be large and easy to depower plus the wings will be very wide (and detachable for transport and storage).

We have taken the stance that is easier to depower a large square top main on a stay less carbon mast than it is to stack in and out. So the sail area will be on the large side.

The wings are wide so the 120kg person will probably not stack out at all while the lighter sailor will be given the leverage to hold the power on in a breeze.

While we want a manageable boat, it must generate the power and this will come from a large rig.

#20 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:50 PM

Hi

The rig will be large and easy to depower plus the wings will be very wide (and detachable for transport and storage).

We have taken the stance that is easier to depower a large square top main on a stay less carbon mast than it is to stack in and out. So the sail area will be on the large side.

The wings are wide so the 120kg person will probably not stack out at all while the lighter sailor will be give the leverage to hold the power on in a breeze.

While we want a manageable boat, it must generate the power and this will come from a large rig.

===================
Will you use some sort of weight equalization system? Seems like if the light guy can hold it down in a breeze he/she would have an advantage over the heavy guy in every condition?

#21 brett221

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:57 PM

Probably time to stop talking about it and build the boat as the more you describe it the more unlikely it sounds that you are going to achieve your goals!
From your description, sounds like a 3.7 with wings and a bigger rig. Being 120kg myself, there aint no 12ft boat that is simply going to get up and go, no matter how light the boat is and how big the sail area. A 12ft skiff is still a relatively slow boat until the kite fills, and you aint thinking of a kite so good luck!


#22 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:21 PM

We are trying our best to not design for one body shape and size. I weight 88kg and am 6.00 foot so I am in the middle of the range. Time will tell if we achieve this goal.

Speed is a relative thing; this boat will be fast just through great design and the use of the latest knowledge and materials.

You are of course right, it will not be as fast as a Moth, 49er, 12 foot skiff, but will be faster than most of the older classes of a similar type (non trapeze single handed).

#23 Amati

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:45 AM

It kind of sounds that it could be like your Great Barrier derived multi rule?

That could be fun.


edit- something like this? close to being wide enough, maybe. a bit too long though.....

http://www.bluelight...n/Hadron01.shtm

Edited by Amati, 14 September 2012 - 01:51 AM.


#24 dogwatch

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 03:34 AM

Hi

I am 58 years old and want a boat that delivers the most amount of fun. I weight 88kg and am quite fit. To achieve the maximum fun I need a fast boat and fits my time poor lifestyle (I am a computer programmer). It must be easy to sail and comfortable on my knees. .......BTW: no foils, no kite, no trapeze, as these add to complication and cost and I will be happy with 20+ knot performance I dont need to do 30 knots to have fun.


I see......so you want 20+ knots performance from a hiking single-hander that's also easy to sail and comfortable on the knees. Good luck with that,

#25 dogwatch

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 03:45 AM

If D-one/RS100 has problem to sale what magic you have?


D-One has been squeezed out by the RS100 around here. RS100 selling? Well the problems seems to be that a lot of people bought the sizzle but found the reality is a boat that is very physical indeed to sail well. Result, lots of nearly-new boats for sale.

IMHO, any new single-hander with a price tag north of $6,000 will not have a broad market. nowadays.


NZ$? US$? Either way, the GBR Solos continue to sell at a price way higher than that. Whether any racing dinghy today has a "broad market" is debatable.

#26 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:35 AM

Hi

Thank you all for your feedback it will be listened to as we progress. Once we have a boat in the water we will see if we have the balance correct.

There will be further annoucements in the coming weeks and a webiste is being produced. I hope that this boat will bring a lot of fun to those who sail it and as we enter a time of an aging population many will return to sailing for the fun of it.

I am happy to answer questions, so please post them.

Remember - you heard this first on Sailing Anarachy

Ed - if you want to email me I will give you a lot more information.

#27 FishAintBiting

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:58 AM

So let me get this right:

- caters for a crew weight of 70kg to 120kg

- appealing for women

- easy to handle

- large rig

- fun to sail

- not for profit

- wings

- no trapese


Sounds like this is the panacea for life, or you have your head up your arse.

Fun for a 120kg person will most likely not equate to fun for a 70kg person.


Trying to be everything for everybody generally equates to doing nothing well.


Perhaps understanding where the holes in the market are, through a market survey, might be a better way to invest your efforts so that a successful product is produced.

Good luck and happy sailing.

Fish

#28 couchsurfer

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:40 AM

...it'd be great if yer prove us doubters wrong,
,,, but methinks you'll have better luck to make a plan for world peace
...nttawwt <_<

#29 JeffD

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 06:49 AM

We have a couple of best designers here frazer, are you going to let the cat out of the bag?... a couple of best sail makers, one or two best carbon spar makers??
It sounds like a great idea, but the sceptics above didnt make all this up just for you. Theres some valid points here if you are going to be investing some coin in this. its a bit hard to see how the price can be comparable with a laser if you are building it all out of carbon and high tech materials, and the laser is mass produced out of ..... er reconstituted cat crap basically :wacko:
Like anywhere else the fleets here in nz are dropping by the year and i dont think its for want of another class, theres just less money, less time and other things to do.

#30 Scarecrow

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 07:20 AM

I'm going to take a stab.

Design: Dan Leech. Not sure he is NZ's best designer but he definately has the runs on the board with boats this size.
Build: If it is Dan's design then first guest would be Davie Norris, but its a very small project for him.
Spars: C-Tech, most the others wouldn't answer the phone for a project like this.
Sails: ken fyfe

#31 sosoomii

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 08:17 AM

Think you are right about the mast and sail maker, dunno about the designer and builder. Sounds a bit like a carbon Blaze.
Don't let the cynics put you off, but I would say that a carbon hull and wings won't come cheap so the performance had better make up for the $$$.

#32 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 08:38 AM

Fraser, just a word of caution.... I'm a 100kg and my last boat was an experimental 12ft UK cherub, converted for singlehanding. It had an extremely wide beam, courtesy of large racks (these actually took it out of class from a UK Cherub perspective) The original owner even specced multi use singlehanding into the design brief, so theoretically the volume distribution should have been suitable.

However when you start adding big powerful sails, and wide beams and incredibly light carbon/foam builds (the all up weight was estimated to be less than 35kg) you have a horrendous boat for single handing. To the point where I could barely launch it- even on a benign cross shore beach with a couple of trolley dollies leanding a hand. Capsize recovery was extremely risky and to be honest, I had to close the whole thing down as it was utterly unseaworthy and dangerous.

Assuming light is always good, especially if you want an easy to use boat, well... I think you're heading rapidly in the wrong direction, but I applaud you for having the guts to try it and as there's no profit intentions, then why the hell not... it your money to burn.

@Dogwatch- spot on with regards the 100, very physical, especially if you've got some old injuries, and yep, just ordered a Solo for way more than $6NZ/US

#33 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:11 AM

one thing you doubters

don't compare nz/downunder 'clean-sheet' possibilities with any NthHem 'built for production' examples, which are heavy and low-tech for profit.
that would be as shortsighted as say the three bethwaite olympic boats being replaced by say a laser 5000 or something

personally I think 14' would be a minimum if leaning toward plus 100kg operators, short boats slow up markedly
in that zone, whereas a 16' foot Contender ? not much (if) at all

also the sail 'one size fits all' across the range from 70-->120kg is hard to grasp.

