741 replies to this topic

[jackdaw]

Sure sure, safer at sea than in port, this can be true in some instances, but the fact remains that this was absolutely not the case.

Exactly. Sometimes true for the boat. NEVER for the crew.

[Winever]

Wow.

Makes me wonder if they lowered the upper spars or they broke off? Looks more like lowered. Possibly be salvaged?

Win ever.

[Soley]

It's terrible to sit back after the fact from behind our desks and criticize an awful tragedy, but I just can't see what the logic was here. Sure sure, safer at sea than in port, this can be true in some instances, but the fact remains that this was absolutely not the case. The worst that could have happened whilst the boat was in port was the the boat was damaged or wrecked, but no lives were lost. Heading out to sea on a certain rendezvous with a giant weather system was just beyond foolish.

+1

Sometimes these guys forget that life is more important than a boat And it is JUST a boat..

[Dixie]

It's terrible to sit back after the fact from behind our desks and criticize an awful tragedy, but I just can't see what the logic was here. Sure sure, safer at sea than in port, this can be true in some instances, but the fact remains that this was absolutely not the case. The worst that could have happened whilst the boat was in port was the the boat was damaged or wrecked, but no lives were lost. Heading out to sea on a certain rendezvous with a giant weather system was just beyond foolish.

+1

Sometimes these guys forget that life is more important than a boat And it is JUST a boat..

I just read through the Facebook posts on their page, which I expect may shortly come down. They consistently defend their position and also the inability of the boat to sail North or East as that type of rig cannot sail into the wind, in fact 60 degrees is the closest she can sail to the wind. Given that the boat has survived other storms at sea, and the captain is trusted to keep boat and lives safe they felt it safest to go east and ride it out off shore.

It's sickening to read the posts on 10/26 from pretty much everyone on shore begging them to find a safe harbor. It was these posts that seemed to push the FB Admin of the Bounty site to defend with numerous posts the decision, for the safety of the boat, to go offshore. I am so sorry for the families who had to watch, play by play, in horror as the boat sailed into what was ultimately her undoing, and putting in peril everyone on board.

[Doc Häagen-Dazs]

It's terrible to sit back after the fact from behind our desks and criticize an awful tragedy, but I just can't see what the logic was here. Sure sure, safer at sea than in port, this can be true in some instances, but the fact remains that this was absolutely not the case. The worst that could have happened whilst the boat was in port was the the boat was damaged or wrecked, but no lives were lost. Heading out to sea on a certain rendezvous with a giant weather system was just beyond foolish.

Regret the loss of life of course.

But personally, I think it's bordering on reckless & reprehensible irresponsibility to send these historical replicas to sea. They should be in museums. They're not even replicas at all, as a matter of fact, because they have engines in them! WTF is the point of even untying their docklines?

[Remodel]

Wow.

Makes me wonder if they lowered the upper spars or they broke off? Looks more like lowered. Possibly be salvaged?

Win ever.

Looks to me like they rolled by the board, and were not struck down on deck by the crew. If you look at the main mast, you can see topmast and topgallant mast backstays hanging limp from the top. It also looks like the main topmast itself is hanging there.

Sad.

[wingssail]

We saw the Bounty in 2008, heading up the coast from San Francisco in some pretty uncomfortable weather:
Here's some video of her sailing a few miles offshore, north of Bodega Bay, pounding in the swells. I had stopped at "Death Rock" to watch as she was sailing north to Victoria B.C. to participate in a Tall Ships event: http://sailvalis.com...ilez/Bounty.mpg

This is NOT video of the Bounty sailing. It is a video of the Bounty motoring. I can't help but thinking that this is part of the problem. Yes, square riggers are not very weatherly, but when your approach to going upwind is to motor, and your pumps, even with 16 able bodied hands are aboard, can only be run when the gen-sets (two of them) are both running, then there is a mind set at work that is different than when the original ships of this type were circling the world, when sailing ships had no motors and pumps were manned by hand. And I think that when those original ships were sailing they were probably commanded by men who had a better respect for hurricanes. The belief that this ship was safer at sea than somewhere up a river in the NE and that they could skirt around the largest hurricane in a hundred years by going onto the outer banks, seems to me to indicate foolhardyness instead of good seamanship.

And to anyone who wonders why they were out there, you have only to look at the HMS Bounty's website. There was a schedule to be met: a show in St Pete on November 10. Going to sea in bad weather to meet a schedule, and sailing (probably motoring) directly towards the danger... well we see the results.

It is tragic to have lost the lives and the ship; I am saddened by it, but surely a Coast Guard inquiry will establish the responsibility, and we know where that will lie.

[R Booth]

So who/what is/was the person with the final say, as to whether she should go or not go out to sea? Was it the captain? Or 'Administration' that could have/should have put their foot down and pull the plug on this voyage before it started?......

[rigguy]

Schedules have sunk more boats than storms.

[dingyNV]

An inexcusable and avoidable tragedy.

[mcsailor0303]

Very sorry for the lost crew.

Shame.

[Dixie]

This story is just gut wrenching. A post from a crew member (it's public) is evocative: "I have to figure out how to get home. I've adopted my gumby suit and will take it with me.

And I want to thank the people who helped train me to handle this sort of situation- Cal Maritime for BST and PMI for the AB course. It all helped.

It's a shame that the BOUNTY office hasn't done anything for us- we've gotten help from the USCG and the Red Cross instead."

[mad]

So who/what is/was the person with the final say, as to whether she should go or not go out to sea? Was it the captain? Or 'Administration' that could have/should have put their foot down and pull the plug on this voyage before it started?......

In my view the responsility lies with the skipper, the buck stops with him. He can reasonbly refuse to go to sea regardless of the 'owners' instructions as a matter of seamanship, but there is little they can do if he puts to sea at short notice. Apart from try and impound the boat or pray for a mutiny.

[mad]

This story is just gut wrenching. A post from a crew member (it's public) is evocative: "I have to figure out how to get home. I've adopted my gumby suit and will take it with me.

And I want to thank the people who helped train me to handle this sort of situation- Cal Maritime for BST and PMI for the AB course. It all helped.

It's a shame that the BOUNTY office hasn't done anything for us- we've gotten help from the USCG and the Red Cross instead."

That's one of the lowest things I've heard in years. It is/was US flagged?
Duty of care surely from the owners?

[R Booth]

So who/what is/was the person with the final say, as to whether she should go or not go out to sea? Was it the captain? Or 'Administration' that could have/should have put their foot down and pull the plug on this voyage before it started?......

In my view the responsility lies with the skipper, the buck stops with him. He can reasonbly refuse to go to sea regardless of the 'owners' instructions as a matter of seamanship, but there is little they can do if he puts to sea at short notice. Apart from try and impound the boat or prey for a mutiny.

