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Cheoy Lee 48...thoughts??


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#1 dacapo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:23 PM

a good friend of mine is interested in the 1980 Cheoy Lee on ebay and was looking for some feedback wether or not to place a bid (he currently owns a Catalina 36 and wants to move up to a live aboard/winter in the Fla. Keys type thing...any thoughts on this particular boat?? Mr. Perry, thoughts on your design?? Anyone know this boat in Kemah Tx. ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/...t_168883wt_1196

#2 Soņadora

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:00 PM

That's SICK!

Interesting description in Bob's book. Note the unusual layout with 2 companion ways. Wouldn't bother me one bit, though.

Looks like a steal to me.

#3 Cruisin Loser

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:46 PM

I wonder what happened to the bow chocks? They seem to have gone MIA, the stern ones are there. Leading dock lines right over the toe rail will shorten the life of varnish. At least this looks to have a keel stepped mast, and someone has sensibly gotten rid of the teak decks.

#4 Kent H

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:29 PM

http://www.cruisersf...ebay-88657.html

This is from June on this one or another Cheoy lee 48.

I thought that in general the Cheoy Lee boats were showing a lot more problems than most Asian boats of that period.

Great looking boats but the stories I have heard are to avoid. Beautiful boat but if it is the same 48 from Texas your friend might want to call this guy first.

#5 mad

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:46 PM

One word 'SURVEY'



#6 Bob Perry

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

Mad is right.
Kent is right.

#7 dacapo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:04 AM

thanks guys....my buddy won;t be happy but as they say...if it's too good to be true, it usually isn;t true...he'll keep looking. (ps....he IS in the market for a boat in the 42-48 ft. length. Price is an issue...he doesn;t want to go over $80,000) if anyone knows of a boat that is for sale....hit me up

#8 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:20 AM

This is the Cheoy Lee "Clipper 48" One of my first boat maintenance gigs was onboard her. Used to belong to Buffett.

http://www.cheoyleea...sc/Euphoria.htm

Posted Image

#9 Soņadora

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:23 AM

Nice find (but scary), Kent.

This place never ceases to amaze. If I ever 'place a contract' on my own personal Rebecca (or would that be, if I ever 'go Rebecca'?) I'll surely come here first for feedback.

#10 Ishmael

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:48 AM

Nice find (but scary), Kent.

This place never ceases to amaze. If I ever 'place a contract' on my own personal Rebecca (or would that be, if I ever 'do Rebecca'?) I'll surely come here first for feedback abuse.


Fixed.

#11 boomer

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:46 AM

I thought they were a neat boat till I saw one hauled out in Port Townsend about 10 years ago.

Besides the build quality being way less then extraordinary, I couldn't believe the width and shape of the keel, I still shake my head when I think about that keel.

#12 Kent H

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:30 AM

Cheoy Lee had some really great looking boats and a great advertising campaign...not to mention the boats just looked so damn good at the boat shows. I have heard some stories about just about anything used to fill voids and cores. But doesn't that boat just look fantastic? Someone has gone to a lot of trouble to make the boat look like it is almost brand new.

The problem is that they are greedy. If they admited to some problems and priced it at $55k the boat would have already sold.

Scrap lead is at aprox $ .45 per pound. That is how I am evaluating boats today. I have been wondering when that boat on the truck thread with 7000lbs of ballest supposedly sitting very close to the mexican border is going to dissapear. Even as a salvage this boat worries me - You buy it to part out and find out that they used iron vice lead!

#13 stranded

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:38 AM

didn't they use iron scrap and concrete ?

#14 jhiller

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:07 PM

No two Cheoy Lees were built the same. That's part of the problem. I'd run...

#15 bmiller

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:33 PM

There is another nice boat in the same area. 1961 John Alden ketch.
Beautiful boat:
http://cgi.ebay.com/...5#ht_5930wt_958

#16 Gatekeeper

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:54 PM

I like it...I really like it.

