147 replies to this topic

[Tcatman]

Did you guys bother to actually read the letter where Fran talks about "ongoing efforts to develop faster, more tunable, more durable, and more fun-to-sail boats for the future of college sailing ..."?

So, I'm left wondering how this question is a distraction. I wouldn't have asked it if Fran hadn't stated the above.

fastyacht wrote
College sailing is a fun thing to do while you are in college, period. Sailing isn't a uniform one way sport like soccer. It is a universe. Collegiate sailing is one solar system. And there are a gazillion other suns in the universe. If "everybody" who sails goes through exactly the same pattern then yes, perhaps you don't get a good olympic squad. But frankly that ain't college sailing's fault. Rather it is everyone else's fault--for the gradual disintegration of dinghy racing....

Sailing IS a universe of events and disciplines. ... but there is a hierarchy.. Olympics are a pinnacle... AC is another pinnacle... College Sailing gets support from alumni donors... I suggest that they BELIEVED that college sailing played a key stepping stone to success at the international level and ultimately the Olympics. I doubt they donate because "Its fun for undergrads"...

I hope that the failure at Weymouth and the realization that the solar system of College Sailing is a dead end with respect to the hierarchy within the sailing universe will drive a restructuring of College Sailing. Perhaps the future has donors who now focus on alternative programs because they want to donate and support something bigger.

Jesse Falsone highlighted this quote
Fran talks about "ongoing efforts to develop faster, more tunable, more durable, and more fun-to-sail boats for the future of college sailing

The proper discussion is .... Could College Sailing on faster more tunable, more durable and more fun to sail boats play ANY role in developing elite world class sailors. I am not even sure that this happy outcome would actually get the job done.
YMMV

[fastyacht]

Yes, Olympics are a Pinnacle, and AC, but I would argue that there are a lot of Other Pinnacles, too: Once upon a time, winning the J-24 worlds would be one of the highest honors in the sport. There are ocean races to win, 505 World's, the list goes on. Plenty of people who are at the top of their game and win these events wouldn't do the Olympics, while others did/would.

The college boat choices are certainly in something of a "rut." There is the "cost" problem, and the "repair" problem, and the "performance" problem and the "venue" problem, as well as the "format" problem.

First, let me say that cost will *always* be a problem--and that therefore one needs to be careful not to go down a rabbitholeseeking to minimize it. Rowing is a good example of this. Sure, you could buy a lot of old shells, but then your program has no chance. So you scrounge and work to get fewer, better boats--or the adequate number of boats to satisfy the program.

Take this over to sailing. You could have say, 10 C420, or 12 lasers, or 22 Optimists, or three 505s, or 2 Viper 640s... We seem to be locked into the "price point" of the 420, but it isn't necessarily the correct price point. There are some metrics: dollars per sailor per year; dollars per helmsman per year, dollars per regatta per year, dollars per use etc. Singlehanders give more helming opportunitites per dollar but fewer total sailor ops.

We also have the issue of program size. How many sailors are realistically in a program? How many boats are needed to host a regatta? (There were regattas I sailed in college where only 8 boats were available.)

We have the problem of maintenance and life. The 420 is 1960s technology. So is the laser. There is an inherent problem in fiberglass reinforced polyester: in small boats with thin laminates, it "dies" by going soft. There is no solution to this other than using a different material. Even fiberglass reinforced epoxy is significantly better. Wood, if only it didn't rot, would be best.

The polyester boat is a rabbithole. It is a big reason we are boxed into a corner with respect to performance. Cheap to build, but not long lasting. Cheap up front, but expensive long term. Performance is significantly degraded by building heavier, while the results are still not economically good: the boats still die, albeit more slowly. A more modernised, and yes more expensive construction, would in my opinion cost less long term and allow a higher performance design.

[BLB]

There was serious discussion and even basic design work for a one off/custom collegiate dinghy before the financial crisis/recession.

Design ideas went from something that looked like a highly modified 420, to a best of breed ideas from the 420/FJ/Lark, to a baby Melges 20 or some of the other development class dinghies in Europe or AUS/NZ.

Those plans fell apart with the rest of the economy...

[Mambo Kings]

MIT just sent ODU 24 Wilson balls for their football program and are eagerly looking forward to receieving 24 LP 420s in return.



This way ODU can host the NCCA football championships and MIT can cost the ICSA sailing championships. Its a win:win for both sides.

Negotiators on both sides expressed their appreciation to Mr Clean for mediating the dispute and finding an amicable solution.

[Tcatman]

Yes, Olympics are a Pinnacle, and AC, but I would argue that there are a lot of Other Pinnacles, too: Once upon a time, winning the J-24 worlds would be one of the highest honors in the sport. There are ocean races to win, 505 World's, the list goes on. Plenty of people who are at the top of their game and win these events wouldn't do the Olympics, while others did/would.

The college boat choices are certainly in something of a "rut." There is the "cost" problem, and the "repair" problem, and the "performance" problem and the "venue" problem, as well as the "format" problem.

First, let me say that cost will *always* be a problem--and that therefore one needs to be careful not to go down a rabbitholeseeking to minimize it. Rowing is a good example of this. Sure, you could buy a lot of old shells, but then your program has no chance. So you scrounge and work to get fewer, better boats--or the adequate number of boats to satisfy the program.