I'm pretty sure our Coast Guard may have been able to halt their departure, using the 'Manifestly Unsafe Journey' statute.....

[gusmus]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

[R Booth]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

I'd agree with all of your blather above----only IF it was his vessel, and he was going solo......

[walterbshaffer]

I just read through the Facebook posts on their page, which I expect may shortly come down. They consistently defend their position and also the inability of the boat to sail North or East as that type of rig cannot sail into the wind, in fact 60 degrees is the closest she can sail to the wind. Given that the boat has survived other storms at sea, and the captain is trusted to keep boat and lives safe they felt it safest to go east and ride it out off shore.

It's sickening to read the posts on 10/26 from pretty much everyone on shore begging them to find a safe harbor. It was these posts that seemed to push the FB Admin of the Bounty site to defend with numerous posts the decision, for the safety of the boat, to go offshore. I am so sorry for the families who had to watch, play by play, in horror as the boat sailed into what was ultimately her undoing, and putting in peril everyone on board.

Unreal.

Was there any indication who made that decision, why they were out to sea in the first place and why it was deemed safer to go offshore than seek shelter?

[gusmus]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

I'd agree with all of your blather above----only IF it was his vessel, and he was going solo......

I agree with you to a certain extent, but, it was a crewed vessel and I don't think for a minute that the decision to sail was solely his unless he was the real Captain Bligh.

[walterbshaffer]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

Which is why I thought there had to be more to the story than meets the eye, BUT there is no way someone could decide that it's safer to go out into a hurricane than seek shelter in some safe harbor or sheltered backwater. Just doesn't make sense.

[mad]

So who/what is/was the person with the final say, as to whether she should go or not go out to sea? Was it the captain? Or 'Administration' that could have/should have put their foot down and pull the plug on this voyage before it started?......

In my view the responsility lies with the skipper, the buck stops with him. He can reasonbly refuse to go to sea regardless of the 'owners' instructions as a matter of seamanship, but there is little they can do if he puts to sea at short notice. Apart from try and impound the boat or prey for a mutiny.

I'm pretty sure our Coast Guard may have been able to halt their departure, using the 'Manifestly Unsafe Journey' statute.....

Thanks Rick,

Doh! Of course, the USCG could have stopped them in heart beat...if.

Would they have to file passage plan before leaving port with some authority? Especially as they were carrying paying guests.

Not pushing for more 'nanny state' crap, just wondering.

[peculier]

Any confirmation that the woman who died was actually a direct descendant of Fletcher Christian? Wow.

[mad]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

and which lofty high place are you preaching this from?

Skipper? Naval architect or builder involved the build? Owner? Or just a hack?

[R Booth]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

and which lofty high place are you preaching this from?

Skipper? Naval architect or builder involved the build? Owner? Or just a hack?

Ya gotta remember, it's cocktail hour in Valencia right now.....

[mad]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

and which lofty high place are you preaching this from?

Skipper? Naval architect or builder involved the build? Owner? Or just a hack?

Ya gotta remember, it's cocktail hour in Valencia right now.....

Let me freshen my glass.... Rum before dinner, anything for you Mr Booth?

[R Booth]

Si, some huevos rancheros and two Bohemias, por favor?.....

[gusmus]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

and which lofty high place are you preaching this from?

Skipper? Naval architect or builder involved the build? Owner? Or just a hack?

Skipper of many years old mate and I've made quite a few "fuck ups" in my time as well which I admit to and thank Lady Luck for allowing me to pass "GO" or passing me a "Get out of Jail" card. Your post also makes me ask the question: Who the fuck are you? And what have you done apart from barriage us with almost almost 10,000 posts of absolute drivel and criticism of others of which and whom you know nothing? By the way, cocktail hour or not, I had a very serious bypass operation in July and I no longer drink (Docs orders) so stuff that up your ass and smoke it.

[mad]

Si, some huevos rancheros and two Bohemias, por favor?.....

I feel cocktail hour may run late tonight,

Edit.

Looks like I was right

[mad]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

and which lofty high place are you preaching this from?

Skipper? Naval architect or builder involved the build? Owner? Or just a hack?

Skipper of many years old mate and I've made quite a few "fuck ups" in my time as well which I admit to and thank Lady Luck. Your post also makes me ask the question: Who the fuck are you? And what have you done apart from barriage us with almost almost 10,000 posts of absolute drivel and criticism of others of which and whom you know nothing?

did that include taking paying guests out into the biggest storm in years? Are you defending his actions?

[R Booth]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

and which lofty high place are you preaching this from?

Skipper? Naval architect or builder involved the build? Owner? Or just a hack?

Skipper of many years old mate and I've made quite a few "fuck ups" in my time as well which I admit to and thank Lady Luck. Your post also makes me ask the question: Who the fuck are you? And what have you done apart from barriage us with almost almost 10,000 posts of absolute drivel and criticism of others of which and whom you know nothing? By the way, cocktail hour or not, I had a very serious bypass operation in July and I no longer drink (Docs orders) so stuff that up your ass and smoke it.

You may wanna consider consulting with a medical malpractice attorney-----'cuz methinks they by-passed something more critical than your heart.....

[BrianM]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt...

I disagree. While I've never sailed a tall ship, I have covered thousands of miles of ocean in many weather conditions, and been the captain of two ships: one 250 feet long, one 505 feet. I would not have taken the 250 footer to sea with that forecast. Our rule of thumb: if you can't make at least 15 knots through 12 foot seas you don't try to out run it, you don't try to cross the T.

No way in hell BOUNTY could make that speed in a seaway. Cape Hatteras was showing 20+ foot seas from 1200Z on the 27th until around 1200Z on the 30th. Look at Buoy 41001, 150 NM east of the Cape - seas were up in the 30s when BOUNTY was there. I wouldn't have taken my big ship through that.

Reports earlier today that another survival suit had been spotted in the water some 10 miles further east. Aircraft enroute to investigate.

[gusmus]

You may wanna consider consulting with a medical malpractice attorney-----'cuz methinks they by-passed something more critical than your heart.....

And methinks I have lost all respect for a asshole once called R, Booth. G'bye fool.

[Tucky]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

This would be true if it was true. The skipper's decision was not to seek safety at sea, or he wouldn't have ended up off Cape Hatteras. Based on the characteristics of the boat, as quoted from their own website, the boat could not sail close enough to the wind to seek safety at sea unless he headed for Nova Scotia or thought he could power, or discarded the outlying projected hurricane tracks, or did not keep up with the weather forecasts. You don't skirt a hurricane without speed and sea room.

[mad]

Wanna answer the question Gusmus?

