2361 replies to this topic

[Kiwing]

is LR out there learning?

[Boybland]

is LR out there learning?

http://www.wynyard-quarter.co.nz/Wynyard-Quarter/Media/Webcam.aspx
Time lapse shows zero activity so far.

[SimonN]

Some of you have very short and selective memories. ETNZ went to the jury in an attempt to be appointed COR after AR got the job in accordance with the protocol. GD did all he could to become COR, so how you can say ETNZ didn't want it is beyond me.

ETNZ did want to be CoR - Coutts didn't want them, hence they engineered the receipt of AR's application at 1 second past midnight. GGYC, courtesy of Ehman, ignored ETNZ's requests for clarification before being forced to do so by the IJ - who roundly criticised them for it.

And therein the antagonism from OR-AR to ETNZ was born.....

Agreed. I wasn't aiming my comments at you, but the redicuous post which has now been deleted which suggested that ETNZ didn't want to be COR because it would get in the way of what was important.

[Kiwing]

is LR out there learning?

http://www.wynyard-q...dia/Webcam.aspx
Time lapse shows zero activity so far.

Thanks for that webcam.
I can look in both now but I can't steer the Spencer one yet.

[Boybland]

is LR out there learning?

http://www.wynyard-q...dia/Webcam.aspx
Time lapse shows zero activity so far.

Thanks for that webcam.
I can look in both now but I can't steer the Spencer one yet.

No worries.
Yeah it's great, one of those time lapse ones basically lets you see the entire day showing both launch points, really easy to check if they went out or not.
For the record I can never get control of the Spencer one either even when it seems no one else is driving...

[Indio]

Some of you have very short and selective memories. ETNZ went to the jury in an attempt to be appointed COR after AR got the job in accordance with the protocol. GD did all he could to become COR, so how you can say ETNZ didn't want it is beyond me.

ETNZ did want to be CoR - Coutts didn't want them, hence they engineered the receipt of AR's application at 1 second past midnight. GGYC, courtesy of Ehman, ignored ETNZ's requests for clarification before being forced to do so by the IJ - who roundly criticised them for it.

And therein the antagonism from OR-AR to ETNZ was born.....

Agreed. I wasn't aiming my comments at you, but the redicuous post which has now been deleted which suggested that ETNZ didn't want to be COR because it would get in the way of what was important.

No harm, no foul...Ironically, had ETNZ become CoR, they may have influenced the choice of boat and thus the number of challengers who may have signed up for AC34.

[KiwiJoker]

Kiwi Spy writes: "And then there is ACRM which seems to be sailing straight down the middle, where before ACM and its predessors were very much in the Defender's pocket. Not so now."

If future competitors see the importance of this independence to the quality of an America's Cup competion, the status afforded ACRM in AC34 may prove to be a legacy rarely matched in sport: A Defender who is entitled, legally, to shape aspects of the race to suit his changing needs foregoes this unique advantage, thereby making himself accountable as any other competitor. Now that we have an alternative to the Cups history of well earned dominance before the boats are in the water, the next Defender will have a lesson of his choosing. Shall he repeat the legally recognized participants mistake of interjecting a recognized authority into the Cup competition or will he continue the practice, knowing all along that granting such authority to ACRM is disretionary on the part of the Defender and, once granted, is not the Defender's to change?

As best I can tell, America's Cup races have not been juried in the manner the sailing community entrusts to ACRM, with its current staffing. Schuyler's perpetual competition among nations has never been just another yacht race and so subject to the regulations that commonly apply, including how disputes among the participants are to be resolved. Bear in mind though that granting a Challenger the status of 'challenger of record' is an artifact of today's competition. Any future competition could be settled by the Defender and a Challenger, singular. With two parties engaged there is no role for ACRM, save to measure LWL and other technical issues that demand independent hands hold the ruler. A dispute over a competitor presenting his boat for measurement ("Here is where the hull leaves the water!") and a dispute as to how to read the language that describes such a presentation are not the same. ACRM's welcome to speak to the latter comes at the invitation of GGYC and the Swedish challenger. Whether such oversight will come again and so pass from special authority to common practice will wait on the decision of a future Defender and likley, how he makes his choice of Challenger.

First and foremost, America's Cup races have never "been juried in the manner the sailing community entrusts to ACRM." The sailing community has nothing to do it with. Under the Deed of Gift it is the sole provenance of challenger and defender to settle on the terms for the match.

Your discussion rests on the shaky expectation that the next winner of the Cup might enter into an agreement with their chosen challenger that all other hopefuls will be excluded.

I think you're coming a little late to the party.

The challenger of record mechanism has been enshrouded in Cup dealings ever since 1970, in part no doubt after Sir Frank Packer declined (with relish I might add) to accede to an NYYC request that he sail off against a second challenger from Britain for the '62 Cup. The history of governance under the Deed of Gift has been uneven and rocky at times but it has always progressed towards fairer competition.

