27 replies to this topic

[Kent H]

The answer may surprise you.

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•  main.jpg   68.99K   38 downloads

[Ishmael]

According to Yachtworld, the designer was Olin Sparkman.

http://www.yachtworl...g_id=76883&url=

[Jake B]

Sparkman & Stevens
Thats Olin Stevens

[floating dutchman]

Mr Tartan?


What did I win What did I win?

[jhiller]

S&S designed Tartan's boats until Tim Jackett took over in the early 80's. I think he actually did much of the work before that but if he's lurking here he can tell us. I think one of the first Tartans was designed by someone other that S&S maybe Hood . Some of the early Tartan literature included an article from the Cleveland Plain Dealer with lots of photos of Olin Stephens and Charlie Britton when they launched the Tartan 27. The article talks about the soon to e hatched Tartan 34. It's a lovely old boat that sails well. It did separate the keel from the rudder and is big enough for a nice trip to Bahamas. Too much balsa in them for my taste but many have seen lots of sea miles without falling apart...
my .02

[Kent H]

I posted this to the front page as well...that was a mistake.

Here is that post, the answer and the link.

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=141083

Of course it is a collaborative effort and without having been there it is hard to assign credit.

But ....the answer surprised me.

[SemiSalt]

Stephens is quoted in various places that he did very little drawing board work after the 1930s. When you get a boat from a firm like S&S, it's a collaboration.

Heck, even BP collaborates on some things at some times.

[Bob Perry]

When you are busy you need help in the office. I have had many helpers over the years. S&S had many, many more than I did. It's fun to look at that sail plan. But we still don't know who drew the hull lines. Just because Frers drew the sail plan that does not mean he drew the lines. I think that bootstripe is wonky looking. The top edge droops too much too far aft. If I were to hazzard a guess I'd say the bootstripe was on the hull lines. And given the skill of Frer's eye I'd go on to say that I think he did not come up with that bootstripe. I bet he traced it off the hull lines. I think he would have drawn a better bootstripe if he had a clean sheet of paper.

But I'm probably wrong.

[kdh]

Bob,

My boat was floated before it was painted, I assume to locate the bootstripe on the hull. Is that usual?

Hopefully I'll be able to get my turntable up to the house and set up this weekend. Ann has a lot of chores for me in the yard. Now I have to go help her get the aerator on the tractor.

[Bob Perry]

kdh:
Good, get that turntable set up. If it has been a while since you listened to vinyl I think you will be amazed. Cartridges can get stiff with age as the rubber grommet hardens up. There are some very good reasonably priced cartridges available. I can assist you if you think a replacement is warranted. ( When I say "cartridges" imagine me saying it in that Homer Simpson voice, "bacon")

I just got off ARCHIV music placing a nice fat order of new classical recordings. Yum! ARCHIV is first rate, huge selection, great website and fast delivery. I can't wait.

No, No, No!
Imagine me telling a builder, "Well, just launch it and we'll see where it floats." Right.
I'm certain that it is done and it's not unusual for a builder to float a new boat in his "tank" to check flotation (several Taiwan yards had big tanks) but most builders rely on the designer to get it right.
There are few more satisfying moments than when a designer sees a new boat launched and float right where he predicted. It has taken me 40 years to perfect my smug "I knew exactly where it would float" look.

Raining hard here. Dogs are sleeping. But I don't have to worry about a stinking Taiphoon like you East coast guys.
Stay safe.

[jhiller]

I just looked at the layout and noticed that the engine is off-set. Never noticed that before

[jhiller]

http://documents.clu...9vOpWuSAb9OoVM=

[kdh]

There is some talk of a "perfect storm" situation of the Sandy low being amplified by other low pressure systems to the point that the severity would be comparable to the hurricane of '38. That's not what happened then, but it was severe. We have a couple hundred acres behind us and practically every tree was blown down in '38.

The most likely scenario is much more benign.

[Kent H]

Well ummm.... as usually I think Bob is right. I could see that in the 1967 interior plan the initials did not appear to be GF jr. But I just thought that prior to computers that the same guy who drew the hull and foils would definitely do the rig as well. There is some hand written math in that stuff!

There are several stories that mention others but once again there was an optional yawl rig and then the change to a larger diesel and other modifications. These plans are on the web and they were not drawn by GF jr

I am going to leave this one alone. Maybe a Tartan owner has a set of hull plans for the 34 from 1967 that have the initials listed.

Boomer depp was kind enough to post what info he had. There is a set of hull lines from 1967. However the initials are hard to read. They might be DWG....then again what I am looking at may not even be the initials of who drew the plans. I checked the S&S alumni list and there should not have been anyone with the first intial D working on this project in 1967.

Offset engine - I didn't know that either. I think the reason that neither of us noticed is that there is very little shaft that exits the hull on the stub of the keel. The shaft is only seen for a few inches on either end.

