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Luna Rossa 72

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#1 thetruth

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 06:46 AM

With no one with half a clue and all the shit going on how long to you give the well dressed boys from Italie? And they are just dripping with talent are't they.............................

#2 pixie fishmonkey

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:22 AM

With no one with half a clue and all the shit going on how long to you give the well dressed boys from Italie? And they are just dripping with talent are't they.............................


If carnage, capzize's, pitchpoles and mayhem brings in the audience's as with the extreme40's then this could be the most watched AC ever. Who care's bring it on.....................

#3 tom0r

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:41 AM

LR AC72 Launching next Friday : http://translate.goo...ottobre&act=url

#4 ~Stingray~

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 02:31 AM

http://pbs.twimg.com...AklN0.jpg:large

http://t.co/P19g2I6x

#5 pixie fishmonkey

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:00 AM


With no one with half a clue and all the shit going on how long to you give the well dressed boys from Italie? And they are just dripping with talent are't they.............................


If carnage, capzize's, pitchpoles and mayhem brings in the audience's as with the extreme40's then this could be the most watched AC ever. Who care's bring it on.....................

......As long as no one gets hurt of coursexx

#6 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

Tutto pronto ad Auckland (NZL): tra poco vedremo il grande catamarano della sfida italiana alla XXXIV America's Cup La Nuova Zelanda e Auckland tornano a incrociare la storia di Luna Rossa, dopo i fasti e le emozioni del 2000 e le fatiche del 2003, la nuova sfida del team di Patrizio Bertelli alla Coppa America passa nuovamente dalla "città delle vele". E' previsto infatti per venerdi prossimo 26 ottobre ad Auckland il varo di Luna Rossa AC72 (c'è curiosità come al solito per il nome, o almeno il nickname che tradizionalmente viene dato agli scafi delle sfide): il primo e unico esemplare italiano della nuova gigantesca classe Coppa America prevista per l'edizione numero 34 in programma nel 2013 a San Francisco (USA) con il consueto prologo della Louis Vuitton Cup per gli sfidanti. Da Repubblica.it

#7 valenciasailing

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 04:31 PM

Getting ready to fly to Auckland... it's a 48-hour trip from Valencia......

#8 pogen

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:31 PM

Can someone remind me how it's OK for the Italian boat (hulls at least) can be built outside of Italy?

#9 Xlot

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:43 PM


^^

Hulls (and molds) were done at Persico's



#10 bluelaser

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:42 PM



With no one with half a clue and all the shit going on how long to you give the well dressed boys from Italie? And they are just dripping with talent are't they.............................


If carnage, capzize's, pitchpoles and mayhem brings in the audience's as with the extreme40's then this could be the most watched AC ever. Who care's bring it on.....................

......As long as no one gets hurt of coursexx


You think someone getting hurt will hurt viewership? haha. What was nascar before Sr. died?

#11 point

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:55 AM

I'm getting into Auckland on Thursday on unrelated by very nicely timed business.

Hopefully I've left my bad juju over the Pacific somewhere as I was in San Fran last week and gave the boys on Oracle a shout out an hour or so before it all went arse over tit for them.

Bring on the dueling tractors.

#12 Skippy505

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:12 AM

Landini v MF

http://youtu.be/P4Mu3iKK6nk

#13 Landlockedlubber

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:22 AM

Landini v MF


See what I mean? Top stuff, cobber. More action there than OR's 8 days hobby horsing on Ol' Dobbin.

#14 KiwiJoker

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:05 AM

Luna Rossa wing went aloft for the first time today at their base on the edge of Westhaven.

Can't tell you if it went on/in the boat or not. Just caught a glimpse as I drove out of Auckland around 1700 hours. This was the view from the Wynyard Quarter Web Cam 51 minutes later.

For those not familiar with the neighborhood, the ETNZ base in the foreground is situated on the western edge of the Viaduct Basin. The Luna Rossa base is on the opposite side of the narrow neck of land once known as the Tank Farm. It fronts onto the eastern side of Westhaven Harbour. That's the Westhaven Marina in the background.

Attached Files



#15 Barnyb

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:34 AM

Labour Day here in NZ so a public holiday today. The Viaduct was busy this morning with the age group end of the International Triathlon series. But Wynyard Quarter was dead this morning - bit cold and windy. No activity this morning at LR base but clearly stood the mast up briefly this afternoon/evening. Maybe stepping up activity for the big launch on Friday evening.

#16 KiwiJoker

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:38 AM

Labour Day here in NZ so a public holiday today. The Viaduct was busy this morning with the age group end of the International Triathlon series. But Wynyard Quarter was dead this morning - bit cold and windy. No activity this morning at LR base but clearly stood the mast up briefly this afternoon/evening. Maybe stepping up activity for the big launch on Friday evening.


Yeah! Seems to be about the same timeframe as prelim preps as ETNZ. They spent several days on mast step and launching practice ahead of their formal christening.

#17 onimod

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:42 AM

#craneanarchy
looks like the same mobile that ETNZ have been using too

#18 NZLbenny

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:42 AM

Attached File  photo (600x800).jpg   238.31K   522 downloads

#19 eric e

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:44 AM

Attached File  photo (600x800).jpg   96.65K   717 downloadsnow everyone are the all blacks

except the swedes

who at least resisted the urge to go blue and yellow

tweaked and bigger

#20 Tony-F18

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:02 AM

Different bow? Hard to tell from those pix.

#21 hoom

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:07 AM

Looking quite ETNZ.
I guess to be expected but I kind of expected their own twist to it.

Rocker looks more hollow than ETNZ, maybe less freeboard forward?

Rear element shrink wrap needs more shrinking.

