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Jury Notices & Decisions Thread

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#4601 eric e

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:06 AM

I understand the IJ is tired, grumpy and pissed off with OR. The detail that will come out in their findings do not paint OR in the best light.

 

The delay has been for good reasons, including working through the various implications of their proposed penalties. ISAF has been consulted. Even though NY courts should not be involved, there is concern that the severity of the originally proposed punishments (that's plural people) could lead to OR flying to NY in LE's private jet. The irony ! This serious concern has been at the front of the IJ's mind when considering the penalties and as a result will not be as severve as those put forward by some of the posters here.

 

You heard it hear first.

 

BJL

 

leaks all over the globe

 

not just the sappa cipic



#4602 Blackman

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:20 AM

You boggers still bleeding on about rudders should check out sail-worlds photos of OR training on the 2/9. And then stfu.

Thanks...  they are now legal, one boat with side rudder-winglet the other flat... may be they will measure :-)  4 days before the event, they really had to be with the real solution!

 

http://www.sail-worl...SFOAUG13870.jpg



#4603 Indio

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:25 AM

You boggers still bleeding on about rudders should check out sail-worlds photos of OR training on the 2/9. And then stfu.

Thanks...  they are now legal, one boat with side rudder-winglet the other flat... may be they will measure :-)  4 days before the event, they really had to be with the real solution!

 

http://www.sail-worl...SFOAUG13870.jpg

That's looks like B1 - 2 kingposts.



#4604 Calico Jack

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:30 AM

^^ looks class and CG permit legal too, who would of thought

#4605 Abraxas3

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:30 AM

^ But is this picture Photoshoped, or is B2 using oversized symmetrical elevators? 

http://www.sail-worl...SFOAUG11468.jpg

 

Alt_GG13SFOAUG11468.jpg

PS! I have not edited this picture!



#4606 Ross 780

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:33 AM

I hope this doesn't end up in the NYSC.

 

If ETNZ can figure out how to make the AC72 foil they can determine also Team Soracle's VMGs and speeds.

 

Grant Dalton is a canny and astute yachtie. They know they have the wood on Team Soracle and they are just pandering to their cerebral space about how fast B1 or B2 is. Remember 1995.We all know it is VMG that really matters.

 

Team Soracle has done maybe two actual races on the course. Seriously short of a gallop and match time. Most of their training seems to have been about trying to go faster, which suggests they are slower than ETNZ.

 

There for the picking so we sure as hell don't want to trust in the NYSC. Given they don't measure for the first two days should be of to a flying start. 



#4607 harzak

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:37 AM

You boggers still bleeding on about rudders should check out sail-worlds photos of OR training on the 2/9. And then stfu.

Thanks...  they are now legal, one boat with side rudder-winglet the other flat... may be they will measure :-)  4 days before the event, they really had to be with the real solution!

 

http://www.sail-worl...SFOAUG13870.jpg

 

 

^ But is this picture Photoshoped, or is B2 using oversized symmetrical elevators? 

http://www.sail-worl...SFOAUG11468.jpg

 

Wondering:

1. How do you see which is OR1 and OR2?

2. When were each of these photos taken?



#4608 Indio

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:40 AM

^ But is this picture Photoshoped, or is B2 using oversized symmetrical elevators? 

http://www.sail-worl...SFOAUG11468.jpg

 

Alt_GG13SFOAUG11468.jpg

PS! I have not edited this picture!

Hahaha, if that's OR-B2, ORTUSA have been trying the rope-a-dope on us all: they're really lining up B1 as their race boat.  :D



#4609 Indio

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:48 AM

Wondering:

1. How do you see which is OR1 and OR2?

2. When were each of these photos taken?

Alt_GG13SFOAUG13674.jpg

B2 (above) has 1 kingpost (+ smaller pod + board location)

B1 (below) has 2 kingposts (+ bigger pod + board location)

Alt_GG13SFOAUG13870.jpg



#4610 Abraxas3

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:54 AM

 

You boggers still bleeding on about rudders should check out sail-worlds photos of OR training on the 2/9. And then stfu.

Thanks...  they are now legal, one boat with side rudder-winglet the other flat... may be they will measure :-)  4 days before the event, they really had to be with the real solution!