Take this over to sailing. You could have say, 10 C420, or 12 lasers, or 22 Optimists, or three 505s, or 2 Viper 640s... We seem to be locked into the "price point" of the 420, but it isn't necessarily the correct price point. There are some metrics: dollars per sailor per year; dollars per helmsman per year, dollars per regatta per year, dollars per use etc. Singlehanders give more helming opportunitites per dollar but fewer total sailor ops.

We also have the issue of program size. How many sailors are realistically in a program? How many boats are needed to host a regatta? (There were regattas I sailed in college where only 8 boats were available.)

We have the problem of maintenance and life. The 420 is 1960s technology. So is the laser. There is an inherent problem in fiberglass reinforced polyester: in small boats with thin laminates, it "dies" by going soft. There is no solution to this other than using a different material. Even fiberglass reinforced epoxy is significantly better. Wood, if only it didn't rot, would be best.

The polyester boat is a rabbithole. It is a big reason we are boxed into a corner with respect to performance. Cheap to build, but not long lasting. Cheap up front, but expensive long term. Performance is significantly degraded by building heavier, while the results are still not economically good: the boats still die, albeit more slowly. A more modernised, and yes more expensive construction, would in my opinion cost less long term and allow a higher performance design.

Re the Sailing Universe... Indeed there are lots of elite world wide events and they are all more similar to one another then to college sailing. College sailing is very unlike the game played world wide in any number of classes. College sailing can remain as it is... However, the notion that college sailing prepares the athletes for world class competition has been shattered.
Will athletic programs and donors continue supporting the sport under this light.

I sympathize with the problem you paint. Changing the structure and format of college racing to align with the mainstream of the sport could make other options viable.

I would think that college sailing MUST find a way to be relevant to the elite nature of international competition for the school's sailing sponsors and the administration to support otherwise they will make irreversible changes.

Does the kind of boat you describe move the ball forward for the up and coming college sailor so that they can compete at the international level.... or is college sailing near perfect as it is?

[Peenstone]

Gee, how incredibly vague and defensive of the ICSA pres. My translation:

I'm the president of the ICSA and using the authority of the by-laws to make all the decisions for boat sponsorship agreements. All you guys complaining on-line are simply wrong. College Sailing sponsorship is just like NCAA football selection; can't you understand that? I will continue to cite the by-laws in defense of my actions in a defensive and elusive way without really discolsing what the agreement says and why I agreed to it.

[samc99us]

Did you guys bother to actually read the letter where Fran talks about "ongoing efforts to develop faster, more tunable, more durable, and more fun-to-sail boats for the future of college sailing ..."?

So, I'm left wondering how this question is a distraction. I wouldn't have asked it if Fran hadn't stated the above.

Jesse,

The unfortunate reality is a higher performance boat has been discussed for the last 10 years in the high school and college sailing regime, but has never come to fruition. I'm pretty much done debating it and have accepted the 420/FJ's aren't going anywhere. I did my 4 years in high school sailing, raced up through the district championship level for 2 years in college sailing and then bought a Nacra 20. My sailing career started on a relatively high performance boat (Hobie 14 is still faster than any non trapeze double handed dinghy I'm aware of) so I was going to move back there eventually, but I wonder how many college sailors have been given the opportunity to sail a HP boat?

The reality is I don't think a more tunable boat is needed. I learned a ton racing FJ's and 420's. The boats suck. But I've raced in more venues for less money in 2 years than I have in the 6 since. To those who say 1,000's of starts and short courses teach nothing, it is clear you have much to learn. I often race with sailors that don't have college sailing backgrounds or have otherwise had 3+ days of on the water coaching FOR FREE for 4 years-it is obvious in their starts, ability to effectively call tactics across all ranges of conditions, and handle the boat at mark roundings. If your fast upwind in a college boat you'll be fast upwind in most other classes, after you sort the rig out. Downwind is another ball of wax.

Offshore, I'd take someone that understands how to tie knots, keep lines running smoothly and most importantly has balls of steel. If they can drive that's just a plus.

-Sam

[JimC]

So, I'm left wondering how this question is a distraction.

Well, you only have to look at how the thread has developed. Instead of an examination of a deal that has some very big question marks about it you have a thread about what sort of boats college sailing should use, which was just a side point of the original. So the result is this thread will get reported back to the execs as
"Was there much dissatisfaction and criticism of the deal and the fact that we have excluded many colleges from holding champs?"
"No, but there was a lot of uninformed wibbling about what sort of boats we should encourage"
"So we can assume that really the world is reasonably happy about this deal"
"Sure looks like it to me: lets carry on as normal"

[Peenstone]

This thread has officially been hijacked.

[Jesse Falsone]

Jim - I get your point. But, in questioning the legitimacy of the deal that has been struck with LP, once might also be inclined to question the boats on offer by them and competing manufacturers. If the future of college sailing holds the desire and possibility of utilizing higher performance boats, but the deal struck with LP locks colleges into low performance boats for an extended time, it's worthy of discussion. The thread, as far as it was advertised by Clean on the front page, was to pose questions of the MIT Sailing Master. I didn't think it was necessarily specific to the details of controvertial letter. Personally, I am interested in his larger philosophy. So, in that vein, I don't see the hijack.

