30 replies to this topic

[HKG1997]

Hi I am looking at buying my first yacht, and want somthing fast such as a sport yacht buit i would also love to do longer coastal races. would it be at all possible to get a sport yacht such as a shaw 750 to get offshore Cat 3

any help is most appreciated, thanks

[windseekeryachts]

Gp26 is cat3 compliant. Www.wraceboats.com

[MSA]

Look at the Special Regs in your RRS book.

I would think not based on some racing needing the boats to have a base SSS value that generaly prohibits very light SB's. Some rces also have minimum length requirements.

Also the inboard requirement is a heavy option for a small boat, but doable.

Look at something closer to 9m..

[MSA]

But the GP 26 is a good option.

[GybeSet®]

would it be at all possible to get a sport yacht such as a shaw 750 to get offshore Cat 3

t r 0 l l

[XLR8]

It will be VERY hard for Shaw 750 to get OSR Cat3. Consider GP 26.

[tur102]

^{Farr 25 is also CAT 3 compliant boat,
standart equipment including battery, nav lights, also has enough cabin space, for costal races.( options has flexinle water tank with inline pomp )
you just need to add portable toilet for CAT 3
www.farr25.com}

[Heriberto]

Cat 2 is where an inboard is required, although some races that is either added or deleted. Cat 3 mainly is lights, stantions/pulpits, hatch openings, toilet. Stability (beyond self-righting) and length requirements aren't in Cat 3 (except how they affect the above), but may be a separate addition to the SI.For a smallish Cat 3 boat, and I know I sound like a broken record, but the GP26 formula really seems to have hit a sweet spot.

[GybeSet®]

.
In Aus you'll need an inboard mounted motor, permanently 'fitted' , not 100% about nz or hkg

[Jim Donovan]

Gp26 is cat3 compliant. Www.wraceboats.com

To be absolutely clear, the GP 26 rule requires Cat 4 for GP 26 class racing.

My GP 26 design is Cat 3 capable with required safety equipment aboard:
Additional to the equipment required for Cat 4, you add the following:

Permanently fitted bilge pump operable from cockpit
Magnetic compass (may be hand-held)
Spare nav lights
Propulsion engine (may be an outboard)
Main radio reciever additional to hand-held VHF (if main radio is VHF, then min power 25W w/antenna on masthead)
GPS
Ability to fit jackstays
Safety harness clip points
1 x Anchor
Emergency tiller

[Jim Donovan]

Gp26 is cat3 compliant. Www.wraceboats.com

To be absolutely clear, the GP 26 rule requires Cat 4 for GP 26 class racing.

My GP 26 design is Cat 3 capable with required safety equipment aboard:
Additional to the equipment required for Cat 4, you add the following:

Permanently fitted bilge pump operable from cockpit
Magnetic compass (may be hand-held)
Spare nav lights
Propulsion engine (may be an outboard)
Main radio reciever additional to hand-held VHF (if main radio is VHF, then min power 25W w/antenna on masthead)
GPS
Ability to fit jackstays
Safety harness clip points
1 x Anchor
Emergency tiller

For normal inshore racing, you wouldn't want to have all this equipment aboard, and the Cat 4 requirements are much more practical.

But many sportboats lack the arrangement of hatches, structures, stabilty, and equipment to even qualify for Cat 4 races.

[Mojounwin]

.
In Aus you'll need an inboard mounted motor, permanently 'fitted' , not 100% about nz or hkg

In Australia Inboard is only required for Cat 1 & 2. Outboards are fine for Cat 3 and below unless otherwise stated in the sailing instructions.

Cheers
Mojo

[MSA]

Outboard is fine, but they arent happy with them hanging of the back and they need permanently fitted fuel tanks, I.e a small OB with inbuilt tank.. nono..

There is a lot more stuff going from Cat 4 to 3..

And like i said, some places don't like small boats entering so they put a length restriction.

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[MSA]

That is YA compliance card, this year.

