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N2E 2013

time to plan the next one

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#1 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:34 AM

In 2012 NOSA implemented more Sailing Anarchy suggestions into their Newport To Ensenada race, than any club has in the history of the world! Changes to classes, starting order (reversed), finish venue (Hotel Coral resort), and club attire (no blazers). It worked and was a very good race. Participation was up 25%. I had a good time myself.

As we plan for the 2013 N2E race, it seems only prudent to ask the racers of SA to once again comment on what they liked and what they didn't like about the last race. We can always improve it further.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a N2E racer (13 years) and a NOSA director (year #2). I plan to race in 2013. My interest in improving it further are purely selfish. As it stands now, the 2013 race will be a lot like the 2012 race, except more wind.

Suggestions?

#2 saltyokie

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:33 AM

Put a light on the North Coronardo island ?

#3 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

Put a light on the North Coronardo island ?


Rumor has it that the USCG is off negotiating for such a light with Mexico.

#4 Saboteer

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

Move the awards back downtown. Last years ceremony was too small and there was no local interaction between the sailors and the city. Downtown was a ghost town. Plus the $6 beers at the corral don't make sense. Where's the cases being served by pretty ladies?

#5 DryArmour

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:43 PM

Move the awards back downtown. Last years ceremony was too small and there was no local interaction between the sailors and the city. Downtown was a ghost town. Plus the $6 beers at the corral don't make sense. Where's the cases being served by pretty ladies?


The Race needs a beer sponsor. Corona and Corona girls? I think the venue was fine but I think Corona as a part of the sponsor deals could make $1 cervesas available.

#6 condor

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:57 PM

Even if you wanted to spend the money, it took at least a half-hour to get any service at the Coral trophy ceremony.

We're coming, and plans are already underway to carry our own beers in.

(There was a nice local lady out by the driveway selling beers out of a cooler at one point - need more of them.)

#7 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:19 AM

I definately agree about beer cost and beer service.
Must be improved!

#8 JST

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:47 PM

I have to agree about no food and beer service.
We waited for over 30 min for crap food and there was no one to serve the beer they had.
More servers and cheaper beer!

#9 Green Card

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:26 PM

We did this race for the first time this last year, so can't speak to any historical issues. The only thing that stuck in my mind, and we are from Seattle so maybe this is how it is, was how unwelcome we felt at the YC while picking up our packets. Security at the doors to the yacht club? Like I said, maybe there was a problem in the past that we don't know about. It just felt really strange. I saw some friends out on a boat at the dock, but could not go see them as we lacked the appropriate wrist band.

#10 n0w0rries

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:36 AM

Long drink lines... it always cracks me up when you go to a race pre or post party and they got like 1 bartender... like they never heard of drunken sailors? or maybe that's what they're afraid of?

#11 sunseeker

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:05 AM


Move the awards back downtown. Last years ceremony was too small and there was no local interaction between the sailors and the city. Downtown was a ghost town. Plus the $6 beers at the corral don't make sense. Where's the cases being served by pretty ladies?



The Race needs a beer sponsor. Corona and Corona girls? I think the venue was fine but I think Corona as a part of the sponsor deals could make $1 cervesas available.


Get Ralph Rodheim on the sponsorship trail pronto. He knows everything about sailing and sponsorship. Just ask him.

#12 DoRag

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:26 PM

In 2012 NOSA implemented more Sailing Anarchy suggestions into their Newport To Ensenada race, than any club has in the history of the world! Changes to classes, starting order (reversed), finish venue (Hotel Coral resort), and club attire (no blazers). It worked and was a very good race. Participation was up 25%. I had a good time myself.

As we plan for the 2013 N2E race, it seems only prudent to ask the racers of SA to once again comment on what they liked and what they didn't like about the last race. We can always improve it further.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a N2E racer (13 years) and a NOSA director (year #2). I plan to race in 2013. My interest in improving it further are purely selfish. As it stands now, the 2013 race will be a lot like the 2012 race, except more wind.

Suggestions?


Was the participation increase in the racing classes or in the cruising classes? To get more participation you folks could focus on the cruising clubs, perhaps have safety lectures, and, for sure, engine tune up presentations.

#13 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:03 PM

Downtown was a ghost town.


My crew & I snagged a $4 taxi and had a great Sat. afternoon visiting Amigos, Papas, & Beer, Hussongs, and even the wine tasting place next door. (I can't really recommend the wine) most of these places were hopping.

#14 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:06 PM

The only thing that stuck in my mind, and we are from Seattle so maybe this is how it is, was how unwelcome we felt at the YC while picking up our packets.


I have it on good authority that packet pickup and the pre-race party will not be at BCYC in 2013. Your kind of experience being a factor.

#15 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:14 PM

Was the participation increase in the racing classes or in the cruising classes? To get more participation you folks could focus on the cruising clubs, perhaps have safety lectures, and, for sure, engine tune up presentations.


Checking the numbers, I find I overstated the overall increase from 2011 to 2012, up 21% is more accurate. Up a bit more for racers than cruisers. Thanks for the suggestions on how to increase cruiser participation. I think they add a nice diversity to this event at about 32% of participants, and carry their proportion of the event costs. But I think I speak for most of the board when I say that our first priority is increasing racer participation.

#16 readyabout82

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:54 PM

last weekend we waited to cross the border for 5 FUCKING HOURS. That fact alone has ruined all interest in staying in Ensenada after the race. There is no amount of tequila or lap-dances at Paris that justify that bullshit.

However, I've looked into it, and sailors can get a FastTrack pass through Marina Coral.



The only way I'd consider coming back to Ensenada is if it were possible to be in a carpool/shuttle that can take advantage of the Fast Track pass.

For the Ensenada organizers, I'd strongly recommend encouraging all racers to get a Fast Track pass, and utilize a shuttle service.

#17 DA-WOODY

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:47 PM

last weekend we waited to cross the border for 5 FUCKING HOURS. That fact alone has ruined all interest in staying in Ensenada after the race. There is no amount of tequila or lap-dances at Paris that justify that bullshit.

However, I've looked into it, and sailors can get a FastTrack pass through Marina Coral.



The only way I'd consider coming back to Ensenada is if it were possible to be in a carpool/shuttle that can take advantage of the Fast Track pass.

For the Ensenada organizers, I'd strongly recommend encouraging all racers to get a Fast Track pass, and utilize a shuttle service.


I beleive they made a pretty big push for those last year

NOW WTF with BCYC not hosting, I was only about 6 years away from having that place all figured out

Can't see a party @ 333 :o

#18 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:53 AM

We've been out sampling wind for the 2013 N2E race.
Sunday was the Caregiver's Sailathon, 2 hours of short laps off the Ventura pier for charity. No one predicted the 25-30+ breeze.

http://www.youtube.c...Qo&feature=plcp

I think this is the wind we need for N2E.
Great fun!

#19 DA-WOODY

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:16 AM

we can address all that later




















What About BCYC ??????????????????????????

#20 DryArmour

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:15 PM

We've been out sampling wind for the 2013 N2E race.
Sunday was the Caregiver's Sailathon, 2 hours of short laps off the Ventura pier for charity. No one predicted the 25-30+ breeze.