[Dixie]

I just read through the Facebook posts on their page, which I expect may shortly come down. They consistently defend their position and also the inability of the boat to sail North or East as that type of rig cannot sail into the wind, in fact 60 degrees is the closest she can sail to the wind. Given that the boat has survived other storms at sea, and the captain is trusted to keep boat and lives safe they felt it safest to go east and ride it out off shore.

It's sickening to read the posts on 10/26 from pretty much everyone on shore begging them to find a safe harbor. It was these posts that seemed to push the FB Admin of the Bounty site to defend with numerous posts the decision, for the safety of the boat, to go offshore. I am so sorry for the families who had to watch, play by play, in horror as the boat sailed into what was ultimately her undoing, and putting in peril everyone on board.

Unreal.

Was there any indication who made that decision, why they were out to sea in the first place and why it was deemed safer to go offshore than seek shelter?

I cannot speak to the decision makers. Shelter for this size of boat would mean very likely against a sea wall and thereby thrashed by the storm seas.

Here's the first post in defense of going off shore:
Riding the Storm Out...Day 2

I'm sure that Bounty's crew would be overwhelmed by all the prayers and best wishes that have been given.
Rest assured that the Bounty is safe and in very capable hands.
Bounty's current voyage is a calculated decision...NOT AT ALL... irresponsible or with a lack of foresight as some have suggested.
The fact of the matter is...

A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!

In the next few posts I will try to quell some fears and help to explain some of the dynamics that are in Bounty's favor.
photo is of Bounty in high seas sailing from Maine to Puerto Riico in 2010


Second:

There's No Leeshore Offshore

Explaining some of the factors that are in Bounty's favor.
The 4th paragraph sums it all up.

an acknowledgement to one Robert Isinberg for this insight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_shore

Third:
LOCATE THE LOW AND GO AWAY FROM IT !
The need to be able to navigate is critical for the safety of the Bounty....Even Physics has it in Bounty's favor.[with this youtube link]

[gusmus]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt...

I disagree. While I've never sailed a tall ship, I have covered thousands of miles of ocean in many weather conditions, and been the captain of two ships: one 250 feet long, one 505 feet. I would not have taken the 250 footer to sea with that forecast. Our rule of thumb: if you can't make at least 15 knots through 12 foot seas you don't try to out run it, you don't try to cross the T.

No way in hell BOUNTY could make that speed in a seaway. Cape Hatteras was showing 20+ foot seas from 1200Z on the 27th until around 1200Z on the 30th. Look at Buoy 41001, 150 NM east of the Cape - seas were up in the 30s when BOUNTY was there. I wouldn't have taken my big ship through that.

Reports earlier today that another survival suit had been spotted in the water some 10 miles further east. Aircraft enroute to investigate.

You're right Brian to some extent but skippers are no different from car drivers. You make a decision to brake and hit black ice that you didn't know was there and you hit a tree. Whos fault was it? A boat goes to sea and is in all points seaworthy but then starts taking water and sinks. Whos fault is it. I think that in the eyes of the skipper of the "Bounty" he made a calculated decision and it went tits up. Whether it went tits up because of his decision or because of circumstances outside of his intervention is something that will no doubt become clear in any forthcoming enquiry, but to diss the skipper without knowing the full facts and the crews attitude to setting sail in the first place seems to me to be nothing more than a witch hunt of which SA is notorious. Too many armchair lawyers on here. Always looking for someone to blame except themselves.

[R Booth]

Yeah, 'cuz it's OUR fault.


See what I mean now about consulting an attorney? Ya gotta work with me here, Gus, as I'm only trying to help.....

[gusmus]

Wanna answer the question Gusmus?

I'm defending no one mate. I am defending the right to be wrong sometimes, and we all are. I'm also defending the right to a fair hearing and not an outright condemation on some obscure sailing forum.

[mad]

How many other boats apart from large commercial and US Navy opted to do the same?

[gusmus]

How many other boats apart from large commercial and US Navy opted to do the same?

I have no idea. Search the web and find out. You may be surprised. A bottle rarely ever breaks at sea,,, only when it hts land.

[mad]

Wanna answer the question Gusmus?

I'm defending no one mate. I am defending the right to be wrong sometimes, and we all are. I'm also defending the right to a fair hearing and not an outright condemation on some obscure sailing forum.

The right to be wrong?? Your fucking kidding me?
Let's hope this one doesn't slip into commercial airline policy or the demolition trade.

Wonder why BP and Haliburton didn't pull that one as a defence.

[R Booth]

This happens at weddings every single day of the week, Mad........

[Cement_Shoes]

Wanna answer the question Gusmus?

I'm defending no one mate. I am defending the right to be wrong sometimes, and we all are. I'm also defending the right to a fair hearing and not an outright condemation on some obscure sailing forum.

The Captain gambled that he was going to be right with his vessel and the lives of everyone on board. Clearly hindsight shows that it was the wrong decision. But even looking at the information that was available to him at the time the decision to leave port was made, it looks like a very unwise decision.

A MAJOR storm , that the vessel was neither staunch enough to weather nor fast enough to outrun, stayed within the realm of what it was forecast to do and sunk the Bounty.

[Dixie]

A video interview with the owner of Bounty.

http://www.usatoday....search/1668455/

[mad]

How many other boats apart from large commercial and US Navy opted to do the same?

I have no idea. Search the web and find out. You may be surprised. A bottle rarely ever breaks at sea,,, only when it hts land.

You're right, its not the falling out of the aircraft that kills you, its just that split secound landing bit.
I hope you've retired.

[BrianM]

How many other boats apart from large commercial and US Navy opted to do the same?

Don't think you could nail that down, because we only hear about the ones who didn't make it. I can say there was very little maritime SAR over the last few days (like ONE, basically). That doesn't mean there weren't other ships/boats out there who made it through.

(edit to add a slow thought): actually, there are people who pay attention to traffic up and down the coast. However, they are generally limited to larger stuff transmitting AIS. Going off to look at some web displays now....

Navy actually reversed - a few ships sortied friday afternoon, everyone else stayed home. Concluded that it was too late to sail on saturday morning - not enough time to avoid the building seas.

[Rasputin22]

Third:
LOCATE THE LOW AND GO AWAY FROM IT !
The need to be able to navigate is critical for the safety of the Bounty....Even Physics has it in Bounty's favor.[with this youtube link]

Just watched that clip and I felt it was confusing. I've had a pretty good grasp of the concept for many years and have used it to save my more than once. There was a great article in Cruising World on the the old sailing ships means of avoiding a low by watching the swell and sea pattern and direction, cloud cover, and barometer. For a sailing vessel, the Buys-Ballot law was better explained by putting your back to the wind and the holding you LEFT hand out to point at the low. Then by putting your vessel on a STARBOARD BROAD REACH, you will be taken to the navigable quadrant at the best possible speed with less swell to impede your escape. I've put in a call to CW to see if they can come up with a reprint of that article as it was the best bit of sailing advise I've ever seen.

