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A new hull to carve...starting one of Bob's


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#1 Gatekeeper

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:44 PM

I started Mirage 30 this week...the boat has a special connection to Dick Steffan who owned Mirage Yachts.

Bob was nice enough provide the lines.

So here we go....

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#2 Gatekeeper

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:49 PM

I bought a new band saw...the job of cutting lifts was much easier.

So now in a 10 x 12', unheated workshop I have a bandsaw, 12" bench planer, 10" table saw, 10" miter saw, 20 feet of bench, and a power bench sander...I run a lean operation :)

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#3 Joli

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:22 PM

Looks good Gate. How do you make all that equipment fit in a 10 by 12 building?

#4 ice9a

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:32 PM

I bought a new band saw...the job of cutting lifts was much easier.

So now in a 10 x 12', unheated workshop I have a bandsaw, 12" bench planer, 10" table saw, 10" miter saw, 20 feet of bench, and a power bench sander...I run a lean operation :)


Trash it all and get one (small) 5 axis (CAD/CAM) milling machine. Wait . . . NO! Then you would be doing all your work on the computer, rather than feeling the wood with your hands. But wait . . . .YES! Then you could make really neat aluminum and G10 parts also. . . . . Hell I don't know, I have not had my coffee yet.

#5 Gatekeeper

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:45 PM

Looks good Gate. How do you make all that equipment fit in a 10 by 12 building?


I'll take some pics...I can't decribee it, it just works

#6 Slick470

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:05 AM

I'm very interested in your layout Gate. As part of an ongoing house renovation project we put in a new basement workshop space under a dining room addition. I've been playing with the layout for quite a while, but very curious to see how you've optimized your small space.

#7 hobot

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:29 AM

Bench top is starting to get that "broken in" look!

#8 Zonker

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:47 AM

Yes, and consider the smaller 3D printers. They're getting much cheaper. Print out the hull, sand off the deposit lines and voila - a half hull model with a lot less work. I know a professional model builder going that route now. He requests 3D hull + superstructure model and goes to town with it.

#9 Gatekeeper

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:57 PM

Ok Slick...here ya go. Most of my tools are high end (by hobbiest standard) except the band saw. I really couldn't find a good quality bench mount version. This one works quite well, just a bit slow.

My next one will be full height on rollers.

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#10 Joli

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:48 PM

Looks good Gate. Not sure if you have room or have considered it but I use a cyclone dust collector for my major tools, especially the planer and the sander.

#11 Soņadora

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:29 PM

that's awesome, Gate. I talked to SWMBO about adding a shop like that to the garage. She replied, "then we'll never see you."

#12 Jim in Halifax

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:17 PM

I started Mirage 30 this week...the boat has a special connection to Dick Steffan who owned Mirage Yachts.

Bob was nice enough provide the lines.

So here we go....

Anyone know if Dick Steffan is still around? I used to crew for him and other Flying Dutchman skippers back in the 70's - they were a crazy bunch. Mirage Yachts office was just up the street from the Pointe Claire Yacht Club. They built some really nice boats.

#13 Jose Carumba

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:28 PM

Gate, that shop must get pretty cold in the winter. I didn't see any insulation. Do you have a good heater?

#14 Bob Perry

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

Jim:
Dick Steffan lives in Florida. I talked to him about a year ago. I think he still races dinghies. I enjoyed working for him a lot. I was pissed when he had Harle design his last models. They never reached the level of succes that my Mirages did.

#15 Jim in Halifax

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:47 PM

Agreed. Your designs and the old C&C designed 24 were the best.

#16 Gatekeeper

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

Bob

When you are building and marketing boats in Quebec...Steffan likely thought it was a good move to have a French name in the fold. I guess it didn't work out as well as planned.

#17 Gatekeeper

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:00 PM

Gate, that shop must get pretty cold in the winter. I didn't see any insulation. Do you have a good heater?


No heat, and it does get cold...however I find that when I'm working I kinda put it out of my mind.

#18 Bob Perry

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:08 PM

I think Dick was after a more Euro look than I was capable or willing to give him. Harle's design were very good looking.

