741 replies to this topic

[Estar]

"Coast Guard Vice Adm. Robert Parker, Operational Commander for the Atlantic Area, told ABC's Good Morning America that at the time of the distress call, the ship was taking on 2 feet of water an hour. It had about 10 feet of water when the crew abandoned the ship."

I make that to very roughly be 100' x 30' x 2' = 6000 cu ft/h = 44,880 gph = 748 gpm. Thats a lot of water . . . . but . . . .

A 10.7hp crash pump (98kg, 4" intake) can push 555gpm. That might be reduced by 50% pushing against a big head, so lets say 280 gpm in the real world. (there are bigger ones - particularly if you are willing to go diesel rather than gas)

So, if the 2 feet per hour is correct, the vessel might well have been saved with 3 operational crash pumps (or perhaps only 2 if the head pressure is not so large)

The USCG helos have a standard crash pump they drop to vessels, but (I believe) its 'only' a 4hp 150gpm model.
---------------------------
On another aspect. They had two 25 man life rafts. The story is a bit confusing, but one set of reports says that the USCG helo counted the full complement (16) of IR images in the rafts and then the rafts overturned and they lost two. Thats a reminder from safety training that over large rafts are NOT safer, and in fact are more likely to capsize as they are designed for 'human ballast'

[stranded]

from the captain's unfortunate video,

I get the sense he is " living the dream "

I hope it was not that which came to be in front of his training and experience.

Seems to be an element of this in the posting of the flowery ( to me ) piece written by a lady survivor,

Also the radio man's piece that was posted here, and the ham radio friendship between him and the captain.

I wonder if this " Bounty Culture " was part of Wallbridge's strength

in maintaining ongoing relations with Bounty's ownership and crew ?

Was he one of those people who had the happy knack of being able to say to people what they wanted to hear ?

....... At the very least, it sounds to me like he did not come across as a tyrannical type.





The water calculation by Estar to my metric brain comes to just under about 170 metric tonnes per hour.

Possibly a factor of .8 or .9 might account for the hull shape ?

It was certainly time to find another safer place ...................

[just cuz]

I think you've got a pretty good grasp on it, stranded. Robin was anything but tyrannical. He was a super nice, quiet guy... who lived in his own head. That helped him, as far as the program was concerned, but obviously that had its limitations when it came to the ocean. The program was the program, however; and nobody, including Robin, would get in the way of that.

As far as the crash pumps are concerned, Estar is probably pretty close. You also could also have filled the bilge up with float bags, or maybe tied helium balloons to the mast.... I'm not going to do the calculations on that... or you could have just stayed the fuck in port and guaranteed that your crew lived.

[Thomas Point]

I have often thought that if I were building an ocean going boat , I would want to have this kind of pump. The nice thing is that they pull hot air out of the engine room when the boat isn't sinking!

http://www.aes.net.nz/ESP.HTMl

This is also another layer of "swiss cheese"

[Tom Ray]

Well I guess it's all been said here, and pretty well by some. A sad, sad tale and I wish that sweet lady, Claudene, had not lost her life.

I am not an offshore sailor but have owned a self-built house boat for many years and weathered some large blows. Hurricane Bob put about 20 sailboats on the shore in my Cape Cod harbor, I weathered it well. Since my vessel has tons of windage and no real maneuverability, I have few choices when a hurricane is forecast. The tactic for the houseboat community is to seek a sheltered location and put out as many shore lines and anchors as possible, get off and hope for the best. Why Captain Walbridge would not have done the same in New London, which I read is a protected harbor, seems exceedingly reckless. Alternative strategies would have been to sail up river on the Hudson or another waterway as someone mentioned. I was in Cold Spring NY last summer (near West Point), the hills surrounding the river are very high there and it looks as if it would make a fine hurricane hole.

Putting out to sea in a modern Navy destroyer versus a wooden replica sailing ship with a small, largely inexperienced crew are not analogous. Putting out to sea in the direction of Novia Scotia versus heading directly into the teeth of a gigantic, killer storm, into some of the most treacherous waters on the coast, are not analogous.

I think the comments about the radical alteration of the ballast configuration are certainly quite interesting, especially as to how concentration of the weight after the refit might have affected the stress on structural members, caused leakage and altered handling characteristics.

Whenever failure strikes, it is always interesting to ponder the degree to which we create our own misfortune versus the degree to which we may be victims of sheer bad luck. In this case it seems apparent the ships master made a monumental blunder, for which not only he paid heavily.

This guy read the whole thread and made an intelligent comment and no one welcomes him? Where are your manners, people?

[kent_island_sailor]

I think at the point the USCG came out no pump short of something nuclear powered would have helped - the ship was half-submerged by then. Now if they had not "un-Maydayed" themselves the day before and got pumps THEN, they had a good chance of making it to port.

I think you've got a pretty good grasp on it, stranded. Robin was anything but tyrannical. He was a super nice, quiet guy... who lived in his own head. That helped him, as far as the program was concerned, but obviously that had its limitations when it came to the ocean. The program was the program, however; and nobody, including Robin, would get in the way of that.

As far as the crash pumps are concerned, Estar is probably pretty close. You also could also have filled the bilge up with float bags, or maybe tied helium balloons to the mast.... I'm not going to do the calculations on that... or you could have just stayed the fuck in port and guaranteed that your crew lived.

Great first post!
Now...........
FOASUST PLEASE!

Well I guess it's all been said here, and pretty well by some. A sad, sad tale and I wish that sweet lady, Claudene, had not lost her life.

I am not an offshore sailor but have owned a self-built house boat for many years and weathered some large blows. Hurricane Bob put about 20 sailboats on the shore in my Cape Cod harbor, I weathered it well. Since my vessel has tons of windage and no real maneuverability, I have few choices when a hurricane is forecast. The tactic for the houseboat community is to seek a sheltered location and put out as many shore lines and anchors as possible, get off and hope for the best. Why Captain Walbridge would not have done the same in New London, which I read is a protected harbor, seems exceedingly reckless. Alternative strategies would have been to sail up river on the Hudson or another waterway as someone mentioned. I was in Cold Spring NY last summer (near West Point), the hills surrounding the river are very high there and it looks as if it would make a fine hurricane hole.

Putting out to sea in a modern Navy destroyer versus a wooden replica sailing ship with a small, largely inexperienced crew are not analogous. Putting out to sea in the direction of Novia Scotia versus heading directly into the teeth of a gigantic, killer storm, into some of the most treacherous waters on the coast, are not analogous.

I think the comments about the radical alteration of the ballast configuration are certainly quite interesting, especially as to how concentration of the weight after the refit might have affected the stress on structural members, caused leakage and altered handling characteristics.

Whenever failure strikes, it is always interesting to ponder the degree to which we create our own misfortune versus the degree to which we may be victims of sheer bad luck. In this case it seems apparent the ships master made a monumental blunder, for which not only he paid heavily.

[Thomas Point]

I think at the point the USCG came out no pump short of something nuclear powered would have helped - the ship was half-submerged by then. Now if they had not "un-Maydayed" themselves the day before and got pumps THEN, they had a good chance of making it to port.

I think you've got a pretty good grasp on it, stranded. Robin was anything but tyrannical. He was a super nice, quiet guy... who lived in his own head. That helped him, as far as the program was concerned, but obviously that had its limitations when it came to the ocean. The program was the program, however; and nobody, including Robin, would get in the way of that.

As far as the crash pumps are concerned, Estar is probably pretty close. You also could also have filled the bilge up with float bags, or maybe tied helium balloons to the mast.... I'm not going to do the calculations on that... or you could have just stayed the fuck in port and guaranteed that your crew lived.

Great first post!
Now...........
FOASUST PLEASE!

Well I guess it's all been said here, and pretty well by some. A sad, sad tale and I wish that sweet lady, Claudene, had not lost her life.

I am not an offshore sailor but have owned a self-built house boat for many years and weathered some large blows. Hurricane Bob put about 20 sailboats on the shore in my Cape Cod harbor, I weathered it well. Since my vessel has tons of windage and no real maneuverability, I have few choices when a hurricane is forecast. The tactic for the houseboat community is to seek a sheltered location and put out as many shore lines and anchors as possible, get off and hope for the best. Why Captain Walbridge would not have done the same in New London, which I read is a protected harbor, seems exceedingly reckless. Alternative strategies would have been to sail up river on the Hudson or another waterway as someone mentioned. I was in Cold Spring NY last summer (near West Point), the hills surrounding the river are very high there and it looks as if it would make a fine hurricane hole.

Putting out to sea in a modern Navy destroyer versus a wooden replica sailing ship with a small, largely inexperienced crew are not analogous. Putting out to sea in the direction of Novia Scotia versus heading directly into the teeth of a gigantic, killer storm, into some of the most treacherous waters on the coast, are not analogous.

I think the comments about the radical alteration of the ballast configuration are certainly quite interesting, especially as to how concentration of the weight after the refit might have affected the stress on structural members, caused leakage and altered handling characteristics.

Whenever failure strikes, it is always interesting to ponder the degree to which we create our own misfortune versus the degree to which we may be victims of sheer bad luck. In this case it seems apparent the ships master made a monumental blunder, for which not only he paid heavily.

UnMaydaying=Bad

[Steam Flyer]

Whenever failure strikes, it is always interesting to ponder the degree to which we create our own misfortune versus the degree to which we may be victims of sheer bad luck. In this case it seems apparent the ships master made a monumental blunder, for which not only he paid heavily.

Great quote... but where are the tit pics, newbie?!?

I think at the point the USCG came out no pump short of something nuclear powered would have helped - the ship was half-submerged by then. Now if they had not "un-Maydayed" themselves the day before and got pumps THEN, they had a good chance of making it to port.

Hey! Nuclear-powered pumps... what a great idea... but I just had a thought, the USCG should have submarines instead of helicopters. Picture a sub that can dive right under a sinking vessel, have jackstands deploy from the upper hull, and then rise up slowly under the distressed vessel. It wouldn't have to be a nuclear sub but it would make dropping pumps seem kinda quaint and feeble...

FB- Doug

[BrianM]

Doug - we've tried that...GREENVILLE, MONTPELIER.... guess we've got to work on the "rise up slowly" bit. We keep breaking either the sub or the ship - or both, usually.

From a friend of mine:

I'm on one of the few ships that did sortie. Weather for us wasn't really too bad (but the shore METOC folks had us go out to 1100 nm to the East before starting to turn around. If we had been faced with a MEDEVAC situation, we quite probably would have sprinted to the Azores....that is how far east we went. Really didnt' start seeing anything too rough until we turned around and started heading west.

We actually saw Bounty on AIS as we were running AWAY from the storm going ENE at 15 kts. She was heading toward the storm at about 8 kts. Too far away to reach on the radio. But alot of folks out here were scratching their heads.

