528 replies to this topic

[amperrin]

K38BOB you are correct about second tracks however, with the diagonal battens and square top mains you could hoist a trysail up another track but would still have to send someone up the mast to get the rest of the main down by disconnecting the full length batten from the car. Obviously if you didn't you would have two sails up which would negate the effect of a trysail!

The problems with having kevlar, carbon mainsails reefed to the same size as a trysail is that the fabric doesn't have any give and therefore can't take the shock load of inconsistent wind (which is what you have a lot of in storm conditions). Also the mainsail is low down with no gap between the boom and the fabric and large waves will fill the reefed mainsail rememeber a cubic meter of water = 1 ton this effects the vessels stability.

The V70 rule requires trysails but they also had square top mains... Obviously with crew you have more people to deal with getting the sail down but I still wouldn't want to have to deal with it.

Full battens and square top low stretch sails have been on multihulls for some time (before popularized by IACC boats etc). Pull a pin/shackle on the head and lay down the angled batten. Lash it securely. Better of course to remove it.

Good job on the courses!

I don't want to sound sarcastic that is not my intent....

It sounds so easy doesn't it and in theory it is but in practice on a 60 footer on your own.... most likely impossible especially as it is always 2am and dark out :-)

Thank you for the kudos on the courses! It is fun and we will continue to run them if there is a need and people are into learning

[Estar]

P.S. I am 99% sure the current IMOCA rules require a storm jib

I have looked into in. The deal in the vendee is that there is a 10 total sail limit. There is no trisail, and no required minimum mainsail reef depth. And there is no required ORC size storm jib. But there is a required (within the 10 sails) 20sqm "tourmentin" - which is apparently 42% the size (eg 58% smaller than) of the max ORC storm jib sizing.

Seems the feeling is that the skippers will do the right thing about mainsail reefs on their own without requirement, but given the 10 sail total limit (for cost reduction) they would choose to carry more often useful weapons than a storm jib if not required to.

[Christian]

I've seen a 2nd track for a trysail next to main track

On an IMOCA 60?

No.

Yeah I wouldn't think so. second tracks (for a trysail) are on a number of boats - obviously makes the switch to the try much easier, especially on boats with main cars as the stack can get pretty tall. There are also main track systems with Y's (like on railroad tracks) where you can set the try on a short seperate track that 'Y'es" into the mast track while the main sits in another short track after having been lowered.

[Estar]

Yeah I wouldn't think so. second tracks (for a trysail) are on a number of boats - obviously makes the switch to the try much easier, especially on boats with main cars as the stack can get pretty tall. There are also main track systems with Y's (like on railroad tracks) where you can set the try on a short seperate track that 'Y'es" into the mast track while the main sits in another short track after having been lowered.

There are also systems to set the trysail on a high modulus stay separate from the mast.

But in strong winds, these boats sail quite well on a small jib alone, even 'upwind', so the trysail is not really 'necessary' except as a 'back-up' to the mainsail.

The last time we used our trysail, was in the southern ocean on the way to tasmania when one of our harken batten cars blew up. It was blowing 30, and we dropped the main and set the trysail to keep our speed up and it was a couple days before the weather was good enough before I could do the work to replace the car - a massive job because I had to drop all the cars below it out of the track.

[Presuming Ed]

[

onEdition

[Christian]

[

onEdition

PE - what is your point with this pic? Looks to me to be just the standard heavily reefed main on Cheminées Poujoulat - I think that pic is from the Velux race taken shortly after the start in the Bay of Biscay - can be a nasty piece of water - have been stuck there on a 100 foot Swan in like conditions just trying to stay off the beach

[solosailor]

As I recall every or nearly all other IMOCA 60s went to shore for shelter it was so bad. That pic was no standard gale.

[Presuming Ed]

PE - what is your point with this pic?

To show no trysail even in a really shitty situation.

[pogen]

PE - what is your point with this pic?

To show no trysail even in a really shitty situation.

Great pic, do you have it in high-res for a desktop background?

[Christian]

PE - what is your point with this pic?

