Jump to content


Waterline 45...worth considering?


  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#1 ultimategumby

ultimategumby

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:35 PM

Looking for any thoughts on this 1991 Waterline 45:

http://www.yachtworl...A/United-States

Looking to cruise the Puget Sound for now, but eventually looking to go further abroad (loop?). Will likely want to live aboard in Seattle. I've heard mostly good things regarding the quality of the build from Waterline, but this one needs some work. Any opinions on:

1) How do these actually sail?
2) I'm anticipating a nearly complete refit; if you were doing it, how would you go about it? Assuming you can't do it all at once for cost reasons, what order would you do it in? Any special insight as to what will most likely need replacing on this boat?
3) What do people think about the asking price?

#2 TeamGladiator

TeamGladiator

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts
  • Location:Portland, OR
  • Interests:Traveling to far away sailing venues and terrorizing the locals!

Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

Looking for any thoughts on this 1991 Waterline 45:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1991/Waterline-44-2292534/Seattle/WA/United-States

Looking to cruise the Puget Sound for now, but eventually looking to go further abroad (loop?). Will likely want to live aboard in Seattle. I've heard mostly good things regarding the quality of the build from Waterline, but this one needs some work. Any opinions on:

1) How do these actually sail?
2) I'm anticipating a nearly complete refit; if you were doing it, how would you go about it? Assuming you can't do it all at once for cost reasons, what order would you do it in? Any special insight as to what will most likely need replacing on this boat?
3) What do people think about the asking price?

Looked at. Didn't buy. Been on the market a LOOOOONG time.

#3 ultimategumby

ultimategumby

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 02 November 2012 - 08:44 PM

Yeah it has TG. The asking price has come down a bit, but it still seems a little high given the amount of work required. What kept you away from it?

#4 TeamGladiator

TeamGladiator

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts
  • Location:Portland, OR
  • Interests:Traveling to far away sailing venues and terrorizing the locals!

Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:10 PM

Price is a bit high and the cost of immediate needs (sails & interior cushions). Also didn't care for the layout so much. Essentially a "one-off" and resale and market value are tough to nail down.

Plus I can't sail that slow anymore.

#5 Five Guys Named Moe

Five Guys Named Moe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:12 PM

Lots of boats have been on the market for a long time. Some for a reason, others just lack buyers.

For a steel boat, get a good surveyor and a thorough ultrasound.

#6 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:17 PM

He built a good steel boat but he should have had the sense to hire a designer.

#7 ultimategumby

ultimategumby

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:38 PM

All good points. While I enjoy the challenge of "fixer" projects, I find myself agreeing with Mr. Perry and TG, and noting that my biggest hangup is the layout. That's pretty tough to change. The durability of steel remains attractive, even at the price of speed...If I want to FEEL fast I just get in the Laser ;) Appreciate the thoughts though. Probably going to pass for something that is easier to valuate and live on.

#8 blackjenner

blackjenner

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,573 posts
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:MrsBlack, Brigadoon, freedom

Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:39 PM

That boat has been sitting there almost two years. I walk by it all the time.

#9 Keith

Keith

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,714 posts
  • Location:Vancouver B.C.

Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:16 AM

I sailed onKhatsahlano a waterline 50, Vancouver to San Fran. Then later, a month in the sea of Cortez. Khatsahlano is a different design, and the interior was fitted out by her original owner and not the yard. She was a very well built steel boat, built in round bilge, and her builders had built many other steel boats.
At that time, I was really into steel sailboat designs, (A growing up in the north west coast thing), See if you can find a book called "Steel away" there may be some info about the waterline guys there, any how, I wanted to buy Khatsahlano, and was beaten to her by Mike, and I ended up a multihull sailor, (thank you! ENZA), but that's another story.

I used to stop at their shop, every time I was on Vancouver island, and loved to see their metal work 1st hand. Waterline was building the nicest round bilge steel boats on the west coast, at that time. There are a few around, and you would be best too try to find another owner to chat with if possible. Most were semi custom boats. Khatsahlano went on to circumnavigate, over many years, and returned to Vancouver. I do not know where she is now. You may be able to find some of their old cruising stories at "Bluewater Cruising Association". MIke and Kelly would often send in their adventures. http://bluewatercruising.org/

#10 Paps

Paps

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,015 posts
  • Location:Adelaide Australia

Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:28 AM

Whats wrong with the layout?

Pullman fwd, decent head, saloon OK, great galley and nav under the coach roof, dble quarter stb and storage/machinery port..............

It might not have the bells and whistles the US market has come to expect but its not bad with some extra storage filled in in a few places. The Vee groove paneling everywhere is a bit same same but thats not unfixable.

That said, yes the price is high.

Whats the second compression post/duct/tube thingy just aft of the mast?

#11 ultimategumby

ultimategumby

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 03 November 2012 - 05:45 PM

I sailed onKhatsahlano a waterline 50, Vancouver to San Fran. Then later, a month in the sea of Cortez. Khatsahlano is a different design, and the interior was fitted out by her original owner and not the yard. She was a very well built steel boat, built in round bilge, and her builders had built many other steel boats.
At that time, I was really into steel sailboat designs, (A growing up in the north west coast thing), See if you can find a book called "Steel away" there may be some info about the waterline guys there, any how, I wanted to buy Khatsahlano, and was beaten to her by Mike, and I ended up a multihull sailor, (thank you! ENZA), but that's another story.