[Thomas Point]

Picton Castle is out to sea, sailing to Florida from Canada
Bounty and Picton castle had the same deadline to get to St Petes by this weekend , Nov 10th 11th

from their website

http://www.picton-ca.../10/29/weather/

http://southshorenow.ca/


The Norwiegien tallship lauched in 1914 just made it into Norfolk this morning

During Sandy, she hung out SE of Bermuda

[ice9a]

Looking forward (rather than back), I think a key question the USCG investigation may look to answer is how many other vessels are in the rough sort of condition (sinking even at the dock) that Bounty was in, and what (if anything) the USCG should do about them?

My impression is that the current USCG Commandant is a regulatory activist - for instance wanting mandatory pfd wear everywhere at all times, and mandatory Epirbs on any vessel beyond 3nm. And that he does not much believe in industry self-regulation (not a strong supporter of ABYC for instance).

That could all lead to some difficult discussions with the wooden boat (schooners) and tall sheet fleets.

[mychael]

Hey! Nuclear-powered pumps... what a great idea... but I just had a thought, the USCG should have submarines instead of helicopters. Picture a sub that can dive right under a sinking vessel, have jackstands deploy from the upper hull, and then rise up slowly under the distressed vessel. It wouldn't have to be a nuclear sub but it would make dropping pumps seem kinda quaint and feeble...

FB- Doug

Forget the submarines, I think the USCG just needs a few heavy lift ships:

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/burke/images/burke1a.jpg

Probably not nearly as useful during a hurricane....

[U20guy2]

I have heard rumors two crew-members departed the vessel at the last port... citing the hurricane and other safety reasons for objecting to continue the voyage. If true... they were the lone voice of reason in this tradegy.

Many years ago I got on a race boat I was not familiar with in SF. Lots of little indicators that something was not right about our race status from SF to HMB. Owner showed up 30 minutes late - various deck gear on the bow showed signs of not working under load etc. We missed our start - then the fog rolled in and I knew the two horns on the GG bridge well enough that when a third horn showed up and my best guess was that we were just North of center channel that we had issues. I asked two other crew to listen for the third horn and help me sort out where it was compared to our location. I mentioned to the owner that I thought we might have a potential collision issue with a freighter. He blew me off about 3 minutes later out of the fog a huge freighter blew by us only about 12 boat lengths from us. I started asking questions about our race status and finally got it out of the owner that we were not registered. I told him in light of us missing the start we were not registered for and being in the shipping channel without any way of avoiding shipping traffic that he needed to turn the boat around. He did not deny this after the freighter nearly ran us down. Once back in the Bay he wanted to take us on a tour of the bay. I asked for the helm and took us back to the dock.

I ran into two of the crew many times after that day and they both told me that after that day the owner had not been out and had tried several times to round up crew.

It doesn't take years and years of experience to know when the boat or owner ie captain is way in over his head. No doubt there were probably at least two people who stepped off the boat and did not follow the captain in his bent logic to head into Sandy.

[Thomas Point]

Looking forward (rather than back), I think a key question the USCG investigation may look to answer is how many other vessels are in the rough sort of condition (sinking even at the dock) that Bounty was in, and what (if anything) the USCG should do about them?

My impression is that the current USCG Commandant is a regulatory activist - for instance wanting mandatory pfd wear everywhere at all times, and mandatory Epirbs on any vessel beyond 3nm. And that he does not much believe in industry self-regulation (not a strong supporter of ABYC for instance).

That could all lead to some difficult discussions with the wooden boat (schooners) and tall sheet fleets.

Very good point. Not just wooden boat (schooners) and tall sheet fleets.

I can see that at some point, BIg Brother will want to step in and regulate the hell out of everything, when there are incidents like the Long Island 4th of July capsize where children died, and this kind of incident where the Bounty website said that tall ship cruising was like camping, but without a tent.

[Dixie]

I have heard rumors two crew-members departed the vessel at the last port... citing the hurricane and other safety reasons for objecting to continue the voyage. If true... they were the lone voice of reason in this tradegy.

Many years ago I got on a race boat I was not familiar with in SF. Lots of little indicators that something was not right about our race status from SF to HMB. Owner showed up 30 minutes late - various deck gear on the bow showed signs of not working under load etc. We missed our start - then the fog rolled in and I knew the two horns on the GG bridge well enough that when a third horn showed up and my best guess was that we were just North of center channel that we had issues. I asked two other crew to listen for the third horn and help me sort out where it was compared to our location. I mentioned to the owner that I thought we might have a potential collision issue with a freighter. He blew me off about 3 minutes later out of the fog a huge freighter blew by us only about 12 boat lengths from us. I started asking questions about our race status and finally got it out of the owner that we were not registered. I told him in light of us missing the start we were not registered for and being in the shipping channel without any way of avoiding shipping traffic that he needed to turn the boat around. He did not deny this after the freighter nearly ran us down. Once back in the Bay he wanted to take us on a tour of the bay. I asked for the helm and took us back to the dock.

I ran into two of the crew many times after that day and they both told me that after that day the owner had not been out and had tried several times to round up crew.

It doesn't take years and years of experience to know when the boat or owner ie captain is way in over his head. No doubt there were probably at least two people who stepped off the boat and did not follow the captain in his bent logic to head into Sandy.

Very much off topic, but I think I was out there that same year on board a different boat in near-about the same spot, with similar concerns about preparation.

What I've been thinking about in all of this, was what a few have well captured in this thread. This boat wasn't lost when they cast off their lines, it was lost well before. It is about preparation, preparation preparation. Even one the least experienced expressed grave concerns about the boat's preparedness before they left. And while she did sail with the Bounty, she sadly didn't make it through the journey alive.

[just cuz]

Looking forward (rather than back), I think a key question the USCG investigation may look to answer is how many other vessels are in the rough sort of condition (sinking even at the dock) that Bounty was in, and what (if anything) the USCG should do about them?

My impression is that the current USCG Commandant is a regulatory activist - for instance wanting mandatory pfd wear everywhere at all times, and mandatory Epirbs on any vessel beyond 3nm. And that he does not much believe in industry self-regulation (not a strong supporter of ABYC for instance).

That could all lead to some difficult discussions with the wooden boat (schooners) and tall sheet fleets.

To me, this is why this conversation is important. Like mentioned before, my fear (beyond more needless deaths) in all this is that either the Coast Guard regulates, or the insurance companies price the industry out of business. We've already seen more ridiculous regulations placed on sailing passenger vessels thanks to the Kiele V incident off Maui (another captain that lived in fantasy world about the capability of his vessel). There are plenty of regulations in place already. What's the saying? "You can't fix stupid." Something like that anyway. Let the sailing community condemn this and make it clear that it is not the standard in the industry. Maybe we'll have a chance at escaping more needless rules.

[bert s]

One USCG inspector told me that all of the reg's were written in blood. Doesn't mean that the people writing the rules know anything about the industry that they are regulating i.e. the solution may be worse than the problem it is designed to fix. Darwin tends to sort things out.

[Seren]

Hey! Nuclear-powered pumps... what a great idea... but I just had a thought, the USCG should have submarines instead of helicopters. Picture a sub that can dive right under a sinking vessel, have jackstands deploy from the upper hull, and then rise up slowly under the distressed vessel. It wouldn't have to be a nuclear sub but it would make dropping pumps seem kinda quaint and feeble...

FB- Doug

Forget the submarines, I think the USCG just needs a few heavy lift ships:

Hmmm...
Helo speed = ~200mph ??? Submarine/rescue ship = ~20 mph?
By the time the submarine/rescue ship get there, the sinking boat is already at the bottom of the ocean!

[Dixie]

For those still interested and following, the Bounty crew have evidently convened in Florida and are due to be on Good Morning America at 0730 tomorrow (11/6). Someone on the East Coast could record it for youtube, perhaps?

[Kraftwerk]

Well I guess it's all been said here, and pretty well by some. A sad, sad tale and I wish that sweet lady, Claudene, had not lost her life.

I am not an offshore sailor but have owned a self-built house boat for many years and weathered some large blows. Hurricane Bob put about 20 sailboats on the shore in my Cape Cod harbor, I weathered it well. Since my vessel has tons of windage and no real maneuverability, I have few choices when a hurricane is forecast. The tactic for the houseboat community is to seek a sheltered location and put out as many shore lines and anchors as possible, get off and hope for the best. Why Captain Walbridge would not have done the same in New London, which I read is a protected harbor, seems exceedingly reckless. Alternative strategies would have been to sail up river on the Hudson or another waterway as someone mentioned. I was in Cold Spring NY last summer (near West Point), the hills surrounding the river are very high there and it looks as if it would make a fine hurricane hole.

Putting out to sea in a modern Navy destroyer versus a wooden replica sailing ship with a small, largely inexperienced crew are not analogous. Putting out to sea in the direction of Novia Scotia versus heading directly into the teeth of a gigantic, killer storm, into some of the most treacherous waters on the coast, are not analogous.

I think the comments about the radical alteration of the ballast configuration are certainly quite interesting, especially as to how concentration of the weight after the refit might have affected the stress on structural members, caused leakage and altered handling characteristics.

Whenever failure strikes, it is always interesting to ponder the degree to which we create our own misfortune versus the degree to which we may be victims of sheer bad luck. In this case it seems apparent the ships master made a monumental blunder, for which not only he paid heavily.

This guy read the whole thread and made an intelligent comment and no one welcomes him? Where are your manners, people?

Agreed..... welcome.

[Tom Ray]

Not like that, Kraftwerk! Now you and Crunch both need to FO and show us some hooters.