 

http://www.sail-worl...SFOAUG13870.jpg

 

 

>^ But is this picture Photoshoped, or is B2 using oversized symmetrical elevators? 

http://www.sail-worl...SFOAUG11468.jpg

 

Wondering:

1. How do you see which is OR1 and OR2?

2. When were each of these photos taken?

 

It's not easy to be 100% sure of all of these. But B1 has two kingposts underneath their bowsprit and wing support structure, whilst B2 has only on kinpost and also a shorter and agnled cover over the aft part of this structure. The article in SailWorld does not state clearly that all the pictures where taken the same day, but it looks like it roughly the same conditions so they probably are. If anyone can piece together the names on the crew, it should be easier to verify which boat have the symmetrical rudders that seems to be wider than BMax, and thus wouldn't measure.



#4611 ibsailn

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:56 AM

^ Bob202, try looking at things after you've put the crack pipe down. A fresh enlightenment may come to you if you can get open-minded.

OTUSA never wanted or needed IM's Safety Sized rudder specs. It's been obvious for forever; except to all the idiots drinking the koolaid. ;)

If this is the case Stingray, what is your explanation for B1 having over-beam symetric rudders?



#4612 snaerk

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:00 AM

I think if you rang up OR and put the kwestchin you woud get put thru to Stingray.

 

Ime shore he woud be more than happy to help. Make shore yore sitting cumfortably.



#4613 Sean

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:02 AM

Would you guys stop with the rudders already please? If they race, it will be with rudders that measure full stop. This horse is well and truly dead.

#4614 bluekiwi

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:05 AM

It's not easy to be 100% sure of all of these. But B1 has two kingposts underneath their bowsprit and wing support structure, whilst B2 has only on kinpost and also a shorter and agnled cover over the aft part of this structure. The article in SailWorld does not state clearly that all the pictures where taken the same day, but it looks like it roughly the same conditions so they probably are. If anyone can piece together the names on the crew, it should be easier to verify which boat have the symmetrical rudders that seems to be wider than BMax, and thus wouldn't measure.

 

The photo attributions have dates. It appears the article picked up on the change in rudders because it seems to focus most on B1 "before" (August 24) and "after" (August 30) the modification.

 

Now the real speculation would be: why, at some point reasonably close to the Rule 69 hearing, would OR suddenly mod B1 to provide Ainslie with experience sailing with asym rudders? Could it be that he needs to "get up to speed" quickly?



#4615 Micke

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:06 AM

 

 

You boggers still bleeding on about rudders should check out sail-worlds photos of OR training on the 2/9. And then stfu.

Thanks...  they are now legal, one boat with side rudder-winglet the other flat... may be they will measure :-)  4 days before the event, they really had to be with the real solution!

 

http://www.sail-worl...SFOAUG13870.jpg

 

 

>>^ But is this picture Photoshoped, or is B2 using oversized symmetrical elevators? 

http://www.sail-worl...13SFOAUG11468.j

pglockquote>

 

Wondering:

1. How do you see which is OR1 and OR2?

2. When were each of these photos taken?

It's not easy to be 100% sure of all of these. But B1 has two kingposts underneath their bowsprit and wing support structure, whilst B2 has only on kinpost and also a shorter and agnled cover over the aft part of this structure. The article in SailWorld does not state clearly that all the pictures where taken the same day, but it looks like it roughly the same conditions so they probably are. If anyone can piece together the names on the crew, it should be easier to verify which boat have the symmetrical rudders that seems to be wider than BMax, and thus wouldn't measure.

 

 

Yes it does, according to the caption in the SW article:

http://www.sail-worl...n-images/113952

 

Alt_GG13SFOAUG11468.jpg

Oracle Team USA - Two boat testing session San Francisco (USA) August 24, 2013 -  Guilain Grenier-Oracle Racing©   Click Here to view large photo

 

Alt_GG13SFOAUG13870.jpg

Oracle Team USA - Two boat testing session San Francisco (USA) August 30, 2013 -  Guilain Grenier-Oracle Racing©   Click Here to view large photo


#4616 k-f-u

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:08 AM

only an aside, but they still don't have the ACTV gear installed. Another late surgery...