I used to stop at their shop, every time I was on Vancouver island, and loved to see their metal work 1st hand. Waterline was building the nicest round bilge steel boats on the west coast, at that time. There are a few around, and you would be best too try to find another owner to chat with if possible. Most were semi custom boats. Khatsahlano went on to circumnavigate, over many years, and returned to Vancouver. I do not know where she is now. You may be able to find some of their old cruising stories at "Bluewater Cruising Association". MIke and Kelly would often send in their adventures. http://bluewatercruising.org/

Whats wrong with the layout?

Pullman fwd, decent head, saloon OK, great galley and nav under the coach roof, dble quarter stb and storage/machinery port..............

It might not have the bells and whistles the US market has come to expect but its not bad with some extra storage filled in in a few places. The Vee groove paneling everywhere is a bit same same but thats not unfixable.

That said, yes the price is high.

Whats the second compression post/duct/tube thingy just aft of the mast?



Keith, thanks for the heads up on the book. I found a copy for $6 and just ordered.

Paps, not sure what that post is...I'll have to look into it next time. Layout is just a personal thing...all the necessary components are there, I'd just change a few things around. But like I said before, this boat would require a LOT of work to get it where I want it (and significant work/investment to get sailing at all), so I'm not completely against the idea of a major interior renovation. Heck, I probably like working on the things almost as much as sailing.

I haven't completely ruled it out yet. Going to have a closer look

#12 tad

tad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 311 posts
  • Location:Flattop Islands

Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:50 PM

It's a 21 year old steel boat.....steel boats rust from the inside out. This one has foam sprayed insulation inside. Somewhere between the foam and the steel is a rusty spot (probably) or two......go find it.......

Original engine, Perkins parts are expensive. Standing rigging may be ready for replacement.

#13 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:01 PM

I agree with Tad. I always thought spraying the inisde of the shell with foam was suspect. I'd want to se every inch of the inside of the shell.

#14 TeamGladiator

TeamGladiator

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts
  • Location:Portland, OR
  • Interests:Traveling to far away sailing venues and terrorizing the locals!

Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:58 AM

I agree with Tad. I always thought spraying the inisde of the shell with foam was suspect. I'd want to se every inch of the inside of the shell.

Yep!

How do you know you have a problem before its to late?

#15 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:58 PM

Team:
I don't know and that's the problem. I think it would be an awful job to try and remove any of that foam. It was a popular way to build steel boats though. I did some design work for the Amazon guys in BC and they sprayed all their boats. They claimed it was impossible for water to get in between the foam and the steel. I was dubious. They were adamant. I had a pal with a steel 42'er built in Holland his worst rust was under the head where water had dripped for years.

#16 DFL1010

DFL1010

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 151 posts
  • Location:Falmouth, UK

Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:41 PM


I sailed onKhatsahlano a waterline 50, Vancouver to San Fran. Then later, a month in the sea of Cortez. Khatsahlano is a different design, and the interior was fitted out by her original owner and not the yard. She was a very well built steel boat, built in round bilge, and her builders had built many other steel boats.
At that time, I was really into steel sailboat designs, (A growing up in the north west coast thing), See if you can find a book called "Steel away" there may be some info about the waterline guys there, any how, I wanted to buy Khatsahlano, and was beaten to her by Mike, and I ended up a multihull sailor, (thank you! ENZA), but that's another story.

I used to stop at their shop, every time I was on Vancouver island, and loved to see their metal work 1st hand. Waterline was building the nicest round bilge steel boats on the west coast, at that time. There are a few around, and you would be best too try to find another owner to chat with if possible. Most were semi custom boats. Khatsahlano went on to circumnavigate, over many years, and returned to Vancouver. I do not know where she is now. You may be able to find some of their old cruising stories at "Bluewater Cruising Association". MIke and Kelly would often send in their adventures. http://bluewatercruising.org/

Whats wrong with the layout?

Pullman fwd, decent head, saloon OK, great galley and nav under the coach roof, dble quarter stb and storage/machinery port..............

It might not have the bells and whistles the US market has come to expect but its not bad with some extra storage filled in in a few places. The Vee groove paneling everywhere is a bit same same but thats not unfixable.

That said, yes the price is high.

Whats the second compression post/duct/tube thingy just aft of the mast?



Keith, thanks for the heads up on the book. I found a copy for $6 and just ordered.

Paps, not sure what that post is...I'll have to look into it next time. Layout is just a personal thing...all the necessary components are there, I'd just change a few things around. But like I said before, this boat would require a LOT of work to get it where I want it (and significant work/investment to get sailing at all), so I'm not completely against the idea of a major interior renovation. Heck, I probably like working on the things almost as much as sailing.

I haven't completely ruled it out yet. Going to have a closer look




The second post abaft the mast is (I assume) a tie-bar kind of affair. Usually they're in tension not compression and are for halyard blocks fixed at the mast seal. It stops you pulling the deck upwards as you tension the halyards. Sailed on a Swan 46 with a similar arrangement and the loads on that thing were large enough for it to be nice to know it was there.



Anyway, what's with that unorthodox line arrangement device on the Fwd end of the coach roof? A row of hanging blocks or something? Maybe Harken's version of windchimes??


http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp??access=Public&currency=USD&listing_id=1728&units=Feet&boat_id=2292534&back=boatDetail.jsp&boat_id=2292534&noOfPic=14

#17 Ishmael

Ishmael

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,286 posts
  • Location:Fuctifino

Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:46 PM



I sailed onKhatsahlano a waterline 50, Vancouver to San Fran. Then later, a month in the sea of Cortez. Khatsahlano is a different design, and the interior was fitted out by her original owner and not the yard. She was a very well built steel boat, built in round bilge, and her builders had built many other steel boats.
At that time, I was really into steel sailboat designs, (A growing up in the north west coast thing), See if you can find a book called "Steel away" there may be some info about the waterline guys there, any how, I wanted to buy Khatsahlano, and was beaten to her by Mike, and I ended up a multihull sailor, (thank you! ENZA), but that's another story.

