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North American PHRF Sportboat Ratings and Rankings


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#1 Streetwise

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:12 AM

At my club on Lake Champlain in Vermont, we are more likely to have a mixed PHRF sportboat fleet before we ever have any specific model get a one design fleet. However, we have multiple sportboats around, not all of which currently race (unfortunately).

I would like to come up with a list that provides guidance for our PHRF board and anyone else trying to fit sportboats into existing fleets.

Currently, we have the following on our light wind lake, not all with boats racing:

099 - Melges 24 (no more on the lake, but most sportboat time on lake)
102 - Viper 640
111 - Melges 20
??? - J/70
??? - Open 5.70
180 - Open 5.00

Reference keel boats:

099 - J/92s OD
105 - J/92 PHRF
108 - C&C 99 OD
111 - J/29 MHOB
117 - J/29 FROB
117 - J/80 PHRF
120 - J/80 OD

We think the Viper 640 should be at 108 or even 111

The Melges 20 might belong at 114 or 117 or 120.

I have not seen the local J/70 or Open 5.70 race yet.

Where would a VX One, Ultimate 20, or a Rocket 22 go?

jason

#2 Christian

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:45 AM

I think those numbers look pretty good actually. Maybe the V640 should be rated 3 seconds slower to give it a 6 s/m buffer from the M24 but I am not even sure that would be right. VX one probably very close to the 640, Ultimate 20 about 130's - not sure about the rocket

#3 6924

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

If it is light air the U20 should rate significantly faster than a J/70

#4 arr4ws

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:31 AM

we rate 84 in quebec city with our melges 24. WIch is following PHRF-LO.

its seriously very difficult to be competitive , except in the perfect wind/current

#5 Dawg_House

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:54 AM

Jason,
Another boat to add to your list is the i550. There is a builder across the lake in Morrisonville, NY and Craig is working on completing the deck. You may know him, he raced on a Viper last spring at CRW and at Viper NA 2011.

With 15 NA boats in the water, 10 more close to splashing soon, there are 11 boats rated. High 165, low 138, average is 149.

061 Critical Twist MT 140
108 Lunatic Fringe MN 138
129 Alchemy WI 147
172 Wild Child FL 165
214 Cheap Date OR 150
240 Carbon Offset BC 150
250 Portland 3 OR 150
268 Portland 4 OR 150
269 Poker Face OR 150
410 Whatever OR 150
130 Frank FL 150



It is from 2008, but also look at
http://offshore.ussa...F Handicaps.pdf
http://offshore.ussa... Dimensions.pdf
Class\Type Lowest
Handicap
Highest
Handicap
Average
Handicap
ROCKET 22 105 158 132 ROSS 650 163 163 162 VIPER 640 ODR 81 111 99 ULTIMATE 20 138 156 144 THISTLE ODR 123 123 123 STAR ODR 126 174 150 SR MAX 21 162 177 168 SR 21 158 174 165 S-2 7.9 ODR 165 186 171 PRO 25 42 42 42 MELGES 24 ODR 81 138 96 LIGHTNING 19 ODR 153 195 174 J-24 ODR 165 185 168 ELLIOTT 770 108 114 111

#6 cstay

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:27 AM

Hey Jason i met you at i believe mayors cup? I sail on Witchcraft the Frac J29. My boat wont be in the water next summer unfortunately maybe late in the season. But i will be getting my rating and be ready to race the following summer. I will be applying for my rating that winter. If you want to race sport boats this summer i could probably get brad to go over with his viper. If not i would be in for racing the following summer.

#7 airacer

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:00 AM

Don't worry so much about your rating, just be thankful you can race. PHRF-LE will not issue our Melges 24 a valid certificate to compete in normal PHRF classes here, because of our lack of a bow pulpit. However they have issued certificates to boats without pulpits which are "classic" in nature, descriminating against sportboats such as the M24 and J70.

I was told (and I quote) by a PHRF-LE measurer and committee member: "It's a fucken Melges 24, it's a one design boat and shouldn't be raced in PHRF."

Our club allowed us to race with an 81 rating, the lowest in the country. We did well but we had to sail our asses off to win. After a lot of research I realized PHRF ratings are so subjective that even 9 seconds a mile doesn't matter much if you sail harder and have superior tactics.

Because PHRF-LE will not issue us a certificate which will allow us to compete in normal PHRF classes, we refuse to pay for their "restricted" cert. I encourage those out there to pressure PHRF-LE as well as their local PHRF committee's and US Sailing to allow small sportboats such as the M24, J70, Viper, etc. to be allowed to race as I believe sportboats are the future of our sport.

We will most likely not be allowed to race anywhere on Lake Erie next year as it stands. I encourage interested parties to send them an email.

info@phrf-le.org

#8 Ryley

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:16 PM

you didn't ask but my elliott 770 rates 114 in PHRF-NE, 115 in PHRF-ECSA, 111 in PHRF-Ches and for some unknown reason 108 in PHRF-ELI. These are base numbers with square top main. I think the right number is probably 114 although in the light stuff 111 is pretty good. The bow pulpit issue on the melges 24 is stupid - I don't think I've ever seen anyone leave the cockpit on an M24. PHRF should leave the safety issues to the ORC regs and the OAs for specific regattas. Should a 1D35 not get a PHRF number because it has 1D in the name? Sometimes I think the only way we're going to get any fair numbers in the field are when the old PHRF regime gets hit by a bus, retires, or decides to sail a fast fun boat.

#9 Streetwise

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:08 PM

Thanks for the info guys. I will write more when I'm not working. We do have a decent PHRF board here, and with strong Lightning and Etchells fleets on the lake, all these boats are likely to be rated. I'm just hoping to get an idea of the performance order even if different regions have different ratings.

I know the question we will really want to answer for next year is J/70 vs Melges 20, perhaps with J/80 as the reference PHRF boat.

Cool on the i550! The more the merrier.

Thanks!

jason

#10 Punani Jackson

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:17 PM

Down around Long Island we had a Melges 24 attempt to do the Around Long Island Race at a PHRF rating of 99. We also have a couple of J/70s on Western Long Island Sound that rate 111. Most people suspect that rating will be raised- quite a bit.

#11 jim lee

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:12 PM

Does the Dart count?

Dart - 129 PNW standard chute
Dart - 117 PNW with sprit
Dart - 111 New Orleans oversize standard chute

-jim lee

#12 NYBOZO1

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:57 PM

Columbia 32C, carbon with sprit.

Buoy phrf Cali-----54
Southeast 50
Lake Erie (NY) 42 we race windward/leward. Hopelessly low rating. Totally inappropriate.

#13 Speng

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:57 PM

Thanks for the info guys. I will write more when I'm not working. We do have a decent PHRF board here, and with strong Lightning and Etchells fleets on the lake, all these boats are likely to be rated. I'm just hoping to get an idea of the performance order even if different regions have different ratings.

I know the question we will really want to answer for next year is J/70 vs Melges 20, perhaps with J/80 as the reference PHRF boat.

Cool on the i550! The more the merrier.

Thanks!

jason


If you have enough race results (particularly with the Lightnings) you might consider Portsmouth. If you have one of those scoring programs and you stuff it with previous race results it'll pop out a Portsmouth rating lickety split.

On the light lake I used to sail on the U20 rated and sailed very similar to a Star FWIW even though dissimilar boats

#14 hoofhearted

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:05 PM

Does the Dart count?

Dart - 129 PNW standard chute
Dart - 117 PNW with sprit
Dart - 111 New Orleans oversize standard chute

-jim lee


How is the oversize chute a standard chute? Wouldn't it be either Standard chute or oversize chute?

#15 Streetwise

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:49 PM


Does the Dart count?

Dart - 129 PNW standard chute
Dart - 117 PNW with sprit
Dart - 111 New Orleans oversize standard chute

-jim lee


How is the oversize chute a standard chute? Wouldn't it be either Standard chute or oversize chute?


Of course the Dart counts, and I would love to see one here. Lake Champlain is a place where you can do a lot of racing, and visit many great cruising spots.

I think Jim was referring to an oversized symmetrical chute rather than the asymmetrical ones that the other Darts use.

In response to the portsmouth ideas, there are two factors. First, the Lightnings sail at a different club than where these sportboats sail, so they haven't shared a race. Secondly, until we hit about five sportboats, we have to live in a mixed PHRF fleet. If we get enough to get our own fleet, I would happily consider other scoring systems, including SMS if we could get measurements. I am the one on our Regatta Committee who works on the fleet breakdowns each year, so you can bet I will make it happen as soon as possible.