Edit: ssshhhhh

#4617 Abraxas3

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:09 AM

^ Sorry, somehow managed to miss the dates below the pictures.



#4618 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:12 AM

"No one is to start stoning until I blow this whistle ... even if they do say RUDDER"

 



#4619 eric e

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:19 AM

Attached File  compassionate-shark-friend-meme-generator-dude-thats-a-red-herring-forget-about-it-we-ve-got-bigger-fish-to-fry-f4f6b3.jpg   103.76K   4 downloads



#4620 Monster Mash

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:54 AM

only an aside, but they still don't have the ACTV gear installed. Another late surgery...

Edit: ssshhhhh

Towers are there on B2, pic taken 8-30

 

DSC_3148_zpsfd9bbb63.jpg



#4621 Monster Mash

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:59 AM

No towers on B1.  Pic taken 8-30

 

DSC_3169_zps30a62de2.jpg



#4622 wraith

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:03 PM

^ so, they have selected the boat, at least...



#4623 Micke

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:11 PM

^ so, they have selected the boat, at least...

 

Now they only need to get it measured...



#4624 onimod

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:15 PM

^ so, they have selected the boat, at least...

maybe

Isn't part of the IJ investigation to do with modifying the AC45 cross structure?

How many 'AC72's have OTUSA actually sailed?



#4625 k-f-u

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:32 PM


only an aside, but they still don't have the ACTV gear installed. Another late surgery...

Edit: ssshhhhh

Towers are there on B2, pic taken 8-30
 
DSC_3148_zpsfd9bbb63.jpg

Cheers!

#4626 hamdog

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:45 PM

BA's shirt name is visible on the boat with assyms in sailworlds 2nd picture above and that is boat 1. Dual king post. Why bother now testing this rudder unless boat weighs and could measure?

#4627 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:50 PM

Towers are there on B2, pic taken 8-30

Thank you for being there Monster Mash - your contributions are massively appreciated.



#4628 hamdog

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:58 PM

Yeah MM, you and a few other film/photo posters have been legends for keeping us all informed Cheers!

#4629 WetHog

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:04 PM

OR1 - Sym rudder foils and no media towers

OR2 - Asym rudder foils, media towers and fancy aero fairing under jib.

 

Safe to say for sure which boat OR plans to use? I think so.

 

WetHog :ph34r:



#4630 Abraxas3

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:10 PM

^ It turned out that the picture with the symmetrical rudder on B1 was taken August 24th, and on the pictures from the 30th they have asymmetrical rudders with a small tip on the outboard end of the elevator.

 

So technically I guess that rudder will be rule compliant now, and media towers must be possible to switch in an evening if they want to, so I guess they can still use B1 (altough it would be a surprise if the didn't manage to design a faster boat on their version 2!).



#4631 hamdog

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:19 PM

I'm wondering whether they have found that the easier to handle B2 is not matching etnz b2 with its post racing speed increases so they are being forced to reconsider the faster but harder to handle B1 in a high risk strategy. Maybe the 10 boat builders from nz are there to get it to measure

#4632 baygrass

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:24 PM

Did I miss something? Their is a lot of rudder talk here under the Jury Notices & Decisions. Is there a new protest or decision or are we off topic? I thought we have already been down this road and back. I took a look into here to see if their is any news on Weight-Gate. Now my whole office smells of dead beaten horse. Pee You!



#4633 Chris UK

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:35 PM

Media strategy = Choose a good day to bury bad news.

 

Oracle will be looking for a major world event to bury the jury decision under.



#4634 dogwatch

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:36 PM

Did I miss something? Their is a lot of rudder talk here under the Jury Notices & Decisions. Is there a new protest or decision or are we off topic? I thought we have already been down this road and back. I took a look into here to see if their is any news on Weight-Gate. Now my whole office smells of dead beaten horse. Pee You!

Flogged to death. Buried. But a couple of slow news days here so dug up again and flogged some more. Dead horse flagellation is still more interesting than the YAC, apparently. Which, in all sincerity, seems a pity.

