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#1 Reht

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:31 PM

So, here we are a few days into the ISAF Annual Conference in Ireland. Does anyone have any news or stories of what's been/being discussed?

There are plenty of big discussions going on, let those of us who can't be there hear something!

#2 Sharpend

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:36 AM

Well Dave Kellett has decided to make a pitch for the top dog's role.

link http://www.sail-worl...d=0&tickerCID=0

#3 moody frog

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

So, here we are a few days into the ISAF Annual Conference in Ireland. Does anyone have any news or stories of what's been/being discussed?

There are plenty of big discussions going on, let those of us who can't be there hear something!


You should know everything here: http://www.sailing.o...erence-blog.php

or so do they say ;)

#4 Cobra 524

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:31 AM

Aparently a deal is on the table for the kites and windsurfers to share the medals.

http://www.sail-worl...rokered?/103522

Does this make sense to anyone else?

#5 Dixie

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:58 AM

Out of curiosity do the US Sailing annual meetings and the ISAF Annual Conference usually overlap?

#6 dogwatch

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:44 AM

Aparently a deal is on the table for the kites and windsurfers to share the medals.


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#7 JimC

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:06 AM

The kite board medal share is really odd. By restricting it to teams of two and 16 entries it will become just another rich first world nations event, especially since a small sailing nation might get one Olympic medal class sailor every now and then, but the chances of getting two at the same time must be miniscule.

#8 Rohanoz

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:25 AM

Even stranger that they have come up with this scenario.
Are the kiteboarders concerned they won't be able to fill the event they are entitled to? (a position obtained as a result of the last vote)

#9 Presuming Ed

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:41 AM

Political fudge. Trying to keep everybody as happy as possible. Bound to fall apart by the time Council meets.

#10 dcbsheb

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:33 AM

There is a resolution being voted on by the full Council to bring back the Star and Women's Match Racing. Not sure what diciplines they would replace.

#11 Reht

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

The kite/windsurf deal seems a little silly. Big nations will get teams of 2-3 men and the same number of women in each class then just pick the top 2 to go to the games. Developing nations (in terms of a sailing program) will have to hope they get 2 people who can even qualify. 16 nations per event, I'd be surprised if there were more than 20 nations total in the 2 events compared to ~40 this year for men's RS:X alone. Never mind the formula system that kiting is talking about which makes the gear possibly as much a factor in results as the sailor...
Personally I think kiting still has to develop a little more, a solid set of rules, a basic youth stream, etc. I could see it being more viable come 2020. Heck, 10 years ago kiteboards were nearly unheard of around most of the world...

As to the star or women's match racing coming back, unless they thin out some other events there's no room. Does anyone think any of the events would be under threat?

Anyway, we'll know more come the end of the week...

#12 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:40 PM

Out of curiosity do the US Sailing annual meetings and the ISAF Annual Conference usually overlap?

Not usually. Usually, the US Sailing meeting is a week or two ahead of the ISAF Conference.

#13 Presuming Ed

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:28 AM

No more 3 boat team racing worlds?

https://sites.google...mracingworlds-1

#14 PeterHuston

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:34 PM

No more 3 boat team racing worlds?

https://sites.google...mracingworlds-1


Do I read this correctly that the notion seems to be the ISAF Team Race Worlds may now be a two keelboat per team event?

If so, doesn't that basically mean it is just two match races taking place on the same starting line?

#15 JimC

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:29 PM

According to ISAF blog the motion to change the classes for Rio failed to get 75% vote iin favour, so events remain as decided in May.

#16 forss

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

ISAF Connect to Sailing

3 minutes ago


Regulation 23.1.4 has been approved with the following amendment.

Men's Board - RS:X
Women's Board - RS:X
Men's One Person Dinghy - Laser
Women's One Person Dinghy - Laser Radial
Men's 2nd One Person Dinghy - Finn
Men's Skiff - 49er
Women's Skiff – 49erFX
Men's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Women's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Mixed Two Person Multihull – Nacra 17
ISAF Host - Daniel Smith:


So, in summary... At Rio 2016 we will see Men's and Women's Board - RS:X

#17 dcbsheb

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

ISAF Connect to Sailing

3 minutes ago


Regulation 23.1.4 has been approved with the following amendment.

Men's Board - RS:X
Women's Board - RS:X
Men's One Person Dinghy - Laser
Women's One Person Dinghy - Laser Radial
Men's 2nd One Person Dinghy - Finn
Men's Skiff - 49er
Women's Skiff – 49erFX
Men's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Women's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Mixed Two Person Multihull – Nacra 17
ISAF Host - Daniel Smith:


So, in summary... At Rio 2016 we will see Men's and Women's Board - RS:X


Trying to make any sense of the decisions ISAF makes would drive a person crazy!

#18 Reht

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

There are lots of people asking ISAF for reasoning on this one, I'd be surprised if we see it. I think it's a good thing, gives kiting 4 more years to develop further, get themselves sorted out and then come back at the Olympics with a much better plan laid out.

#19 dcbsheb

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

I totally agree, and am not quite sure how they got in there in the first place. I don't know who slipped something into the water everyone was drinking back in May, but they made some very questionable decisions back then. At least they realized one of them and have, for now, fixed it.

#20 Reht

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:39 PM

The unfortunate part of all this is that it's only going to make worse in some respects what was already a tenuous relationship between windsurfers and kiters. At least those with big dreams.

#21 ojfd

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

Trying to make any sense of the decisions ISAF makes would drive a person crazy!


It was decided by MNAs voting.

#22 dcbsheb

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:06 PM

And the US MNA is as hard to figure out as any when it comes to some of the decisions it makes.

#23 KiwiJoker

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:33 AM

Trying to make any sense of the decisions ISAF makes would drive a person crazy!