Olin Sparkman - That is definitely a good way to decide on a broker. Can you do your listings correctly.

[roverhi]

Engines are usually angled to counter torque effect of prop. S&S were big on centering weights so another possible reason is engine is in middle of boat and had to design a reasonable floor plan with engine amidships.

DWG, now isn't that an abbreviation of 'Drawing'. S&S were the premier design shop in '50s, '60s and 70's. Like any large design firm, they hired draftsmen, NA's, etc and probably had the pick of available talent. Trying to determine who drew the lines from a sail plan dwg is a fools journey as it could be someone who actually designed or just someone good with a pencil who was asked to put down on paper dimensions worked out by an engineer. To find the person who actually designed the boat, you'd have to find someone who worked at S&S in the '60s to tell you. It very well could have been a collaboration of a number of people.

[jhiller]

Off-center center engines are rare birds. Purchasers eschew them because they seem odd and designers and builders want to sell boats and an off center iron horse is an impediment

[Bob Perry]

I think Rover is correct. Those designs were group efforts. Some were great boats and some were ordinary boats. I don't worship at the S&S altar. It was a bit of a factory.
"DWG" is almost certainly "drawing", what an awful set of initials for a draftsman to have. "Who's on first?"
But I think it's valid and fun to try and trace the components of the design down to the specific design team involved. It all started with the hull lines so I'm very interested in who drew the specific lines to each design.

Having worked in other design offices I can tell you for a fact that it's a bit disurbing after working your ass off to produce a beautiful drawing to have a client say to your boss, "What beautiful drawings you do." And then have the boss say, "Thank you." I also know that some of the designers who worked at S&S were a wee bit bitter when they left. But hell, given the volume of work that S&S put out I can't see it happening any other way. And if for a moment you don't think I admire the work of S&S just take a look at this. Doesn't get much better than that.

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•  Bolero.jpg   94.71K   80 downloads

[Kent H]

Well fools journey it may be but interesting to me and perhaps to the owners of the boat. Also it is a short journey of not much time and no investment.

There is a set of hull lines and after looking at them they are not in German Frers jr's handwriting. His writing is very distinct from this time period. For instance several letters and especially numbers will go below the line that they are written on that would be odd for someone from the U.S. So it looks like I was wrong. Not the first time and I doubt the last.

[Bob Perry]

Kent:
Don't be fooled. Frers was a young man at the time and he may have been playing with various letterring styles. We all did that.

[Jose Carumba]

Clip <Having worked in other design offices I can tell you for a fact that it's a bit disurbing after working your ass off to produce a beautiful drawing to have a client say to your boss, "What beautiful drawings you do." And then have the boss say, "Thank you.">

Amen to that.

[kdh]

...I admire the work of S&S just take a look at this. Doesn't get much better than that.

So much of that boat is under water. But look at what's above water. Gorgeous. It's probably ridiculous to ask what we'd do with that design given what we know now. I'd like to know I could back a modern version into my slip.

How about changing nothing except replacing the rudder with a spade hung as far aft as reasonable?

[Bob Perry]

kdh:L
I would not change a thing on that design. I'd rather change myself.

[Ishmael]

A must read is "Addicted to Sail", by Norris D. Hoyt. He sailed on Bolero, along with all the legends of the time, and has many stories. As a bonus, he's an excellent writer.

[rattus32]

Bob, you undoubtedly have a much deeper appreciation than most of us, besides aesthetics, of this boat. What do you see in the hull lines that make you not want to change a thing?

[Jake B]

The Tartan 34 was a popular boat in Mass bay in the 70's.I sailed on a couple of them.The cockpit was horrible.The most uncomfortable cockpit of any boat Ive ever sailed on.One of my favorite boats Was Jezabel,She was an S&S 36,wood, bright finished,beautiful, and fast. I did a Jeffries Ledge race on her around 1976-77.

[kdh]

kdh:L
I would not change a thing on that design. I'd rather change myself.

I met the owners, Ed Kane and his wife Marty, at a local hunt club gathering. I asked them about the boat, the transom was still bright then. They seem to be having a lot of fun owning her and they've treated her very well from what I know.

[Bob Perry]

32:
I think what I likeabout this design are the overal proportions,i.e. low freeboard, small deck structures, sweeping sheer and shapely ends plus it's hard to argue with the paint and varnish job. As for the underbody I like the organic flow to the lines. It may not be the shape of speed today but it sure looks right and sweet to my eye.

[jameswilson29]

Beautiful boat! Bolero was based on Olin Stephen's own family boat Dorade, designed by him when he was only 20 years old, which won the 1931 Transatlantic Race and the Fastnet Race the following year. Even with all that wetted surface, she must have been fast for her day. With that deep keel and narrow beam, she must have had tremendous stability for ocean racing.

I like that Tartan 34, too. Amazing bargain at $18K.