I used to stop at their shop, every time I was on Vancouver island, and loved to see their metal work 1st hand. Waterline was building the nicest round bilge steel boats on the west coast, at that time. There are a few around, and you would be best too try to find another owner to chat with if possible. Most were semi custom boats. Khatsahlano went on to circumnavigate, over many years, and returned to Vancouver. I do not know where she is now. You may be able to find some of their old cruising stories at "Bluewater Cruising Association". MIke and Kelly would often send in their adventures. http://bluewatercruising.org/

Whats wrong with the layout?

Pullman fwd, decent head, saloon OK, great galley and nav under the coach roof, dble quarter stb and storage/machinery port..............

It might not have the bells and whistles the US market has come to expect but its not bad with some extra storage filled in in a few places. The Vee groove paneling everywhere is a bit same same but thats not unfixable.

That said, yes the price is high.

Whats the second compression post/duct/tube thingy just aft of the mast?



Keith, thanks for the heads up on the book. I found a copy for $6 and just ordered.

Paps, not sure what that post is...I'll have to look into it next time. Layout is just a personal thing...all the necessary components are there, I'd just change a few things around. But like I said before, this boat would require a LOT of work to get it where I want it (and significant work/investment to get sailing at all), so I'm not completely against the idea of a major interior renovation. Heck, I probably like working on the things almost as much as sailing.

I haven't completely ruled it out yet. Going to have a closer look




The second post abaft the mast is (I assume) a tie-bar kind of affair. Usually they're in tension not compression and are for halyard blocks fixed at the mast seal. It stops you pulling the deck upwards as you tension the halyards. Sailed on a Swan 46 with a similar arrangement and the loads on that thing were large enough for it to be nice to know it was there.



Anyway, what's with that unorthodox line arrangement device on the Fwd end of the coach roof? A row of hanging blocks or something? Maybe Harken's version of windchimes??


http://www.yachtworl...2534&noOfPic=14


That looks like a rack of blocks to take the lines from the base of the mast up onto the coachroof; from there they go to the deck organizers. Looks like there's a lot of room for more lines.

#18 DFL1010

DFL1010

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 151 posts
  • Location:Falmouth, UK

Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:31 PM




I sailed onKhatsahlano a waterline 50, Vancouver to San Fran. Then later, a month in the sea of Cortez. Khatsahlano is a different design, and the interior was fitted out by her original owner and not the yard. She was a very well built steel boat, built in round bilge, and her builders had built many other steel boats.
At that time, I was really into steel sailboat designs, (A growing up in the north west coast thing), See if you can find a book called "Steel away" there may be some info about the waterline guys there, any how, I wanted to buy Khatsahlano, and was beaten to her by Mike, and I ended up a multihull sailor, (thank you! ENZA), but that's another story.

I used to stop at their shop, every time I was on Vancouver island, and loved to see their metal work 1st hand. Waterline was building the nicest round bilge steel boats on the west coast, at that time. There are a few around, and you would be best too try to find another owner to chat with if possible. Most were semi custom boats. Khatsahlano went on to circumnavigate, over many years, and returned to Vancouver. I do not know where she is now. You may be able to find some of their old cruising stories at "Bluewater Cruising Association". MIke and Kelly would often send in their adventures. http://bluewatercruising.org/

Whats wrong with the layout?

Pullman fwd, decent head, saloon OK, great galley and nav under the coach roof, dble quarter stb and storage/machinery port..............

It might not have the bells and whistles the US market has come to expect but its not bad with some extra storage filled in in a few places. The Vee groove paneling everywhere is a bit same same but thats not unfixable.

That said, yes the price is high.

Whats the second compression post/duct/tube thingy just aft of the mast?



Keith, thanks for the heads up on the book. I found a copy for $6 and just ordered.

Paps, not sure what that post is...I'll have to look into it next time. Layout is just a personal thing...all the necessary components are there, I'd just change a few things around. But like I said before, this boat would require a LOT of work to get it where I want it (and significant work/investment to get sailing at all), so I'm not completely against the idea of a major interior renovation. Heck, I probably like working on the things almost as much as sailing.

I haven't completely ruled it out yet. Going to have a closer look




The second post abaft the mast is (I assume) a tie-bar kind of affair. Usually they're in tension not compression and are for halyard blocks fixed at the mast seal. It stops you pulling the deck upwards as you tension the halyards. Sailed on a Swan 46 with a similar arrangement and the loads on that thing were large enough for it to be nice to know it was there.



Anyway, what's with that unorthodox line arrangement device on the Fwd end of the coach roof? A row of hanging blocks or something? Maybe Harken's version of windchimes??


http://www.yachtworl...2534&noOfPic=14


That looks like a rack of blocks to take the lines from the base of the mast up onto the coachroof; from there they go to the deck organizers. Looks like there's a lot of room for more lines.




Agreed that's what it's for, it's just not ... how I'd do it.

#19 Ishmael

Ishmael

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,286 posts
  • Location:Fuctifino

Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

Agreed that's what it's for, it's just not ... how I'd do it.


That makes at least two of us.

#20 ultimategumby

ultimategumby

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:55 AM

Looked yesterday.

The post abaft the mast is still a bit of a mystery. It may be in tension as DFL hypothesizes, but it seems like overkill on a steel boat. I can't imagine what a compression post would be needed for on this either. The table is bolted to a bracket that's affixed to the post, so it might not even be structural.