#19 Gatekeeper

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:11 PM

I think Dick was after a more Euro look than I was capable or willing to give him. Harle's design were very good looking.


Ohhhh....the Euro-trash factor.

I agree about his "look", I've always liked the M39.

#20 Slick470

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:19 PM

Very nice Gate. I can see that you have put some thought into the layout. I really like the depressed miter saw platform and may have to work something like that into mine when I get to that point. I'm also jealous on the garage door as it would help with running longer boards through the table saw. I have a similar table saw and I can pull it up the stairs to the driveway if need be, but it's a pain.

I'm going to lift your pictures off of here to save in an ideas folder. Thanks!

#21 Gatekeeper

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:36 PM

Slick

The sander also slides left-right depending on where the "tail" of the piece I'm working on extends.

#22 Rasputin22

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:28 PM

I knew a guy with a small garage shop and he had a bench with the dropdown cutout for the miter box much like yours. The neat thing was that that bench ran the full length of the shop (16') and there was also a cutout that held his 12" thickness planer with its infeed and outfeed rollers just a hair above the bench and the real genius was that there were a pair of 16" square petdoors in the wall one at each end so he could back his truck right up and unload his lumber stock right onto the bench for planing and cutting to length and the planks would run right out the petdoors on either end. Kept his heat in.

#23 Gatekeeper

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:47 PM

Back on track...

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#24 sculpin

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:47 PM

Good shop Gate. But where are the stereo speakers??? I have a pair of huge JBLs in mine that get cranked on occasion... My shop is the basement cave, a bit bigger than yours but not much. For cold I find an IR heater works well, it heats me and doesn't require everything get up to temp. Hard to cure epoxy though! B)

#25 ice9a

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:08 AM

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#26 Gatekeeper

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:35 AM


Back on track...

That doesn't look like a Douglas 31' ??? LOL. Nice shop. I ordered a boat from this miniature boat shop. Gate your the man and the offer to ride the canal after you put your boat to bed stands.cap10ed



It doesn't?? Crap....wrong lines!!!


Ice...you don't seem to be grasping the "hand crafted" part of this art. How much would you value a photo copy of the Mona Lisa??

#27 ice9a

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:58 PM

Ice...you don't seem to be grasping the "hand crafted" part of this art. How much would you value a photo copy of the Mona Lisa??


For the first part: I suspect Sons, and other CADer's, would tell you there is a lot of "art" in making the CAD that goes into the 3d printer. . . . a potential for lots of details that would make the model more personal and individual.

For the second part: If the copy of the Mona Lisa was identical and indistinguishable from the original . . . we get to something like does the tree unseen/unheard falling in the forest make a sound?

But shit, if you are making the equivalent of Mona Lisa's . . . carry on.

#28 Gatekeeper

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:04 PM

ice

Never mind...I'm sorry I responded to you...carry on.

#29 ice9a

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:10 PM

ice

Never mind...I'm sorry I responded to you...carry on.


Gate, just having fun. Don't go away mad. It's beautiful what you are doing. But I do think the CAD/3d printer output is just as much ART.

No offense intended, of course.

#30 Soņadora

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:17 PM


ice

Never mind...I'm sorry I responded to you...carry on.


Gate, just having fun. Don't go away mad. It's beautiful what you are doing. But I do think the CAD/3d printer output is just as much ART.

No offense intended, of course.


Part of the problem here is that a 3D printer is 'perfect'. Sure, gate does a great job making his models fair, but it's the small imperfections that give it character. Maybe even imperfections that are imperceptible, but are still 'there'.

Don't get me wrong, I truly dig 3D printers, but there is a lot to be said for the way Gate's doing it.

BTW, that Replicator is cool. Looks like someone finally perfected the RepRap machines.

#31 Gatekeeper

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:25 PM

Son's

Sometimes a direct reproduction actually doesn't look right and very small tweaks have to be made so it looks right to the eye...one big one is removing the camber on the deck (Bob's insistence)...there are many tiny one's in each hull.

I am a huge distance from "perfect", but when I make a serious improvement in my skill level it not because of a software update.

