56 replies to this topic

[ahl]

This thread has been around on the Woodenboat forum, but the owner just posted the launch pictures and they are so pretty I thought I'd post them here as well.

Gartside design #160, built by Eric Jespersen.







Thread here: http://forum.woodenb...wl-Construction

More pics here:

[Soñadora]

I don't normally care for the roundy-round trunk cabins, but that one is pretty sweet. And of course, the double-ender attraction goes without saying. Rudder looks 'low performance'.

[Bob Perry]

Nice boat but I'm not keen on all that camber in the cabin top. I woiuld have a hard time standing on that.
I like the sheer.

[Thorvald]

Ports in the hull just don't look right on a traditional looking boat IMHO. Bob's right about that cabintop. MyDash 34's cabintop is like that back by the companionway and it's just about impossible to stand on.

[Bob Perry]

I like the hull deadlights. They say "Hey! I'm not an antique!" It's not fair to judge those hull deadlights on their appearance from the outside. Sure they disturb the lines of the boat and they take away from the traditional look. But you would have to go below and see their effect on the interior and visibility before condeming them. My Swedish client wants hull deadlights also. I don't. But I won't have to live with the boat so the client gets them. If the hull had been painted a darker color they would not be so noticable. But I kind of like that light green. That squared off trailing edge to the keel looks a bit on the slow side to me. But clearly this design is more about looks than speed.

[SemiSalt]

That squared off trailing edge to the keel looks a bit on the slow side to me.

Not quite a Brewer bite.

[Bob Perry]

cap10:
I noticed the same thing in the slide show.
How can you not like a yawl?

[hobot]

I'm not allowed in the WBF.....they use terms that scare me like "eminently sensible".

*shudder*

[Soñadora]

This thread has been around on the Woodenboat forum, but the owner just posted the launch pictures and they are so pretty I thought I'd post them here as well.

Gartside design #160, built by Eric Jespersen.







Thread here: http://forum.woodenb...wl-Construction

this picture makes me wistful for some reason. Contrary to what a lot of other non-PNW'ers think, this is how I see fall/winter there.

[sam_crocker]

I am always impressed with Jesperson's work. Always top notch. But the leading edge of the keel, I never though a keel should be a blunt instrument.

Attached Files

•  Keel.JPG   53.11K   7 downloads

[kdh]

I like the hull deadlights... If the hull had been painted a darker color they would not be so noticeable.

Dark deadlight on dark hull. I don't think trim ever works.

This boat is a sister, but I have the same lights. Right at eye level for me when I'm down below and the starboard one gives Adele a window in the pilot berth.

[SemiSalt]

I am always impressed with Jesperson's work. Always top notch. But the leading edge of the keel, I never though a keel should be a blunt instrument.

It looks to me like the designer needed to get the ballast weight as far forward as possible.

My book on Laurent Giles comments that he often drew keels with profiles somewhat like this with a strong toe on the forward end, and got criticized for it because tank tests said a smoothly raked leading edge worked better. The price of a better-looking keel might be a longer forward overhang, or even a bowsprit.

Having the CoG well forward of the rudder is supposed to give good directional stability (like an arrow). I don't know if that theory only works on the whole boat level, or if having the ballast forward in the keel is good in and of itself.

[Ishmael]

Bob's take on the boat since the last time seems to have mellowed a lot...

Poor little green boat with ugly hull "windows". Sitting there in the marina it reminds me of a little kid being sent off to school in an ugly sweater his aunt knitted. ,": Do I have to wear this?"
It would have looked so much nicer without those windows.

In this thread: http://forums.sailin...de#entry3897091

[Bob Perry]

Ish:
I had more pics to look at this time and yes I have mellowed a bit on the boat. Maybe I felt the need to come to its defence.
But the keel is funky. Leading edge and trailing edge leave a lot to be desired. If the ballast weight needed to be forward then I would have moved the leading edge forward and given it a proper parabolic shape.