#4635 baygrass

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:52 PM

So your saying IJ on Oracles behalf is waiting for things to get really bad in Syria to announce it's decision. Or are they going to are they going to protect oracle the way baseball is protecting Arod/Yankees until the end of the session. Seems silly to me they need to make a decision now and get new media of the event. The battle between good and evil will appeal to the none sailing crowd. Plus there ability to be just when some many other sports are about protecting themselves.  



#4636 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:53 PM

Speaking of rudder gate, do we have any proof that B1 symetrical and B2 asymetrical are legal ?



#4637 Abraxas3

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:00 PM

The final proof will be posted here within the next couple of days:

http://noticeboard.a...c72-class-rule/



#4638 brian weslake

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:01 PM

Speaking of rudder gate, do we have any proof that B1 symetrical and B2 asymetrical are legal ?

 

B1 has assymetrical rudders now, as shown in photos above.



#4639 K38BOB

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:02 PM

 

 

^

 

The longer the announcement is delayed, the more I think the IJ is viewing this as a very big deal. If it was "rogue elements" and "ridiculous mistake" with a few shore-crew reprimanded, it would have been done and dusted by now.

 

But hey, I'm really just adding to useless word count here right now.

The more sensitive issues around which the Jury is dancing are the active roles of Barclay and Murray in the cover-up. I think the Jury would be very mindful of getting their decisions on Proto Art60 and R69 locked up tight legally, before they address the Barclay-Murray dirty hands...

If they were to toss Murray, I'm sure ETNZ will have no problem nominating Harold Bennett for the role?

 

Shit if it wasn't for Harold starting that second race, AC33 could still be going on in the courts or somewhere in Europe, or the Middle East or somewhere that the US of A isn't a favourite with the locals.

I don't think Murray will get tossed this close to the Match, but he's unlikely to have a role in any future ACs, whether or not ACRM survives beyond AC34. Besides, we need Bennett where he is to keep an eye on the PRO and Murray  :P

The PRO doesn't need any watching. 



#4640 nav

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:09 PM

^ As shown on the appropriate threads ages ago - try to keep up

 

One of the few clean threads ruined



#4641 Sean

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:40 PM

Perhaps a bit naive, but threads of truth as well me thinks:

http://www.sanfranci...l.com/?p=171304

#4642 baygrass

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:47 PM

I guess that writer doesn't watch any professional sports!  In the general public Oracle means software and Lance means cycling or Arod means baseball. Cheating in any sports makes headlines and the headlines keep coming until there is resolution. Than the headlines turn into footnotes. The questions for Oracle are they going to be headlines or footnotes this week.

 

 

Perhaps a bit naive, but threads of truth as well me thinks:

http://www.sanfranci...l.com/?p=171304



#4643 dent

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:55 PM

out of curiosity, how long does it take the MC to measure a boat?

 

does ETNZ/ Oracle give the MC a call and say,  "come by in about an hour to measure and give us our cert"  or do they have to schedule something, and it take MC x hours to do it or is it y days to do it?



#4644 Indio

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:23 PM

Perhaps a bit naive, but threads of truth as well me thinks:

http://www.sanfranci...l.com/?p=171304

I thought for a moment Bitter Peter might have penned that, but then I noticed the use and spelling of "foibles" put outside Bitter Pete's shallow vocabulary repertoire. And then I noticed the frequent use of "alleged" and "scandal", "fawning", "questionable allegation", etc and spinbot popped into mind  :lol:



#4645 Monster Mash

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:25 PM

^^

Usually the last part of the process is towing over to Alameda to get weighed.



#4646 baygrass

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:41 PM

Scuttlebutt @scuttbutt

We predict the @americascup will be in mainstream media today for all the wrong reasons. #OracleCheating

 

is there a press conference set yet?



#4647 patbush

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:05 PM

Crickets......

#4648 Enzedel 92

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:10 PM

Scuttlebutt @scuttbutt

We predict the @americascup will be in mainstream media today for all the wrong reasons. #OracleCheating

 

is there a press conference set yet?

 

Ooo.

 

I dont know.

 

You think there would be a presser immediately?

 

 I would assume a late night written release of the punishment - then maybe a presser in the next few days?