It was decided by MNAs voting.


In this case it was a very popular vote by the MNA's, overriding a previous committee vote to stick with the kiteboard decision.

For a taste of the arcane, bureaucratic and spincter-tight mumbo-jumbo ISAF indulges in check out the almost impenetrable press release distributed to media today. Would make sense, after two or three head-scratching perusals, to anyone who sails but heaven help the sports editor of the Dubuque Telegraph Herald and his ilk.

And we endlessly debate here why sailing is not more popular!

Anyway right and might triumphed on the RSX decision. Not so the vote for president. It went to Carlo Croce of Italy. A no-brainer after the Euro-centric delegates voted to eliminate Australia's Dave Kellett in an early round of voting. I'm not familiar with Croce's track record but I know Kellett as a plain-speaking, sensible, no-bullshit active sailor and administrator who campaigned hard for the post.


2012 ISAF Annual Conference Concludes In Dun Laoghaire, Ireland


Saturday 10 November 2012

After three days of meetings, the ISAF Annual Conference drew to a close today as the final decisions affecting the sport moving forward were made.


Hosted in Dun Laoghaire, Ireland, hundreds of delegates gathered from 1 November 2012 to discuss sailing across the world.



Olympic Events And Equipment


The Olympic events and equipment was high on the agenda of the ISAF Council and after hearing the reports from the 2012 ISAF events and the London 2012 Olympic Sailing Competition, business moved on to discussing submissions.


23 submissions relating to the events and equipment for Rio 2016 were received by ISAF in advance of the Conference. In accordance with the ISAF Regulations, before the detail of any of these particular submissions could be discussed, Council were required to vote on a motion to re-open the debate on the subject. The Regulations specify that 75% of members must agree to the motion.


The submissions were presented as six proposals and Council asked to vote on them in terms of the specific changes they proposed. The first proposal grouped together the submissions that only dealt with men's kiteboarding and women's kiteboarding (020-12, 025-12, 027-12, 050-12, 051-12, 052-12, 053-12, 054-12, 055-12, 056-12, 057-12, 058-12 and 062-12). 26 Council members voted in favour and 12 were against.


Proposal 2, which featured Submission 063-12, related to Men's Kiteboarding, Women's Kiteboarding and 2nd One Person Dinghy - Finn. 14 Council members voted in favour and 23 were against and 1 abstained.


Proposals 3, 4, 5 & 6 relating to Submissions 064-12, 065-12, 071-12 and 094-12 respectively did not receive the required proposer and seconder around the table so were not considered.


With 38 possible votes, the 75% requirement was not achieved on either proposal so the events and equipment as approved in May 2012 remain for Rio 2016.


However, at the ISAF General Assembly part of the business for the 106 Member National Authorities (MNAs) who were present was to review any regulations made or amended in any substantive way by Council since the last Ordinary Meeting which was in November 2011.


ISAF had been notified of three amendments proposed by MNAs which concerned the first two lines of Regulation 23.1.4 (Men's and Women's Kiteboarding).


As defined in the Articles of ISAF, decisions at the General Assembly shall be taken by a simple majority of votes of those present and entitled to vote. There were 114 possible voters, including the ISAF President and Vice-Presidents.



After a lengthy debate the MNAs approved the first proposal which reinstated Men’s and Women’s Boards – RS:X.


ISAF Regulation 23.1.4 now reads:


Men's Board - RS:X
Women's Board - RS:X
Men's One Person Dinghy - Laser
Women's One Person Dinghy - Laser Radial
Men's 2nd One Person Dinghy - Finn
Men's Skiff - 49er
Women's Skiff – 49erFX
Men's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Women's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Mixed Two Person Multihull – Nacra 17


All other changes to the ISAF Regulations were approved.



Other ISAF Council Decisions


In accordance with ISAF Regulation 23.1.5, ISAF approved four core events and their equipment for the 2020 Olympic Sailing Competition - The Men's One Person Dinghy - Laser, Women's One Person Dinghy - Laser Radial, Men's Skiff - 49er and Women's Skiff - 49erFX.


In order to bring some of the best young match racing talent around the world to one place, ISAF Council approved a new ISAF Youth Match Racing World Championship to become part of the ISAF family of events.


The ISAF Youth Sailing World Championship will head to Al Musannah Sports City, Oman in 2016 after ISAF Council voted in favour of the venue, subject to a successful site visit and satisfactory contractual arrangements. Cork, Ireland was approved to host the 2014 ISAF Women’s Match Racing World Championship subject to a successful site visit and satisfactory contractual arrangements.


London 2012 Olympic Sailing Manager Rob Andrews was awarded the ISAF Presidents Development Award in recognition of his tireless work to move the sport forward. From creating an official spectator venue to on water management, sports presentation and television production Rob was at the heart of a hugely successful sailing event which set a new standard for the future.


ISAF Class status was awarded to the J/111, Melges 20, RS100 and Swan 60 subject to them signing the ISAF Class agreement and satisfactory building specification.


Recommendations from the Racing Rules Committee on changes to the ISAF Case and Call Books were approved. These will be available early 2013.


ISAF President Göran Petersson concluded the Council meeting by paying tribute to the host town Dun Laoghaire and presented Irish Sailing Association President Niamh McCutcheon with an ISAF ships clock.


The 2013 ISAF Annual Conference will head to Muscat, Oman from 7-16 November.


Full details of all the decisions made at the ISAF Annual Conference will be published in the minutes of the meetings for the ISAF Council and all ISAF Committees, which will be published on the ISAF Meetings microsite at www.sailing.org/meetings in the coming weeks.

Contact


ISAF Communications Department
Tel: + 44 2380 635 111
Fax: + 44 2380 635 789
Email: marketing@isaf.co.uk


Notes for Editors


The ISAF Annual Conference brings together the ISAF Council, Committees and Commissions along with other leading figures from the world of sailing to debate, discuss and decide upon the key issues in the sailing world.