Locally, I have to convince the Melges 20 to come back to local racing (maybe they need a better rating than 111), and I have to convince the Open 5.70 on the bay to come racing. The owner of that boat got it to sail with his kids, but it deserves to be racing too! We are just one or two sportboats away from our goal. There will be one or two J/70s racing next year, and at some point I will sell my half of a Viper 640 so I can get a new Viper, VX, or Rocket.

Cheers,

jason

#16 Streetwise

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:11 PM

Let's take a shot at ranking these, for lighter wind conditions. There are lots of guesses in here! See if you can improve this:

Shaw 650
+?
Melges 24
+6
VX One?
Viper 640
Rocket 22?
+3
Left Coast Dart
+3
Melges 20?
J/80 (PHRF Reference)
+?
Ultimate 20?
+?
J/70?
+?
Open 5.70?
+?
i550?

#17 ZachF

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:42 AM

phrf-nb has:
Shaw 650- 99
Melges 24- 99
Viper 640- 105
VX One- 108
J/70- 111
Melges 20- 111
SB3- 120
J/80- 123
Open 5.70- 138
Ultimate 20- 141

#18 Streetwise

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:31 AM

phrf-nb has:
Shaw 650- 99
Melges 24- 99
Viper 640- 105
VX One- 108
J/70- 111
Melges 20- 111
SB3- 120
J/80- 123
Open 5.70- 138
Ultimate 20- 141


That is a good list—it might be the best one-region reference!

Do you think the Melges 20 and J/70 belong where they are in that list? Do you think one is faster than the other?

Thanks!

#19 ZachF

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:47 AM

I have not lined up with a J/70 yet so I don't know if the rating is fair or not. I think the Melges 20 should be closer to the SB3 than it is to the Viper and I don't think the Open could sail to that rating in the 5-12 knots we usually get. The ratings for the Shaw, Melges 24, Viper, VX, SB3 and J/80 are reasonably fair. The Ultimate 20 rating is from 2000, when the Melges 24 rated 96 and the Viper rated 108.

#20 TeamGladiator

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:05 PM

FT10m -- 51
Mumm 30 -- 51
Cheetah 30 -- 78
Viper 830 -- 75
Antrim 27 -- 81
Shaw 650 -- 87
Melges 24 -- 87
VX One -- 96
Viper 640 -- 90
Rocket 22 -- 93
Left Coast Dart -- 105
Melges 20 -- 108
J/80 -- 120
Ultimate 20 -- 141
J/70 -- 105
Open 5.70 -- 141
i550 -- 141

#21 Mike in CT

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:50 PM

FT10m -- 51
Mumm 30 -- 51
Cheetah 30 -- 78
Viper 830 -- 75
Antrim 27 -- 81
Shaw 650 -- 87
Melges 24 -- 87
VX One -- 96
Viper 640 -- 90
Rocket 22 -- 93
Left Coast Dart -- 105
Melges 20 -- 108
J/80 -- 120
Ultimate 20 -- 141
J/70 -- 105
Open 5.70 -- 141
i550 -- 141


Where is this magical place where a M24 rates 87 and a Viper 830 rates 75? I must go there!

#22 TeamGladiator

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:57 PM


FT10m -- 51
Mumm 30 -- 51
Cheetah 30 -- 78
Viper 830 -- 75
Antrim 27 -- 81
Shaw 650 -- 87
Melges 24 -- 87
VX One -- 96
Viper 640 -- 90
Rocket 22 -- 93
Left Coast Dart -- 105
Melges 20 -- 108
J/80 -- 120
Ultimate 20 -- 141
J/70 -- 105
Open 5.70 -- 141
i550 -- 141


Where is this magical place where a M24 rates 87 and a Viper 830 rates 75? I must go there!

Its more about the relative spread between the boats... The Melges is 84 in NorCal and SoCal is it not?
Also assuming that the Melges can use their class legal, RRS illegal hiking aids and the others are complying with the RRS. A Melges 24 at "99" is a fucking joke if they can hang crew off of straps like sacks of potatoes and nobody else can do the same.

#23 Streetwise

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:09 AM

All those ratings seem lower than ours except for the J/80. Can I assume those are from a higher wind region? Regardless, they still provide some useful deltas.

#24 airacer

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:25 AM

Gladiator, how many boats in your region have padded loose lower lifelines? The M24 is not the only boat that the crew hangs like a sac of potatoes on. Most of the fast PHRF boats in every area I have sailed in have taken some leeway in the lifeline rule. Do a search of regatta photos and see for yourself. I agree 99 is a gift.

#25 TeamGladiator

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:58 AM

Gladiator, how many boats in your region have padded loose lower lifelines? The M24 is not the only boat that the crew hangs like a sac of potatoes on. Most of the fast PHRF boats in every area I have sailed in have taken some leeway in the lifeline rule. Do a search of regatta photos and see for yourself. I agree 99 is a gift.

Padded, yes... Sagging to the max the rules allow and maybe an inch more, some/most... But using a fabric "belt" that drags on the deck, not even close.

At least we agree on the gift part...

#26 TeamGladiator

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:40 AM

All those ratings seem lower than ours except for the J/80. Can I assume those are from a higher wind region? Regardless, they still provide some useful deltas.

Well I think that a rating discussion is often better made in the following manner...

FT10m -36
Mumm 30 -36
Cheetah 30 -9
Viper 830 -12
Antrim 27 -6
Shaw 650 -- 0
Melges 24 -- 0
VX One -- +9
Viper 640 -- +3
Rocket 22 -- +6
Left Coast Dart -- +18
Melges 20 -- +21
J/80 -- +33
Ultimate 20 -- +54
J/70 -- +21
Open 5.70 -- +54
i550 -- +54

You can then build a table off of the reference boat (Melges 24 or Shaw 650 in this case) using only the relative deltas from that reference boat. What you get in the end is an interesting scattergram of rating deltas that you can then "back math" to your local boats.

This approach works well when you are comparing all apples (sport boats) or all oranges (racer/cruisers) or all pineapples (IOR boats), etc When you start to get designs that are radically different from the rest on the list the comparisons become useless.

#27 airacer

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:15 AM


Gladiator, how many boats in your region have padded loose lower lifelines? The M24 is not the only boat that the crew hangs like a sac of potatoes on. Most of the fast PHRF boats in every area I have sailed in have taken some leeway in the lifeline rule. Do a search of regatta photos and see for yourself. I agree 99 is a gift.

Padded, yes... Sagging to the max the rules allow and maybe an inch more, some/most... But using a fabric "belt" that drags on the deck, not even close.

At least we agree on the gift part...


FYI, mabye its time to re-read the RRS. Any sag in the lower lifeline does not equal "taut." No reason to single out M24's. I had this debate this summer at the yacht club after a race. I led around a group of racers threatening to protest the M24 and made them step on the lower lifelines of multiple boats at the club after they argued the same fact you did, including their own. Guess what, half of the boats lower lifelines touched the deck. Maybe the PNW is different.

Here is a link for ya: http://rrsstudy.blog...d-rule-492.html

And BTW a M24 lifeline is illegal if it can touch the deck.

Sorry, back to the ratings.

#28 Jerryd

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:12 AM

FT10m -- 51
Mumm 30 -- 51
Cheetah 30 -- 78
Viper 830 -- 75
Antrim 27 -- 81
Shaw 650 -- 87
Melges 24 -- 87
VX One -- 96
Viper 640 -- 90
Rocket 22 -- 93
Left Coast Dart -- 105
Melges 20 -- 108
J/80 -- 120
Ultimate 20 -- 141
J/70 -- 105
Open 5.70 -- 141
i550 -- 141


Rocket 22 at 93??? Where's that? All the active boats in the PNW are in the 110-120 range. Similar to the Dart.

#29 Ryley

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:05 PM

If 99 is a gift to a Melges 24 then phrf ne is christmas all year long at 102.

#30 John D

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:38 PM


Thanks for the info guys. I will write more when I'm not working. We do have a decent PHRF board here, and with strong Lightning and Etchells fleets on the lake, all these boats are likely to be rated. I'm just hoping to get an idea of the performance order even if different regions have different ratings.

I know the question we will really want to answer for next year is J/70 vs Melges 20, perhaps with J/80 as the reference PHRF boat.

Cool on the i550! The more the merrier.

Thanks!

jason


If you have enough race results (particularly with the Lightnings) you might consider Portsmouth. If you have one of those scoring programs and you stuff it with previous race results it'll pop out a Portsmouth rating lickety split.

