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5k sterling to paint a quarter Tonner


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#1 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:27 PM

Hi,
So....
Got charged 5k sterling to paint the deck, topsided and bottom of a quarter Tonner...... In Cowes this summer.
Boat fully primed, ready to be sprayed separate to this.
Awlgrip topsides. Dura pox bottom and awlgrip deck antislip with fine lining around gun whale, tracks-(x3), winches,(x2)....
I guesstimate material would be a grand to 1,500 odd.
That's 4 k sterling labour......
At 15-20 sterling an hour that's 20 days (based on a 10 hr days), to complete the job - based on these figures.....
Rip off or what?

#2 Remodel

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:32 PM

Sounds high to me, but I don't know the UK market. Did you get a quote in advance? You say it was prepped; was all the deck hardware removed, and did you remount it yourself?

#3 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:36 PM

Boat totally blanked in advance.... Bare boat primed head to toe.
Bill covered masking, fine lining and spraying....
Price excluded remounting.
Originally quoted a fraction of the figure!
Fed BS to justify the bill!

#4 GybeSet®

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

imagine you could have a fleet of 21st century 1/4 tonners Donavon GP26s for less than the money spent on revamping a fleet of 1970s pigrooters

They start @ 32k sterling (turkey), are 'well beyond mid tech' vacuumed epoxy state of the art racers, and will last virtually 'forever' relative to the 30-40yr old boats which are if not suss when they were built, are now!

you Poms are funny people

#5 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:59 PM

imagine you could have a fleet of Donavon GP26s for less than the money spent on revamping a fleet of 1970s pigrooters
They a 'above mid tech' vacuumed epoxy state of the art racers

you Poms are funny people


100% right but no GPs over here...
So
Rip off or what?

#6 GybeSet®

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:08 PM

yeah sounds very exxy, you were in a boatyard i expect !
If they had to fair/prep ?



... but no GPs over here...


kinda my point

if everyone poured the same amount of money into 1970s Cortinas/Opels there'd be no new cars either !


#7 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

Not a boatyard.
And no.... Fairing separate...
As above.... Wipe down..... Fine line, masking and spray......
Top finish but at the price it would want to be....


#8 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:25 PM

yeah sounds very exxy, you were in a boatyard i expect !
If they had to fair/prep ?




... but no GPs over here...


kinda my point

if everyone poured the same amount of money into 1970s Cortinas/Opels there'd be no new cars either !


Point... But you know what- some people like cortinas/ Granada's..... pretty boats that are immense fun.

#9 walterbshaffer

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:35 PM

Boat totally blanked in advance.... Bare boat primed head to toe.
Bill covered masking, fine lining and spraying....
Price excluded remounting.
Originally quoted a fraction of the figure!
Fed BS to justify the bill!


A QT is not a big boat

What did you add to the work order after the quote was given?

If nothing then you got ripped.

#10 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:42 PM

Specific to the painting works order .... Nothing.
The sole of the cockpit was sprayed black-( without being asked) other than that, nothing.



#11 walterbshaffer

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:50 PM

I just tried a currency coverter and 5,000 GBP = 7,986 USD????

#12 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:52 PM

Yup...

#13 SA Lurker

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:57 PM

Fed BS to justify the bill!


Such as?

#14 walterbshaffer

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:04 PM

I suspect that there is more to this story than is being let on, especially as all the fairing & priming prior was done for the painter: at 8,000 USD for a QT there has to be more to it than just spraying,....right?

#15 usa 917

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:27 PM

How's it look?

#16 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:32 PM

I suspect that there is more to this story than is being let on, especially as all the fairing & priming prior was done for the painter: at 8,000 USD for a QT there has to be more to it than just spraying,....right?



#17 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:34 PM

Nope nothing more to the painting side of this.
Fairing and priming done by the same outfit and paid on a separate invoice.
This is specific to the painting operation.


#18 Out law

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:36 PM

How's it look?


Great- but it would want to.....


#19 Trendsetter

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:41 AM

$7k us dollars for all the paint work doesn't sound to off the wall. You told us what you THOUGHT materials would be but what were they really??? Was the bottom burnished afterwords and includes in the cost? Was the boat clear coated?

As for the paint work here is my guess;

Bottom job (not burnished) just spraying a few coats is about a days worth of work by the time you set up the gun spray and clean the gun post spray

As for the topsides I assume it is a simple paint job just two colors, and that it will be color sanded and clear coated if that is the case then that is anther three to four day for two guys This would take longer if a third color is added to the mix.