Submissions – proposals to either change an existing ISAF policy or introduce a new policy in the sport – are received in advance from ISAF Member National Authorities (MNAs), ISAF Classes, Committee Chairmen and the Executive Committee covering many aspects of the sport.


The Submissions are debated throughout the week and final recommendations are made to the ISAF Council.


It is at this meeting that Council, chaired by the ISAF President, make the final decisions on all submissions. Along with the President, the Council is made up of seven Vice-Presidents, two Officers of Honour (non-voting), the Treasurer (non-voting), twenty-eight appointed members (representing each of the regional groups of sailing nations), and representatives of the Oceanic and Offshore Committee, ISAF Classes Committee, Athletes’ Commission and Women's Forum.


After reviewing and taking in to consideration all the Committee recommendations Council will decide whether each Submission is accepted, rejected or deferred for further consideration. It is then the job of the ISAF Executive Committee to put the decisions into practice working with the ISAF Secretariat team.



#24 Gouvernail

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:41 AM

Shouldn't this thread be in SA or GA??

ISAF website link

#25 fraser@guthries.co.nz

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:49 AM

The correct decision in my view. The earlier decision to include Kites always looked ill-considered by members who lacked the expertise. It is great they have made this decision early so Board sailors can prepare with certainty.

Kites always looked unprepared for inclusion and while they may feel hard done by here, I think this decision is right for Kites in the long run.

#26 PeterHuston

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:53 AM

The correct decision in my view. The earlier decision to include Kites always looked ill-considered by members who lacked the expertise. It is great they have made this decision early so Board sailors can prepare with certainty.

Kites always looked unprepared for inclusion and while they may feel hard done by here, I think this decision is right for Kites in the long run.


The Olympics need Kites more than Kites need the Olympics.

#27 dogwatch

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:04 AM

The kite proposal was a half-baked plan to ride on the growth of recreational kiting. There are simple issues to incorporation of kite course racing into Olympic sailing that were entirely unconsidered, such as the fact that kiting is banned at a number of venues that form the Olympic regatta circuit. The lack of a defined OD class made nonsense on stilts of claims of opening a new sport to nations that lack a sailing history. If kiting were in for Rio a huge development arms race would have kicked off and only the best-funded sailing nations would have been in the hunt for medals.

Kite course racing is in its infancy and anyone who both wants it to develop and knows anything about the intensity and resources that the Olympics bring to a class will realise that giving it time to develop without Olympic pressures increases the chances of its development as a sustainable sport. Shirley Robertson's fine piece for Mailsail brought that home very clearly and also made it apparent that at least some of those currently involved in kite course racing were already wondering whether getting what you wish for is always a blessing.

Thankfully sanity has prevailed. Bummer that the board is the ridiculous RS-X but that was inevitable.

#28 Reht

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:13 AM


The correct decision in my view. The earlier decision to include Kites always looked ill-considered by members who lacked the expertise. It is great they have made this decision early so Board sailors can prepare with certainty.

Kites always looked unprepared for inclusion and while they may feel hard done by here, I think this decision is right for Kites in the long run.


The Olympics need Kites more than Kites need the Olympics.


The kites need to get some more organization in place before they can be included in the Olympics. No proper youth stream, the sport is banned in many locations around the world, and they were proposing a formula equipment which could have very well led to an arms race (which is completely against what ISAF looks for in an Olympic class). Do you think they would let windsurfing formula kit race in the games?

Kiting is a great recreational sport, don't get me wrong I love going kiting. But the racing part of it has hardly begun to develop, give it another 4 years to figure itself out and you might have a viable sport...

#29 Bunchofgrapes

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:36 PM

What a f--k the women's match racing is gone. It was far and away the best event televisually at Weymouth. (at least the finals anyways) I know that had a lot to do with the breeze direction and strength , but just sayin'. Seems like it could've gone another Olympic cycle?

#30 dachopper

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:49 PM

What a load of absolute Bollocks.... According to Sail Melbournes' entrylist , http://www.eventoffi...m/entrylist.asp there are more kitesurfing entries from more countries than any other sailing category by a long shot. If the sport wasn't ready for it, then this wouldn't be the case, there has been several world tours with multiple stops on the circuit calender all around the globe for as long as I can remember, probably 10 years now. Who held the sailing speed record this year.... a kitesurfer. There is a much bigger market for kitesurfing these days than there is windsurfing, at least in my country, and we have the most coastline of any country on earth.... If you don't understand the sport and think it's immature and that it will take 20 years to " mature" .... then stick to your windsurfing... but the rest of the world wants to see these things in action !

#31 Merde2

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:18 PM

Why are the ISAF votes closed and secret? Why not have the MNAs votes made public so that the national authorities can be held accountable to the sailors that they represent?

#32 dogwatch

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:20 PM

^

Bigger market for kitesurfing......sure. Same here. Doesn't mean they are course racing and that's what we are talking about.

#33 stinger

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:45 PM

Rio is too light a wind venue for kites. Too many days would be cancelled.

#34 gregw

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:56 PM

So it's great to see the sailboards back in.

Now can we get some more sanity and have some keelboats back! Having sailing with only skiffs and no keel boats would be like having Track and Field, but with no Track events.

#35 connorgodfrey

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:10 PM

(Maybe I missed something, there are a lot of posts,) but am I the only person who doesn't understand why they can't just have both kites and windsurfers? If there are too many medals, just combine men with women somewhere. I don't know how physical ability plays into each individual class, but as 420 (etc) sailor I think it is extremely sexist to segregate women in all of these classes anyway. Assuming that it does not come down to weight or muscle, doing so is a direct insult to their mental ability.