That said...I do love fine engineering and the 3D machines very impressive.

#32 SemiSalt

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:01 PM

A guy in my office has a model of Stars & Stripes (2000 version) that he got in return for a contribution to the cause. It's plastic, of course. I presume the original was made with care but not accuracy (don't want to give away the exact hull shape). The decorative details are decals. The result is not art. It doesn't help that the backboard is warped.

A better example than the Mona Lisa is the duck decoy. You can buy mass produced ones for not much, but the handmade ones from the famous makers sell for very high prices.

#33 Soņadora

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:26 PM

and for some irony, I should post the RP model I made of a baba 30. It's horribly wrong, but still looks cool. I did the best I could with 'lines' from old Baba brochures. Plus my 3D modeling skills were seriously lacking back then. I was fortunate to have Stratasys as one of my customers. They made the model as a test piece.

#34 ice9a

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:56 PM

the duck decoy. You can buy mass produced ones for not much, but the handmade ones from the famous makers sell for very high prices.

I should post the RP model I made of a baba 30. It's horribly wrong, but still looks cool.



Just as background, I used to make queen ann furniture as a hobby. The last piece I made - a writing desk - took me a year. Just as one detail, I used to cut the dovetails by hand with a chisel. The dovetails were not identical nor were they exactly symmetrical. I thought they looked better (more artistic) that way than those cut with a router and template. So I have at least a little appreciation of both the skill and art we are talking about.

I have thought about what it would mean to make that furniture CAD/CAM. You would have to use a multi axis routing machine, and not a printer, because the wood grain and texture was essential to the finished product (vs plastic). BUT you could easily CAD in asymmetrical and non-identical dovetails, and any other such features that were important to the Art of the piece. I believe the Art would be the same, but that the skill would be different (woodworking vs CAD). There simply needs to be a recognition that at this level the CAD does not need to be 'perfect' (as in regular and identical features and symmetrical) and may in fact produce a better final piece if more work is put in to make in 'imperfect'.

In the model duck situation (and also the Mona Lisa), one aspect of the art (beyond that they are well designed and made - which you could do in CAD/CAM) that is valued is that it is one of a kind, original and un-duplicated. If that were your aim, you could easily delete your CAD files after the single CAM run.

In Gate's case, if there are optical features necessary to get the piece to look right at this scale, you can do that just as well in CAD. It would require practice and knowledge, just as in wood, to get it right.

Also in Gate's case, I personally think it would add Art to have the ability (with the printer) to make the small details (toe rail, anchor roller, etc) that (to me) make the model much more personal.

Since Gate's pieces are, I think, mostly painted, I am not sure if the plastic vs wood effects the Art.

#35 SemiSalt

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:09 PM

If that were your aim, you could easily delete your CAD files after the single CAM run.


Like destroying the printing plate after a limited run of etchings.

#36 Balder

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:29 AM

that's awesome, Gate. I talked to SWMBO about adding a shop like that to the garage. She replied, "then we'll never see you."


Was that supposed to be a negative? My ex would have paid for something like that. I let her off a lot cheaper though!

#37 miscut jib

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:23 AM

Also in Gate's case, I personally think it would add Art to have the ability (with the printer) to make the small details (toe rail, anchor roller, etc) that (to me) make the model much more personal.


Sure you could create an extraordinarily detailed computer model. There's some great rendering talent here and you could make great pictures based on it from an almost infinite number of angles. With that in mind whats the point to a physical model at all? They aren't for use in building any more, they are a decoration for pleasure. With that in mind I'd much rather to have them "handmade" (as beautiful as Gates look) than "computer made" much as I value paintings more than most computer printings

#38 Jose Carumba

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:54 PM

It's in the 'doing' it seems to me. From choosing the wood to cutting the lifts to carving the finished model thete is a visual and tactile sensualness to the whole process which you just don't get with CAD/CAM. Cad is what I would call a numb process which doesn't give you the satisfaction of actually feeling your work in progress.

Designing in imperfections is just sad. More like forgery to me than honest design and construction where the goal is perfection. Mistakes and imperfections happen but the craftsman certainly didn't intend them.