#22 kiwi_jon

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:22 AM

I think you will find it is exactly the same. As Dalts put it LR 'would build an absolutely identical boat from every nut, bolt and layer of carbon fiber.'

#23 Alpina

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:04 AM

Hold on, that's the LR 72 right?

#24 Scarecrow

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:22 AM

I'm guessing the back half of the wing has been wrapped in black plastic to keep something left to unvail on launch day.

Doesn't appear to have ETNZ's drainage gills.

#25 onimod

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:23 AM

Rear element shrink wrap needs more shrinking.

or they've covered the rear in garbage bags

#26 Somtam Cowboy

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:36 AM

Hope they've got good ash trays.

#27 hoom

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:48 AM

I think you will find it is exactly the same. As Dalts put it LR 'would build an absolutely identical boat from every nut, bolt and layer of carbon fiber.'

Oh, did not know there was such a quote :o

I'd been expecting they'd take the ETNZ design & tweak it for their own preferences eg deck layout/freeboard/wing profile etc.
Or that it'd be a more risky/conservative version of the ETNZ boat 1.

#28 kiwi_jon

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:06 AM

^^^^

That was the whole idea of the agreement between TNZ and LR. Two identical boats that they can two boat test changes, foil configurations etc.

The agreement runs till 31st Dec 2012 when all teams must engage seperate designers. After that LR can make whatever modifications they like, within the Protocol and Class Rules, to their AC72.

#29 tomtom

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:10 AM

I think you will find it is exactly the same. As Dalts put it LR 'would build an absolutely identical boat from every nut, bolt and layer of carbon fiber.'

But perhaps they have now taken some early lessons from ETNZ testing and incorporated those - makes it an "ETNZ 1.5 version" boat - would make sense, wouldn't it?

#30 Tony-F18

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:13 AM

Secretly I think the LVC in one design cats could potentially be awesome! :ph34r:

#31 Rohanoz

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:48 AM

OR could always buy a 'stock' design from ETNZ...

#32 eric e

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:11 AM

I'm guessing the back half of the wing has been wrapped in black plastic to keep something left to unvail on launch day.

Doesn't appear to have ETNZ's drainage gills.


if they have blacked the wing they may also have blacked a lot of the hull
and then peel to reveal on launch day

#33 eric e

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:46 AM

makes sense that all that black will be peeled back to white

Posted Image

#34 K38BOB

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

Attached File  photo (600x800).jpg   96.65K   717 downloadsnow everyone are the all blacks

except the swedes

who at least resisted the urge to go blue and yellow

tweaked and bigger


No boards?

#35 Xlot

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

Attached File  photo (600x800).jpg   238.31K   522 downloads


Thanks, Benny - your picture?

BTW, FV's Michele Tognozzi will be at the event. And Cathay has been named LR's official airline



#36 nav

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:16 PM

Good scoop KJ and NZbenny! Thanks. Been watching for that forever - but missed it anyway :(

#37 zillafreak

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:22 PM

makes sense that all that black will be peeled back to white

Posted Image

Could be. Pictures are grainy but it looks like the hulls are wrapped too.

#38 Hastings

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:29 PM


makes sense that all that black will be peeled back to white

Posted Image

Could be. Pictures are grainy but it looks like the hulls are wrapped too.


The sooner both 72s are out in the Rangitoto channel, the better.

Recent events suggest this TNZ/LR partnership was a good idea.

#39 Estar

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:50 PM

Just as a reminder of the prior jury decision:

(1) TNZ cannot line up against LR (sail collaboratively or 'race') as this would make LR a 'surrogate yacht' and prevent TNZ from building a second boat

also

(2) LR cannot share performance information with TNZ as this would breach 33.4. TNZ can (apparently) share performance info with LR (one-way) until Jan 1st.

It will be interesting to see if there are any more jury challenges to this partnership once it goes to the in-water phase.

#40 Xlot

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:50 PM

Unanimous advice on Italian sites (and mine): CAREFUL!!! LOL

#41 nav

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:53 PM

Protest! Flag too small

#42 Hemi

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:58 PM

Chrome finish on the hulls and wing under the black plastic perhaps?

#43 nav

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:09 PM

Chrome finish on the hulls and wing under the black plastic perhaps?


Owww - tacky! Whatever next? Fox-tails, flames?

I say...
Posted Image

#44 Indio

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:12 PM

Just as a reminder of the prior jury decision:

(1) TNZ cannot line up against LR (sail collaboratively or 'race') as this would make LR a 'surrogate yacht' and prevent TNZ from building a second boat

also

(2) LR cannot share performance information with TNZ as this would breach 33.4. TNZ can (apparently) share performance info with LR (one-way) until Jan 1st.

It will be interesting to see if there are any more jury challenges to this partnership once it goes to the in-water phase.


I think they can practise race against each other but cannot share performance data other than what they can ascertain from observations and use of commercially available electronic devices

#45 nav

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:39 PM

They are playing again http://www.takeabrea...-city.asp?cam=2

about 09:00 on the 23rd there now - nice view for the commuters

#46 Boybland

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:43 PM

Yep wing looked impressive from the bridge, very ummm black!

#47 Estar

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:43 PM

I think they can practise race against each other but cannot share performance data other than what they can ascertain from observations and use of commercially available electronic devices


The jury was pretty clear that sailing in "collaboration" makes the other boat a surrogate, and that this is separate from sharing performance information (which is a 33.4 problem not a surrogate yacht problem). Of course there is room to debate what "sailing in collaboration" means, but I would certaintly think lining up together would be a pretty clear problem.


Jury JN024

OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer:
(a) if there is an arrangement to share performance information then there is likely to be a breach of Article 33.4.