[MR.CLEAN]

Chris Love tackled the story in Chalk Talk. Fast forward to 5:10 for the debate, and props to CLove for taking it on, despite the fact that, as the producer of the live college racing vid, he will be the primary beneficiary of the money from LP for the deal.

[MR.CLEAN]

So, I'm left wondering how this question is a distraction.

Well, you only have to look at how the thread has developed. Instead of an examination of a deal that has some very big question marks about it you have a thread about what sort of boats college sailing should use, which was just a side point of the original. So the result is this thread will get reported back to the execs as
"Was there much dissatisfaction and criticism of the deal and the fact that we have excluded many colleges from holding champs?"
"No, but there was a lot of uninformed wibbling about what sort of boats we should encourage"
"So we can assume that really the world is reasonably happy about this deal"
"Sure looks like it to me: lets carry on as normal"

Doesn't matter how the thread devolves; I am using it for background to develop my conversation with Fran when we get around to it. Hijack away, or whatever.

[MR.CLEAN]

Love and some others have continuously harped on the 'media dollars' that the LP deal would bring to the sport. We don't know what that means, so a couple of thoughts:

Let's say the LP deal will provide two regattas' worth of live video coverage and interviews from Love (college nationals and one of the semis), which, if they are of his usual quality and reach, will be watchable for those that are college sailors or have kids sailing the events, but otherwise won't get any real attention because the racing is dull and the coverage pretty crap.

Love probably gets somewhere around 5 grand for a regatta plus maybe a few expenses; that's around what I would charge if I was doing it with just a two man crew with one or two cameras and no live onboard video or audio. Then they hopefully (but I won't be surprised if they somehow forgot) included 3 or 4 grand for real photography and PR services, because without those, you can't really promote what you're doing. So the LP deal probably puts 10 or 15 grand into the media program, but no one has said that it does anything beyond that at all besides supplying Lasers for the singlehanded championships as they've done for years.

Does anyone think the ICSA Exec would give LP a monopoly on college sailing boats for 8 years in exchange for 10 or 15 grand a year? Hopefully not. But if the LP deal actually pays for a full season of video coverage, meaning 30 or 40 grand worth for a couple dozen events, at least the ICSA isn't selling themselves as short as the first scenario. Unfortunately, even if they spent that much, they'd still need to spend another 10 or 15 grand a year to promote and activate it, without which it ain't gonna change a thing anyways. That's ignoring the fact that we don't know if the ICSA has actually secured bids for video coverage from the more proven video producers with a large audience, showing that they actually want to see the media thing succeed; CLove's track record is pretty weak at retaining and growing an audience.

[MR.CLEAN]

Statement from ICSA Exec Board to Chalk Talk:

Attached Files

•  Screen Shot 2012-09-27 at 12.17.15 PM.png   43.94K   107 downloads
•  Screen Shot 2012-09-27 at 12.17.03 PM.png   119.46K   108 downloads

[MR.CLEAN]

Just to clarify: I don't really see Chris Love as some kind of scammer in this deal: He is genuinely passionate about college sailing and wants to see it grow, he just lacks the personality, experience, and subject matter to make his coverage really take off in my opinion.

[Tcatman]

So..... 8 years for a videographer for college nationals..... (set aside the costs)

How much do you value a videographer for sailing....(aside from mom and dad)?

Do people really believe that video of College Sailing NAs will grow fans of the sport of sailing and /or college sailing? How do you think this works? You need Fans.... The AC guys are struggling to grow fans.... College Sailing is the ticket??

Just saw Clean's analysis of the video.... I completely agree!

[mob_rules]

I'm a dad of a college sailor and my son knew going in it was a dumbed down system. He still wants to sail and travels quite a bit. Biggest thing is that he is in college to get diploma, sailing is extra. He enjoys the competition and friends he makes but its just sailing. He had raced keel, multi and dinghy prior to college racing and he's fine with what he races now in college.

Regarding the coverage deal, I don't sit and watch sailing in person, so why would I care if video is availible. Watching boat racing is boring, being of the water sailing or racing is what the sport is about.

Back when the sport was in better days, there was no video coverage and yet people raced in high numbers. Kinda makes me wonder if y'all don't have your priorities out of order.

[MR.CLEAN]

So..... 8 years for a videographer for college nationals..... (set aside the costs)

How much do you value a videographer for sailing....(aside from mom and dad)?

Do people really believe that video of College Sailing NAs will grow fans of the sport of sailing and /or college sailing? How do you think this works? You need Fans.... The AC guys are struggling to grow fans.... College Sailing is the ticket??

Just saw Clean's analysis of the video.... I completely agree!

You really can't argue that good coverage and promotion introduces new people to something, regardless of what it is. I have had dozens of people come up to me and tell me they got into Moths, Melgi, and other boats directly because of OTWA coverage of them, college sailing should be no different. I didn't even know there was such thing as college sailing when I was in school, and with the availability of far cheaper ways to get the word out today, you really can reach shit tons of people if you do something interesting online.