 

Kinda mix it in with the racing like no big deal???

 

Maybe??  haha



#4649 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:18 PM

I am hearing that Jimmy is gone plus 4 shore crew.  Just a rumor, but a good one from someone who should know.



#4650 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:24 PM

OK just in from the AC.com site

 

The IJ Has Ruled that as a Punishment to Fit the Crime

 

GGYC's RedBull Youth AC-45 team shall be Tossed out of Every Race it finishes in Last Place  :o  :o  :o  :o

 

It was the Only Fitting Thing to Do  B)



#4651 Enzedel 92

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:27 PM

I am hearing that Jimmy is gone plus 4 shore crew.  Just a rumor, but a good one from someone who should know.

 

 

Thats a shame for JS if true.  What a waste of a sailor.  You spend years prepping for this match, only to have it pulled away 4 days out.



#4652 Sean

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:27 PM

I am hearing that Jimmy is gone plus 4 shore crew.  Just a rumor, but a good one from someone who should know.


Interesting. No points clipped?
OR b2 supposed to be out today I think, let's see who's driving.

#4653 mosailn

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:31 PM

I am hearing that Jimmy is gone plus 4 shore crew.  Just a rumor, but a good one from someone who should know.


Wow...this is gonna hurt some EGO's..

#4654 Te Kooti

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:38 PM

Must confess I wondered about that bloke as soon as he agreed to participate in those ridiculous waterslide, fighter-aircraft and other irrelevant distractions.

 

However, being complicit in a cheating escapade shows a high level of daftness.

 

But for now it is just a rumour.

 

If true, Larry will be congratulating himself on hiring Ainslie (to keep him out of other syndicates).

 

It will be interesting because, for month after month, Deano and Ben went against each other (on the old "A" and "B" boats).

 

They know each other quite well.



#4655 insider

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:42 PM

Must confess I wondered about that bloke as soon as he agreed to participate in those ridiculous waterslide, fighter-aircraft and other irrelevant distractions.
 
However, being complicit in a cheating escapade shows a high level of daftness.
 
But for now it is just a rumour.
 
If true, Larry will be congratulating himself on hiring Ainslie (to keep him out of other syndicates).
 
It will be interesting because, for month after month, Deano and Ben went against each other (on the old "A" and "B" boats).
 
They know each other quite well.


so do jimmy and dean from their days on the wmrt.

#4656 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:42 PM

It is absolutely just a rumor.

 

If indeed Jimmy is found to have been complicit though and therefore the whole thing rises to far more than 'low-level cheating', there is no way that Oracle should be able to escape serious punishment.  No way in hell.  

 

If JS goes down, it's sailing's version of the Lance Armstrong mess.  Smaller because sailing is smaller, but no less impactful. 



#4657 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:43 PM

I am hearing that Jimmy is gone plus 4 shore crew.  Just a rumor, but a good one from someone who should know.

That would really suck, sure hope it's not true.



#4658 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:45 PM

Same here, but if the IJ says he cheated, he probably cheated and should get banned. 



#4659 ibsailn

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:47 PM

out of curiosity, how long does it take the MC to measure a boat?

 

does ETNZ/ Oracle give the MC a call and say,  "come by in about an hour to measure and give us our cert"  or do they have to schedule something, and it take MC x hours to do it or is it y days to do it?

I havn't looked at the measurement procedure on the AC72 enough to know and of course you don't neccesarily have to measure everything every time you want to change a cert, and they may well have done large portions of this even before their first official cert, but I measured and remeasured many 12m's when working in Newport and times are as follows:

 

Out of water measurement (girths, lengths, rudder & trim tab inspections) usually took 4-6 hours.  This would be redone after any major ballast change, but the system allowed for small changes to be adjusted for based on a range of measurements around the intended flotation (note, the range system was not used back when the 12's were used in the cup, so back then, any ballast change would have required full re-measure).

 

In water measurement of freeboards to estabilish rating waterline usually took 2 hours and required very calm weather.  Often we would have to reschedule several times.