As for the deck that is HUGELY time consumptive! You have to paint all the high gloss then clear coat all of that and then the long road of taping it all off for non-skid. Then shooting the non-skid. I can see two guys spending a solid 4 to 5 days start to finish

It should be noted my days are assumed at only 8 hours not 10. I say these numbers as I am a boat painter and did my own 25' sailboat and I did it quick and dirty an still had a butt load of time into her.

If I had to guess the total job cost from the time you dropped it off until the time you picked it up for all the work you have listed would cost around 15-20k us dollars

#20 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 03:02 AM

AwlGrip shouldn't need a clear coat, would certainly add to the price tag if included. Assuming a 25' QT that's around $300+ a foot or 100+ a foot for each section. I used to charge $100/ft to AwlGrip topsides on an average sailboat, but that included fairing and sanding and priming. I'm sure Gouv will chime in his .02 but I think you got took. What BS were you fed?

#21 dogwatch

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:47 AM

At 15-20 sterling an hour t


Do you work for £15-20 an hour?

No, thought not.

#22 GybeSet®

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:21 AM

the employees might, repeat MIGHT get £15 (assistant less, 'gun' shooter' maybe more so averaged)

you will be charged 45-55

these (ratios) not dissimilar for various trades related work, e.g. car or home, check out any 'insurance quote' for the breakdown

_____________________________

ph#@$k clearcoat for longevity

#23 Out law

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

Thanks gybeset.
That helps me understand it better.
Just seemed a lot.
Had no idea of painter rates.
Anyhow she looks great.


#24 bruno

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:18 PM

Shop rates typically run $50-100+ per hour with tax per man. $8000 / $75 (assumes relatively high end but not ultra) = 106.66 hrs.
If we deduct $1,500 in materials (using supplied estimate) then 86.6 hrs. with a two man crew = about 1 week.
It would take about a day max for them to mask the bottom andnshoot 2-3 coats and cleanup unless the waterline was missing. Setting the waterline on some old ior boats was tricky, might take a few hours but assume 1 day for bottom. Masking and shooting freeboard should take another day if no sanding, cleaning and other prep was required. Shooting the deck smooth, another day, then wait a day or two (depends on temps and paint system, accelerant?), sand most of deck then shoot with nonskid after another round of masking, cleaning prep etc.,. This assumes system like Awlgrip which does not require clear coat. If there is a color change or grphics then extra. So it looks like 4+ days for a two man crew, plus consumables and materials. Absent are layday charges, if this is in a closed shed or spray booth these can be expensive, for 1.5 weeks maybe 600-1000. And then question about burnishing or wetsanding the bottom is pertinent. Yes, itis a small yacht but a full redo can make even a small yacht costly. When I have a question about a bill I ask for a breakdown. Most reputable yards are happy to supply such. Durepox is expensive, I assume this boat is drysailed and intended to be kept to a high standard so the bottom would be as carefully scrutinized as the freeboard. Was the rudder in or out? Was the deck stripped or did hardware have to be removed and replaced, e.g. stanchions, etc.,? What about the running gear, separate paint? To spray a deck normally you rig scaffolding, was there a scaffolding charge?

#25 Gouvernail

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:37 AM

back to teh opening question...

The price seems about right...maybe a tad low if you expect quality workmanship and a decent warrantly.

A few posts down teh list you mentioned being quoted much less. I have no idea why anyone would pay more than the agreed upon price..

I can only imagfgine teh conversation between you and teh shop owners.

+ How much to paint my boat?

* We will paint it for $500

+ OK I'll bring it in

* We are all finished. How about you pay us $5,000

+ Sure. I knew you were just joking about the original quote anyway.

* (mumbled to self) Fukkin' idiot. I was kidding about the $5000 and he gave it to me.

#26 soling2003

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:58 AM

Sorry, but it is just plain time consuming to do a good paint job, even if the sanding and prep has already been done. With Awlgrip anyway, you need to prime first, sand, wipe, paint couple of coats, clean up, re tape for the non skid, wipe down, paint, clean up, etc. etc. And that is just the deck. Doesn't much matter if it is 25 ft or 35 ft. The hardest parts taping are the corners. It can take two people a half day just to tape off the deck for each the smooth and non skid. And it depends on how much stuff was removed. Were the tracks and winches removed too? And Awlgrip is really expensive! About $125 per 1/2 gal. of just the converter at their cost, and that is just the converter, $50 per quart for paint, then their is thinner, awlprep, tape, etc. etc.

what is thier hourly rate over there? that I have no idea. You'd have to convert my us dollars into your sterling, but you get the picture...it takes a long time to prep and tape off even if the boat is already fair.