( b ) for both OR and CB the other Competitor’s AC72 would meet the definition of ‘Surrogate Yacht’ (Article 1.1 (xx)). Using such Surrogate Yacht for training or for testing and development as described in Article 29.4 would constitute the acquisition of an AC72. While this does not breach any Article of the Protocol in itself, this would then prohibit either Competitor from acquiring, building or otherwise obtaining another AC72, as limited by Article 29.2(a).


#48 pjfranks

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:55 PM

^^^
no problems for or there then? glad they sorted that

#49 ice9a

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:13 PM

^^^
no problems for or there then? glad they sorted that


Substitute TNZ for OR, and LR for CB (competitor B ) . . .

#50 nav

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:17 PM

An early start - 'Espresso, pronto!'Posted Image

#51 kiwi_jon

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:35 PM

Just as a reminder of the prior jury decision:

(1) TNZ cannot line up against LR (sail collaboratively or 'race') as this would make LR a 'surrogate yacht' and prevent TNZ from building a second boat

also

(2) LR cannot share performance information with TNZ as this would breach 33.4. TNZ can (apparently) share performance info with LR (one-way) until Jan 1st.

It will be interesting to see if there are any more jury challenges to this partnership once it goes to the in-water phase.


Incorrect.

(1) TNZ cannot line up against LR (sail collaboratively or 'race') as this would make LR a 'surrogate yacht' and prevent TNZ from building a second boat

18. The Jury Decision in AC11, and specifically paragraphs 16 and 21 when read in conjunction, does not prohibit two Competitors from engaging in training or practice racing together. This similarly applies to both Article 29.4 and 33.4.



(2) LR cannot share performance information with TNZ as this would breach 33.4. TNZ can (apparently) share performance info with LR (one-way) until Jan 1st.

19. However, should Competitor B (the „second person‟ in Article 33.4), provide Competitor A („the first person‟ in Article 33.4) with design or performance information that will assist them in interpreting or understanding any information they may glean by observation alone, then Protocol Article 33.4 will be breached.


20. The information referred to in paragraph 19 above does not include the design information that was transmitted between the Competitors as part of their Agreement, but it would include information about the training or practice racing, however transmitted, such as:
(i) the sails, foils or other changeable equipment that will be used or were used;
(ii) the set up of the rig, hull, sails, spars, controls, foils, etc.;
(iii) any performance data from the boat; and
(iv) any wind, wave or other relevant conditions actually experienced by the yacht during the activity.





#52 Indio

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:38 PM


I think they can practise race against each other but cannot share performance data other than what they can ascertain from observations and use of commercially available electronic devices


The jury was pretty clear that sailing in "collaboration" makes the other boat a surrogate, and that this is separate from sharing performance information (which is a 33.4 problem not a surrogate yacht problem). Of course there is room to debate what "sailing in collaboration" means, but I would certaintly think lining up together would be a pretty clear problem.


Jury JN024

OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer:
(a) if there is an arrangement to share performance information then there is likely to be a breach of Article 33.4.

( b ) for both OR and CB the other Competitor’s AC72 would meet the definition of ‘Surrogate Yacht’ (Article 1.1 (xx)). Using such Surrogate Yacht for training or for testing and development as described in Article 29.4 would constitute the acquisition of an AC72. While this does not breach any Article of the Protocol in itself, this would then prohibit either Competitor from acquiring, building or otherwise obtaining another AC72, as limited by Article 29.2(a).

The Jury answer which you've conveniently omitted in your citing is this:

OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer: Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two
Competitors’ yachts.

ETNZ and LR can practice against each other right up to New Year's Eve 2012: they just can't share performance information.

#53 maxmini

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:41 PM



I think they can practise race against each other but cannot share performance data other than what they can ascertain from observations and use of commercially available electronic devices


The jury was pretty clear that sailing in "collaboration" makes the other boat a surrogate, and that this is separate from sharing performance information (which is a 33.4 problem not a surrogate yacht problem). Of course there is room to debate what "sailing in collaboration" means, but I would certaintly think lining up together would be a pretty clear problem.


Jury JN024

OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer:
(a) if there is an arrangement to share performance information then there is likely to be a breach of Article 33.4.

( b ) for both OR and CB the other Competitor’s AC72 would meet the definition of ‘Surrogate Yacht’ (Article 1.1 (xx)). Using such Surrogate Yacht for training or for testing and development as described in Article 29.4 would constitute the acquisition of an AC72. While this does not breach any Article of the Protocol in itself, this would then prohibit either Competitor from acquiring, building or otherwise obtaining another AC72, as limited by Article 29.2(a).

The Jury answer which you've conveniently omitted in your citing is this:

OR Question 3: OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer: Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two
Competitors’ yachts.

ETNZ and LR can practice against each other right up to New Year's Eve 2012: they just can't share performance information.


How many practice days will ETNZ have left by the time Luna is up and running ?

#54 Indio

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:43 PM




I think they can practise race against each other but cannot share performance data other than what they can ascertain from observations and use of commercially available electronic devices


The jury was pretty clear that sailing in "collaboration" makes the other boat a surrogate, and that this is separate from sharing performance information (which is a 33.4 problem not a surrogate yacht problem). Of course there is room to debate what "sailing in collaboration" means, but I would certaintly think lining up together would be a pretty clear problem.


Jury JN024

OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer:
(a) if there is an arrangement to share performance information then there is likely to be a breach of Article 33.4.