On the light lake I used to sail on the U20 rated and sailed very similar to a Star FWIW even though dissimilar boats

Speng is right on! Don't consider portsmouth, USE IT. It may have to be administered somewhat, but not nearly to the degree that PHRF does. Less administration + less politics = less bullshit. Oh an BTW ......get a new organization to do it. The golf pro at our course tell me that for 20 bucks I can register for my golf handicap and it takes less than 8 seconds for a change to be published nationwide........Just say'in.

#31 Mike in CT

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:50 PM



FT10m -- 51
Mumm 30 -- 51
Cheetah 30 -- 78
Viper 830 -- 75
Antrim 27 -- 81
Shaw 650 -- 87
Melges 24 -- 87
VX One -- 96
Viper 640 -- 90
Rocket 22 -- 93
Left Coast Dart -- 105
Melges 20 -- 108
J/80 -- 120
Ultimate 20 -- 141
J/70 -- 105
Open 5.70 -- 141
i550 -- 141


Where is this magical place where a M24 rates 87 and a Viper 830 rates 75? I must go there!

Its more about the relative spread between the boats... The Melges is 84 in NorCal and SoCal is it not?
Also assuming that the Melges can use their class legal, RRS illegal hiking aids and the others are complying with the RRS. A Melges 24 at "99" is a fucking joke if they can hang crew off of straps like sacks of potatoes and nobody else can do the same.

yeah, I was looking at the relative spread between the boats. Here on LIS the M24 is 90 and my V830 is 66. that is a spread of 24 where as it is a 12 sec spread as listed above.

#32 Ryley

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:38 PM

your vipe would be 66 in Boston too, but the M24 at 102 - a nice 36 second spread. Is your vipe competitive at 24s? would it be at 12? Is it not at 36? more importantly how do you do against j109s which rate pretty even with you?

#33 Mike in CT

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:23 PM

your vipe would be 66 in Boston too, but the M24 at 102 - a nice 36 second spread. Is your vipe competitive at 24s? would it be at 12? Is it not at 36? more importantly how do you do against j109s which rate pretty even with you?

I can't believe they have the M24 at 102. If anyone sails an M24 with that rating and doesn't win every race they enter by miles they really suck.
We're pretty competative at the 24sec delta. There is a well sailed 24 in town that beats us most of the time on hadicap but we're getting faster each season.
I think the 109 rating is good at 67 they are faster up wind and we make up the difference down wind.

#34 Kevin Farrar

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:41 PM

ECSA PHRF has blessed the my GP 26 with a rating of 69.
Kevin

#35 Christian

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:58 PM


your vipe would be 66 in Boston too, but the M24 at 102 - a nice 36 second spread. Is your vipe competitive at 24s? would it be at 12? Is it not at 36? more importantly how do you do against j109s which rate pretty even with you?

I can't believe they have the M24 at 102. If anyone sails an M24 with that rating and doesn't win every race they enter by miles they really suck.
We're pretty competative at the 24sec delta. There is a well sailed 24 in town that beats us most of the time on hadicap but we're getting faster each season.
I think the 109 rating is good at 67 they are faster up wind and we make up the difference down wind.


Most of the times i have raced against M24's we have owed them 30 s/m which we had no real problem with - haven't had one beat us yet. Funny thing is that we used to rate 66 in several PHRF areas but now rate 75 in Naptown (some of the other boats also rate a little slower here but no by that much - eg we used to owe a J35 6 s/m - now they owe us 3 s/m. Oh well - it is only PHRF - not the world series

#36 Heriberto

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:49 AM

ECSA PHRF has blessed the my GP 26 with a rating of 69.
Kevin


My Donovan 30 rates 84. 3300lbs, masthead symmetrical, UULDB rather than "sportboat" I think. A stiff rating in reaching or moderate-high conditions or upwind high breeze (fuggedibowdit) . But downwind? Medals.

GP26 seems maybe punitive too much.

ECSA PHRF has blessed the my GP 26 with a rating of 69.
Kevin


My Donovan 30 rates 84. 3300lbs, masthead symmetrical, UULDB rather than "sportboat" I think. A stiff rating in reaching or moderate-high conditions or upwind high breeze (fuggedibowdit) . But downwind? Medals.

GP26 seems maybe punitive too much.

#37 airacer

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:00 AM

The golf pro at our course tell me that for 20 bucks I can register for my golf handicap and it takes less than 8 seconds for a change to be published nationwide........Just say'in.


That's a novel idea.

#38 steveromagnino

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:40 AM

Why don't u start using sms if u r racing sportsboat vs sportsboat?

It would get rid of some of the issues.

U can check on the australian ratings; the gap between m24 shaw650 and viper seem about right based on win-loss and mostly seems to work.

As soon as u race leadmines it becomes very one off; in one breeze u slaughter them in another u r only matching them. No matter what system is used.


#39 Savage 17

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:56 PM

ECSA PHRF has blessed the my GP 26 with a rating of 69.
Kevin


And I bet it will end up around 60 when it is finally sorted out.... The 1st year a boat is out is when it has the highest ratings. I remember when the Mumm 30 came out and had a rating in the 80's and now it is 51......

#40 Streetwise

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:32 PM

Why don't u start using sms if u r racing sportsboat vs sportsboat?

It would get rid of some of the issues.

U can check on the australian ratings; the gap between m24 shaw650 and viper seem about right based on win-loss and mostly seems to work.

As soon as u race leadmines it becomes very one off; in one breeze u slaughter them in another u r only matching them. No matter what system is used.


When we hit enough for a fleet, that's what I want to try! How easy would it be to measure boats that haven't raced in Australia like the the Rocket 22 and such?

#41 killapenguin

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:08 AM

In Hawaii we have a relatively small fleet. "Average" winds are 13-18 knots, but 20-25+ is not unusual. Less than 12 knots is rare. When it's windy, the Melges 24's are generally untouchable (they're typically racing against non-planing keel boats like J-33, J-24, etc.). Haven't had a chance yet to put our 5.70 up against a Melges 24 in windy conditions to see how the numbers stack up. Ratings are as follows. It's somewhat unusual to get more than 3 of these boats on the same line.

Melges 24 - 75
Antrim 27 - 87
Open 5.70 - 138
J-80 - 120
Henderson 30 - 45
Sonoma 30 - 96

#42 oddsailor

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:33 PM

hyerstay, since you mentioned that it's a light air lake, it might be worth looking at the probability of racing in wind that would get the sportboats planing and base the ratings spread on that. If the chance is close to zero, you could easily assume all boats will be in displacement-mode all the time.
I know that in Toronto we rarely (once per season, if lucky) get conditions for the M24s to plane - most of the time it's in the 8-12kn wind range. In this the Melges 24s who decide to line up are barely any faster than the cruiser/racers. They rate at 84 here and while they're well sailed they rarely rank in the top 1/2 if the PHRF I fleet: http://www.thenyc.co...?sub=4&subSub=2 (this is from 2011, but they didn't do any better in '12 - check the 'Summer Series' link at the bottom of the page)
If you want to encourage the sportboats to join the PHRF group, maybe give them a 'nice' provisional rating to begin with based on their displacement speed and revisit it after the 'spring series' or some pre-determined number of races.
The worst would be to do all this and at the end get them coming out only once or twice.

#43 Gregg

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:10 PM

I cannot believe that the J70 would be given a rating of 111. They would have no chance on the race course sailing PHRF.

#44 Streetwise

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:58 PM

Our Etchells fleet has a Monday night (not every week) series throughout the summer, and I'm going to try to get us our own start in that series. We can probably go with as few as three to four boats to get this going and try to grow interest in sportboat racing. This could also let us try racing under Portsmouth or even SMS.

#45 Thigh high

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:33 PM

This is a "cat herding" exersice under PHRF. My suggestion is that you go with SMS. It's in sailwave and most of the boats are already measured. At least it's a measurement rating system rather than a subjective handicap system. It's growing in the rest of the world.

#46 Streetwise

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

This is a "cat herding" exersice under PHRF. My suggestion is that you go with SMS. It's in sailwave and most of the boats are already measured. At least it's a measurement rating system rather than a subjective handicap system. It's growing in the rest of the world.


Is there anyone outside of Australia using it yet? Viper 640 and VX One are rated, but we would also need ratings for Melges 20, Open 5.70, Open 5.00, and J/70.

#47 Thigh high

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:05 PM

I heard that it's in 6 countries but I don't have the facts to back that up. They tried starting it in the PNW where we had "one offs" that needed to be measured: Rockets, Seirra 26, Darts, 243s, 5.00 etc but it started raining and it never happened. But they have a facebook page (I'll post it) Aparently, ASBA were super helpful.
The point is that PHRF has, to use a better term, too much baggage. Do you think you will get everyone agree, never. Under a measurement system, under certain conditions, any well sailed boat has a chance to win.
and who outside of NA uses PHRF???