I think this is the wind we need for N2E.
Great fun!


WOW...miss those days on the AFTERBURNER...Good times!

#21 maxtrim

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:39 PM

I was skeptical of some of the changes-for the most part the moving the party out of down town and to the Coral. Afterwards I was pretty impressed, it all went well and everyone seemed to have a great time. But..... another vote here on the cheaper beers, and although the hotel food was good, get some of the local street taco carts in for cheap eats. We'll be back and booked a couple of rooms before we left, see ya down south.

#22 Somebody Else

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:12 PM

Watching that video of cat in 25 knots reminded me of a question I have:

Does anyone have a recommendation for a full-coverage sun hat that doesn't make the wearer look like some geeky professor?

Not into baseball caps which don't cover the ears or neck and blow overboard with enough regularity that if your GPS's batteries die you can follow a trail of them right into Bahia Todos Santos.

#23 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:23 PM

Does anyone have a recommendation for a full-coverage sun hat that doesn't make the wearer look like some geeky professor?


I have new interest in the answers, as the hat in question was lost later in the race, in spite of a chin strap. :-)
It was light and cool, though the brim flips up in 15+ TWS
Better geeky than skin cancer I guess.
One crew lost a Mt Gay hat in this race as well.

#24 Somebody Else

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:50 PM

I have one by Sloggers which looks like the one worn by the cat's helmsman.

It performs as it should but it instantly adds 15 years to the look of anyone who wears one.

I also do not want some rootin' tootin' cowboy hat, nor do I wish to affect the Indiana Jones look.
Maybe a straw lifeguard hat is the right choice. They aren't very durable but at least look [slightly] less out-of-touch than the alternatives.

#25 n0w0rries

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:38 PM


The only thing that stuck in my mind, and we are from Seattle so maybe this is how it is, was how unwelcome we felt at the YC while picking up our packets.


I have it on good authority that packet pickup and the pre-race party will not be at BCYC in 2013. Your kind of experience being a factor.


A little birdy told me BCYC wasn't interested in having all those racers at their club.

#26 walterbshaffer

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:12 PM

A little birdy told me BCYC wasn't interested in having all those racers at their club.

I don't know anybody at BCYC and maybe my experience was unique but the staff there was definitely hostile. Not grumpy, hostile. They should take the "Corinthian" out of thier name.

These are decent hats

http://www.ebay.com/...=item3cc9e44dce

#27 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:35 PM



The only thing that stuck in my mind, and we are from Seattle so maybe this is how it is, was how unwelcome we felt at the YC while picking up our packets.


I have it on good authority that packet pickup and the pre-race party will not be at BCYC in 2013. Your kind of experience being a factor.


A little birdy told me BCYC wasn't interested in having all those racers at their club.


I think that's why people didn't feel welcomed there...

#28 DoRag

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:30 PM



The only thing that stuck in my mind, and we are from Seattle so maybe this is how it is, was how unwelcome we felt at the YC while picking up our packets.


I have it on good authority that packet pickup and the pre-race party will not be at BCYC in 2013. Your kind of experience being a factor.


A little birdy told me BCYC wasn't interested in having all those racers at their club.


"Racers?" Maybe it was all those cruisers - not the racers.

Over the years BCYC has been an important, and fun, part of the Ensenada Race. Now that it has become a cruise, perhaps they are less interested.

#29 bodysurf

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:22 PM

Move the awards back downtown. Last years ceremony was too small and there was no local interaction between the sailors and the city. Downtown was a ghost town. Plus the $6 beers at the corral don't make sense. Where's the cases being served by pretty ladies?


Have the after party at Anthony's you'll get pleanty of local interaction there.

#30 CowboyKell

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:25 PM

I also do not want some rootin' tootin' cowboy hat,


Whats wrong with a cowboy hat??

#31 Somebody Else

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:54 PM


I also do not want some rootin' tootin' cowboy hat,


Whats wrong with a cowboy hat??


On a boat?

Plenty!

Let's disregard the whole "pretentious" angle because that's too easy a target.
I've seen a few crew who can pull off that look; never a skipper though.

The Aussie bush hat is little better:
Posted Image

I like it for being practical -- and it makes an extremely practical sailing hat on larger boats -- but it's another look that I find vaguely irritating.
I think my dislike for it started with the movie "Wind" where Matthew Modine's Aussie rival Jack Neville wore one while racing I14s. "Hey! Look at me! I'm Australian! Get it?!" Yes. We get it.

Another look that just screams incompetence is the skipper wearing a railroad engineer cap. Ted Turner could pull it off 40 years ago because he was the ONLY one and it suited him. Hey Catalina 30 skipper, you're not Ted Turner.

Or any other zany headgear. "It's my look." "It's my lucky hat."
Christ!

No... my search continues. Until then I shall continue to rock the professor look with my Slogger. <_<

#32 Somebody Else

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:13 PM

As an aside, the whole BCYC thing has multiple roots.

It all started with the club getting pretty much thoroughly trashed after every pre-Ensenada party.
Part of this was the reputation the party got of being the biggest open party of the year in Newport. Anyone could walk in and they did. Gold-digging secretaries from local business offices, hookers, bubba dudes lookin' for a good time, etc.
So the party was moved to the outside. No one "allowed" inside.

So now you have a bunch of volunteers manning the bulwarks (the clubhouse does look like it's intended to deflect an artillery barrage) who have little experience in crowd management and even less guidance or policy. They are told, in the simplest terms, "No one inside."

Then some doofus decided to move the race packet pick-up area completely out-of-sight, the only way there being through the thickest part of the party including 2 or 3 choke points. None of the gate-keepers are told where the race packets are. Eventually some of them learn this from word-of-mouth. I think the race-packets were moved to a more reasonable location in recent years but I can't remember; it all sort of blurs together into a haze.

Here's a picture of the party. Can you spot the RACE PACKETS sign?

Posted Image

There's more, but you should be getting the picture that it's not just one thing; it's a whole series of conditions that just aren't working together very well.

#33 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:35 AM

"Racers?" Maybe it was all those cruisers - not the racers.

Over the years BCYC has been an important, and fun, part of the Ensenada Race. Now that it has become a cruise, perhaps they are less interested.


The cruisers were added to N2E in 1985. Can't have been a recent problem for BCYC.

#34 sumpin

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:46 AM

im in w d wood..lets get some cougar meat

#35 DoRag

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

"Racers?" Maybe it was all those cruisers - not the racers.

Over the years BCYC has been an important, and fun, part of the Ensenada Race. Now that it has become a cruise, perhaps they are less interested.


The cruisers were added to N2E in 1985. Can't have been a recent problem for BCYC.


Maybe.

Perhaps compare how many in 1985 vs. now?

#36 NorCalLaser

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

Here's a quick tip for ya: list the boat type in the event results! You see, when people are deciding if they want to sail the next iteration of this event, they will browse last year's results and see who their competition would be. Really helpful to know what type of boats exactly are in the various classes!