You're correct that ACRM may prove to be a legacy rarely matched in sport. It will be tough for future defenders to write-off ACRM or a similar body. The need for an independent body to ensure fairness and enshrine the basic principles of George Schuyler's legacy has been a central part of discussion amongst Cup sailors and officials for decades. Larry took a huge step in the right direction with his creation of ACRM plus a negotiated Protocol designed to perpetuate it.

[Ross 780]

Compound is quiet today with very little activity outside.

Yesterday they had a smaller cat up on the crane with a lot of attention around the daggerboard area

[Terry Hollis]

No harm, no foul...Ironically, had ETNZ become CoR, they may have influenced the choice of boat and thus the number of challengers who may have signed up for AC34.

That might be true if they had become CoR at the beginning but it was probably too late by the time Artemis was appointed ..

[~Stingray~]

^ I suspect that, to some significant degree, the 'stretching' of the cooperation allowance (since curtailed somewhat significantly) was GD's way of sealing the deal with LR.

Not only did it get curtailed later but more importantly for competive fairness to AR, the cooperation will be increasingly less effective as times change and the boats diverge and ETNZ & LR start eyeing each other as serious competitors.

+ 1 to whoever above pointed out that no matter who outside that arrangement was COR, that team or any other Chall would naturally be questioning it. It's not about COR, it's about evening the playing field. The Defender is a competitor too, of course they will also want at least clarity on the limits.

[scassani]

Thanks, Kiwi Joker.

I meant to emphasize that ACRM, as staffed today, brought its credentials to AC34, not the other way round. GGYC drew on a history of administering national and international competitions in a manner contesting parties have, over time, come to accept, shy of turning to a court. The deference I speak to is commmon to sailors who wish for their sport a way to resolve both the contest on the water and the challenges that are stated before a boat is on the water. We agree that future Cup defenses are made compelling for their having the means of resolution to many important competitions at hand as well to the competitors in the Cup.

I am left with a question: Can an administrative service be so circumscribed by the authors of a Protocol that a respected authority such as ACRM will refuse to underwrite the contest to come in its name? Better put: Might the responsibilities imposed upon the Defender and Challenger through the Deed come to be treated differently in the Protocol because a third party-the administrative unit-has a say in how the coming competition will go? The Defender and Challenger were not prepared for a jury to find plain language pointing in a way they did not mean to author. Nor was either party prepared for the thin chiding of one man's innovation, another's violation, when both are speaking to the same rule. You see 'a huge step in the right direction'. I agree. My puzzle has to do with whether the parties to the current Protocol fully anticipated where taking the step might put them.

[Indio]

Thanks, Kiwi Joker.

I meant to emphasize that ACRM, as staffed today, brought its credentials to AC34, not the other way round. GGYC drew on a history of administering national and international competitions in a manner contesting parties have, over time, come to accept, shy of turning to a court. The deference I speak to is commmon to sailors who wish for their sport a way to resolve both the contest on the water and the challenges that are stated before a boat is on the water. We agree that future Cup defenses are made compelling for their having the means of resolution to many important competitions at hand as well to the competitors in the Cup.

I am left with a question: Can an administrative service be so circumscribed by the authors of a Protocol that a respected authority such as ACRM will refuse to underwrite the contest to come in its name? Better put: Might the responsibilities imposed upon the Defender and Challenger through the Deed come to be treated differently in the Protocol because a third party-the administrative unit-has a say in how the coming competition will go? The Defender and Challenger were not prepared for a jury to find plain language pointing in a way they did not mean to author. Nor was either party prepared for the thin chiding of one man's innovation, another's violation, when both are speaking to the same rule. You see 'a huge step in the right direction'. I agree. My puzzle has to do with whether the parties to the current Protocol fully anticipated where taking the step might put them.

The role of and raison d’être for ACRM as prescribed in Art 4.3 of the Protocol reads innocuous enough, and sufficiently neutral, to ensure its survival beyond AC34, albeit with some minor fine-tuning. I see the intrusion of ACRM into the PI22 deliberations as more that of an amicus curiae, notwithstanding their legitimate observation of one man's innovation being another's rules infraction being considered by some as a soft chiding of the complainants. If the parties to the AC34 Protocol thought they had a tame ACRM, they know very differently now!

I think the concept of ACRM works nicely with the IJ entity. ACEA, otoh.....

[KiwiJoker]

Thanks, Kiwi Joker.

I meant to emphasize that ACRM, as staffed today, brought its credentials to AC34, not the other way round. GGYC drew on a history of administering national and international competitions in a manner contesting parties have, over time, come to accept, shy of turning to a court. The deference I speak to is commmon to sailors who wish for their sport a way to resolve both the contest on the water and the challenges that are stated before a boat is on the water. We agree that future Cup defenses are made compelling for their having the means of resolution to many important competitions at hand as well to the competitors in the Cup.