[mistermizu]

Today's GMA link (survivors)

http://gma.yahoo.com...Y3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

[mistermizu]

The text from GMA suvivors story:

"Crew members from the HMS Bounty, who were rescued as the tall ship sank of the coast of North Carolina last week, are speaking for the first time about their experience as they weathered Hurricane Sandy and the loss of two of their crew mates.
The dramatic sinking of the Bounty and harrowing rescue of its crew last Monday created some of the most enduring images during Hurricane Sandy. In an ABC News exclusive, the ship's 14 surviving crew members are opening up about their rescue after they tried to weather the storm.
They described the chaos as they abandoned ship and the Bounty was slammed by a giant wave. The 14 survivors, still together a week after the disaster, are still chiefly concerned with honoring those who didn't make it -- their captain, Robin Wallbridge, and deckhand Claudine Christian.
For first mate John Svendsen the call to abandon ship was one of the toughest he'd ever made.
"We determined a safe time when we knew the ship would still be stable and we could get everyone on deck and change our focus from saving the ship to saving every life," said Svendsen, who credits Capt. Wallbridge's endless drills and preparation for the 14 lives that were saved.
But the ship's leadership lost all control once a giant wave broadsided the ship, knocking some of the crew -- already in their survival suits -- into the roiling sea.
"It was [like a] washing machine in an earthquake … while going down a giant slide," crewmember Laura Groves told ABC News.
The crew says their unexpected adventure began on October 25, as the ship set sail from Connecticut. Captain Wallbridge wrote on Facebook that with Hurricane Sandy on the move, "a ship is safer at sea than in port." But three days into the voyage, the crew found themselves in the middle of the ferocious storm, with heaving waves three stories high.
"The weather was so bad and we had so little control," said Douglas Faunt.
"It took every ounce of my strength to focus through to survive," said first mate Svendsen.
Winds were tearing at the crew at 70 mph, and by the fourth day the ship, which was constructed for the 1962 film "Mutiny on the Bounty" and later featured in "Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest," had been taking on water for 24 hours.
Crew members on the Bounty had trained for rough weather countless times, they said.
"We been through two other hurricanes," Daniel Cleveland said. "We were literally launching the life rafts, and she went over."
The ship was thrown on its side, tossing crew members into the waves. They wore red survival suits designed to help them float.
"At that moment I couldn't be sure who the red suits were around me," Cleveland said.
Hours after being thrown into the water and clambering into the life rafts, they began to hear the beating rotors of Coast Guard helicopters. But they were far from safe, with the weather uncertain and one of the most daring Coast Guard rescues in memory underway.
"When the helicopters showed up, I think everyone in the life raft just started hooting and hollering," Cleveland said.
Suddenly a Coast Guard rescue swimmer launched himself from a chopper and swam toward them -- popping his head into their raft and heaving himself in.
"I was immediately filled with a huge sense of relief, and he asked, 'Who's ready to get out of here?' And we were all about to say 'Yeah,' and then the raft just gets crushed with this wave and knocks him pretty good," said Cleveland.
Svendsen was the only survivor not in a raft. He swam to a floating beacon, which had been devised by Capt. Wallbridge.
"So I give my life to Robin, and to his ingenuity, to his leadership, that I'm here today," Svendsen said.
Those who were pulled out alive had no idea who else had survived.
"When we got up there everybody cheered each time we saw a new face come into that helicopter," Joshua Scornavacchi said.
But not everyone made it home. Claudine Christian was one of the Bounty's newest crew members, and was already part of the ship's family.
"She was having the most fun ever on the best ride ever. She was so happy," Doug Faunt said.
Christian's last text to her mother read, "If I do go down with the ship & the worst happens… just know that I am truly genuinely happy!!"
The Coast Guard found her body hours later, and couldn't revive her. The body of Capt. Wallbridge has not been recovered. For the 14 who made it survival is bittersweet.
"[I'm} going to miss them the rest of my life," said Faunt, wiping away tears.
Today the entire surviving crew is still mourning and in shock, but grateful.
"After this, I'm never going to have another bad day in my life," said Faunt, and the rest of the 13 survivors nodded."

[Ticonderoga33]

Today's GMA link (survivors)

http://gma.yahoo.com...Y3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

"Survivors Speak on Sandy Ship Sinking"
more accurately: "GMA Speaks on Survivors Speaking on Sandy Ship Sinking"...

[K38BOB]

For those still interested and following, the Bounty crew have evidently convened in Florida and are due to be on Good Morning America at 0730 tomorrow (11/6). Someone on the East Coast could record it for youtube, perhaps?

Story and video of Bounty crew on Good Morning America
http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=17650072

[nolatom]

One USCG inspector told me that all of the reg's were written in blood. Doesn't mean that the people writing the rules know anything about the industry that they are regulating i.e. the solution may be worse than the problem it is designed to fix. Darwin tends to sort things out.

I heard that one too, way back in my trainee-inspector days. "Written in blood" examples given were:

Boiler explosions on overloaded riverboats = Steamboat Inspection Service formed (later blended into the Coast Guard)

Capt Slocum tour boat fire off NYC = better inspection of fire hoses, lifejackets

Titanic = full-height bulkheads, enough lifeboats for all, International Ice Patrol formed, 24-hour distress-call monitoring of radio and telegraph

Morro Castle fire off Asbury Park = fire-resistant construction/ materials for US-built vessels

Argo Merchant = new navigation safety regulations

OPA-'90 = phase out single-skin tankers

Amtrak/Mobile RR river bridge derailment after barge strike = regulation of river towboats, compasses and charts required


Many, many more. I wouldn't be surprised to see some come out of the Marine Board for the Bounty, re inspection of sailing-school and similar vessels, what's a "passenger" versus crew, new (or revised) watertight subdivision, pump, etc requirements, depending on facts found in this or any similar marine casualties.


I guess we may ask why the regs are reactive rather than forward-looking, but historically it takes a very "public" tragedy to justify further regulation.

The Coast Guard does have a regulatory arrow in its quiver called "manifestly unsafe voyage" restrictions, but they are typically reluctant to use it absent a truly suicidal-looking boat or voyage.

[Canal Bottom]

Please add... After Bounty and Sandy match up.... all skippers must tell everyone where they are going and gain federal government permission before they leave the dock.

One USCG inspector told me that all of the reg's were written in blood. Doesn't mean that the people writing the rules know anything about the industry that they are regulating i.e. the solution may be worse than the problem it is designed to fix. Darwin tends to sort things out.

I heard that one too, way back in my trainee-inspector days. "Written in blood" examples given were:

Boiler explosions on overloaded riverboats = Steamboat Inspection Service formed (later blended into the Coast Guard)

Capt Slocum tour boat fire off NYC = better inspection of fire hoses, lifejackets

Titanic = full-height bulkheads, enough lifeboats for all, International Ice Patrol formed, 24-hour distress-call monitoring of radio and telegraph

Morro Castle fire off Asbury Park = fire-resistant construction/ materials for US-built vessels

Argo Merchant = new navigation safety regulations

OPA-'90 = phase out single-skin tankers

Amtrak/Mobile RR river bridge derailment after barge strike = regulation of river towboats, compasses and charts required


Many, many more. I wouldn't be surprised to see some come out of the Marine Board for the Bounty, re inspection of sailing-school and similar vessels, what's a "passenger" versus crew, new (or revised) watertight subdivision, pump, etc requirements, depending on facts found in this or any similar marine casualties.


I guess we may ask why the regs are reactive rather than forward-looking, but historically it takes a very "public" tragedy to justify further regulation.

The Coast Guard does have a regulatory arrow in its quiver called "manifestly unsafe voyage" restrictions, but they are typically reluctant to use it absent a truly suicidal-looking boat or voyage.

[BrianM]

In an effort to clear some errors in this thread (like "Did she have an EPIRB?"), the following timeline offered from a very authoritative source.

290045Z OCT 12 – Initial notification HMS BOUNTY taking on water approx 90NM SE Cape Hatteras. (not sure what the comms path was)

290104Z – District 5 received initial SARSAT alert (EPIRB). Note: Not necessarily a sign of distress; Comms were spotty, BOUNTY was instructed to energize their EPIRB in order to fix their position. Rcvd e-mail msg from BOUNTY after EPIRB activation that they were not in immediate distress.

290405Z – USCG fixed wing aircraft on scene; initial tasking was to determine BOUNTY’s status and act as a comms platform.

290826Z – BOUNTY crew began to abandon ship. Up until this point BOUNTY had passed they were able to remain aboard until first light. (non authoritative reports say water gaining 2 feet / hour, crew abandoned ship with 6 feet on deck)

290857Z – Fixed wing spotted wreckage and 2 life rafts.

291041Z - First helo arrived O/S, commenced hoisting survivors.

291127Z – Two helos working, reported 2 crew members unaccounted for.

292038Z – Helo recovered 1 person unresponsive .

[Canal Bottom]

Skip the hurricane forecast.... should this crew have ever left the dock to sail a 180 foot vessel built in the 60's? A quick read of The Bounty website note the boat policy was "first come, first serve" for volunteer crew positions? Imagine this group handling a summer squall during a wednesday night race?

[Canal Bottom]

In an effort to clear some errors in this thread (like "Did she have an EPIRB?"), the following timeline offered from a very authoritative source.

290045Z OCT 12 – Initial notification HMS BOUNTY taking on water approx 90NM SE Cape Hatteras. (not sure what the comms path was)

290104Z – District 5 received initial SARSAT alert (EPIRB). Note: Not necessarily a sign of distress; Comms were spotty, BOUNTY was instructed to energize their EPIRB in order to fix their position. Rcvd e-mail msg from BOUNTY after EPIRB activation that they were not in immediate distress.

290405Z – USCG fixed wing aircraft on scene; initial tasking was to determine BOUNTY’s status and act as a comms platform.

290826Z – BOUNTY crew began to abandon ship. Up until this point BOUNTY had passed they were able to remain aboard until first light. (non authoritative reports say water gaining 2 feet / hour, crew abandoned ship with 6 feet on deck)

I have read several reports that the first USCG notice was a phone call from the land office reporting loss of contact during the storm. Then EPIRB.... What is in this girls hand?




During the TV interview the survivors each claim stuffing a "souvenir" inside their survival suits. For the record, I have never but on a survival suit during an actual event at sea, I have never abandoned ship and never been rescued by the coast guard at sea. For those that have or can imagine such a scene in a hurricane or gail. Would you stop to load up on souvenirs? Passport or Wallet maybe....
/
Any way I look at it this was a different bunch and leadership. Did anyone pack any souvenirs off Rambler? Oracle?


290857Z – Fixed wing spotted wreckage and 2 life rafts.

291041Z - First helo arrived O/S, commenced hoisting survivors.

291127Z – Two helos working, reported 2 crew members unaccounted for.

292038Z – Helo recovered 1 person unresponsive .

[Ticonderoga33]

Skip the hurricane forecast.... should this crew have ever left the dock to sail a 180 foot vessel built in the 60's? A quick read of The Bounty website note the boat policy was "first come, first serve" for volunteer crew positions? Imagine this group handling a summer squall during a wednesday night race?

In an effort to clear some errors in this thread (like "Did she have an EPIRB?"), the following timeline offered from a very authoritative source.

290045Z OCT 12 – Initial notification HMS BOUNTY taking on water approx 90NM SE Cape Hatteras. (not sure what the comms path was)

290104Z – District 5 received initial SARSAT alert (EPIRB). Note: Not necessarily a sign of distress; Comms were spotty, BOUNTY was instructed to energize their EPIRB in order to fix their position. Rcvd e-mail msg from BOUNTY after EPIRB activation that they were not in immediate distress.

290405Z – USCG fixed wing aircraft on scene; initial tasking was to determine BOUNTY’s status and act as a comms platform.

290826Z – BOUNTY crew began to abandon ship. Up until this point BOUNTY had passed they were able to remain aboard until first light. (non authoritative reports say water gaining 2 feet / hour, crew abandoned ship with 6 feet on deck)

I have read several reports that the first USCG notice was a phone call from the land office reporting loss of contact during the storm. Then EPIRB.... What is in this girls hand?