#48 Thigh high

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:07 PM

http://www.facebook....17484491606005/

NW Sportboat Association

#49 Streetwise

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:44 AM

I decided to try to do something on this topic and sent out an email to the local sportboat owners in the bay to propose a Monday night series with our own start on the nights where our club currently hosts an Etchells series. These are short windward leeward courses where we've gotten up to four races in a night. Of course as soon as I sent the email, I thought perhaps we sportboat folks should do our own alternating Monday but be RC for the Etchells, and the Etchells fleet can RC for us. I'm not sure which would be better. Or even a three week rotation that gets our 10 local Lasers on the race course too, and encourages participation in all of these fleets for anyone who can sail Mondays.

We are pushing for the following local boats:

J/70
J/70
Melges 20
Open 5.00
Open 5.70
Viper 640

Perhaps another Viper 640 from the New York side of the lake would join us, and eventually an i550. I have also sold my share of the local Viper 640 and will be adding another sportboat to the fleet in the future (TBD).

As far as scoring, if we are doing our own thing and don't have to integrate into any overall spinnaker fleet results for a race or series, I am more seriously considering SMS.

I would love to hear from an involved Australian who could let us know how to measure the one-design boats that haven't been measured down under yet. Australia has the Viper 640 and VX One measured, but we need the Open 5.00, Open 5.70, Melges 20, and J/70 rated too. Even ratings based on brochure data would be a start.

Cheers from Vermont,

jason

#50 cstay

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:20 AM

Jason i will talk to Brad about this and see if he is interested in this. He is a MBBC member you are LCYC correct? What would some of the logistics for him.

#51 Streetwise

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:57 AM

It would be awesome to have Brad bring his Viper 640 down to join us! We have to hit a minimum participation for this to happen, but if we do, I have support from the club and the regatta committee and the race management group.

I sold my share of my Viper 640 to my co-owner, and will be getting another boat to add to the mix too. I'm just not sure when that will happen quite yet.

#52 cstay

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

My question is besides joining LCYC what are his options for boat storage launch down there? He is a member of MBBC but that would be a bit of a trip each time for a monday night race. Especially on a boat with no motor.

#53 Ryley

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:43 PM

ECSA PHRF has blessed the my GP 26 with a rating of 69.
Kevin

Wow, so they expect you to be almost as fast as a j/109. Can't wait to see if that bears out - I mean I know it's going to be fast downwind, but in sub-planing conditions, you're still a 26' boat.

#54 Streetwise

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:10 PM

My question is besides joining LCYC what are his options for boat storage launch down there? He is a member of MBBC but that would be a bit of a trip each time for a monday night race. Especially on a boat with no motor.

The best idea I heard was for him to keep it at the Lake Champlain Community Sailing Center, which isn't too far away.

#55 schoonerman

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:13 PM

I like what's going on with the HPR. Wish SMS could go fully international with some structure like this.

http://www.hprsailin...out/what-is-hpr

#56 FUNK

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:27 AM

Has anyone seen a rating for Esse 9.90?

#57 Spar Wars

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 05:12 AM

All the discussion comparing different PHRF areas is futile. You can't have a PHRF 'number' for SF that is correct for Ontario. Two completely different situations.

PHRF works like this:

1. a territory handicapping board (gets rid of politics and gifts)
2. It sets up an appeal process. You can appeal your own rating or someone else's
3. It is based on conditions in your area.

This discussion is all about this: Confusious says: Man with two watches on, doesn't know what time it is.
A rating here is one watch and a rating there is another watch. Neither is correct; or is it?

Support your area PHRF by BUYING a certificate every year. It supports the appeal process, which is the beauty of PHRF. Try it with HPR, IRC or ORR!

#58 NYBOZO1

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:04 AM

There is no beauty in phrf.

Tried it last year and am extremely disapointed with the experience.

Going back to one design.

#59 Ryley

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:32 PM

All the discussion comparing different PHRF areas is futile. You can't have a PHRF 'number' for SF that is correct for Ontario. Two completely different situations.

PHRF works like this:

1. a territory handicapping board (gets rid of politics and gifts)
2. It sets up an appeal process. You can appeal your own rating or someone else's
3. It is based on conditions in your area.

This discussion is all about this: Confusious says: Man with two watches on, doesn't know what time it is.
A rating here is one watch and a rating there is another watch. Neither is correct; or is it?

Support your area PHRF by BUYING a certificate every year. It supports the appeal process, which is the beauty of PHRF. Try it with HPR, IRC or ORR!


sorry man, I love your idealism but if you think there isn't politics in each and every local rating board, you're nuts. appeal process? yep, there is one. I'm involved in one right now (not my boat) where there is empirical evidence (something phrf actually seems to hate) that a class of boat's rating is off by around 9s/mile and the general response from PHRF wonks has been "before you go after them, learn to sail your boat better." In other words, your case may have merit, but we're going to continue to let you lose until you can prove otherwise. Two watches? Ok, why is my new rudder worth 1s/mile in Boston, 3s/mile in Connecticut, and 6s/mile in the chesapeake? my rudder really makes that much difference in 3 locations with essentially the same conditions?

PHRF is broke, arbitrary, and completely full of politics. just. like. every. rating system. :)

#60 Mambo Kings

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:36 PM


All the discussion comparing different PHRF areas is futile. You can't have a PHRF 'number' for SF that is correct for Ontario. Two completely different situations.

PHRF works like this:

1. a territory handicapping board (gets rid of politics and gifts)
2. It sets up an appeal process. You can appeal your own rating or someone else's
3. It is based on conditions in your area.

This discussion is all about this: Confusious says: Man with two watches on, doesn't know what time it is.
A rating here is one watch and a rating there is another watch. Neither is correct; or is it?

Support your area PHRF by BUYING a certificate every year. It supports the appeal process, which is the beauty of PHRF. Try it with HPR, IRC or ORR!


sorry man, I love your idealism but if you think there isn't politics in each and every local rating board, you're nuts. appeal process? yep, there is one. I'm involved in one right now (not my boat) where there is empirical evidence (something phrf actually seems to hate) that a class of boat's rating is off by around 9s/mile and the general response from PHRF wonks has been "before you go after them, learn to sail your boat better." In other words, your case may have merit, but we're going to continue to let you lose until you can prove otherwise. Two watches? Ok, why is my new rudder worth 1s/mile in Boston, 3s/mile in Connecticut, and 6s/mile in the chesapeake? my rudder really makes that much difference in 3 locations with essentially the same conditions?

PHRF is broke, arbitrary, and completely full of politics. just. like. every. rating system. :)


The PHRF rating differences between different areas are impossible to rationalize logically. As long as it is fun to be out there, you will be okay. If you are going to take PHRF results seriously then you are going to have a short, miserable life.

Do like Ryley and get a fast boat, make modifications based on quality of the sailing experience not rating (eg his rudder) and you are going to have fun sailing around the course in the company of other boats. You may occasionaly get a good result in certain conditions but always remember to credit the rating for good and bad results and always carry beer when racing PHRF.

#61 6924

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:32 PM

Mambo is most correct:

PHRF racing should be fun above all else.

The most fun PHRF boat I ever sailed on came mostly DFL in every beercan race we entered ; the team knew how to sail very well, but also recognized the primary purpose of beercan racing = 'fun'.

After the hoist; Pit would go below, turn up the music, and then blend some summer rum drinks. We 'race' downwind with big drinks in our hands, listening to good music, laughing all the way down the course.

We'd always get to the club in a very fine mood.


#62 Irish River

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:43 PM

Mambo is most correct:

PHRF racing should be fun above all else.



Ya, we treat racing as fun. We have beer holders and the music is cranked at the start. O wait we do that for "serious" races too. At the M24 Nationals last year we had a few comments that we weren't taking it seriously, it only encourages us to turn the tunes up to 11.

#63 Streetwise

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:08 AM

I am reviving this thread with the northeast NA season starting up, and new boats actually here or on the way. I am going to post my best guess of what I think the following ratings should be in a light wind area where upwind performance is paramount. I will include a few reference displacement boat ratings for our PHRF region.

 

099 - J/92s (reference)

099 - Melges 24

105 - J/92 (reference)

108 - Viper 640 (is 102 now)

108 - VX One (guess!)

111 - J/29 MHOB (reference)

111 - Rocket 22 (TBD)

114 - J/29 FROBPP (reference)

114 - Melges 20 (is now 111)

117 - J/29 FROB (reference)

117 - J/70 (TBD)

120 - J/80 (reference in OD config)

138 - Open 5.70 (guess!)