#36 Christian

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:32 PM

(Maybe I missed something, there are a lot of posts,) but am I the only person who doesn't understand why they can't just have both kites and windsurfers? If there are too many medals, just combine men with women somewhere. I don't know how physical ability plays into each individual class, but as 420 (etc) sailor I think it is extremely sexist to segregate women in all of these classes anyway. Assuming that it does not come down to weight or muscle, doing so is a direct insult to their mental ability.


That is a very false assumption

#37 Reht

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:38 PM

What a load of absolute Bollocks.... According to Sail Melbournes' entrylist , http://www.eventoffi...list.asp there are more kitesurfing entries from more countries than any other sailing category by a long shot. If the sport wasn't ready for it, then this wouldn't be the case, there has been several world tours with multiple stops on the circuit calender all around the globe for as long as I can remember, probably 10 years now. Who held the sailing speed record this year.... a kitesurfer. There is a much bigger market for kitesurfing these days than there is windsurfing, at least in my country, and we have the most coastline of any country on earth.... If you don't understand the sport and think it's immature and that it will take 20 years to " mature" .... then stick to your windsurfing... but the rest of the world wants to see these things in action !


I hope you weren't directing that at me, I'm pretty sure I specifically said that they would have a much better shot in 4 years (who said anything about 20?)... We're looking at course racing, not outright speed. Just because something is fast, or popular as a recreational activity doesn't mean it's ready for the Olympics (can you imagine what the Olympics would be like if that were the case?). I was reading through parts of the proposals and rules for kiteboarding, I specifically remember a passage that was along the lines of "a minimum skill would have to be proven because a beginner's mistake could ruin a professional's chance". So you're going to restrict this racing to only those who can prove (there was no quantifiable level mentioned) that they are "good enough"? Honestly, course racing for kites sounds like a developing discipline. Kiting has all sorts of competitions in other disciplines and a recreational basis certainly and that can be seen at most beaches that can accommodate kites where it isn't banned, but that doesn't mean that course racing is ready for the big time. As soon as it goes Olympic for sure you'll see a huge influx of new would-be competitors, you better have an excellent system in place to accommodate them.

So it's great to see the sailboards back in.

Now can we get some more sanity and have some keelboats back! Having sailing with only skiffs and no keel boats would be like having Track and Field, but with no Track events.


The problem with putting a keelboat event in (as I see it) is the lack of medals awarded to sailing, to get any event not currently on the list in you'd need to take something else off...

(Maybe I missed something, there are a lot of posts,) but am I the only person who doesn't understand why they can't just have both kites and windsurfers? If there are too many medals, just combine men with women somewhere. I don't know how physical ability plays into each individual class, but as 420 (etc) sailor I think it is extremely sexist to segregate women in all of these classes anyway. Assuming that it does not come down to weight or muscle, doing so is a direct insult to their mental ability.


As a 420 sailor you're probably still a junior sailor, in all likelihood the average girl you see racing a 420 is not much smaller/weaker than the average boy you see racing them. Take a full grown adult male against a full grown adult female and you're looking at exceptionally different sizes/weights/strengths. In windsurfing and kiting especially someone significantly heavier and/or stronger will be able to keep a bigger kite under control, bigger kite = more power = faster, same idea as any other sailing class (well, starting from more righting moment = more power). Have you seen girls try to race a full rig 49er? I have and they're struggling long before the men, same with windsurfers and kiters the girls are sizing down significantly before the guys and are in general a little slower. The only fair way you could "combine" the events was covered in one submission this year, to make a 2-fleet event, a men's and women's fleet in each event with combined scores for the countries. Unfortunately then you start hitting the athlete limit for the games, they could only have 16 nations for each event when they doubled up the number of competitors in the events.

#38 OzScoutSailor

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:49 AM


  • So it's great to see the sailboards back in.

    Now can we get some more sanity and have some keelboats back! Having sailing with only skiffs and no keel boats would be like having Track and Field, but with no Track events.

Are you kidding? The Stars and the Elliots had the least participation in the last Olympics (16 and 12 nations respectively). The keel boats are the least representative of nations and given their size and weight are more expensive to get to an international location. I disagreed with the previous descision to replace wind surfing with kite but the removal of keel boats I believe is an inevitable fate, which is more likely to result in better accessability for sailing. Even a second hand Star can easily be AUD $25000. Dinghies are cheaper, easier to transport and therefore easier to run as a campaign, . Even a new 49er is only a few thousand more, depending on final fit. As for the return of the cats, same reason AC are using cats: fast spectator friendly boats.

#39 SPORTSCAR

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:57 AM

What a load of absolute Bollocks.... According to Sail Melbournes' entrylist , http://www.eventoffi...list.asp there are more kitesurfing entries from more countries than any other sailing category by a long shot. If the sport wasn't ready for it, then this wouldn't be the case, there has been several world tours with multiple stops on the circuit calender all around the globe for as long as I can remember, probably 10 years now. Who held the sailing speed record this year.... a kitesurfer. There is a much bigger market for kitesurfing these days than there is windsurfing, at least in my country, and we have the most coastline of any country on earth.... If you don't understand the sport and think it's immature and that it will take 20 years to " mature" .... then stick to your windsurfing... but the rest of the world wants to see these things in action !


You would have to conclude that the large Sail Melbourne entry list was driven by the prospect that kiteboarding was looking like being an Olympic discipline at the time the entry was made. Hopefully they will still all come to Melbourne and show ISAF just what they have to offer.

#40 dogwatch

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:00 AM

(Maybe I missed something......I think it is extremely sexist to segregate women in all of these classes anyway.