During the TV interview the survivors each claim stuffing a "souvenir" inside their survival suits. For the record, I have never but on a survival suit during an actual event at sea, I have never abandoned ship and never been rescued by the coast guard at sea. For those that have or can imagine such a scene in a hurricane or gail. Would you stop to load up on souvenirs? Passport or Wallet maybe....
/
Any way I look at it this was a different bunch and leadership. Did anyone pack any souvenirs off Rambler? Oracle?


290857Z – Fixed wing spotted wreckage and 2 life rafts.

291041Z - First helo arrived O/S, commenced hoisting survivors.

291127Z – Two helos working, reported 2 crew members unaccounted for.

292038Z – Helo recovered 1 person unresponsive .

i have never had to put on a survival suit during an actual emergency at sea. i have, however practiced putting them on, and have been drilled on multiple occasions on proper stowage, care, etc of these suits. in an actual emergency, i can imagine time is of the essence and it is crucial that you get that zipper ALL THE WAY up and do nothing that would compramise its watertight capabilities or potentially stress or damage the suit... it would absolutely NOT cross my mind to start stuffing items into my suit other than the plastic bags you're meant to wrap around your feet...

[ice9a]

Pretty clearly an ACR Epirb. Smart girl - I would want to be the one holding it too.

What is in this girls hand?

[phillysailor]

In my opinion, 14 survivors from a crew of 16 from a ship which sank in the midst of a hurricane off Cape Hatteras in the month of November is amazing. Obviously, the Coast Guard deserves credit for the rescue, but the fact that there were any survivors at all means other factors were also at work.

I'd like to see a list a few of the things the Owners, Captain and Crew did RIGHT, so I can learn a bit more from this event. Perhaps it doesn't belong in a "Trash the Bounty" thread, but here goes:

1. Redundant comms (EPIRB, email, I think I've read VHF communication was unsuccessful) enabled rapid location by CG
2. Float plan was filed with shore crew who were actively involved with CG efforts
3. Survival suits were available for the crew, who were trained in their use, and who put them on in a hurricane on a ship that was actively sinking beneath their feet
4. Two life rafts of adequate capacity were available, functional, and were successfully deployed and utilized during a hurricane
5. An additional "locator beacon" for crew separated from a raft was available, and was successfully deployed and used
6. A decision to abandon ship was made in a timely fashion. If anyone can claim to have "stepped UP into the liferaft" it was this crew
7. The crew had a hierarchy, and operated within that structure
8. The crew stayed together in the water, making rescue that much more likely and greatly facilitating rescue efforts

[stranded]

+1

no argument with the above

It is what happened before, resulting in the above that concerns me

[Thomas Point]

+1

no argument with the above

It is what happened before, resulting in the above that concerns me

+1


I think the good captain was fooled by the Cat 1 designation. He didn't realize that the size of the hurricane made it a whole different animal. No way to get around.

[kent_island_sailor]

The crew did superbly when it came time to abandon ship. That part was fine. Too bad they set out on a voyage where the odds were near 100% they would need to. I am actually impressed they even HAD decent survival gear, given the state of the rest of the ship.

As for comms, AFAIK the only thing working was WinLink email (ham radio). They had no luck with HF or VHF voice.

* I am a little surprised at how the one girl died in her gumby suit. In warm Gulf Stream water I think I could swim around all day in my spring weight wetsuit. Did the waves just pound her to death or ???

[Rail Meat]

The crew did superbly when it came time to abandon ship. That part was fine. Too bad they set out on a voyage where the odds were near 100% they would need to. I am actually impressed they even HAD decent survival gear, given the state of the rest of the ship.

As for comms, AFAIK the only thing working was WinLink email (ham radio). They had no luck with HF or VHF voice.

* I am a little surprised at how the one girl died in her gumby suit. In warm Gulf Stream water I think I could swim around all day in my spring weight wetsuit. Did the waves just pound her to death or ???

Complete speculation, but my guess is that she probably inhaled too much sea water. One flaw most (all?) gumby suits have is that they don't have a particularily good sytem to protect the mouth and nose from wave and airborne water. They could use something like the hoods on the Spinlock vest.

[Canal Bottom]

The crew did superbly when it came time to abandon ship. That part was fine. Too bad they set out on a voyage where the odds were near 100% they would need to. I am actually impressed they even HAD decent survival gear, given the state of the rest of the ship.

As for comms, AFAIK the only thing working was WinLink email (ham radio). They had no luck with HF or VHF voice.

* I am a little surprised at how the one girl died in her gumby suit. In warm Gulf Stream water I think I could swim around all day in my spring weight wetsuit. Did the waves just pound her to death or ???

Complete speculation, but my guess is that she probably inhaled too much sea water. One flaw most (all?) gumby suits have is that they don't have a particularly good system to protect the mouth and nose from wave and airborne water. They could use something like the hoods on the Spinlock vest.

Direct quotes from the crew note they were all dumped in a roll during the planning and staging process to get off the boat and into the rafts. There are also direct quotes and video where crew members report they where near exhaustion and surrender to the sea.

[islanderboy32]

As is my habit on SA, been lurking on this thread. Bittersweet to read again about the Fantome and her sinking in 98. I spent a year working for Captain Mike Burke at Windjammer in the late 70's, mostly on the Fantome. Went through some violent weather a few times, including a 36 hour stretch of 45k wind and 20-25' waves. It was almost impossible to manage the boat in those winds. I still wonder how we made it then, given the overall condition of the Fantome. As Mistermizu and a number of others here have said, leaving the dock was the decision that killed both the entire crew of the Fantome, and the 2 on the Bounty. Mistakes cascade, and forethought and planning not done is fatal. All you had to know was the top speed of the boat given the conditions (low single digits in both cases) and the possible top speed of the weather. What makes the Bounty worse is the incredible forecasting we have today. Kudos to DryArmour again, thanks for the early and loud warnings, you will never know how many you helped, and they will never know how much.

[Thomas Point]

Picton Castle on the move. Current location

http://www.picton-ca...t-location.html

If only the Bounty had waited. What was the rush anyway? I thought the idea was to enjoy the experience.

On the "big wave" that rolled them. I have read many books on sea disasters and rescues. Moitessier said that after the center of the storm has passed, always look out for the big waves that will come out of nowhere and get you. Maybe that is what happened.

[Canal Bottom]

Picton Castle on the move. Current location

http://www.picton-ca...t-location.html

If only the Bounty had waited. What was the rush anyway? I thought the idea was to enjoy the experience.

On the "big wave" that rolled them. I have read many books on sea disasters and rescues. Moitessier said that after the center of the storm has passed, always look out for the big waves that will come out of nowhere and get you. Maybe that is what happened.

I have not read anything about a "big wave"? What I have read and listened to crew audio on is the boat had an awfull lot of water in it. More water was coming in and they decided to get off. In that process the shipped rolled. At some point a boat full of water will roll at the dock.

[Canal Bottom]

For first mate John Svendsen the call to abandon ship was one of the toughest he'd ever made.
"We determined a safe time when we knew the ship would still be stable and we could get everyone on deck and change our focus from saving the ship to saving every life," said Svendsen,

"We been through two other hurricanes," Daniel Cleveland said. "We were literally launching the life rafts, and she went over."

"It was [like a] washing machine in an earthquake … while going down a giant slide," crewmember Laura Groves told ABC News.But the ship's leadership lost all control once a giant wave broadsided the ship, knocking some of the crew -- already in their survival suits -- into the roiling sea.

The ship was thrown on its side, tossing crew members into the waves. They wore red survival suits designed to help them float.
"At that moment I couldn't be sure who the red suits were around me," Cleveland said.
Actual Crew Audio including souvenir gathering....
http://abcnews.go.co...72#.UJqQB8U8DTp

[fastyacht]

http://static.dvidsh...66x274-300k.mp4

At 3:32, is that a PIW that I see in the upper right hand side of the view?

[ctutmark]

Even the Russian subs knew to get out of the way:

http://www.dailymail...cane-Sandy.html

[Canal Bottom]

http://static.dvidsh...66x274-300k.mp4

At 3:32, is that a PIW that I see in the upper right hand side of the view?

I can see it or him or her... You can also hear the pilot talk about the PIW.... There are two helo's and swimmers out there. The first officer also swam to some type of beacon?

[just cuz]

Skip the hurricane forecast.... should this crew have ever left the dock to sail a 180 foot vessel built in the 60's? A quick read of The Bounty website note the boat policy was "first come, first serve" for volunteer crew positions? Imagine this group handling a summer squall during a wednesday night race?

yeah, but just think... the combined total salary would be less than a dinner at a political fundraiser

[Canal Bottom]

http://static.dvidsh...66x274-300k.mp4

At 3:32, is that a PIW that I see in the upper right hand side of the view?

I can see it or him or her... You can also hear the pilot talk about the PIW.... There are two helo's and swimmers out there. The first officer also swam to some type of beacon?

At 8:50 ish you can see one or more orange items in the water? PIW?

[Boo-Yah]

http://static.dvidsh...66x274-300k.mp4

At 3:32, is that a PIW that I see in the upper right hand side of the view?

If you listen to the audio completely. It sounds like the two rafts were rolling and righting in the seas. At time "survivors" were being ejected from the rafts and the CG personnel are calling them out as PIW's between the crews and two helo's.

[Ticonderoga33]

Skip the hurricane forecast.... should this crew have ever left the dock to sail a 180 foot vessel built in the 60's? A quick read of The Bounty website note the boat policy was "first come, first serve" for volunteer crew positions? Imagine this group handling a summer squall during a wednesday night race?

yeah, but just think... the combined total salary would be less than a dinner at a political fundraiser

Whomp... put them on a couple of shields on Narragansett Bay, leave them up to their own devices, and observe the outcome....? (not my shields of course)

[bert s]

Just found out today that Claudine Christen is the sister of a co-worker. Bummer.

[kent_island_sailor]

Do you know if she really is a Bounty descendant?
Not expecting you to ask now of course, but maybe it came up??

Just found out today that Claudine Christen is the sister of a co-worker. Bummer.

[us7070]

http://static.dvidsh...66x274-300k.mp4

At 3:32, is that a PIW that I see in the upper right hand side of the view?

I can see it or him or her... You can also hear the pilot talk about the PIW.... There are two helo's and swimmers out there. The first officer also swam to some type of beacon?

At 8:50 ish you can see one or more orange items in the water? PIW?

some of those orange spots look more like a reflection or artifact, than someone in the water.

[Canal Bottom]

Do you know if she really is a Bounty descendant?
Not expecting you to ask now of course, but maybe it came up??

Just found out today that Claudine Christen is the sister of a co-worker. Bummer.

Did she look anything like this? With some Tahiti bloodlines mixed in?

