Pogo 2 or Tip Top ?Which is better
Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:40 PM
forgot to add the Zero into the equation
which is better?
Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:12 PM
LO 300 , Mac, various 100 mile races on the Great Lakea
Posted 29 September 2012 - 02:57 PM
Most Mini programs are run on a shoe string; with most of the used boats out there I'd be concerned about inheriting someone else's problems.
Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:02 PM
I picked a TipTop over the Pogo for various reasons that I think I wrote about once (cockpit, tiller arrangement, companion way, and a few other bits). But of course, you cannot argue with the Pogo2's results in Europe. It is by far the most popular boat there and typically comes in at the top.
As for series minis in the US, there are only a handful of them and they are all quite new and lightly used, so I don't think you can get into too much trouble with any one of them.
Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:26 PM
Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:31 AM
Posted 19 October 2012 - 05:42 PM
But I had one client who for years made statistics, and then the P2 and Zero was even, but Zero very small database, unexperienced sailors.
For the Med, the Ginto was high in statistics.(7 yrs ago) (Tiptop was not around then)
I did build 30 Zero's and had access to a P2 for months as comparison. Sailed on Ginto, Pogo1, Dingo.
P2, in the beam winds, a tiny bit faster on a very specific course, due to genua to jib switch and the italian rigging of the Zero.
So never chase a P2 on that specific course, just sail a bit deeper or higher taking into account the weatherforecast.
In the really light the Zero was faster, mostly due to keel design. (it even stunned protos in the real real light in the hands of Elaine Chua who was in her learning stage )
So its up to sailor skill, not the boat, in longer races.
I know that the boatnumbers I did build are very equal in build weight, between 530 to 650 nrs (and some newer ask the build company, FastZero after 530 and MOS composites.
The boats that have done the transatlantic 2 times or more, forget them, owners have probably tinkered way to much. (just a general rule, you can find good ones, but you need to know your stuff).
And some P2 have been professional faired at a huge huge cost, if you can find one of them, its a bonus.
Tiptop, no opinion, as I had a run in with the owner of the first yard, so can not be independent...
Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:40 PM
For long distance offshore races, it is an endurance factor. The sailors make the difference. If you go to sleep while someone else (regarding of the boat) stays up and steer, you will stay behind. There's no secret.
The Pogo 2 had some great sailors to race and it definitely helped getting more boats out, but remember that the Pogo 2 won its first Mini Transat the same year it came out. If the sailor was good, it still proved that the boat design was perfect. It was in 2003. Since then the Pogo 2 has been on every podium, with more first place than any other production minis. Now, regardless of the sailors and racers, 120 boats have been built. Again, that is a higher number than any other Minis. Lots of them never raced. That is also a fact about Mini Transat 6.50 boats: if you can cross oceans singlehanded on these boats, you can also just use them as day sailor or pocket cruisers. All minis have plenty of room on deck and plenty of volume down below for a small family (or close friends) to have fun.
Mini Sailing is not all about racing and comparing all boats doesn't bring much.
I believe that what's important nowadays is resale value. Unfortunately, when you buy a boat, you have to consider how much you are ready to loose. I am sure you all do the same when buying a vehicle. If you buy a proto, you will never see your money back, if any...Buying a production (aka series) Mini, you will get more out of the boat and resale it better. The way I see it, is that a BMW has a better resale value than a Nissan for example (no offense to anyone). The Pogo 2, in the small world of Mini sailing, definitely has a better resale value than other production minis, even if we agree that it is not "that much different" than other Minis.
In the USA, the fleet is small but growing (finally). The demand for pre-owned boats will grow as well which is good for any Mini owners (proto, series). What matters is to get out and have fun. This is why we are organizing a race this summer 2013 for Minis only. Who knows what will happen in 2014. I can only tell you that there will be another fleet race, just not sure where yet ;-)
Pogo 2 Builder - Worldwide
First Mini Transat 6.50 to race to Hawaii Singlehanded ;-)
Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:49 PM
Selling my Figaro so you may see me out there soon on a Mini of some kind
Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:32 PM
That would be quite a change from the first two races where we primarily had prototype boats.
Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:31 PM
Is that Nathan's boat #680 in Kingston?... Nice boat! I seriously considered buying Andy Abel's Zero #670 when it was for sale in Florida in couple years ago; I procrastinated too long and it got sold.
The closest to me is a 2008 Zero
Diane Reid's Mini in Toronto is also a Zero (#655) http://www.onegirlsoceanchallenge.com/ She could provide some insight...
Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:59 PM
Jerome, your story is true and tells a lot.
But that the p2 won in its first yrs its class was not a surprise, that boat was trained on a lot, and tricked out. It was a very good marketing trick. Company supported, best sailmaker (very important) and very light, around 150 kg lighter then the competition at the time. Which was dominantly the P1 from the same yard and some older designs. It was a boat that had an advantage of 10 yrs of development with regards to competition. (which were mostly adventure sailors having fun and some even smoking pot across the Atlantic, with a very small group of racing guys)
Was a very good tactic, and did boast the yard Structures to what it is now.
But as one sailor who sailed a lot on both, I would be happy on either one
Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:43 PM
Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:32 PM
If you want to stay in the US, both are fine.If you want to cruise a bit too, the Zero.
If you want to do winter sailing, the Zero cockpit suits that a little better due to protection.
Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:42 AM
Do some 25-300 mile races and spend a night or two
Posted 28 October 2012 - 05:37 PM
(and a reason to get a P2 is the service the yard give, if it was a new boat, I would go P2)
Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:15 PM
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