I am left with a question: Can an administrative service be so circumscribed by the authors of a Protocol that a respected authority such as ACRM will refuse to underwrite the contest to come in its name? Better put: Might the responsibilities imposed upon the Defender and Challenger through the Deed come to be treated differently in the Protocol because a third party-the administrative unit-has a say in how the coming competition will go? The Defender and Challenger were not prepared for a jury to find plain language pointing in a way they did not mean to author. Nor was either party prepared for the thin chiding of one man's innovation, another's violation, when both are speaking to the same rule. You see 'a huge step in the right direction'. I agree. My puzzle has to do with whether the parties to the current Protocol fully anticipated where taking the step might put them.

I'm very comfortable with the broad sweep of the Protocol this time (although it's too bad they set the bar too high for entry!). Also with it the performance of ACRM. We have to remember that a major part of the common administration model for ACRM this time was to avoid prolonged dispute resolution and prevent any probability of appeal to outside jurists.

I'm also very comfortable with the issue at hand, namely the very impressive international jury appointed by ACRM overturning the measurement committee on a fairly arcane point and doing it in pragmatic fashion. If any harm at all, small price to pay for the ability to keep the debate in-house as it were.

Nothing wrong with the COR disagreeing with the other challengers and taking the Defender's side of the argument. It's all about design choices each party had made. Has nothing to do with hobbling their challenger competition. BTW, we should remember that the current COR did not author the Protocol. They only stepped in after Mascalzone Latino fell over.

And of course the current model is only effective for AC34. We can expect the best parts to be carried over to AC35, including ACRM and Iain Murray, but that will be the purview of the AC winner and it's chosen challenger.

[Hastings]

You're correct that ACRM may prove to be a legacy rarely matched in sport. It will be tough for future defenders to write-off ACRM or a similar body. The need for an independent body to ensure fairness and enshrine the basic principles of George Schuyler's legacy has been a central part of discussion amongst Cup sailors and officials for decades. Larry took a huge step in the right direction with his creation of ACRM plus a negotiated Protocol designed to perpetuate it.

KJ has this right.

And, irrespective of the outcome of the next match, ACRM will be a valuable legacy.

Even before 2007 there were strong and global calls for a "fair" management structure.

The litigation fiasco fuelled these calls.

Larry responded. And appointing IM was an excellent start.

So, Larry ain't Mr. Perfect. But ACRM was (and is) a good thing.

[KiwiJoker]

Thanks, Kiwi Joker.

I meant to emphasize that ACRM, as staffed today, brought its credentials to AC34, not the other way round. GGYC drew on a history of administering national and international competitions in a manner contesting parties have, over time, come to accept, shy of turning to a court. The deference I speak to is commmon to sailors who wish for their sport a way to resolve both the contest on the water and the challenges that are stated before a boat is on the water. We agree that future Cup defenses are made compelling for their having the means of resolution to many important competitions at hand as well to the competitors in the Cup.

I am left with a question: Can an administrative service be so circumscribed by the authors of a Protocol that a respected authority such as ACRM will refuse to underwrite the contest to come in its name? Better put: Might the responsibilities imposed upon the Defender and Challenger through the Deed come to be treated differently in the Protocol because a third party-the administrative unit-has a say in how the coming competition will go? The Defender and Challenger were not prepared for a jury to find plain language pointing in a way they did not mean to author. Nor was either party prepared for the thin chiding of one man's innovation, another's violation, when both are speaking to the same rule. You see 'a huge step in the right direction'. I agree. My puzzle has to do with whether the parties to the current Protocol fully anticipated where taking the step might put them.

The role of and raison d’être for ACRM as prescribed in Art 4.3 of the Protocol reads innocuous enough, and sufficiently neutral, to ensure its survival beyond AC34, albeit with some minor fine-tuning. I see the intrusion of ACRM into the PI22 deliberations as more that of an amicus curiae, notwithstanding their legitimate observation of one man's innovation being another's rules infraction being considered by some as a soft chiding of the complainants. If the parties to the AC34 Protocol thought they had a tame ACRM, they know very differently now!

I think the concept of ACRM works nicely with the IJ entity. ACEA, otoh.....

You said it better than I did in my response above!

[~Stingray~]

+1

Minor nit to KJ though, ACRM is not who appointed the Jury -ISAF did- but that fact further enforces the overall anyway.

[KiwiJoker]

+1

Minor nit to KJ though, ACRM is not who appointed the Jury -ISAF did- but that fact further enforces the overall anyway.

Mea culpa. Just so!