165 - Open 5.00


What do you think?

 

Thanks!



#64 Ryley

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:33 PM

117 for the J/70? I thought that boat had afterburners. now you're saying it should rate higher than a Melges 20? I don't think you need more than this list to see just how ludicrous PHRF has become.



#65 6924

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:53 PM

just don't take it too seriously



#66 Streetwise

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:55 PM

They haven't given out a PHRF rating in my area for the J/70 yet, but it will probably be around 117-120. I don't know what rating they will give the VX One that is coming either. I was asking for feedback here not to mock PHRF but to get some expectations for how these boats will rate relative to each other. I'll have a much better idea at the end of the season. Maybe we are one of the few spots where these sportboats will all be sharing a start line and class racing for for a whole season. I plan to have our sportboat group provide some feedback to the PHRF committee at the end of the season because we have agreed that we want to rate fairly against each other. While the Viper and J/70 may eventually get enough boats up here for one design starts, we think a mixed sportboat fleet is still way better than just being random sportboats in the middle of bigger keelboat fleets. We have 2 x J/70, 1 x M20, 1 x Open 5.00, 1 x Open 5.70 (if they race), 2 x Viper 640, 1 x VX One, and a Rocket 22 that may show up.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason (Viper sailor)



#67 Streetwise

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

just don't take it too seriously

 

Our group knows that our performance curves don't match up across all the wind ranges, but we still want to enjoy the competition that is available. I know I will mostly be speed tuning against the other Viper and the VX, and the two J/70s will be doing the same with each other. If we have fun and attract more sailors to sportboats, we might have the chance for local one design in the future. It doesn't happen overnight.

 

I should also note that we will be experimenting with SMS re-scoring of our races to see how that works out, and perhaps provide data for our PHRF committee.

 

Cheers,

 

jason



#68 zerothehero

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

Jason,  you still sailing the Viper?



#69 Streetwise

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

Nope. Sold my half of 42. Now I am getting another used Viper in about ten days. Back to yes again! Now there are two here! You want to come up for some races? I still haven't solidified my crew situation, and I'm not sure where Mark stands either.



#70 Kevin Farrar

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:44 PM

Hi Jason,

Could you PM your yra's schedule to me? Or post a link. Depending on events, $$ and timing I'd consider bringing the GP 26 up for a Wednesday and/or weekend.

Kevin



#71 Christian

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

I am reviving this thread with the northeast NA season starting up, and new boats actually here or on the way. I am going to post my best guess of what I think the following ratings should be in a light wind area where upwind performance is paramount. I will include a few reference displacement boat ratings for our PHRF region.

 

099 - J/92s (reference)

099 - Melges 24

105 - J/92 (reference)

108 - Viper 640 (is 102 now)

108 - VX One (guess!)

111 - J/29 MHOB (reference)

111 - Rocket 22 (TBD)

114 - J/29 FROBPP (reference)

114 - Melges 20 (is now 111)

117 - J/29 FROB (reference)

117 - J/70 (TBD)

120 - J/80 (reference in OD config)

138 - Open 5.70 (guess!)

165 - Open 5.00


What do you think?

 

Thanks!

You obviously have to go out and try these numbers out.  Trouble is that with as few boats as you have (1-2 of each) you end up golf handicapping the sailors just as much as the boats - which is just another way to do handicrap racing and distribute the pickle dishes.

 

Couple of comments:

 

V640 and M24 are more like 3 seconds (6 seconds MAX) apart

V640 and M20 are much more than 6 seconds apart - more like 21

 

Be careful not to try to curry-favor the ratings in your own favor or you will have this attempt fall apart really quickly



#72 Streetwise

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:07 PM

Hi Jason,

Could you PM your yra's schedule to me? Or post a link. Depending on events, $$ and timing I'd consider bringing the GP 26 up for a Wednesday and/or weekend.

Kevin

 

Sure no problem! We'd love to have you come up! Weekend races are free, and we only charge local non-members for a full season of Wednesdays and/or Mondays, and no one would charge for just one or two guest Wednesdays or Mondays. Here is the schedule: LCYC Events



#73 Streetwise

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:24 PM

You obviously have to go out and try these numbers out.  Trouble is that with as few boats as you have (1-2 of each) you end up golf handicapping the sailors just as much as the boats - which is just another way to do handicrap racing and distribute the pickle dishes.

 

Couple of comments:

 

V640 and M24 are more like 3 seconds (6 seconds MAX) apart

V640 and M20 are much more than 6 seconds apart - more like 21

 

Be careful not to try to curry-favor the ratings in your own favor or you will have this attempt fall apart really quickly

 

We are coming off a season of competing with J/29s and J/92s and such, and it seemed like the Viper should (in light wind) fit between the J/92 and the J/29s. Most of the folks in the Viper class feel that the Viper is 9 seconds slower than the M24. Currently we rate 3 seconds slower (99 to 102). However, the M24 owner traded down to a Melges 20 the same season we brought the Viper in, so we haven't seen that comparison first-hand. I do know that the M20 has a hard time sailing to the 111 rating, and I think that number should go up. They didn't sail much last year, so I don't have as much of an idea of how much it should go up.

 

For the J/70, I was really hoping to see some elapsed times posted as part of the CRW results, so we could reference a bunch of J/70s compared to a bunch of Vipers. Actually I would say the same for the M20 vs M24, since they shared a course.

 

It sounds like you think the M20 would be more like 123. I could see that. Where would you see the J/70 then? The Etchells here currently rate 126 (I think they should be 120) and we will be sharing a Monday night series of just Etchells and sportboats, so that would provide some comparison.

 

Thanks!



#74 Ryley

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:25 PM

They haven't given out a PHRF rating in my area for the J/70 yet, but it will probably be around 117-120. I don't know what rating they will give the VX One that is coming either. I was asking for feedback here not to mock PHRF but to get some expectations for how these boats will rate relative to each other. I'll have a much better idea at the end of the season. Maybe we are one of the few spots where these sportboats will all be sharing a start line and class racing for for a whole season. I plan to have our sportboat group provide some feedback to the PHRF committee at the end of the season because we have agreed that we want to rate fairly against each other. While the Viper and J/70 may eventually get enough boats up here for one design starts, we think a mixed sportboat fleet is still way better than just being random sportboats in the middle of bigger keelboat fleets. We have 2 x J/70, 1 x M20, 1 x Open 5.00, 1 x Open 5.70 (if they race), 2 x Viper 640, 1 x VX One, and a Rocket 22 that may show up.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason (Viper sailor)

I agree with you and I apologize. it's been a crappy year with PHRF wonks for me this year and racing hasn't even started yet, but that is no reflection on what you're trying to do. Good onya.



#75 Streetwise

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:40 PM

Thanks man. You had me thinking I should name my Viper "Afterburners". ;)



#76 (p)Irate

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:28 AM

I decided to try to do something on this topic and sent out an email to the local sportboat owners in the bay to propose a Monday night series with our own start on the nights where our club currently hosts an Etchells series. These are short windward leeward courses where we've gotten up to four races in a night. Of course as soon as I sent the email, I thought perhaps we sportboat folks should do our own alternating Monday but be RC for the Etchells, and the Etchells fleet can RC for us. I'm not sure which would be better. Or even a three week rotation that gets our 10 local Lasers on the race course too, and encourages participation in all of these fleets for anyone who can sail Mondays.

We are pushing for the following local boats:

J/70
J/70
Melges 20
Open 5.00
Open 5.70
Viper 640

Perhaps another Viper 640 from the New York side of the lake would join us, and eventually an i550. I have also sold my share of the local Viper 640 and will be adding another sportboat to the fleet in the future (TBD).

As far as scoring, if we are doing our own thing and don't have to integrate into any overall spinnaker fleet results for a race or series, I am more seriously considering SMS.

I would love to hear from an involved Australian who could let us know how to measure the one-design boats that haven't been measured down under yet. Australia has the Viper 640 and VX One measured, but we need the Open 5.00, Open 5.70, Melges 20, and J/70 rated too. Even ratings based on brochure data would be a start.

Cheers from Vermont,

jason

This link http://www.vic.yacht...Office/22140/0/ takes you to the Yachting Victoria Rating Office (its the mobile site so hope it works on desktops). The measurement information is contained in the AMS&SMS Yearbook. Contact YV about appointing some measurers in the US. I believe it's a fairly painless process, especially if you're already a measurer for something else (eg IRC).

We have a heap of one-off designs racing quite successfully in ASBA events under SMS.