( b ) for both OR and CB the other Competitor’s AC72 would meet the definition of ‘Surrogate Yacht’ (Article 1.1 (xx)). Using such Surrogate Yacht for training or for testing and development as described in Article 29.4 would constitute the acquisition of an AC72. While this does not breach any Article of the Protocol in itself, this would then prohibit either Competitor from acquiring, building or otherwise obtaining another AC72, as limited by Article 29.2(a).

The Jury answer which you've conveniently omitted in your citing is this:

OR Question 3: OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer: Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two
Competitors’ yachts.

ETNZ and LR can practice against each other right up to New Year's Eve 2012: they just can't share performance information.


How many practice days will ETNZ have left by the time Luna is up and running ?

ETNZ have 18 left as of today - surprisingly, only 4 less than OR :)

#55 notallhere

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:01 PM





I think they can practise race against each other but cannot share performance data other than what they can ascertain from observations and use of commercially available electronic devices


The jury was pretty clear that sailing in "collaboration" makes the other boat a surrogate, and that this is separate from sharing performance information (which is a 33.4 problem not a surrogate yacht problem). Of course there is room to debate what "sailing in collaboration" means, but I would certaintly think lining up together would be a pretty clear problem.


Jury JN024

OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer:
(a) if there is an arrangement to share performance information then there is likely to be a breach of Article 33.4.

( b ) for both OR and CB the other Competitor’s AC72 would meet the definition of ‘Surrogate Yacht’ (Article 1.1 (xx)). Using such Surrogate Yacht for training or for testing and development as described in Article 29.4 would constitute the acquisition of an AC72. While this does not breach any Article of the Protocol in itself, this would then prohibit either Competitor from acquiring, building or otherwise obtaining another AC72, as limited by Article 29.2(a).

The Jury answer which you've conveniently omitted in your citing is this:

OR Question 3: OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer: Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two
Competitors’ yachts.

ETNZ and LR can practice against each other right up to New Year's Eve 2012: they just can't share performance information.


How many practice days will ETNZ have left by the time Luna is up and running ?

ETNZ have 18 left as of today - surprisingly, only 4 less than OR :)


I bet you didn't write that.......
So few words have not yet described the gulf that lies between the Kiwis & Oraclenzaurus.

#56 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:02 PM

I hope LR and ETNZ enjoy a long NZ summer having productive practice races and learning more about their boats. It will be productive and entertaining.

I expect that ETNZ have been very helpful to the LR cmapiagn to date, and now they're on the water that assistance will be reciprocated.

The Citation above is also incorrect - it should read:

OR Question 3: OR question 3: Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration?

Jury Answer: No. Oracle Racing (OR) does not have a boat and Competitor B (CB) should investigate the cracking noises first.

#57 Estar

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:31 PM

18. The Jury Decision in AC11, and specifically paragraphs 16 and 21 when read in conjunction, does not prohibit two Competitors from engaging in training or practice racing together. This similarly applies to both Article 29.4 and 33.4.


Jury Answer: Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two
Competitors’ yachts.


You both are, I believe, missing the key point that 33.4 and 29.4 are completely seperate and independent points.

Yes, they are allowed to race (or line up) by the protocal (it is not forbidden by 33.4) . . . BUT if they do then TNZ can't build a second boat, because they have become each others surrogates by 29.4. The only exception is if they get official permission from ACEA to race.

Indio is simply reading badly. The full text of JN 24 is quite clear. Racing is allowed but two competitors racing make them each other's surrogates:

JN24 QUESTION 3
38. Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration? They conduct a two boat test program to develop their design. Each yacht would not sail more than 30 days and this arrangement would conclude prior to 1st January 2013.

39. Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two Competitors’ yachts but if there is an arrangement to share performance information then there is likely to be a breach of Article 33.4. Also, for both OR and CB the other Competitor’s AC72 would meet the definition of ‘Surrogate Yacht’ (Article 1.1 (xx)). Using such Surrogate Yacht for training or for testing and development as described in Article 29.4 would constitute the acquisition of an AC72. While this does not breach any Article of the Protocol in itself, this would then prohibit either Competitor from acquiring, building or otherwise obtaining another AC72, as limited by Article 29.2(a).

Kiwi_Jon's quoted text from JN47 is much more tricky. You have to read pp22 (below) to make it clear. PP22 says that JN47 does not revise or clearify the previous decisions. That means that point 39 still stands. So how do you then interpertat pp18 that KJ quotes. It says in plain language that training and racing is not prohibited. But it does not revise or clearify point 39 above, so, as clearly stated in prior JN24, the boats become surrogates. 29.4 does not ban training or racing with LR but it does make it unattractive if TNZ wants to build a second boat.

22. The discussion paragraphs of this Decision do not provide a clarification or revision of AC11, which was requested by Artemis Racing. They provide confirmation of the AC11 Decision and some additional comments on Article 33.4 in the context of the AC11 Decision to further assist Competitors.

The trickest point of all is in jn33 pp17. It suggests that it is open to judgement and interpertation when training becomse a surrogate. But if I were AR or OR, I would ask why are they lining up if they are not developping their AC72.

On the 33.4 point KJ and I agree. They can share design information up to Jan 1st, but not performance information from sailing

#58 Indio

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:00 AM


18. The Jury Decision in AC11, and specifically paragraphs 16 and 21 when read in conjunction, does not prohibit two Competitors from engaging in training or practice racing together. This similarly applies to both Article 29.4 and 33.4.


Jury Answer: Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two
Competitors’ yachts.


You both are, I believe, missing the key point that 33.4 and 29.4 are completely seperate and independent points.

Yes, they are allowed to race (or line up) by the protocal (it is not forbidden by 33.4) . . . BUT if they do then TNZ can't build a second boat, because they have become each others surrogates by 29.4. The only exception is if they get official permission from ACEA to race.