Big question is which you haven't told us yet, is what BS did they tell you why the final bill was a lot more than the estimate????

#27 DA-WOODY

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:19 AM

why didn't you post here offering jobs @ $24K a year

when they finished your boat lay em off as you didn't say $24K for a whole year

there's a Master craftsman finishing up on a BIG Cat near SF that culdda dunit

OH and How about Sum PIX fur Kerist Sakes

#28 Gouvernail

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:16 AM

My hionest guestimate??? sight unseen??

The boat was buiult maybe in the seventies?? Quarter ton racing died about when J-24s came out.
My guess would be about $10,000 for the deck ( delivered with ZERO hardware and we don't install any hardware) , $4000 for the sides, and bottom jobs start @ $1500 for a quick recoat and can easily cost $5000 for a full on racing bottom.
As few if any quarter tonners have sufficient value to justify a $20,000 refinish, we would have to know teh customer very very well before starting or demand a huge deposit .

All fixed up with brand new sails, lines and a brand new motor, my guess is a quarter tonner is worth $5000 tops and possibly as little as $2000.

When potential customers come by asking me to spend that kind of money on some ancient orphan I interview those customers very very carefully and try to figure out if my best advice is to help them take the old piece of crap to the dump and invest their money in a newer nicer sailing toy.

When brand new J-70s cost only $50,000 and for the next decade will sell used for at least half that, why would anyone blow $25,000 on an ancient boat built for a game that no longer has anyone playing.

I hate to be part of the body of reasoning that places a friend in a situation guaranteeing a lifetime of owning old worn out shitboxes.

#29 dogwatch

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:51 AM

All fixed up with brand new sails, lines and a brand new motor, my guess is a quarter tonner is worth $5000 tops and possibly as little as $2000.


Dead wrong. You ought to acquaint yourself with what's been going on with the UK Quarter (and Half ton) classes before sounding off. People who want a custom race-boat are spending big money in these classes. They aren't the kind of people who want a J70.

#30 Somebody Else

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:04 AM

I guesstimate material would be a grand to 1,500 odd.
That's 4 k sterling labour......
At 15-20 sterling an hour that's 20 days (based on a 10 hr days), to complete the job - based on these figures.....


Your labor rate seems to be about 1/3 to 1/2 what boatyards charge.

I don't know how it is in your area, but around here a major part of that cost would be environmental in nature: fume isolation, fume scrubbing, full tenting or interior spray booth large enough to meet environmental laws. Then there is amortized cost of spray equipment and expendables like plastic sheeting, tape, filters, etc.

To my way of thinking, you take the job to a professional, you better bring your own Astro-Glide or they charge you extra for that, too, as they're plundering your bilge.

#31 mad

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:11 AM


At 15-20 sterling an hour t


Do you work for £15-20 an hour?

No, thought not.

Exactly, where did this £15-£20 figure come from?
How much does it cost an hour to get your car fixed? Called an electrician lately? Look at there charge rates! They will be double that rate at least.


#32 mad

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:19 AM


All fixed up with brand new sails, lines and a brand new motor, my guess is a quarter tonner is worth $5000 tops and possibly as little as $2000.


Dead wrong. You ought to acquaint yourself with what's been going on with the UK Quarter (and Half ton) classes before sounding off. People who want a custom race-boat are spending big money in these classes. They aren't the kind of people who want a J70.

Its unlikely that Gouv would know or understand the lunacy in the UK that goes on in re-furbing shitty old IOR boats, as you state, they don't want a J70, they want to spend a shit load of money resurrecting old bits of shit that should have been skipped years ago. Oh yeah and then bitch about the price!

#33 Drop Bear.

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:27 AM

Hourly rate is way low.

£10 - not many skills or reputation, new to industry.
£15-20 - general workers with good reps and skills
£25 - independent skilled labour
£30-40 - independent companies that have employees
£45-50 - boatyards.

#34 Snaggletooth

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:37 AM

they want to spend a shit load of money resurrecting old bits of shit that should have been skipped years ago. Oh yeah and then bitch about the price!

:)

#35 pickles

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:10 AM

Sounds cheap to me!

Paint alone for this job would be over 1k
Then you have consumables like gun wash, paint filters, drill mixers, paint cups, filters for mask, air filters for booth, power to run compressor booth and lights, servicing all the gear, at least 3 spray guns + pressure pots to keep lubed and maintained let alone buy.