[Monster Mash]

From another site

Last picture taken before abandoning ship.

[mad]

How many other boats apart from large commercial and US Navy opted to do the same?

Don't think you could nail that down, because we only hear about the ones who didn't make it. I can say there was very little maritime SAR over the last few days (like ONE, basically). That doesn't mean there weren't other ships/boats out there who made it through.

Navy actually reversed - a few ships sortied friday afternoon, everyone else stayed home. Concluded that it was too late to sail on saturday morning - not enough time to avoid the building seas.

Didn't ever think it would be easy to nail down, maybe checking AIS would be an option. Was just curious to see if Gusmus wanted to put a figure on it, seeing as he thought it was a reasonable gamble to take.
Defendible under the grounds of 'the right to be wrong'

[FMcCool]

A perfect example of why you never let the itinerary trump crew/boat safety. Also - a boat may be safer off-shore, but that may not be the case for crew.

[mad]

Third:
LOCATE THE LOW AND GO AWAY FROM IT !
The need to be able to navigate is critical for the safety of the Bounty....Even Physics has it in Bounty's favor.[with this youtube link]

Just watched that clip and I felt it was confusing. I've had a pretty good grasp of the concept for many years and have used it to save my more than once. There was a great article in Cruising World on the the old sailing ships means of avoiding a low by watching the swell and sea pattern and direction, cloud cover, and barometer. For a sailing vessel, the Buys-Ballot law was better explained by putting your back to the wind and the holding you LEFT hand out to point at the low. Then by putting your vessel on a STARBOARD BROAD REACH, you will be taken to the navigable quadrant at the best possible speed with less swell to impede your escape. I've put in a call to CW to see if they can come up with a reprint of that article as it was the best bit of sailing advise I've ever seen.

Wonder how many other posters remember that law from seamanship and nav class?

[Hwyl]

I started this thread on Saturday

[Cement_Shoes]

A video interview with the owner of Bounty.

http://www.usatoday....search/1668455/

When was this video from? Of course it was edited but the owner seemed more distraught about the loss of the boat than the crew. Also seems like he is already distancing himself from the decision to leave port... "I had complete trust in the captain's decision..." or something to that effect.

[Debos]

• One thing the captain, and many people don't take into account when saying that a vessel is safer at sea, is that when these designs were in wide use, the death toll for crew was massive. Wooden ships sank all the time, for all sorts of reasons, including inability to keep the water outside the boat during storms. And of course, wooden ships were considered old and dangerous long before they reached 50 years old, as this one was. Regardless of how many rebuilds.

[NoStrings]

I've never sailed offshore on the EC, so I have a dumb question for you guys, especially ESTAR or Eisberg if they're still here on SA paying attention.

1. It's obvious that the Bounty had a commitment to meet in St. Pete. How hard would it be for a full rigger like Bounty to get to St. Pete from Bermuda?

I'm asking that because it makes no sense to me to plot a course that maximized Bounty's exposure in the NW quadrant of a hurricane, unless he was gambling on the storm hanging a right turn vs. the turn to the WNW.

[mad]

A video interview with the owner of Bounty.

http://www.usatoday....search/1668455/

When was this video from? Of course it was edited but the owner seemed more distraught about the loss of the boat than the crew. Also seems like he is already distancing himself from the decision to leave port... "I had complete trust in the captain's decision..." or something to that effect.

Lawyers will have been hold on the other line the minute the shit started to fly.

[CKDexterHaven]

That coastie video is riveting. So much respect for them. Thank you USCG!

[Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit]

Third:
LOCATE THE LOW AND GO AWAY FROM IT !
The need to be able to navigate is critical for the safety of the Bounty....Even Physics has it in Bounty's favor.[with this youtube link]

Just watched that clip and I felt it was confusing. I've had a pretty good grasp of the concept for many years and have used it to save my more than once. There was a great article in Cruising World on the the old sailing ships means of avoiding a low by watching the swell and sea pattern and direction, cloud cover, and barometer. For a sailing vessel, the Buys-Ballot law was better explained by putting your back to the wind and the holding you LEFT hand out to point at the low. Then by putting your vessel on a STARBOARD BROAD REACH, you will be taken to the navigable quadrant at the best possible speed with less swell to impede your escape. I've put in a call to CW to see if they can come up with a reprint of that article as it was the best bit of sailing advise I've ever seen.

That video clip talks at the end there that Buys Ballot law is best used for DEEP OCEAN events. Yes, locate the low and go away from it but if there's a nice 'hurricane hole' in that direction then doggone it,, USE it!! Because of the coastal contour at the Capes it's likely that Bounty could not stay on a starboard broad reach without venturing into even shallower, more dangerous waters. Even the photo just posted shows them on a port broad. The thought that the boat could have easily put into Hampton Roads on Sunday and not lost much time at all,, they could be underway again, is painful. Only the military trumps vessel survival over crew safety. I look at their fix on the 26th and the routing and all I can say is "Coffin Corner"..

[Dixie]

From another site

Last picture taken before abandoning ship.

This photo and many others of HMS Bounty can be found on their Facebook page here. https://www.facebook...SBounty?fref=ts
She was a beautiful boat.


Here is their most recent post.
We are mourn the loss of Bounty's crewmember Claudene Christian and Pray for the continued efforts to rescue our Beloved Captain, Robin Walbridge.

A RELIEF FUND has been established by past crew members for donations to the families of Claudene Christian and Captain Robin Walbridge, along with the 14 surviving members of the crew, who lost everything in the tragic loss of the HMS Bounty.

Much Appeciated Donations can be sent to via PayPal
HMSBounty2012@Yahoo.com

Attached Files

•  photo-3.jpeg   28.16K   13 downloads

[Jonathan Green]

Having briefly served on the Picton Castle under Capt Moreland, I have a tremendous amount of respect for him, his ship and his seamanship. Here's an excerpt from the PC's blog explaining the reasons they delayed their departure from Lunenburg last week. The loss of the Bounty reminds me to pick my shipmates and those I serve with offshore very carefully. You life may well be in their hands.


"Last week Captain Moreland made the decision that the Picton Castle would not set sail as planned on the 21st, but stay in Lunenburg because of the weather. He says that he did not make that decision because he knew that the nascent low pressure system in the Caribbean was going to turn into a hurricane; but precisely because nobody knew what it was going to turn into or how big or strong. It was the uncertaintity which kept us fast alongside. At that time there was not yet a hurricane, just some ominously bright colours on the long range forecasts. And crucially the forecasts, which are based on a handful of different computer models, were very divergent in their predictions. The forecasts were all over the place. This is a sign that they were not yet reliable – if the models all say the same thing, there’s a reasonable chance that they are right, even looking quite a few days ahead; if they differ, not so much. And so we stayed in port for a couple of days to see how the system would develop and where it was headed.