The deck layout is a little wonky, but it looks like it would work. Not sure about the rigging--I think it's original which means it's seen a loop back in the 90's and then some, but there is no obvious rusting/fraying/looseness etc. I'd probably replace it anyway given the age. Winches seem ok, but all new running rigging definitely required. The mast seal is...messy? It just doesn't look well done. Lots of sealant squeezed out around the base which may or may not actually signify more problems. No signs of leaking on the inside around the mast. Some corrosion on the mast itself is a bit worrisome, but it could just be superficial. It looks fairly fowled on the bottom (at least from the waterline I could see) and needs some topside as well.

The engine has around 9000 hours....I don't have much experience with these things, but I'm pretty sure that warrants a rebuild. No obvious corrosion anywhere that I could access, but the foam makes it difficult to assess. How sensitive is an ultrasound of the hull for picking up weak spots/corrosion?

All the electronics and sails need replacing as do the cushions. The layout itself is actually not bad with a nice, large galley, reasonable head with decent space, a workshop area and pretty good storage. Not sure how well the head, sink, oven, cooler, etc work but I'm told functional.

All in all I'm intrigued, but the concerns about corrosion have me VERY hesitant. I'm guessing close to an additional $100k to get it really up and running which is another issue given the way financing works. The pondering continues...

#21 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:24 PM

9000 hours is a lot of engine hours and might be a note on the boat's performance under sail. Maybe.

Don't think that's a compression post. Probably an oversized tie rod to keep the deck from lifting. If it's a hollow pipe it may also be a vent for some tank or tanks.

#22 Tucky

Tucky

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,655 posts
  • Location:Maine

Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:52 PM

Looked yesterday.

It looks fairly fowled on the bottom (at least from the waterline I could see) and needs some topside as well.


Run, run, run. Birds on the bottom is a very bad sign, especially once they nest. Trust me on this.

#23 ultimategumby

ultimategumby

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:47 PM


Looked yesterday.

It looks fairly fowled on the bottom (at least from the waterline I could see) and needs some topside as well.


Run, run, run. Birds on the bottom is a very bad sign, especially once they nest. Trust me on this.

Yes, birds on boats are bad in general. On the bottom they are worse I imagine. I was obviously not an english major--still can't figure out affect and effect either.

#24 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:21 PM

Thank God. I thought it was just me.

#25 Speng

Speng

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,160 posts
  • Location:Cincinnati, OH
  • Interests:stuff with sails

Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:54 PM

Team:
I don't know and that's the problem. I think it would be an awful job to try and remove any of that foam. It was a popular way to build steel boats though. I did some design work for the Amazon guys in BC and they sprayed all their boats. They claimed it was impossible for water to get in between the foam and the steel. I was dubious. They were adamant. I had a pal with a steel 42'er built in Holland his worst rust was under the head where water had dripped for years.


How else would you do it? Yeah it's going to rust but the hull has to be insulated no? Insulation blankets?Still a PITA I guess the takeaway is don't build 44 ft sailboats from steel. Aluminum's a far better choice. Overbuilding a boat is a cure for not wanting to do your structural sums but is it a cure you want?

#26 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:03 PM

Speng:
Could you repeat that slowly this time. I'm not sure what you are saying. Alu boats need insulation too. I am not a fan of steel boats because of the weight.

#27 tad

tad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 311 posts
  • Location:Flattop Islands

Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

I guess the takeaway is don't build 44 ft sailboats from steel. Aluminum's a far better choice.


Good boats can be built from any material, as can bad boats......It's not the material it's the way you handle details.....Yes, the best builder's of metal boats (mostly northern European) use insulation in blankets that are carefully cut and fit into place. There are a number of systems for holding them in place, including pins spot welded to the plates. Because the insulation is in small pieces it's easy to remove a bit and clean/inspect behind......lots of man hours though......

The very worst boats are the ones where the builder claimed you didn't need to do anything between steel and sprayed foam.....huge mistake.....this one is better in that the interior was flame sprayed (with zinc) before the foam went in. The very best is to clean (that means hand chip all welds) and blast, then prime and apply 3 coats coal tar epoxy, then do the insulation.

#28 too_many_toys

too_many_toys

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

Aluminum is by far the preferable material. The problem IMHO with most well built aluminum cruisers is, they have centerboards. I much prefer a fin keel..... and big dinghy if nessessary!

#29 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:36 PM

Toys:
I have done several cruising boats in alu and none have centerboards. There is simply no connection between alu and a centerboard. That's just a design consideration if you are after shoal draft.

#30 Estar

Estar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,417 posts

Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:39 PM

I have done several cruising boats in alu and none have centerboards.


Bob, how could you . . . thats against the French laws of physics!

Unless of course you exceed the speed of light, and then its ok because you are going backwards in time :)

#31 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:59 PM

Evans:
I'd love to go backwards in time.

#32 ultimategumby

ultimategumby

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:39 PM

Aluminum is by far the preferable material. The problem IMHO with most well built aluminum cruisers is, they have centerboards. I much prefer a fin keel..... and big dinghy if nessessary!

Sure, aluminum is lighter and nearly as strong. But hard to find aluminum in my price range. I've been talked out of steel for now, mainly due to the cost of a quality metal boat...at least one where the quality can be easily verified.

Bob, I recently stumbled across a Nordic 40 you did and that just happens to be for sale. Perhaps a trip up to Bellingham is in order. I just need to find the time...or get one of these backwards time traveling, faster than light contraptions you guys are talking about.