#37 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:57 PM

N2E is only 6 months off.
Much will be the same as last year. The Coral Hotel and reverse start were popular changes.
Lexus returns as the title sponsor, Mt Gay hats are back.
The pre-race Fiesta party moves from BCYC to the Pavilion. Sea Scouts and Vessel Assist will provide water taxis.
Beer (beverage) price and service pre-awards have been identified as a key problem to solve and are being worked on.
$50 discount to register this year.
Pre-race seminars will focus on safety; maintaining a good watch, navigation, areas north of the Coronados where the lights are hidden, etc. The materials will be available on line as well. The seminars give away swag.
NOSA is buying SA ads, so no need to flame this race posting.

#38 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:59 PM

PHRF MIR Rule.
This rule limits the number of marine industry types (pros) per boat. NOSA typically waives it for the Maxis. It's been suggested that NOSA waive it for all boats.
Does anyone care?

#39 CowboyKell

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 11:15 PM

PHRF MIR Rule.
This rule limits the number of marine industry types (pros) per boat. NOSA typically waives it for the Maxis. It's been suggested that NOSA waive it for all boats.
Does anyone care?


Why should they. Most marine industry types bring no more to the program than your decent weekend warrior racer.

#40 DA-WOODY

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:05 AM

N2E is only 6 months off.
Much will be the same as last year. The Coral Hotel and reverse start were popular changes.
Lexus returns as the title sponsor, Mt Gay hats are back.
The pre-race Fiesta party moves from BCYC to the Pavilion. Sea Scouts and Vessel Assist will provide water taxis.
Beer (beverage) price and service pre-awards have been identified as a key problem to solve and are being worked on.
$50 discount to register this year.
Pre-race seminars will focus on safety; maintaining a good watch, navigation, areas north of the Coronados where the lights are hidden, etc. The materials will be available on line as well. The seminars give away swag.
NOSA is buying SA ads, so no need to flame this race posting.


just where at the pavillion are they going to have a party??

not thinking improvment here :blink: :wacko: :unsure:

#41 Wash

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:26 AM

Bill--The powerboat classes should be dropped--- they are a joke-- and they take away, not add value to this once great race- time to turn this event back into a race for racing sailboats-

#42 sunseeker

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 04:28 AM


PHRF MIR Rule.
This rule limits the number of marine industry types (pros) per boat. NOSA typically waives it for the Maxis. It's been suggested that NOSA waive it for all boats.
Does anyone care?


Why should they. Most marine industry types bring no more to the program than your decent weekend warrior racer.


There aren't enough marine industry racers to even matter any more. And yes I agree of those who are around very few make a critical difference. It's not like Ullman is going to stack a boat just to win one class.

#43 sumpin

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:05 PM

funny...sure they will have shuttles but maybe they should have a seminar on how far NB jail is to the boat. I can just see a bunch of dolts trying to run the peninsula after the party. Easy picken's for Newports finest.
Really bad choice

#44 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:24 PM

Bill--The powerboat classes should be dropped--- they are a joke-- and they take away, not add value to this once great race- time to turn this event back into a race for racing sailboats-

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. The cruiser classes are sailboats, not power boats. They get to run their motors at night for a time penalty. What they are doing is not a sail race. But why should this bother me? They start separately and are scored separately. N2E does have some overall perpetual trophies; first to finish, first on corrected, last to finish, etc. The cruisers are not eligible for these. There is no competition between cruisers and sail racers. You can think of the cruisers as being a totally different event that has no effect on the on us sail race participants, and we are the great majority. Unless you object to them showing up at the parties? Or making the beer lines longer?

#45 sunseeker

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:27 PM

funny...sure they will have shuttles but maybe they should have a seminar on how far NB jail is to the boat. I can just see a bunch of dolts trying to run the peninsula after the party. Easy picken's for Newports finest.
Really bad choice


This party has long ago ceased to be about and for racing sailors. In the '80's a couple of guys at BCYC figured out how to make their club a "sponsor" of the race, one of them made a lot of money selling t shirts, the club made a lot of money on food and booze. Cougars started coming. Now BCYC doesn't like the party so much.

The sponsorship agent needed a place to have the party. So he takes the party to where he has influence and can maybe make a buck it two off it.

Tell me, what do the sponsors really bring to the table anyway? I remember the theory they helped to keep the entry fee down. How true is that and by how much is the entry fee really reduced because if sponsors? How much money is the sponsor agent making? How does the n2e really benefit because if sponsors? Has the race grown because of sponsors?

How many people will go all the way to the pavilion for this party? How many of them will be actual participants in the race?

I couldn't be bothered. Woody's and Cassidy's is where all the best action is anyway.

#46 Somebody Else

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 04:22 PM


Bill--The powerboat classes should be dropped--- they are a joke-- and they take away, not add value to this once great race- time to turn this event back into a race for racing sailboats-

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from.


Everyone else understands.

Call it whatever you like, it's still the powerboat classes and the only purpose they serve is to make participation in the race appear artificially higher than it actually is.

When I see boats on the starting line with not one, but two bimini sun shades up plus a spray dodger (all this on a cloudy day with no wind) I conclude that here is someone who is most obviously just phoning it in. They care so little about actually racing that they simply can't be bothered to put in the 15 minutes of effort remove such glaringly obvious impediments to performance. They may as well have their engine in gear, idling in reverse because they obviously don't have the slightest intention of actually "racing." Add to that, 25-year-old sails with no functioning outhaul ("It's too hard to use.")

It's not being "inclusive;" it's a slap in the face to people actually interested in racing. It detracts from the value of the racing class trophies. Cheapens them.

#47 Dude

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:05 PM

funny...sure they will have shuttles but maybe they should have a seminar on how far NB jail is to the boat. I can just see a bunch of dolts trying to run the peninsula after the party. Easy picken's for Newports finest.
Really bad choice


Sumpin has got this one right, I gave up running the gauntlet years ago. Most of the locals will just end up in the Saloon and a few will stumble into the Class of 47, should make for some good entertainment. If I do go I will just ride my bike, or park the car on Balboa Island. Remember the ferry closes before the bars do, I bet that harbor patrol sheriff still tells the story of me on that bright yellow "Pedalo" I borrowed to get back to Balboa Island one hot summer early morning. GOOD Times Baby! Should make for some good stories, but overall I have to think it's a bad idea.

Wonder if NOSA even considered Newport Dunes under a tent?

#48 PeterHuston

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:22 PM


funny...sure they will have shuttles but maybe they should have a seminar on how far NB jail is to the boat. I can just see a bunch of dolts trying to run the peninsula after the party. Easy picken's for Newports finest.
Really bad choice


Sumpin has got this one right, I gave up running the gauntlet years ago. Most of the locals will just end up in the Saloon and a few will stumble into the Class of 47, should make for some good entertainment. If I do go I will just ride my bike, or park the car on Balboa Island. Remember the ferry closes before the bars do, I bet that harbor patrol sheriff still tells the story of me on that bright yellow "Pedalo" I borrowed to get back to Balboa Island one hot summer early morning. GOOD Times Baby! Should make for some good stories, but overall I have to think it's a bad idea.