[MR.CLEAN]

Found in my inbox-

LaserPerformance would like to take this opportunity to add to Mitch Brindley’s response to Franny’s unfortunate and misleading letter.

LaserPerformance has been a supporter and partner of Collegiate racing since 1976. The new contract extends and expands the sponsorship of the ICSA programs. LaserPerformance has nothing to hide and should the ICSA decide that the contract is not in the best interest of its members, we would be happy to still continue our support for Collegiate sailing by providing the 36 Laser or Laser Radials to the ICSA at our own expense.

LaserPerformance support of college sailing goes well beyond our contractual obligations. We have and we will continue to support college sailing directly and indirectly by, for instance dedicating exclusive and full time staff to college sailing, outstanding operations support as well as focusing our marketing resources on the growth of college sailing. This has a significant cost attached for LaserPerformance, one that is equal to millions of dollars over the 7 years of the contract.

LaserPerformance has also committed itself to college sailing by investing heavily in the next generation of the 420 as reported on Sail 1 Design’s Airwaves. This new boat has been designed after consultation with collegiate sailors, coaches (including Zack Leonard, Bill Healey, Bill Ward, Adam Werblow, Greg Wilkinson, David Thompson, Mitch Brindley and many more), boat designers led by Naval Architect Peter Levesque and the latest sailing trends in both design and equipment. As a result our new 420 addresses issues such as the ability to adjust and tune the rig and sails, maneuverability, crew weight, performance, durability and safety. Early results from our plant in Portsmouth, RI indicate we will be able to reduce the overall weight of the boat significantly more than previously reported by Adam Werblow on Airwaves. Other impressive results indicate that we should be able to maintain our current base price while offering a product that is far superior to anything on the market today. Stay tuned for announcements in regard to our demonstration program and schedule that begins before the end of the 2012 Fall Sailing Season.

-LaserPerformance North America

[Left Hook]

Plot twist!!

For the record, a boat with more control over rig & sails fixes many of my problems with college sailing. I like this new direction.

[NorCalLaser]

Plot twist!!

For the record, a boat with more control over rig & sails fixes many of my problems with college sailing. I like this new direction.

We'll let the record reflect that. Just curious, did you sail in college?

[Peenstone]

Plot twist!!

For the record, a boat with more control over rig & sails fixes many of my problems with college sailing. I like this new direction.

We'll let the record reflect that. Just curious, did you sail in college?

+1

[Bill's Sock Puppet]

Plot twist!!

For the record, a boat with more control over rig & sails fixes many of my problems with college sailing. I like this new direction.

We'll let the record reflect that. Just curious, did you sail in college?

oh, come on now, don't embarrass the kid

[sunseeker]

Found in my inbox-

LaserPerformance would like to take this opportunity to add to Mitch Brindley’s response to Franny’s unfortunate and misleading letter.

LaserPerformance has been a supporter and partner of Collegiate racing since 1976. The new contract extends and expands the sponsorship of the ICSA programs. LaserPerformance has nothing to hide and should the ICSA decide that the contract is not in the best interest of its members, we would be happy to still continue our support for Collegiate sailing by providing the 36 Laser or Laser Radials to the ICSA at our own expense.

LaserPerformance support of college sailing goes well beyond our contractual obligations. We have and we will continue to support college sailing directly and indirectly by, for instance dedicating exclusive and full time staff to college sailing, outstanding operations support as well as focusing our marketing resources on the growth of college sailing. This has a significant cost attached for LaserPerformance, one that is equal to millions of dollars over the 7 years of the contract.

LaserPerformance has also committed itself to college sailing by investing heavily in the next generation of the 420 as reported on Sail 1 Design’s Airwaves. This new boat has been designed after consultation with collegiate sailors, coaches (including Zack Leonard, Bill Healey, Bill Ward, Adam Werblow, Greg Wilkinson, David Thompson, Mitch Brindley and many more), boat designers led by Naval Architect Peter Levesque and the latest sailing trends in both design and equipment. As a result our new 420 addresses issues such as the ability to adjust and tune the rig and sails, maneuverability, crew weight, performance, durability and safety. Early results from our plant in Portsmouth, RI indicate we will be able to reduce the overall weight of the boat significantly more than previously reported by Adam Werblow on Airwaves. Other impressive results indicate that we should be able to maintain our current base price while offering a product that is far superior to anything on the market today. Stay tuned for announcements in regard to our demonstration program and schedule that begins before the end of the 2012 Fall Sailing Season.

-LaserPerformance North America

Well aren't they all that? What a load of condesending crap.

They completely avoid the core topic(s), and put the ball in the court of those who want to try and get the contract invalidated.

The sport would be better off if LP went out of business.

[JimC]

The sport would be better off if LP went out of business.

Unfortunately it appears that stuff like the trademarks seems to have been transferred into a maze of shell companies and offshore vehicles, so if that's true then even if LP go bust it wouldn't be possible to recover the business from the administrators. From this distance it appears that all that would happen is that a new company, quite possibly with similar ownership would appear as a successor, trading in much the same way but without the debts. Of course I could be completely wrong, I understand very little about this corporate finance stuff. Hence the sport *wouldn't* be better off if LP went bust.