[hoom]

Yesterday they had a smaller cat up on the crane with a lot of attention around the daggerboard area

Interesting.
Would presume that means something didn't work properly/broke on that first outing & is being fixed.

[Deer with no eyes]

Yesterday they had a smaller cat up on the crane with a lot of attention around the daggerboard area

Interesting.
Would presume that means something didn't work properly/broke on that first outing & is being fixed.

I hear they only have one foil and the other is a couple of weeks away, so we may not see them out to much till then. Makes sense really why sail with one foil on first outing ? And there has been some good sailing days since first sail.

[hoom]

ETNZ were single foil first 2 outings.
Its a good way to test a setup you're not sure is going to work properly.
If its full fail you only lost one daggerboard slot.

[Kiwi Spy]

Jimmy disagreed...his interview will be up soon.

So you did get Jimmy to admit he F*kd the Flipping Thing?

Maybe he does put the capsize down to operator error. Will be interesting to see if OTUSA stick with the flexi platform concept for boat #2, or go with a more rigid platform and bigger volume foils concept. Or, if they modify # 1 to reduce platform flex, or are happy with it the way it is. Either way they have to settle on a common concept if they are to have a good two-boat AC72 program come February 1, 2013.

Whether any AC72 could have got through the Zone of Death in those conditions is another question, of course.

RG

[nav]

Yesterday they had a smaller cat up on the crane with a lot of attention around the daggerboard area

Interesting.
Would presume that means something didn't work properly/broke on that first outing & is being fixed.

I hear they only have one foil and the other is a couple of weeks away, so we may not see them out to much till then. Makes sense really why sail with one foil on first outing ? And there has been some good sailing days since first sail.

It wasn't the 72 he saw...

Compound is quiet today with very little activity outside.

Yesterday they had a smaller cat up on the crane with a lot of attention around the daggerboard area

The LR 33 aren't there yet right? But they are free to use 'small cats' borrowed from ETNZ I guess.

[~Stingray~]

^ LR does have at least one SL33 at the base, there's a walkaround video posted that showed it.

[nav]

Ah yes, now I remember - it was the 45s due later for traning, not the 33s.

Anyway, I wonder if they are working on a 33? for it's own sake or trying to perfect something that is repeated on the 72 but is not working acceptably yet?

[~Stingray~]

I wonder too and too expect that either way (new configs or not) the smaller boats will be used for training.

[Rennmaus]

And while we're waiting...

... is a certain Francesco Bruni competing in the NZ Match Racing Championship.

Crew:
Ben Durham
Pierluigi de Felice
Paul Campbell-James

And Rod Davis is there too.

 2012 Entry List 5 nov 2012.pdf   199.29K   25 downloads

http://www.rnzys.org...49/Default.aspx

[Deer with no eyes]

Yesterday they had a smaller cat up on the crane with a lot of attention around the daggerboard area

Interesting.
Would presume that means something didn't work properly/broke on that first outing & is being fixed.

I hear they only have one foil and the other is a couple of weeks away, so we may not see them out to much till then. Makes sense really why sail with one foil on first outing ? And there has been some good sailing days since first sail.

It wasn't the 72 he saw...

Compound is quiet today with very little activity outside.

Yesterday they had a smaller cat up on the crane with a lot of attention around the daggerboard area

The LR 33 aren't there yet right? But they are free to use 'small cats' borrowed from ETNZ I guess.

They have had an sl33 here for a long time. lately they have been sailing it for long periods up on foils. i was referring to the 72 only having one foil available to currently use.

[amc]

Crane is operating again at the LR base

[TROU]

LR is preping wing is on 12 knots later

[TROU]

no more than 10 knots all day .. get on the spenca

[TROU]

AND THEIR AWAY 9.10 AM .. itsa stunning day for some nice shots of this shiny princessa !!

[dumper]

hurry up guys, you're not making for good viewing

[Boybland]

I can see them from the window at work, wind is almost none existent today, great day for fishing perhaps, not so much for sailing...
Still they are actually getting around alright out there, but don't expect any fireworks.

[Kiwing]

They have found how far out they have to go to get out of webcam range!!

[Kiwing]

Who ever is controlling the webcam now is doing a great job at a great distance.

[the paradox of thrift]

Earlier on we lost the boat - scanning the horizon I saw sunlight flash off the wing and zoomed in - an unforeseen benefit of the mirror finish.

[Hastings]

As always, the AC is a microcosm of the bigger society.

One good thing about this new 72' class is the way it puts a big emphasis on intellectual exploration, risk-taking and working together.

These are all attributes of doing well in the global economy.

My only regret is the fact unwashed masses rarely see (or hear about) intellectual work and learning processes inside AC syndicates.

The need to win over rides any interest in documenting learning processes.

What we need are extended accounts - like the recent Steve Jobs biography by Walter Isaacson.