What you have missed is that the IOC requires sports to provide a 50/50 split of male and female athletes. You are only going to get that with men's and women's events. In theory the Finn. for example,is open to women but you don't see an awful lot of female Finn sailors as there aren't that many women who are a 90Kg ball of muscle.

#41 dogwatch

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:02 AM

RYA statement: welcomes the vote, hopes kites will gain inclusion in the future.

http://www.yachtsand...016-events-vote

#42 moody frog

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:42 AM


Trying to make any sense of the decisions ISAF makes would drive a person crazy!


It was decided by MNAs voting.


In this case it was a very popular vote by the MNA's, overriding a previous committee vote to stick with the kiteboard decision.

For a taste of the arcane, bureaucratic and spincter-tight mumbo-jumbo ISAF indulges in check out the almost impenetrable press release distributed to media today. Would make sense, after two or three head-scratching perusals, to anyone who sails but heaven help the sports editor of the Dubuque Telegraph Herald and his ilk.

And we endlessly debate here why sailing is not more popular!

Anyway right and might triumphed on the RSX decision. Not so the vote for president. It went to Carlo Croce of Italy. A no-brainer after the Euro-centric delegates voted to eliminate Australia's Dave Kellett in an early round of voting. I'm not familiar with Croce's track record but I know Kellett as a plain-speaking, sensible, no-bullshit active sailor and administrator who campaigned hard for the post.






Without having any informed opinion on Croce and Kellett respective abilities for the job.

Croce's credentials (as seen through ISAF members' eyes) are quite significant:

He is the son of Beppe Croce, once top Italian sailing-administrator and a former ISAF president, after whom one of the top ISAF trophies is named.

He is, most of all, a former successful competitor and twice Italian FD representative in the olympics, + many other caps in other classes up to the AC.
As far as I know the "ex-FD" lobby is rather strong in ISAF so....

All together: ....... may be more of a win for the "old school" than for Europe !

In any case: master-strike by the International Raceboard Class to use the rules and reinstate windsurfing through a motion which required a simple majority (as opposed to 75% of votes as in the procedures chosen by other opponents)

#43 Delta Blues

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

Why are the ISAF votes closed and secret? Why not have the MNAs votes made public so that the national authorities can be held accountable to the sailors that they represent?


Charlie Cook and his gang voted for Kites last time around, I wonder what he conspired this time?

#44 catsailordude

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:15 PM

So it's great to see the sailboards back in.

Now can we get some more sanity and have some keelboats back! Having sailing with only skiffs and no keel boats would be like having Track and Field, but with no Track events.


It's great that there are no keel boats in the Olympics. Sailing keel boats may be an enjoyable past time, but it is not a sport, and certainly not an athletic sport. Also, anyone who can sail a dingy, a skiff or a catamaran has all of the skills necessary to sail a keel boat, but the same is not true in reverse. Leaving keel boats out of the Olympics is like having baseball, but not having slow-pitch softball.

What's unfortunate is that it's and "either-or" discussion with kites and boards. Kites should be added as a freestyle event (like the half pipe in snowboarding). If they want to get rid of the sailing events, it should be the 470 men.

#45 dogwatch

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

Kites should be added as a freestyle event (like the half pipe in snowboarding).


Agreed. This from the Kite Course Racing Worlds. Apart from being unrelated to 99.9% of the kite surfing that goes on around the world, as a narrative of a sporting event, it's incomprehensible. The racing is impossible to follow.



#46 bruno

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:52 PM

wow, tactical

#47 NorCalLaser

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:59 PM


So it's great to see the sailboards back in.

Now can we get some more sanity and have some keelboats back! Having sailing with only skiffs and no keel boats would be like having Track and Field, but with no Track events.


It's great that there are no keel boats in the Olympics. Sailing keel boats may be an enjoyable past time, but it is not a sport, and certainly not an athletic sport. Also, anyone who can sail a dingy, a skiff or a catamaran has all of the skills necessary to sail a keel boat, but the same is not true in reverse. Leaving keel boats out of the Olympics is like having baseball, but not having slow-pitch softball.

What's unfortunate is that it's and "either-or" discussion with kites and boards. Kites should be added as a freestyle event (like the half pipe in snowboarding). If they want to get rid of the sailing events, it should be the 470 men.

holy shit, i think i just agreed w/ someone from canuckistan!

#48 Reht

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:19 PM

From what I saw there, already I would have 2 practical concerns:

1. I saw racers who were definitely swimming because they fell off their boards in tacks right before the windward mark. At least in normal sailboat racing that's a high-traffic area, what happens to the human body when it gets hit by one of those fins doing 15-20knts? And these are the best in the world, you'll be seeing a lot more problems with people falling off or crashing kites when you get all the hopefuls in. Unless of course you make it closed, invite-only events with limited registration (of course, kiting is an inclusive sport, they wouldn't want to exclude anybody)...

2. I saw claims (may or my not have originated from "official" sources) about the low-end of these kite races. A lot of this was based on the fact that you could "pump" by running the kite through a sine-wave path causing extra apparent wind. I'd like to see them doing that on that start line without tangles... In fact, I don't think I've seen a video of what could be described as a "light-wind" kite race, always enough to keep those guys powered on.

That video did nothing but reinforce in my mind that course racing on kites could definitely still be figuring out the details.

#49 Quagers

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:21 PM

Sailing keel boats may be an enjoyable past time, but it is not a sport, and certainly not an athletic sport.


Urm really? While it is true that there are several non physical jobs on a keel boat I don't think any of the guys forward of the helm would agree with you! And the Olympics has always used small keel boats which respond to hiking just like a dinghy and therefore will require just as much effort. Sailing the Elliot 6m last month in breeze as bow was as hard work as any Laser beat, and the main trimmer who does even more could barely move by the end of the day.