I design boats for a living using CAD, 5 axis milling, RP models etc.

#39 ice9a

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:20 PM

Cad is what I would call a numb process which doesn't give you the satisfaction of actually feeling your work in progress.

​ Perhaps you are more of a tactile than a visual person? How is CAD different than an oil color in this regard? You tell Sons that he is not working with either texture or feeling - there is a ton of 'mood' in his work. Why can't you enjoy and 'feel' the CAD work in progress?

Designing in imperfections is just sad. More like forgery to me than honest design and construction where the goal is perfection. Mistakes and imperfections happen but the craftsman certainly didn't intend them

Gate has already said that he has learned to build in imperfections because the models don't look right without them - he said he designed them in. It's designing in Art, not imperfections. If you were going to design a duck decoy you would certainly NOT make all the feathers look the exactly the same. You would design in variation because life has variation. In a engineering work product would you make it non-life like and 'perfect', in Art you would not.

I design boats for a living using CAD, 5 axis milling, RP models etc.

Yes, and that's probably part of 'the problem'. You see it as a work tool rather than as Art. But it's just like a paint brush, you can use it for work to make the topsides gloss white or you can use in quite a different way for Art to paint the mona lisa.



#40 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:32 PM

I treat my acad drawings like art. I think they are beautiful, most of the time.
I have one half model done by CNC. Keel and rudder are milled alu. It's a nice model.
But I wanted a model. Gate wants to build a model. He likes playing with wood.
I don't want any imperfections in my models. I want strict adherance to the design. I seldom get it. The good old "hand of man" will make itself known. That's fine.

Scott Chambers has made most of my models. Sometimes he asks me how I want it finished and I tell him to use his own judgement. I like to see the creative side of the model maker.
When Gate did my SLIVER model he told me he was going to paint the whole model dark red. I said fine.

I can't see where the argument is here.

#41 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:08 PM


Art seems to be the correct application of distortion.

Be it Jimmy Hendrix, a slight asymmetry to a woman's smile, or the rough surface of hand plastered walls; perfection in art is the application of imperfection in exactly the right way.

BV

#42 Gatekeeper

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:10 PM

Beau...that's deep man. Where's my tie dyed shirt??

#43 Ishmael

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

Beau...that's deep man. Where's my tie dyed shirt??


You don't remember eating it? Acid's like that, man.

#44 Jose Carumba

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:26 PM


Cad is what I would call a numb process which doesn't give you the satisfaction of actually feeling your work in progress.

​ Perhaps you are more of a tactile than a visual person? How is CAD different than an oil color in this regard? You tell Sons that he is not working with either texture or feeling - there is a ton of 'mood' in his work. Why can't you enjoy and 'feel' the CAD work in progress?

Designing in imperfections is just sad. More like forgery to me than honest design and construction where the goal is perfection. Mistakes and imperfections happen but the craftsman certainly didn't intend them

Gate has already said that he has learned to build in imperfections because the models don't look right without them - he said he designed them in. It's designing in Art, not imperfections. If you were going to design a duck decoy you would certainly NOT make all the feathers look the exactly the same. You would design in variation because life has variation. In a engineering work product would you make it non-life like and 'perfect', in Art you would not.

I design boats for a living using CAD, 5 axis milling, RP models etc.

Yes, and that's probably part of 'the problem'. You see it as a work tool rather than as Art. But it's just like a paint brush, you can use it for work to make the topsides gloss white or you can use in quite a different way for Art to paint the mona lisa.


1. Have you ever painted in oil? Did you feel the drag of the brush on the canvas?

2. I'm not talking about a change deliberately incorporated into a work. I am talking about modeling in dovetail imperfections to make it look hand made. Additionally,while I did not mention computer rendering I definitely think it is artful and I think that Son's and Rasp are among the best at it.

3. I have a problem? Gee thanks. No, I understand art in CAD. I try to make my cad work just as artful as Bob does with line weights, etc., but it's not as tactile as "traditional" art.

People have many different opinions about art. It's pretty subjective.




#45 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:32 PM

Beau...that's deep man. Where's my tie dyed shirt??