If you load it up with enough sail area for a 110kg bloke ( that is fucking large) , then I believe a 70kg man or gal will likely need the option of running a smaller sail, bit like the F18 cats do
Practical sail area can be self limiting and need not be regulated, just that you can only measure one size in.

#34 BalticBandit

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:58 AM

No kite - which basically means kinda boring downwind
No trap - which means you WILL BE STACKING OUT..because unless the boat is underpowered, you can almost always pour on some more power.

And I have yet to see a dinghy that does not favour a particular body type. Non-trapeze boats favor leaner taller body shapes, whcih means, stacking out.

#35 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:19 AM

No kite - which basically means kinda boring downwind


yep, I used to think that, until watching the Olympics and seeing the tactics at play... now I think kind of boring if you sit there and don't put much thought into it. Besides with a hiking boat, it's nice to give the legs a rest, even if the upperbody goes into hyperdrive (kinetics rules allowing).

Fundamentally though, looking to get 20 knots out of a conventional unarig hiker is going to be a big ask on any design team. You're pushing boundaries that boats like the RS300 can only just touch (allegedly, I'm skeptical they've truly broke 20 knots sustained). Low riders have been up there, an IC maxs out at about 18ish..... if these boats struggle to break 20 knots, I simply can't see an exotic laser getting anywhere near.

I've had a 16 knot spike out of an RS Vareo with the kite up, it was faster than the Blaze I was holding. Further evaluation saw that track to be around 14.5 average. I've had 18.5 knots out of my MPS, although it will go higher into the early 20's with the right driver (I was shitting it by that point) and I suspect I never smashed 20 knots in the 100, despite some ballistic wind on flat water in Poole Harbour.

20 knots- only done it on sailboards, and it's fucking quick.... much faster than my pea-brain computes dinghies sail at.

#36 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:27 AM

Thank you all for the Feedback !!!

There has been a lot of discussion around the weight range. It is a design goal to appeal to a wide range of crew weight, and of course it remains to be seen if we get it right.

This boat is wide and it has wide wings with the stacking straps and controls on the wings. A light weight crew will be able to stack out a very long way (almost a trapeze distance) while a heavier crew will simple sit on the wings.

There is extensive computer modeling being done on the sail design and at the last design meeting we were trending to a short un-stayed rig with a very large square top . Size is yet to be decided finally but if we err it will be on the large side.

We have the advantage of a clean sheet to start with, so this project is being developed with the best and most knowledgeable members in each part of the project. With the computer modeling of hulls, masts and sails today we have the best chance of getting right if we are careful and take our time.

As always during this process there are tradeoffs and compromises but we have a clear vision of what we are creating – a fast, simple, easy to rig, easy to transport, easy to store boat that maximizes fun!

#37 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:45 AM

As always during this process there are tradeoffs and compromises but we have a clear vision of what we are creating – a fast, simple, easy to rig, easy to transport, easy to store boat that maximizes fun!


a set of generic design goals that could apply to nearly every modern dinghy then? :wacko:

#38 brett221

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:57 AM

Biggest issue that I see is with the rig, if you are comparing it to a Laser for cost, even if you have a mast supplier and sailmaker doing it for the love it still aint going to be cheap. A carbon stick designed to support what, a minimum of 10sqm of sail and I am guessing closer to 12sqm is not going to be lighter than 8kg if it is to be unstayed and have any chance of getting an 80kg guy some resemblance of power in 10+ knots.

#39 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:55 AM

Doing it for the love? After at least 20 cuts and re-cuts to get out of prototype, alpha and beta testing they may not love it so much if there's no ROI!

#40 Phil S

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:16 PM

Interesting project. best of luck.
Not sure how you will go. Numbers do not seem to add up.
wrt to a moth, you have a hull with maybe 4 times the material, bigger wings and bigger rig. At full retail prices you save $a3000 for no horizontal foils and mabe 1 k for the linkage, without which a moth would cost 21k. But if the hull,costs 4 times a much and the wings and rig cost 50 % extra you look like having a sale price well over $a30. How many fat guys are going to spend that amount? Certainly not many in depressed economy countries

Frazer, you are suitable age and weigh for a moth, just give it a go, you will never regret it. You will also save a lot of money and hassle.

#41 knobblyoldjimbo

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 08:59 AM

go get a Paper Tiger cat, whatever you build you'll not get something as quick or as fun for much less $$

#42 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:46 AM

Hi

I would be very interested on feedback about the D-One. Has anyone sailed one or knows of lessons that could be learned from the D-One.

Btw: The development process is fun; it is interesting watching absolute masters at work as they weigh up the endless options and tradeoffs that make a boat come to life.

This process has risks, but it also has great reward. The truth is that there is no modern single sail, singled handed skiff out there that applies all the knowledge gained in last few years.

I am sure that this team will produce an exceptional boat; these guys are all professionals in their field plus champion sailors on the world stage. Between them they over 100 years of sailing and racing experience.

They do nothing but inspire me with confidence with their cool calm and measured manner.

#43 BalticBandit

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:22 PM

I'd agree on the comment that there is no single sail skiff that does this. But it seems to me that in part, that's because insisting on single sail creates a set of performance tradeoffs that make it hard to justify the price such a design will inevitably have to carry.

The simple physics of it is that the amount of sail carrying capacity you have off the wind is more than double that for upwind in any given wind range. That means that you either have a boat that is massively overpowered and an absolute bear to sail upwind, or you have mediocre downwind performance. The best example might be sailing a laser upwind in 30 knots vs downwind in 12.

Both are doable and are quite technical but hardly what would attract folks to a design.

Boats like the Musto, The D1, the Swift Solo, the RS 100 the old MX-Ray all address this by throwing up a kite offwindthat more than doubles the sail area. An yes it makes the offwind a little more complicated, but since off the wind you aren't fooling with the Cunno and vang, you are actually REDUCING the number of sail controls you worry about.


As for trapping vs. non-trapping... I understand the MARKETING decision for why not to go trapping, but trapping actually is the easier form of sailin. I wonder if some inflatable crash bags that came with the boat - essentially turning it into a trimaran, would address this: IE enough inflation that newbies to trapping can get used to trapping without the worry of pulling the boat over on yourself.

#44 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:56 PM

I'd agree on the comment that there is no single sail skiff that does this. But it seems to me that in part, that's because insisting on single sail creates a set of performance tradeoffs that make it hard to justify the price such a design will inevitably have to carry.

The simple physics of it is that the amount of sail carrying capacity you have off the wind is more than double that for upwind in any given wind range. That means that you either have a boat that is massively overpowered and an absolute bear to sail upwind, or you have mediocre downwind performance. The best example might be sailing a laser upwind in 30 knots vs downwind in 12.

Both are doable and are quite technical but hardly what would attract folks to a design.

