3316 replies to this topic

[GybeSet®]

the Vang - well is changing it really worth the effort?  Contenders have sidestays which limit the travel of the boom, I don't see them complaining..

And they're horrible dead down wind in the light stuff.   Lasers go past you.   The vang on the Shaw definitely needs sorting out to allow the boom to square out.

Contenders also have way more RM, so they can generate a lot more speed on a deep reach and hence more VMG without going DDW.

A Contender sails DDW and doesn't sail hotter angles like a skiff.   It goes by the lee.   See the beginning of this youtube vid   
 
The shrouds are a pain, so, loads of kicker has to be let out to twist off the sail and, inefficiently, get the sail out square.   
 
By heading up a bit, sure you'll generate more speed but your VMG to the bottom mark will be worse.
 
In Fraser's boat, the kicker will press on the deck and 'tighten' up the leech ; it's not good.    At least with the Contender, the shrouds stop the boom and the kicker can be slackened off to get the twist.
 
If Fraser fixes the kicker at deck level, the boom is free to go out square and the leech tension can be set at whatever is best for control/speed.  Simples.

.
boatshed I think If it was up to individual choice, many would not go to 'deck level'. I believe they would go to the lower more effective vang so they could properly vang sheet
I think thats the nature and DNA of the rig, minimalist mainsheet meant for lateral purposes only. like the FX and many others of that ilk.
 
I reckon a less effective vang would leave you with little control over leech tension,
a more important consideration in the breezier locales this design will sail in.
 
No doubt some will say that superior bt lee will gain some of that back, well .... its meant to sail OD and can still release vang on DDW runs

[BalticBandit]

 

 

the Vang - well is changing it really worth the effort?  Contenders have sidestays which limit the travel of the boom, I don't see them complaining..

And they're horrible dead down wind in the light stuff.   Lasers go past you.   The vang on the Shaw definitely needs sorting out to allow the boom to square out. 

Contenders also have way more RM, so they can generate a lot more speed on a deep reach and hence more VMG without going DDW.

A Contender sails DDW and doesn't sail hotter angles like a skiff.   It goes by the lee.   See the beginning of this youtube vid   

 

The shrouds are a pain, so, loads of kicker has to be let out to twist off the sail and, inefficiently, get the sail out square.   

 

By heading up a bit, sure you'll generate more speed but your VMG to the bottom mark will be worse.

 

In Fraser's boat, the kicker will press on the deck and 'tighten' up the leech ; it's not good.    At least with the Contender, the shrouds stop the boom and the kicker can be slackened off to get the twist.

 

If Fraser fixes the kicker at deck level, the boom is free to go out square and the leech tension can be set at whatever is best for control/speed.  Simples.    

Well the full battens in Fraser's boat will also be a problem. Cuz with full battens in a batten pocket, inverting the shape of the sail for BTL is much harder, and so is opening the leach as much as the Contender is doing   (my bad on the offwind mode for Contenders).  So if a Contender has to drive BTL, then I suspect the Shaw will as well... Interesting.

[Boatshed]

 

 

 

the Vang - well is changing it really worth the effort?  Contenders have sidestays which limit the travel of the boom, I don't see them complaining..

And they're horrible dead down wind in the light stuff.   Lasers go past you.   The vang on the Shaw definitely needs sorting out to allow the boom to square out. 

Contenders also have way more RM, so they can generate a lot more speed on a deep reach and hence more VMG without going DDW.

A Contender sails DDW and doesn't sail hotter angles like a skiff.   It goes by the lee.   See the beginning of this youtube vid   

 

The shrouds are a pain, so, loads of kicker has to be let out to twist off the sail and, inefficiently, get the sail out square.   

 

By heading up a bit, sure you'll generate more speed but your VMG to the bottom mark will be worse.

 

In Fraser's boat, the kicker will press on the deck and 'tighten' up the leech ; it's not good.    At least with the Contender, the shrouds stop the boom and the kicker can be slackened off to get the twist.

 

If Fraser fixes the kicker at deck level, the boom is free to go out square and the leech tension can be set at whatever is best for control/speed.  Simples.    

Well the full battens in Fraser's boat will also be a problem. Cuz with full battens in a batten pocket, inverting the shape of the sail for BTL is much harder, and so is opening the leach as much as the Contender is doing   (my bad on the offwind mode for Contenders).  So if a Contender has to drive BTL, then I suspect the Shaw will as well... Interesting.