Wonder if NOSA even considered Newport Dunes under a tent?


Why rely on NOSA to put together a party? We can all just decide where to go for our own fun.

Racers party at either the Village Idiot or 333.

#49 DA-WOODY

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 06:38 PM


funny...sure they will have shuttles but maybe they should have a seminar on how far NB jail is to the boat. I can just see a bunch of dolts trying to run the peninsula after the party. Easy picken's for Newports finest.
Really bad choice


Sumpin has got this one right, I gave up running the gauntlet years ago. Most of the locals will just end up in the Saloon and a few will stumble into the Class of 47, should make for some good entertainment. If I do go I will just ride my bike, or park the car on Balboa Island. Remember the ferry closes before the bars do, I bet that harbor patrol sheriff still tells the story of me on that bright yellow "Pedalo" I borrowed to get back to Balboa Island one hot summer early morning. GOOD Times Baby! Should make for some good stories, but overall I have to think it's a bad idea.

Wonder if NOSA even considered Newport Dunes under a tent?


DUNES + 1

$5 taxi to/from BCYC

Don't forget a "BUI" will keep you in the tank till your start time - just like a "DUI"

too far for me to enjoy the party if I stay in Newport overnight

the Dunes would have been Perfect or the hotel across the street from the Dunes

Real Shame to put an end to a party the I thought still had Legs - I know it still had Tits

if this party stumbles it will take away a Big part of the Fun that is/was the N2E

Wonder if the party can still be moved back to the other side of the Bay

OCcupy BCYC :o :o :lol: :lol: :lol:

#50 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:19 PM

It's not being "inclusive;" it's a slap in the face to people actually interested in racing. It detracts from the value of the racing class trophies. Cheapens them.

There is a group of people who want to "sail race" to Ensenada, and have the option to use their motors at night. Having talked to some of the participants, they take winning very seriously. There are people who race 4ksb's and take winning very seriously. There are people who race multi-million dollar Maxis's, and take winning very seriously. All are very different from where I get serious about winning, which is racing multi-hulls. Many of the other race classes are unappealling to me for various reasons. But I don't feel compelled to shut them out of their chosen sport. You don't like cruiser racing? Fine, don't do it. It only get's stupid when someone tries to compare wildly different activities with a single winner, and that isn't happening with cruisers in N2E. They are their own thing.

There was a time when multihulls couldn't get a class start in sailboat races because someone thought they weren't real sailboats, and that letting them race would detract from the event overall.

#51 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

I think the Pavilion is a done deal for 2013. You guys may be right, but I had nothing to do with it.
I think it was BCYC's decision to quit. I like the suggestion of the Dune and will see it gets considered for future events.

Do racers really stay up and party all night before the race?
My crew & I hit the Fiesta party to be supportive, have a couple beers, then off to a crew dinner and to bed early.
How can hung-over people race effectively?

It is possible we drink a bit too much at the other end in downtown Ensenada, to compensate.

#52 sunseeker

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:51 PM

I think the Pavilion is a done deal for 2013. You guys may be right, but I had nothing to do with it.
I think it was BCYC's decision to quit. I like the suggestion of the Dune and will see it gets considered for future events.

Do racers really stay up and party all night before the race?
My crew & I hit the Fiesta party to be supportive, have a couple beers, then off to a crew dinner and to bed early.
How can hung-over people race effectively?

It is possible we drink a bit too much at the other end in downtown Ensenada, to compensate.


No doubt was BCYC decision to quit. Woody promoted the place as cougarville.

Damn few people from BCYC actually race. Motorboat and power sailor club now. Sort of always has been.

#53 Wash

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:29 AM


Bill--The powerboat classes should be dropped--- they are a joke-- and they take away, not add value to this once great race- time to turn this event back into a race for racing sailboats-

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. The cruiser classes are sailboats, not power boats. They get to run their motors at night for a time penalty. What they are doing is not a sail race. But why should this bother me? They start separately and are scored separately. N2E does have some overall perpetual trophies; first to finish, first on corrected, last to finish, etc. The cruisers are not eligible for these. There is no competition between cruisers and sail racers. You can think of the cruisers as being a totally different event that has no effect on the on us sail race participants, and we are the great majority. Unless you object to them showing up at the parties? Or making the beer lines longer?


The cruiser classes (Powerboats) are a joke and have cheapened the Ensenada Race brand. And they do have an effect on us sailors-- I have been almost run over twice over the years by these idiots who turn on the auto pilot and go to sleep and have had to take evasive action several times from these incompetent non-sailors at night- frustrating and ridiculous.

Your statement that us "Sail Race Participants" are the great majority makes me wonder what #'s you are looking at--

#54 DoRag

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:09 AM


I think the Pavilion is a done deal for 2013. You guys may be right, but I had nothing to do with it.
I think it was BCYC's decision to quit. I like the suggestion of the Dune and will see it gets considered for future events.

Do racers really stay up and party all night before the race?
My crew & I hit the Fiesta party to be supportive, have a couple beers, then off to a crew dinner and to bed early.
How can hung-over people race effectively?

It is possible we drink a bit too much at the other end in downtown Ensenada, to compensate.


No doubt was BCYC decision to quit. Woody promoted the place as cougarville.

Damn few people from BCYC actually race. Motorboat and power sailor club now. Sort of always has been.


Motorbaots and power sailors? Sounds like a real fit with the N2E....

I understand these "racer/cruisers" are looking for "go-fasts" like trip twos, hot cams, and titanium lifters.....

#55 Somebody Else

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:40 AM

Motorbaots and power sailors? Sounds like a real fit with the N2E....

I understand these "racer/cruisers" are looking for "go-fasts" like trip twos, hot cams, and titanium lifters.....


It's much easier than any of that complicated stuff, son!
  • You slap on the largest 3-blade prop your engine can turn.
  • Take the rating credit for it.
  • Sun goes down -- kick it into 4th mode.
  • Clean up on the podium!


#56 sumpin

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:11 AM

plus 1 for dunes, good idea
- 1 for cruisers w motors
It's a SAILboat race
start the slower boats the day before if you have to
engines have NO place in a sailboat race, PERIOD

#57 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:00 AM

Well, I'm not aware that any other SA thread has reached a consensus or changed strongly held opinions. Why should this be any different?

I personally disagree with haters of a cruiser class. I think we should encourage any racing use of a sailboat, even this. (My personal multiple near collision experiences have all been with a Flying Tiger (not ed), but I don't blame the class. )
As for near collisions due to motoring autopilots without a watch; this is a dangerous illegal practice, racing or not. NOSA is considering "no autopilot while motoring" for the cruising class, partially in response to the tragedy of the 2012 race.

All your opinions are duely noted and will be reported to the NOSA Board. After about 20 years of a cruiser class in N2E making up about a third of participants, I doubt they will be eliminated for 2013. But I'm only one vote.

#58 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:02 AM

Your statement that us "Sail Race Participants" are the great majority makes me wonder what #'s you are looking at


2012 N2E, 32% cruisers, 68% sail racers

#59 PeterHuston

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:03 AM

Well, I'm not aware that any other SA thread has reached a consensus or changed strongly held opinions. Why should this be any different?