Sounds like you have at least 4 shoots in your respray

1st top sides
Mask out waterline, deck non skid and every thing that you don't want to paint can take up too 8 hours depending on complexity.
Spraying top sides and clean up 8 hours.
Remove masking 2 hours
Say 4L of paint
2l hardner
And 1L thinner
1L gun wash
2 tack rags
1L wax and greese remover
Rags
2 paint filters
2 rolls fine line masking tape
2 roll normal tape
2rolls plastic film
+ any rework time

Spray deck gloss parts
Mask out and prep depends on hot complex but at a guess around 8 hours
Spray 4 hours
1 L paint
.5L converter
200 ml thinner
.5l gun wash
2 rolls Masking film for top sides
2rolls tape
2 rolls fine line tape
Tack rag
.5l wax and greese remover
Rags

Spray non skid
Sand and mask out gloss, depends on complexity but around 8 hours
Spray non skid 9 hours as it can take 3 people to do as you can not walk on wet paint and have to do 3 coats
1 roll fine line tape
2 rolls tape
3l paint
3L converter
1L flat ting agent
2Lthinner
1l Wax and greese remover
Rags
Gun wash
Mixer
Cups

Paint dura pox
Mask out 6 hours
Spray 8 hours
De mask every thing and clean up 3 hours


Set up and remove scaffold 2-3 times 6 hours
The list goes on and on and I have better things to do than to do a quote for you.

But I would guess at about 70 hours and if it was me doing it and it was my shed, insurance and my life I wouldn't get out of bed for any thing less than 50 sterling an hour.

So looks to me as though you got a fair deal

#36 Juggs

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:16 PM

Well if you will insist on having the work done in Cowes what do you expect! I bet that you didn't get a quote on paper but the invoice came on a big sheet of paper.
Most good car/lorry paint shops can do it cheaper and they have the right tools to cook the paint into place. Did an old Dubois quarterflash a few years ago in the local garage, they said they enjoyed the challenge of something different and made a great job of it.

You makes yer choice and pays yer money!

#37 Speng

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:24 PM

You got assraped mate! you shoulda gone to another location. How many hours of labour did they quote? Anything over the equivalent of US$100/hr is inexplicable. I reckon some geezers in Soton, Gosport, or Hamble coulda done it cheaper.

#38 Peter Morton1

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:45 AM

Was it an estimate or fixed quote. If quote then you should have just paid that.
Did that include VAT? Having done a few QTs and if its inc VAT (20% to UK tax man) don't think it's thats far away. Probably more than 1500 materials would be my guess.

#39 Gouvernail

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:06 AM


All fixed up with brand new sails, lines and a brand new motor, my guess is a quarter tonner is worth $5000 tops and possibly as little as $2000.


Dead wrong. You ought to acquaint yourself with what's been going on with the UK Quarter (and Half ton) classes before sounding off. People who want a custom race-boat are spending big money in these classes. They aren't the kind of people who want a J70.


This year...maybe next year.

the boat will not hold sufficient value for a long enough period to justify teh lunacy of refurbishing it.

But I am certain there are loonies who wish to spend teh bucks anyway.

I have a family of friends who want me to refurbish their old Cal 20. I know why they want to do it and I will do it, but I made certain they fully comprehended the consequences of the spending with respect to the resale value before we negotiated a price..

#40 williwaw

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:53 AM

No matter what you are still ripped of.

Just go to a normal car painting business, they often do a better job for half the price.

#41 Speng

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:00 PM

@ Governail, it might seem a bit strange to us USAnians but for some reason 1/4 tonners and smaller have been going crazy in Blighty. I think it's because they get huge IRC age credits and you can pick them up from the nether regions of boatyards all over the country. Plus the lack of something OD like a huge J24 fleet means there's little alternative in the mid 20s. Plus they pretty tough and easy to trick out. A mate of mine and his dad were looking to sort one and he found that all the interior plywood was something ungodly thick like 15mm (and it wasn't structural!!). so a gutting, re-rig, bottom job and some new deck gear and you've got something. Not hard if you're handy...

#42 mad

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:08 PM

@ Governail, it might seem a bit strange to us USAnians but for some reason 1/4 tonners and smaller have been going crazy in Blighty. I think it's because they get huge IRC age credits and you can pick them up from the nether regions of boatyards all over the country. Plus the lack of something OD like a huge J24 fleet means there's little alternative in the mid 20s. Plus they pretty tough and easy to trick out. A mate of mine and his dad were looking to sort one and he found that all the interior plywood was something ungodly thick like 15mm (and it wasn't structural!!). so a gutting, re-rig, bottom job and some new deck gear and you've got something. Not hard if you're handy...