Boats like the Musto, The D1, the Swift Solo, the RS 100 the old MX-Ray all address this by throwing up a kite offwindthat more than doubles the sail area. An yes it makes the offwind a little more complicated, but since off the wind you aren't fooling with the Cunno and vang, you are actually REDUCING the number of sail controls you worry about.


As for trapping vs. non-trapping... I understand the MARKETING decision for why not to go trapping, but trapping actually is the easier form of sailin. I wonder if some inflatable crash bags that came with the boat - essentially turning it into a trimaran, would address this: IE enough inflation that newbies to trapping can get used to trapping without the worry of pulling the boat over on yourself.

==================
Thats a good idea! When you look at speed for a small singlehanded boat there is no boat that compares with the Moth. But when you look at ease of sailing very few production boats compare with the WETA tri. Something to think about....

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#45 JimC

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:08 PM

but trapping actually is the easier form of sailin.

'taint necessarilly so. IMHO its only really true in really steady breezes on open water for younger sailors, who if they aren't on a wire would be hanging out the side with their knees on the gunwhale and the tendons getting ready to snap under the load.

I sailed forward hand dangling on a wire for twenty five years or something: its not as if I don't know the game, but when you get to my age and sail on a shifty lake, what with persistent cramp in my calf on the rear leg and everything else, wings/plank without boiling your knees is a damn sight less work and more fun than a wire. You only get teabagged so many times by a 30 degree header before you get fed up with it.

Similarly kite hoists and drops near the edge of a reservoir with shortish legs just get to be a pain in the neck as the years kick in: unless you do physical work all the time the explosive bursts of energy you need to get the kite up and down without losing half a dozen places just aren't available any more.

The big challenge I think is in the rig. If you can develop a rig where you can hold onto a lot of rag upwind and power it up downwind that will be part of the story. BUt the even bigger challengeis in gusty conditions. With the state of th art at the moment a fast singlehander is quick enough to sail out of gusts, but not fast enough to hunt them down. That's got to be the next step, because if you ca't hnt down the gusts you are stuck with sailing in the lulls...

[post interrupted to run outside hearing the snarl of a Merlin engine overhead!]

#46 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:19 PM

Jim is right- inland on a small lake a kite and trap not only don't pay, they can both be a right PITA- either on their own or worse, in combination.

#47 nzrat

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:38 PM

Interesting who is the designer ?

Lee ?
Roper ?
Stacey ?

#48 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:06 PM

Hi Guys

When simplicity is a primary design criteria you need to think in ‘minimums’ and eliminate everything that you can.

The decision to go 4.0 meters is based on the ‘lets create the minimum needed’

The rig is stay-less, only has a mainsheet, vang, cumingham, and outhaul.

This also takes out cost and allows you to put that money elsewhere – e.g. Carbon.

#49 brett221

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 03:35 AM

That is kind of a dumb assumption that creating a sailboat with the "minimum needed" will reduce cost and have any sort of appeal or performance potential.

But you should be able to see that already! Once the builder advises the designer about the structural requirements to keep the unstayed rig upright in the hull, and the mast maker advised the sail designer about what the requirements are to make the sail work effectively. Simple just because there are only 4 controls on the boat is very short sighted.

Sounds like you should invest in a carbon BIC O'Pen, as that is what the design breif and your descriptions sounds like.

#50 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:16 AM

I find it puzzling way so many people in the centreboard community focus on boat cost.

What would say the average guy spends on a power boat to go fishing? What does the average sports boat cost? Let’s not get into the cost of power boat racers, race cars, and motocross bikes or jet-skis racers.

I am not sure cost is the reason for declining centreboard number. What do you think?

#51 Poida

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:29 AM

Seriously, at a time when existing fleets are struggling to get people on the water, we need......A NEW CLASS?????

Dilution of the existing sailing base is disasterous and the selfish cash pig who is pushing another new class right now should take a good hard look at themselves.

There are plenty of great classes already out there peeps. Go support and grow one.

#52 sosoomii

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:31 AM

Bull Poida. You can't preserve sailing in 1970s formaldahide. Classes will come and go, as it should be.

#53 JimC

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:18 AM

You can't preserve sailing in 1970s formaldahide.

well I guess you could try, but things preserved in formalin smell nasty, look weird, and are dead...

There's a balance to be struck. Your boat has to inspire you to get out of a warm bed on Sunday morning and go race it... That means that both the racing and the actual sailing of the boat need to be a good enough experience, because no matter how much folk say "only the racing counts", if the only thing you sail for is to get competition against other people, well these days you can do that playing World of Warcraft or whatever without the hassle of leaving the house.

#54 Phil S

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:36 AM

FRASER, Since I have not convnced you to try a moth and you seem persistant in you new concept, I was going to send a PM with some other possibly more useful ideas but your have not provided SA with contacts. So here goes anyway:

wrt the unstayed rig: my experience with an unstayed IC rig may be relevant. The mast was 65mm dia up to 2.5m, thick walled CTek tube with extra in the sidewalls. It supported 10.6 sqM but with IC righting moment of my 80kg 2m off the centreline, the rig was way too soft, was not competitive upwind and horrible in waves. Thats with a skinny hull, a fat skiff hull will be worse in waves. Maybe you will have less RM but be wary.

I agree that building in carbon is the only way to go for a modern boat. Carbon is expensive by the kg but not by the kPa capacity. There is only $1500 worth of carbon fibre material in a moth. You might have 3 times that but in the total package its nothing, especially as to replace it you need at least double the weight in glass and to matix the extra you need 3 or 4 times the weight and cost in resin all resulting in 4 or 5 times the weight.

Like others I cringe at the thought of an other new class. I know AUS is saturated with numerous classes which can gather fleets of only 20 or 30 if they all get together. I have long held the impossible belief that anyone who wants to create a new class should be compelled to buy up the entire fleets of at least two old classes which he proposes to obsolete, and put them to the torch. Then at least we would be shrinking the class count not increasing it.

I am ot sure how different your project is to the HOOT, maybe its bigger. But the good work those guys did, without commercial success, must be of some value.

With all the class fragmentation in both single handed and two handed boats about 4m long maybe its time to take a lesson from the once fragmented 18ft Cat fleet who have created a formula class and one of the fastest growing and most competitive small boat classes in the world. A monohul formula each for one up one sail, one up two sail and a softer version of the I14 seems to be another less radical way of reducing the numbers of classes.

Consider please,
Phil S

#55 russyh

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:10 PM

Fraser, have you tried a D1?? If not you should!

Upwind its much, much faster than a Laser! It's stable and easy to sail although as with any performance hiker you will need to
Hike up and downwind. However it's the most comfortable boat I have hiked from. The fleet in the UK is just starting to kick off, with some top names joining the fleet! The growth is organic, without chucking huge money behind marketing hence why it's taking time to build. But growing we are. In mainland Europe the fleet has had some strong growth, but it's a market I don't have anything to do with or even understand.

#56 BalticBandit

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:45 PM

I find it puzzling way so many people in the centreboard community focus on boat cost.

What would say the average guy spends on a power boat to go fishing? What does the average sports boat cost? Let’s not get into the cost of power boat racers, race cars, and motocross bikes or jet-skis racers.