#17 Soņadora

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:01 PM

There is another nice boat in the same area. 1961 John Alden ketch.
Beautiful boat:
http://cgi.ebay.com/...5#ht_5930wt_958


If you had a giant fireplace mantle to put it on, that'd be great.

Wooden boats though...*shudder

#18 SemiSalt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:06 PM

No two Cheoy Lees were built the same. That's part of the problem. I'd run...


Based on a short tour of the Cheoy Lee yard in 1970, I'd say that a "production run" was a little like having a subdivision of houses all built to the same plan by different building crews. The same, but not the same.

#19 Gatekeeper

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:08 PM

It says "hull material...fiberglass"...is that an error?

#20 Ishmael

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:31 PM

It says "hull material...fiberglass"...is that an error?


A lot of the early Cheoy Lee boats were glass hulls with wooden decking and/or houses. What could possibly go wrong?

#21 Joli

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:50 PM

It may simply be a rumor but I've heard; if some Taiwanese builders ran out of woven roving they would substitute burlap? Dealing with these guys over the years I can almost believe it.

#22 Kent H

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:59 PM

Cheoy Lee is Hong Kong...I believe that the boat in question was made in Hong Kong. But this is a good example of how it only takes a cheaply made boat that was expected to be much better built to tar others.

The Taiwanese boats that I have been on have been from some of the very best to laughable. But for the most part the higher end stuff is just fantastic for cruisers. There are a few that really are horrible but that is why Bob Perry has his $500 consulting service for serious buyers. http://www.perryboat.com/page/consult

#23 Bob Perry

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

Joli:
Those are old rumors and I spent a lot of time in Taiwan yards and never saw burlap being used. Most Taiwan hulls were massivley laid up with mat and roving. If there was one consistant problem with most of the Taiwan yards it was that "when in doubt add more laminate". I think the longevity and resale of almost all of my Taiwan boats proves that there were many good builders there, some better than others.

The Cheoy Lee pictured is not mine. It's a Brewer design. The OP's Yachtworld link is my 48. Mine were good designs built to CL's standards whih at the timne were not very high. The ballast was cast iron as far as I know. CL was an unusual yard in that the sons of the founder ran they yard and at least one was a college educated NA. His name was But Yang Lo, good old But Yang. They did all their own engineering. I did no structural drawings for them at all. In the end I thought it was becoming a problem as I noticed some changes to the designs, for instance they built the CL 35 with a deck stepped mast and I cleary designed a keel stepped mast, An angry exchange of letters followed. I could see problem on the horizon so I chose not to do anymore boats with them.

#24 boomer

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:29 PM

There was a Pedrick designed 41' next to us on one of our haul outs. Looked great on a paper and in ad copy,up close was an entirely different story.

#25 Rasputin22

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

Joli:
Those are old rumors and I spent a lot of time in Taiwan yards and never saw burlap being used. Most Taiwan hulls were massivley laid up with mat and roving. If there was one consistant problem with most of the Taiwan yards it was that "when in doubt add more laminate". I think the longevity and resale of almost all of my Taiwan boats proves that there were many good builders there, some better than others.

The Cheoy Lee pictured is not mine. It's a Brewer design. The OP's Yachtworld link is my 48. Mine were good designs built to CL's standards whih at the timne were not very high. The ballast was cast iron as far as I know. CL was an unusual yard in that the sons of the founder ran they yard and at least one was a college educated NA. His name was But Yang Lo, good old But Yang. They did all their own engineering. I did no structural drawings for them at all. In the end I thought it was becoming a problem as I noticed some changes to the designs, for instance they built the CL 35 with a deck stepped mast and I cleary designed a keel stepped mast, An angry exchange of letters followed. I could see problem on the horizon so I chose not to do anymore boats with them.


I had the pleasure of meeting BL at the FLIBS show a few years ago. I was doing the 3d modelling for one of Cheoy Lee's designers based here in the States who had been referring to him in our conversations as 'Butt Yank' which I thought was just a rude uncomplimentary derisive nickname. That had bothered me somewhat, but I was appalled when the designer introduced me and then actually called him Butt Yank to his face. The look on my face didn't go unnoticed and it wasn't until later that was told that But Yang was indeed the name.