[Hwyl]

It would be cool if a new manufacturer and a new design emerged from all this. I think the carbon Tech dinghies are a little silly, but it's proof that MIT can get boats produced.

[HeavilyDoctoredSailor]

MIT just sent ODU 24 Wilson balls for their football program and are eagerly looking forward to receieving 24 LP 420s in return.



This way ODU can host the NCCA football championships and MIT can cost the ICSA sailing championships. Its a win:win for both sides.

Negotiators on both sides expressed their appreciation to Mr Clean for mediating the dispute and finding an amicable solution.

Awesome!

[Sail_FAU]

It would be cool if a new manufacturer and a new design emerged from all this. I think the carbon Tech dinghies are a little silly, but it's proof that MIT can get boats produced.

Just a quick clarification- the new Tech dinghies at MIT are sandwich construction with carbon inner skin, core, and then glass outer skin. The carbon inner skin helps with impact resistance, and significantly lightens the boat. The new Gen7 Techs are around 100 pounds lighter than the previous generation, but interestingly only around 10 pounds lighter than the original Techs built by the Herreshoffs. The new generation is very lively to sail, comes out of capsizes much dryer, and has reef points in the sail for use in strong breeze. The boats also have cassette style rudders which share a blade with the fireflies.

-Jeff Dusek
MITNA Commodore

[Jesse Falsone]

That's cool about the Techs. The original hot molded ICs were also much lighter than the original glass O'Day ICs that followed. So, you end up with a boat that is more fun to sail, less crew weight-sensitive, and safer. So, why not take this same philosophy to the 420's? Add a tapered spar and maybe realistic foils, and 30 sq ft more sail area? Oops. There i go again.

[fastyacht]

That's cool about the Techs. The original hot molded ICs were also much lighter than the original glass O'Day ICs that followed. So, you end up with a boat that is more fun to sail, less crew weight-sensitive, and safer. So, why not take this same philosophy to the 420's? Add a tapered spar and maybe realistic foils, and 30 sq ft more sail area? Oops. There i go again.

And note that once again wood proves to be the superior material, if only it didn't rot and need paint ... darn it.

On the subject of the sponsorship, I am curious what the Laser Performance balance sheet says about it? Generally companies are not generous at all--it must meet the bottom line. By influencing the choice of boats for the nationals, they automatically influence the purchasing choices of any school with any interest in being a host. That is what Franny was getting at. Obviously the "generosity" provided by LP comes back to them as profit in all the additional boat sales.

Companies have a profit motive--I understand that. And the Intercollegiate sailing clubs have little money. But obviously a lot of them do have money--or there wouldn't be this situation.

It seems like a long term versus short term problem. In the short term, the College system as a whole gets some "free stuff." Long term, they get constrained in equipment choice and ultimately price.

[bruno]

So..... 8 years for a videographer for college nationals..... (set aside the costs)

How much do you value a videographer for sailing....(aside from mom and dad)?

Do people really believe that video of College Sailing NAs will grow fans of the sport of sailing and /or college sailing? How do you think this works? You need Fans.... The AC guys are struggling to grow fans.... College Sailing is the ticket??

Just saw Clean's analysis of the video.... I completely agree!

You really can't argue that good coverage and promotion introduces new people to something, regardless of what it is. I have had dozens of people come up to me and tell me they got into Moths, Melgi, and other boats directly because of OTWA coverage of them, college sailing should be no different. I didn't even know there was such thing as college sailing when I was in school, and with the availability of far cheaper ways to get the word out today, you really can reach shit tons of people if you do something interesting online.

1. 505s for collegiate round robin sailing. Sure, like you want to lend your expensive semi-custom racing machine to a crew that has never sailed one so they can experience close short course racing with other non-owners. Yes, this is a digression.
2. Exclusive deal with LP. LP is not responsive to their Laser customer base's needs, the association is NG, the benefits minimal, LP probably builds more junior boats annually out of the Vanguard molds than Lasers, so most of the benefit accrues to their side as monopoly supplier, and it reduces choice for ICSA members. On balance not a good deal.
3. Reputed benefit of live coverage. Presented as a manichaen option, have or have not, instead why couldn't ICSA (if they really thought it was crit) turn it into a donor funded student project. Design and run a live coverage program for your senior media project, hit up well heeled alums, done. Given that watching slow boats foul each other, take penalties, and go to the room is an abstruse enjoyment the likelihood of this greatly expanding participation is low. BTW, do college sailing programs really need more sailors? So low value for this benefit.
4. "New" 420 design. So LP designs and builds a couple of new interior part molds and upgrades the laminate schedule to improve their product offering in the face of increased competition, this deserves the reward of monopoly supplier? BFD, known as re-investment in a maturing product in business, normal. "Adjustable rig", etc., you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, boatspeed doesn't matter that much on a 200 m. course anyway, point helps, sailing well helps more, not breaking down helps the most. I think that Rondars upgrading of the Firefly is much more significant from a product offering standpoint and will help US/Can. teams who go to UK for team racing. Lame claim.

So if I was the executive tasked with this deal I would reject it, most would unless they were stupid or had a hidden agenda.

[mustang__1]

LP can flaunt all they want about providing free lasers and how great they are for doing that....they still sell them after the event as 1-event old charter boats...