[Tanton Y_M]

Too much sheer, too much crown to the roof for my taste. And I am not talking about the keel. Nice building though.
www.tantonyachtdesign.blogspot.com
 canoeyawl.jpg   145.51K   59 downloads

[kimbottles]

Yes, too much sheer, otherwise she is a cute vessel.

[boomer]

The design might work for the owners, but there are to many things about that design that are flawed.

I don't see a particularly good looking boat, and the first thing I notice are the flaws.

[SemiSalt]

I am always impressed with Jesperson's work. Always top notch. But the leading edge of the keel, I never though a keel should be a blunt instrument.

Ii looks like the ballast is cast in a different shape from what is in the drawing.

[Bob Perry]

Semi:
That's just a profile view of the casting and that may have changed a bit but the problem lies in the sectional shape to leading and trailing edges. I know Eric Jesperen quite well. This is a not a shape that Eric would have come up with on his own. I have a hard time even imagining Eric building that shape.

But I like the sheer. It's bold and perky.

[kdh]

[Mung Breath]

(L) bold and ® perky...

[olaf hart]

I am always impressed with Jesperson's work. Always top notch. But the leading edge of the keel, I never though a keel should be a blunt instrument.

Ii looks like the ballast is cast in a different shape from what is in the drawing.

I wonder if they built that boat around a pre existing ballast keel.

[SemiSalt]

Semi:
That's just a profile view of the casting and that may have changed a bit but the problem lies in the sectional shape to leading and trailing edges. I know Eric Jesperen quite well. This is a not a shape that Eric would have come up with on his own. I have a hard time even imagining Eric building that shape.

Indeed. The as-built shape is much the simpler.

[Sublime]

Oof that boat is purty!

I love them. I had a sail on a Hinckley Pilot 35 (woodie) and the owner gave me one hell of a good lesson on what that little stick can do. We anchored under sail striking the mizzen after all the other sails. She tracked astern on the rode and mizzen sail. The same for departure it went up first keeping us head to the wind, then the main, anchor up and jib to follow.

I've got a little dinghy yawl and the mizzen is a huge help like that. I can screw around on that boat as long as I want and she'll stay head to wind. I can also set out the anchor, leave the mizzen up and it helps keep it from bouncing around. Then in a big blow, jib and mizzen are quite nice.

[Presuming Ed]

Like the Pullman coachroof. Pretty good disguise for lots of headroom. Don't like the bow profile.

[Brodie]

Seriously, who buys a gorgeous boat like that and gives it such a dumb name??

On the topic boat - like the boat, hull windows have got to go. And that tiny little bit of powderhorn in the sheer at the stern would bother me. Either have none, or make a statement.

[kdh]

Seriously, who buys a gorgeous boat like that and gives it such a dumb name??

On the topic boat - like the boat, hull windows have got to go. And that tiny little bit of powderhorn in the sheer at the stern would bother me. Either have none, or make a statement.

Not big on the name either, Brodie. I'm sure I'll offend someone here, but names with "wind," "weather," "sail," or anything too closely related to sailing in them seem, well, too obvious. "This boat sails in all weather!"

I've heard that the owner is delighted with the boat. Maybe that's what's most important.

[Bob Perry]

Brodie:
I think you have to have that slight powderhorn in the stern of pretty much any double ender. The exception would be a boat like Kim's SLIVER, i.e. a very narrow boat. If you don't you will get exagerated spring in the stern. The boat will look like a Mallard in heat.

[boomer]

Not big on the name either, Brodie.

Not that I'd name my boat that...but I don't find it unappealing....BANDERSNATCH wouldn't quite work on that hull, though I've always wanted to name a boat that....other names I found appealing for solid built and good looking hulls were RETRIEVER and DAUNTLESS....another old favorite for a solid boat is BLOODHOUND.

I always thought THUMPER or JUMPER would make great dinghy names, but have yet to name a dinghy that.