What developed of course was Hurricane Sandy, which has been moving slowly north rather than heading out into the Atlantic as we had hoped it might. By Tuesday/Wednesday it was clear that we were looking a very big and broad weather system, and not one you could expect to dodge around. This was going to take up much of the western North Atlantic. The Captain figured that this was going to take a week or more to clear up, so here we sit in Lunenburg. We have never waited before so long for a single weather system."

[Dixie]

Third:
LOCATE THE LOW AND GO AWAY FROM IT !
The need to be able to navigate is critical for the safety of the Bounty....Even Physics has it in Bounty's favor.[with this youtube link]

Just watched that clip and I felt it was confusing. I've had a pretty good grasp of the concept for many years and have used it to save my more than once. There was a great article in Cruising World on the the old sailing ships means of avoiding a low by watching the swell and sea pattern and direction, cloud cover, and barometer. For a sailing vessel, the Buys-Ballot law was better explained by putting your back to the wind and the holding you LEFT hand out to point at the low. Then by putting your vessel on a STARBOARD BROAD REACH, you will be taken to the navigable quadrant at the best possible speed with less swell to impede your escape. I've put in a call to CW to see if they can come up with a reprint of that article as it was the best bit of sailing advise I've ever seen.

That video clip talks at the end there that Buys Ballot law is best used for DEEP OCEAN events. Yes, locate the low and go away from it but if there's a nice 'hurricane hole' in that direction then doggone it,, USE it!! Because of the coastal contour at the Capes it's likely that Bounty could not stay on a starboard broad reach without venturing into even shallower, more dangerous waters. Even the photo just posted shows them on a port broad. The thought that the boat could have easily put into Hampton Roads on Sunday and not lost much time at all,, they could be underway again, is painful. Only the military trumps vessel survival over crew safety. I look at their fix on the 26th and the routing and all I can say is "Coffin Corner"..

for edification: There is a note on one of their posts that states they were not sending photos from the boat. This one is actually from a sail in 2010 to Puerto Rico

[R Booth]

Having briefly served on the Picton Castle under Capt Moreland, I have a tremendous amount of respect for him, his ship and his seamanship. Here's an excerpt from the PC's blog explaining the reasons they delayed their departure from Lunenburg last week. The loss of the Bounty reminds me to pick my shipmates and those I serve with offshore very carefully. You life may well be in their hands.


"Last week Captain Moreland made the decision that the Picton Castle would not set sail as planned on the 21st, but stay in Lunenburg because of the weather. He says that he did not make that decision because he knew that the nascent low pressure system in the Caribbean was going to turn into a hurricane; but precisely because nobody knew what it was going to turn into or how big or strong. It was the uncertaintity which kept us fast alongside. At that time there was not yet a hurricane, just some ominously bright colours on the long range forecasts. And crucially the forecasts, which are based on a handful of different computer models, were very divergent in their predictions. The forecasts were all over the place. This is a sign that they were not yet reliable – if the models all say the same thing, there’s a reasonable chance that they are right, even looking quite a few days ahead; if they differ, not so much. And so we stayed in port for a couple of days to see how the system would develop and where it was headed.

What developed of course was Hurricane Sandy, which has been moving slowly north rather than heading out into the Atlantic as we had hoped it might. By Tuesday/Wednesday it was clear that we were looking a very big and broad weather system, and not one you could expect to dodge around. This was going to take up much of the western North Atlantic. The Captain figured that this was going to take a week or more to clear up, so here we sit in Lunenburg. We have never waited before so long for a single weather system."

And how did the Picton Castle fare this week?....

[Delta Blues]

+ another 1,000 for the Coasties.

Watching people get winched up makes it look like that winch must be spinning a thousand miles an hour. Zing and the basket is in the helo. Maybe it is that the distance isn't very far, but it looks like a thrilling ride!

It's bad more mariners succumed to the sea.

[BronzeWing]

It is a shame this has happened. Sure the theory is the further from land you are the "safer" it is. Only applies if you are already at sea. Sure the ship could have got trashed tied up but at least it would have only been the ship lost. Big ups to the Coasties. However much they get paid it isn't enough

[DRIFTW00D]

shipfinder.co

http://shipfinder.co/

Move the page to the east coast off Delaware. Go to the top of the page, pick a day, set play back at 120 and start. See what Captains with tight EXPENSIVE schedules did. Most headed for an anchorage. Some out north of the storm believing it would Left Hook. A lot of ships rode it out in Delaware Bay at one point ground 0.

[Foolish]

Any confirmation that the woman who died was actually a direct descendant of Fletcher Christian? Wow.

Yes, this is what CBC is reporting.

Christian was a descendant of Fletcher Christian, the master's mate who seized control of the original Bounty during Capt. William Bligh's voyage in 1789.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ain-search.html

[JumpingJax]

This story is just gut wrenching. A post from a crew member (it's public) is evocative: "I have to figure out how to get home. I've adopted my gumby suit and will take it with me.

And I want to thank the people who helped train me to handle this sort of situation- Cal Maritime for BST and PMI for the AB course. It all helped.

It's a shame that the BOUNTY office hasn't done anything for us- we've gotten help from the USCG and the Red Cross instead."

It's much more than a shame the owners haven't done anything. It's a major breach of duty under the Jones Act (assuming it applies to these seamen) or a failure to mitigate damages for the gross negligence of their agent (the captain). The owners will probably soon learn the latin expression "respondiat superior."

[Patriot]

Anyone find a better track of the Bounty than this one here....note the times are UTC, which is currently four hours ahead of US EDT. The Bounty's "1808" position was taken at 1408 local time on Sunday afternoon. Seems the Bounty put out a distress call around 1830 local time on Sunday night (no power on board, and bilge pumps unable to keep up), and the Captain ordered the crew to abandon ship around 0400 local time on Monday morning.

http://www.sailwx.in...ml?call=WDD9114

Also, here's the track of Sandy.....all times are US EDT:

http://www.weather.c...cker/2012/sandy


Edit: news reports indicate the Bounty was about 160 miles west of the eye of the storm when they got into trouble

[U20guy2]

When its a play boat ie old wood thing used for shows and giving people rides and such - no life is worth loosing over trying to "skirt" a storm when the boat sits in a protected harbor tied to a dock and a known storm system is looking to be very bad.

A freighter with millions in cargo and a schedule - that is a different story get off the dock and make some miles to get clear of the storm and stay as close to the schedule as possible. A freaking tall ship is not a steel hulled prop driven freighter!