#26 Bob Perry

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

The very first boat brochures I ever sent for were Cheoy Lees. The dealer lived on Mercer Island where I lived. I sent him a letter, "Please send me all your brochures." He called me on the phone. " I'm just a kid." We had a chat. He sent me all his brochures. So I have a soft spot for the CL boats. When CL hired me to design for them I thought I was hot shit. I was honored. I went to Hong Kong. But that's another long story.

#27 SemiSalt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:12 PM

This is the Cheoy Lee "Clipper 48" One of my first boat maintenance gigs was onboard her. Used to belong to Buffett.

http://www.cheoyleea...sc/Euphoria.htm

Posted Image


The Clippers were designed by Luders. They have FG hulls and decks. Mostly built in the late '60s, I think.

#28 Bob Perry

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:35 PM

Ted Brewer worked for Luders during the time the CL's came out of that office. So technically Semi is correct. But to me they are Ted's work.

#29 SemiSalt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

When I was in Hong Kong (1970, on R&R from RVN), the Star Ferries running from HK to Kowloon were built by CL, according to plate mounted somewhere visible. I always imagined they had a yard for large commercial projects as well as the yacht building business.

#30 Bob Perry

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:10 PM

Semi:
The only sign I recall on the Star ferries was the one warning passengers about pick pockets.

#31 WHL

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:03 PM

Someone sure made a pigs ear out of the brightwork below decks on that Ebay CL48. It looks like they were is a rush to "gloss over" what was there !!

Having lived for many years in HK, I enjoyed sailing on a number of Cheoy Lee's cruisers. ( Offshore 27 - a bit like a folk boat but with keel hung rudder, Bermuda 30 ketch, 35 ketch I think it was a Robb design)

Attached File  Cheoy Lee offshore 27 stern strbd qtr.jpg   58.46K   14 downloads
Attached File  CheoyLee Bermuda 30.jpg   29.02K   17 downloads
Attached File  Cheoy Lee 35-sm.jpg   412.9K   15 downloads

#32 SemiSalt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:16 PM

The advertising copy for the Bermuda 30 said the design was "modified Herreshoff." I later decided that meant "enlarged H-28."

#33 boomer

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:56 AM

Yup pretty much....from one of many websites on the CL Bermuda 30.

The Choey Lee Offshore 31 was a rework of the Bermuda 30, which was a rework of the Herreshoff H-28. They were built in wood and glass. While the H-28 was a wonderful boat for its day, the wooden Offshore 31's and Bermuda 30's violated Herreshoffs cautions about raising the sheer, and adding a doghouse. The H-28's were intended to be constructed of light materials with minimal interiors, while the wooden Cheoy Lees had comparatively heavy planking, decks, and interiors.

Depending on who you believe, ballasting was reduced to compensate for the extra weight, injuring stability and motion comfort, and the sail area was reduced to compensate for the reduced stability. That combination resulted in a boat that reportedly was not as good in lighter air or heavier conditions than the H-28 that they were based on.

The problem got much worse with the glass boats as their hull weights went up greatly over the wooden boats and their ballast weight was further reduced. They also went to iron and concrete ballast further reducing stability. I have sailed some of these and they are useless in light to moderate conditions and not very good in heavier going. They don't up wind worth a darn (while the original H-28 sailed remarkably well for a long keeled ketch).

Build quality was sketchy and a proper restoration would leave little more than the somewhat sloppily laid up hull. You could build a boat from scratch and end up with a much nicer boat than restore an Offshore 31 that has not been maintained.



#34 Bob Perry

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:57 AM

Royalties?
We don't need no steenkin' royalties.

#35 boomer

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:58 AM

Sad but true.