Indio is simply reading badly. The full text of JN 24 is quite clear. Racing is allowed but two competitors racing make them each other's surrogates:

JN24 QUESTION 3
38. Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration? They conduct a two boat test program to develop their design. Each yacht would not sail more than 30 days and this arrangement would conclude prior to 1st January 2013.

39. Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two Competitors’ yachts but if there is an arrangement to share performance information then there is likely to be a breach of Article 33.4. Also, for both OR and CB the other Competitor’s AC72 would meet the definition of ‘Surrogate Yacht’ (Article 1.1 (xx)). Using such Surrogate Yacht for training or for testing and development as described in Article 29.4 would constitute the acquisition of an AC72. While this does not breach any Article of the Protocol in itself, this would then prohibit either Competitor from acquiring, building or otherwise obtaining another AC72, as limited by Article 29.2(a).

Kiwi_Jon's quoted text from JN47 is much more tricky. You have to read pp22 (below) to make it clear. PP22 says that JN47 does not revise or clearify the previous decisions. That means that point 39 still stands. So how do you then interpertat pp18 that KJ quotes. It says in plain language that training and racing is not prohibited. But it does not revise or clearify point 39 above, so, as clearly stated in prior JN24, the boats become surrogates. 29.4 does not ban training or racing with LR but it does make it unattractive if TNZ wants to build a second boat.

22. The discussion paragraphs of this Decision do not provide a clarification or revision of AC11, which was requested by Artemis Racing. They provide confirmation of the AC11 Decision and some additional comments on Article 33.4 in the context of the AC11 Decision to further assist Competitors.

On the 33.4 point KJ and I agree. They can share design information up to Jan 1st, but not performance information from sailing.

39. Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two Competitors’ yachts but if there is an arrangement to share performance information then there is likely to be a breach of Article 33.4.
I read what I wanted to read - the qualification against 33.4. I didn't see the "Also, for both..... You're quite right.

#59 maxmini

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:09 AM


18. The Jury Decision in AC11, and specifically paragraphs 16 and 21 when read in conjunction, does not prohibit two Competitors from engaging in training or practice racing together. This similarly applies to both Article 29.4 and 33.4.


Jury Answer: Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two
Competitors’ yachts.


You both are, I believe, missing the key point that 33.4 and 29.4 are completely seperate and independent points.

Yes, they are allowed to race (or line up) by the protocal (it is not forbidden by 33.4) . . . BUT if they do then TNZ can't build a second boat, because they have become each others surrogates by 29.4. The only exception is if they get official permission from ACEA to race.

Indio is simply reading badly. The full text of JN 24 is quite clear. Racing is allowed but two competitors racing make them each other's surrogates:

JN24 QUESTION 3
38. Would ORACLE Racing (OR) and Competitor B (CB) remain compliant with the Rules if OR and CB sail their AC72 Yachts in collaboration? They conduct a two boat test program to develop their design. Each yacht would not sail more than 30 days and this arrangement would conclude prior to 1st January 2013.

39. Yes. There is no Article that prohibits the conducting of mere practice races between two Competitors’ yachts but if there is an arrangement to share performance information then there is likely to be a breach of Article 33.4. Also, for both OR and CB the other Competitor’s AC72 would meet the definition of ‘Surrogate Yacht’ (Article 1.1 (xx)). Using such Surrogate Yacht for training or for testing and development as described in Article 29.4 would constitute the acquisition of an AC72. While this does not breach any Article of the Protocol in itself, this would then prohibit either Competitor from acquiring, building or otherwise obtaining another AC72, as limited by Article 29.2(a).

Kiwi_Jon's quoted text from JN47 is much more tricky. You have to read pp22 (below) to make it clear. PP22 says that JN47 does not revise or clearify the previous decisions. That means that point 39 still stands. So how do you then interpertat pp18 that KJ quotes. It says in plain language that training and racing is not prohibited. But it does not revise or clearify point 39 above, so, as clearly stated in prior JN24, the boats become surrogates. 29.4 does not ban training or racing with LR but it does make it unattractive if TNZ wants to build a second boat.

22. The discussion paragraphs of this Decision do not provide a clarification or revision of AC11, which was requested by Artemis Racing. They provide confirmation of the AC11 Decision and some additional comments on Article 33.4 in the context of the AC11 Decision to further assist Competitors.

The trickest point of all is in jn33 pp17. It suggests that it is open to judgement and interpertation when training becomse a surrogate. But if I were AR or OR, I would ask why are they lining up if they are not developping their AC72.

On the 33.4 point KJ and I agree. They can share design information up to Jan 1st, but not performance information from sailing


This could end up being a very " expensive " practice series down the road . Lawyers take your marks :)

#60 Estar

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:27 AM

I didn't see the "Also, for both..... You're quite right.


Thanks, but you may be premature . . . I am still struggling with some of the wording in the JN33 decision. I thought I understood this when SEIS and I debated it, but it seems very confused now.

Specifically the following seems directly inconsistent with the JN24 in my post above, and to support your and KJ's position. JN 24 (above post) says clearly that racing together creates surrogates, while the below jn33 says it may not, And JN47 says that it does not offer any clarification or revision. So, I am left feeling they have produced two directly contradictory decisions and not resolved them.

JN33

17 It is only when they gain information that can be used for the development of their AC72 that the first sentence of Article 29.4 is satisfied and an AC72 Yacht is acquired. It follows that it is possible for a Competitor to acquire an AC72 when training with another Competitor, but it is also possible to avoid doing so.
18.If two Competitors agree to train together (including practice racing against each other) but do not by that act alone share information that cannot be gained by observation from a permitted external position (using instruments if necessary), they do not acquire an AC72 Yacht.