The description Bligh wrote down for various port authorities after the mutiny:

[FLETCHER CHRISTIAN] Master’s mate, age 24 years, 5 feet 9 inches high, blackish or very dark complexion, dark brown hair, strong made; a star tatowed on his left breast, tatowed on his backside; his knees stand a little out, and he may be called rather bow legged. He is subject to violent perspirations, and particularly in his hands, so that he soils any thing he handles.

[JumpingJax]

For first mate John Svendsen the call to abandon ship was one of the toughest he'd ever made.
... [snip]

This comment, first reported some time back, has been bothering me: How does it fall to the first mate to call abandon ship? Shouldn't it be the captain making the call? Where was he? Good call, wrong caller. WTF?

[Canal Bottom]

The first mate also credited the Bounty Cult leader with the invention on the following.


Originally Posted by curtgetz
The "invention" that the first mate John describes in the video that saved his life was a weighted PVC pole with a radar reflector and light kept on the ready at the stern. (see photo) The device was much like what an offshore lobster fisherman will put at the end of his line of pots. Inside large plastic trashcan was kept a length of line with a light attached at its end that was secured to the weighted pole. Learning a lesson from the Picton Castle incident in which a woman was lost overboard a few years ago. The Bounty carried this man-over-board pole ready at the stern. Turing around a sailing tall ship is no easy, or quick task. This ingenious device could be jettisoned overboard while underway, and would give the ship a better target to return to and find someone in the water.

I took part in a man-over-board drill onboard the Bounty while sailing offshore. When the call "Man-Over-Board!" rang out the crew immediately launched the pole off the stern and then then lowered their zodiac boat while underway the others lined the rail as lookouts. The drill felt real as the crew called out " I can see him he is swimming to the pole" and "I see him he is there" all the lookouts pointing and calling out what they saw. I took part in no other drills while onboard the Bounty in May. The drill I witnessed was not planned but was done as a surprise, and the crew response was outstanding.

This device was ingenuous and in the end it saved a life!

[minch]

The first mate also credited the Bounty Cult leader with the invention on the following.


Originally Posted by curtgetz
The "invention" that the first mate John describes in the video that saved his life was a weighted PVC pole with a radar reflector and light kept on the ready at the stern. (see photo) The device was much like what an offshore lobster fisherman will put at the end of his line of pots. Inside large plastic trashcan was kept a length of line with a light attached at its end that was secured to the weighted pole. Learning a lesson from the Picton Castle incident in which a woman was lost overboard a few years ago. The Bounty carried this man-over-board pole ready at the stern. Turing around a sailing tall ship is no easy, or quick task. This ingenious device could be jettisoned overboard while underway, and would give the ship a better target to return to and find someone in the water.

I took part in a man-over-board drill onboard the Bounty while sailing offshore. When the call "Man-Over-Board!" rang out the crew immediately launched the pole off the stern and then then lowered their zodiac boat while underway the others lined the rail as lookouts. The drill felt real as the crew called out " I can see him he is swimming to the pole" and "I see him he is there" all the lookouts pointing and calling out what they saw. I took part in no other drills while onboard the Bounty in May. The drill I witnessed was not planned but was done as a surprise, and the crew response was outstanding.

This device was ingenuous and in the end it saved a life!

what, so like a danbouy- yeah, right, the Captain invented that idea.........

[Dixie]

^ my thoughts exactly.

[Canal Bottom]

The first mate also credited the Bounty Cult leader with the invention on the following.


Originally Posted by curtgetz
The "invention" that the first mate John describes in the video that saved his life was a weighted PVC pole with a radar reflector and light kept on the ready at the stern. (see photo) The device was much like what an offshore lobster fisherman will put at the end of his line of pots. Inside large plastic trashcan was kept a length of line with a light attached at its end that was secured to the weighted pole. Learning a lesson from the Picton Castle incident in which a woman was lost overboard a few years ago. The Bounty carried this man-over-board pole ready at the stern. Turing around a sailing tall ship is no easy, or quick task. This ingenious device could be jettisoned overboard while underway, and would give the ship a better target to return to and find someone in the water.

I took part in a man-over-board drill onboard the Bounty while sailing offshore. When the call "Man-Over-Board!" rang out the crew immediately launched the pole off the stern and then then lowered their zodiac boat while underway the others lined the rail as lookouts. The drill felt real as the crew called out " I can see him he is swimming to the pole" and "I see him he is there" all the lookouts pointing and calling out what they saw. I took part in no other drills while onboard the Bounty in May. The drill I witnessed was not planned but was done as a surprise, and the crew response was outstanding.

This device was ingenuous and in the end it saved a life!

Attached Files

•  hoisting flag.JPG   253.04K   165 downloads

[ice9a]

what, so like a danbouy- yeah, right, the Captain invented that idea.........

FWIW . . . yachting Danbouy's do NOT typically have radar reflectors. It may not be an 'invention' but its a good idea.

[kent_island_sailor]

It is a standard piece of gear on a fishing boat used to mark traps and nets. It IS a good idea to use a radar reflector on a MOB pole. Perhaps the wooden ship world is so insular they don't even know about the MOB gear carried on modern boats????

http://www.lindgren-...-reflector.aspx

http://www.lindgren-...r-assembly.aspx


OK - weird though I know - but is there some subliminal thing going on where the skipper - perhaps not consciously - KNEW all this emergency gear was going to get used someday.

[K38BOB]

It is a standard piece of gear on a fishing boat used to mark traps and nets. It IS a good idea to use a radar reflector on a MOB pole. Perhaps the wooden ship world is so insular they don't even know about the MOB gear carried on modern boats????http://www.lindgren-...-reflector.aspxhttp://www.lindgren-...r-assembly.aspxOK - weird though I know - but is there some subliminal thing going on where the skipper - perhaps not consciously - KNEW all this emergency gear was going to get used someday.

Wow..if that actually floats with pole straight up and down..it shows total ignorance of how those reflectors work optimally.

http://www.theradarr...gPassiveRTE.pdf

[Canal Bottom]

It is a standard piece of gear on a fishing boat used to mark traps and nets. It IS a good idea to use a radar reflector on a MOB pole. Perhaps the wooden ship world is so insular they don't even know about the MOB gear carried on modern boats????http://www.lindgren-...-reflector.aspxhttp://www.lindgren-...r-assembly.aspxOK - weird though I know - but is there some subliminal thing going on where the skipper - perhaps not consciously - KNEW all this emergency gear was going to get used someday.

Wow..if that actually floats with pole straight up and down..it shows total ignorance of how those reflectors work optimally.

http://www.theradarr...gPassiveRTE.pdf

what reflector?

[Canal Bottom]

With only 25 foot plus wave I wonder how all that water got in?

[ice9a]

what reflector?

 ap-superstorm-ship_001-x-large.jpg   17.99K   28 downloads

Wow..if that actually floats with pole straight up and down..it shows total ignorance of how those reflectors work optimally.

That photo is not very clear but it looks like the pole goes thru the 'catch rain' position. In any case, If you have ever crossed the gulf of Maine, where these are scattered all around by the fishing fleet, you would know they actually work just fine - in flat water. Like most passive reflectors they are not so much use when there is sea clutter (eg waves) around and they are rolling thru the reflector nulls

In any case, the thing was (apparently) useful in saving the life of the mate. So, I don't get what you are all going on about - criticizing one of the useful things they did/carried. They did enough things wrong.

[NautiGirl]

Listening to an interview with Capt Wallbridge's wife on CBC.
Her last communication from him was an email that they were abandoning ship. she heard he was missing from the news, as the Foundation had advised her that everyone was safe.
She said the crew was very experienced "seasoned sailors" except for Claudene.
From what she knows, it started with the pumps failing, followed by the generators failing and then the engine. She says that once they lost propulsion, they were sucked back into the storm.
When questioned about the wisdom of heading out, she said that he was an experienced Captain who could navigate around the storm, and if it wasn't for the failures, he would have, and in fact had, succeeded. She feels that unless the critics were there, they are in no position to judge.
She says that if it hadn't turned out the way it did, critics of the decision to leave port would now be saying "we like to chase hurricanes too".
When asked about the judgment to depart when he did, she said he was "not gambling with anyone's lives", and he was a "humble, gentle soul".

[K38BOB]

what reflector?

 ap-superstorm-ship_001-x-large.jpg   17.99K   28 downloads

Wow..if that actually floats with pole straight up and down..it shows total ignorance of how those reflectors work optimally.

That photo is not very clear but it looks like the pole goes thru the 'catch rain' position. In any case, If you have ever crossed the gulf of Maine, where these are scattered all around by the fishing fleet, you would know they actually work just fine - in flat water. Like most passive reflectors they are not so much use when there is sea clutter (eg waves) around and they are rolling thru the reflector nulls

In any case, the thing was (apparently) useful in saving the life of the mate. So, I don't get what you are all going on about - criticizing one of the useful things they did/carried. They did enough things wrong.

All I said (in reference to the product link) was that they were ignorant of optimal (proper) orientation of a corner cube reflector. Your comment about practical use reinforces that point (flat water). To my eye the Bounty's was not in "catch rain" orientation. Glad it helped enough though.

[JumpingJax]

Listening to an interview with Capt Wallbridge's wife on CBC.
Her last communication from him was an email that they were abandoning ship. she heard he was missing from the news, as the Foundation had advised her that everyone was safe.
She said the crew was very experienced "seasoned sailors" except for Claudene.
From what she knows, it started with the pumps failing, followed by the generators failing and then the engine. She says that once they lost propulsion, they were sucked back into the storm.
When questioned about the wisdom of heading out, she said that he was an experienced Captain who could navigate around the storm, and if it wasn't for the failures, he would have, and in fact had, succeeded. She feels that unless the critics were there, they are in no position to judge.
She says that if it hadn't turned out the way it did, critics of the decision to leave port would now be saying "we like to chase hurricanes too".
When asked about the judgment to depart when he did, she said he was "not gambling with anyone's lives", and he was a "humble, gentle soul".

An awkward attempt to protect the estate from a coming judgment or just plain denial. Or it's possible she doesn't know any better and insists on thinking the best of her late spouse. Not too important to anything substantive, tho. Sad.

[NautiGirl]

Probably a natural reaction to the loss of her husband, even though I disagree with most of her assertions.
I don't know any sailor who enjoys hurricane conditions. My better half delayed a delivery for 2 weeks because of the impending hurricane, and the follow up storm. Despite what she thinks, he absolutely gambled with lives, and lost.

Perhaps I've missed it in this thread, but is there truth to the claim that Claudene was significantly less experienced than the others?

[Canal Bottom]

Listening to an interview with Capt Wallbridge's wife on CBC.
Her last communication from him was an email that they were abandoning ship. she heard he was missing from the news, as the Foundation had advised her that everyone was safe.
She said the crew was very experienced "seasoned sailors" except for Claudene.
From what she knows, it started with the pumps failing, followed by the generators failing and then the engine. She says that once they lost propulsion, they were sucked back into the storm.
When questioned about the wisdom of heading out, she said that he was an experienced Captain who could navigate around the storm, and if it wasn't for the failures, he would have, and in fact had, succeeded. She feels that unless the critics were there, they are in no position to judge.
She says that if it hadn't turned out the way it did, critics of the decision to leave port would now be saying "we like to chase hurricanes too".
When asked about the judgment to depart when he did, she said he was "not gambling with anyone's lives", and he was a "humble, gentle soul".