One of my boats was originally owned by the head of Nestle's NW division and is named CANDYMAN....I didn't like the name, but always liked the
boat and waited a long time for the second owner to put her up for sale, but AFAIC she's had the name too long to change it.

[kimbottles]

Brodie:
I think you have to have that slight powderhorn in the stern of pretty much any double ender. The exception would be a boat like Kim's SLIVER, i.e. a very narrow boat. If you don't you will get exagerated spring in the stern. The boat will look like a Mallard in heat.

Sliver Stern.....

Attached Files

•  IMG_4415.JPG   103.4K   16 downloads

[Brodie]

Bob, I guess what I was trying to say is that I'd have put a little more powderhorn into that stern - with a sheer like that. A couple of pictures can be deceiving on the shape of any boat. Would love to see it in person. Kim's boat works great as is with that long sheerline.

[Bob Perry]

Brodie:
You have to walk a thin line with powderhorn sheers.
Too much powderhorn and the boat can look really weird from the aft quarter, weather side heeled. You see this in my Valiant 40 from that angle. But it looks great from leeward.
It's a tough detail with double enders. Some designers still draw the sheer in 2D and that view doesn't exist in the real world. You need to have the ability to look at 3D perspectives of the sheer from any angle in order to fine tune it.
I really think the Gartside sheer is nicely proportioned and a wee bit exagerated but pretty good.
Sheerlines are like shirts. Once you get the basic function covered the rest is aesthetics and personal opinion.

[Tom Ray]

Nice boat but I'm not keen on all that camber in the cabin top. I woiuld have a hard time standing on that.

I like it when parts of the boat become more level as other parts get less so.

[boomer]

The camber to my eye is the most glaring flaw and an ankle twister, way overdone almost to the point of being cartoonish....but to each his own....

[tad]

For a forerunner of this sheer and cabin top see Bolero and the Fast Passage 39, both drawn by William Garden.

[Tom Ray]

The camber to my eye is the most glaring flaw and an ankle twister, way overdone almost to the point of being cartoonish....but to each his own....

The part that is mostly covered by the dodger anyway looks that way, but the rest of it seems to flatten out a bit.

[Bob Perry]

Cap10:
Before the days of computer generated lines and 3d modelling you could draw a 3D perspective by hand if you wanted to go to that trouble and it was an arduous chore to do it accutately. Or, you could just teach your eye over time to adjust shapes in 2D to translate the the desired shape in 3D. There are a few rules of thumnb that I used, one being that sheer on the actual boat will always appear flatter than the sheer on the drawing. Now to what degree flatter? There lies the problem and it takes an experienced eye to choose the right sheer. Some times I got it right. I look at the work of a lot of other designers and I think that they have no clue as to that correlation. But the good designers figured it out. I was having my lines rendered in 3D as early as 1974. The Valiant 40 lines were rendered in 3D only after I was committed to that shape.

Yes, I have gone back and reproduced my hand drawn lines on the computer. But I tried to stay faithful to the original shape and ignore the impulse to "correct" the shape. I did this with the Nordic 44. Here is the sail plan. The hull lines are reproduced in my book.

Attached Files

•  sail plan N44.JPG   65.94K   62 downloads

[Brodie]

Slightly off topic - and not a sailboat - but I thought the folks here would like this since we were talking about sheerlines and ducks. And the boat has an interesting story.

Valley Sea Kayaks Anas Acuta - 17'2" x 20" This one (mine) built 2004. The Anas was the first boat Valley built starting back in 1973 and it is still in production, giving it the longest production run of any kayak (that held a lot of weight for me when I was looking for a kayak). Except for the shape of the deck around the cockpit, the deck rigging, and of course the fact that it is fiberglass, this boat is essentially an exact copy of an East Greenland skin-on-frame kayak. The boat is very low volume, and with the chines it carves turns like no other kayak, the only way I can describe it is that it's like skiing, as soon as you put pressure on an edge, the boat just turns. I drive tour customers crazy because they have no idea how I am steering the boat. "Where's the rudder?" They don't like it when I tell them the boat doesn't have a rudder, just a retractable skeg to counteract weathercocking. Because of the large amount of rocker the boat isn't terribly fast but it is rock solid in big waves and surfs very easily.