It must be very interesting (and quite challenging) for LR to follow in TNZ footprints.

That is not the way it normally happens.

And, when the big day arrives (and the start gun fires), it will be VERY interesting to see what Prada folk bring to the table.

[Ncik]

Oh dear, another one succumbs to the perceived advantages of L foils. Does anyone have definitive evidence for how the AC72s control ride height with L foils? I know it can be done with wands like the waverider, etc. But AC72s don't have those. At this stage, I think the dihedral foils of ETNZ are the way to go.

[dogwatch]

^

Two boat testing to resolve that particular question is underway in the Hauraki Gulf.

[Kiwing]

^

Two boat testing to resolve that particular question is underway in the Hauraki Gulf.

Not two boat just yet. The Italians have to learn how to drive first!!

No sign of ETNZ, yet.

[hoom]

They were flying hulls on both tacks today so must have had both foils in.
Any close ups yet?

[dogwatch]

^

Two boat testing to resolve that particular question is underway in the Hauraki Gulf.

Not two boat just yet. The Italians have to learn how to drive first!!

No sign of ETNZ, yet.

OK. My point being that testing of foil alternatives is certainly on the LR/ETNZ agenda. See some recent interviews with Bertelli et al.

[Ross 780]

Swung by on the way home as they were putting LR on the cradle. Port dihedral foil was in as was the starboard.

[Manfred]

As always, the AC is a microcosm of the bigger society.

One good thing about this new 72' class is the way it puts a big emphasis on intellectual exploration, risk-taking and working together.

These are all attributes of doing well in the global economy.

My only regret is the fact unwashed masses rarely see (or hear about) intellectual work and learning processes inside AC syndicates.

The need to win over rides any interest in documenting learning processes.

What we need are extended accounts - like the recent Steve Jobs biography by Walter Isaacson.

It must be very interesting (and quite challenging) for LR to follow in TNZ footprints.

That is not the way it normally happens.

And, when the big day arrives (and the start gun fires), it will be VERY interesting to see what Prada folk bring to the table.

+100, Thanks for these words, especially for the intro!

[hoom]

Port dihedral foil was in as was the starboard.

Given the apparent absence of photos, can you describe what you mean by 'dihedral foil'?
I'm guessing they have a straight top with a V at the bottom?
|
V

Or is it straight then just one way?
|
\_

[nav]

Hoom, I take it you don't think the photos of the two simple 'L' foils (cover shot here for example http://luna-rossa-ch...mericascup.com/ ) are legit? How come?

[eric e]

^
or is he just looking for a reason for Ross to call it a dyhedral? foil and not an L foil

[hoom]

@nav, nope they are as fake as the ETNZ ones.

Closeup hi-res pics look very similar to the ETNZ ones.
If not the same, whacked together quick & cheap but they added Ls on, I guess wanted to make it look more 'proper' since they were letting people walk around under it.

[nav]

Let's hope we get an eye-witness account or photo soon then - in the meantime then it's a case of 'one of these things is not like the others'!

....there were no main foils, fake or real, installed when she hung overhead in the prelaunch walkaround in the tent.

[Bob Perry]

It looks like the hull goes hollow in the run. Is that shape unique to LR?

[Rennmaus]

As always, the AC is a microcosm of the bigger society.

One good thing about this new 72' class is the way it puts a big emphasis on intellectual exploration, risk-taking and working together.

These are all attributes of doing well in the global economy.

My only regret is the fact unwashed masses rarely see (or hear about) intellectual work and learning processes inside AC syndicates.

The need to win over rides any interest in documenting learning processes.

What we need are extended accounts - like the recent Steve Jobs biography by Walter Isaacson.

It must be very interesting (and quite challenging) for LR to follow in TNZ footprints.

That is not the way it normally happens.

And, when the big day arrives (and the start gun fires), it will be VERY interesting to see what Prada folk bring to the table.

+100, Thanks for these words, especially for the intro!

Are you joking, my friend? AC as microcosmos of realy life... oh yes, wait... gonna spend a couple of millions for my pet sailboat race... brb...

[Ross 780]

The foil was shaped similar to the curve you would get in a butter curler scoop. ie it was curved in an upward direction. It was aout a metre in length.

[buckdouger]

The foil was shaped similar to the curve you would get in a butter curler scoop. ie it was curved in an upward direction. It was aout a metre in length.

?

[Kiwing]

Come on Luna Rosa openness, we need some (fuzzy at least) pictures of the foils, to talk about.

Jimmy said you guys were going to talk us through, drag us along, to get more spectators, be open and friendly.

WE want Pictures!!!

[Kiwing]

Are you joking, my friend? AC as microcosmos of realy life... oh yes, wait... gonna spend a couple of millions for my pet sailboat race... brb...