I personally disagree with haters of a cruiser class. I think we should encourage any racing use of a sailboat, even this. (My personal multiple near collision experiences have all been with a Flying Tiger (not ed), but I don't blame the class. )
As for near collisions due to motoring autopilots without a watch; this is a dangerous illegal practice, racing or not. NOSA is considering "no autopilot while motoring" for the cruising class, partially in response to the tragedy of the 2012 race.

All your opinions are duely noted and will be reported to the NOSA Board. After about 20 years of a cruiser class in N2E making up about a third of participants, I doubt they will be eliminated for 2013. But I'm only one vote.


When I read the SI's after the tragedy, I noted that 2 gps's were required, but I saw no requirement for paper charts.

I'd require paper charts, and some sort of log - even a simple DR log. Random checks for compliance.

And for sure no autopilots for the powerboat class. Make people hand steer, they will pay more attention.

#60 yowie

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:29 AM

plus 1 for dunes, good idea
- 1 for cruisers w motors
It's a SAILboat race
start the slower boats the day before if you have to
engines have NO place in a sailboat race, PERIOD

The winners of many ocean races would certainly be having one if this view was the rule.

#61 DA-WOODY

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:30 AM

Moving the party from BCYC to the BlaVillian

is not that unlike the plan the chargers had in the 2nd 1/2 of the Denver game last week

Please NOSA Step back and Look at the Bigger Picture

The N2E Race Really Is the Rce from N to E

But MANY Things Make the N2E the event that ONLY The N2E Can be

We should All remember the BS with the 1st Border Run

People doing the BR were at the BCYC/N2E party instead of the BR party @ the same time

and the after race BR party in DAGO was a lightly attended snooz fest

I have NOT bought a N2E Shirt once the same co was selling N2E & BR shirts etc. = too corparate ;)

Some of the Best part of getting a clasic N2E shirt

was dealing with Drunk Ladies selling them and Laughing as they Sold Out every year

Well now another Tridition Dies

If it went to the Dunes it could be HUGE and Grow Bigger as/when the N2E gets back its old numbers

But NO - they move the BCYC-N2E party to the same place the BR uses for its pre-race party :o :o

now who's chasing who ????

You can't say your shirts are any better if the same guy makes both

You can't say your party's any better if it's at the same place as their's


Still 6 months away = Move it to the Dunes before it's too late

#62 Dude

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:47 PM


I think the Pavilion is a done deal for 2013. You guys may be right, but I had nothing to do with it.
I think it was BCYC's decision to quit. I like the suggestion of the Dune and will see it gets considered for future events.

Do racers really stay up and party all night before the race?
My crew & I hit the Fiesta party to be supportive, have a couple beers, then off to a crew dinner and to bed early.
How can hung-over people race effectively?

It is possible we drink a bit too much at the other end in downtown Ensenada, to compensate.




Damn few people from BCYC actually race. Motorboat and power sailor club now. Sort of always has been.


Not true, check out BCYC Club Championships results at http://http://www.bc...sults-2012.aspx and how they did at this weekends Jean Schenck Team Race event http://www.nhyc.org/...all_Results.pdf.

#63 Wash

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:53 AM

Bill--
Ok great-- You asked for feedback and as a 30+ year participant in this once grand race I gave you some--

You come back and throw out that I/we who disagree with you are haters-- really? I am certainly not someone who fits that description.

I am passionate about our sport of sailing-- for sure-- and will continue to be so--

Best wishes for a 2013 successful event-- even if 40% of the participants are not real sailors. :0)

#64 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:31 AM

Bill--
Ok great-- You asked for feedback and as a 30+ year participant in this once grand race I gave you some--

You come back and throw out that I/we who disagree with you are haters-- really? I am certainly not someone who fits that description.

I am passionate about our sport of sailing-- for sure-- and will continue to be so--

Best wishes for a 2013 successful event-- even if 40% of the participants are not real sailors. :0)


What! I offended someone on Sailing Anarchy? How is that possible?
You guys (all the anti-cruiser guys, not you personally) seem a bit harsh on there being a 20 year history of a sub-sail-racer class that is out there doing it in the ocean, albeit with a night motor, which still has to beat all the armchair jockeys on this site. I didn't mean to offend anyone personally, just trying to talk shit. :-) I owe you a beer.

Thanks for the input. But its 32% who are "daysailors".

#65 Wash

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:46 AM


Bill--
Ok great-- You asked for feedback and as a 30+ year participant in this once grand race I gave you some--

You come back and throw out that I/we who disagree with you are haters-- really? I am certainly not someone who fits that description.

I am passionate about our sport of sailing-- for sure-- and will continue to be so--

Best wishes for a 2013 successful event-- even if 40% of the participants are not real sailors. :0)


What! I offended someone on Sailing Anarchy? How is that possible?
You guys (all the anti-cruiser guys, not you personally) seem a bit harsh on there being a 20 year history of a sub-sail-racer class that is out there doing it in the ocean, albeit with a night motor, which still has to beat all the armchair jockeys on this site. I didn't mean to offend anyone personally, just trying to talk shit. :-) I owe you a beer.

Thanks for the input. But its 32% who are "daysailors".


Bill- You owe me nothing-- I gave you input and you dismissed it! Carry on--

#66 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:49 AM

Bill- You owe me nothing-- I gave you input and you dismissed it! Carry on--


I didn't dismiss it. I disagreed with it.
I passed it on regardless.

#67 Wash

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:29 AM

Bill- Really- Again, you asked for feedback and you are dismissing, disagreeing with it - sad

#68 Kmag

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:52 PM

Move the party back to downtown. Way more fun.

#69 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:25 PM

Move the party back to downtown. Way more fun.


You are referring to the awards cermony in Ensenada, right?
Downtown at the Bahia courtyard instead of at the Coral Hotel?

#70 Kmag

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:26 PM

Yes at the Bahia..

#71 inquiring Mind

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:09 PM

I'm not sure I agree about moving the ceremonies back downtown, even though I missed the flavor (bad as it might be), of the city and the Bahia. It appears that anchoring in the harbor is not an option any more, and I have difficulty getting organized to get a slip at one of the marinas before the race. Also, the marinas tend to gouge the boatowners at the quayside area. I was pleased with the way the Coral handled the boats, and we had a very nice dinner in the hotel restaurant. I do agree about the price (high) and availability (long lines) of drinks.

I miss the color (including the concrete donkey) at the Bahia, but that may be because I'm just getting too old.

#72 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:11 PM

Yes at the Bahia..


Anything in particular you like better about the Bahia?

#73 Kmag

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:16 PM

When racing to Mexico or any country it is nice to enjoy and support and enjoy the city/country. I for one really like the feel and tradition that was at the Bahia. A Beatles cover band in Mexico? I miss walking down the street at night and bumping into all the other sailors.