#33 kdh

kdh

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,555 posts
  • Location:narragansett bay

Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:28 PM


I have done several cruising boats in alu and none have centerboards.


Bob, how could you . . . thats against the French laws of physics!

Unless of course you exceed the speed of light, and then its ok because you are going backwards in time :)


Last I knew we can't go faster than the speed of light, though time dilation gets you relatively younger than everyone else by going close to that speed.

I think I have that right. The french probably don't agree.

We learned in Greenwich that the french were one of the last to agree to their meridian.

#34 Estar

Estar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,417 posts

Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:05 PM



I have done several cruising boats in alu and none have centerboards.


Bob, how could you . . . thats against the French laws of physics!

Unless of course you exceed the speed of light, and then its ok because you are going backwards in time :)


Last I knew we can't go faster than the speed of light, though time dilation gets you relatively younger than everyone else by going close to that speed.

I think I have that right. The french probably don't agree.

We learned in Greenwich that the french were one of the last to agree to their meridian.


If bob designed a centerboard boat built from french tachyons it might go backwards in time.

I still have some paper charts (of Polynesia) that show the meridian thru Paris.

#35 Beau.Vrolyk

Beau.Vrolyk

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,269 posts
  • Location:San Francisco & Santa Cruz
  • Interests:Sailing on any and everything that floats. Skiing when the rainfall turns semi-solid and white.

Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:40 PM

Soo..... regarding rust..... I grew up on my Dad's iron boat (not steel but black iron from Hamburg Germany). It was painted and without foam inside. Each year, from when the boat was about 25 years old, we'd go around the bottom during a haul out with a hammer tapping to find the rusty spots, you could hear them. Then we'd weld a plate over the "thin" spot and ignore the rust. Dad's theory was that it took 20 years to rust through 3mm of iron. Seemed to work out, the boat is still sailing in LA, is now just over 60 years old and has had numerous doubling plates attached. Just a FYI, if you know how to weld, it is MUCH easier to double a hull plate than it is to replace a plank in a wooded plank-on-frame boat - I've done both. You just have to keep water on the interior where it's near where you're welding to avoid fire. :blink:

Now, on to foam lining. My big boat, SAGA designed by Tom Wylie, that we went cruising on was built in 1984 by her first owner, Arlo Nish. He built her out of a high-strength steel (not CORTEN) because he wasn't willing to carry the extra weight of a CORTEN hull. As a result, she wasn't awfully heavy. 65' LOA and 68,000 pounds. That should be compared with a Swan-65 which has about the same dimensions, is built in fiberglass and comes in at 70,000 pounds. Neither design would be accused of being a light-weight boat. SAGA was 2' wider than the Swan-65 and carried a centerboard. As a result, for a cruising boat, I don't think steel requires that you pay a weight penalty over similar vintage fiberglass boats. The Swan-65 really is a cruising boat, despite having won the Whitbread round the world race.

Once the hull of SAGA was built, the team went through the following steps. First, sandblast the steel to bright. Second, within 10 minutes (to avoid oxidation) flame spray the steel with zinc. This is using a thing that looks like a cross between a spray paint gun and a blow torch. It melts zinc pellets and sprays the molten zinc onto the heated steel. Third, within a few hours spray paint the newly cooled zinc with an epoxy based zinc chromate paint. The zinc Chromate paint was covered with three layers of high build epoxy paint. This process was done to the entire hull, inside and outside, every single inch of the steel was covered.

After applying the zinc and paint system the engine room area and bottom of the bilge were masked off. Then, everything else was covered with 3" of spray on foam. This had two great effects. One, it insulated everything which was great in the tropics and also up in Newfoundland. Second, it made the boat amazingly quiet, a benefit I hadn't predicted. Metal boats can make lots of banging noises when waves hit the hull and when something noisy like an air compressor runs. The foam really solves a lot of that. The bits that weren't foam covered were that way to that one could weld to the hull if needed etc... Also, the way one was supposed to remove the engine from the boat was buy cutting out the bottom of the boat and lowering the engine to the ground while still attached to the frames on the hull. It was a great idea, but I didn't understand it and ending up rebuilding the engine in the main saloon.

The results of the foam and paint system are that in a boat built in 1984 there is not one sign of rust anywhere except where a dummy like me has dropped a wrench into the engine room and chipped the paint system. The current owner had the steel thickness tested when he bought the boat about 6 or 7 years ago and it was exactly what it was when built. From that experience, I'd suggest that a well built steel boat with foam can do just fine for about 30 years with only minimal maintenance. It isn't any heavier than a solidly built fiberglass hull. It has much greater survival strength than either glass or wood if put up on a reef. I don't know how long SAGA will keep going, there's no sign of any degradation at all. That's certainly a much better record than wood (in most cases). Finally, Arlo was convinced (and I think he's right) that if you're only building one boat steel is much less expensive than any other construction technology because it doesn't require molds and takes far fewer jigs etc... than a wooden build. Bob and others would know a lot more about the cost issues.

BV

#36 tad

tad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 311 posts
  • Location:Flattop Islands

Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:27 PM

BV.......Thanks for outlining your experience....that's good stuff.

Generally the weight penalty in steel boats is size dependent. There's a bigger penalty at 35'-40' than at 60'. This is due to a few reasons. Small steel boats (35'-40') are massivly overbuilt, bigger steel yachts are still overbuilt (both your Wiley and the Swan are in the context of current 60' cruisers) but not as much. Part of that is thin steel is really hard to weld nicely, so you add stupid weight in the form of filler. Currently the lightest small steel boats are built using an origami system where you buy two 40' sheets of 3/16" plate and fold up a hull with minimal framing added later. Today you can't get flat sheets of 1/8" (or less) plate, it comes to the supplier on a roll, nothing is flat and it's impossible to get it flat. 3/16" is available in flat sheets, so you can make a nice fair hull and it dosen't distort too bad with welding heat. So the boat gets overbuilt.....which is fine when you're bouncing off containers in the open ocean.....