Are you joking, I want the Jimmy, Deano role!!

[Boybland]

^

Two boat testing to resolve that particular question is underway in the Hauraki Gulf.

Not two boat just yet. The Italians have to learn how to drive first!!

No sign of ETNZ, yet.

ETNZ still has something like 2 or 3 days of their go faster improvements time in the shed left. 10 days from last time they sailed if still on schedule.

[Monster Mash]

According to a team member friend from the AC32 defense Bertelli is no stranger to wanting some chrome on his boats.
His idea back then was to have chrome sails, quickly nixed by crew as heavy and impossible for trimming purposes.

[Kiwing]

According to a team member friend from the AC32 defense Bertelli is no stranger to wanting some chrome on his boats.
His idea back then was to have chrome sails, quickly nixed by crew as heavy and impossible for trimming purposes.

Helps find them on the webcam!!

[KiwiJoker]

According to a team member friend from the AC32 defense Bertelli is no stranger to wanting some chrome on his boats.
His idea back then was to have chrome sails, quickly nixed by crew as heavy and impossible for trimming purposes.

Helps find them on the webcam!!

Silver, chrome, titanium, whatever, has always been a Luna Rossa theme. Back in 2000 one of the syndicate's party favours was a Prada notebook with covers made from thin sheet titanium!

[hoom]

They have the wing up over the base.

[Boybland]

According to a team member friend from the AC32 defense Bertelli is no stranger to wanting some chrome on his boats.
His idea back then was to have chrome sails, quickly nixed by crew as heavy and impossible for trimming purposes.

They did say prior to anyone seeing it that their wing covering was comfortably the heaviest of any of the teams, now we know why.

[amc]

boat looks to be on the water now

[Ross 780]

On its way out of Westhaven now. Quite light winds.

[hoom]

It looks like the hull goes hollow in the run. Is that shape unique to LR?

Its same shape as ETNZ so not unique.
There is an F18 design that has similar hollow.
http://www.catsailin...u-boulogne.html
Apparently its for planing.

On ETNZ though the stern lifts out of the drink first most of the time so either they weren't positive about the foiling -> design to help it with semi-foiling/planing
Or it might be there to help with reducing the wetted surface early.

[Ross 780]

Oh no not like that one, my one at home is much flatter. As I said about a metre in length, and with a moderate curve upwards.

[hoom]

So I've been running the cam mostly but I'm a bit distracted trying to do some other stuff at the same time, did anyone get a good look at the foils while they were tacking relatively close in?
Looked pretty C foil ish to me.

Anyone who knows how to work the cam who wants to take over is welcome to.

[KiwiJoker]

So I've been running the cam mostly but I'm a bit distracted trying to do some other stuff at the same time, did anyone get a good look at the foils while they were tacking relatively close in?
Looked pretty C foil ish to me.

Anyone who knows how to work the cam who wants to take over is welcome to.

You still on camera at 1420? Someone doing a good job. Range a bit to far to confirm foiling . Looks like too much wake.

[Mariner]

Let's hope we get an eye-witness account or photo soon then - in the meantime then it's a case of 'one of these things is not like the others'!

....there were no main foils, fake or real, installed when she hung overhead in the prelaunch walkaround in the tent.

Wow, it took ETNZ several sails to do this!! LR aren't messing around. I guess they have some private tutors though huh?

and what the hell is that behemoth in the background???

[hoom]

Off cam now.

[Barnyb]

Let's hope we get an eye-witness account or photo soon then - in the meantime then it's a case of 'one of these things is not like the others'!

....there were no main foils, fake or real, installed when she hung overhead in the prelaunch walkaround in the tent.

Wow, it took ETNZ several sails to do this!! LR aren't messing around. I guess they have some private tutors though huh?

and what the hell is that behemoth in the background???

Weta is in the background. Owned by Graeme Hart a NZ private investor who has holdings around the world in packaging companies (Forbes net worth $4-5b)

Weta was bought in Chile then towed to Auckland. Currently undergoing a total refit (most work at this stage has been internal. Do not think Graeme will paint it silver!

His current boat is Ulyses is an expedition yacht - 60meters and about $50m USD

[hoom]

Well I got bored of looking at houses & trees so I guess I'm back on the cam...
Dammit I want to read my book!

[KiwiJoker]

and what the hell is that behemoth in the background???

As Barneyb notes, that's Graham Hart's Weta, under outfit. Interesting guy. Currently NZ's second richest man but not a likely America's cup player.

A couple of years ago Bloomberg reported that Graeme Hart went from high-school dropout to become richer than anyone in Australia or New Zealand by buying up and repackaging underperforming businesses. Now he’s doing it to the packaging industry. He's since been eclipsed by other Bs in this corner of the world. Bloomberg story is worth reading.

[Indio]

and what the hell is that behemoth in the background???