#77 (p)Irate

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:32 AM

Sorry, my bad. That was the old site. Try this one.
http://www.clubmarin...ngs/22141/41822

#78 armac

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 12:10 PM

Is it possible to see the "formula" for SMS and AMS?

 

Thanks,

 

Rob



#79 (p)Irate

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 12:11 AM

Is it possible to see the "formula" for SMS and AMS?
 
Thanks,
 
Rob

Apparently not. YV keep it a secret to prevent designers finding loopholes and building rule-beaters. As is also done with IRC.

#80 Steam Flyer

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 12:50 PM

All the discussion comparing different PHRF areas is futile. You can't have a PHRF 'number' for SF that is correct for Ontario. Two completely different situations.

PHRF works like this:

1. a territory handicapping board (gets rid of politics and gifts)
2. It sets up an appeal process. You can appeal your own rating or someone else's
3. It is based on conditions in your area.

This discussion is all about this: Confusious says: Man with two watches on, doesn't know what time it is.
A rating here is one watch and a rating there is another watch. Neither is correct; or is it?

Support your area PHRF by BUYING a certificate every year. It supports the appeal process, which is the beauty of PHRF. Try it with HPR, IRC or ORR!


sorry man, I love your idealism but if you think there isn't politics in each and every local rating board, you're nuts. appeal process? yep, there is one. I'm involved in one right now (not my boat) where there is empirical evidence (something phrf actually seems to hate) that a class of boat's rating is off by around 9s/mile and the general response from PHRF wonks has been "before you go after them, learn to sail your boat better." In other words, your case may have merit, but we're going to continue to let you lose until you can prove otherwise. Two watches? Ok, why is my new rudder worth 1s/mile in Boston, 3s/mile in Connecticut, and 6s/mile in the chesapeake? my rudder really makes that much difference in 3 locations with essentially the same conditions?

PHRF is broke, arbitrary, and completely full of politics. just. like. every. rating system. :)

 

ding ding ding we have a winner

 

It would make more sense to compile a table of boats PHRF ratings relative to each other in as many regions as they are rated (or as many as data is available).

 

That way, a local committee could look at the deltas between any two boats in question, by region, and get an idea how conditions (windy, choppy, whiny, etc etc) affect it. Remember PHRF is a measured performance rating, in which it's all but impossible to seperate performance of the sailor from the performance of the boat. If a boat is always losing or always winning, then the committee SHOULD look at the rating. That's the committee's job.

 

FB- Doug



#81 Spar Wars

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 01:13 PM

All the discussion comparing different PHRF areas is futile. You can't have a PHRF 'number' for SF that is correct for Ontario. Two completely different situations.

PHRF works like this:

1. a territory handicapping board (gets rid of politics and gifts)
2. It sets up an appeal process. You can appeal your own rating or someone else's
3. It is based on conditions in your area.

This discussion is all about this: Confusious says: Man with two watches on, doesn't know what time it is.
A rating here is one watch and a rating there is another watch. Neither is correct; or is it?

Support your area PHRF by BUYING a certificate every year. It supports the appeal process, which is the beauty of PHRF. Try it with HPR, IRC or ORR!

sorry man, I love your idealism but if you think there isn't politics in each and every local rating board, you're nuts. appeal process? yep, there is one. I'm involved in one right now (not my boat) where there is empirical evidence (something phrf actually seems to hate) that a class of boat's rating is off by around 9s/mile and the general response from PHRF wonks has been "before you go after them, learn to sail your boat better." In other words, your case may have merit, but we're going to continue to let you lose until you can prove otherwise. Two watches? Ok, why is my new rudder worth 1s/mile in Boston, 3s/mile in Connecticut, and 6s/mile in the chesapeake? my rudder really makes that much difference in 3 locations with essentially the same conditions?

PHRF is broke, arbitrary, and completely full of politics. just. like. every. rating system. :)

 
ding ding ding we have a winner
 
It would make more sense to compile a table of boats PHRF ratings relative to each other in as many regions as they are rated (or as many as data is available).
 
That way, a local committee could look at the deltas between any two boats in question, by region, and get an idea how conditions (windy, choppy, whiny, etc etc) affect it. Remember PHRF is a measured performance rating, in which it's all but impossible to seperate performance of the sailor from the performance of the boat. If a boat is always losing or always winning, then the committee SHOULD look at the rating. That's the committee's job.
 
FB- Doug
PHRF is not broke. It is a 'single number' system, just like all the rest (exceptions to Portsmouth & ORR) and it is subjected to beef's of individuals in the bar's after every race. In reality..the boats ARE rated fairly. PERIOD.

However...that single number you get will penalize you in air that doesn't compliment your boat. It will penalize you if the boat you drive is performing very well somewhere else in your region. You will win when it is your turn...if you don't make mistakes. Is there anyone out there that has analyzed HOW MUCH extra handicap they needed to win that race you are beefing about? Wouldn't you be ashamed to find you needed another 18 seconds a mile?

That's reality...you can't win a handicap race by wishing you had more handicap. You have to sail to the handicap!

18 seconds...thiMk about it!

#82 Ryley

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

PHRF IS broke if there is no factual basis for ratings differences. A square top that measures in to class rules may get no hit in one area but -3s in another. A rudder modification may range from -1 to -6. Some boats I know of have been continually rated down until they no longer are competitive against boats OWNED BY MEMBERS OF THE PHRF Committees. PHRF is subjective and its broken. It has very little to do with a single race and whether we should have won or what size penalty we would have needed to podium. I know when I've sailed a good race, and I generally know when I've been beaten by superior tactics and when I've been beaten by a rating.



#83 Kevin Farrar

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 03:32 PM

Lance,

Have you received your number for BIRW yet?? I'm a little curious. Kevin



#84 6924

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 03:42 PM

I think Schoonerman reckons the J/70 and Ultimate 20 are about 6 seconds apart in PHRF.



#85 Bulbhunter

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 03:50 PM

Look up SF YRA ratings. We sail nearly zero wind conditions in the winter and big wind conditions in the summer. The board that rates boats has several highly respected designers sitting on it.

 

U20 is 141 for the PHRF oversized kite. Stock U20's with class gear run 144. I think the viper runs 108 though this has been updated a few times since I last recall looking so could be a little different today.

 

One thing is for sure some boats are complete dogs in light air the U20 and the Viper are not they often post some of their best mixed fleet numbers in the light air events.



#86 Ryley

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 04:19 PM

Lance,

Have you received your number for BIRW yet?? I'm a little curious. Kevin

111. Base 117 -3 for the rudder and -3 for the square top. Lowest rating in the area. Will be fun to see how that plays out in double-handed sailing.



#87 SA Lurker

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:44 PM

It would make more sense to compile a table of boats PHRF ratings relative to each other in as many regions as they are rated (or as many as data is available).

 

That way, a local committee could look at the deltas between any two boats in question, by region, and get an idea how conditions (windy, choppy, whiny, etc etc) affect it. Remember PHRF is a measured performance rating, in which it's all but impossible to seperate performance of the sailor from the performance of the boat. If a boat is always losing or always winning, then the committee SHOULD look at the rating. That's the committee's job.

 

FB- Doug

 

An extensive record of PHRF ratings by boat and region is published by USSailing and is often used as you suggest it be.

Nevertheless, PHRF boils down to "Horses for Courses".

If winning is what matters most, choose your mount wisely.

The most-difficult boats to rate are the one-offs or customs for which there is no fleet comparison to establish a reasoned rating.

It is not unusual for such boats to be consistant winners or losers, and yes, the rating should be reviewed in either case.



#88 Ryley

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:56 PM

Mr. Lurker, 

how do you feel about the imputed handicap methods described on the USSA site? Do you see them being used at any PHRF level to try to level the ratings, or are they just a nice theoretical methodology?



#89 Savage 17

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:54 PM

Ryley,

 

I had owned a boat once that was modified with new keel. I would recommend to anyone, not to modify your boat unless history exists for similar modifications to similar boats. The other part that kills me is no standard exists between the governing bodies. Ryley's boat is a key example... his local PHRF could give him a rating hit of -1 for rudder and -1 for Fat Head main. He now wants to go race at block island race week and the phrf committee gives him a -3 for rudder and a -3 for the fat head main. I'm not picking on either organization, but it is hard for me to understand the discrepancy...

 

I also don't understand why Block Island which is part of RI isn't governed by PHRF - NB (Narragansett Bay) but i guess that is why it says the bay... I know PHRF-NE and PHRF-NB are closer in the rating hits from what I have seen....