To show no trysail even in a really shitty situation.

Got it. Setting the storm jib in those conditions is obviously no fun - but it would have given him a bit more point though it could have been too much sail for the situation.

[ctutmark]

PE - what is your point with this pic?

To show no trysail even in a really shitty situation.

Great pic, do you have it in high-res for a desktop background?

Video taken close to the same time:
Looks like he had the storm jib up and it was taken down, either by him or mother nature.

[Presuming Ed]

Got it. Setting the storm jib in those conditions is obviously no fun - but it would have given him a bit more point though it could have been too much sail for the situation.

Doubt very much you can make any significant progress to windward in those sorts of conditions. Wrong end of the lift drag ratios, with all that mast sticking up there.

[Christian]

Got it. Setting the storm jib in those conditions is obviously no fun - but it would have given him a bit more point though it could have been too much sail for the situation.

Doubt very much you can make any significant progress to windward in those sorts of conditions. Wrong end of the lift drag ratios, with all that mast sticking up there.

Sure isn't going to be pointing well and making a lot of progress. With the jib up it is just a better balance meaning that you don't have to use nearly as much rudder which obviously doesn't help your progress

[tolachi]

The requirements are up:

http://www.norcalorc.org/node/32

[casc27]

Tolachi, Thanks for the update.

I noticed on the NCORC site that the Safety at Sea seminar is listed as February 24, 2014. Is this date correct? Seems like a long ways off to be advertising a seminar.

[BobJ]

No, that's a typo - it's next month. If you click the Sign-Up link it says 2013.

I have the flyer around here somewhere . . . I'll post it if I can find it.


There will be a special section on local conditions (as expected). Should be pretty good.

[casc27]

BobJ, thanks. I suppose I could have thought to click the link and confirm. In my defense, it's early and I became very used to NOT getting up at 5 a.m. over the past couple of weeks.) Unfortunately I'll be out of town that weekend.

[Ahi Tuna]

Yes, the revised set of recommended requirements is up. http://www.norcalorc.org/node/32

Thanks to the Moore 24 guys for gently poking us and helping us get this finished, at least for now.

Our goal is that this list remain as is for the 2013 season so you don't have to chase a moving target.

During our comment phase we got literally hundreds of comments and suggestions. We removed the high ("use ISAF OSR's") and the lows ("any rules are an attack on my constitutional freedoms") and were left with over 120 comments which we compiled and went through one by one as a group. Many of those suggestions resulted in minor changes. We realized during the process that the group we are trying to serve is so diverse that no single list would ever please everybody.

I must point out, as many have pointed out to me, that the NCORC Safety Committee can only recommend. Just like ISAF and US Sailing we have no authority to dictate requirements. We think this is a good basic list of minimums, but in the end it is up to each Organizing Authority to adopt the list, modify the list, or continue to use their own.

I believe OYRA and SSS plan to adopt the list without changes. I don't have information on what the other OA's plan to do.

I suggest you carefully review the documents (notice of race, sailing instructions, etc) from each race you plan to enter. I don't know what they will look like but it is a safe bet there will be changes from last year.

Thank you to everyone who joined the discussion here and elsewhere, you were an important part of the process.

Andy

[Ahi Tuna]

BobJ, thanks. I suppose I could have thought to click the link and confirm. In my defense, it's early and I became very used to NOT getting up at 5 a.m. over the past couple of weeks.) Unfortunately I'll be out of town that weekend.

One of the reasons NCORC is not recommending SAS be mandatory prior to 2014 is to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to attend the training. The first seminar will be Sunday 2/24/13 but there will likely be others. There have been a few a year all along but many are not too well publicized outside of the host organization (EYC for Coastal Cup, PCYC for Pac Cup etc). One of the goals of NCORC is to change that and to provide info for all training opportunities, not just the ones it hosts.

[BobJ]

In case it isn't clear - Look at the Safety-At-Sea tab on the top of your page and then the page it takes you to. It says 2/24/14, not 2/24/13.

Typos.