#50 Dougy the gun

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:40 PM

Keelboats are for people that enjoy sailing but are not any good at it. Get up with the times people. Its a boat handlers world now

#51 Haco

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:47 PM

Hosted in Dun Laoghaire, Ireland, hundreds of delegates gathered from 1 November 2012 to discuss sailing across the world.


"Around the world"

Enough said.

#52 Reht

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

Hosted in Dun Laoghaire, Ireland, hundreds of delegates gathered from 1 November 2012 to discuss sailing across the world.


"Around the world"

Enough said.


Writing "around the world" could easily cause confusion, leading to people thinking it was a meeting of the Volvo guys or the Vendee Globe skippers. Though "across the world" doesn't really roll of the tongue as easily it is still *technically* accurate.

#53 Mambo Kings

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:32 AM

What a complete catastrophe for the sport of sailing.

We had a chance to embrace one of the most exciting spectator disciplines across all the sports in the summer Olympics in Rio and we allowed an arcane, political, opaque group to huddle in smoke filled rooms and utterly blow it for us.

The IOC was thrilled to see sailing enter the 21st century and host kiteboards. The media was licking it lips in anticipation of something new and exciting. Everyone was told, dont worry, its safe, it will need a 75 % super majority to overthrow the decision and what?????

I am a windsurfer and sport boat sailor. I was glad to see sailing embrace kite boarding while they still needed us and while we still had a chance to participate in the halo effect (and the money) that kiteboarding will generate in the Olympics.

It is no good offering to provide venture capital to Facebook once they are profitable and generating cash. You need to back something like this early when they need you. I dont know whether kiteboarding will need us in 2020. What on earth is to stop Kite boarding approaching IOC directly and asking to be a recognized Olympic sport for 2020? IOC could easily accomodate them and tell ISAF that they have been reduced to 8 disciplines. I doubt that ISAF has much credibility left with the IOC, and frankly they dont have much credibility left with me. IOC has a golden opportunity to reduce the outdated influence of ISAF by removing kiteboarding from their sphere. Its a damn shame because the sailing community had a chance to offer kiteboarders so much support.

Would ESPN put kiteboarding and the Heineken siblings on mainstream TV? You bet. Windsurfing ? Not so much.
Would Clean go to Rio to catch some amazing footage of the kiteboarders and the people sailing them? I hope so. Windsurfers?????

Kiteboarding is a young, athletic, demanding, and exciting contemporary sport with some very talented players.
Why on earth were we hoping that the same duffers that excluded cats from Weymouth would do the right thing here? After poor decision making process for two quads in a row, the selection process at ISAF has zero credibility and surely questions will be asked at IOC.

#54 KiwiJoker

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:23 AM



Trying to make any sense of the decisions ISAF makes would drive a person crazy!


It was decided by MNAs voting.


In this case it was a very popular vote by the MNA's, overriding a previous committee vote to stick with the kiteboard decision.

For a taste of the arcane, bureaucratic and spincter-tight mumbo-jumbo ISAF indulges in check out the almost impenetrable press release distributed to media today. Would make sense, after two or three head-scratching perusals, to anyone who sails but heaven help the sports editor of the Dubuque Telegraph Herald and his ilk.

And we endlessly debate here why sailing is not more popular!

Anyway right and might triumphed on the RSX decision. Not so the vote for president. It went to Carlo Croce of Italy. A no-brainer after the Euro-centric delegates voted to eliminate Australia's Dave Kellett in an early round of voting. I'm not familiar with Croce's track record but I know Kellett as a plain-speaking, sensible, no-bullshit active sailor and administrator who campaigned hard for the post.






Without having any informed opinion on Croce and Kellett respective abilities for the job.

Croce's credentials (as seen through ISAF members' eyes) are quite significant:

He is the son of Beppe Croce, once top Italian sailing-administrator and a former ISAF president, after whom one of the top ISAF trophies is named.

He is, most of all, a former successful competitor and twice Italian FD representative in the olympics, + many other caps in other classes up to the AC.
As far as I know the "ex-FD" lobby is rather strong in ISAF so....

All together: ....... may be more of a win for the "old school" than for Europe !

In any case: master-strike by the International Raceboard Class to use the rules and reinstate windsurfing through a motion which required a simple majority (as opposed to 75% of votes as in the procedures chosen by other opponents)


Like I said, I'm reliant on the web for info about Croce.

Here are the best references I could fijnd for Kellett and Croce.

http://www.sailing.org/meetings/generalassembly/Carlo-Croce.php

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=95648&SRCID=0&ntid=88&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0

I'd say Kellett's credentials are stronger. I believe he lost to the Eurocentric core of ISAF, especially the old-boy faction. And probably because he advanced a more forward-looking agenda. That plus the fact that the job of head sherang would have shifted to the Antipodes.

#55 roca

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:09 AM


Kites should be added as a freestyle event (like the half pipe in snowboarding).


Agreed. This from the Kite Course Racing Worlds. Apart from being unrelated to 99.9% of the kite surfing that goes on around the world, as a narrative of a sporting event, it's incomprehensible. The racing is impossible to follow.




100% agree with both posts.
kite racing is not interesting even for kitesurfers, snowboarding should teach something here: if they want to take kitesurfing to olympics and have success, they should run a freestyle competition, that is what this sport is about, what people watch in kiteboard movies, the best known riders, where the sponsors are, the gear people use out there and the manouvers people try when in the water.
Snowboarding experience should be helpful. The huge success of snowboarding in the olympics is mainly in the really popular halfpipe with superstar millionare shaun white winning last 3 golds. Mega sponsor like Burton are there, crowds too.
The racing snowboarding (which is similarly to kite racing less than 1% of the sport) has been cancelled after the first edition of 1998 in favour of a more television friendly parallel race, but it really still is a small small sport, you cannot even find gear anymore if not made by small artisans. The racers are aged and no crowd knows about any of the racers.
The comparison is very true as most of the problems of snowboarding in the olympics where born by FIS (federation international du ski) and their willing to control a sport which should be independent, probably for economical reasons. From the beginning when the superstar of the times terji haakonsen refused to compete in olympics for FIS requesting him to register in their association to today's wiling to keep alive this parallel racing which is now a niche in three or 4 countries in the world controlled by the skiing technicians and countries.
I think kite should be out of ISAF and independent.
My suggestion to kitesurfers is to get rid of ISAF and run their sport following the mood and the interest of their young crowds and the natural development of their sport..