#90 Ryley

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:32 AM

Savage, it's even worse than that. Off Soundings is governed by ECSA, BIRW by YRALIS, and Greenport Ocean Race by PHRF ELIS. all three give me different ratings to sail in the same waters. Furthermore, the square top is class legal, in fact is smaller than the girth measurements in the class rule, but the ONLY phrf that has hit me for it (so far) is YRALIS for BIRW. 

 

But even knowing what I know now, I would still have done the new rudder. The old rudder was costing me nearly $150/year getting the cage re-welded and re-annealed, and that was for a pig that had more weather helm than the Pearson Wanderers I used to race on. I'm fine with taking a hit on the rating, I just wished it were consistent. Btw, the PHRF of the Chesapeake was going to hit me -6 for the rudder, which to me just sounds like someone throwing a dart at a board.



#91 Steam Flyer

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:32 PM



PHRF is not broke. It is a 'single number' system, just like all the rest (exceptions to Portsmouth & ORR) and it is subjected to beef's of individuals in the bar's after every race. In reality..the boats ARE rated fairly. PERIOD.

However...that single number you get will penalize you in air that doesn't compliment your boat. It will penalize you if the boat you drive is performing very well somewhere else in your region. You will win when it is your turn...if you don't make mistakes. Is there anyone out there that has analyzed HOW MUCH extra handicap they needed to win that race you are beefing about? Wouldn't you be ashamed to find you needed another 18 seconds a mile?

That's reality...you can't win a handicap race by wishing you had more handicap. You have to sail to the handicap!

18 seconds...thiMk about it!

 

 

In some regions, PHRF is a broken system. You cannot "sail to a handicap" if there is no basis in reality for the handicap assigned. It is one thing to whine that one doesn't win under a given handicap, it is another thing entirely if Russel Coutts and Paul Elvstrom both could never win with it.

 

A lot of whining is due to ill-prepared boats, lack of skill, or both. A lot of whining is due to the perception that people who win often are somehow cheating. In my experience, this goes on in one-design fleets too... even Lasers are not all all created equal, and occasionally a sailor here and there decides to modify his one-design boat in ways that he'd prefer the rest of the class not know about, but there are always well-prepared boats and beaters...

 

Nor do I think that having a lot of respected yacht designers on the rating committee is a guaranteed fix. The best thing about PHRF is that it is administered locally, and you can sit down with your sailing peers & friends and work out a fair set of numbers. Takes some time & effort, so don't expect everything to become wonderful at the snap of a finger. The worst thing about PHRF is that it is administered locally, and there is occasionally nepotism and unrealistic numbers thrown into the scrum. If you think your local PHRF committee is screwing up, then sit down with them and present your case. Volunteer some time to try to improve the system. You could end up sitting on the committee yourself.

 

All that aside, I generally keep my one-design trophies on the front of the shelf. The PHRF ones, not so much. But I do enjoy having a boat that is practical & economical for me & my family, and racing it is fun without having to persuade a dozen other people to buy one just like it. That's why I race PHRF and why I'll continue to do so.

 

FB- Doug



#92 Spar Wars

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:58 PM

PHRF is not broke. It is a 'single number' system, just like all the rest (exceptions to Portsmouth & ORR) and it is subjected to beef's of individuals in the bar's after every race. In reality..the boats ARE rated fairly. PERIOD.

However...that single number you get will penalize you in air that doesn't compliment your boat. It will penalize you if the boat you drive is performing very well somewhere else in your region. You will win when it is your turn...if you don't make mistakes. Is there anyone out there that has analyzed HOW MUCH extra handicap they needed to win that race you are beefing about? Wouldn't you be ashamed to find you needed another 18 seconds a mile?

That's reality...you can't win a handicap race by wishing you had more handicap. You have to sail to the handicap!

18 seconds...thiMk about it!

 
 
In some regions, PHRF is a broken system. You cannot "sail to a handicap" if there is no basis in reality for the handicap assigned. It is one thing to whine that one doesn't win under a given handicap, it is another thing entirely if Russel Coutts and Paul Elvstrom both could never win with it.
 
A lot of whining is due to ill-prepared boats, lack of skill, or both. A lot of whining is due to the perception that people who win often are somehow cheating. In my experience, this goes on in one-design fleets too... even Lasers are not all all created equal, and occasionally a sailor here and there decides to modify his one-design boat in ways that he'd prefer the rest of the class not know about, but there are always well-prepared boats and beaters...
 
Nor do I think that having a lot of respected yacht designers on the rating committee is a guaranteed fix. The best thing about PHRF is that it is administered locally, and you can sit down with your sailing peers & friends and work out a fair set of numbers. Takes some time & effort, so don't expect everything to become wonderful at the snap of a finger. The worst thing about PHRF is that it is administered locally, and there is occasionally nepotism and unrealistic numbers thrown into the scrum. If you think your local PHRF committee is screwing up, then sit down with them and present your case. Volunteer some time to try to improve the system. You could end up sitting on the committee yourself.
 
All that aside, I generally keep my one-design trophies on the front of the shelf. The PHRF ones, not so much. But I do enjoy having a boat that is practical & economical for me & my family, and racing it is fun without having to persuade a dozen other people to buy one just like it. That's why I race PHRF and why I'll continue to do so.
 
FB- Doug
Doug..you are real close to the issue.

I'm an area handicapper for Lake Michigan PHRF. Our territory is most of the Midwest, except Detroit. Number DO vary between PHRF organizations. Each organization has its own published rules. While a J24 in LMPHRF is 168, it might be different somewhere else. BUT...the relative handicaps across the board will reflect similar differences across the board.

People need to stop trying to 'study' PHRF. That is the handicap boards duty. Let's not forget something...PHRF is a RULE by definition in the RRS. No cheating is allowed!

For those trying to analyze the rules of your local PHRF organization...study them first. If they appear wrong; ask questions. Pot shots don't help. Voices do.

The integrity of your board should be the first priority. It is your guarantee that there is NO politics/nepotism/favoritism/etc. Maybe your PHRF organization is very small? Larger organizations are more immune to these charges. Personally...I think it is beer conversation.

Next...PHRF definitely can prove its handicaps. They have formulas and rules for study of a particular boat, regardless of design. Are handicaps fixed forever? No. Are they stable most of the time. Yes.

If you can bring a particular boat and say it is unfairly rated...let me know. The rest is of these conversations expose ignorance of PHRF and its methods. Some of this may be because CLUBS are assigning handicaps from the Red/White/Blue book and then trying to modify them via various regions 'published' rules. Let me tell you that is cheating..read the definition of 'RULE' and 'CLASS RULE' in the RRS. Clubs and individuals cannot publish or 'assign' a handicap. They do not know how to apply the rules and credits/penalties. A boat must have a signed PHRF certificate to participate in PHRF events. Having a certificate allows you to race; allows you to appeal your rating; allows you to appeal another boat's rating AND it certifies you are sailing according to PHRF rules as published. (not a cheater)

#93 Spar Wars

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:03 PM

At my club on Lake Champlain in Vermont, we are more likely to have a mixed PHRF sportboat fleet before we ever have any specific model get a one design fleet. However, we have multiple sportboats around, not all of which currently race (unfortunately).

I would like to come up with a list that provides guidance for our PHRF board and anyone else trying to fit sportboats into existing fleets.

Currently, we have the following on our light wind lake, not all with boats racing:

099 - Melges 24 (no more on the lake, but most sportboat time on lake)
102 - Viper 640
111 - Melges 20
??? - J/70
??? - Open 5.70
180 - Open 5.00

Reference keel boats:

099 - J/92s OD
105 - J/92 PHRF
108 - C&C 99 OD
111 - J/29 MHOB
117 - J/29 FROB
117 - J/80 PHRF
120 - J/80 OD

We think the Viper 640 should be at 108 or even 111

The Melges 20 might belong at 114 or 117 or 120.

I have not seen the local J/70 or Open 5.70 race yet.

Where would a VX One, Ultimate 20, or a Rocket 22 go?

jason

Do your race organizers require certificates or are they trying to use the Red/White/Blue book? Do you have an actual PHRF regional board?

"We think" Who is we?

#94 Steam Flyer

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:25 PM


 

 
 
In some regions, PHRF is a broken system. You cannot "sail to a handicap" if there is no basis in reality for the handicap assigned. It is one thing to whine that one doesn't win under a given handicap, it is another thing entirely if Russel Coutts and Paul Elvstrom both could never win with it.
 
A lot of whining is due to ill-prepared boats, lack of skill, or both. A lot of whining is due to the perception that people who win often are somehow cheating. In my experience, this goes on in one-design fleets too... even Lasers are not all all created equal, and occasionally a sailor here and there decides to modify his one-design boat in ways that he'd prefer the rest of the class not know about, but there are always well-prepared boats and beaters...
 