I am not sure cost is the reason for declining centreboard number. What do you think?

First of Frazer - I love cool new boats. I love sailing High perf boats. So don't get me wrong that I'm just a curmudgeon. But I was peripherally involved in the Swift Solo trying to turn into a larger class than it is and I've seen how hard the uptake on something like that is. So while what you are builiding is cool I just don't get it as to "why"? After all the "solution" you are building is simply a slighly less doggy Laser.

As to the motocross/powerboat comparison

The difference is that you can take a spouse out for a day on the water and tow the kids behind on their waterskis or wakeboard. So te powerboat - while primarily a Fishing Boat, is a "Family Fun" machine. Its also a place you can go out with buds "fishing" when what you are really doing is drifting and drinking.

The comparison to things like Motocross are closer, but there the price point isn't. I can get an entry level dirt bike for $2500 US and a cometitive motocross racer for $9k. A Musto Skiff, which is NOT all carbon, will run me $14kUS. AND unlike a Motocross bike,

  • I have no real financing options so I have to come up with the cash up front
    Suzuki will give me financing so that if I put $1k Down, I pay $320/mo
  • I still have to pay for a slip/launch/dockspace/storage - about $100/mo
    The Suzuki sits in my yard or garage costing me nothing
  • I can resell the bike for cash in almost nothing flat - my local Craigslist has 130 bikes listed.
    There are about 30 dinghy's listed in the same Craigslist
So the comparisons don't do favourably...

IF you can build an All Carbon boat for under $8k, And provide financing - well then you are in the ballpark of motorbikes... otherwise its not a real comparison.


as for hiking vs. trapping on a small lake - I get that. I turboed a Laser II to sail on my little lake - never once made it out on the trap, and had fun. but as soon as I got it into open water, I really wanted that trap.

That said, an asso kite on the small lake was hardly a problem. In fact the fun part was screaming across the lake and timing my gybe so that the boom with swipe the tall grass along the shore and seeing if I dared do that. even on the tiny lake I live on, the lack of a kite would have been BOOORRRRIIINNG...

And yes I more than resemble that "older guy with creaky joints" I've had bilateral ACL replacements, one wrist is shattered from footie and both feet have broken from stress fractures (thanks again footie). but hiking is way way way more painful than trapping... In a hiking boat, I simply can no longer compete with even someone in their mid 30s regardless of how fit I get. It literally just hurts my knees too much. On trap boat, I have a chance.

So if the market is targetted purely at small inland lake sailing - yeah sounds like a fit. But if you want to get some open water stuff going - as with the D1 - to be competitive on a hiking boat Jim, you are going to shred the remnants of those achy knees of yours



As to class building - I think PhilS largely has it right... Class fragmentation is a big big deal. For example if you want to penetrate the USA, you really need to essentially give away 10-20 boats. Pick a coast (east, West or South) and then go find 3 sailing cities within driving distance of each other (Boston, NY, Annapolis - Vancouver, Seattle, SFO - SFO, LA, SanDiego you get the idea) and essentially GIVE two juniors programs in each citty 3 boats and essentially lease them through the sailing programs to anyone who wants to race them. And then on top of that, set up a regional and national championship. That way you have a ready made regattae and interest.

BTW that's EXACTLY how the motocross folks do it as well.

#57 Amati

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 03:15 PM

I suppose you could start with a one design mast, a maximum single sail area, or SA/D, and let folks design any hull they want to a medium tech material weight, like lbs per cubic foot. At least the mast stiffness would be a moot point.

Edit- mandate plywood?

Cost is a big deal. Sailing is the coolest sport on the planet, but it is not normal to most folks. Cost helps rationalize things big time to non believers. Look at the early days of windsurfing. Or fixies, for that matter. Maybe it's a type of elegance.

#58 sosoomii

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 03:55 PM

So many different opinions, all so deviant from your brief!

FWIW though, whilst less weight almost always equals higher top speed, I wonder if a carbon hull is necessary for an unstayed singlehander? You’ve already binned 70kg from ditching the crew, you don’t need torsional stiffness to support high rigging loads and a very light hull will raise the centre of gravity (making it twitchier and harder to launch). If, as I suspect, it has a daggerboard rather than centreboard, you will either have to launch with no daggerboard in (even harder) or reach across very wide wings to put it in, whilst the boat is rolling around and the boom is swinging across catching the dagger.

All the best.

#59 Ron D

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:42 PM

I imagine that building a new class is a heart breaking business. Even when you tick off all of the right boxes, it will be years before you have much class momentum. I am looking at the new boats stats for the UK classes: Blaze - 1st yr=15, 2nd yr=15, 3rd yr=13; Musto - 1st yr=11, 2nd yr=16, 3rd yr=21. Now imagine all of those spread over a country. You are basically lucky to find anyone to race for the first few years. And those are the successful ones. Then there are others like MX Ray or CL Stealth that never really get off the ground. Hard to justify the development and production costs with those kinds of numbers.

For all that, you are still not making inroads against the Laser which is still adding more than a 100 boats per year. Unfortunately, it's not like the electronics business where a ton of early adopters jump on board from day one. The boat business starts slow and grows slow.

Don't get me wrong. I love new boats. Boating magazines would be deadly dull if all they wrote about this year's model of the Laser, basically last year's model. The Laser seems so dated and painful, it would be so nice to put it out of its misery (which is not going to happen in my life time or that of anyone reading this forum).

Hope that you are ready for the long haul.

#60 Doug Lord

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:03 PM

I'm sure you've done a lot of research but you may have missed this. It is a new, carbon singlehander designed by Vlad Murnikov ,designer of the MX Ray. Should be sailing soon....
Good luck with your boat!

website(new)- www.mxspeeddream.com
------MX Next------MX Ray
===================
LOA- 14'4"---------12'11"
Beam-3'------------5'
Beam Overall-6'6"---5'
Beam,WL-1'9"-------2'3"
SA main-110sq.ft.---84sq.ft.
SA asy-110sq.ft.----110sq.ft.
Rigged Weight-90lb--140lb.
Crew Weight-180lb--180lb.
Displ.-270lb.--------320lb.
SA/D*-1.62----------1.34
Displ/WL*-.45--------.53
LWL/BWL-8.2-------5.9
*I'm not familiar with this method of calculation, for those used to the calculation of DLR and SA/D as per Eric Sponbergs "Design Ratios"( see pdf below) , here are the results for both boats. (SA/D main only) :
MX RAY-
a. DLR(smaller better)= 66.3
b. SA/D(higher better)=28.71
------
MX Next
a. DLR=40.77
b. SA/D= 42.1

Attached Files



#61 eliboat

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:36 PM

Well now Doug, Looks like you found the foils you were looking for!!!! Vlad is just smarter than everyone else and has put them in the air. In all seriousness, I think the MX next should be a better boat than the MXray, judging by the hull shape, which I've actually seen in more detail.