[mob_rules]

Seems to be plenty of quality college sailors and the boats aren't keeping them from competing. Fran from MIT just wanted a shit fight because he didn't get his way ,so now he has one. Wonder how well that's working out? I'm sure the sharp minds here in this forum will once again solve one of the serious problems in sailing or die trying. Brings tears to these eyes.

Charge on! This thread should be subtitled "mountains out of mole hills"

[SC Finnster]

That's cool about the Techs. The original hot molded ICs were also much lighter than the original glass O'Day ICs that followed. So, you end up with a boat that is more fun to sail, less crew weight-sensitive, and safer. So, why not take this same philosophy to the 420's? Add a tapered spar and maybe realistic foils, and 30 sq ft more sail area? Oops. There i go again.

Please explain how a lighter boat is less crew weight sensitive.

[NorCalLaser]

for reference, whats the current health of college sailing in terms of participation trends the last say, 5 years? both on a number of teams basis and on a number of sailors basis

[Hwyl]

Seems to be plenty of quality college sailors and the boats aren't keeping them from competing. Fran from MIT just wanted a shit fight because he didn't get his way ,so now he has one. Wonder how well that's working out? I'm sure the sharp minds here in this forum will once again solve one of the serious problems in sailing or die trying. Brings tears to these eyes.

Charge on! This thread should be subtitled "mountains out of mole hills"

True Fran picked a shit fight, but I think he is representing college kids. I think he can fight this shit and win.

[mustang__1]

i think fran's interests are much reasonable than LP's interests...

[Jesse Falsone]

1. 505s for collegiate round robin sailing. Sure, like you want to lend your expensive semi-custom racing machine to a crew that has never sailed one so they can experience close short course racing with other non-owners. Yes, this is a digression.

I didn't think anyone here suggested that 505's were a good choice for collegiate sailing. At least I didn't suggest that, but someone people see what they want in a post.

Please explain how a lighter boat is less crew weight sensitive.

I suppose this deserves an explanation. Here's my hypothesis. 100 pounds is a lot of weight to lose for a hull the size of a Tech. Not sure what the original weight was, but I would imagine someone just over 200 pounds for the hull. So, the new weight is likely somewhere just over 100. Round bottom boats like the Tech, IC, and even Thistle are more foregiving of crew weight differences insofar as resistance is concerned (not righting moment) as compared with flat bottom boats because the change in wetted surface is less as crew weight increases. A good example of this are the relative speeds of an IC and a Laser in light air. Even though the Laser has quite a bit less weight (like half all up with crew), the speeds are actually not too different since the Laser has more wetted surface (SA is the same). But, with round bottom dinghies like the Tech, there's a point which the boat becomes oppressively heavy and slow with additional crew weight, and that limit is reached sooner with a high hull weight. The lighter hull, being round, is better equipped to handle a broader range of crew weight without reaching the point of no competitive return. The exception to this might be in lighter, puffy conditions where accelerations are critical rather that just steady speed. I'm sure all this BS can be proven/disproven anecdotally on the race course.

[Mambo Kings]

So, I'm going to make a more serious contribution than my last post.

I know both Franny and Mitch. Both of them are dedicated to college sailing. Both of them are incredibly good guys.

Mitch: LP has offered in writing to step away from the contract without any malice (See Clean's inbox above). This provides a chance for all parties to take a time out, take a deep breath and calmly review the options in a collaborative manner. Seize that opportunity! Conduct a review of sponsorship options, get some additional advice and input on how to raise sponsorship dollars (lots of help available, ) and get inclusive buy in from the key players in your organization.

Franny: You are a meister of fund raising. There are dozens of sponsors who would crave college media coverage. The most sought after sponsorship opportunities are when a sponsor is offered the chance to provide the media coverage. This is what ICSA has to offer. Someone will be prepared to pay good bucks for that. I think it would be great if you offered your talents,time and connections to sit on a task force charged with finding a sponsor that doesn't create a conflict of interest with regard to equipment.

Here is the common ground:

1. ICSA wants to grow its sponsorship heft in order to provide more and better media coverage. Universally agreed to be a good thing.
2. Sponsors need and deserve an ROI on the sponsorship dollars. We want to say thank you to sponsors and they deserve to see a return on their investment.
3. Laser-Perfomance has a long standing relationship with college sailing and has been very supportive over the years and wishes to remain supportive. Whether or not they become the media sponsor, they will conitinue with this support. "LaserPerformance has nothing to hide and should the ICSA decide that the contract is not in the best interest of its members, we would be happy to still continue our support for Collegiate sailing by providing the 36 Laser or Laser Radials to the ICSA at our own expense.LaserPerformance support of college sailing goes well beyond our contractual obligations. We have and we will continue to support college sailing directly and indirectly by, for instance dedicating exclusive and full time staff to college sailing, outstanding operations support as well as focusing our marketing resources on the growth of college sailing " Thus if there is another sponsorship option for media, it is highly desirable that this is not a brand conflict with LP.
4. Everyone would prefer a media sponsorship deal which would not restrict college's choice of equipment or sailmaker.
5. There are at least two new builders of scholastic and college dinghies in the US who invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to supply the collefgiate market. Ethically, I dont think the ICSA wants to discourage them. Legally, this deal opens a pandora's box in terms of obstructing trade.