As Barneyb notes, that's Graham Hart's Weta, under outfit. Interesting guy. Currently NZ's second richest man but not a likely America's cup player.

A couple of years ago Bloomberg reported that Graeme Hart went from high-school dropout to become richer than anyone in Australia or New Zealand by buying up and repackaging underperforming businesses. Now he’s doing it to the packaging industry. He's since been eclipsed by other Bs in this corner of the world. Bloomberg story is worth reading.

Hart got his start by purchasing cheaply (as in very very cheaply!!) the Government Printing Office way back at the start of Rogernomics, together with all printing contracts for all government departments, NZ Post, Telecom, etc. There were whispers of under-handedness in the way the deal was done - even the PM of the day Lange initially refused to sign the deal.

He's done good since.

[Boybland]

Lovely big long run off the wind right past the eastern bays, looked great out the window. cam doesn't look like she's foiling but she is definitely moving in not a lot of breeze.

[eric e]

^
that's got be worrying OR and AR

not only do these twins look more likely to survive tough wind and waves

but still look sweet in fuck all breeze...

when neither OR or AR can even sail at the moment

let alone foil

[DA-WOODY]

^
that's got be worrying OR and AR

not only do these twins look more likely to survive tough wind and waves

but still look sweet in fuck all breeze...

when neither OR or AR can even sail at the moment

let alone foil

Gee we better not race in RAK

sounds like a quote from MM about EB's ride

& once again GHOSTING shall Not be what's done on Race Day

Would OR be so Crule as to put out a 72-V1 just to throw off the others & Build TV Interest

till All 72-V2 boats are comitted to a design - then Launch something 180 Out from the BOX ???

Has anyone seen the Crews of TNZ and LR all togeather in a room at the same time ??

[Indio]

^
that's got be worrying OR and AR

not only do these twins look more likely to survive tough wind and waves

but still look sweet in fuck all breeze...

when neither OR or AR can even sail at the moment

let alone foil

Gee we better not race in RAK

sounds like a quote from MM about EB's ride

& once again GHOSTING shall Not be what's done on Race Day

Would OR be so Crule as to put out a 72-V1 just to throw off the others & Build TV Interest

till All 72-V2 boats are comitted to a design - then Launch something 180 Out from the BOX ???

Has anyone seen the Crews of TNZ and LR all togeather in a room at the same time ??

If you believe that Spithill deliberately risked the lives of the 12-13 people aboard OR17 just to throw a feint, he would be facing some serious criminal charges!! Either that or you're inhaling some seriously bad shit!!

[High Flow]

hey, that gets me thinking,
of course this is not true, but...
they capsized OR17.
no one was hurt, no injuries, no scratches, no nothing.
isn't that weird? how many people were on board? how far do you fall form the 72? what if you hit a wing, shrouds, a winch, a grinder, your college, ...
so...
we're they prepared?
why was it filmed?
a webcam, yes, but..
a webcam filming them in youtube-good enough quality?
was is all a hoax?
interviews right from the ribs?
did a tv company pay then to wreck their boat (of which the thought it was shit anyway?)
who else could have been involved?
the Chinese?
hmm,
i think we have a conspiracy theory here!
keep bringing' those ideas!
i like!
did they want it to go viral with
(maybe with this methods? )

[eric e]

you mean like when wussel went through the wing

at a perfect media moment?

if true

2 possibilities come to mind

1. these professional sailors are a tough and cunning breed!

2. oracle has hired some lame sailors whose love of showing off exceeds their ability to control their boats

[High Flow]

not very creative...
how about this:
there was some issues with the boat. don't ask me what. some major structural thing. maybe something they broke the day before. something which couldn't really be fixed without having some performance losses. (no, don't ask me what, something we can't think of. if we could it would be easy!)
so something which hasn't come to our mind.
then larry came up with the idea:
lets do a bad fix. make the boat work somehow. just get it on the water again and don't worry about the performance issue. and then get a huge media moment. imagine the exposure for oracle! let's go viral (see post above) with capsizing the largest wing catamaran ever! now we're talking marketing!

or the other teams payed them to do it. how about that?
they were bought by the other teams (maybe china?) to wreck their boat and share with them their learning.
ok - that seems rather unrealistic.

but come on guys,
what's up with your creativity?
SA is a grant for creativity (and stupidity).

[hoom]

This is just a stupid line of thought.
There is no plausible advantage provided by a crash not outweighed by possibility of killing crew & massive lack of sailing time caused by it.

They simply went out in conditions they weren't ready for/the boat was not suited for & fucked it into the drink.
They are very high-powered boats that are easy to fuck up on, especially Oracle with its tendency to drag the windward bow & twist up.

Now lets get back on topic: Has anyone got a damn pic of the LR butter scoop yet?