#62 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:58 PM

I imagine that building a new class is a heart breaking business. Even when you tick off all of the right boxes, it will be years before you have much class momentum. I am looking at the new boats stats for the UK classes: Blaze - 1st yr=15, 2nd yr=15, 3rd yr=13; Musto - 1st yr=11, 2nd yr=16, 3rd yr=21. Now imagine all of those spread over a country. You are basically lucky to find anyone to race for the first few years. And those are the successful ones. Then there are others like MX Ray or CL Stealth that never really get off the ground. Hard to justify the development and production costs with those kinds of numbers.

For all that, you are still not making inroads against the Laser which is still adding more than a 100 boats per year. Unfortunately, it's not like the electronics business where a ton of early adopters jump on board from day one. The boat business starts slow and grows slow.

Don't get me wrong. I love new boats. Boating magazines would be deadly dull if all they wrote about this year's model of the Laser, basically last year's model. The Laser seems so dated and painful, it would be so nice to put it out of its misery (which is not going to happen in my life time or that of anyone reading this forum).

Hope that you are ready for the long haul.


It's very true- to get the most out of a new class (in the uk at least) you either need to accept you're travelling for your sailing, or you need to actively cluster the early adopters to help the bloke selling them establish fleets (it also helps if the seller 'supports' group deals!) This is what we did in the RS100s - hubs of activity at certain clubs and now some good fleets are around the country. I know several people who changed clubs to help kick start the class activity- myself included. RS have done the rest and for a new class in a recession it ain't doing too badly.

#63 ortegakid

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:36 PM

If the Next truly makes it to production I want one, loved my MX, just not competitive in a portsmouth fleet. But that kite sure made it fun!

#64 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:58 PM

Hi

Thanks for the feedback everybody, it is appreciated!!!

#65 jmetcher

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:42 PM

No trap, no kite, unstayed carbon mast, easy on the knees, works for a wide weight range, goes at 20+, 4m long - this thing is obviously a new design of longboard windsurfer. Not sure why they think they need the wings though...

#66 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:48 AM

I don’t want to be provocative but could the ‘old classes’ be part of the problem. A lot of people say ‘support an existing class’ but many of the designs are over 40 years old. I don’t know of any sport that involves racing that uses 40 year old equipment.

There also seems to be a focus on cost when that could be more about value. When buying a current class what do you get for your money. – An old design and building method.

It is clear to see why classes like Moths have prospered because they offer a truly modern boat for those fit enough to sail it.

I would welcome your thoughts...

#67 Doug Lord

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:12 AM

I think producing a "new" boat whose claim to fame is a carbon hull but uses no other "modern" technology is short sighted. There is tremendous room for a new dinghy design that utilizes lifting foils in a way that benefits performance without having to be sailed by an acrobat. This kind of thing has been recognized in numerous new multihull designs but hardly at all in singlehanded monohull design. Other than the Moth only one other class uses foils to 100% lift the boat(the R Class) and they are a very small class and allow the two crew to use foils or not in racing. But using foils for 100% liftoff is NOT necessary. The two person National 12 and I-14 both use "foil assist" where some proportion of the total weight is supported by a single lifting foil on the rudder. I think a modern 100% new singlehanded dinghy designed from scratch using lifting foils for "foil assist" could allow startling performance in a boat that was easy to sail. It is an area of dinghy design that is wide open but is currently(as best I can tell) being ignored. Doing another unstayed singlehander similar to a half dozen other singlehanders that are virtually identical to each other is going nowhere. A designer that trully takes advantage of the available, proven, modern technology to produce a fast easily sailed boat like no other will find a receptive audience.
If you are going to take on existing classes you'd better have an extraordinary design that takes full advantage of the technology that is available right now. Don't do a lesser design-you'll regret it I'm afraid.
Best of luck!

#68 BalticBandit

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:54 AM

doug - you are Facking clueless as to how the foils an an I-14 work... give it up.

Jmetcher - you have a very good point. The ideal "boat" for a small lake were you want to carry gobs of sail area upwind so your downind perf doesn't suck... well is a windsurfer. Essentially you "reef" the power of the sail by using it to lift you and the hull out of the water upwind, and downwind if you have enough sail area, you can plane at angles not much higher than a skiff.


And in fact that MIGHT be something to consider as an Innovative Design feature: a mast that articulates to weather upwind, thereby reducing heeling moment..

#69 Doug Lord

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:07 AM

doug - you are Facking clueless as to how the foils an an I-14 work... give it up.

-----------------------------
Nonsense. Upwind the foil lifts vertically allowing the crew to move aft while downwind the foil can be used to pull the stern down.
But there are more modern ways to accomplish the same thing(though illegal in the I-14 class) that make the whole thing more automatic as well as allow a greater proportion of the boats weight to be lifted without any complicated altitude control system or acrobatic crew requirements. With modern design the proportion of the total sailing weight supported by "foil assist" could be above 50%.
As shown below, that is 89.9lbs(about 15% of total weight) of vertical lift on the rudder going upwind at 9kts. in an I-14!

From the Bieker paper on the subject:

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#70 Doug Lord

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:17 AM

I don't think a canting mast is proven very well on a "normal" dinghy though it has been used on the Merlin:

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#71 Cruiser

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 05:38 AM

I don’t want to be provocative but could the ‘old classes’ be part of the problem. A lot of people say ‘support an existing class’ but many of the designs are over 40 years old. I don’t know of any sport that involves racing that uses 40 year old equipment.

There also seems to be a focus on cost when that could be more about value. When buying a current class what do you get for your money. – An old design and building method.

It is clear to see why classes like Moths have prospered because they offer a truly modern boat for those fit enough to sail it.

I would welcome your thoughts...


You don't have to be fit to sail a moth, that's just a misconception or excuse people use not to try one for fear of embarrassing themselves. You may need to be fit to win in one but that's the same in any class. Its much more about learning a new skill, just like windsurfing, skateboarding or riding a bike. You can't expect to pickup these new skills overnight but why do so many expect to jump from class to class and be up to speed instantly? Having said that though I have also seen plenty of sailors just jump on them and go, theyre not that hard.

Old classes never fukin die because, once they become unpopular then they become cheap and then people start racing them again, then they start spending money on the them, then finally they become too expensive and die again!

#72 kprice

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:24 AM

Hi

Thanks for the feedback everybody, it is appreciated!!!


The Hoot seems close to what you are describing....it was all tooled up and ready to go, then killed by the US economy at the time....http://www.gohoot.com/history.html

#73 Poida

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:56 AM

Bull Poida. You can't preserve sailing in 1970s formaldahide. Classes will come and go, as it should be.

Well, I don't want to hear another complaint about poor class sizes then.

#74 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:31 AM

I don&rsquo;t want to be provocative but could the &lsquo;old classes&rsquo; be part of the problem. A lot of people say &lsquo;support an existing class&rsquo; but many of the designs are over 40 years old. I don&rsquo;t know of any sport that involves racing that uses 40 year old equipment.


It's not provocative, it's an honest question, so I hope I can give you an honest answer.

I know from experience that buying a newer class can give a lovely adrenaline shot. Newer classes often mean learning new skills, especially in singlehanders - trapeze helming, gennaker setting, more planing/high speed sailing, upwind planing, foiling?... any combination of the above really. The learning curve can be frustrating, but it's usually highly addictive once you are over certain 'humps' along the way, especially if the attitude is right in the class- the MPS and RS fleets are excellent for getting you dialled-in or at least far enough along to enjoy their boats... your first planing gybe in an asymmetric singlehander is just bliss for example.