#74 Saboteer

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:59 PM

I agree with kmag, going to the coral is like an all inclusive vacation where you never leave and the city never gets the benefits of your stay. There was plenty of dock space in the marina and i'm sure anyone can tell you how to get in contact with the local dockmasters. And for those of you too afraid to leave the coral then it is still an option. It was sad to see the lack of involvement from the sailors downtown. And having to travel back and forth to the coral to get updates for finishes and dropping off finish time cards was ridiculous. The trophy presentation was fine, but there was a definite lack of attendants. Why race to mexico if you are gonna stay in an isolated resort...might as well shorten the course and finish in SD.

#75 opusone

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:34 PM

Bill- You owe me nothing-- I gave you input and you dismissed it! Carry on--


I didn't dismiss it. I disagreed with it.
I passed it on regardless.


First - I will disclose that I prefer racing. Newport to Ensenada is a sailboat race, right? I just have a problem with sailboats running their engines in gear during a sailboat race.

So, you may lose 10% of your cruising class because they want to run their engines - that should be ok with you. Transpac has a cruiser class, and they are not permitted to run their engines in gear, and they have further to travel. I believe it also makes them take the event more seriously. Better equipment, sails, rigging, preparation, etc. Thereby, making it safer for the rest of us.

Allowing someone to use their engine in a sailboat race is just wrong. Accept it, correct it and move on.

My 2 cents.

opuosne

#76 Dude

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:54 PM

I would give the Coral a couple more years. The hole concept was to make people feel safer with bus rides to and from the event, most participants staying within the resort area and a stronger presence of security. If you want to go down town, then go down town. We should give it 3 more years at least.

As for the cruising class starting their engines, who cares. The bottom line, the more people using their boats the better. If the racing thing catches their eye so much the better for the sport. I do like the idea of no autopilots while the engine is on.

#77 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:08 PM

Let's be honest. The Newport to Ensenada Race has always been a party that a few crazy sailors take seriously as a race. We look back fondly at the crap we got away with in our youth after the race or watched others not quite get away with. The roof dives into the bar pool, broken glasses every, the occassional wardrobe malfunction, the swarms of drunken sailors telling stories. The stories of all the fights at Hussong's. All the stuff we weren't supposed to be doing at home somehow became the norm in Ensenada.

The Ensenada Race is not going to return to those crazy days. But, it's still a party that brings a significant amount of cross border interaction. And, both cultures are trying to tone it down, while keeping the numbers up. We should race our race and keep our party inclusive.

#78 silent bob

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:41 PM

Move the party back to downtown. Way more fun.


Move the damn Island out of the way!

#79 Wash

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:29 AM

What! I offended someone on Sailing Anarchy? How is that possible?
You guys (all the anti-cruiser guys, not you personally) seem a bit harsh on there being a 20 year history of a sub-sail-racer class that is out there doing it in the ocean, albeit with a night motor, which still has to beat all the armchair jockeys on this site. I didn't mean to offend anyone personally, just trying to talk shit. :-) I owe you a beer. Thanks for the input. But its 32% who are "daysailors".

Bill= Amazed that you are asking for feedback and are rejecting and arguing for the status quo to all the feedback-- I will give your 32% because I could care less on math-- but it is a fact that a big part of your fleet going to Ensenada is not sailing-- your redefining power-boaters as Day-sailors is off target-- and misleading--

I, as a participant over 31 times since 1973- have presented the case that the power boaters are a danger to real sailor race participants-- I have had to take evasive action to avoid powerboats in your event on autopilot more than a few times. Scary stuff--

And last year-- one of your powerboats ran into North Coronado Island killing all on board-- It is only a matter of time that a racing sailboat gets run over by one of your powerboats--

#80 DoRag

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:25 PM

What! I offended someone on Sailing Anarchy? How is that possible?
You guys (all the anti-cruiser guys, not you personally) seem a bit harsh on there being a 20 year history of a sub-sail-racer class that is out there doing it in the ocean, albeit with a night motor, which still has to beat all the armchair jockeys on this site. I didn't mean to offend anyone personally, just trying to talk shit. :-) I owe you a beer. Thanks for the input. But its 32% who are "daysailors".

Bill= Amazed that you are asking for feedback and are rejecting and arguing for the status quo to all the feedback-- I will give your 32% because I could care less on math-- but it is a fact that a big part of your fleet going to Ensenada is not sailing-- your redefining power-boaters as Day-sailors is off target-- and misleading--

I, as a participant over 31 times since 1973- have presented the case that the power boaters are a danger to real sailor race participants-- I have had to take evasive action to avoid powerboats in your event on autopilot more than a few times. Scary stuff--

And last year-- one of your powerboats ran into North Coronado Island killing all on board-- It is only a matter of time that a racing sailboat gets run over by one of your powerboats--


Well stated.

And now the lawyers will hold NOSA accountable for their promotion to NASBOATERS.

#81 DA-WOODY

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    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:46 AM

Well I hear that 2 shuttles shal be running between BCYC / BYC & the Party

so you won't get stuck at the party and won't need to risk driving a car or dingy

the location of the party is set but things are still at a point that suggestions can make a difference

I'm Happy to have learned that the powers that be are trying to make the party Bigger & Better as Well as the Race

Anyone want to suggest anything for the party side of the N2E ??????

they are going over things on Friday so Speak-Up if ya got something on your mind

And FYI / A post to this thread can be considered "Delivered" and "Read" by those making the choices

I WILL Miss the BCYC PARTY For Sure

But "We" still have a chance to help make the New Party a Rockin Event

perhaps a theme like O I don't know ........... How about Cleavage :o :lol: :lol: :lol: :wub:

#82 sumpin

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:54 AM

I would give the Coral a couple more years. The hole concept was to make people feel safer with bus rides to and from the event, most participants staying within the resort area and a stronger presence of security. If you want to go down town, then go down town. We should give it 3 more years at least.

As for the cruising class starting their engines, who cares. The bottom line, the more people using their boats the better. If the racing thing catches their eye so much the better for the sport. I do like the idea of no autopilots while the engine is on.






SAILboat RACING...not MOTORboat RACING.
Pick a sport.

It is just pathetic to keep inventing things to keep participation numbers up.

I know you want to sell boats and all but have them "practice race" to the island and back in there own classes. Hell, start a cruising race ..

#83 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:49 AM

Amazed that you are asking for feedback and are rejecting and arguing for the status quo to all the feedback

Just because I ask for feedback, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Lots of people argue for their own opinion on SA.

your redefining power-boaters as Day-sailors is off target-- and misleading

I was simply referring to the fact that they are sailboat racers by day, like everybody else. Hence "Day sailors". The motoring part you and others find objectionable occurs at night.

Is there anyone out there who is not doing the N2E race because the Cruiser class can motor at night? And any who would do the N2E race if motoring was eliminated for the Cruisers?

#84 EarthBM

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:25 AM

And any who would do the N2E race if motoring was eliminated for the Cruisers?


me, for one. Write down motor hours, more than 0.2hr more at the finish = DNF

Race is a symbol. Nothing more. Motoring drives a wooden stake through the heart of this symbol.

"Cruisers" can do Baja Ha Ha. Or you could run a separate event called N2E Ha Ha.