[DA-WOODY]

LR haz no boat it's TNZ using trick Mirrors

[High Flow]

retards.
might aswell dick around a little while waiting for some more info. what's it worth checking into this forum otherwise.
anyway, some things just work differently than we think they do. or than we think we know we do. or than we know that know we do.
keep thinking about the fish, who suddenly saw this other small and wiggely fish which he then chased and when he got it there suddenly was this pain in his cheek and there was this big force pulling him. suddenly he was in another world and it was hard to breathe. there were these huge and really weird looking colorful hairy fish. then suddenly there was even more pain in his cheek and something strange happened and he was back in his usual world like nothing had happened except this small hole in his cheek.
now who is going to believe him at the fish bar our in the fishnet Forum? they'll accuse him of using too many legal or illegal drugs.

guys, where is your imagination?
have a nice weekend and always keep the in mind the fish!

[fastyacht]

^^
||

LOL

[Tornado-Cat]

No foiling today

http://www.sail-worl...aki-Gulf/103664

[Doug Lord]

No foiling today

http://www.sail-worl...aki-Gulf/103664

-----------------------------------
Did you notice the stb foil: the angle between the foil and the daggerboard was significantly less than 90 degrees-about 20 degrees less.

[eric e]

Did you notice the stb foil: the angle between the foil and the daggerboard was significantly less than 90 degrees-about 20 degrees less.

yes, an interesting angle

Attached Files

•  lr foil.jpg   27.01K   55 downloads

[hoom]

Ah Ha! &
Port hull has a curved board, thats the one I thought looked like a C on the cam.

But that foil is a bit mystifying.
Did not expect that.

[Tornado-Cat]

No foiling today

http://www.sail-worl...aki-Gulf/103664

-----------------------------------
Did you notice the stb foil: the angle between the foil and the daggerboard was significantly less than 90 degrees-about 20 degrees less.

Yes, I tried to watch it as closely as possible but I am not sure it is the tip. If it's the case the tip is angled like a V.

[Rohanoz]

S foil angles without losing righting width.

[nav]

Ah Ha! &
Port hull has a curved board, thats the one I thought looked like a C on the cam.

But that foil is a bit mystifying.
Did not expect that.

Popped by on my way home. They were washing the hulls down very diligently before they put it on the cradle. The starboard foil was still in. I am not a cat sailor but I can say It was not an L shape. Rather the bottom of the L was curved upwards.
....
....

[High Flow]

boring

[Hastings]

Let's hope we get an eye-witness account or photo soon then - in the meantime then it's a case of 'one of these things is not like the others'!

....there were no main foils, fake or real, installed when she hung overhead in the prelaunch walkaround in the tent.

In 2007 I sometimes lay on the grass at the big screen in Valencia and had a lot of fun when TNZ went against the Italians.

One day I got into a big conversation with nearby Italian fans.

The question was - "How come Italian stuff always looks good. Is design stuffed into your heads at school?"

Answers came fast a furious. Like other things, there is no one right answer. It is a cultural phenomenon going back centuries.

Even so, this latest Prada effort sure-as-hell is a striking bit of art !!!!!

[Kiwing]

^^
And functional too!!

[hoom]

Well its not really all that arty to put shiny foil on something someone else designed.
Its ballsy for sure, especially on the wing.

[onimod]

In 2007 I sometimes lay on the grass at the big screen in Valencia and had a lot of fun when TNZ went against the Italians.

One day I got into a big conversation with nearby Italian fans.

The question was - "How come Italian stuff always looks good. Is design stuffed into your heads at school?"

Answers came fast a furious. Like other things, there is no one right answer. It is a cultural phenomenon going back centuries.

Even so, this latest Prada effort sure-as-hell is a striking bit of art !!!!!

Italy always struck me as having extremes - a small minority of stuff is nice and the majority is woeful.
I like their humanity though - events seem to be things to share rather then experience on your own.

[maxmini]

Well its not really all that arty to put shiny foil on something someone else designed.
Its ballsy for sure, especially on the wing.

Actually is is all about the art this time around . Two different looks on the same design. One gets pretty much rave reviews while the other not so much . What else could it be but the " art " which makes one so much better than the other ?.

[Kiwing]

No sign of LR this morning.

Even though the ETNZ bay is busy.

[hoom]

Actually is is all about the art this time around . Two different looks on the same design. One gets pretty much rave reviews while the other not so much . What else could it be but the " art " which makes one so much better than the other ?.

Thing is that ETNZ platform has proven to be fast, stable foiling & reliable with lots of nice engineering touches.
Stick a mirror finish on that & it has great wow-factor.

Stick a mirror finish on a boat that hasn't even been out yet but has broken several times already & I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be such positive reaction.

[nav]

Didn't someone suggest we would never actually see both crews at once