The mast rotates on the Shaw, so, the battens and luff track interaction will be fine when the boom is square out.   I agree that with a fixed mast and a squared out boom, the batten/mast interaction will be a problem.     The leech twist is controlled by the vang and I don't think the full batten sail will make this difficult in anything over a few knots of breeze.   I think when running properly BTL, the flow reverses of the main going from leech to luff and this will happen on the Shaw if the boom is allowed to move fully out.

 

Some here seem deluded that because this is an Antipodean design it will spend all it's time sailing hot angles downwind, therefore, the boom never needs to go out beyond a 'reaching" angle.   The only way this will happen if the race office never sets a course with a dead run in it.    Or  the boat is just used as a beach blasting toy.

[Boatshed]

 

 

 

the Vang - well is changing it really worth the effort?  Contenders have sidestays which limit the travel of the boom, I don't see them complaining..

And they're horrible dead down wind in the light stuff.   Lasers go past you.   The vang on the Shaw definitely needs sorting out to allow the boom to square out.

 

Contenders also have way more RM, so they can generate a lot more speed on a deep reach and hence more VMG without going DDW.

 

A Contender sails DDW and doesn't sail hotter angles like a skiff.   It goes by the lee.   See the beginning of this youtube vid   
 
The shrouds are a pain, so, loads of kicker has to be let out to twist off the sail and, inefficiently, get the sail out square.   
 
By heading up a bit, sure you'll generate more speed but your VMG to the bottom mark will be worse.
 
In Fraser's boat, the kicker will press on the deck and 'tighten' up the leech ; it's not good.    At least with the Contender, the shrouds stop the boom and the kicker can be slackened off to get the twist.
 
If Fraser fixes the kicker at deck level, the boom is free to go out square and the leech tension can be set at whatever is best for control/speed.  Simples.

 

I reckon a less effective vang would leave you with little control over leech tension,
a more important consideration in the breezier locales this design will sail in.

There is plenty of room between the goose neck and deck for a powerful vang to allow vang sheeting.    Fraser's got a chance to sort this out now and eliminate a problem that would piss me right off.  If  I couldn't change this under the class rules, it would stop me buying the boat. 

[fastyacht]

The Shaw has no buoyancy in the wings or sides (the only buoyancy is in the floor and foredeck) so we expect it to sit low when capsized.

 

We will let you know when it capsizes for the first time – it is winter here remember so nobody is keen to test the water temp.

 

Well, it is "Spring" here and we are sailing--in the 14 degree water we have now, all you need is a 2mm full wetsuit. The kids have been out in drysuits since early march when the water was 3 degrees. Go get wet :-)

[fastyacht]

the Vang - well is changing it really worth the effort?  Contenders have sidestays which limit the travel of the boom, I don't see them complaining..

And they're horrible dead down wind in the light stuff.   Lasers go past you.   The vang on the Shaw definitely needs sorting out to allow the boom to square out. 

I would completely agree.  There is simply no reason to have this limitation. OK if you have stays, but there ain't no stays...

[GybeSet®]

the reason is to have an more effective vang is too complement the simple mainsheet/bridle system, and

up down and across the breeze in big air

up down and across the breeze in med air

Of course your'e one point 'of sail' DDW in light air stands,
then they'll let out the vang like a Contender or maybe even your'e own square running 505, which you'll say is OK

Real performance dinghies/skiffs and rigs are not designed around light air U.S.venues
Real performance dinghies/skiffs and rigs are not designed around the 'thrill' of sailing DDW in a drift

maybe the sack like sails on scowbillies boats are, or Stars

I can see this boat ideally sailing triangles in good NZ or AUS breeze, so no big deal there.

[Boatshed]

the reason is to have an more effective vang is too complement the simple mainsheet/bridle system, and

up down and across the breeze in big air

up down and across the breeze in med air

Of course your'e one point 'of sail' DDW in light air stands,
then they'll let out the vang like a Contender or maybe even your'e own square running 505, which you'll say is OK

Real performance dinghies/skiffs and rigs are not designed around light air U.S.venues
Real performance dinghies/skiffs and rigs are not designed around the 'thrill' of sailing DDW in a drift

maybe the sack like sails on scowbillies boats are, or Stars

You don't get it.