However once this novelty factor settles down, anyone with a racing mentality will start to hunt out proper competition- and that's not sailing in some procession to a handicap result on a spreadsheet. (Especially if your courses are anything like the local ones at our lakes, then you can rule out asymmetrics and probably trapezing and foiling for starters) So that means you're probably going to have to travel to get proper racing - if you're lucky enough, not too far to join up with others sailing your class. Or if you're really, really lucky then you and a few mates from your existing club will do yourselves an early adopter 'group deal' and establish the class on home waters- it's happened here in the UK for both the D1 (Lymington) and the RS100 in Poole and the Isle of Wight.

However there's the rest of us- whose lives aren't flexible enough for sailing to be the number 1 priority. If we want close racing and can't travel to find it in a new class, we have to turn to established classes, which on the face of it, do exactly what we want- provide close racing. And you know what, it's not a bad idea to help support it either, especially in a recession- there's loads of second hand boats, from right old shitters to reasonably competitive at club level boats for well under half the price of a new boat. This offers the very lowest level of depreciation- I don't think I've ever lost money on a Laser.

So whilst old classes may well be a barrier to entry for a new builder- especially one whose only apparent USP is to sell in carbon at cost and hope it can smash 20 knots on the water - I can see why you would view it as 'a problem'. But having spent well over $50k in the last ten years on 'new dinghy classes', I can honestly feedback that one man's problem, is another man's solution.

Happy sailing and best of luck regardless- it takes guts and determination to enter a market with the odds for genuine commercial success so greatly stacked against you. I respect your courage and conviction, and genuinely hope at the very least you sell enough to sail them yourself amongst your friends and customers.

Jimbo

#75 GBRNoah

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:31 PM

I don’t want to be provocative but could the ‘old classes’ be part of the problem. A lot of people say ‘support an existing class’ but many of the designs are over 40 years old. I don’t know of any sport that involves racing that uses 40 year old equipment.

I would welcome your thoughts...


I'm certainly NOT using 40 yr old equipment! I might be sailing a class whose lines were drawn 50 years ago, but the build methods (although perhaps not the materials) are bang up to date. This is where the UK one-design ethos thrives; continual, gradual evolution. My 2003 hull is the same shape and made of the same stuff as boats which are several years older and/or newer. Good thing? Yes - it maintains competitive life and reduces depreciation. Bad thing? Maybe. Depends how you define 'progress'. There have been some alleged developments in the hull shape and distribution of the different materials involved in recent times, but I'm nowhere near good enough to capitalise on the minute percentages involved (one bad tack, etc.).

I'm always interested to learn when a new design is announced but I'm not an early adopter and there are many dinghy sailors around who think likewise.

I'd still like to wish you good luck!

#76 bruno

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:08 PM

From my experience with a somewhat similar idea:
8-10 kgs of unstayed carbon rig in the bows tends to sink the bows
Length matters, IMHO 15' is a minimum upwind and in chop, ofwind if narrow it gives a bit of float and speed, ideally one is planing around on the last 2' but it doesn't always work that way.
Finn style rig is great for DDW but on a narrow boat the balancing will limit the less nimble.
Stayed Moth style rig saves a lot of weight but limits AWA.
Wide racks are great for hiking, yes, work about like you reckon, but molded decks are more comfortable for hiking.
Also was warned that bladders would drag and they do (beam =8-4"), this is a problem. Raise the racks to clear the chop (16" min.) and/or angle higher but the higher younare the higher the LCG, also boom clearances, etc.
Reaching controls on wide racks is tricky, rigging gets complicated fast, simplicity is nice.
Unstayed you want to play the kicker alot.
Twin sticks vs. single vs. midboom vs. endboom vs. width...
advantage of a nimble craft is the key, if one wants straight lining then trap or Moth.
Centerboard is nice vs. dagger, ditto easy rudder mounting.
I would think that a non-carbon scantling would suffice, check with Larry Tuttle re: 505 panels and that would be my goal.

#77 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:07 PM

Also worth googling Rooster Project X - seems to be rearing its head again in Northamptonshire - big aspirations from Rooster Sailing, similar design brief but vinylester to cut the cost further.

#78 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:06 PM

Hi

Thank you so much for your feedback, clearly I am not the designer so I will pass on what you are telling me. I appreciate the interest.

I am a computer programmer and have work to burn. I am not going into the boat business, my role is to introduce the class as promote it where I can. I clearly hope a lot of people (especially those 50 plus) have a bit of fun in their lives. Today we work very hard and fun is in short supply, so a fast little boat is an opportunity to enjoy yourself.

#79 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:08 PM

HI

I WILL ANNOUNCE THE DESIGN TEAM IN 24 HOURS. COME BACK TO FIND OUT THE TALENT BEHIND THIS PROJECT

#80 FishAintBiting

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:35 PM

...
I clearly hope a lot of people (especially those 50 plus) have a bit of fun in their lives. Today we work very hard and fun is in short supply, so a fast little boat is an opportunity to enjoy yourself.


Then buy a Moth. Fast, exciting, has fleets, and handles a range of weights.

If that doesn't work then perhaps you don't need to go fast to have fun. The Viper 640 looks to be good fun and isn't too slow (I have in my time sailed 18'ers, 14'ers, and skiff moths pre-foils). Existing fleets and many second hand boats are positives too.

Cheers,

Fish

#81 mustang__1

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:38 PM

i cannot fathom wanting to design a new boat that is another hiker. i think there is a market for a more easily sailed (than, say, a musto skiff), easier to get into (than a swift solo), and with a kite. actually, if you just went into production building and promoting the swift solo, you'd would have what i envision as a big gap in the market. not everyone has the time to build a swift, and i wouldt say its promoted all that rigorously (anymore).

#82 Scarecrow

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:02 PM

Fraser,

while your designers are clearly the world's best and capable of achieving what no-one else can, you should consider bringing Damien Smith into your loop. Damien is a bit of a boffin and as part of his uni thesis back in the 90s he developed a time step VPP which he then refined for the Ronstan Little America's cup campaign, he has also done a lot of work on dynamic rig responce for unstayed carbon masts. The reason I mention Damien is that if you really want a boat that can be raced fairly across a range of crew weights you need the time step VPP not a typical equalibriem setup to truelly appreciate how the boat's performance around the course will be effected by crew weight. Without this the only way it can be achieved is by equalising righting moment, total weight (crew + boat) and transverse and longitudinal moments of inertia (although transverse will be a good start). This would require wings that can be adjusted to crew size, like the 49er started with, but also the ability to add up to 25kg (assuming 70-120kg crew range) to the end of each wing.

#83 couchsurfer

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 12:20 AM

i cannot fathom wanting to design a new boat that is another hiker. i think there is a market for a more easily sailed (than, say, a musto skiff), easier to get into (than a swift solo), and with a kite. actually, if you just went into production building and promoting the swift solo, you'd would have what i envision as a big gap in the market. not everyone has the time to build a swift, and i wouldt say its promoted all that rigorously (anymore).