#37 kdh

kdh

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,555 posts
  • Location:narragansett bay

Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:20 PM

tad and BV, you guys are smart. Really. I'm impressed.

When I bought my boat, my first, in 2005 I thought it would be new forever. It's 2012 now. So far so good. tad, curious about what you think of HInckley's ideas, carbon/kevlar/glass hull laminate. I hope Adele wants the boat and it won't be a burden when I kick.

I've been preparing to die lately. Updated our will, gave a bunch of money to Adele before the laws change.

#38 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,504 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:43 PM

There is a group devoted to origami-style construction here: http://groups.yahoo....?yguid=91266861 If you join the group, there are lots of interesting pictures, both boats in construction and finished boats.

The group is pretty much devoted to home builders. Professionals can build better boats.

The group are followers of designers Brent Swain who seems to be a rough and ready kind of guy who can do most anything he wants and won't do anything he doesn't want. As a result, some of the boats are pretty....agricultural in the details. I believe that Swain himself has cruised around the Pacific, but not in high yacht fashion.

#39 tad

tad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 311 posts
  • Location:Flattop Islands

Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

kd......

This morning I was looking at the newest Hinckley (48FB) in the November Yachting. Okay, but pretty much the same stuff we did in the 44' for about 1/3rd the money a long time ago. What really struck me was the asking for used Hinckleys has plummeted.......I can remember when a H56 would fetch something over $1m and the 70 was offered at $4m plus.......the world has changed again........

Peter Smith was mostly behind that fancy layup, he and John Marshall were involved in some AC project....it was exotic and really expensive when they started doing it.....another reason to add $200k to the price of a boat, even though it really cost an additional $30k. Scrimping the hulls was far more important step in my view.

#40 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:05 AM

Here is a nice alu boat with a real keel.
There is no mystery here. A good designer, like me for instance, can draw a beautiful alu boat with or without a keel.
This is my reality.

Attached Files



#41 ice9a

ice9a

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 270 posts
  • Interests:1

Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:21 AM

Here is a nice alu boat with a real keel.
There is no mystery here. A good designer, like me for instance, can draw a beautiful alu boat with or without a keel.
This is my reality.


Now that's a design I like - how big is it? and who built (dutch?) it?

Rudder looks small though?

#42 kdh

kdh

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,555 posts
  • Location:narragansett bay

Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:46 PM

kd......

This morning I was looking at the newest Hinckley (48FB) in the November Yachting. Okay, but pretty much the same stuff we did in the 44' for about 1/3rd the money a long time ago. What really struck me was the asking for used Hinckleys has plummeted.......I can remember when a H56 would fetch something over $1m and the 70 was offered at $4m plus.......the world has changed again........

Peter Smith was mostly behind that fancy layup, he and John Marshall were involved in some AC project....it was exotic and really expensive when they started doing it.....another reason to add $200k to the price of a boat, even though it really cost an additional $30k. Scrimping the hulls was far more important step in my view.


I like the T48. No flybridge though, thank you. It and the T40 are the pick of the Talaria line, in my view. The new picnic boat is awful compared to the original. Beautiful work on that one.

Posted Image

I think I'd be very lucky to get half of what I paid for my boat--I'm glad I'm not selling and that I never considered it an investment. My guess is that low used boat prices probably say more about the economy than the quality of the boats, however.

#43 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:08 PM

Ice:
Dutch built.
61' LOA
Rudder perfect for the boat

#44 Beau.Vrolyk

Beau.Vrolyk

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,269 posts
  • Location:San Francisco & Santa Cruz
  • Interests:Sailing on any and everything that floats. Skiing when the rainfall turns semi-solid and white.

Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

Tad,

Thanks for the comment on scale effects. I can see your point about smaller boats in steel. That explains a lot. My (typical) overlong post was really trying to get folks past the rust issue, which can be addressed.

I had a look at your web site, and that Enavigo-39 is a SWEET looking design! When I need a geezer class mini-yacht I'd like something like that. Nicely done. I like the original profile better than the new one, but I'm a pretty traditional sort.

BV

#45 Beau.Vrolyk

Beau.Vrolyk

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,269 posts
  • Location:San Francisco & Santa Cruz
  • Interests:Sailing on any and everything that floats. Skiing when the rainfall turns semi-solid and white.

Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

Ice:
Dutch built.
61' LOA
Rudder perfect for the boat


Bob,

I think a lot of people's "eye calibration" for stuff like rudder size is because so many designs need oversized rudders because the basic design has control problems. We once built a 1/2 sized rudder for a Moore 24 to see how she did, it worked great. The rudder that is stock on the design is overkill. The designer didn't trust the manners of the design and the boat has paid a penalty in wetted surface ever since. Not that it matters in one-design sailing.

BV

#46 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

Beau:
I have had a lot of "rudder adventures".

I have always relied on my eye for rudder size. I have always opted for bigger rudders. But if you read my book and the chapter on STARBUCK you will see that I was not always right and I had to recalibrate my approach.

When I did one of the Mirage boats, I think it was the Mirage 30, Mirage had just built the Kirby 30'er. I discussed it Dick who owned Mirage and we decided that we would use the very same rudder on my 30'er that he was using on the Kirby 30. It would save him the time and money to retool a new rudder. It was a disaster. You can learn a lot from mistakes.