 

Mast measurement (out of boat) usually took about 2 hours and measurement in the water to confirm took about 1 hr.  We would never try to do it all in one day as you have to do the out of water first and by the time you were done and got the boat into the water there would be too much wind.  Mast was first measured out of the boat for accuracy and ease, then checked in place for things like J, Spin pole length and to confirm the Boom above deck height.

 

I never did sail measurement on 12's, but on 6's (similar, just smaller) it took maybe 20 mins per sail.

 

My guess is that hull measurements have already been done and they know where they need to float.  Wing Sail measurements are also probably already done, and awaiting final inspection of details/fairings/etc. to write off.  My guess is they havn't bothered measuring rudders yet as they will wait till they decide on a final arrangment, but they would have been in touch with the MC about all their options.  Biggest thing remaining is presumably finalizing control systems and getting them written off, then getting approval for fairings as there are some limitations (like extending behind media pod), and getting a final weighing on the official scales at final arrangement (I am sure they have had preliminary weighings with the official scales for reference).

 

I would think they could finish their first cert (if they havn't already) in a few hours one morning.



#4660 porthos

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:48 PM

It is absolutely just a rumor.

 

If indeed Jimmy is found to have been complicit though and therefore the whole thing rises to far more than 'low-level cheating', there is no way that Oracle should be able to escape serious punishment.  No way in hell.  

 

If JS goes down, it's sailing's version of the Lance Armstrong mess.  Smaller because sailing is smaller, but no less impactful. 

Is it possible that the jury would ding Jimmy simply because he was the skipper even if he were found not to have participated intentionally in or otherwise been aware of the improper modifications? In effect saying that the buck stops with him and that he is ultimately responsible for what happened on his boat even though he may have only been negligent in not knowing?

 

My question really goes to the legal responsibility of the skipper and is not so much focused on Jimmy in particular (although this is clearly the most recent and relevant potential example).



#4661 Monster Mash

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:51 PM

NO

If JS is booted its because he was involved in either the cheating, attempted coverup or both.



#4662 freddy

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:54 PM

It is absolutely just a rumor.
 
If indeed Jimmy is found to have been complicit though and therefore the whole thing rises to far more than 'low-level cheating', there is no way that Oracle should be able to escape serious punishment.  No way in hell.  
 
If JS goes down, it's sailing's version of the Lance Armstrong mess.  Smaller because sailing is smaller, but no less impactful.

Is it possible that the jury would ding Jimmy simply because he was the skipper even if he were found not to have participated intentionally in or otherwise been aware of the improper modifications? In effect saying that the buck stops with him and that he is ultimately responsible for what happened on his boat even though he may have only been negligent in not knowing?
 
My question really goes to the legal responsibility of the skipper and is not so much focused on Jimmy in particular (although this is clearly the most recent and relevant potential example).
Possibly, but if that were the case, then the chances are Ben would also be flicked as his boat was also out of class.....so if they only flick JS you have to assume that the jury believes he was fully aware, if not actually right at the centre of it....

#4663 jaysper

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:54 PM

NO

If JS is booted its because he was involved in either the cheating, attempted coverup or both.

 

Finding Cleans rumour hard to swallow then, because it seems unlikely that Jimmy would be the only sailor to know about this.

Could be true, but will treat it as BS like all the other rumours until the ruling comes out.



#4664 Xlot

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:00 PM

^^
Usually the last part of the process is towing over to Alameda to get weighed.

.....
In water measurement of freeboards to estabilish rating waterline usually took 2 hours and required very calm weather.  Often we would have to reschedule several times.
....
Very enlightening post, thanks


Am wondering if the measurements in the Alameda "lagoon" are similar to what ibsailn mentions, i.e. determining MWP, rather than weight. Do boats go there sans wing?
Given the narrow displacement variance, I would imagine they would place a combination of weights in various locations to emulate say different daggerboards, bowsprits etc.

#4665 doncod

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:09 PM

  http://www.stuff.co....arcical-regatta

 

 

extract from above link

 

"Fisher is writing the third volume of his historical America's Cup book "An Absorbing Contest" though he concedes this event may provide better copy for his next tome, "The Poisoned Chalice" which chronicles the dirty tricks of the Cup and is going to be subtitled "The Fascination of Sin".

