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Pogo 2 or Tip Top ?

Which is better

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#1 jetfuel

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:36 PM

which is better?

#2 jetfuel

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:40 PM

which is better?

forgot to add the Zero into the equation

#3 ctutmark

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 02:17 AM

For what purpose?

#4 jetfuel

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:12 PM

Some long distance racing but probably not the Mini circuit
LO 300 , Mac, various 100 mile races on the Great Lakea

#5 BobJ

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 02:57 PM

It's at the high end price-wise but I'd look at the 2011 P2 in New York. I inspected Open Sailing's P2 for the SH TransPac - the boat was well made and beautifully finished. The interior was comfortable (for a Mini) and the P2's have certainly proven themselves, even against many of the protos.

Most Mini programs are run on a shoe string; with most of the used boats out there I'd be concerned about inheriting someone else's problems.

#6 sharkbait

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:02 PM

They are both great boats.

I picked a TipTop over the Pogo for various reasons that I think I wrote about once (cockpit, tiller arrangement, companion way, and a few other bits). But of course, you cannot argue with the Pogo2's results in Europe. It is by far the most popular boat there and typically comes in at the top.

As for series minis in the US, there are only a handful of them and they are all quite new and lightly used, so I don't think you can get into too much trouble with any one of them.

Christian

#7 sharkbait

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:26 PM

I should note that I have not sailed on a Pogo2 so my opinion on the matter might not be worth a lot ....

#8 lelou

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:31 AM

I have sailed on a Pogo and next to a Zero for hours. The Pogo 2 have been sold to better sailors, who had better sails made for them. There are so many Pogo 2, it's the one design vituous circle. The speed difference is probably smaller than what the overwhelming results show. The companion way of the Zero is nicer, the boat is probably more "beginner friendly". I'd take either - the one closest - better equipped for the same price...

#9 LeoV

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 05:42 PM

Lelou, very good conclusion: P2 had many good sailors making people think it was the fastest.
But I had one client who for years made statistics, and then the P2 and Zero was even, but Zero very small database, unexperienced sailors.
For the Med, the Ginto was high in statistics.(7 yrs ago) (Tiptop was not around then)

I did build 30 Zero's and had access to a P2 for months as comparison. Sailed on Ginto, Pogo1, Dingo.
P2, in the beam winds, a tiny bit faster on a very specific course, due to genua to jib switch and the italian rigging of the Zero.
So never chase a P2 on that specific course, just sail a bit deeper or higher taking into account the weatherforecast.
In the really light the Zero was faster, mostly due to keel design. (it even stunned protos in the real real light in the hands of Elaine Chua who was in her learning stage :) )

So its up to sailor skill, not the boat, in longer races.

I know that the boatnumbers I did build are very equal in build weight, between 530 to 650 nrs (and some newer ask the build company, FastZero after 530 and MOS composites.
The boats that have done the transatlantic 2 times or more, forget them, owners have probably tinkered way to much. (just a general rule, you can find good ones, but you need to know your stuff).
And some P2 have been professional faired at a huge huge cost, if you can find one of them, its a bonus.
Tiptop, no opinion, as I had a run in with the owner of the first yard, so can not be independent...

#10 jetfuel

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:23 PM

The closest to me is a 2008 Zero
Any opinions?

#11 Open Sailing

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:40 PM

We are going to have several Pogo 2 and 2 Zeros participating to the Mini Transpac summer 2013. One Zero upgraded for a carbon mast, boom and bowsprit, which might make a difference...It is going to be fun to see how they perform during practice (winter and spring). I also believe that all production minis are fairly equal in speed and that if the sailor knows his/her boat and have some experience, this is the 0.5 extra knot that will put you ahead.
For long distance offshore races, it is an endurance factor. The sailors make the difference. If you go to sleep while someone else (regarding of the boat) stays up and steer, you will stay behind. There's no secret.
The Pogo 2 had some great sailors to race and it definitely helped getting more boats out, but remember that the Pogo 2 won its first Mini Transat the same year it came out. If the sailor was good, it still proved that the boat design was perfect. It was in 2003. Since then the Pogo 2 has been on every podium, with more first place than any other production minis. Now, regardless of the sailors and racers, 120 boats have been built. Again, that is a higher number than any other Minis. Lots of them never raced. That is also a fact about Mini Transat 6.50 boats: if you can cross oceans singlehanded on these boats, you can also just use them as day sailor or pocket cruisers. All minis have plenty of room on deck and plenty of volume down below for a small family (or close friends) to have fun.