#56 Mambo Kings

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:25 PM


Kites should be added as a freestyle event (like the half pipe in snowboarding).




100% agree with both posts.
Snowboarding should teach something here: if they want to take kitesurfing to olympics and have success, they should run a freestyle competition, that is what this sport is about, what people watch in kiteboard movies, the best known riders, where the sponsors are, the gear people use out there and the manouvers people try when in the water.

I think kite should be out of ISAF and independent.
My suggestion to kitesurfers is to get rid of ISAF and run their sport following the mood and the interest of their young crowds and the natural development of their sport..


I would not be surprised to see this happen, and I think the IOC would welcome them with open arms.

+1 for including freestyle. The freestyle kiteboarding is spectacular.
I would not make it at the expense of course racing though. I think that a really exciting Olympic event would be a multi disciplinary triatholon of kitesurfing with a mix of freestyle and course racing. I disagree with DogWatch slightly here because I watched some course racing in kites and most non-sailing spectators will find it more comprehensible and easier to follow than conventional sailing.Its about getting a great start and then the competitors drag race around the course with the faster boarders passing the slower ones, with passing lanes that are much closer than on a 470. Sometimes its great start vs great board speed,and does the guy with speed but a mediocre start have enough race track to catch the guy with outstanding start and okay but not special speed. Sometimes someone has speed and start and "See ya".
But, YES, freestyle should be included.

#57 Little Bleck

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

Down side to feestyle is the wind requirements are much higher. Also I'm not sure the IOC realy desires any more subjective sports. They have been burned by the figure skating crap fest.

Now they need to abort the POS formula kite idea. BOOO to price fixing!

#58 in_TO

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:52 PM

Sailing keel boats may be an enjoyable past time, but it is not a sport, and certainly not an athletic sport.


You've obviously never sailed a Star or Soling before.

#59 Reht

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

Down side to feestyle is the wind requirements are much higher. Also I'm not sure the IOC realy desires any more subjective sports. They have been burned by the figure skating crap fest.

Now they need to abort the POS formula kite idea. BOOO to price fixing!


I don't think you could really run a "formula" system for boards in the Olympics unless you make it extremely restrictive (but then what's the difference to a one-design similar to the finns or stars?). I really do hope that when they come to decide the 2020 events they take a good look at each event and decide if it's really worth having. Maybe we'll see kites or other newer tech/designs in there.

#60 Joe Mama

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:42 PM

Sink 'em both and make them "Beach sport events".
Make Team racing the event, think of the betting from Joe Six-Pack! The rules are fairly easy to understand, screw the other team around the course and get your boats to the finish. A no-brainer for novice sailingTV audience, you could actually run a full race without commercials.

#61 JMD

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

Sink 'em both and make them "Beach sport events".
Make Team racing the event, think of the betting from Joe Six-Pack! The rules are fairly easy to understand, screw the other team around the course and get your boats to the finish. A no-brainer for novice sailingTV audience, you could actually run a full race without commercials.

Oh yes, Joe 6 Pack would love team racing:
"Why the hell they just sittin' there stopped with those white things a flappin'? Ain't this supposed to be a race?"

#62 cantp1

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:44 PM



So it's great to see the sailboards back in.

Now can we get some more sanity and have some keelboats back! Having sailing with only skiffs and no keel boats would be like having Track and Field, but with no Track events.


It's great that there are no keel boats in the Olympics. Sailing keel boats may be an enjoyable past time, but it is not a sport, and certainly not an athletic sport. Also, anyone who can sail a dingy, a skiff or a catamaran has all of the skills necessary to sail a keel boat, but the same is not true in reverse. Leaving keel boats out of the Olympics is like having baseball, but not having slow-pitch softball.

What's unfortunate is that it's and "either-or" discussion with kites and boards. Kites should be added as a freestyle event (like the half pipe in snowboarding). If they want to get rid of the sailing events, it should be the 470 men.

holy shit, i think i just agreed w/ someone from canuckistan!


+1

Sentimentally, I would've really liked it if the star got back in. It just makes sense to me to have a keel boat, especially when Brazil has all that talent / star power. Want to get people down to the beach to watch yachting? Get Torben or Scheidt in the star on the medal course all day, all week! And the star is VERY physical.

#63 Christian

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:26 AM

Paul Elvstrøm said many years ago that he would like to see all keelboats gone from the olympics as they are boats for old people and that the olympics should be about young athletic people (who should race dinghies).

#64 Thiepval

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:51 PM



  • So it's great to see the sailboards back in.

    Now can we get some more sanity and have some keelboats back! Having sailing with only skiffs and no keel boats would be like having Track and Field, but with no Track events.

Are you kidding? The Stars and the Elliots had the least participation in the last Olympics (16 and 12 nations respectively). The keel boats are the least representative of nations and given their size and weight are more expensive to get to an international location. I disagreed with the previous descision to replace wind surfing with kite but the removal of keel boats I believe is an inevitable fate, which is more likely to result in better accessability for sailing. Even a second hand Star can easily be AUD $25000. Dinghies are cheaper, easier to transport and therefore easier to run as a campaign, . Even a new 49er is only a few thousand more, depending on final fit. As for the return of the cats, same reason AC are using cats: fast spectator friendly boats.