[casc27]

Ahi (Andy), thanks for the work getting the recs completed. Personally, I like that the fuel/motoring requirements have been attenuated a bit (no need for so much gas on board) and the reduction in anchor rode which means many of us will not need to replace our existing 150 foot versions.

And it's obvious that NORC has given us a year to get the SAS training. I just thought it would be nice to get it out of the way earlier. But 4 days in Yosemite in Winter will have to take precedence.

(BobJ, not to worry about the typo. I think it's clear as soon as someone clicks through to sign up. I was just not altogether "there" this morning. And when do I get a chance for an up close and personal inspection of that dialed in machine you sail so well??)

[BobJ]

You're kind but you should know that due to family issues I only attempted two races in 2012. In one I sailed the wrong course and in the other I chose the wrong headsail and got trounced on the first beat.

I'm hoping 2013 is more like 2011!

[K38BOB]

BobJ, thanks. I suppose I could have thought to click the link and confirm. In my defense, it's early and I became very used to NOT getting up at 5 a.m. over the past couple of weeks.) Unfortunately I'll be out of town that weekend.

One of the reasons NCORC Safety Committee is not recommending SAS be mandatory prior to 2014 is to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to attend the training. The first seminar will be Sunday 2/24/13 but there will likely be others. There have been a few a year all along but many are not too well publicized outside of the host organization (EYC for Coastal Cup, PCYC for Pac Cup etc). One of the goals of NCORC Safety Committee is to change that and to provide info for all training opportunities, not just the ones it hosts.

FIXED IT ?

Thanks to you and everyone for the efforts and the clarifications. I believe that its the Safety Committee proposal to NCORC and the constituent clubs (and their customers). Isn't that correct?
Happy New Year!

[Ahi Tuna]

BobJ, thanks. I suppose I could have thought to click the link and confirm. In my defense, it's early and I became very used to NOT getting up at 5 a.m. over the past couple of weeks.) Unfortunately I'll be out of town that weekend.

One of the reasons NCORC Safety Committee is not recommending SAS be mandatory prior to 2014 is to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to attend the training. The first seminar will be Sunday 2/24/13 but there will likely be others. There have been a few a year all along but many are not too well publicized outside of the host organization (EYC for Coastal Cup, PCYC for Pac Cup etc). One of the goals of NCORC Safety Committee is to change that and to provide info for all training opportunities, not just the ones it hosts.

FIXED IT ?

Thanks to you and everyone for the efforts and the clarifications. I believe that its the Safety Committee proposal to NCORC and the constituent clubs (and their customers). Isn't that correct?
Happy New Year!

No, changed the meaning, and I am not sure why you felt the need. The safety committee can't take credit for the 2014 date or the idea of publicizing non NCORC seminars, these were discussed at general meetings.

Everything the people at NCORC are doing is to make recommendations to Organizing Authorities that choose to be part of NCORC with the goal of improving ocean racing safety.

Happy to discuss semantics next Monday.

[amperrin]

SFYC is again running two ISAF Sea Survival courses which complies with the requirements. So if you miss the one day events consider our two day ones in March. 16-17th and 23-24th March. We are also running VHF training and Radar training classes. See http://www.sfyc.org/...id=281303&vnf=1 and scroll to bottom of page.

thank you for bearing with our advertising!

[tolachi]

With regards to an EPIRB or PLB, what does "this device must be self locating" mean?

Made a checklist tonight of things left to do to be NCORC compliant and it is far shorter than I expected.

[Presuming Ed]

Assume it means a GPS EPIRB/PLB. Transmits its own position, rather then rely on triangulation of the signal. Much greater accuracy.

[pogen]

Made a checklist tonight of things left to do to be NCORC compliant and it is far shorter than I expected.

Yes, that is what we have been saying all along.

[tolachi]

GPS. Thx, that would seem to fit the definition.

Made a checklist tonight of things left to do to be NCORC compliant and it is far shorter than I expected.

Yes, that is what we have been saying all along.

lol. In fairness I have been doing a lot of boat work. Not that I don't appreciate how much simpler and more relevant NCORC is than the old OYRA rules.