#47 Anomaly2

Anomaly2

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 553 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:sailing, building small boats...

Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

I've been preparing to die lately.


Woo-hoo! From a certain perspective, this means next sailing season could REALLY be fun!

#48 olaf hart

olaf hart

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,517 posts
  • Location:D'Entrecasteaux Channel

Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

Bob, how do you get a nice paint job like that to stick to an aluminium hull?

Did she need much fairing?

That is such a sweet hull, the sheer and visual balance just jump out at me. Love to see her in real life.


#49 tad

tad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 311 posts
  • Location:Flattop Islands

Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:31 PM

I have always opted for bigger rudders.


Bruce King had a saying, "Nobody ever complained that the rudder is too big.".......Bruce had a bunch of too small/ineffective rudders in his early designs for Islander and Ericson.

#50 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

Olaf:
Thank you for the kind words. It's a good looking boat that sails very well and has done some serious passage making.
I had nothing to do with the paint job. I never do. I just tell them where to put the stripes and generally the builder doesn't even pay attention to that. I prefer builders use paint systems that they have confidence in.

The boat is now in Surinam and for sale. Owner has health issues. I have clients on their way there in their current boat to check it out.

I don't know where Surinam is. I don't even know if that's how you spell it.
I do know that I'm never going there.

#51 kdh

kdh

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,555 posts
  • Location:narragansett bay

Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

Olaf:
Thank you for the kind words. It's a good looking boat that sails very well and has done some serious passage making.
I had nothing to do with the paint job. I never do. I just tell them where to put the stripes and generally the builder doesn't even pay attention to that. I prefer builders use paint systems that they have confidence in.

The boat is now in Surinam and for sale. Owner has health issues. I have clients on their way there in their current boat to check it out.

I don't know where Surinam is. I don't even know if that's how you spell it.
I do know that I'm never going there.

Posted Image

#52 Jose Carumba

Jose Carumba

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,465 posts
  • Location:Pugetopolis

Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:02 PM


I have always opted for bigger rudders.


Bruce King had a saying, "Nobody ever complained that the rudder is too big.".......Bruce had a bunch of too small/ineffective rudders in his early designs for Islander and Ericson.


I think it was Phil Spaulding who had a similar saying 'a rudder can never be too big' or something like that. Of course he was a ship and commercial vessel designer.

#53 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:16 PM

kdh:
Thanks. Now I know for sure I'm never going there.

Bob P.

#54 ice9a

ice9a

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 270 posts
  • Interests:1

Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:12 PM

Ice:
Dutch built.

>> What yard in Holland Bob?

Rudder perfect for the boat

>> I am sure :) I like a BIG rudder for slow speed maneuvering in reverse around marinas, bigger than you would normally have just for sailing performance. I like to have affirmative steering control down under 1kt.



#55 Beau.Vrolyk

Beau.Vrolyk

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,269 posts
  • Location:San Francisco & Santa Cruz
  • Interests:Sailing on any and everything that floats. Skiing when the rainfall turns semi-solid and white.

Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:13 AM

On the issue of rudders being too big or too small. A friend, who is not a great sailor, had a designer put a new keel and rudder on his 48' racing sloop. The designer did a "modern" keel with a fin and bulb to replace the old trapezoid style keel and a modern deep high-aspect ratio rudder which was about 30% bigger than the original rudder.

The customer (my friend the owner) was thrilled. He said things like "Now I can put the boat right were I want it on the starting line. It has such control!" and "The boat tracks like crazy down wind, no control problems at all." The designer, who is also a friend of mine, achieved a real success here. I keep the polars on the boat and what happened was we got about 1/8 of a knot slower down wind and about 1/4 of a knot slower upwind - with the owner driving. But if the boat is sailed well the keel seems to generate more lift so the VMG works out to be about the same. With a really good sailor driving, which rarely happens, we're about 1/2 a knot faster upwind and the same speed downwind. In really strong winds the deeper bulb keel keeps the boat on its feet better so we're faster upwind then.

The brilliance of this designer is that he gave the customer exactly what he wanted, the customer is happy as a duck in a pond, and the difference in the speed is really hard to "prove" except to those of us who have a lot of data over a lot of years.

The final bit is that when we tack, I drag my foot on the wheel to keep the owner from turning too fast. No matter how much we practice, he just wants to stop the boat with that gigantic rudder. So..... I think a rudder can be too big, but clearly it is exactly and precisely the right thing for the designer to have done for this particular customer.

BV

#56 Mash

Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 211 posts
  • Location:Lyon - Fr

Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:43 AM


I have done several cruising boats in alu and none have centerboards.


Bob, how could you . . . thats against the French laws of physics!


<hijack>
Mmmmm, I guess I would put a word for the (probably basically unknown stateside, as it's pretty marginal even in France) Cigale range from Alubat - more famous for their centerboard-equipped OVNIs

Cigales are "reasonable" displacement (not sure if they really qualify as ULDBs), aluminum, fast bluewater cruisers, with fixed keels and a distinctive aft saloon.

Website here . As you would expect from a french boat builder, their "english" website is still 50% in french, but the.pdf files do present the specs in english (using metric units, though) . 14 and 16 meters versions already exist, 18 and 22 are projects

</hijack>

M.

#57 Joli

Joli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts

Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:55 AM

I always thought the bow thruster was for marina maneuvering. :)


Ice:
Dutch built.

>> What yard in Holland Bob?