The pointy stern was a feature of many East Greenland kayaks. I'm not sure if it had any purpose. At any rate, 'Anas Acuta', which is the model name of the boat, is the Latin (scientific) name for the pintail duck - which brings me back to why I thought of the kayak when we were discussing sheerlines and pointy sterns. (Valley also makes a round-bilge version called a Pintail) This is obviously not anything even close to a planar sheer and is a very skinny boat but it is interesting to see how much sheer there still is.

Color scheme on this one mimics the Blue Angels. I got lucky, this was a stock boat!

[Rasputin22]

Cap10:
Before the days of computer generated lines and 3d modelling you could draw a 3D perspective by hand if you wanted to go to that trouble and it was an arduous chore to do it accutately. Or, you could just teach your eye over time to adjust shapes in 2D to translate the the desired shape in 3D. There are a few rules of thumnb that I used, one being that sheer on the actual boat will always appear flatter than the sheer on the drawing. Now to what degree flatter? There lies the problem and it takes an experienced eye to choose the right sheer. Some times I got it right. I look at the work of a lot of other designers and I think that they have no clue as to that correlation. But the good designers figured it out. I was having my lines rendered in 3D as early as 1974. The Valiant 40 lines were rendered in 3D only after I was committed to that shape.

Yes, I have gone back and reproduced my hand drawn lines on the computer. But I tried to stay faithful to the original shape and ignore the impulse to "correct" the shape. I did this with the Nordic 44. Here is the sail plan. The hull lines are reproduced in my book.

Here is one of my favorite and inspiring 'old school' 3d perspective drawings that is just a work of art. I feel guilty using the software tools in my 3d work when I see such talent using nothing more than a brain, hand and eye. Humbling...

http://blog.tadroberts.ca/2011/07/william-garden/

[olaf hart]

Just as well I had an hour to spare.
Tads Blog is amazing.

[slap]

Slightly off topic - and not a sailboat - but I thought the folks here would like this since we were talking about sheerlines and ducks. And the boat has an interesting story.

Valley Sea Kayaks Anas Acuta - 17'2" x 20" This one (mine) built 2004. The Anas was the first boat Valley built starting back in 1973 and it is still in production, giving it the longest production run of any kayak (that held a lot of weight for me when I was looking for a kayak). Except for the shape of the deck around the cockpit, the deck rigging, and of course the fact that it is fiberglass, this boat is essentially an exact copy of an East Greenland skin-on-frame kayak. The boat is very low volume, and with the chines it carves turns like no other kayak, the only way I can describe it is that it's like skiing, as soon as you put pressure on an edge, the boat just turns. I drive tour customers crazy because they have no idea how I am steering the boat. "Where's the rudder?" They don't like it when I tell them the boat doesn't have a rudder, just a retractable skeg to counteract weathercocking. Because of the large amount of rocker the boat isn't terribly fast but it is rock solid in big waves and surfs very easily.

The pointy stern was a feature of many East Greenland kayaks. I'm not sure if it had any purpose. At any rate, 'Anas Acuta', which is the model name of the boat, is the Latin (scientific) name for the pintail duck - which brings me back to why I thought of the kayak when we were discussing sheerlines and pointy sterns. (Valley also makes a round-bilge version called a Pintail) This is obviously not anything even close to a planar sheer and is a very skinny boat but it is interesting to see how much sheer there still is.

Color scheme on this one mimics the Blue Angels. I got lucky, this was a stock boat!

Many years ago I almost bought a Pintail. Amazing kayak. Ended up with a composite P&H Capella. Sometimes I wish I went for the Pintail.