Nor do I think that having a lot of respected yacht designers on the rating committee is a guaranteed fix. The best thing about PHRF is that it is administered locally, and you can sit down with your sailing peers & friends and work out a fair set of numbers. Takes some time & effort, so don't expect everything to become wonderful at the snap of a finger. The worst thing about PHRF is that it is administered locally, and there is occasionally nepotism and unrealistic numbers thrown into the scrum. If you think your local PHRF committee is screwing up, then sit down with them and present your case. Volunteer some time to try to improve the system. You could end up sitting on the committee yourself.
 
All that aside, I generally keep my one-design trophies on the front of the shelf. The PHRF ones, not so much. But I do enjoy having a boat that is practical & economical for me & my family, and racing it is fun without having to persuade a dozen other people to buy one just like it. That's why I race PHRF and why I'll continue to do so.
 
FB- Doug

I'm an area handicapper for Lake Michigan PHRF. Our territory is most of the Midwest, except Detroit. Number DO vary between PHRF organizations. Each organization has its own published rules. While a J24 in LMPHRF is 168, it might be different somewhere else. BUT...the relative handicaps across the board will reflect similar differences across the board.

People need to stop trying to 'study' PHRF. That is the handicap boards duty. Let's not forget something...PHRF is a RULE by definition in the RRS. No cheating is allowed!

For those trying to analyze the rules of your local PHRF organization...study them first. If they appear wrong; ask questions. Pot shots don't help. Voices do.

The integrity of your board should be the first priority. It is your guarantee that there is NO politics/nepotism/favoritism/etc. Maybe your PHRF organization is very small? Larger organizations are more immune to these charges. Personally...I think it is beer conversation.

Next...PHRF definitely can prove its handicaps. They have formulas and rules for study of a particular boat, regardless of design. Are handicaps fixed forever? No. Are they stable most of the time. Yes.

If you can bring a particular boat and say it is unfairly rated...let me know. The rest is of these conversations expose ignorance of PHRF and its methods. Some of this may be because CLUBS are assigning handicaps from the Red/White/Blue book and then trying to modify them via various regions 'published' rules. Let me tell you that is cheating..read the definition of 'RULE' and 'CLASS RULE' in the RRS. Clubs and individuals cannot publish or 'assign' a handicap. They do not know how to apply the rules and credits/penalties. A boat must have a signed PHRF certificate to participate in PHRF events. Having a certificate allows you to race; allows you to appeal your rating; allows you to appeal another boat's rating AND it certifies you are sailing according to PHRF rules as published. (not a cheater)

 

 

Yep, one way in which PHRF racers cheat is by not having the equipment or not sailing with the numbers of people required in their local PHRF rule. Yes it's a RULE... personally I don't like crowding the boat with rail meat, but then I have been to a number of events where the 'winners' have bodies stacked up on bodies despite a crew limit rule.

 

Our local PHRF committee has been the same group of guys for years, they are sick of fielding complaints from "the usual suspects" who (for the most part) do not make any realistic attempt to resolve issues. It reinforces the idea that PHRF racing is just an excuse for drinking while complaining to/about other sailors. Meanwhile, numbers dropped for a while and seem to have stabilized but it's difficult to grow the sport in this atmosphere.

 

SW when I said "step up, spend some time with the system" I was addressing the large numbers of people who feel it's broken, not you specifically.

 

FB- Doug



#95 Ryley

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 01:52 PM

Ok Spar Wars, you sound like a reasonable person. Perhaps part of the exposition of "ignorance of PHRF and its methods" is because in most areas, those methods aren't transparent. Otherwise, you could easily explain by looking at a PHRF area's bylaws why the same modification to a boat can result in -1, -3, or -6, or why one area has deemed a class-legal sail -3 while others do not. 

 

Also, maybe you could explain why a single body of water is governed by at least 3 different PHRF organizations (in which I have 3 separate and unequal ratings, all to sail around Block Island). If it seems like a fustercluck, maybe it's because it is.



#96 TimFordi550#87

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:30 PM

Mr. Lurker, 

how do you feel about the imputed handicap methods described on the USSA site? Do you see them being used at any PHRF level to try to level the ratings, or are they just a nice theoretical methodology?

 

That (the 2nd one) is an excellent question, Ryley.



#97 eerie sailor

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:55 PM

I used to have five different handicap slips for my Great Lakes Sailing.  This year I have three.  Currently working on applying for a fourth for a travel regatta. :angry:   I hate paperwork.

Also, maybe you could explain why a single body of water is governed by at least 3 different PHRF organizations (in which I have 3 separate and unequal ratings, all to sail around Block Island). If it seems like a fustercluck, maybe it's because it is.



#98 Streetwise

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:38 PM

Spar Wars, the we I referred to was myself and the other Viper owner, and in a more general sense (ratings relative to M24), the Viper fleet. I should have been more specific!

 

The reason I was throwing out a list of numbers is because the J/70 and M20 and VX One are new enough that they are hard to find reference points for, and I would like to be able to pass on data to my local Lake Champlain PHRF committee.   Since my last post, and a vacation in Mexico, i now have some PHRF pages from the 2012 book so I can look at the Viper rating. I happen to think that our Viper rating in our light wind range is a bit low. However, I also think that the M20 rating should also move higher, and I hope that the J/70 and VX One get fair ratings, as they are not listed in the 2012 book!

 

As someone trying to build a mixed fleet, I guess I am the informal sportboat fleet captain, and I want us to have a fleet where we each think we can "go for it" each race and have a chance, and in the weekend events, have a chance at overall performance against keelboats, specifically J/92, J/29 and J/80. This means that if I think the Viper should go from 102 to 108 in our region, I think the Melges 20 should also move up, because they have a tough time at 111, and we are certainly more than 3 seconds faster.

 

In reviewing the documents from US Sailing, I like how there are several reference boats, including the MH J/29, which is the closest to the pack of boats we are sailing. However, I noticed that there is not a single sportboat that is a reference boat. It is my opinion that it should currently be the Melges 24, and maybe in a few years, it should be the J/70 or Viper 640. That way we have a common sportboat to reference from.   I was hoping in this thread to hear stuff like, "a J/70 is almost always slower/faster than a J/80 or Etchells in XYZ wind".   The single most useful data point would be whether the J/70 is slower or faster than a Melges 20. I would like to be able to email my PHRF committee and say, "While it is your job to figure out the exact numbers, sportboat racers across the world think the the following boats are slower to faster in the following order."

 

We don't even yet have trophies for our sportboat fleet! We may have to purchase them ourselves! i think what our fleet is hoping for is that no one gives up and stops coming out because their rating is too depressing.

 

In my own case, in weekend races where overall results really matter, I feel like my Viper should not have to give time to a J/92,  but I am willing to have to work very hard to beat a J/29 and even give them a few seconds. Those are the boats I think I should rate in between. Clearly, the Viper should owe time to the M20 and the J/70.

 

In September, I will be able to come back to this thread with some real data, but the only thing I can be sure of at this point is that the Viper is faster than the M20, and one should rate lower and the other higher in all conditions. And it is my subjective opinion that the Viper is slower than a J/92 in light wind and faster or even with J/29, and the Melges is slower than that, and possibly even with the J/80 or close.

 

Cheers,

 

jason



#99 Streetwise

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:22 PM

Data from SMS to put boats in order:

 

0.832 Shaw 650

0.820 Shaw 650

0.804 Melges 24

0.810 Melges 24 OD

0.785 J/80

0.778 Viper 640 (a couple at at 0.777 why?)

0.772 VX One

0.736 J/70

 

I'd swear I saw a Melges 20 SMS rating the last time I looked. Maybe it was a different link than the one in this thread.



#100 Ryley

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:20 AM

 I was hoping in this thread to hear stuff like, "a J/70 is almost always slower/faster than a J/80 or Etchells in XYZ wind".   The single most useful data point would be whether the J/70 is slower or faster than a Melges 20. I would like to be able to email my PHRF committee and say, "While it is your job to figure out the exact numbers, sportboat racers across the world think the the following boats are slower to faster in the following order."

Well you're not going to hear stuff like this for a while yet, for a number of reasons, most of them because except for a few boats sailing on the same lines, the J/70 is doing OD events and building its OD street cred. Anybody who buys a J/70 to do PHRF has a few issues to overcome in most regions because they don't meet most PHRF basic requirements even for CAT 5. I'm sure the Johnstones will make sure these boats are accepted as exceptions, but until then I don't think you'll have any consistent, meaningful results to compare to, besides, "well, the boats with pros on them are definitely faster than the amateurs."






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