Rudder perfect for the boat

>> I am sure :) I like a BIG rudder for slow speed maneuvering in reverse around marinas, bigger than you would normally have just for sailing performance. I like to have affirmative steering control down under 1kt.



#58 Joli

Joli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,736 posts

Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:00 PM

That's a funny story Beau.

Some guys have a feel and some, well..............


On the issue of rudders being too big or too small. A friend, who is not a great sailor, had a designer put a new keel and rudder on his 48' racing sloop. The designer did a "modern" keel with a fin and bulb to replace the old trapezoid style keel and a modern deep high-aspect ratio rudder which was about 30% bigger than the original rudder.

The customer (my friend the owner) was thrilled. He said things like "Now I can put the boat right were I want it on the starting line. It has such control!" and "The boat tracks like crazy down wind, no control problems at all." The designer, who is also a friend of mine, achieved a real success here. I keep the polars on the boat and what happened was we got about 1/8 of a knot slower down wind and about 1/4 of a knot slower upwind - with the owner driving. But if the boat is sailed well the keel seems to generate more lift so the VMG works out to be about the same. With a really good sailor driving, which rarely happens, we're about 1/2 a knot faster upwind and the same speed downwind. In really strong winds the deeper bulb keel keeps the boat on its feet better so we're faster upwind then.

The brilliance of this designer is that he gave the customer exactly what he wanted, the customer is happy as a duck in a pond, and the difference in the speed is really hard to "prove" except to those of us who have a lot of data over a lot of years.

The final bit is that when we tack, I drag my foot on the wheel to keep the owner from turning too fast. No matter how much we practice, he just wants to stop the boat with that gigantic rudder. So..... I think a rudder can be too big, but clearly it is exactly and precisely the right thing for the designer to have done for this particular customer.

BV



#59 Tanton Yacht Design

Tanton Yacht Design

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Location:Newport R.I
  • Interests:To Never Quit.

Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:08 PM

Attached File  Pic1 03 26.jpg   133.96K   10 downloads
Metal boats.
Aluminum is probably the best option for building an offshore metal boat. Hard to deny the strength that can be designed into the vessel using this medium. My preferred material for serious cruising, even though many of my metal boats designs are for steel construction including origami method of building.
Attached File  Pic3 03 26.jpg   132.66K   11 downloads
http://www.tantonyac...gn.blogspot.com

#60 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,964 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:29 PM

Yves-Marie:
I think alu boats are the very prettiest during construction.

#61 Tanton Yacht Design

Tanton Yacht Design

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Location:Newport R.I
  • Interests:To Never Quit.

Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

Attached File  bowconstruction.jpg   47.89K   22 downloads
All those pounds of silver.
shiny as it gets.
www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com

#62 Alan H

Alan H

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,772 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area
  • Interests:Shorthanded Sailing

Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:25 AM

I know someone who did a Singlehanded TransPac in a Waterline 45, then sailed it to New Zealand. I believe they swallowed the anchor a few years ago, and I've lost track. The boats name was Kaien.

I remember, before the 2003 LongPac, we had a raftup of a bunch of the boats that were doing the race. One of my sailing friends girlfriends did the tour of Kaien and then came up the companionway.. I was sitting in the cockpit. I'll never forget what she said...

I never fucking thought I'd have fucking BOAT-envy.

#63 Maxx Baqustae

Maxx Baqustae

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,985 posts
  • Location:Canadian Southwest
  • Interests:Ummmm......sailboat racing

Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:30 PM

I know someone who did a Singlehanded TransPac in a Waterline 45, then sailed it to New Zealand. I believe they swallowed the anchor a few years ago, and I've lost track. The boats name was Kaien.

I remember, before the 2003 LongPac, we had a raftup of a bunch of the boats that were doing the race. One of my sailing friends girlfriends did the tour of Kaien and then came up the companionway.. I was sitting in the cockpit. I'll never forget what she said...

I never fucking thought I'd have fucking BOAT-envy.


The owners/builders of Kaien are still around but they sold the boat about 7(?) years ago as they had done their globetrotting. When they sold it was in like new condition which is saying something considering where it's been. They have a Back Cove 29 powerboat now.

I know lots about Waterline Yachts as the maker, Ed Rutherford, is a friend of mine and we sailed the Waterline 60 "MoonShot" in Swiftsure & Southern Straits one year. I don't have time to post pics right now but if anyone is interested I'll do them soon.

Great boat.

#64 Maxx Baqustae

Maxx Baqustae

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,985 posts
  • Location:Canadian Southwest
  • Interests:Ummmm......sailboat racing

Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:49 PM

Got them.

Pretty comfy but a real crank of speed. Not a race boat really speed but no slouch. And pointed like a banshee. At Swifsure that year we were going upwind in 18 knots in Juan de Fuca slop and a Olson 40 (I think) that appeared on our lee bow. They couldn't do it for quite some time until they tacked for some breathing room to starboard then tacked again. In about 45 minutes they were on our lee bow again. They tacked again. 45 minutes later - they were back again. We weren't trying to squeeze them at all but after another few attempts they finally sailed away. Funny thing is we were about to get dinner started up in sky lounge with only one crew driving. They're crew were fully hiked doing the full head bobs when we were chowing down an excellent 3 cheese pasta with much of clinking of glasses. I think they pretty much hated us.

Attached File  MSHT.CB.jpg   19.35K   24 downloadsAttached File  MSHT.X2.jpg   114.1K   37 downloadsAttached File  MSHT.SLN.jpg   136.22K   37 downloadsAttached File  MSHT.GLLY.jpg   112.89K   30 downloadsAttached File  MSHT.AFTSR.jpg   103.72K   20 downloads




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users