Dude, I live in Santa Cruzzzzz now, I hafta' keep up 'peerences.

B

#46 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:39 PM

Jose:
There is nothing quite like sliding a 4H pencil down a long spline.
I love the smell of Scum-X in the morning.

#47 Jose Carumba

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:44 PM

Jose:
There is nothing quite like sliding a 4H pencil down a long spline.
I love the smell of Scum-X in the morning.


It smells like....... art.

#48 ice9a

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:47 PM

I have no idea why I am arguing this . . . makes absolutely no difference to me if people think CAD and 3d printers could not possibly produce art. So, this is my last on the subject . . .

1. Have you ever painted in oil? Did you feel the drag of the brush on the canvas?

It's a different skill. Simply because you don't have brush drag in your hand, To my mind, does not make CAD not art.

2. I'm not talking about a change deliberately incorporated into a work. I am talking about modeling in dovetail imperfections to make it look hand made. Additionally,while I did not mention computer rendering I definitely think it is artful and I think that Son's and Rasp are among the best at it.

​Non-symmetrical dovetails would be made, not because they look hand made (which would be phony), but because they look better than regular ones (which is artistic).

3. I have a problem? Gee thanks. No, I understand art in CAD. I try to make my cad work just as artful as Bob does with line weights, etc., but it's not as tactile as "traditional" art.

I did not say you had a problem, I said there was one. Subtle but important difference. I was suggesting that because CAD has come from the work and engineering place it has developed this reputation for only producing regular and 'perfect' results when in fact it can be used just as well as a paint brush to produce asymmetrical and life like and moody work.

People have many different opinions about art. It's pretty subjective.

Certainly is. And that awareness should allow people to realize that CAD/CAM is a tool, it can produce engineering, but it also can produce art.



#49 Rasputin22

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:01 AM

Jose:
There is nothing quite like sliding a 4H pencil down a long spline.
I love the smell of Scum-X in the morning.


Bob,

For those who don't know what Scum-X is might take a dim view of what you are describing here. But I doubt that you would really care... Jose, I appreciate your comments and I have had a lot of fun and learned a lot from my efforts with Gate in creating the lines drawings for the models that he couldn't get from the designers. His craft and art have their own place just as any other manner in which to create half hulls or other models. I used to work for a well known model shop that did stuff for the offshore commercial market as well as the military. We were just starting to get work from the yacht builders and had a job from Trinity. I scaled and extracted and created laser cut files for a myriad of little parts that out craftsmen would use to do the assembly and painting to make the final model but then took the 3d model and did some renders as a bonus for the client. My boss went ballistic as he thought the 3D renders would make the hand and machine built real model obsolete. I'm convinced that despite the increasing photorealism that is possible with a 3d model render, those will never replace the substantive nature of a real model, even if CAD/CAM technology might be a part of that process. Somewhere along the line, there will be some artist input. It might be a 4H pencil along a tapered spline held in place with lead ducks or a Rhino loose loft from a series of sections or a curve carefully cut on a bandsaw, but you don't ever get something (worthwhile) from nothing. Good on Gates for his craft and effort and I hope to work with him in the future.

Rasp
\
Posted Image

#50 kdh

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:24 AM


Jose:
There is nothing quite like sliding a 4H pencil down a long spline.
I love the smell of Scum-X in the morning.

...some artist input. It might be a 4H pencil along a tapered spline held in place with lead ducks


I just realized that the term "spline" made it into the math modeling world. Definition: piece-wise polynomials with joints constrained with calculus-style smoothness constraints. Not what you get as pictured with a real spline. Each duck is a constraint, and the wooden spline has a more visceral smoothness.

#51 lelou

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:05 AM

Just a little bit on Mr. Steffan: He lives a few houses down here in Montreal. The dinghy he sails is an Etchell - not really a dinghy, but it has some of the looks.
Mirage yachts died when the whole market died here: no more room in the yacht clubs, too many good used boats on the market, around 1982. Both the Harlé and Perry designs were on catalog, but neither sold. CS, Tanzer, Aloha went the same way at the same time.
It was a sad time for boat construction in Québec.