He believes when the jury does rule against Oracle - yesterday was another day, another delay - it will be electric.

Fisher predicted "huge" fines, a loss of points and bans from the cheating scandal that has enveloped the defenders.

The delay with the jury decision hasn't surprised Fisher because of the enormity of their decision.

"They have a lot to write. There are two lawyers in their own right [on the jury], they will want all the i's dotted and t's crossed ... and rightly so."



#4666 dogwatch

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:14 PM

My question really goes to the legal responsibility of the skipper

"Legal" or for the purposes of the IJ? The latter I guess.

Governance of sailing focusses more on the owner than skipper, perhaps as a historical development where gentlemen owned racing yachts but skippers weren't necessarily gentlemen! Normal RRS has several references to "owner" which have been stripped from RRS AC but RRS 69.2.c still refers to "owner". Who "owned" OR's AC45s for this purpose is an interesting question but I don't think the IJ would be very interested in shell companies.

#4667 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:41 PM

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.



#4668 DA-WOODY

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    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:48 PM

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I  expect decision immediately after I post my Video from NZL.

 

fixed  :o  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:



#4669 Sean

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:49 PM

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.


Ah, the perils of passing rumors. Especially if you're a journo I would think.
Thanks for the update.

#4670 Abraxas3

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:50 PM

^^ Sometimes a very effective way to "test" rumor, is to put it out and get the people "in the know" deny it. B)  



#4671 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:50 PM

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.


Ah, the perils of passing rumors. Especially if you're a journo I would think.
Thanks for the update.

+1



#4672 dent

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:55 PM

I havn't looked at the measurement procedure on the AC72 enough to know and of course you don't neccesarily have to measure everything every time you want to change a cert, and they may well have done large portions of this even before their first official cert, but I measured and remeasured many 12m's when working in Newport and times are as follows:

.....

thank you for your explanation... found it extremely informative

 

 

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

 

RB racing over for today (Tuesday) or tomorrow as in racing is over over no more racing?



#4673 easyrider

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:56 PM

My rumor from informed souce is:      4 Jimmy's and a Mr.Clean will get tossed out of the AC.       <_<



#4674 ncs

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:57 PM

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

 

I've often wondered if specific false rumors are deliberately planted in order to find leaks in an organisation.



#4675 maxmini

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:58 PM

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

Clean you have to be more careful .

 

You are playing some of the ET fans like a yo yo :)

 

Now all the parties in the planning stage for tonight have been put on hold.

 

This issue is like life and death in some regions :)



#4676 dogwatch

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:01 PM

I've often wondered if specific false rumors are deliberately planted in order to find leaks in an organisation.

Yes. I've seen it done.

#4677 wraith

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:02 PM

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

Clean you have to be more careful .

 

You are playing some of the ET fans like a yo yo :)

 

Now all the parties in the planning stage for tonight have been put on hold.

 

This issue is like life and death in some regions :)

"It's only a game, not a matter of life and death"

"No, You are right, it's much more important than that"

Bill Shankly, Liverpool FC, a long time ago.



#4678 jaysper

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:04 PM

Media strategy = Choose a good day to bury bad news.

 

Oracle will be looking for a major world event to bury the jury decision under.

 

Larry has been on the phone to Obama. The intention is to fire the first missiles in 10..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1..BLASTOFF!



#4679 Enzedel 92

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:04 PM

Which is worse?

 

Losing JS permanently or getting docked points (maybe two)?

 

Probably losing JS.

 

Either was you would expect the decision to have some teeth.



#4680 Monster Mash

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:05 PM

^^
Usually the last part of the process is towing over to Alameda to get weighed.

>>.....
In water measurement of freeboards to estabilish rating waterline usually took 2 hours and required very calm weather.  Often we would have to reschedule several times.
....
Very enlightening post, thanks


Am wondering if the measurements in the Alameda "lagoon" are similar to what ibsailn mentions, i.e. determining MWP, rather than weight. Do boats go there sans wing?
Given the narrow displacement variance, I would imagine they would place a combination of weights in various locations to emulate say different daggerboards, bowsprits etc.

 

Not in the lagoon.

Weighing has been done at Bay Ship, 1/2 way down the Estuary.