[Mojounwin]

I can't see anywhere in the blue book where it says an outboard can't be stern mounted. Just needs to be securely fixed

Cheers
Mojo

[MSA]

Heel a boat 15+ degrees and try use an outboard in any seaway.. not much propulsion but a lot of spinning..

I have been told by a safety officer it would not be accepted at inspection.. Happy to be corrected as it makes a lot more boats accessible to cat 3.. You also got me thinking so i re-quized him 5 minutes ago and he is checking but he said,

outboard in a well. Ok, hanging on the back. no.. Maybe it is just their interpretation of means of propulsion.

[tur102]

HKG 1997,
Farr 25 OD has fitted 6 HP outboard engine with artuculating arm , ıt has also separate fuel tank under cocpit sole into its own place.
that meets CAT 3 engine requirements,
Farr 25 standart also has Cat 3 compliant pulpit, pushpit and stancions with nav lights, 103 PE silva compass already mounted aft side of cabin.

also standart boat has: Southern spars mast boom and spirit, weed knife, Karver KF1 furler under deck into furler recces, Harken - spinlock -wichards fittings, sheet bags, ,

[Mojounwin]

I agree, an outboard off the back in swell is useless, but I just can't find anything to say they are disallowed by the rules.

Cheers
Mojo

[MSA]

Talking to the safety officer it is an interpretation they make on weather a boat is safe or not.. trying to find out more... and the exact ruling.

I know where your coming from as I can't find it anywhere either.

[Heriberto]

Gp26 is cat3 compliant. Www.wraceboats.com

To be absolutely clear, the GP 26 rule requires Cat 4 for GP 26 class racing.

My GP 26 design is Cat 3 capable with required safety equipment aboard:
Additional to the equipment required for Cat 4, you add the following:

Permanently fitted bilge pump operable from cockpit
Magnetic compass (may be hand-held)
Spare nav lights
Propulsion engine (may be an outboard)
Main radio reciever additional to hand-held VHF (if main radio is VHF, then min power 25W w/antenna on masthead)
GPS
Ability to fit jackstays
Safety harness clip points
1 x Anchor
Emergency tiller

I actually don't see a problem with carrying this equipment (you also need a permanently fitted toilet, which always is a problem, that's what the damn bucket is for). I suppose it depends on where you are sailing. Some might balk at the masthead VHF, but they all would be minimum requirements for even near shore racing in my opinion in a boat this size.

At the extreme risk of correcting Jim, I think the emergency tiller is only if you have a composite (i.e. carbon), or wood tiller rather than aluminum or metal. Which his boat has, but for other boats it may not be an issue. I would have to look if it also says you need an alternate method of steering. The nav lights have to be ORC 3 compliant, and most of the problems in these small boats are that the stanchions, pulpits and lifeline arrangements, as well as the hatches and lighting, are designed for hiking and inshore racing.

Like I said, there is no inboard motor requirement under ORC Cat 3, however this could be added in the safety requirements of the NOR/SI, they can also add things like minimum length, stability requirements, liferafts, etc.,. Likewise, they could delete inboard engine requirements from the NOR/SI from ORC Cat 2 requirements.

I need to read the latest ORC regs, but that is my understanding from 2010 or so version.

[Jim Donovan]

Cat 3 gear is all the same stuff we used to haul around on 25 foot 1/4 tonners.
Generally you found items that met the rule but had limited function; unless it's flat calm it's just too hard to try and use a galley stove at sea on a boat this size.

BTW: fitted bucket is okay - we have a place for either a bucket or porta-potti in the GP 26.

The rest of the gear is all reasonable for a yacht racing offshore.

[Ryley]

I actually don't see a problem with carrying this equipment (you also need a permanently fitted toilet, which always is a problem, that's what the damn bucket is for). I suppose it depends on where you are sailing. Some might balk at the masthead VHF, but they all would be minimum requirements for even near shore racing in my opinion in a boat this size.