..can't agree more!

#84 BalticBandit

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:27 AM

i cannot fathom wanting to design a new boat that is another hiker. i think there is a market for a more easily sailed (than, say, a musto skiff), easier to get into (than a swift solo), and with a kite. actually, if you just went into production building and promoting the swift solo, you'd would have what i envision as a big gap in the market. not everyone has the time to build a swift, and i wouldt say its promoted all that rigorously (anymore).

The only prob with the Solo is that it is actually harder to right than a Musto. By quite a bit. With the Musto you can curl your toes on the gun'l and step up onto the CB when the boat is at about 110deg of inversion. The Solo has no such "step up" and hence you ALWAYS have to pull yourself up onto the blade with your arms. and that's bloody exhausting for someone who's not a gymnast or a 14yo Spider Monkey.

But the more I think about it, Frazer's boat has already been built. A Nacra 5.2 Yes I know - its a multi... but face it.. it has the performance you want. It can be sailed 1 up or 2 up. you can "sit hike it" if you want and still have decent performance, or you can Trap off of it and fly.

See the whole gotcha here is the desire to essentially compromise off wind performance in favor of upwind stability. Well that's almost the definition of a catamaran minus the offwind performance tradeoff.

And it is easier to launch than a skiff
Easy to trailer.

Seriously - right now there are no high performance OD cats. you have the A Class folks and then you have the Hobie Rotomolded crap. A cat gives you the upwind sail carrying platform without getting too twitchy and the wide righting moment gives you the stability you want without the need to trap...

#85 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:48 AM

.Seriously - right now there are no high performance OD cats;you have the A Class folks and then you have the Hobie Rotomolded crap; A cat gives you the upwind sail carrying platform without getting too twitchy and the wide righting moment gives you the stability you want without the need to trap...

--------------
Nacra 17 Olympic(with foil assist), Nacra 20(with foil assist),moderate performance singlehanded Weta Trimaran, Motive 15 trimaran (under development).
But I think there is wide open potential for a radically new, advanced design singlehanded monohull-just don't settle for "same,old, same old" because that will absolutely not work! Good luck, Fraser, to you and your team......

#86 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:54 AM

THE TEAM

Rob Shaw

In recent years Rob Shaw has proven himself with an array of very successful designs. He boats are both extremely fast and very well behaved. Robs sport boat designs are cleanup everything and his boats are ‘giant killers’. His 30 foot Karma Police was faster than a TP 52.

Alex Vallings – C-Tech

Alex’s company C-Tech is a well known carbon mast maker. His masts have won many national and world titles. Alex is an 18 footer sailor and recent won the Nespresso 18ft Skiff title in SF.

Andrew Will and Derek Scott - North Sails Auckland

Andrew is a World Champion sailor and coach, Andrew has raced one design boats since he was eight years old, moving from an Optimist through the National classes to the Laser Olympic class, winning many titles along the way. He has in September won the North American Etchells championship.

Derek is the current 3.7 skiff national champion.

Craig Partridge – Partridge Yachts

Craig is the ‘Master of Carbon’ coming from a boat building family and the builder of choice for hi-tech carbon racers. Craig owns and races the Shaw design ‘Animal Biscuits’

Posted Image

Posted Image

#87 mustang__1

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:13 AM


i cannot fathom wanting to design a new boat that is another hiker. i think there is a market for a more easily sailed (than, say, a musto skiff), easier to get into (than a swift solo), and with a kite. actually, if you just went into production building and promoting the swift solo, you'd would have what i envision as a big gap in the market. not everyone has the time to build a swift, and i wouldt say its promoted all that rigorously (anymore).

The only prob with the Solo is that it is actually harder to right than a Musto. By quite a bit. With the Musto you can curl your toes on the gun'l and step up onto the CB when the boat is at about 110deg of inversion. The Solo has no such "step up" and hence you ALWAYS have to pull yourself up onto the blade with your arms. and that's bloody exhausting for someone who's not a gymnast or a 14yo Spider Monkey.

But the more I think about it, Frazer's boat has already been built. A Nacra 5.2 Yes I know - its a multi... but face it.. it has the performance you want. It can be sailed 1 up or 2 up. you can "sit hike it" if you want and still have decent performance, or you can Trap off of it and fly.

See the whole gotcha here is the desire to essentially compromise off wind performance in favor of upwind stability. Well that's almost the definition of a catamaran minus the offwind performance tradeoff.

And it is easier to launch than a skiff
Easy to trailer.

Seriously - right now there are no high performance OD cats. you have the A Class folks and then you have the Hobie Rotomolded crap. A cat gives you the upwind sail carrying platform without getting too twitchy and the wide righting moment gives you the stability you want without the need to trap...


then fix that aspect. in any case, my first though reading this thread was: oh great, another hiker that will cost too much and perform too little (compared to the efficiency of trapping).

#88 Norm

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:17 AM

Why no trapeze ? Just curious, two of your team have certainly spent some time on them !!

#89 Forza

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:12 AM

Fraser : as per your posts todate ~
Where does the (super) computing figure in the design loop, and if the depth of talent is real why test the a prototype to evaluate dynamic (actual) outcome ?

#90 BalticBandit

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:25 PM

then fix that aspect. [hard to right] in any case, my first though reading this thread was: oh great, another hiker that will cost too much and perform too little (compared to the efficiency of trapping).

Well its kinda hard to do. Because what makes the boat hard to get on the fin is what makes it easiy to sail... namely the widely flared topsides. They immerse and lift the board WAY UPTHERE.. kinda like the 49er but without the narrow gunn'l joint to get a step up from.

Now you COULD put a little "step bump" on the hull, but you'd be putting it right in the place of max drag.

And you cannot go narrower on the flare because that's what makes the "relativity" ratios work...


See this is exactly the sort of design challange you get.



Frazer your team looks great... but realy what you have is Rob Shaw designing the hull. The rest is - well build and sails. You can do a fair amout with that, but you cannot get over the righting moment issue. And I just don't see how you will get around the need to hike/stack...make the wings as wide as you like, but in the end, stacking will work better than not stacking.

And stacking sucks...

#91 CapSizer

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:12 PM

Frazer, this has been a delightful discussion to sit and watch with a bowl of popcorn, but I can't get away from the impression that you are asking for inputs from the wrong people. It is unlikely that you will sell (m)any boats to the people reading this forum ... so how about asking another market what they want. And in this instance you need to be asking those people on the fringes (ie. those who have left, or are considering leaving sailing) of singlehanded sailing what features in a single hander would get them out sailing again. I would honestly love to hear what these people have to say.

If you are going after a market which already has several established classes, you threaten something that some may hold very dear. You should not expect threatened people to behave rationally.

#92 ortegakid

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:09 PM

Still want one!, bring it to fruition.

#93 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:58 PM

The Target Market

You are absolutely right, my target market is those (like myself) who have left sailing and now that I want to go back I am faced with either a very old low tech option or a trapeze / foiler option. At the old end they are both slow and uncomfortable and the trapeze/foiler option look to intimidating. I fear that on the trapeze/foiler option I will injure myself and ruin everything.