#52 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:07 PM

Tea:
Glad you are not going to argue anymore. Your argument made no sense at all.

#53 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:01 PM

Rasper:
I have never seen ducks and a spline used quite like that. I am used to plastic splines with a groove on the top.. Not sure I'd like my trusty 4h to bump into the ducks.
I have never had the pleasure of using a tapered wooden spline. I don't think I have ever even seen one.

#54 Rasputin22

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:22 PM

Yeah Bob,

I had the plastic ones with the grooves on top like you mention. I made some wooden ones that were tapered near the ends that were easier to fit sometimes. I had a nice stash of ashwood that was great for splines. I also had one of those inter-locking ones that supposedly held their shape like the one you told the story of leaving it on the window sill and warping, did that too. Here is the webpage where I saw that photo in which they are using way too many ducks in my opinion. They make and sell ducks and will even paint them like real ducks if you want.

Posted Image

They make great stocking stuffers for Christmas!

http://www.boatsofwood.com/lofting%20ducks/lofting_ducks.htm

I poured a few of my own ducks using a mold I made that looked like a stylized whale. It worked pretty good and was unique but the hook coming out of his head made him look like a Narwhale.

BTW, today is the 161st anniversary of Moby DIck...

Posted Image

#55 Jose Carumba

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:51 PM

Tapered splines are sweet for applications where you need a little more curvature at the ends or in the middle. The old German Chief naval Architect here had a set of splines with various tapers and I was lucky enough to use them a few times. Another German shipwright I worked with earlier swore that Pear wood made the best splines I used one of his on a short job and they were very nice. He was going to get me a set the next time he went back to Germany but I never heard from him after the job was over. I still have a set of splines for the day when the power goes out, ha! In the shop we still use splines on the odd occasion we need to build a hand made mold or when laying out perimeters on our flat and cambered fiberglass tables.

Edit: Definitely agree there are way too many ducks on that spline in the picture.

#56 Rasputin22

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:39 PM

That many splines is what we used to call the 'If it don't fit, force it!' school of thought. Working on the loft floor taught me a lot about how and where to place the icepicks that serve the same purpose as the ducks on the drawing board. One neat trick was to use a length of hardware store screen door spring between the lofting batten and the icepick and the batten seemed to naturally take a fair curve. I guess the analogy would be the way the control points on a NURBS curve in CAD are not on the line itself.

#57 Jose Carumba

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:29 PM

That many splines is what we used to call the 'If it don't fit, force it!' school of thought. Working on the loft floor taught me a lot about how and where to place the icepicks that serve the same purpose as the ducks on the drawing board. One neat trick was to use a length of hardware store screen door spring between the lofting batten and the icepick and the batten seemed to naturally take a fair curve. I guess the analogy would be the way the control points on a NURBS curve in CAD are not on the line itself.

That's pretty cool. I have never heard of that technique. And I suppose if you changed the strength of the spring it would be analogous to changing the control point weight. I suspect you had to be careful when laying down the line to go lightly in that area in order not to disturb the batten.

#58 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:37 PM

Geeesh! You guys are makin' my head hurt. I thought you ate ducks.... those don't look very tasty.

BV

#59 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:49 PM

I never tried the spring thing either. I'd be concerned about the batten moving. I always used nails but I knew better than to try to force the batten. I did have to cajole it a few times though.
Given the fact that my left knee and I are barely on speaking terms I don't think a day on the loft floor would be much fun anymore.

#60 Rasputin22

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:31 PM


That many splines is what we used to call the 'If it don't fit, force it!' school of thought. Working on the loft floor taught me a lot about how and where to place the icepicks that serve the same purpose as the ducks on the drawing board. One neat trick was to use a length of hardware store screen door spring between the lofting batten and the icepick and the batten seemed to naturally take a fair curve. I guess the analogy would be the way the control points on a NURBS curve in CAD are not on the line itself.

That's pretty cool. I have never heard of that technique. And I suppose if you changed the strength of the spring it would be analogous to changing the control point weight. I suspect you had to be careful when laying down the line to go lightly in that area in order not to disturb the batten.