At the extreme risk of correcting Jim, I think the emergency tiller is only if you have a composite (i.e. carbon), or wood tiller rather than aluminum or metal. Which his boat has, but for other boats it may not be an issue. I would have to look if it also says you need an alternate method of steering. The nav lights have to be ORC 3 compliant, and most of the problems in these small boats are that the stanchions, pulpits and lifeline arrangements, as well as the hatches and lighting, are designed for hiking and inshore racing.

Like I said, there is no inboard motor requirement under ORC Cat 3, however this could be added in the safety requirements of the NOR/SI, they can also add things like minimum length, stability requirements, liferafts, etc.,. Likewise, they could delete inboard engine requirements from the NOR/SI from ORC Cat 2 requirements.

I need to read the latest ORC regs, but that is my understanding from 2010 or so version.

you don't need a permanently installed head - you need that OR a fitted bucket. (3.18.2)

ORC Cat 3 says you need an alternative way of steering that has been tested - and yes, that may mean a spare tiller if the original is not made of 'unbreakable' metal. As an aside, my old tiller was 'unbreakable' metal. Part of the reason I replaced it with a carbon tiller is because it kept breaking, at the welds.

As far as the inboard/outboard requirement, all ORC Cat 3 has to say is that if it is an outboard, that 1) it is mounted in accordance with the manufacturer's specs, 2) can push the boat for 8 hours at a speed of Square Root of the Waterline in Feet, and that the tanks are secure. I know an OA can make things more or less strict; however, it would seem that if the SI's say CAT 3, unless the Australian national authority has amended the ORC Cat 3 similarly to the US Sailing prescriptions, the regulations shouldn't be open to 'interpretation.' I'd think that would be grounds for appeal, but.. not being Australian, maybe that's a bigger deal than it appears. I certainly can see why you would have stricter regulations than at least most places in the States.

[Ryley]

Oh, and by the way - wraceboats GP26 with main, 2 jibs, and 2 spins is just a hair more (48,725 Euros) than a Farr 25 base boat (48,620 Euros) with no sails. Both boats built in Turkey, both with carbon spars. I know which way I would go if I were looking for a boat that is Cat 4 out of the box and Cat 3 with minimal effort.

[rantifarian]

We raced our Beale 850 in our local Cat 3 + race a few times, it wasn't that hard to achieve in that boat. The points, relating to fixed hardware, that differ between Cat 3 and 4 are noted below.
1. Uprated companionway hatch regulations, Cat A instead of Cat B. May or may not be an issue.
2. Toe Rails. Permanently mounted does include securely bolted onto the stanchion bases, in the interpretation we received, so a piece of bent aluminium box section curved between the fored stanchion bases worked well.
3. Stove, permanently installed or securely fastened. Unsure if a little camping stove with a screw through the base would count, but I expect it would be fine.
4. Water tanks and a pump. We used a 200L bladder under the V berth.
5. Increased access to the bilge pump - you cant have it hidden away anywhere. Also worth noting is that some clubs will have a requirement for a second bilge pump.
6. Radio - VHF antenna on the mast. Not many trailer boats have this, and I don't think it was a requirement when we last did the race.
7. propulsion - outboards are fine, but a securely installed fuel system is required. It also must be able to push you along at the speed noted in the rules. The 3hp shitters seen on a lot of sportsboats wont cut it
8. Batteries - you will need a starting and house battery, unless you can pull start your engine.
9. Jackstay mounts

You have to carry a bunch of extra gear like anchors and spare lights, but that is as easy as finding a place to store it.

If we go back to the initial query, a Shaw 750 won't get Cat 3 approval, it has racks for fucks sake. A Shaw 750 T, on the other hand, should be able to be setup with some modification work. Most of the decent 7.5m+ trailer sailers (beale 850, Ross780, Austral 8, spider 28 etc) can meet it easily.

[MSA]

Another phone call. The club i am referring to prohibit outboards on the stern for Cat 3 based on the fact they have not met anyone that wants to carry a large enough HP motor and enough fuel mounted on the deck (Outboard fuel can not be stored below) to meet the minimum Speed/distance requirements.