An awkward attempt to protect the estate from a coming judgment or just plain denial. Or it's possible she doesn't know any better and insists on thinking the best of her late spouse. Not too important to anything substantive, tho. Sad.

Note this Captain had the practice of a first come, first serve volunteer crew. The type of crew, friends and cult member who would accept that the good captain invented the man overboard pole.

[Steam Flyer]

Probably a natural reaction to the loss of her husband, even though I disagree with most of her assertions.
I don't know any sailor who enjoys hurricane conditions. My better half delayed a delivery for 2 weeks because of the impending hurricane, and the follow up storm. Despite what she thinks, he absolutely gambled with lives, and lost.

... ...

I respect that she's standing up for her husband. Terrible situation to be in for her, sincere sympathy... I hope that my wife would speak up on my behalf if I had done something publicly condemned as stupid.

Perhaps the captain had been dependent on pumps & gensets to keep the Bounty afloat for so long that he was complacent about taking her to sea in that condition. It's sure that he felt economic pressure to get to their next commitment, at least some.

Going to sea at all is gambling with lives, but the key is to calculate the odds realistically.

FB- Doug

[Tom Ray]

Perhaps the captain had been dependent on pumps & gensets to keep the Bounty afloat for so long that he was complacent about taking her to sea in that condition.

I think that's it, and people are mistaking complacency for recklessness. It's reckless if you go out in a boat that's one pump failure away from sinking, but only if you think the pump might fail. People do sometimes trust boats that they have been around for a while to just keep going.

Watching that video, I agree with his wife that he seems a humble and gentle man. Kind of reminds me of one of my neighbors, who in turn reminds me of Father Mulcahy from M*A*S*H. Hard person to get angry at. Just sad.

[Cement_Shoes]

I think you are trying to draw too fine a line here. Recklessness can have many forms including complacency.

I think that's it, and people are mistaking complacency for recklessness. It's reckless if you go out in a boat that's one pump failure away from sinking, but only if you think the pump might fail. People do sometimes trust boats that they have been around for a while to just keep going.

[kent_island_sailor]

The fishing boat reflector poles would cost fisherman A LOT of money if they did not actually show up on radar. I think we can be assured they work fine or generations of fisherman would not use them to mark expensive gear.

The original Bounty would have had hand powered pumps and enough crew to man them 24/7. They at least would not have been one engine failure/short circuit away from death.

[Capt John]

http://www.cbc.ca/as...5470,2303846368

[kent_island_sailor]

She was a n00b

Perhaps I've missed it in this thread, but is there truth to the claim that Claudene was significantly less experienced than the others?

[K38BOB]

The fishing boat reflector poles would cost fisherman A LOT of money if they did not actually show up on radar. I think we can be assured they work fine or generations of fisherman would not use them to mark expensive gear.

The original Bounty would have had hand powered pumps and enough crew to man them 24/7. They at least would not have been one engine failure/short circuit away from death.

They probably have a lot skills in finding their gear that precedes radar that helps too. and GPS...and a string of faint returns (if they are in line like out here) is another aid to cut through clutter.

Different problem. Point stands they would work better if in catch rain position. You can orient yours as you like. cheers

[kent_island_sailor]

I never said "catch rain" was not BETTER. I used to sell Raytheon radar sets and we played with them and reflectors a lot. They most certainly do work straight up on a pole as shown. Also note many buoys have radar reflectors built in and they work too in the vertical position.
None of them work worth a crap when the wave height gets close to the reflector height. Ship's watch officers don't want to see a lot of sea clutter and play with the gain and sea clutter controls until it all goes away.

The fishing boat reflector poles would cost fisherman A LOT of money if they did not actually show up on radar. I think we can be assured they work fine or generations of fisherman would not use them to mark expensive gear.

The original Bounty would have had hand powered pumps and enough crew to man them 24/7. They at least would not have been one engine failure/short circuit away from death.

They probably have a lot skills in finding their gear that precedes radar that helps too. and GPS...and a string of faint returns (if they are in line like out here) is another aid to cut through clutter.

Different problem. Point stands they would work better if in catch rain position. You can orient yours as you like. cheers

[Remodel]

With only 25 foot plus wave I wonder how all that water got in?

I wonder if they shipped deadlights to prevent that very thing?

[Ryley]

Probably a natural reaction to the loss of her husband, even though I disagree with most of her assertions.
I don't know any sailor who enjoys hurricane conditions. My better half delayed a delivery for 2 weeks because of the impending hurricane, and the follow up storm. Despite what she thinks, he absolutely gambled with lives, and lost.

... ...

I respect that she's standing up for her husband. Terrible situation to be in for her, sincere sympathy... I hope that my wife would speak up on my behalf if I had done something publicly condemned as stupid.

Perhaps the captain had been dependent on pumps & gensets to keep the Bounty afloat for so long that he was complacent about taking her to sea in that condition. It's sure that he felt economic pressure to get to their next commitment, at least some.

Going to sea at all is gambling with lives, but the key is to calculate the odds realistically.

FB- Doug

I talked to someone who used to crew on the Bounty. He explained the pump system to me, and I may not get it exactly right. The pumps and engine room were essentially on the same level, and there were no bulkheads that would keep water from sloshing from one end of the bilge to the other.

Additionally, he said that any time they did a yard revolution involving any kind of plank work or ribs, they would spend days cleaning out the culch that accumulated from working with lumber - sawdust, scrap wood, everything. It took a full crew to do it, it was horrible work, and more often than not they wouldn't get it all and the first time they took on significant water (which was whenever they went out, really), the pumps would clog. they'd clean that out, and then they'd run the pumps again until they clogged again.

He said the last line of defense was a diesel pump with I believe a 4" pipe located just below the weather deck that was capable of dewatering the entire ship if necessary - however that depended on it getting started in the first place.

[Right Coast]

Listening to an interview with Capt Wallbridge's wife on CBC.
Her last communication from him was an email that they were abandoning ship. she heard he was missing from the news, as the Foundation had advised her that everyone was safe.
She said the crew was very experienced "seasoned sailors" except for Claudene.
From what she knows, it started with the pumps failing, followed by the generators failing and then the engine. She says that once they lost propulsion, they were sucked back into the storm.
When questioned about the wisdom of heading out, she said that he was an experienced Captain who could navigate around the storm, and if it wasn't for the failures, he would have, and in fact had, succeeded. She feels that unless the critics were there, they are in no position to judge.
She says that if it hadn't turned out the way it did, critics of the decision to leave port would now be saying "we like to chase hurricanes too".
When asked about the judgment to depart when he did, she said he was "not gambling with anyone's lives", and he was a "humble, gentle soul".

A bid sad, but understandable to want to defend him. I wouldn't expect anything different. After all, to be married to someone who exercised such questionable judgement, your judgement would have to be a little suspect as well.

[JumpingJax]

...[snip]....

I respect that she's standing up for her husband. Terrible situation to be in for her, sincere sympathy... I hope that my wife would speak up on my behalf if I had done something publicly condemned as stupid.
...[snip]....
FB- Doug

I'd really prefer that my wife show some good sense and not say anything at all, if either I was so wrong-headed or if she didn't know enough to make a rational and sensible defense.

[Steam Flyer]

...[snip]....

I respect that she's standing up for her husband. Terrible situation to be in for her, sincere sympathy... I hope that my wife would speak up on my behalf if I had done something publicly condemned as stupid.
...[snip]....
FB- Doug

I'd really prefer that my wife show some good sense and not say anything at all, if either I was so wrong-headed or if she didn't know enough to make a rational and sensible defense.

Yah, I can see that too.
In my case, Mrs Steam would be just as likely to trash a reporter as to speak up either way.


FB- Doug

[Steam Flyer]

Probably a natural reaction to the loss of her husband, even though I disagree with most of her assertions.
I don't know any sailor who enjoys hurricane conditions. My better half delayed a delivery for 2 weeks because of the impending hurricane, and the follow up storm. Despite what she thinks, he absolutely gambled with lives, and lost.

... ...

... ...
Perhaps the captain had been dependent on pumps & gensets to keep the Bounty afloat for so long that he was complacent about taking her to sea in that condition. ... ...

I talked to someone who used to crew on the Bounty. He explained the pump system to me, and I may not get it exactly right. The pumps and engine room were essentially on the same level, and there were no bulkheads that would keep water from sloshing from one end of the bilge to the other.

Additionally, he said that any time they did a yard revolution involving any kind of plank work or ribs, they would spend days cleaning out the culch that accumulated from working with lumber - sawdust, scrap wood, everything. It took a full crew to do it, it was horrible work, and more often than not they wouldn't get it all and the first time they took on significant water (which was whenever they went out, really), the pumps would clog. they'd clean that out, and then they'd run the pumps again until they clogged again.

He said the last line of defense was a diesel pump with I believe a 4" pipe located just below the weather deck that was capable of dewatering the entire ship if necessary - however that depended on it getting started in the first place.

That's a big pump but then those captain's gallery windows were a lot bigger. And as you say, it depends on geting it started. I would think a trash pump would be a good first line of defense since it would suck all the crud out and no hiccup... I have seen overalls & boots go thru a 3 inch trash pump on a farm.

Dewatering is a crucial component of seaworthiness, but so is keeping water out in the first place. Stability & downflooding are closely related; if the ship is one big open compartment then you get the free surface effect reducing stability dramatically just when you need more not less.

FB- Doug

[DRIFTW00D]

Dewatering. That is just the thing with wood boats, the dry free boards read shrunken will let water in as waves roll past OR the hull slowly goes down exposing more dry wood to let water in.