#85 sumpin

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:37 AM

And any who would do the N2E race if motoring was eliminated for the Cruisers?


me, for one. Write down motor hours, more than 0.2hr more at the finish = DNF

Race is a symbol. Nothing more. Motoring drives a wooden stake through the heart of this symbol.

"Cruisers" can do Baja Ha Ha. Or you could run a separate event called N2E Ha Ha.




yes

and I might do both

#86 Somebody Else

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:13 AM

[ nothing quoted ]


Your name reminds me of one of my favorite beers, "Little Sumpin' Sumpin' Ale" from Lagunitas Brewing Company.
In fact, I'm drinking one right now!

If you are into the hops, I highly recommend it!

#87 Snapper

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:24 AM

Hell, start a cruising race ..


A cruising race? Good one. Maybe the Bucky Felliini Round The Islands Memorial?

#88 DoRag

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:36 PM

Amazed that you are asking for feedback and are rejecting and arguing for the status quo to all the feedback

Just because I ask for feedback, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Lots of people argue for their own opinion on SA.

your redefining power-boaters as Day-sailors is off target-- and misleading

I was simply referring to the fact that they are sailboat racers by day, like everybody else. Hence "Day sailors". The motoring part you and others find objectionable occurs at night.

Is there anyone out there who is not doing the N2E race because the Cruiser class can motor at night? And any who would do the N2E race if motoring was eliminated for the Cruisers?


I've raced in over 25 N2E races. But no more. My reason is the cumulative effect of a whole series of bad decisions by NOSA, culminating with the NASBOAT Class. The NOSA board has morhed over to a majority of cruisers, mirroring the same general trend in most YCs. The notion of a sprit class which equated, eg, J120s with Hendo 30s, M24s and Antrim 27s was indicative of the lack of any real racing exopertise by the Board. The race became more and more about NOSA, with their penquin-like blue blazers and white pants (gag) and the endless introductions of the "dignitaries" on the lawn at the Bahia. did NOSA really believe that any of the racers enjoyed that?

And now, with your latest posts, we see your frustration and the NOSA attitude - it's our race we will do as we see fit. No, NOSA, it's about the racers, not you. We see how you have truned off increasing numbers of participants. You are destroying an integral part of SoCal racing with your inept actions. And now you have the Aegean incident as a wake-up call.

#89 1topfueljim

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:11 PM

There is a club a liitle south of Newport which consistently has among the largest number of participants in this race. Someone there with long involvement with NOSA told me about the move to the Coral: "They said it was because the racers wanted it, but no one asked us". It seems obvious that the move was made because some key players (and/or their families) wanted to stay at a resort, not nasty old downtown, and probably with some sort of quid pro quo. I've been involved in this race in one way or another for over 30 years, from Long Beach to San Diego, and what was once The Big Event of Southern California sailing for the year has become more and more a Newport Beach only deal. ("But you others can certainly come along if you want, we could use the money".)

#90 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:52 PM

but no one asked us

Last year NOSA sent a survey to all prior year race participants. I helped with the analysis. 20% of respondents had issues with Mexico in general, and the #1 suggestion was a new venue like the Hotel Coral. Picking the Hotel Coral addressed both issues.

We went to SA for suggestions and comments and received good support for the Hotel Coral; MadMax, Sly McFly, CptKook, among those in favor, no objections.

It was as well informed as we could get.

#91 DoRag

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:32 AM

but no one asked us

Last year NOSA sent a survey to all prior year race participants. I helped with the analysis. 20% of respondents had issues with Mexico in general, and the #1 suggestion was a new venue like the Hotel Coral. Picking the Hotel Coral addressed both issues.

We went to SA for suggestions and comments and received good support for the Hotel Coral; MadMax, Sly McFly, CptKook, among those in favor, no objections.

It was as well informed as we could get.


Again, NOSA misses the mark.

You need to ask the people who dropped out if you want to rebuild the fleet.

Now, why isn't that obvious?

#92 Wash

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 02:25 AM

Time for some answers--- I do not expect any-- other than BS excuses --

Why does NOSA and Bill Gibbs allow powerboat entries in their racing/sailing event to participate under power at night under autopilot with no one paying attention or even on deck? People died last year!! Give me a break---

Why have I had to evade these idiot powerboats multiple times over the years at night in this event at night to save my boat and crew and Bill Gibbs cannot give me any feedback when I have reported it here.

Why when I post up here on SA does a NOSA Board Member blow me off when presented with the facts that the powerboat classes are a danger to real sailing participants?

Sad

#93 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:18 AM

Time for some answers--- I do not expect any-- other than BS excuses --

Why does NOSA and Bill Gibbs allow powerboat entries in their racing/sailing event to participate under power at night under autopilot with no one paying attention or even on deck? People died last year!! Give me a break---

Why have I had to evade these idiot powerboats multiple times over the years at night in this event at night to save my boat and crew and Bill Gibbs cannot give me any feedback when I have reported it here.

Why when I post up here on SA does a NOSA Board Member blow me off when presented with the facts that the powerboat classes are a danger to real sailing participants?

Sad


Wash,
Do you feel that everyone who does not agree with you, is "blowing you off"?
Are all answers you don't like, "bullshit excuses"?

Probably not much hope here, but I'll try again.
I asked for suggestions and comments on N2E, all of which will be discussed by the NOSA BoD. My thanks to everyone who has offered up such, even you.
I am one member. I have expressed my opinions here, not those of NOSA. I do not speak for NOSA. I disagree with some of your opinions. I think SA is a great place to discuss differing opinions.

Anybody can rent or buy a boat, set an autopilot, turn on a motor, and run into something or someone. They do not need me, or NOSA, or a "race" to do this. This is America, land of the free, it is their right. Similarly people die on the freeways in the 10's of thousands each year , but we don't outlaw cars or blame their employers for forcing them to commute.

It is already illegal to be at sea, sail or power, and not maintain a proper watch, day or night. No extra NOSA rules are needed.

Powering boats pass me in the night, when I am racing and when I am transiting. Some are sailboats, some are freighters, some cruise ships and fishermen. None have hit me. On rare occasion I have taken evasive action. This seems normal for night time along the coast. (I was almost run over by an older Pyewhacket, but that was in daylight under sail and is another story)

We maintain a minimum 2 man watch at night. I do not use an autopilot when motoring or ever. My crew & I wear pfds all the time. These are my choices. I have no desire to force them on others. How can any Anarchist promote increased regulation? Do we need to live in a Nanny state? Is there no room for personal responsibility?

You and I can choose when and how we sail and race. Do N2E again or not, its your choice. I plan to do it again, #14. I am unlikely to every match your score.
Once again, these are my personal opinions and do not represent the opinions of NOSA management.
(These conversations are more interesting than watching TV)

#94 DoRag

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 02:32 PM


Time for some answers--- I do not expect any-- other than BS excuses --

Why does NOSA and Bill Gibbs allow powerboat entries in their racing/sailing event to participate under power at night under autopilot with no one paying attention or even on deck? People died last year!! Give me a break---

Why have I had to evade these idiot powerboats multiple times over the years at night in this event at night to save my boat and crew and Bill Gibbs cannot give me any feedback when I have reported it here.