#36 Mung Breath

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:42 AM

Joli:
Those are old rumors and I spent a lot of time in Taiwan yards and never saw burlap being used. Most Taiwan hulls were massivley laid up with mat and roving. If there was one consistant problem with most of the Taiwan yards it was that "when in doubt add more laminate". I think the longevity and resale of almost all of my Taiwan boats proves that there were many good builders there, some better than others.

The Cheoy Lee pictured is not mine. It's a Brewer design. The OP's Yachtworld link is my 48. Mine were good designs built to CL's standards whih at the timne were not very high. The ballast was cast iron as far as I know. CL was an unusual yard in that the sons of the founder ran they yard and at least one was a college educated NA. His name was But Yang Lo, good old But Yang. They did all their own engineering. I did no structural drawings for them at all. In the end I thought it was becoming a problem as I noticed some changes to the designs, for instance they built the CL 35 with a deck stepped mast and I cleary designed a keel stepped mast, An angry exchange of letters followed. I could see problem on the horizon so I chose not to do anymore boats with them.


Bob, I consider it a treasure to yachtsman that you are so ego-nuetral to balance design from execution in your old age! No stroking intended but I can't help admire your candid, objective differentiation between the two. Thanks for the continued education.

#37 Balder

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:44 AM

Well I know it's not an apples : apples comparison - but the Cheoy Lee Fast Cat ferry we ride on here recently hit a similar sized metal monohull in the port quarter and the mono was sunk with significant loss of life. The glass Cheoy Lee sustained only moderate damage to one of the bows! All passenger made it home. Seems like they know how to make something strong.

#38 Bob Perry

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 04:30 AM

Mungster:
I have no idea what you said but I sense that it was good. So thank you. I'll just continue doing what I think you think I am doing.

Me? ego neutral? Try saying that to my face!

#39 Chris N

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:12 AM

I own an older Cheoy Lee (1966 Offshore 40) and they are all solidly built. This 1980 model must be one of the last sailing yachts they did before they decided there was more money in gin palaces. I mention "solidly built" because that's the one factor not visible in the pics.

As for maintenance at the time of sale, I really cannot believe that the seller would have spent alot on revarnishing just to take the pics. I'm convinced the photos reflect a genuinely well-maintained yacht.

OK, so maybe the engine is seized.. At this price, you can justify replacing it..

#40 Chris N

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:20 AM


It says "hull material...fiberglass"...is that an error?


A lot of the early Cheoy Lee boats were glass hulls with wooden decking and/or houses. What could possibly go wrong?


With all due respect, this just isn't true..

#41 kdh

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

I own an older Cheoy Lee (1966 Offshore 40) and they are all solidly built. This 1980 model must be one of the last sailing yachts they did before they decided there was more money in gin palaces. I mention "solidly built" because that's the one factor not visible in the pics.

As for maintenance at the time of sale, I really cannot believe that the seller would have spent alot on revarnishing just to take the pics. I'm convinced the photos reflect a genuinely well-maintained yacht.

OK, so maybe the engine is seized.. At this price, you can justify replacing it..


The Rhodes Reliant is a great looking boat no matter who builds it.

I used to sail a Cheoy Lee version. Other than being dismasted in calm seas we had no problems.

Posted Image

Posted Image

#42 Joli

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:28 PM

Bridge?

#43 TQA

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 02:02 PM



It says "hull material...fiberglass"...is that an error?


A lot of the early Cheoy Lee boats were glass hulls with wooden decking and/or houses. What could possibly go wrong?


With all due respect, this just isn't true..


Hmm well in my boat hunt I looked at two boats that the owners described as Cheoy Lee built that had wooden cabin sides. Nicely rotted in one case and concealed under some recently applied glass cloth.

#44 kdh

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

Bridge?


One of the shroud hounds parted from the mast from dry rot.

A chartered boat. We took it out the next year with a mast furler. A bad choice, to my eye.