[moheen]

from http://www.insidenov...1a4bcf6878.html

Before the HMS Bounty sank, the tall ship was becoming Chris Barksdale’s home and his fellow crewmembers part of his family.
“When you’re together 24/7 like that, you become family relatively quickly,” said Barksdale, 56, of Nellysford. “We were all pretty close before the tragedy and we’re closer now.”
Barksdale was one of 14 crewmembers rescued about 90 miles off the coast of North Carolina, when the Bounty — a replica three-mast ship made for the 1962 movie “Mutiny on the Bounty” — went down Oct. 29 amid Hurricane Sandy. Two crewmembers died — the ship’s captain, Robin Walbridge, whose body was not found, and deck-hand Claudene Christian.
Barksdale paused a moment in his Nelson County mountain home Thursday morning before fondly describing the seasoned captain as a patient person who enjoyed mentoring future sailors on 19th century sailing techniques. Christian was vivacious and bubbly and always gave 110 percent, he recalled with a smile.
Barksdale’s experience on the Bounty is etched in his memory, both the good and trying times.
The ship had set sail from New London, Conn. on Oct. 25 en route to Florida when it crossed paths with Sandy a few days into the trip. The storm was not unexpected by the crew; Walbridge had called everyone on deck to tell them about the approaching hurricane before they left Connecticut, saying he would under-stand if people decided to get off the ship, Barksdale said.
Everyone stayed.
“Naturally I was a little hesitant about that, but [the captain] explained the situation and it seemed like he had a pretty good strategy,” Barksdale said. “We were going to try and get around the hurricane. Nobody knew that it was going to have the in-tensity and size it ended up having.”
Rough winds and waves shook the ship for about a day and a half. Crewmembers had to cling to parts of the Bounty or they would be thrown overboard.
Around midday Oct. 28, the crew noticed the ship was taking on more water than normal. Mechanical problems developed, including the failure of one of the main engines and the water pumps. The U.S. Coast Guard and the Bounty’s land office were alerted.
Conditions worsened later in the day. Crew members began pulling out immersion suits — used to keep them dry and warm in the water — and stuffing dry bags with rations in case the order came to abandon ship, Barksdale said.
Up until the early hours of Oct. 29, the crew’s priority was saving the ship.
Barksdale said while he knew they were in trouble, he thought they would be OK because of the crew’s training, experience and preparation.
“There was never any panic amongst anybody,” he said. “The crew knew what they needed to do; everybody was sticking together. Everybody was making sure that we were prepared.”
When the battered and sleep-deprived crew went on deck in the hours before dawn, waves continued to hammer the ship. The Bounty had taken on so much water she was almost on her side with her three masts in the ocean.“It became apparent that you didn’t have much choice, you were going in that water,” Barksdale said.
This was the last time Barksdale saw the captain and Christian.
Being in the water was the most frightening part for Barksdale, who would look up at the masts and rigging rising and falling toward him with the force of the 20-foot waves.
“That’s when I didn’t know if I was going to make it or not,” he said. “I had to break free of the rigging several times. The worst part was trying to get away from the ship.”
The limited flexibility in the immersion suits and the waves made it difficult for the crew to deploy the life rafts and climb aboard.
“I have no idea how long we were in the water,” he said. “It seemed like an eternity.”
Barksdale and five others managed to make it inside one of the two rafts, which hold 20 people. The other raft held a ma-jority of the remaining crew. While inside, waves continued to smack the crew, sending them to the other side of the raft. The Coast Guard’s helicopters provided a welcome soundtrack overhead. About 6:30 a.m., a Coast Guard rescuer dove into the waters and began pulling the Bounty’s crew to safety using a basket tethered to the helicopter. The basket spun in the 40 mph winds during the ascent.
“The character of a man that would jump in and have himself lowered into those seas and go swimming in those seas to rescue people he had never laid eyes on, there’s a lot to be said for him,” Barksdale said.
As the life raft began to empty and become lighter, the force from the helicopter’s blades flipped it, sending Barksdale and a few others back into the ocean as they awaited rescue.
After a rough ride up into the helicopter, Barksdale and his friends had a cramped two-hour flight to Elizabeth City, N.C. At the base they were given food, clothes and medical attention and learned the fate of their other crew members.
“I have the highest admiration for the Coast Guard and Red Cross,” Barksdale said.
Despite the traumatic experience, Barksdale is holding onto fond memories of his time with the Bounty. He smiled as he re-called celebrating crew members’ birthdays in Maine, where they were in a dry dock for the first three weeks of the voyage making repairs. “It was exciting,” he said. “I have a lot of admiration for the young men and women who were on there sailing and their knowledge and work ethic.”
Barksdale became a crew-member a few months ago, when his friend and the Bounty’s first mate, John Svend-sen, asked him to fill the engineer’s spot on the crew. Barksdale had declined last spring due to family and business obligations, but agreed this time thinking if he turned down his friend again, Svendsen would stop calling.
“It’s never been a great aspiration of mine [to sail a tall ship], but when the opportunity presented itself — not a whole lot of people get an opportunity to do something like that so I decided I was going to go for it,” he said.
As the engineer, Barksdale was responsible for the engines, electrical generation and water systems. He was with the crew for almost two months.
Barksdale has been around small boats for most of his life, but this was his first experience with a tall ship. Before setting sail, he received basic safety training and some instruction on climbing in the rigging.
He said he was drawn to the ship because he loves being on the water and wanted to learn more about sailing and tall ships.
“I’ve read about those things ever since I was kid, so just being able to get the opportunity to do that, just to learn the nautical terms themselves would have been something,” he said.
Barksdale said he is happy to be home, where he plans to relax and recoup from the emotion-ally and physically demanding experience.
“The first week and a half, every morning I woke up and it felt like somebody beat me with a two-by-four,” he said.
His life already has started re-turning to normal, with work calls coming in for his small business, Honey-Do Handyman. His clients and friends have sent cards, called and emailed since they heard about the Bounty.
“One of the great things about Nelson County is there are so many wonderful people out here who have given me a lot of love and support,” he said.
Barksdale’s experience on the Bounty hasn’t discouraged him from future adventures.
“If my friend John were to call me tomorrow I would pack my bags,” he said. “I’m not sure I’d leave tomorrow, but I’d pack my bags.”

[kent_island_sailor]

JFC YGTBFSM!
" Nobody knew that it was going to have the in-tensity and size it ended up having.”
Well no one that had no radio, telephone, internet, newspaper, or email maybe. So that excuses some yak herder in Outer Mongolia.

"Around midday Oct. 28, the crew noticed the ship was taking on more water than normal. Mechanical problems developed, including the failure of one of the main engines and the water pumps. The U.S. Coast Guard and the Bounty’s land office were alerted."


Now that is some STUNNING insight from what was the ship's "engineer" Reading between the lines, I kind of get the idea the "engineer" would have been challenged fixing an outboard.

[Icedtea]

Skip the hurricane forecast.... should this crew have ever left the dock to sail a 180 foot vessel built in the 60's? A quick read of The Bounty website note the boat policy was "first come, first serve" for volunteer crew positions? Imagine this group handling a summer squall during a wednesday night race?

None of them look like race winners to be sure...

[Foreverslow]

going through December issue Yachting magazine looking at what toys to purchase after hitting Powerball later this week, I see an ad for Bounty on page 77 for Northup & Johnson. Bad timing due to long lead times. :<(

One looks closely at that vessel and wonders what kind of an captain would take it straight into an 1100 mile storm that sunk a roller coaster..

[Dixie]

http://abcnews.go.co...ue#.UL0WsOOe-mc

Significantly more detail here. Quite tragic.

[Grrl Runnin the Pointy End]

The Weather Channel will have a program regarding the rescue of the Bounty crew on Wednesday night, Dec 5 at 8/7C

http://www.weather.c...nty-rescue/main

[Shibby]

http://www.dailymail...cane-Sandy.html

[quecatsofai]

BAD JUDGEMENT, FAULTY REASONING, THE WILLFULLY RECKLESS APPROACH OF SAILING VESSEL HMS BOUNTY WITH HURRICANE SANDY


by Jan Cameron Miles on Saturday, 1 December 2012 at 19:04 ·

December 1, 2012

AN OPEN LETTER

Dear Robin,

It has been a month now since the USCG stopped looking for you. Claudene is dead and BOUNTY, like you, is lost at sea as a result of your decision to sail directly towards Hurricane Sandy. Your action reminds me of the movie “Hunt for Red October”. I am thinking of that captain of the submarine hunting the other submarine. The captain on the hunt for the fleeing sub threw all caution away in his hunting effort. Why did you throw all caution away by navigating for a close pass of Hurricane Sandy? I was so surprised to discover that BOUNTY was at sea near Cape Hatteras and close to Hurricane Sandy Sunday night October 28th! That decision of yours was reckless in the extreme!

The outcome of your action makes you the only captain of the current crop of long experienced American maritime licensed sailing vessel masters’ actually willing to voyage anywhere near a hurricane! Did you not remember the fate of the FANTOME? Like BOUNTY she was a slow, less than 10 knot capable vessel under engine power. Not fast enough to run out of range of the reach of Hurricane Mitch. Additionally the master of FANTOME had too much confidence in hurricane forecasting accuracy. Mitch made an unexpected left turn after consistent movement westward before slowing down to near stopped about the time FANTOME made her run eastward from Belize trying to escape Mitch. A stationary hurricane is nearly impossible to predict future motion. To the best of anyone’s knowledge (FANTOME was lost with all hands) Mitch ran right over her. You, on the other hand, maneuvered directly toward a very accurately forecast and steadily moving Hurricane Sandy with a slow moving vessel of wood construction, FANTOME was of metal. Also, BOUNTY is quite a bit smaller than FANTOME. Still you aimed all but directly at Sandy. That was reckless my friend! Was it wise or prudent to set off into the teeth of Sandy in BOUNTY? Did it make any sense at all? Virtually all of your professional friends and colleagues back here do not think so, not at all.

You told everyone you were going east around Sandy. But you did not even try to do so. Your track line indicates unequivocally a trail all but directly toward Sandy. When I heard east around was the strategy I immediately wondered about it. I am not the only one to know that BOUNTY is not highly powered with her engines. You yourself are publicly recorded as saying BOUNTY is under powered. Looking at weather conditions east of Long Island for Friday October 26 it is clear there were northeast winds. They were not strong winds...near 5-10 knots at the buoy 50 miles SE of Nantucket with a slight sea of between 1-2 feet. But windage of any sailing vessel under auxiliary power is significant. A full-rigged ship has a whole lot more windage. 5 knots of boat speed into 10 knots of wind means a lot of drag slowing BOUNTY down...maybe with the underpowered engines BOUNTY could barely reach 5 knots of boat speed? Saturday Oct. 27 at the buoy wind had increased to around 15 knots NExE and sea had increased to around 3-4 feet. With staysails set and motor-sailing what would BOUNTY have been steering? Maybe something south of true East? What kind of speed would BOUNTY have made? On Sunday Oct. 28 wind had jumped to 30-35 knots NExE and the sea was up around 12 feet and building. Considering those big bluff bows of BOUNTY and massive windage in her rigging you probably decided to abandon the "go east around Sandy" strategy long before even trying it out because of the increasingly slow progress BOUNTY would eventually be making with ever increasing winds and swell from the northeast plus the knowledge the wind would eventually veer to east and on toward southeast as Sandy moved north forcing BOUNTY to turn southward and even southwestward and that would be back toward Sandy. You may also have still been doubtful of Sandy actually turning NW. Considering Sandy did go toward land rather than toward sea, had you tried to go eastward as you originally intended with any kind of will, BOUNTY might have wound up pretty far away from Sandy’s center, but the storm was so big you might actually have met conditions somewhat similar to what you actually met by heading straight toward Sandy. Having to abandon BOUNTY well out to the eastward would likely have been at a location somewhat further away from rescue assets than you actually were. So, ironically, it may actually have been fortunate for your crew that you did not try to go eastward.