[boomer]

Built a couple Cape Charles 18's, and a Cape Charles 17, and a 16' Yare....would like to do a Golden Eye next, but with a cambered deck versus their faceted deck.

[tad]

Thank you Olaf for your kind words, its nice someone noticed.....

Cap10:
Before the days of computer generated lines and 3d modelling you could draw a 3D perspective by hand if you wanted to go to that trouble and it was an arduous chore to do it accutately. Or, you could just teach your eye over time to adjust shapes in 2D to translate the the desired shape in 3D. There are a few rules of thumnb that I used, one being that sheer on the actual boat will always appear flatter than the sheer on the drawing. Now to what degree flatter? There lies the problem and it takes an experienced eye to choose the right sheer. Some times I got it right. I look at the work of a lot of other designers and I think that they have no clue as to that correlation. But the good designers figured it out. I was having my lines rendered in 3D as early as 1974. The Valiant 40 lines were rendered in 3D only after I was committed to that shape.

Yes, I have gone back and reproduced my hand drawn lines on the computer. But I tried to stay faithful to the original shape and ignore the impulse to "correct" the shape. I did this with the Nordic 44. Here is the sail plan. The hull lines are reproduced in my book.

We had Fairline (3D hull creation sofeware) at Bruce King Yacht Design from 86 on......But no sheer, and really no hull lines, was approved for construction without a half or full model being built. And usually if we had a chance the final sheer was corrected IRL on the boat (cold-molding) or the tooling upside down.

Today I model in Rhino (3D) directly from my initial freehand pencil sketches. I rarely adjust the sheer much, perhaps a 1/2" at most, in these models. From which the full size paterns (lofting) are created. Whether I get it right or not is a matter of opinion......

[kimbottles]

Thank you Olaf for your kind words, its nice someone noticed.....

Tad, I for one have very much enjoyed your website. Lots of good stuff! Kim

[Beau.Vrolyk]

OK, I'm catching up. I love this yawl. But, what is with that keel and rudder? Yikes! Given what we now know about getting a boat to move through the water, why built that now?? I'm thrilled that someone built a boat in this day and age with those looks/lines, but the fish-level view is painful and she'll have some pretty odd sailing characteristics, IMHO.

While I do understand that folks want to see out, most people I know with deadlights in the hull sides put curtains over them. A set of good deck prisms are a better solution to the light issue that a deadlight with a curtain over it.

I sailed a ketch, who's mizzen was so small one would have called her a yawl if you didn't know where the rudder was. While the mizzen was the perfect anchor/storm riding sail, it was simply useless at all other times. It did give the kids something to play with. We put full battens in the mizzen and cut it as flat as a board so that it wouldn't flap while we were riding at anchor or hove to. The boat would heave to perfectly with only the mizzen up, the windage of the mainmast and bow just about balanced the windage of the mizzen. Eventually, two owners later, the mizzen was removed and the boat both sails and looks much better. I know this is a religious argument, but without the stupid handicap loop hole that existed for so long for two masted boats (which resulted in all this silly tiny mizzen boats) I really don't think we'd see them around much. Here she is as a sloop a couple of years ago in Victoria BC.



Sequoia.Saga


Bob, on the cabin top arch, I've come to the opinion that there should be two angles on the deck and house. First, the angle that is roughly horizontal, so that one can walk on it when the boat's sailing downwind or is at anchor. Second, the angle that the boat typically heels to when sailing upwind or tight reaching. This second angle is how you walk up to the mast or foredeck when the boat is going up wind. So, it's probably about 20-25 degrees. I can't imagine how you'd get this to look good, especially at anchor, but I'd like a flat side deck and cabin top and the corner of the cabin chamfered to about 25 degrees. Sort of a faceted cabin arch.

BV

[Tom Ray]

OK, I'm catching up. I love this yawl. But, what is with that keel and rudder? Yikes! Given what we now know about getting a boat to move through the water, why built that now??

I'll take a guess.