It seems to me that the ICSA should at least look for an alternate media sponsor that does not create the equipment conflict of interest, but continue to give prominent recognition to LP's existing contribution .

There are a few basic rules of sponsorship ( I have raised a substantial 6 figure sums of sponsorship for sailing). Two of them include. 1) Make sure that the sponsor gets a great deal and a real ROI 2) Avoid creating a conflict of interest that negatively impacts the event.

College sailing media would be very attractive to sponsors outside of the sailing trade and they usually have bigger budgets than boat builders. Just for example, there are many studies that show that the most important time for a bank to secure a deposit customer is while they are at college. Tie that together with some demographic information about college sailors and their families.....you will come up with some ideas.

Many of those ideas will be a big positive for LP. College sailing and LP products will get a lot more publicity and it wont cost LP a dime. Thye can continue with their existing support and not have the odium of being seen to try and get a monopoly.

Thanks for listening

VMK

[bruno]

JF: for the record, I think that the suggestion to have an annual HP champs, like they do with keelboats is a good one.

[Hwyl]

So, I'm going to make a more serious contribution than my last post.

I know both Franny and Mitch. Both of them are dedicated to college sailing. Both of them are incredibly good guys.

Mitch: LP has offered in writing to step away from the contract without any malice (See Clean's inbox above). This provides a chance for all parties to take a time out, take a deep breath and calmly review the options in a collaborative manner. Seize that opportunity! Conduct a review of sponsorship options, get some additional advice and input on how to raise sponsorship dollars (lots of help available, ) and get inclusive buy in from the key players in your organization.

Franny: You are a meister of fund raising. There are dozens of sponsors who would crave college media coverage. The most sought after sponsorship opportunities are when a sponsor is offered the chance to provide the media coverage. This is what ICSA has to offer. Someone will be prepared to pay good bucks for that. I think it would be great if you offered your talents,time and connections to sit on a task force charged with finding a sponsor that doesn't create a conflict of interest with regard to equipment.

Here is the common ground:

1. ICSA wants to grow its sponsorship heft in order to provide more and better media coverage. Universally agreed to be a good thing.
2. Sponsors need and deserve an ROI on the sponsorship dollars. We want to say thank you to sponsors and they deserve to see a return on their investment.
3. Laser-Perfomance has a long standing relationship with college sailing and has been very supportive over the years and wishes to remain supportive. Whether or not they become the media sponsor, they will conitinue with this support. "LaserPerformance has nothing to hide and should the ICSA decide that the contract is not in the best interest of its members, we would be happy to still continue our support for Collegiate sailing by providing the 36 Laser or Laser Radials to the ICSA at our own expense.LaserPerformance support of college sailing goes well beyond our contractual obligations. We have and we will continue to support college sailing directly and indirectly by, for instance dedicating exclusive and full time staff to college sailing, outstanding operations support as well as focusing our marketing resources on the growth of college sailing " Thus if there is another sponsorship option for media, it is highly desirable that this is not a brand conflict with LP.
4. Everyone would prefer a media sponsorship deal which would not restrict college's choice of equipment or sailmaker.
5. There are at least two new builders of scholastic and college dinghies in the US who invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to supply the collefgiate market. Ethically, I dont think the ICSA wants to discourage them. Legally, this deal opens a pandora's box in terms of obstructing trade.

It seems to me that the ICSA should at least look for an alternate media sponsor that does not create the equipment conflict of interest, but continue to give prominent recognition to LP's existing contribution .

There are a few basic rules of sponsorship ( I have raised a substantial 6 figure sums of sponsorship for sailing). Two of them include. 1) Make sure that the sponsor gets a great deal and a real ROI 2) Avoid creating a conflict of interest that negatively impacts the event.

College sailing media would be very attractive to sponsors outside of the sailing trade and they usually have bigger budgets than boat builders. Just for example, there are many studies that show that the most important time for a bank to secure a deposit customer is while they are at college. Tie that together with some demographic information about college sailors and their families.....you will come up with some ideas.

Many of those ideas will be a big positive for LP. College sailing and LP products will get a lot more publicity and it wont cost LP a dime. Thye can continue with their existing support and not have the odium of being seen to try and get a monopoly.

Thanks for listening

VMK

What a great post, that indeed would be the best case scenario.

[Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit]

I just don't get the chase after media exposure. How many times do we have to beat that horse to understand that televised sailboat racing in the U.S. is a waste of sponsorship dollars? If the AC, VOR and Olympics can't get traction who is going to watch a bunch of teenagers in seven minute long WL's? I doubt I would even watch it.

[mustang__1]

i dont even watch the AC45 stuff. i did watch the LV pacific series stuff way back when, as well as the olympic racing this summer (mostly the 49er's though, the other classes were more sporadic unless it was their finals or breeze-on).

[CollegeAnarchist]

Awful decision!

Presumably, MB had a majority of the Board support his decision???

Or is this another outbreak of the U Virginia rectoral disease?