Have you ever re-built an old composite boat, re-faired topsides, primed, prepped and shot top coat in Awlgrip?

You can answer them one by one if it helps.

#43 dogwatch

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

@ Governail, it might seem a bit strange to us USAnians but for some reason 1/4 tonners and smaller have been going crazy in Blighty. I think it's because they get huge IRC age credits and you can pick them up from the nether regions of boatyards all over the country.


That last point has long since ceased to be true. They are now looking to source further boats from all over the world.

Plus the lack of something OD like a huge J24 fleet means there's little alternative in the mid 20s.


Not really correct, there are substantial SB20 and J80 fleets here. Actually there's a J24 scene as well and 707s (but neither of those in the Solent any more). Quarter tonners appeal to those who want more freedom than those ODs provide and who have pockets deep enough to pay for major renovations/optimisations.

#44 thefuture

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:09 PM

Price seems fair to me. Paint cost way more than your guess. Are there any stripes, etc, etc. $65 an hour is a good average rate. These jobs are extremely time consuming.

#45 shanghaisailor

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:02 PM



All fixed up with brand new sails, lines and a brand new motor, my guess is a quarter tonner is worth $5000 tops and possibly as little as $2000.


Dead wrong. You ought to acquaint yourself with what's been going on with the UK Quarter (and Half ton) classes before sounding off. People who want a custom race-boat are spending big money in these classes. They aren't the kind of people who want a J70.


This year...maybe next year.

the boat will not hold sufficient value for a long enough period to justify teh lunacy of refurbishing it.

But I am certain there are loonies who wish to spend teh bucks anyway.

I have a family of friends who want me to refurbish their old Cal 20. I know why they want to do it and I will do it, but I made certain they fully comprehended the consequences of the spending with respect to the resale value before we negotiated a price..



#46 walterbshaffer

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:48 PM

Unless the yard quoted 5,000 GBP / $8,000 USD that is too much for a 25' boat.

Remember the OP says he was originally quoted a fraction of that amount, pulled and remounted all the hardware himself and did all the priming & fairing himself as well.

Sounds like he was ambushed agter the yard saw him drive up in an expensive car.

#47 shanghaisailor

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:36 AM

Gouvernail you are dead wrong: Dogwatch you are dead right. I tried to post this last night but my Chinese internet failed and I ended up with the "quote" bit but not the rest

There are no longer enough old boats around locally for the number of people . I seem to remember Morty even travelleing to Spain to find one and bring it back and if you compare the costs of buying and old but sound hull and bringing it back to new to the cost of a super duper new boat then the whole process is actually quite cheap. My first one cost me about GBP6,500, then another similar amount and I had a very competitive club racer. Since bringing it to China i have added 3DLs and unbeleivably had the hull gel coat renewed - god knows what that would have cost in UK, a bit more than the 5k for a paint job.

I then had the find of the century when a friend told me of one that had been built in HK and never launched - sat for 25 years under a tarp in a corner of a shed. Airex foam sandwich, not a single piece of chopped strand mat in her construction, all woven rovings and hull dry as a bone.

Total including getting her here, import duty, sails(full set of 3Dls and a couple of kites), electronics, engine, full Harken and a complete paint job, the lot cost me a little over half a J-80.

God knows what a modern one off race boat would have cost me.

The QTs are great fun, great value, in the UK they have a great scene, they are very competitive under IRC (for whatever reason) their handling quirks are their handling quirks - and what race boat doesn't have those - and unlike a modern sports boat, you can sleep on them and even go offshore.

Back to the point of the thread, I don't think the cost of the paint job is excessive and in any case if you think your boat is worth it, as you obviously do, the other posters who "guessed" it was worth $5,000 tops and it was "lunacy" refurbishing it, well that is their problem.

These boats have something missing from the modern plasic fantastic (well more than one something) but they have character, they stand out in a crowd, some of them are a piece of modern sailing history, they get admired and are rightly sought after.

Money well spent Out law and at 5 grand, having seen the work that goes into a GOOD paint job, no - I don''t think you were ripped off.

See ya on the water

SS

#48 alibee

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

Doesn't sound a million miles off reasonable value but a fixed-price quote on paper might be a better route next time. Anytime I spend more than a few hundred quid on house or boat renovation then it always goes down on paper.

Pics please. :)

#49 Kraftwerk

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:56 AM

5K GBP, thats what I paid for my whole boat, on the trailer.




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