Jose,

Good point about the batten moving and Bob brings that up as well. We bought icepicks by the gross as they were quicker and easier to use than nails and when we had the batten sitting right where it belonged 'suspended' by the springs connected to the control point icepicks, we would then add pairs of picks on either side of the batten to sort of freeze it in place before striking the line. We had an assortment of springs of different lengths and strengths as well so you could like you say weight your control points is a similar manner to what we to with rational B-splines in software. That and the spline cross section and material and sometimes taper gave us plenty of options. I'm not sure who gets the original credit for all of that knee cracking and back aching stuff, but I was working for Bill Seemann (C-Flex, SCRIMP) in New Orleans and I imagine that Bill might have picked the idea up from the guys over at Tommy Dreyfus and New Orleans Marine. Dave Sintes was another boatbuilder and innovator in the neighborhood who might have contributed. Dave was probably the most pragmatic guy I ever met and has probably built more C-Flex boats than anyone and was always looking for ways to work more efficiently, since he had lost most of a hand in Nam, but he never let that slow him down. As I think about the spring and batten trick, it may have just been the result of the fact that we had that assortment of springs on hand which were an integral element in Bill's Rube Goldberg inspired machine that made the C-Flex. Bill was a tinkerer at heart and that machine was a wonder.

#61 VALIS

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:41 AM

2. I'm not talking about a change deliberately incorporated into a work. I am talking about modeling in dovetail imperfections to make it look hand made. Additionally,while I did not mention computer rendering I definitely think it is artful and I think that Son's and Rasp are among the best at it.


Computer-generated doesn't have to feel sterile, or be "perfect". For example, in music, programmed drum tracks can be given both randomized and cyclical deviations from the metronome tick. In this way they can emulate the way a drummer "pushes" or plays around the beat as the song develops.

For an example of "too perfect", watch "Rock of Ages" (the recent movie with Tom Cruise). It's a mediocre film at best, but has it's moments. What I found extremely annoying was how they autotuned all the vocal performances. Any nuance in pitch was eliminated and the result sounded sterile and unnatural. It sounded like robots singing. Singing very well mind you, but still robots.

By the way, I really like how Gatekeepers models are looking.

#62 goob

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

Here is a pic of Gates 12th model, I have not found the right place to hang it yet! Is a an Islander Bahama 30 and he and rasp did a great job of it. Also like the discussion about printing vs hand modeled, and gotta say for this project I love the hand working.
attachment=183837:P1000768 2.jpg]

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#63 Gatekeeper

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:00 PM

Goob and Cap...

Thank you both. You made my day!

#64 Gatekeeper

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:48 PM

At least these five will be safe for the time being...6 weeks of work, ready to depart.

The Mirage and a Beneteau now occupy the shop and bench.

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#65 sailman

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 06:05 PM

At least these five will be safe for the time being...6 weeks of work, ready to depart.

The Mirage and a Beneteau now occupy the shop and bench.


Very nice Dan!

#66 Gatekeeper

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:14 AM

All done...

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#67 Bob Perry

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:16 AM

That's our boy Dan!

Sometimes when clients come to my office and bring their wives the wives will ask, "Do you build all these models Bob?"
I say, "Yes I do."

I'm evil.

#68 Gatekeeper

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:23 AM

Bob

I don't think I'm telling any tales out of school to say that you did amazingly well just to hang up your models let alone carve them.

Don't feel bad little buddy, I can't design a boat, which is almost as hard as carving them.

:P

#69 Bob Perry

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

Dan:
You are right. But it's nice once and a while to pretend I have a way with tools. When really I not have way.

#70 lelou

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

The eagle has landed Dan, and my parents were overwhelmed. I have seen lots of pictures but the real thing will have to wait 'till the weekend.

Etienne

#71 Gatekeeper

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:28 PM

Etienne's mother tracked me down and called me last night...no lady could be more gracious to talk to (except my mom but it's likely a tie).

I love this job.

#72 familysailor

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:02 PM

Great Thread!

As to the wherabouts of the tie dyed shirt... I'm wearing it at the moment.