Ie they had 36 footers with 10HP Short leg outboards and people storing the fuel on the keel bolts... No way that would do 5.8knots... Some would rate with 20hp motors then put a 10hp on for racing.. Easiest way to fix the problem is to not sign their compliance cards and amend the NOR/SI's.

Hey Ranti - I don't have my Special regs handy but I though 3.17 had something about the stove/cooker needing to self gimble?

By the time you buy a Shaw 750, do the required Mods and I presume there would be a lot.. It would be pretty hard to justify the spending over a new GP 26..

He told me this is common place in AUS special regs unless it is for a historically tame Cat 3 or they have support boats etc I.e putting in place other safety measures to allow large fleet numbers where they have calculated minimum risk.

[rantifarian]

3.20.1 A cooking stove, permanently installed or securely
fastened with safe accessible fuel shutoff control and
capable of being safely operated in a seaway.

I thought there was a passage about gimballing too, but that is all that is mentioned about the stove.

My club runs a 200 mile race from yeppoon to mackay, which is Cat 3 as it stays inside the islands all the way up. We have these extras on top of the standard OSR

Section 3.20.5 – amended to “Two (2) manual bilge pumps”
Section 3.24.4 – with the addition of “Outboard motors must not be mounted on the
transom”
Section 3.24.5(d) – Each yacht will carry sufficient fuel for 10 hours motoring
Section 4.10.1 – Each yacht must carry (a whole bunch of) charts in paper form

Section 4.11 – A second GPS which is hand held and water resistant with a spare battery(s).
Sections 4.18.2 and 4.18.4 – The number of EPIRBs carried on board shall be not less than
the number of liferafts or inflatables carried on the boat.
Section 4.19 – Each yacht will carry a liferaft or inflatable that is capable of carrying the
entire crew.


We added the no transom mounted outboard note mainly because of how useless they are in heavy weather, and particularly waves. When the stern lifts over a wave, a transom mounted donk will kick out of the water pretty regularly, whereas an inboard-mounted-outboard will stay in the water a lot longer. They also tend to be better setup systems, with mounts designed into the boat from scratch, rather than an outboard plate bolted wherever the owner feels like it on the transom, and semi permanent fuel lines, power and controls.
It allowed the larger trailer buckets, which are pretty common up here, to do the race, without jeopardizing the safety. A 10Hp short leg pushed our 28' trailer sailer along at 7 knots + in flat water, which is more than can be said for a lot of race yacht inboards.

[MSA]

Yeah My interpretation of "Safely operated at sea" means gimalling.. I cant see boiling a kettle on a crooked stove being "Safe".. Another interpretation....

[tur102]

3.20.1 A cooking stove, permanently installed or securely
fastened with safe accessible fuel shutoff control and
capable of being safely operated in a seaway.

I thought there was a passage about gimballing too, but that is all that is mentioned about the stove.

My club runs a 200 mile race from yeppoon to mackay, which is Cat 3 as it stays inside the islands all the way up. We have these extras on top of the standard OSR

Section 3.20.5 – amended to “Two (2) manual bilge pumps”
Section 3.24.4 – with the addition of “Outboard motors must not be mounted on the
transom”
Section 3.24.5(d) – Each yacht will carry sufficient fuel for 10 hours motoring
Section 4.10.1 – Each yacht must carry (a whole bunch of) charts in paper form

Section 4.11 – A second GPS which is hand held and water resistant with a spare battery(s).
Sections 4.18.2 and 4.18.4 – The number of EPIRBs carried on board shall be not less than
the number of liferafts or inflatables carried on the boat.
Section 4.19 – Each yacht will carry a liferaft or inflatable that is capable of carrying the
entire crew.


We added the no transom mounted outboard note mainly because of how useless they are in heavy weather, and particularly waves. When the stern lifts over a wave, a transom mounted donk will kick out of the water pretty regularly, whereas an inboard-mounted-outboard will stay in the water a lot longer. They also tend to be better setup systems, with mounts designed into the boat from scratch, rather than an outboard plate bolted wherever the owner feels like it on the transom, and semi permanent fuel lines, power and controls.
It allowed the larger trailer buckets, which are pretty common up here, to do the race, without jeopardizing the safety. A 10Hp short leg pushed our 28' trailer sailer along at 7 knots + in flat water, which is more than can be said for a lot of race yacht inboards.