#4681 jaysper

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:08 PM

My rumor from informed souce is:      4 Jimmy's and a Mr.Clean will get tossed out of the AC.       <_<

 

My rumour from an informed source is that Clean's reliable source is in Area 51, just like his frickin video



#4682 Te Kooti

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:16 PM

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

 

Jesus!   This is why we should ignore them.



#4683 Sean

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:18 PM

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'.  vamos a ver.  I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

 
Jesus!   This is why we should ignore them.

I normally would, but thought (foolishly) coming from Clean it might have a better shot.

#4684 ncs

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:19 PM

OR starts at -2 pts for AC34. More to follow.



#4685 Enzedel 92

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:23 PM

Stupid penalty.

 

First off the ACWS is NOT the AC!!!!!!  So why the IJ is mixing the two is beyond me.

 

Secondly, If teams members were found guilty of cheating, how are they not banned from sailing for at least a year???

 

What about the finnacial losses to the other competitors suffered since they didnt get to beat their chests as the ACWS champs?

 

Flame away!!!



#4686 Monster Mash

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:26 PM

^

Did  you miss the "More to follow" ?

 

OR starts at -2 pts for AC34. More to follow.



#4687 jaysper

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:28 PM

^

Did  you miss the "More to follow" ?

 

 

Cccccaaaan't rrrrraaant aaaand rrrreeeeaaad aaaat the saaaame tiiiime! :rolleyes:



#4688 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:29 PM

I am not an OR fan but I disaprove any penalty for the match, ACWS is not the AC.

They may have very good reasons though.



#4689 jaysper

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:33 PM

I am not an OR fan but I disaprove any penalty for the match, ACWS is not the AC.

They may have very good reasons though.

 

Clearly they have no proof that OR cheated in the AC because it hasn't started, but (if they have docked points), then the rationale will probably be along the lines that if they restrict punishment to the ACWS, then there is little dis-incentive to do it again.

 

If its any consolation, these 2 points will make no difference to the outcome.

Losing one or more starting sailors would affect them much worse.



#4690 Sean

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:33 PM

I am not an OR fan but I disaprove any penalty for the match, ACWS is not the AC.
They may have very good reasons though.


I'm with you on that.
Assuming this is not rumor, it tells me the "more to follow" bit could be rough.

#4691 Rennmaus

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:35 PM

Stupid penalty.

 

First off the ACWS is NOT the AC!!!!!!  So why the IJ is mixing the two is beyond me.

 

Secondly, If teams members were found guilty of cheating, how are they not banned from sailing for at least a year???

 

What about the finnacial losses to the other competitors suffered since they didnt get to beat their chests as the ACWS champs?

 

Flame away!!!

 

Patience, patience...

 



#4692 Daniel Gut

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:37 PM

This is in my opinion, all about people that were/are involved in both events, sailing/working for one team.



#4693 Abraxas3

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:38 PM

I am not an OR fan but I disaprove any penalty for the match, ACWS is not the AC.
They may have very good reasons though.


You could compare this to doping, and if you get caught cheating in Tour de France you will not get to compete in the World Championship.
I guess we get a better understanding once we get the full ruling.

#4694 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:38 PM

Official info...

 

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN116.pdf



#4695 Ex-yachtie

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:39 PM

OR starts at -2 pts for AC34. More to follow.


Given that the media are talking about the decision being released in about an hour and a half, I'd say this is intended to wind you all up.

It appears to have worked.

#4696 Enzedel 92

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:40 PM

Shit Dirk is gone....



#4697 Rennmaus

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:41 PM

"Sailor X"? WTF?



#4698 pjh

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:42 PM

Langford and De Ridder are in trouble.



#4699 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:43 PM

Dirk de Ridder is excluded from further participation in any role in the 34th America’s Cup.

 

^^

 

Bad news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



#4700 jaysper

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:43 PM

Has this come out yet?

JN116 says the following people knew of the addition of lead to the Kingpost

 

Following team members involved:

 

* Dirk De-Ridder

* Sailor "X"

* Bruce Ruthenberg

* Andrew Walker

* Kyle Langford

* Matthew Mitchell






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