[kent_island_sailor]

Gusmus - Since you are not from here, I'll give you a little bit of a break.
Hatteras + Gulf Stream + Hurricane = death trap and has for CENTURIES now.
This ship, like hundreds before her, was trapped where you can't go east without getting into waves that are incredibly steep and can't go west without running up on the shoals where the waves get incredibly steep and you can't turn around. You are trying to thread the narrowest of needles with an old wooden ship.
This was no freak accident or unlucky turn - this was a 100% predictable suicide mission. I am trying to think of an EU metaphor and the best I can do right now is driving the wrong way on the Autobahn with your eyes closed because you don't want your car to get rained on.

They might have been OK if they had taken off NORTH as quick as they could. But they didn't. Trying to keep to an owner's schedule and a late season departure to skirt Hatteras in bad weather has to be Standard Reason #1 to die off the North Carolina coast since the 1500s or so. At least the old time captains had an excuse - they only thought there might be a bad storm out there, they didn't KNOW for sure.

[kmcfast]

Got to be some hurricane holes to ride this out in. rather than sail into that shit.
The charter cats in the BVI, they cut rudders off removed masts and anchored in the mangroves.

[kent_island_sailor]

AFAIK a hurricane hole was right up the river they were anchored in AND they could have ducked back in at Norkolk and found any number of spots perhaps.

Got to be some hurricane holes to ride this out in. rather than sail into that shit.
The charter cats in the BVI, they cut rudders off removed masts and anchored in the mangroves.

[Estar]

I've never sailed offshore on the EC, so I have a dumb question for you guys, especially ESTAR or Eisberg if they're still here on SA paying attention.

1. It's obvious that the Bounty had a commitment to meet in St. Pete. How hard would it be for a full rigger like Bounty to get to St. Pete from Bermuda?

I'm asking that because it makes no sense to me to plot a course that maximized Bounty's exposure in the NW quadrant of a hurricane, unless he was gambling on the storm hanging a right turn vs. the turn to the WNW.

Bermuda to St Pete? No problem at all. Sail south until you get the easterlies and then turn west. My impression is that she had decently strong engines also.

I am still a bit puzzled by why the vessel foundered. That should have been survivable weather for that vessel.

RIP the two souls.

[U20guy2]

I've never sailed offshore on the EC, so I have a dumb question for you guys, especially ESTAR or Eisberg if they're still here on SA paying attention.

1. It's obvious that the Bounty had a commitment to meet in St. Pete. How hard would it be for a full rigger like Bounty to get to St. Pete from Bermuda?

I'm asking that because it makes no sense to me to plot a course that maximized Bounty's exposure in the NW quadrant of a hurricane, unless he was gambling on the storm hanging a right turn vs. the turn to the WNW.

Bermuda to St Pete? No problem at all. Sail south until you get the easterlies and then turn west. My impression is that she had decently strong engines also.

I am still a bit puzzled by why the vessel foundered. That should have been survivable weather for that vessel.

RIP the two souls.

Spring a plank getting dropped off a wave an old wood hull is not the place I would want to be. Clearly it wasn't survivable

[Dixie]

Anyone find a better track of the Bounty than this one here....note the times are UTC, which is currently four hours ahead of US EDT. The Bounty's "1808" position was taken at 1408 local time on Sunday afternoon. Seems the Bounty put out a distress call around 1830 local time on Sunday night (no power on board, and bilge pumps unable to keep up), and the Captain ordered the crew to abandon ship around 0400 local time on Monday morning.

http://www.sailwx.in...ml?call=WDD9114

Also, here's the track of Sandy.....all times are US EDT:

http://www.weather.c...cker/2012/sandy


Edit: news reports indicate the Bounty was about 160 miles west of the eye of the storm when they got into trouble

So I've been following this page, and aside from a few jerks, fairly astute and thoughtful questions and information. Same with the Bounty FB page. The coast guard puts out pretty good detail on the rescue. This has been a tough year for recreational sailors and those who know know that this story is a sad sad one and I feel for the families of the lost and the survivors. I am trying not to make assumptions on the decisions of the crew and owners to leave the dock, but do have questions about the boat and her capabilities. It seems they must have felt secure in the boat's seaworthiness and the crew's ability to put her to sea with Sandy looming, so I ask this of those of you more experienced in these sorts of boats:

With her course as linked above and the storms bands giving them ENE wind (is that correct?), what is the optimal direction they could head? Under what sails? I am assuming that their twin 375s could not do much for this size ship against 40+ knots and building seas. If the wind was from the Northeast, I don't think they could have headed anywhere close to North because of her design. I also expect when the genset failed on Sunday, they lost all of their options, other than to step up from the boat into a life raft. So during Friday and Saturday based on her position, the time, and wind direction where could she have 1) safely sailed and 2) possibly sailed?

[Estar]

where could she have 1) safely sailed and 2) possibly sailed?

They needed to #1 stay to the west of the storm center to have following winds, and #2 avoid the north wall and main axis of the gulf stream to have the best sea state, and #3 keep as much sea room as possible.

I have not plotted the track carefully, but on a glace it looks like they were doing exactly that.

On the 25th (when I think they departed) there was significant disagreement on Sandy's track, with some of the important ones taking it out to sea. Thus they may have been forced further west than they expected when the very unusual sharp left turn that sandy took became clear in the models (on the 26th). That would have taken them into worse wave conditions (nearer the gulf stream and the shelf).

If they had bailed out on the 26th (when Sandy's track became more clear) it looks like they could have made Norfolk.

However, where they were, when they abandoned, neither the wind nor the waves were terrible.

They had to have had a cascade of failures.

[R Booth]

They had to have had a cascade of failures.

I may steal that one for a book title some day.....

[gusmus]

Gusmus - Since you are not from here, I'll give you a little bit of a break.
Hatteras + Gulf Stream + Hurricane = death trap and has for CENTURIES now.
This ship, like hundreds before her, was trapped where you can't go east without getting into waves that are incredibly steep and can't go west without running up on the shoals where the waves get incredibly steep and you can't turn around. You are trying to thread the narrowest of needles with an old wooden ship.
This was no freak accident or unlucky turn - this was a 100% predictable suicide mission. I am trying to think of an EU metaphor and the best I can do right now is driving the wrong way on the Autobahn with your eyes closed because you don't want your car to get rained on.

They might have been OK if they had taken off NORTH as quick as they could. But they didn't. Trying to keep to an owner's schedule and a late season departure to skirt Hatteras in bad weather has to be Standard Reason #1 to die off the North Carolina coast since the 1500s or so. At least the old time captains had an excuse - they only thought there might be a bad storm out there, they didn't KNOW for sure.