#61 hoom

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:50 AM

One thing I'll be expecting to see is LR using straight boards for a while.

ETNZ might not be able to get exact performance numbers but it should be quite easy to get a good idea of if their VPP is right or not on overall performance difference.

#62 Xlot

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:58 AM

^^

Not really straight boards, let's say AR's "J" ones. Significant rocker should mean some lift contribution is required.

#63 Estar

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:08 AM

^^

Not really straight boards, let's say AR's "J" ones. Significant rocker should mean some lift contribution is required.


Really, with limited number of boards, and access to TNZ's current test data, you think they would be building 'foil lite' boards? Why?

Don't you think they desperately need to learn how to foil. - that is their primary sailing challenge/mission They can be careful with the wind speed on their sailing days and with wing power as they learn, in order to be safe.

#64 knarly34

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:09 AM

Its ETNZ hull B practically. Looks quite weird in that black wrap shit, hope it reveals a beautiful white hull soon.

#65 Xlot

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:36 AM

Really, with limited number of boards, and access to TNZ's current test data, you think they would be building 'foil lite' boards? Why?

Don't you think they desperately need to learn how to foil. - that is their primary sailing challenge/mission They can be careful with the wind speed on their sailing days and with wing power as they learn, in order to be safe.


You may well be right, but it seems to me that - with ETNZ being so far ahead on the curve - they should concentrate on low-risk learning for quite a while without rushing it - they already totaled an SL33 wing.
Also, I'm sure actual performance with foil-assist-optimized boards as compared to S/Ls would be of mutual interest.

After all, their realistic mission in AC34 is to beat AR and be a valid sparring partner for ETNZ, no?





#66 NZLbenny

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:42 AM

Yes my shot. Took a detour heading into westhaven marina. To my eye the boat and the aft of the wing were covered in a black vinyl/shrink wrap.

#67 Estar

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:03 AM

On the TNZ/LR protocol racing question . . . there seems to me to be an unresolved conflict in the jury decisions . . . but lets say we go with the later decision (which KJ likes). The essence of it is that TNZ and LR can line up and race if and only if they do not share any performance information off the boats that could not be collected by a chase boat at the required minimum 200m stand off distance.

Of the face of it that seems simple.

But it really means that there can be no pictures or video taken off the boats while sailing, none taken from closer than 200m. Otherwise, those pics could reveal board settings or wind speed (from instrument displaces in the pics) or any of the other information specifically not allowed. And that restriction would seem to apply right thru the start of the LVC, because it is to prevent development of the boats, not just the design of the boats. So, no vids or pics from off the boat or from closer than 200m. #1 How is that going to work with the desire for on board cameras in the, and #2 will be sponsors be happy between now with only distance photos and not the great close-up action shots we have gotten used to.

Also it means no sharing of flat whites between the TNZ and LR team members. Sailors talk and there has to be an absolute total wall about what goes on while sailing. And no talking to the press about how it was sailing - not talk about masthead wind speeds or how it felt on the boards or any other even qualitative information that could not have been observed from 200m. That's also going to be a bit of a downer from a sponsor/PR perspective.

They need to be really careful here. Because the bright line is 'no information that could not be gathered from a chase boat at 200m', and AR/OR will be waiting for any sign that this line has been crossed even qualitatively

#68 Estar

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:07 AM

After all, their realistic mission in AC34 is to beat AR and be a valid sparring partner for ETNZ, no?


:) if you say so. I would dream of winning if I was Italian.

You know more about boards than I do. It just seemed to me that foiling is the key experience curve that needs to be gotten down as quickly and as far as possible.

Do remember that LR have to design their own boards after Jan 1st.

#69 PeterHuston

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:24 AM


After all, their realistic mission in AC34 is to beat AR and be a valid sparring partner for ETNZ, no?


:) if you say so. I would dream of winning if I was Italian.

You know more about boards than I do. It just seemed to me that foiling is the key experience curve that needs to be gotten down as quickly and as far as possible.

Do remember that LR have to design their own boards after Jan 1st.


In my view, it isn't so much the straight line speed when foiling that will matter, it is the control during the turns that will be critical. This isn't like they are going to sail miles in one direction on the same jibe. Could be they will never sail more than half a mile on the same jibe at any one time. Even a mile isn't all that much. But of course, Kiwi's have a massive advantage, and it is basically over already (or so many seem to think).

#70 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:19 AM

In my view, it isn't so much the straight line speed when foiling that will matter, it is the control during the turns that will be critical.

And during bear away too, isn't it ? :D

#71 SimonN

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:58 AM

Don't you think they desperately need to learn how to foil. - that is their primary sailing challenge/mission

I have no idea what their priorities are, but if I were 2 boat testing, I would want one to be sailing in non foiloing mode and the other up on foils in order to see which is faster around the course. I don't think GD was bluffing when he said that they didn't know what would be fastest. It seems to me that ETNZ has spent all its time learning how to get the most out of the boat when foiling and havn't yet tested a non foiling configuration, which would need different boards. It would make a lot of sense for LR to start with a non foiling configuration rather than spending initial time playing catch up and maybe not be so useful for 2 boat testing.

#72 SW Sailor

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:08 AM


Don't you think they desperately need to learn how to foil. - that is their primary sailing challenge/mission

I have no idea what their priorities are, but if I were 2 boat testing, I would want one to be sailing in non foiloing mode and the other up on foils in order to see which is faster around the course. I don't think GD was bluffing when he said that they didn't know what would be fastest. It seems to me that ETNZ has spent all its time learning how to get the most out of the boat when foiling and havn't yet tested a non foiling configuration, which would need different boards. It would make a lot of sense for LR to start with a non foiling configuration rather than spending initial time playing catch up and maybe not be so useful for 2 boat testing.