It looks to me like if (or around here, when) you hit bottom, you will hit with hard parts that do not move.

If (um... again, when) you hit a trap float, the keel might shed it before the prop or rudder grab it.

[Bob Perry]

I know the reason for those shapes. The designer wanted it to suck. That can be the only answer.
" I sure as hell don't need no NACA foils bullshit. I want this shape. It sucks and that's exactly what I want. Suckage!"

I'm tired of being Mr. Nice Guy all the time.

[Thorvald]

I know the reason for those shapes. The designer wanted it to suck. That can be the only answer.
" I sure as hell don't need no NACA foils bullshit. I want this shape. It sucks and that's exactly what I want. Suckage!"

I'm tired of being Mr. Nice Guy all the time.

You nailed it. That's gotta be it.

[Tom Ray]

I know the reason for those shapes. The designer wanted it to suck. That can be the only answer.
" I sure as hell don't need no NACA foils bullshit. I want this shape. It sucks and that's exactly what I want. Suckage!"

I'm tired of being Mr. Nice Guy all the time.

Which leads me to wonder...

If some clever designer took this boat and rectified the problems below the water line, it would convert it from a 4ksb to a __ksb.

Fill in the blank.

[Tucky]

I know the reason for those shapes. The designer wanted it to suck. That can be the only answer.
" I sure as hell don't need no NACA foils bullshit. I want this shape. It sucks and that's exactly what I want. Suckage!"

I'm tired of being Mr. Nice Guy all the time.

Which leads me to wonder...

If some clever designer took this boat and rectified the problems below the water line, it would convert it from a 4ksb to a __ksb.

Fill in the blank.

Paging Mr. Froude, Mr. Froude to the courtesy phone please. . . . . . . . .

[boomer]

Probably best to start with a fresh sheet....

[SemiSalt]

I sailed a ketch, who's mizzen was so small one would have called her a yawl if you didn't know where the rudder was.

It was a yawl. All the religious wars about the location of the mizzen mast relative to other parts is beside the point. If the mizzen is big enough to provide drive, it's a ketch. Otherwise, it's a yawl, and useful for balance, as a riding sail, and as an excuse for a mizzen staysail.

[Bob Perry]

Beau:
I think the cabin trunk you describe, i.e. faceted, could look quite good. There would be profile lines to control and the outcome could be attractive. I have thought about a similar look several times. I think you can actually see that approach to a cabin top on some alu work boats..

I'm with Semi on the ketch/yawl debate. It has zero to do with the location of the rudder and everything to do with the size of the mizzen.

[Tom Ray]

I never knew it was a matter of religion and had never heard anything other than mast position relative to rudder post being the difference, but if you two guys say so, I'm going to guess I have heard wrong. Learned something new!

[SemiSalt]

There is article on Gartside in the Woodenboat I got last night. I have not read it yet, but it looks to be on the uncritical side, not to say "fawning."

[Veeger]

I never knew it was a matter of religion and had never heard anything other than mast position relative to rudder post being the difference, but if you two guys say so, I'm going to guess I have heard wrong. Learned something new!

It's kinda funny how things evolve. Originally, as we all know, a yawl wasn't even a description of a rig but more of a function, i.e. yawl boat, ship's yawl, etc. Then we went to canoe yawl which was sometimes not really either a canoe OR a yawl (rig). I've seen disputes long ago about it all being a matter of the helm location or narrowed down to the rudder post location and the inevitably the boat with a transom hung rudder (where the 'rudderpost' was further aft than the mizzen, also located on the transom, usually forward edge of said transom) messed up those arguments. Relative sail size, mizzen to main was almost always the first indicator when a yawl was spotted on the horizon, long before the helm could be seen or the rudder post placement got figgered out.

Although not always the case, I'm pretty okay these days, with any of the above definitions since most of them will convey the concept. Much the same happened with the old saloon/salon controversy......

[Guapo]

I was the one who wrote 'eminently sensible'. Hope you recovered from your fears.