Kent. I've been through the gulf stream many times heading back to Europe and I know that it doesn't even need a hurricane to make life nasty if you hit a northerly when the stream is running strong. I have no argument with anyone as to what or why things went wrong. I just don't like to see a reputable skipper being shat apon by a bunch of armchair experts who don't know the full circumstances of the situation. Let the surviving crew tell the story and everybody stop being so bloody righteous after the fact, because most of yabbers on here couldn't sail a teabag from the kettle into the cup without shouting for help.

[blisspacket]

Beaucoup comments from sailors and salts. This is, was, human drama and hubris and weakness --and deus ex machina with ultimate saviors our very competent USCG. Salutes to USCG.

But the screenplay centers on the Captain. The Captain on Facebook and on departure exudes hubris. We're told too of one crewmember, a beauty queen Christian with forebears dating to antiquity. She foretells by phone to her mother, as in a Greek Tragedy, that she is off into danger and might never return.

Within the confines of the Bounty, what dynamics led to the Captain's command in New London "Cast off all lines"

[NautiGirl]

So who/what is/was the person with the final say, as to whether she should go or not go out to sea? Was it the captain? Or 'Administration' that could have/should have put their foot down and pull the plug on this voyage before it started?......

Whether it is a ship or an airplane, responsibility always lies with the Captain.

[Mark K]

I just read through the Facebook posts on their page, which I expect may shortly come down. They consistently defend their position and also the inability of the boat to sail North or East as that type of rig cannot sail into the wind, in fact 60 degrees is the closest she can sail to the wind. Given that the boat has survived other storms at sea, and the captain is trusted to keep boat and lives safe they felt it safest to go east and ride it out off shore.

It's sickening to read the posts on 10/26 from pretty much everyone on shore begging them to find a safe harbor. It was these posts that seemed to push the FB Admin of the Bounty site to defend with numerous posts the decision, for the safety of the boat, to go offshore. I am so sorry for the families who had to watch, play by play, in horror as the boat sailed into what was ultimately her undoing, and putting in peril everyone on board.

Unreal.

Was there any indication who made that decision, why they were out to sea in the first place and why it was deemed safer to go offshore than seek shelter?

Works for Tsunamis. Hurricanes? Not so much...

[CowboyKell]

Beaucoup comments from sailors and salts. This is, was, human drama and hubris and weakness --and deus ex machina with ultimate saviors our very competent USCG. Salutes to USCG.

But the screenplay centers on the Captain. The Captain on Facebook and on departure exudes hubris. We're told too of one crewmember, a beauty queen Christian with forebears dating to antiquity. She foretells by phone to her mother, as in a Greek Tragedy, that she is off into danger and might never return.

Within the confines of the Bounty, what dynamics led to the Captain's command in New London "Cast off all lines"

Gees, This piece of shit goes on ignore right away.

[R Booth]

Beaucoup comments from sailors and salts. This is, was, human drama and hubris and weakness --and deus ex machina with ultimate saviors our very competent USCG. Salutes to USCG.

But the screenplay centers on the Captain. The Captain on Facebook and on departure exudes hubris. We're told too of one crewmember, a beauty queen Christian with forebears dating to antiquity. She foretells by phone to her mother, as in a Greek Tragedy, that she is off into danger and might never return.

Within the confines of the Bounty, what dynamics led to the Captain's command in New London "Cast off all lines"

Gees, This piece of shit goes on ignore right away.

Sounds like the son of Mike Woofsey and Derek Greebe, donut? Or whoever the hell that way-out-there UK'er was who used to post stuff like this a few years back......

[Estar]

If you were looking at the weather on the 25th, trying to determine whether to depart and how to route, here are the forecast maps you would have seen:

24 hours out (10/26)
 sandy24.jpg   150.45K   29 downloads

48 hours out (10/27)
 sandy48.jpg   101.48K   31 downloads

72 hours out (10/28)
 sandy72.jpg   119.71K   33 downloads

96 hours out (10/29)
 sandy96.jpg   132.93K   27 downloads

[ropetrick]

A limey wofsey? What's next, an Aussie gator?

[R Booth]

A limey wofsey? What's next, an Aussie gator platypus?

Methinks you have just solved one of The World's greatest mysteries.....

[Dixie]

If you were looking at the weather on the 25th, trying to determine whether to depart and how to route, here are the forecast maps you would have seen:

24 hours out (10/26)
 sandy24.jpg   150.45K   29 downloads

48 hours out (10/27)
 sandy48.jpg   101.48K   31 downloads

72 hours out (10/28)
 sandy72.jpg   119.71K   33 downloads

96 hours out (10/29)
 sandy96.jpg   132.93K   27 downloads

It's hard to see this and not second guess the captain. But from all I've read, he was so respected and so trusted and had a crew who worked well together. I think as often happens in these sort of tragedies, it wasn't just any one event that caused this, but as you said so eloquently a 'cascade of failures.'

I know I keep repeating this as it is important to remember, the shock of loss of life, of boat and of livelihood and for many a home, is still weighing heavily with those closest to this. The coast guard rescue was superlative.

[dal]

From a tranquil cloudy morning, on her last visit to San Diego.
Respect to the USCG, who prevented a huge loss of life!

Attached Files

•  IMG_0032_crop (Large).jpg   151.4K   24 downloads

[Problem Child]

I see a fuck of a lot of criticism here but not a hell of a lot of experience talking. The captain was given the post because he was competent and not because he was a nary asshole. The captain was in charge of the boat and made a decision which; if you look at the charts from 3 days ago, was the right one (We're safer at sea than we are in a harbour). The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one). The state of the boat to ride out such a storm and the estimated speed in which she would be able to skirt the storm are the only things in doubt, but, how many of us have had the shit hit the fan in a 22 footer,,,( never mind a near on 200 footer) and thought.. Shit, I am lucky to be here. Most of all. How many assholes are starting to shift the blame on an experienced skipper who have never gotten there feet wet apart from in a badly sailed Oppy?

I keep hearing this repeated over and over... does anyone have ANY evidence to back this up? At what point does someone who believes this draw the line? Are they saying they would take their Mac 26 out in this blow? A navy ship is a far cry from an aging square rigger... unfortunately we can't ask the opinion of those onboard the Edmund Fitzgerald.

[Enzedel 92]

Taxpayers dollars at work.

[Estar]

The coast guard rescue was superlative.

Absolutely.

It's hard to see this and not second guess the captain. But from all I've read, he was so respected and so trusted and had a crew who worked well together.

Looking at those forecast maps, there is a possible route there, but it is very 'sporty' with little margin for error. All I can think is that the Captain had a pride in meeting his destination commitments - that's a distinction among this peer group- and great confidence in self and vessel.