Mini Sailing is not all about racing and comparing all boats doesn't bring much.

I believe that what's important nowadays is resale value. Unfortunately, when you buy a boat, you have to consider how much you are ready to loose. I am sure you all do the same when buying a vehicle. If you buy a proto, you will never see your money back, if any...Buying a production (aka series) Mini, you will get more out of the boat and resale it better. The way I see it, is that a BMW has a better resale value than a Nissan for example (no offense to anyone). The Pogo 2, in the small world of Mini sailing, definitely has a better resale value than other production minis, even if we agree that it is not "that much different" than other Minis.

In the USA, the fleet is small but growing (finally). The demand for pre-owned boats will grow as well which is good for any Mini owners (proto, series). What matters is to get out and have fun. This is why we are organizing a race this summer 2013 for Minis only. Who knows what will happen in 2014. I can only tell you that there will be another fleet race, just not sure where yet ;-)

Cheers

Jerome
Pogo 2 Builder - Worldwide
First Mini Transat 6.50 to race to Hawaii Singlehanded ;-)

#12 jetfuel

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:49 PM

Thanks for all the input
Selling my Figaro so you may see me out there soon on a Mini of some kind

#13 sharkbait

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:32 PM

I just hope on of the two P2s in the Newport area will come out and play for the B12. With a little bit of luck we could have one or more P2s, one P1, one or more Zeros, and one or two TipTops as well.

That would be quite a change from the first two races where we primarily had prototype boats.

#14 Marvin

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:31 PM

Jetfuel

The closest to me is a 2008 Zero
Any opinions?

Is that Nathan's boat #680 in Kingston?... Nice boat! I seriously considered buying Andy Abel's Zero #670 when it was for sale in Florida in couple years ago; I procrastinated too long and it got sold.
Diane Reid's Mini in Toronto is also a Zero (#655) http://www.onegirlsoceanchallenge.com/ She could provide some insight...

#15 LeoV

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:59 PM

I think I did build (supervised at that stage) Nathans boat, is a good one. (you can ask for racenr years later, so ask if MOS composites in Palamos was the builder)

Jerome, your story is true and tells a lot.
But that the p2 won in its first yrs its class was not a surprise, that boat was trained on a lot, and tricked out. It was a very good marketing trick. Company supported, best sailmaker (very important) and very light, around 150 kg lighter then the competition at the time. Which was dominantly the P1 from the same yard and some older designs. It was a boat that had an advantage of 10 yrs of development with regards to competition. (which were mostly adventure sailors having fun and some even smoking pot across the Atlantic, with a very small group of racing guys)
Was a very good tactic, and did boast the yard Structures to what it is now.

But as one sailor who sailed a lot on both, I would be happy on either one :)

#16 jetfuel

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:43 PM

yeah its Nathans boat. Been on Dianne's but didnt realize they were the same.

#17 LeoV

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:32 PM

PS, if you are a professional sailor wanting to do the MT in France I would go for p2.
If you want to stay in the US, both are fine.If you want to cruise a bit too, the Zero.
If you want to do winter sailing, the Zero cockpit suits that a little better due to protection.

#18 jetfuel

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:42 AM

I will never get to Europe with it lol
Canada, US
Do some 25-300 mile races and spend a night or two

#19 LeoV

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 05:37 PM

Then its the one you can afford.

(and a reason to get a P2 is the service the yard give, if it was a new boat, I would go P2)

#20 winksaville

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:15 PM

I'm thinking about getting a mini and sailing in the transpac. Does any know what's available in used boats on the west coast?

-- Wink




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