Now don't go interjecting logic into a perfectly dysfunctional conversation.

#73 Terry Hollis

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:58 AM


Don't you think they desperately need to learn how to foil. - that is their primary sailing challenge/mission

I have no idea what their priorities are, but if I were 2 boat testing, I would want one to be sailing in non foiloing mode and the other up on foils in order to see which is faster around the course. I don't think GD was bluffing when he said that they didn't know what would be fastest. It seems to me that ETNZ has spent all its time learning how to get the most out of the boat when foiling and havn't yet tested a non foiling configuration, which would need different boards. It would make a lot of sense for LR to start with a non foiling configuration rather than spending initial time playing catch up and maybe not be so useful for 2 boat testing.


Yes I agree with that .. The chances are that LR will launch a foil assist version to test against ETNZ ..

#74 hoom

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:01 AM

I guess it depends how friendly they are really.

If both teams are interested in the speed difference round a course between non-foiling vs foiling & ETNZ is the 'senior' partner you'd expect the 'junior' partner LR would be the one who might be willing to 'sacrifice' a pair of boards to that.

#75 amc

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:16 AM


Don't you think they desperately need to learn how to foil. - that is their primary sailing challenge/mission

I have no idea what their priorities are, but if I were 2 boat testing, I would want one to be sailing in non foiloing mode and the other up on foils in order to see which is faster around the course. I don't think GD was bluffing when he said that they didn't know what would be fastest. It seems to me that ETNZ has spent all its time learning how to get the most out of the boat when foiling and havn't yet tested a non foiling configuration, which would need different boards. It would make a lot of sense for LR to start with a non foiling configuration rather than spending initial time playing catch up and maybe not be so useful for 2 boat testing.



I think they already know, they should have a stack of data from their sl33 testing that would only need to be validated for the 72.

#76 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:51 PM

at AC.com
Ready to launch – Italian AC72 hits the water this week

#77 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:22 PM

'Luna Rossa base in Auckland’s Westhaven Marina' from a SW newsletter at http://www.sail-worl...d=0&tickerCID=0

Posted Image

#78 Rennmaus

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:30 PM

"The other site" shows two impressive photos by oceanphotography.co.nz.

#79 Boybland

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:35 PM

5 days of cracker weather predicted in Auckland, LR would be very well served getting that baby in the water today!

#80 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:36 PM

"The other site" shows two impressive photos by oceanphotography.co.nz.

Thanks. I just know they won't keep it black but it does look pretty wicked in that livery

Sites are saying 6pm local on Friday eve, (6am Italy time?) and that Bertelli will be there for it. Will be 2PM Thursday SF time, right?

#81 Rennmaus

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:43 PM


"The other site" shows two impressive photos by oceanphotography.co.nz.

Thanks. I just know they won't keep it black but it does look pretty wicked in that livery

Sites are saying 6pm local on Friday eve, (6am Italy time?) and that Bertelli will be there for it. Will be 2PM Thursday SF time, right?

7am Italy time, daylight saving time is (finally) over here the following Sunday.
West Coast time: 10pm, Thursday.

#82 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:55 PM

^ Thanks, Rennie

Images by Chris Cameron, and Oceanphotography

First attempt at a wing comparison

Posted Image

#83 Xlot

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:35 PM

Lead element twist (same alternate hinged ribs), but oddly the big PRADA sign doesn't show the break/lip for the plain flap


#84 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:00 PM

I wonder who will get the helm first. Could even be Cammas.

#85 eric e

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:48 PM

the hulls have a complete wrap

even the hull luna rossa in red in billowing

#86 Scarecrow

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:53 PM

Isn't there a rule that they're not allowed to cover hulls etc?

#87 Barnyb

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:01 PM


"The other site" shows two impressive photos by oceanphotography.co.nz.

Thanks. I just know they won't keep it black but it does look pretty wicked in that livery

Sites are saying 6pm local on Friday eve, (6am Italy time?) and that Bertelli will be there for it. Will be 2PM Thursday SF time, right?



Bertelli and his wife arrived in Akld yesterday (Tuesday). Thursday 10.30am press conference, Friday 6.30pm launch (followed by dancing!) Time = NZT (12 hours ahead of London time)

Prada brings a level of style, in many respects to this cup. It is this style that won the hearts of NZ fans when the cup was held here.

#88 Rohanoz

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:21 PM

The boats will be identical for at least the first half dozen sails. You really think they will hit the water sprinting without even taking time to learn the platform and figure out all the usual new boat stuff?
If everything is perfect and no build issues are found I expect they will run the program as follows:

Day 1 - Max 5-8kts wind. Softly, softly. Long session towing. Check everything. 2-3 hour sail and back to the dock for a full debrief.
Day 2 - Max 10/12 knts wind. Load up platform with masthead screecher and fly a hull upwind. Some manoeuvres with sails up and down, and a bit of tacking and gybing.
Day 3/4 - Max 15kt wind. Focus on foils and systems. Crew work. Some loaded up bearaways. Long straight line speed and balance calibration. Short foiling periods.
Day 5-8 - Up to 30kts wind. Ramp up confidence in simulated race conditions. Buoy roundings, acceleration, low/high speed manoeuvres, sails up/down. Learning time to foil, heel angles, sheet tensions. Refining systems on board. Ensure targets and actuals are identical to ETNZ observed numbers. Some aero work.
Days 9-15 - Beginning of experimentation and testing of comparison ideas with ETNZ - within the rules boundaries of course.

Reconfigure and refining time off.