You do not interested but, New Farr 25 OD has every thing what you looking for.
That boat designed and produced for CAT 3 , has inboard-mounted-outboard engine, reaches 6.7-6.8 knots with 6HP, the gas tank stored inside of the boat under cocpitsole, the standart equ has manuel bilge pomp ( whale ) 103 P silva compass, deck moulded toerails,right distance beetween stancions and pulpit-puspits, The puspits compliant to CAT 3, has battery for lights,
the selling options has 45 l water tank with pomp, portable toilets, stove

[Ryley]

yeah tur, we get it. you love your farr 25. now.. buy an ad.

regarding the outboard rules you guys are imposing outside of the cat 3 limits, sounds to me like 1) you're removing sound boat design from the equation, 2) why don't you just say the races are cat 2 and be done with it? 3) do your skippers have any say in whether they feel their boats and crew are qualified for the racing? A lot of the 'extras' you cite rantifarian are supposed to be aboard no matter what cat, like paper charts for the area you're sailing. I dunno.. I just know that the next time someone tells me the US is a 'nanny state' I'll point at this thread

[Heriberto]

We added the no transom mounted outboard note mainly because of how useless they are in heavy weather, and particularly waves. When the stern lifts over a wave, a transom mounted donk will kick out of the water pretty regularly, whereas an inboard-mounted-outboard will stay in the water a lot longer. They also tend to be better setup systems, with mounts designed into the boat from scratch, rather than an outboard plate bolted wherever the owner feels like it on the transom, and semi permanent fuel lines, power and controls.
It allowed the larger trailer buckets, which are pretty common up here, to do the race, without jeopardizing the safety. A 10Hp short leg pushed our 28' trailer sailer along at 7 knots + in flat water, which is more than can be said for a lot of race yacht inboards.

I've delivered my 30 footer in fairly big, steep waves with a stern-mounted, long shaft, 8hp Nissan outboard with deck mounted fuel tanks with absolutely no difficulty whatever. Deliveries of over 90 miles, usually at 7-8 knots. This rule is poorly written.

[rantifarian]

regarding the outboard rules you guys are imposing outside of the cat 3 limits, sounds to me like 1) you're removing sound boat design from the equation, 2) why don't you just say the races are cat 2 and be done with it? 3) do your skippers have any say in whether they feel their boats and crew are qualified for the racing? A lot of the 'extras' you cite rantifarian are supposed to be aboard no matter what cat, like paper charts for the area you're sailing. I dunno.. I just know that the next time someone tells me the US is a 'nanny state' I'll point at this thread

We had a death a few years ago during the race, and a number of boats have sunk, so the club is pretty tight on the safety. The charts are specified to ensure they have enough detail to show all of the nasty little lumps and shallows, some of which are not marked on the larger charts of the area.
Sound boat design is a very subjective criteria, and relies on a skilled safety officer. We are a small club, all volunteer, so we need everything to be black and white to make sure it happens right every time.
Cat 2 requires an inboard engine, which would cut out all trailer sailers, and a proper life raft, which would cut out all the cruising boats who can use their inflatable by our rules. Wouldn't be enough boats in the region to run the race.

I've delivered my 30 footer in fairly big, steep waves with a stern-mounted, long shaft, 8hp Nissan outboard with deck mounted fuel tanks with absolutely no difficulty whatever. Deliveries of over 90 miles, usually at 7-8 knots. This rule is poorly written.

There will always be exceptions who get shafted by the rule, if a case came up with such a boat wanting to enter the race we could look at it further. So far it hasn't been an issue, and we have stopped anyone trying to get an elliot 7 or blazer 23 into the race. What design is that Heriboto? It looks familiar, but I can't think from where.