My recollection of Skum-X (bags) is that it made a great projectile weapon when the drafting teacher was out of the room during high School Drafting classes. The bags left a lot of residue on the intended target, but helped disguise the dandruff.

#73 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

Family:
I forgot about flinging the Scum-X around the classroom. Good old memory almost lost.
Thanks.

When you stop by th shack we take turns throwing my last Scum-X bag at each other. I wonder if you can even buy it anymore.

For those of you not of the old fashioned hand drafting pursuasion, Scum-X is a cotton bag about 4.5" long and 1.75" thick filled with fine eraser crumbs that ooze out of the bag. In your hand it feels a lot like dread rat. You rub the bag over your drawing paper to clean it up and get it ready for inking. Or, you throw it at the back of the head of some kid you don't like much or maybe at the back of the head of some girl you do like much. Don't recall any girls in mechanical drawing in the early 60's. I'd remember that.

#74 Jose Carumba

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:02 PM

Can I come? I'llbring my Scum-X and a set of ship's curves for a sword fight afterwards.

#75 Bob Perry

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:28 PM

You are on Jose.

Did you ever take a drawing and roll it up until the ID was about .5" then make a paper cone of .5" OD 2" long, cram some drafting
"play dough" into the tip of the cone and then drive a pin through the point? You could make a lethal blow dart gun. At Marine Weight Control we would shoot these darts the length of the drafting room and stick them into the bulletin board. It was amazing just how well they worked.

#76 kimbottles

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:43 PM

You are on Jose.

Did you ever take a drawing and roll it up until the ID was about .5" then make a paper cone of .5" OD 2" long, cram some drafting
"play dough" into the tip of the cone and then drive a pin through the point? You could make a lethal blow dart gun. At Marine Weight Control we would shoot these darts the length of the drafting room and stick them into the bulletin board. It was amazing just how well they worked.


"Lethal blow dart gun"

Damn, I am watching my back next time I am at the Maestro's office.

#77 Rasputin22

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:15 PM

You are on Jose.

Did you ever take a drawing and roll it up until the ID was about .5" then make a paper cone of .5" OD 2" long, cram some drafting
"play dough" into the tip of the cone and then drive a pin through the point? You could make a lethal blow dart gun. At Marine Weight Control we would shoot these darts the length of the drafting room and stick them into the bulletin board. It was amazing just how well they worked.


Bob,

I'm not sure that you should be revealing that trade secret about the paper darts. When I was attending the Architecture School at Auburn, the Industrial Design goons in the basement took that technology to its highest. The curtain rods in our dorm rooms were the telescoping tube type and when pulled apart yielded two 3 foot blowgun barrels of slightly different caliber. The paper cones were best made from glossy magazine stock cut into 1.5" strips and could be quickly formed into tapered cones and we usually just licked the ends at the tip to make them stick. When dry you simple dropped them into the larger 'Magnum' barrel till it stopped due to the taper and then withdraw about 1/8" and slice cleanly across the tube rim with a single edged razor blade or Exacto knife. The 1/8" gave just the right clearance for maximum muzzle velocity. We would make up a whole quiver of these and then have dorm wide raging battles late at night. The range and accuracy was astounding! Once shot, you could gather the darts up and re-trim them to the smaller diameter tube and reuse. Of course it eventually escalated to 4 penny finish nails wound into the tips which were affixed with some masking tape and these could be shot through the first ply of the cheap hollow core doors in the dorm. Some of the Bubba's with hunting backgrounds could actually 'nail' squirrels with these 'hunting rounds' but they were wisely banned from the manhunt battles.
On a summer construction job, I brought home some 25 caliber Ramset cartridges which were essentially blank rimfire rounds used to drive hardened pins into concrete slabs to fix the groundplates for studwall construction. I discovered that these cartridges could we wound into the tip of a dart to make an explosive round that had great psych value against the opposing forces. They wouldn't detonate against a 'soft' target (i.e. classmate) but when aimed at a concrete wall right over an opponents head it would go off with a blast and create an impressive shower of paper confetti.
Those Industrial Design types were like the Delta Force or SEALS in our campus escapades. The things they could do with a CO2 fire extinguisher!!!




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