Days 16-20 - Sailing in all conditions. Practicing in the mode which has been determined as fastest. Experiment with new foils and sail refinements.
Days 21-25 - All conditions - seek out choppier water for full-on race simulations.
Days 26-28 - Full aero kit out, last ideas run.
Days 29-30 - 5am to 9pm racing simulation. Success determined if they come off the water at 9pm, leave the boat on the swing, and back out again next day without doing anything but give it a hose off.

#89 onimod

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:33 PM

I wonder who will get the helm first. Could even be Cammas.

I think I'd pick Draper.
I'm a huge Iker fan, but his first SF showing was pretty dismal.
Of course there are other potential reasons for that other then just the helmsman.
I don't understand how they plan to integrate Franck Iker, Chris and Paul.
According to the LR site:
FC is "Coach" - yeah right - like you wouldn't let him have a steer. I'm also interested to see how he fits in when he doesn't have the final say...or does he?
Iker is "Helmsman/Afterguard" - I don't doubt his inshore tactical value, but he hasn't demonstrated that it translates or the AC format yet.
Chris and Paul are both still listed as "Helmsman".
Does anyone know if they're all in Auckland yet?

#90 hoom

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:19 PM

Isn't there a rule that they're not allowed to cover hulls etc?

Yes, though I think they could most likely successfully argue they aren't hiding the shape, just the logos/colour scheme?

Hmm nope.
http://mediacenter.a...34-Protocol.pdf

31 SHROUDING
Competitors’ yachts shall not be shrouded at any time. Use of protective wrapping
during shipment, placing a yacht in a building or shelter with a solid floor for storage or to
carry out maintenance or modifications, or the use of protective covers while sanding or
painting shall not constitute shrouding.


They almost certainly are carrying out maintenance or modifications though.

#91 Boybland

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:08 AM

Isn't there a rule that they're not allowed to cover hulls etc?

Yes, though I think they could most likely successfully argue they aren't hiding the shape, just the logos/colour scheme?

Hmm nope.
http://mediacenter.a...34-Protocol.pdf

31 SHROUDING
Competitors’ yachts shall not be shrouded at any time. Use of protective wrapping
during shipment, placing a yacht in a building or shelter with a solid floor for storage or to
carry out maintenance or modifications, or the use of protective covers while sanding or
painting shall not constitute shrouding.


They almost certainly are carrying out maintenance or modifications though.


I wonder if this is relevant prior to the yacht being launched, especially considering that they are almost certainly picking it up and placing it on a solid floor and moving it in and out out of the shed while practicing lifting it, besides we all know it's a direct copy of ETNZ and is being launched in a couple of days so for another team to complain would pretty much be the pinnacle of pettiness.

#92 Indio

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:31 AM

I wonder if this is relevant prior to the yacht being launched, especially considering that they are almost certainly picking it up and placing it on a solid floor and moving it in and out out of the shed while practicing lifting it, besides we all know it's a direct copy of ETNZ and is being launched in a couple of days so for another team to complain would pretty much be the pinnacle of pettiness.

Don't put it past the AR-OR civil union. Remember their co-ordinated protest over ETNZ-LR...

#93 boby1

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:42 AM

for the time been this colaboration is a real bonus for both teams. The LV final will be closser and the race to watch rather than the Cup itself ;)

#94 Indio

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:03 AM

for the time been this colaboration is a real bonus for both teams. The LV final will be closser and the race to watch rather than the Cup itself ;)

AR would be feeling like a Swedish hooker in a sandwich: stuffed!!

#95 sunseeker

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:26 AM


for the time been this colaboration is a real bonus for both teams. The LV final will be closser and the race to watch rather than the Cup itself ;)

AR would be feeling like a Swedish hooker in a sandwich: stuffed!!


At least Artemis would have women. Hot women

You guys have sheep. Baaaaa.

#96 gregj1

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:56 AM




With no one with half a clue and all the shit going on how long to you give the well dressed boys from Italie? And they are just dripping with talent are't they.............................


If carnage, capzize's, pitchpoles and mayhem brings in the audience's as with the extreme40's then this could be the most watched AC ever. Who care's bring it on.....................

......As long as no one gets hurt of coursexx


You think someone getting hurt will hurt viewership? haha. What was nascar before Sr. died?


a lot more popular, fuckhead

#97 Indio

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:56 AM



for the time been this colaboration is a real bonus for both teams. The LV final will be closser and the race to watch rather than the Cup itself ;)

AR would be feeling like a Swedish hooker in a sandwich: stuffed!!


At least Artemis would have women. Hot women

You guys have sheep. Baaaaa.

Lamb chops - God created them for BBQs and lamb curries!

#98 bluelaser

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:08 AM





With no one with half a clue and all the shit going on how long to you give the well dressed boys from Italie? And they are just dripping with talent are't they.............................


If carnage, capzize's, pitchpoles and mayhem brings in the audience's as with the extreme40's then this could be the most watched AC ever. Who care's bring it on.....................

......As long as no one gets hurt of coursexx


You think someone getting hurt will hurt viewership? haha. What was nascar before Sr. died?


a lot more popular, fuckhead


Nascar's viewership was nothing compared to the post senior era. People watch nascar for the crashes.

#99 Barnyb

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:30 AM

Why would LR hide their wing and hulls?

Maybe a special silver/chrome paint job?

Maybe some new sponsors (Cathay +)?

Maybe viagra - promoting a stiff platform!

#100 eric e

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:44 AM

Why would LR hide their wing and hulls?


they're italian

a virgin paint-job isn't good enough for the unveiling

the veil makes it extra-virgin

as opposed to the poor old artemis ac72

fucked before launch





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