Posted Image

#45 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:09 AM

I had a customer call me out to look at a project once. It was a 100ft+/- Custom Cheoy Lee yawl. She had gone into a shipyard in Bayou La Batre AL for a bow thruster installation. Job was completed, she tanked up and left for Florida. First thing that happened docking in Key West the thruster foundation broke loose, shiipyard said 'bring her back we'll fix it right up'. So back to Alabama, they put her right into the slings and picked her up,,,,,with full tanks. :o The hull pulled away from all the bulkheads and stiffeners allowing diesel and freshwater to flood the boat. They wanted us to try and put humpty back together again.. We took the job on a strict T&M basis but it was quickly decided that the hull was a total loss. Now this was an much older boat but the very interesting thing, when we took hull samples, she was constructed entirely of Chopped Strand Mat.. Not a stitch of roving in the entire boat. Never had much faith in CL's after that.

#46 slap

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:07 AM

I had a customer call me out to look at a project once. It was a 100ft+/- Custom Cheoy Lee yawl. She had gone into a shipyard in Bayou La Batre AL for a bow thruster installation. Job was completed, she tanked up and left for Florida. First thing that happened docking in Key West the thruster foundation broke loose, shiipyard said 'bring her back we'll fix it right up'. So back to Alabama, they put her right into the slings and picked her up,,,,,with full tanks. :o The hull pulled away from all the bulkheads and stiffeners allowing diesel and freshwater to flood the boat. They wanted us to try and put humpty back together again.. We took the job on a strict T&M basis but it was quickly decided that the hull was a total loss. Now this was an much older boat but the very interesting thing, when we took hull samples, she was constructed entirely of Chopped Strand Mat.. Not a stitch of roving in the entire boat. Never had much faith in CL's after that.



From: http://astro.temple..../rr/history.htm

(About the Cheoy Lee Rhodes Reliant and Offshore 40)

- The Rhodes Reliants were built as Rhodes specified, using a mat/woven roving combination fiberglass lay-up. The Offshore 40 was built with fiberglass mat only (recommended by Lloyds). There are only a few reports of blistering for either hull. The different lay-up plans (woven roving vs. mat) were also used on the deck moldings as well as the bonding straps joining the hull with the deck.



#47 Cruisin Loser

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:46 AM

We had one of the late 1970's Richards designed Offshore 41's. Beautiful lines, pretty pretty boat. Flexible doesn't even begin to describe. She had a deck stepped mast and, due to the big open layout and circular dinette, NO bulkheads in way of the the chainplates. The yard didn't bother trying to bond the cabinets and furniture to the hull, it just sort of floated around.

She came with the toerail drips pre-installed, until we were done rebedding all of the hardware she was truly a Cheoy Leaky. A turning block pulled out of the toerail in about 20 kts upwind under #3. Still, I loved that boat. Until her, I only got on boats to go to starting lines, I learned to love cruising from that gal.

Parts of the deck were apparently cored with potting soil, and you could easily recover a lost stainless screw from the bilge with a magnet, but damn, she was pretty.

The slightly older ones were probably better made, IIRC Sailman's brother has a Rhodes Reliant, and those have a good rep.

She's probably the reason I own a Hinckley. I loved that boat, and just wanted her made a little better. I'm not saying she was bad, she was just built with cosmetic, as opposed to structural, priorities. She was much bigger inside than my SW-42, but Sparky inspires confidence in a blow.

#48 Bob Perry

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:47 PM

CL:
"Potting soil"? Funny you should say that. I was hired by a young guy to inspect a cheap Taiwan boat he had bought without a survey on the East Coast and shipped to my marina. He stole the boat but it was in really bad shape. I don't know what the orginal deck core was but what was left of it fell out looking like old coffee grounds. Potting soil would be close. He claimed he could "re-core" the deck. I told him that I was dubious. Now four years later the boat is stil sitting in the yard with no sign of any work being done. I told the guy, maybe 35 years old, to run away from the boat as quickly as possible.

#49 islandplanet

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:39 AM

Hurricane damaged boat?
That would be a question I'd ask. Everything has been repainted, new varnish everywhere, new interior upholstery, rebuilt engine. It's in the Gulf of Mexico. I'd get an abstact of title if it was previously CG documented. Caveat Emptor.




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