[Keith]

If you were looking at the weather on the 25th, trying to determine whether to depart and how to route, here are the forecast maps you would have seen:

24 hours out (10/26)
 sandy24.jpg   150.45K   29 downloads

48 hours out (10/27)
 sandy48.jpg   101.48K   31 downloads

72 hours out (10/28)
 sandy72.jpg   119.71K   33 downloads

96 hours out (10/29)
 sandy96.jpg   132.93K   27 downloads

Based on these weather chart forecasts, I would be looking for a good protected place to hunker down, to ride this out, while waiting for it to pass.

But that would be my personal choice. The weather always receives my highest respect, and any other schedules will simply have to wait.

[bwd]

. The tropical storm grew not in velocity but in size, (not even the forecasters can guess that one)

FAIL
um, yes they can, and did.
This was EXACTLY what the storm was predicted to do in this case, meeting up with US winter weather systems as it moved north.
What was unknown was whether Sandy would devastate VA and MD and a bit of NJ,
or whether it would land a bit north as it did and lay waste to the northeast,
as well as your reputation as an internet skipper.
In fact the emphasis of the forecasters through the period was that it DID NOT MATTER what the track was because the storm would be SEVERE over an area 1000 miles wide, despite relatively low Category I windspeeds.

[Disambiguated]

• One thing the captain, and many people don't take into account when saying that a vessel is safer at sea, is that when these designs were in wide use, the death toll for crew was massive. Wooden ships sank all the time, for all sorts of reasons, including inability to keep the water outside the boat during storms. And of course, wooden ships were considered old and dangerous long before they reached 50 years old, as this one was. Regardless of how many rebuilds.

Spot on. If you look at the historical record for ships of that type in the 18th century, you'll see that many if not most of them were wrecked. The safety record at the time was horrendous. What the crews of recreations of these ships have going for them nowadays is vastly better weather information. Ignore it,and expect to return to an 18th century accident rate.

[DRIFTW00D]

The video of the Coast Guard rescue amazingly compelling. It is hard to believe the calmness in the voices of the crew and pilots, especially with the altimeter warning repeatedly calls for altitude. I am always glad these folks are out there, doing what they do...

+1000 Go Coasties! (said with a new sense of appreciation)

Win ever

+1000 brave crew. Let's hope the USA doesn't privatize this organization of life savers. Awesome exhibition of airmanship.

Before there WAS a Coast Guard there were the boys who had to go out but did not have to come back. USLSS.

They were called storm fighters, and they were called storm warriors. When wind and wave conspired to kill those who dared to tread upon the sea, the men of the United States Life-Saving Service left the comfort of their sturdy stations and entered the battle. With nothing more than wooden boats, cork lifejackets and the oil-skin foul weather gear on their backs, they let their muscle, determination and bravery lead the way. Time and again they smirked in the face of danger, and stole back the lives of men who were supposed to be dead, victims intended to be claimed by shipwrecks caused by storms.

They had their roots in eighteenth century volunteer efforts in Massachusetts. The federal government took steps to back their efforts with equipment and buildings in 1848, and again in 1871. Men who had risked their lives to save others for nothing more than a thank you soon were rewarded with steady jobs, but concomitantly tasked with daily drills and other expectations. By 1915, the rescuers of the United States Life-Saving Service - fishermen, lobstermen, crabbers, and others who grew up along America's shores - had saved more than 186,000 lives, becoming collectively the greatest institution of their kind in the world....more

[charisma94]

This directive may be outdated...

But in 1996, I had a 450 ton tall ship in refit at Palmer Johnson in Thunderbolt GA. (Savannah) A hurricane was lining us up, and we were in full preparation for the hit. Then 12 hrs before the predicted landfall, your USCG showed up and ordered me to sea... I was told by the CO that "all ships over 300GRT must proceed to sea and weather the storm out there." They were concerned vessels sinking in chanels but mostly about the damage to Port of Savannah infrastructure with ships tied to the docks during storm.

We were doing some work to the ships steering, so I could illustrate that my boat wasn't "seaworthy". Begrudgingly the CO let me stay at anchor in the marshes near Skidaway Is., but I had to leave the shipyard.

I don't know the GRT of BOUNTY, but if she's over 300GRT, and seaworthy, she may have been mandated to leave by the USCG in any case?

[Evo]

A limey wofsey? What's next, an Aussie gator platypus?

Methinks you have just solved one of The World's greatest mysteries.....

everyone knows you love a good bandwagon to jump on Boothy, but don't malign Derek Grebe....he was one of this sites finest posters ever. You'd know that if you'd been around afew years ago.

W0ofsey bashing?? Can't be enough of that

back to your regularly scheduled crucifixion.

[dolphinmaster]

Gusmus - Since you are not from here, I'll give you a little bit of a break.
Hatteras + Gulf Stream + Hurricane = death trap and has for CENTURIES now.
This ship, like hundreds before her, was trapped where you can't go east without getting into waves that are incredibly steep and can't go west without running up on the shoals where the waves get incredibly steep and you can't turn around. You are trying to thread the narrowest of needles with an old wooden ship.
This was no freak accident or unlucky turn - this was a 100% predictable suicide mission. I am trying to think of an EU metaphor and the best I can do right now is driving the wrong way on the Autobahn with your eyes closed because you don't want your car to get rained on.

They might have been OK if they had taken off NORTH as quick as they could. But they didn't. Trying to keep to an owner's schedule and a late season departure to skirt Hatteras in bad weather has to be Standard Reason #1 to die off the North Carolina coast since the 1500s or so. At least the old time captains had an excuse - they only thought there might be a bad storm out there, they didn't KNOW for sure.

Kent. I've been through the gulf stream many times heading back to Europe and I know that it doesn't even need a hurricane to make life nasty if you hit a northerly when the stream is running strong. I have no argument with anyone as to what or why things went wrong. I just don't like to see a reputable skipper being shat apon by a bunch of armchair experts who don't know the full circumstances of the situation. Let the surviving crew tell the story and everybody stop being so bloody righteous after the fact, because most of yabbers on here couldn't sail a teabag from the kettle into the cup without shouting for help.

Well G, that's where you are plain wrong.

[R Booth]

A limey wofsey? What's next, an Aussie gator platypus?

Methinks you have just solved one of The World's greatest mysteries.....

everyone knows you love a good bandwagon to jump on Boothy, but don't malign Derek Grebe....he was one of this sites finest posters ever. You'd know that if you'd been around afew years ago.

W0ofsey bashing?? Can't be enough of that

back to your regularly scheduled crucifixion.

Then it was the other guy from Britlandia I was thinking of, who used to write these long, flowery & non-sensical posts about shit that happened back when unicorns roamed the Earth. Kinda like Keats meets Hunter whilst on acid.


His name will come to me eventually,

[By the lee]

"Last week Captain Moreland made the decision that the Picton Castle would not set sail as planned on the 21st, but stay in Lunenburg because of the weather.

[sarcasm]No doubt....[/sarcasm]

http://www.cbc.ca/fi...oard/video.html