 

Look at this pic.  boat 506 has the vang hard on and the boom fully squared out.  The boat nearer has a little less vang and the boom a bit in from square because the upper leech will be squared right off.   It is not a light wind but a decent, cold, dense UK wind.   When going DDW in an RS300 or a Shaw, in a breeze, you will need the vang on tight or very tight depending how brave you are - and the boom square or nearly square.    The way the Shaw vang is rigged right now, you will not be able to free off the boom enough because of the vang and this will spoil the potential of the boat.    It's about going fast DDW in a blow, not the light stuff

 

[GybeSet®]

But do you 'get this'?
All Shaws with the same vangs will be as fast as each other.
Add to that they will be able to vang sheet.

Do you 'get' that your impaired vang proposal won't be able to vang sheet anywhere near as effectively?

[Boatshed]

Do you 'get' that your impaired vang proposal won't be able to vang sheet anywhere near as effectively?

Why ?

[Autograph]

I think it is very difficult to see what angle the vang will limit the boom to, with the current photos.  It would be possible to extend the mast step aft of the foredeck slightly, to allow the boom to square off if required.  Agreed, would not buy the boat in its current set up, but one would hope there will be a few rounds of development before the final configuration is signed off.  The kicker attached low down will save a few wraps of carbon on the mast and boom, and allow more purchase/range, both good things, but the boom should still nearly square off, or it is too big a compromise.

 

Thanks for the contender and 300 footage, enjoyed that.  But made my knees hurt watching it.

[fastyacht]

Change the damn deck line. You can keep the vang attached at the heel. Just get that stylized deck edge swoop the hell out of the way. That's all it needs. I thought this was a prototype. Sheesh.

 

GS your comments are beyond stupid. Why limit a boat stupidly because "it is always perfect in Oz"?

[Boatshed]

Change the damn deck line. You can keep the vang attached at the heel. Just get that stylized deck edge swoop the hell out of the way. That's all it needs. I thought this was a prototype. Sheesh.

Yep, that's a way round it.   Or just attach the vang at deck level.   I'm sure that mast is well strong enough being free standing.   A rough guesstimate shows that this will increase the vang tension by 20 - 25% for the same vertical downward pull.   Add an extra purchase or just pull a bit harder. 

 

Because GS doesn't sail, he won't understand that sailing an una rig dinghy DDW in a blow is a real cloth touching time.   Always on the verge of binning it to windward whilst going as low as possible.   Very tactical as well trying pick up the wind shifts.

 

See these Finns and just check out where the vang attaches to the mast.

 

[BalticBandit]

Autograph - the solution to painful knees downwind is to stand.  Drive the hull as you would a windsurfer and use the sheet the same way.

[Chris 249]

Real performance dinghies/skiffs and rigs are not designed around light air U.S.venues
Real performance dinghies/skiffs and rigs are not designed around the 'thrill' of sailing DDW in a drift
 

 

That's like saying that real performance F1 cars are not designed around Monaco or chicanes.

 

It also leads to the silly situation where supposedly "breakthrough high perfomance" Aussie designs regularly get embarrassed by older northern hemisphere boats.

 

The one-eyed flag waving is embarrassing for the rest of us. We Aussies laugh at Americans or Brits who claim to always be the best, so we shouldn't make ourselves laughing stocks in the same way.

[couchsurfer]

Real performance dinghies/skiffs and rigs are not designed around light air U.S.venues
Real performance dinghies/skiffs and rigs are not designed around the 'thrill' of sailing DDW in a drift
 

 

That's like saying that real performance F1 cars are not designed around Monaco or chicanes.

 

It also leads to the silly situation where supposedly "breakthrough high perfomance" Aussie designs regularly get embarrassed by older northern hemisphere boats.

 

The one-eyed flag waving is embarrassing for the rest of us. We Aussies laugh at Americans or Brits who claim to always be the best, so we shouldn't make ourselves laughing stocks in the same way.

 

...I'd have t'say that the 9er's have been a blessing for NA and it's lighter wind venues!

......49'er design wind,,2 on a trapeze,,is ~10-12 kts!?...........and singlehanding 29ers is fun in even 4!

 

 

 

......the question becomes ....how far are you willing to venture up the wind-scale??

[BalticBandit]

49er design wind is 12-14,  10-12 is 1.5 strings with weight way fwd.  Top end 49ers sail in is high 20s