Why when I post up here on SA does a NOSA Board Member blow me off when presented with the facts that the powerboat classes are a danger to real sailing participants?

Sad


Wash,
Do you feel that everyone who does not agree with you, is "blowing you off"?
Are all answers you don't like, "bullshit excuses"?

Probably not much hope here, but I'll try again.
I asked for suggestions and comments on N2E, all of which will be discussed by the NOSA BoD. My thanks to everyone who has offered up such, even you.
I am one member. I have expressed my opinions here, not those of NOSA. I do not speak for NOSA. I disagree with some of your opinions. I think SA is a great place to discuss differing opinions.

Anybody can rent or buy a boat, set an autopilot, turn on a motor, and run into something or someone. They do not need me, or NOSA, or a "race" to do this. This is America, land of the free, it is their right. Similarly people die on the freeways in the 10's of thousands each year , but we don't outlaw cars or blame their employers for forcing them to commute.

It is already illegal to be at sea, sail or power, and not maintain a proper watch, day or night. No extra NOSA rules are needed.

Powering boats pass me in the night, when I am racing and when I am transiting. Some are sailboats, some are freighters, some cruise ships and fishermen. None have hit me. On rare occasion I have taken evasive action. This seems normal for night time along the coast. (I was almost run over by an older Pyewhacket, but that was in daylight under sail and is another story)

We maintain a minimum 2 man watch at night. I do not use an autopilot when motoring or ever. My crew & I wear pfds all the time. These are my choices. I have no desire to force them on others. How can any Anarchist promote increased regulation? Do we need to live in a Nanny state? Is there no room for personal responsibility?

You and I can choose when and how we sail and race. Do N2E again or not, its your choice. I plan to do it again, #14. I am unlikely to every match your score.
Once again, these are my personal opinions and do not represent the opinions of NOSA management.
(These conversations are more interesting than watching TV)


On your point about auto accidents, no, we don't ban cars because they can be dangerous. But we do require a license and training. Youths are supervised and pass a number of tests before they are allowed on the road. Anyone can buy a boat and be enticed into entering an overnight race.

#95 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:18 PM

DoRag,
I don't understand your opposition to cruiser participation. When at sea we cross traffic all the time. Quite often it's best to assume that the other vessel is not going to give way. The cruisers are all of 30 to 50 feet long and doing between 4 to 8 knots. If your watch comes across a cruiser that forces you as a ROW boat to give way, protest them. It's not like there are a bunch of unattended boats on autopilot all lined up and coming to get you. At worst you've probably had to alter course for a short giveway and that's what protests are for. Were you in a neck to neck battle that the other boat used the unattentive cruiser as a pick?

I do agree that NOSA should provide pre race workshops that notify participants of the dangers and precautions that participants should be aware of. But, those work shops are already available at yacht clubs all up and down Southern California. Beyond that if a cruiser chooses to not stand a proper watch or give way appropriately that individual is acting negligently and there are already RRS and Colregs to cover their actions or inactions.

#96 DoRag

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:43 PM

DoRag,
I don't understand your opposition to cruiser participation. When at sea we cross traffic all the time. Quite often it's best to assume that the other vessel is not going to give way. The cruisers are all of 30 to 50 feet long and doing between 4 to 8 knots. If your watch comes across a cruiser that forces you as a ROW boat to give way, protest them. It's not like there are a bunch of unattended boats on autopilot all lined up and coming to get you. At worst you've probably had to alter course for a short giveway and that's what protests are for. Were you in a neck to neck battle that the other boat used the unattentive cruiser as a pick?

I do agree that NOSA should provide pre race workshops that notify participants of the dangers and precautions that participants should be aware of. But, those work shops are already available at yacht clubs all up and down Southern California. Beyond that if a cruiser chooses to not stand a proper watch or give way appropriately that individual is acting negligently and there are already RRS and Colregs to cover their actions or inactions.


The primary objection, as Wash and others pointed out, is that the inclusion of cruisers degrades the event from a race into a circus. I have zero interest in an event that, over the years, has become so twisted and contorted in order to induce more entries. This is the fault of NOSA, which has morphed over onto more cruisers than racers on their Board (this trend is also evident in most YCs, and I have the same opinion for that venue).

On a more personal side, I enjoyed plotting the pressure isobar changes from Daggett for a month before the race. I learned to enjoy the skill of trying to keep a boat moving at night, looking for the wind rivers - as fickle as they may be. That was always when the race was one or lost. That was when the skill of the racing sailor was tested. Not so much when the wind picked up the next afternoon and everyone (except, of course the....cruisers) was hauling into the bay. In recent years, the night fighting has turned from getting the crew onto the leeward rail to instaed watching cruisers motor on by, perhaps with the hibachi going, and, later on in the night, only the helmsman on deck. And that is why I opt not to particpate any longer and have somehow misplaced all those yellow pennants I used to fly from the first spreader with some measure of pride and many memories of fine races with fun people.

The NOSA Boards over the recent years have so contorted the event is a misguided attempt to increase participation that the event has lost it's heart. My position wasn't so much that I would get run over, that was Wash's position. We dealt with the motoring idiots by having a spotlight handy and keeping a watch aft.

#97 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:06 PM

The light air predominant late April/ early May scheduling of the race has always been frustrating to me. The fickle nature of where you'll find a lane of pressure in the early morning hours inside Todos Santos Bay has quite often made this race more like a game of chutes and ladders. I can't count how many Mexico (Cabo/ PV) races I've been on that we've screamed past Ensenada in the late evening thinking now would be a much better time to run a Newport to Ensenada if the goal were hard core racing. But, I decided a lo ng time ago that N2E is more about getting people exposed to sailing and the cross border experience, than it was about being the penultimate yacht race of the Southern California yacht racing calendar.

#98 DoRag

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:23 PM

The light air predominant late April/ early May scheduling of the race has always been frustrating to me. The fickle nature of where you'll find a lane of pressure in the early morning hours inside Todos Santos Bay has quite often made this race more like a game of chutes and ladders. I can't count how many Mexico (Cabo/ PV) races I've been on that we've screamed past Ensenada in the late evening thinking now would be a much better time to run a Newport to Ensenada if the goal were hard core racing. But, I decided a lo ng time ago that N2E is more about getting people exposed to sailing and the cross border experience, than it was about being the penultimate yacht race of the Southern California yacht racing calendar.


In the good days, N2E had 600 racers participating. In that sense, it clearly was the most popular race in SoCal. And everyone raced!

#99 Somebody Else

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:30 PM

I decided a lo ng time ago that N2E is more about getting people exposed to sailing and the cross border experience, than it was about being the penultimate yacht race of the Southern California yacht racing calendar.

I'm confused.
Why would N2E strive to be 2nd best?
Which race is the ultimate?

#100 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:09 PM

I decided a lo ng time ago that N2E is more about getting people exposed to sailing and the cross border experience, than it was about being the penultimate yacht race of the Southern California yacht racing calendar.

I'm confused.
Why would N2E strive to be 2nd best?
Which race is the ultimate?

TransPac of course :P




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