An even more distressing puzzle is brought forth by BOUNTY’s steady movement directly at Sandy after you had abandoned your original notion of going east around. Friday Oct. 26 forecasting confirmed an even higher confidence Hurricane Sandy would turn left after some more time going north. But BOUNTY continued straight southward! Why did you not turn for New York Harbor? The light northeast flow I describe above was occurring all the way down past the mouth of the Delaware Bay. You could have gone way up the Hudson River. With the NE’rly wind behind BOUNTY is it likely speed might have been more than 5 knots on her way to New York? Alternatively, by my calculation, at 5 knots BOUNTY could have diverted toward Delaware Bay and gone up that bay and through the C & D Canal by late Saturday night. Wind in the Upper Chesapeake Bay Saturday night was light and variable with a forecast to increase from the NE overnight into Sunday before backing toward the north and continuing to increase overnight Sunday into Monday. At midnight Saturday northeast wind strength in Baltimore Harbor was actually 10 knots. Late Sunday wind had backed to north and increased to near 20 knots. If BOUNTY were in the Inner Harbor of Baltimore by early Sunday she would have been sheltered from wind by all of those tall city buildings that ring the north side of the Inner Harbor. There would have been no sea action. Harbor water levels did indeed increase above normal, but only by 3-4 feet. BOUNTY would not have floated over any dock. Even if she had, the damage would unlikely be the loss of the ship and certainly not the loss of any life!

So what was it you were thinking by not diverting toward shelter once you knew about the confirmed forecasting that not only continued to indicate Sandy going ashore in New Jersey but also Sandy would likely be the largest hurricane in some time? No slow boat was going to be speedy enough to get out of Sandy’s long reach from where BOUNTY was on Friday. Certainly resurrecting the "east around" strategy would be impossible now that the distance to Sandy had reduced bringing with the reduced distance soon to increase NE’rly winds, soon to start a steady veer through East. But a slow boat would have had time to get inshore from where BOUNTY was on Friday before Sandy’s strength was felt. Why did you persist in steering BOUNTY directly toward Sandy? Was it confidence in her physical strength after all of the rebuilding over the last several years? If that was the case, that is recklessly cavalier to the extreme! Not even the big powerful tug and barge combinations that regularly ply the East Coast were fooling around with facing Sandy! But you were. I find myself wondering again…What were you thinking?

On top of this, you told folks during the south bound journey directly toward Sandy that it was safer to be at sea. Hmmm...an interesting & vague notion that. It is true the US Navy in Norfolk goes to sea ahead of an approaching hurricane. But they are high endurance (high speed) ships with mariners trained and contracted to go in the way of danger, not young keen professionals & volunteers on an harbor attractions’ vessel!

I understand there might be two reasons for sending a navy fleet out. One is their wind resistance at the dock…and probably also concern for extra high water from storm surge. That wind resistance could play great havoc keeping the ships tied to the dock. Maybe wreck the pier by the pressure against the dock. Extra high water causes all kinds of concerns. The other reason is our nation’s security. A navy bottled up in port for a hurricane is not a navy able to provide for national defense. Meanwhile those navy ships have a lot of speed they are capable of. And they do not hang around at sea in the path of a hurricane. They keep going out to sea to get away from the rough seas that will be created by the approaching hurricane. Making 20 knots means they could be 480 nautical miles to the eastward in 24 hours. Something not possible with a smaller slow boat that departed closely ahead of Sandy with the idea of protecting itself from dock damage on the premise it would be safer instead to experience big seas as well big winds creating them. Now that is just plain illogical thinking! With a choice between suffering strong wind by being inshore while avoiding big seas verses being at sea with both big seas and strong winds you should have diverted Friday as soon as you got the updated weather forecasting confirming Sandy was going ashore in New Jersey.

Yeah, you were a reckless man Robin. I would not have continued to proceed as you did. Frankly, I do not know anyone with a lot of experience in large, slow (still faster than BOUNTY), strong, steel motor vessels like the powerful tug & barge combinations we see plying the East Coast would have considered heading toward a hurricane like you did with Sandy…not only forecast as going ashore rather than turning towards sea…but also described as a “storm of the century”. Those tug & barge operators would seek shelter inshore or not proceed to sea at all. I also do not know any sailing vessel masters that would head toward a hurricane as you did with hopes of negotiating a pass like two vessels meeting head-on. The tug & barge industry has a lot of reason to stay on schedule. Lots of money at stake with timely delivery. But it is even more money if there is significant damage from big seas. Plus, if the cargo is chemical or oil there is the cost and criminal consequences of a polluting spill. I cannot imagine there was any reason existing that would force BOUNTY to directly approach a hurricane. Loss of BOUNTY is so permanent. No more voyages after losing the ship…don’t you know!

But the loss of life is the most tragic. You not only lost your own, you lost that of Claudene’s. Hell man, the BOUNTY can be replaced. But why ever risk loss when it is so much more important not to risk a crew member’s life? Having BOUNTY remain in port, or seek port when it became evident Sandy was not going to turn eastward as most often hurricanes do, might have meant damage to BOUNTY, but unlikely any loss of life. If you found no dock willing to accommodate BOUNTY up the Delaware or in the Chesapeake Bay, put her in the mud and hang on. Doing that would mean no reason to fear sinking completely below water. Even if she were to roll on her side while aground she would not have sunk below the surface. Maybe she would have become a total loss, but the crew could remain sheltered in her hull, assuming there was no safe way to get off of her and ashore before high winds arrived. Putting BOUNTY aground for the winds of Sandy because of no dock option would have been a bold decision! Actually, I believe your request to get to a dock would not have been turned down. However, all of the above was avoidable by not going to sea at all. Your focus should have been the same focus of all of your East Coast sailing vessel contemporaries…not go to sea…rather get tied up in as safe a place as you could find…not waste time trying to gain some distance toward your intended destination.

Robin, for all of the experience you have, it was recklessly poor judgment to have done anything but find a heavy weather berth for your ship, rather than instead intentionally navigate directly toward Sandy with no thought given to deviate if the original plan of yours was not panning out. During the nineteen years you were master of BOUNTY you were the single reason she remained active. Under your command she went from being an aging wooden vessel with all of the typical problems age brings to a vessel, to a reviving vessel as a result of several significant re-buildings over the last several years. You were a hero in everyone's eyes. Deservedly so I will freely add!!! I so respected your even, steady persistence to celebrate what BOUNTY could be and as a result was becoming. After years of barely surviving coastal trips here in America, after significant rebuilding, you successfully managed two safe and productive European voyages. That success was surely destined for more voyages to ports thrilling throngs of public in love with BOUNTY's roll in Hollywood movies. But that future is gone now. Because you chose to do something that no one of your experience, and all those young professionals with less experience, several that sailed with you, would have done. Some might have sailed and diverted. Some might have sailed with the plan to get some distance south along the coast then duck inshore long before any real impact from Sandy would be felt. But most did not depart at all. They worked from the start locating as safe a harbor arrangement as could be figured out. Up there in Southern New England is the fine port of New Bedford with its storm dyke to protect the fishing fleet. Surely BOUNTY would have been welcomed? I cannot conjure any reason why your friends in New London would not have responded with welcome of shelter had you asked.

While there are many memories I have of conversing with you about things marine affecting what we do as masters of sailing vessels, we never discussed the topic of delivering on schedule as promised and the problems of failure to arrive as promised. This is coming oh so very much too late, but I feel compelled to share that during my many years as master of vessels, there has never been any pressure put on me to make sure promises of arrival were kept. What I was told is that safety was most important. Safety of the ship was desired. But safety of the crew was most essential. As a result I have been master aboard when I have had to inform the company the intended arrival would not occur as scheduled due to weather. Sometimes the weather concern involved a hurricane. Sometimes the concern was a cold front and resultant head winds or a typical mid latitude low passing by. The decision we were going to be tardy to the destination port had to do with risk of damage to the ship. Preventing ship damage most often meant there would be little to no additional risk of injury to the crew and in the case of an inspected vessel also the passengers. Yep, unlike BOUNTY, most of the sail training vessels in America are certified and inspected for underway activities; several in the American fleet are certified for ocean service. Those that are wood built are pretty strong. Yet they avoid hurricanes. Being tardy always meant there would be another opportunity in the future. With BOUNTY now gone, with you and Claudene as well, there is no future to share with Claudene, with you, with BOUNTY, for all of us…for everyone.

If confidence was the basis in your decisions, no ship is invulnerable. And in a career at sea one cannot avoid every gale or nasty storm – but you set out with the BOUNTY with whatever her strengths and weaknesses into the biggest one some of us have ever seen dominating the Western North Atlantic. Many stronger, faster ships than BOUNTY chose to stay in port for this one. What was your need?

Well my very recklessly cavalier friend. I cannot say I told you so. But I sure can say I am surprised! Not Robin! This stunt is so amateurish as to be off the scale! But stunning surprise of surprises! It is Robin! Heading directly at a hurricane in a small, slow boat. Instead of running and hiding...or not venturing out at all. You have provided everyone with a great deal of hurt and sadness and consternation as well a firestorm of gossip nearly full of blame and foolishness directed at the whole of our sailing community.

That is an inestimably be-damned legacy my friend.

Signed,

Jan C. Miles

[HHN92]

Haunting to see Turner Classic playing the 1962 Mutiny on the Bounty film, especially where she is battling a storm while trying to round Cape Horn the 'wrong' way.

[KiwiJoker]

BAD JUDGEMENT, FAULTY REASONING, THE WILLFULLY RECKLESS APPROACH OF SAILING VESSEL HMS BOUNTY WITH HURRICANE SANDY


by Jan Cameron Miles on Saturday, 1 December 2012 at 19:04 &middot;

December 1, 2012

AN OPEN LETTER

Dear Robin,

It has been a month now since the USCG stopped looking for you. Claudene is dead and BOUNTY, like you, is lost at sea as a result of your decision to sail directly towards Hurricane Sandy. Your action

Captain Miles has put into context all the issues I've been thinking about.

It is comment, not evidence, but it rings true. Good for him for speaking out.

[kent_island_sailor]

He could have saved a lot of writing effort and just posted:
W-T-F were you thinking!

[Aloha 27]

+1.

[Aloha 27]

USCG has scheduled the inquiry in Portsmouth VA, February 12-21.
http://www.uscgnews....-Bounty-sinking

[blackjenner]

http://www.outsideon...d.html?page=all

Good article.

[Jangles13]

Yep, I'm halfway through it now and came to post it...

Interesting bit of added info about the operation.

[Volume311]

So if Brando wouldn't have been such a bitch, all of this could have been avoided.