Star class and Womans Match racing have limited entry, nations must qualify at set ISAF events to be able to send a crew to the olympics in those fleets.

Given that almost all sailing teams in Weymouth had AT LEAST one forty foot container in the boat park, the weight of a star never even comes in to the thoughts of the team managers. Elliotts were all supplied equipment anyway, so no-one shipped a boat to Weymouth anyway.

#65 Reht

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

Star class and Womans Match racing have limited entry, nations must qualify at set ISAF events to be able to send a crew to the olympics in those fleets.


As for every sailing event. Your point being?

The match racing turned out to be a huge cost burden on the organizing authority and because the boats had to be supplied at all the world cup events and qualifying events it became a huge expenditure (at least relative to other events), I'm sure this played into the decision. The star is a very physical boat and definitely fits into some if not all aspects of an Olympic class, but here I think it was more of an issue with a limited number of events, we had the multihull and girl's skiff enter the foray, something had to give...

Of course this is all based on what I've heard and read, not all of it necessarily "official"...

#66 Thiepval

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:40 PM


Star class and Womans Match racing have limited entry, nations must qualify at set ISAF events to be able to send a crew to the olympics in those fleets.


As for every sailing event. Your point being?

The match racing turned out to be a huge cost burden on the organizing authority and because the boats had to be supplied at all the world cup events and qualifying events it became a huge expenditure (at least relative to other events), I'm sure this played into the decision. The star is a very physical boat and definitely fits into some if not all aspects of an Olympic class, but here I think it was more of an issue with a limited number of events, we had the multihull and girl's skiff enter the foray, something had to give...

Of course this is all based on what I've heard and read, not all of it necessarily "official"...


Every other sailing event? What other Star event limits entries to one per nation, to a maximumu of 16 boats?

I am not here to defend match racing.

#67 dcbsheb

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:23 AM


Star class and Womans Match racing have limited entry, nations must qualify at set ISAF events to be able to send a crew to the olympics in those fleets.


As for every sailing event. Your point being?

The match racing turned out to be a huge cost burden on the organizing authority and because the boats had to be supplied at all the world cup events and qualifying events it became a huge expenditure (at least relative to other events), I'm sure this played into the decision. The star is a very physical boat and definitely fits into some if not all aspects of an Olympic class, but here I think it was more of an issue with a limited number of events, we had the multihull and girl's skiff enter the foray, something had to give...

Of course this is all based on what I've heard and read, not all of it necessarily "official"...


A huge expenditure to who?

ISAF didn't pay a fucking dime toward the cost of match racing equipment for the Olympic Games. I cant' speak for other World Cup stops, but I can tell you for sure that there was enough revenue from entry fees to cover a large portion of the cost of match racing at the Miami OCR. The problem is, that money went to US Sailing and not to the organization providing the equipment and helping offset the cost of umpires. Entry fee for Women's Match Racing at the past two OCR's was $3000/team time 24 teams. You do the math. Are you telling me with those kind of numbers from entry fees that Match Racing is a financial burden? Less than 10% of that money went toward the acual cost of getting the equipment there and maintaining it all winter.

#68 Reht

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:36 AM



Star class and Womans Match racing have limited entry, nations must qualify at set ISAF events to be able to send a crew to the olympics in those fleets.


As for every sailing event. Your point being?

The match racing turned out to be a huge cost burden on the organizing authority and because the boats had to be supplied at all the world cup events and qualifying events it became a huge expenditure (at least relative to other events), I'm sure this played into the decision. The star is a very physical boat and definitely fits into some if not all aspects of an Olympic class, but here I think it was more of an issue with a limited number of events, we had the multihull and girl's skiff enter the foray, something had to give...

Of course this is all based on what I've heard and read, not all of it necessarily "official"...


Every other sailing event? What other Star event limits entries to one per nation, to a maximumu of 16 boats?

I am not here to defend match racing.


You said "nations must qualify at set ISAF events to be able to send a crew to the olympics in those fleets" every nation with a boat at the Olympics (with the exception of the brits) had to qualify at set events to send that boat to the games, in most cases it was Perth 2011 and then the 2012 worlds. Every event was subject to this, from the windsurfers to the 49ers to the stars.

#69 Thiepval

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:12 PM




Star class and Womans Match racing have limited entry, nations must qualify at set ISAF events to be able to send a crew to the olympics in those fleets.


As for every sailing event. Your point being?

The match racing turned out to be a huge cost burden on the organizing authority and because the boats had to be supplied at all the world cup events and qualifying events it became a huge expenditure (at least relative to other events), I'm sure this played into the decision. The star is a very physical boat and definitely fits into some if not all aspects of an Olympic class, but here I think it was more of an issue with a limited number of events, we had the multihull and girl's skiff enter the foray, something had to give...

Of course this is all based on what I've heard and read, not all of it necessarily "official"...


Every other sailing event? What other Star event limits entries to one per nation, to a maximumu of 16 boats?

I am not here to defend match racing.


You said "nations must qualify at set ISAF events to be able to send a crew to the olympics in those fleets" every nation with a boat at the Olympics (with the exception of the brits) had to qualify at set events to send that boat to the games, in most cases it was Perth 2011 and then the 2012 worlds. Every event was subject to this, from the windsurfers to the 49ers to the stars.


I was responding to OzScoutSailors post which said "The Stars and the Elliots had the least participation in the last Olympics (16 and 12 nations respectively)" and I was pointing out that the fleet size is limited, and that these numbers are not necessarily a reflection on popularity of these classes / events worldwide.

You chose to remove the quote from OzScoutSailor, hence my comments lack context. Had I known you were going to do that, I would have explained my point in a more understandable way.





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