Think you meant ODU

[CollegeAnarchist]

I'll bet that the NCAA foorball champinship has never had to pay for a ball, Wilson supplies it and then uses the NCAA logo on the ball it sells to the general public. This sponsorship should have focused around LP (or another supplier) providing boats for the championships.
As far as a higher performance dinghy...use the 420/FJ for team racing and training only, encourage teams to buy a higher performance dinghy for the 2 handed championships,

Teams work very hard to buy 18-20 420s/FJs, it's a $140K-ish commitment. Upping the ante to 470s or something is unlikely due to the need of the college kids to occasionally crack a book and skip flip cup, and the small group of alumni per school that have been poorly tracked, doubling, tripling or quadrupling the cost of a fleet would overwhelm them. Wisconsin and Michigan had 470s in the 70's and those boats had the crap kicked out of them. Magic boxes and college sailing=destruction. The turnover in college sailing is very high. Very few schools have a coach. Records are dreadful. It's nothing like the machines of college football and basketball. With this hullaballoo, though, maybe the schools will start to talk up getting a higher performance dinghy, 1 per school, and trail it to events themselves. Sure as heck won't be able to buy such craft from LP--getting any kind of boat out of them right now is a pretty tough thing to do unless you can write a check now and are willing to wait. Hopefully some of the college kids will get fired up and actually GO to the college sailing annual meeting.

[CollegeAnarchist]

Does that mean college sailors will use LP Club 420's with spinnakers and traps?

Unlikely

Nope.

['moondance44]

wowza. i havent seen that kind of pompous attitude mixed with unmitigated abject stupidity in a lonnng time.

Post of the year addressing a kid who cant tell 20 knots from 40, But I really cant tell if you were addressing LH or Mr CLean,.

What a bunch of blowhards and ignorant sluts. The skipper or watch captain turns the dinghy sailor into the guy or gal you want on your watch
at 0200 in a gale. And if that can happen its known in pretty short order wether they have the legs or not. .

Ive been turning 'dinghy sailors' into "offshore sailors', for more years then LH has been alive. My own kids and others.
One of whom had his first few offfshore racees on Moondance coming out of a 420. Then moved on to Morning Light and now
sails on whatever circuit he wants to. Any of the URI kids I sailed with this weekend could be trusted 'in a gale' What nonsense from a kid who/s
been almost offshore once on a boat full of pro nannys watching him. C'mon man!

[Bob Adam]

Earlier this fall, the NEISA Executive Committee approved a directive that has forced the ICSA President to convene a special meeting of the ICSA Board of Directors to discuss the sponsorship contract with LaserPerformance (LP) and the manner in which it was negotiated. Notice of this meeting was sent out to the NEISA list serve on December 4th. The meeting is scheduled for tomorrow December 11th.



It has been offered that the new sponsorship agreement mandates the use of LP brand boats in the spring semifinal and championship regattas and that this constitutes a 'change in conditions' for ICSA championship. This means that a host venue that does not have LP brand boats can't host these events. Each of the schools affected (MIT, Fordham, Columbia, SUNY Maritime) have been sent a direct email from the President of the ICSA stating this.



It does not seem apparent that all regional conferences have received public notice of the upcoming meeting. Zim Sailing would urge those that have an opinion on the matter to send an email as such to their respective board members (http://collegesailing.org/contacts/) in advance of this meeting so each board member can act in the best interests of their representative conference.



Although the specifics of the agreement are confidential, the ICSA have shared the following salient points:

· LP will provide ICSA with fleets of new Lasers and Radials for the Singlehanded Championships

· LP will provide a cash contribution to ICSA

· LP will provide media support (i.e. video coverage)

· LP will now be the Official Boat Supplier for all of ICSA championships (including semifinals) except for match race. This new agreement requires all of these championships be held in LP or Vanguard built fleets of boats.

· The agreement is for eight years



There has been some opinion exchanged via the Sailing Anarchy (http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=139886&hl=%20college%20%20sailing&st=) Sailing Scuttlebutt (http://forum.sailingscuttlebutt.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=14539) as well as the Sail1Design Airwaves ( http://www.sail1design.com/airwaves/high-school-college-news/971-controversy-in-the-icsa-the-future-of-the-college-sailing-dinghy) forums.



Of interest is LP's response offering the following:

“LaserPerformance has nothing to hide and should the ICSA decide that the contract is not in the best interest of its members, we would be happy to still continue our support for Collegiate sailing by providing the 36 Laser or Laser Radials to the ICSA at our own expense.”



Obviously Zim Sailing is in not in favor of this agreement. While the intent may not have been to create a monopoly, it certainly has. We believe the ICSA has a great opportunity to rescind the agreement as LP has offered to do. Singlehanded’s would still be supplied boats and Double handed hosts would be free to buy and use whichever equipment met their needs the best. The media coverage could be easily sought by another sponsor. College sailing offers a fantastic demographic to many large companies with “real” marketing dollars. I believe energy drink companies, bank and insurance companies would be very attracted to the college sailing market.

Zim Sailing has worked very hard to support our growing customer base by building high quality durable boats and having the replacement parts needed to serve our customers. If there is an opportunity to further support college sailing we are eager to participate. The ICSA is your representative body, please ensure they have your thoughts and feelings in mind as they act on your behalf.