There is no point in me creating another trapeze/foiler as the current classes fill that market and there are many to choose from. This is in fact nothing out there that is faster than a Laser and comfortable to sail. This boat will not be as fast as a Moth, 49er and other trapeze boats but it will be a very fast boat.

We live in a time of an aging population and the 50 plus have some level of fitness. This demographic whose children have left home have money and they are looking to ‘get their life back’ and we need to offer them a boat that was designed with them in mind. This is demographic I seek to interest and there are 100,000’s of them out there, I am one of them.

#94 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:24 PM

The Target Market

There is no point in me creating another trapeze/foiler as the current classes fill that market and there are many to choose from. This is in fact nothing out there that is faster than a Laser and comfortable to sail.

=========
There is not one single currently produced trapeze foiler! And there is no foiler other than the Moth that is a hiking singlehander. But where the real vacuum is, for people of our age, is in an easy to sail "foil assist" singlehanded dinghy -not a single one anywhere. It is a proven fact that "foil assist" will not only increase speed but facillitate easier handling and a better ride all round. It seems inconceivable to me that any team would focus just on hull/rig design at this time in history when so much is known about how foil assist can work for an easy to sail, modern, singlehander.

#95 Norm

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:07 PM

faster than a laser ? what about D1 or rs100


Is your target market europe/usa or NZ/australia. I would love to see an updater farr 3.7 - a bit longer, with spinnaker and new deck.

#96 G.R.F.

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:13 PM

The Target Market

You are absolutely right, my target market is those (like myself) who have left sailing and now that I want to go back I am faced with either a very old low tech option or a trapeze / foiler option. At the old end they are both slow and uncomfortable and the trapeze/foiler option look to intimidating. I fear that on the trapeze/foiler option I will injure myself and ruin everything.

There is no point in me creating another trapeze/foiler as the current classes fill that market and there are many to choose from. This is in fact nothing out there that is faster than a Laser and comfortable to sail. This boat will not be as fast as a Moth, 49er and other trapeze boats but it will be a very fast boat.

We live in a time of an aging population and the 50 plus have some level of fitness. This demographic whose children have left home have money and they are looking to ‘get their life back’ and we need to offer them a boat that was designed with them in mind. This is demographic I seek to interest and there are 100,000’s of them out there, I am one of them.


Have read this thread and fully support what you are trying to achieve, funnily enough I've ended up after a lot of pfaffing around, including designing and building something attempting to do the same for myself, with a little Laser EPS, which if you can get a look at one has about everything you need to do in about the right place, it has a few faults, but compared to a lot of the old dross the damn dinghy luddites would thrust upon anyone who asks in the name of their stupid 'class' racing, it is pretty nifty and light. It has a great hull design lacking only in a bit of freeboard, the racks are very comfortable and slide in and out to multi positions very easily, the rig system with it's short below the boom stays allows excellent running by the lee and it's two part carbon mast is also the best mast I've come across in small boats. (I've been in another business that uses unstayed carbon masts so know a bit about them, windsurfing..)

So as I said, keep one eye on it, if someone were to rebuild it in modern techniques, give it a semi soft rig and a centreboard rather than daggerboard, with a kick up rudder, essential for those of us on the coast or rivers with shallows, I'd consider looking at it with a view to filling a container (It's my business in other sports).

One other bit of advice, don't pay too much mind to dinghy sailors they are a lost cause as a market, so closed minded, closed walleted, and set in a previous century time warp. Returnees would be an excellent target, especially those that left because of all the old crap there is, being warmed over and bandit marketed or just prolonging the death throws of pre history.

Good Luck with your project, i shall watch with interest.

PS, you're thinking too short,not sure how long this EPS is but it is about right...

#97 Scarecrow

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:45 PM

Frazer, this has been a delightful discussion to sit and watch with a bowl of popcorn, but I can't get away from the impression that you are asking for inputs from the wrong people. It is unlikely that you will sell (m)any boats to the people reading this forum ... so how about asking another market what they want. And in this instance you need to be asking those people on the fringes (ie. those who have left, or are considering leaving sailing) of singlehanded sailing what features in a single hander would get them out sailing again. I would honestly love to hear what these people have to say.

If you are going after a market which already has several established classes, you threaten something that some may hold very dear. You should not expect threatened people to behave rationally.


I think your missinterpreting a lot of what has been said above (aside from many people who have said the last thing we need is another class).

What has prompted many of the critical posts is some of the "targets" Fraser has identified in his early posts:

Speeds up to 20 knots would make it faster than most cats on the market, not bad for a non foiling, non trapese, non kite boat.
Able to be raced by sailors between 70 and 120kg. On a simple boat without multiple rigs and or adjustable wings etc just not going to happen. Heck in 95% of classes if you aren't within 5kg of optimum you will really struggle to get to the front of the fleet.
And then of course there is the fact that it is being designed built etc by "The Best" not "some of the best" in a country with as many great designers as NZ and not one but two teams building AC72s, that is a pretty high flying claim.

Like most here I wish Fraser all the luck in the world with the project but he needs to apply a bullshit (sheep shit in NZ) filter to what he says in places where people can comment or he'll get comments like most of the ones above.

#98 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:09 PM

Hi Guys

I agree I got a little excited in the early posts, however I have complete confidence that the team will produce a wonderful boat.

Rob Shaw has the talent to produce a very fast design that goes up and down wind in a balanced well behaved way and added to this all his boats are very pleasing on the eye. He has an intuition about what works plus the right mix of technical skills to crunch the numbers.

Add to this North Sails are using the French Loft to design the sail. The guy who produced the sail design for Groupama in VOR will lead that process.

I have complete confidence that this team have the talent to get it right.

Thank you all for your support

#99 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:12 PM

the damn dinghy luddites would thrust upon anyone who asks in the name of their stupid 'class' racing,


Too bite or not too bite? Hmm.... Well if you are advocating some box rules and racing scratch, shit yeah I'm in... We can even make those legacy classes you hate so much part of the formula, that way there's a party and everyone's invited. Obviously the new boats would win wouldn't they??? ;-)

But you don't do you? You mean that handicap racing- with a spreadsheet and a barrell of excuses in the bar afterwards- save it for the golf club.

#100 couchsurfer

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:52 PM

Hi Guys

I agree I got a little excited in the early posts, however I have complete confidence that the team will produce a wonderful boat.

Rob Shaw has the talent to produce a very fast design that goes up and down wind in a balanced well behaved way and added to this all his boats are very pleasing on the eye. He has an intuition about what works plus the right mix of technical skills to crunch the numbers.

Add to this North Sails are using the French Loft to design the sail. The guy who produced the sail design for Groupama in VOR will lead that process.

I have complete confidence that this team have the talent to get it right.

Thank you all for your support


...I hope yer still respect those experts when they tell you to get over your fear of using a chute and trap,,
,,or to get a kiteboard for those speeds

...sorry,,you will not get all those qualities in one vessel,,get used to it! :mellow:





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